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View Full Version : Heroes negate the advantage of 6v6 over 8v8



Tristan Chapin
04-11-2006, 13:10
The one meaningful, gameplay-enhancing advantage that 6v6 HA had over 8v8 is ease of group formation. There are differences in build optimization, balance and such, but a 6v6 battle is not necessarily "better" than an 8v8 battle, in the NCSoft marketing sense of the word. There's no way to tell such things, or poll about it. It's just exponentially easier to form a 6-man team than an 8-man team. It was hoped that streamlining people into combat in this manner would lead to increased popularity and more new players in Heroes' Ascent. And this notion alone was why initially, 6v6 scored so much higher in the polls that Anet used to justify the switch. The Alpha forums are two camps: hardcore GvGers and hardcore PVEers. Both groups overwhelmingly back 6v6 HA, even up to this moment. Hardcore GvGers now have the opportunity to run a quick HA group or two while waiting for a full GvG roster to show up. Hardcore PVEers now have the opportunity to assemble a small guild team much, much easier.

And hardcore HAers now have the opportunity to get shafted out of their own specialty, since 48 skills is so much more restrictive on build development than 64. If we wanted streamlined groups, we'd go to the Team Arenas.

Enter the Heroes. I think the use of Heroes in HA is the answer to the prayers of people wanting to streamline 8v8 group formation. Hardcore GvGers could now bring in five or six good humans and run tweeked bots in the extra slots. Hardcore PvEers can bring a guildmate and a 6-hero lineup and be able to run that tightly-organized squad they always wanted to run. And hardcore HAers no longer get shafted out of build creativity! Everybody wins.

Wuzzman
04-11-2006, 22:01
The one meaningful, gameplay-enhancing advantage that 6v6 HA had over 8v8 is ease of group formation. There are differences in build optimization, balance and such, but a 6v6 battle is not necessarily "better" than an 8v8 battle, in the NCSoft marketing sense of the word. There's no way to tell such things, or poll about it. It's just exponentially easier to form a 6-man team than an 8-man team. It was hoped that streamlining people into combat in this manner would lead to increased popularity and more new players in Heroes' Ascent. And this notion alone was why initially, 6v6 scored so much higher in the polls that Anet used to justify the switch. The Alpha forums are two camps: hardcore GvGers and hardcore PVEers. Both groups overwhelmingly back 6v6 HA, even up to this moment. Hardcore GvGers now have the opportunity to run a quick HA group or two while waiting for a full GvG roster to show up. Hardcore PVEers now have the opportunity to assemble a small guild team much, much easier.

And hardcore HAers now have the opportunity to get shafted out of their own specialty, since 48 skills is so much more restrictive on build development than 64. If we wanted streamlined groups, we'd go to the Team Arenas.

Enter the Heroes. I think the use of Heroes in HA is the answer to the prayers of people wanting to streamline 8v8 group formation. Hardcore GvGers could now bring in five or six good humans and run tweeked bots in the extra slots. Hardcore PvEers can bring a guildmate and a 6-hero lineup and be able to run that tightly-organized squad they always wanted to run. And hardcore HAers no longer get shafted out of build creativity! Everybody wins.

well the hard core pvp'ers are pissed off. But thats irrevelent now. HA was and has been for years garbage. Hardcorers should fine something worth defending...maybe a revival of the Ta metagame would be nice.

Hard core pvp'er joining to fight to bring back the glory of TA
-wuzzman signs.

grimwold
04-11-2006, 23:36
I think tristan raises an excellent point there, well done. Regardless of gvg being tactically greater to ha, a lot of people simply enjoy ha more than gvg, me being one of them. The reasons why we prefer it are our own, its upto us what we want to play at the end of the day.

Just WHY are people that arent interested in ha and / or view it a waste of space having a say in how it works ?

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 00:37
well the hard core pvp'ers are pissed off. But thats irrevelent now. HA was and has been for years garbage. Hardcorers should fine something worth defending...maybe a revival of the Ta metagame would be nice.

Hard core pvp'er joining to fight to bring back the glory of TA
-wuzzman signs.

/slap


...That is all.

Tristan Chapin
05-11-2006, 01:24
well the hard core pvp'ers are pissed off. But thats irrevelent now. HA was and has been for years garbage.
No, and no. And no.

The GvGers and alphas are certainly happy with HA, for reasons detailed in the OP. HA was out of date before they changed elements of the map format. There was an altar map with an unnecessary ten-minute timer, a 2-team altar map, a four way that always took 35 minutes to complete, and a 1v1 match with 6 bases. And the changes made were preemptive only. It's still in flux, and the altar capping mechanics in particular are under debate. Heroes have not been in existence long enough for Anet to get a clear assessment of their role in the arenas. Heroes have only been a week.

We won't see any changes to HA until the smoke clears. And since you hate HA so much, why would you mind? In fact, what motivates you to post here if you just think it's all garbage? I agree with grimwold: "Just WHY are people that arent interested in ha and / or view it a waste of space having a say in how it works?"

Savsuds
05-11-2006, 01:52
I agree with the OP.

I like the 6v6 in HA.

I dislike facing Hero teams made up of 1-2 humans. I have even lost Halls when we totally ignored the henchy team moving in to cap at the end. That is a mistake I have yet to make again. Yes, they have the uncanny ability to interrupt 1/4 sec casts, but they do not smartly choose what is most important to interrupt or shutdown.

I know a large number of people that did not like PvP before 6v6 came about. They enjoy the relative ease of forming parties for HA now over what was there before. I know of many more people that started to try out GvGs, HA, TA then before the 6v6 change. That is only good for the game in the long run.

Many PvE people will get to the point where PvE is boring and seek out more avenues to have fun or move on to other games. I used to only PvE until December 2005. If HA is more inviting to them, how can that not help the game?

Give the meta in HA a couple weeks to stabilize, then make better informed comparisons that will better provide Anet with feedback on your views and reasoning. Myself and many others will take the input back to the Devs, or they will read it themselves and discuss/act on the suggestions. Comments like the changes suck, just do nothing to better the situation or correct anything, it just gets you ignored by the people that can make a difference.

Ayumu
05-11-2006, 02:19
The GvGers and alphas are certainly happy with HA, for reasons detailed in the OP. HA was out of date before they changed elements of the map format.Well, I don't know what GvG players or alpha testers are doing so I won't comment on that. But you're right, HoH had some faults. Ok, so it had a lot. But non of the changes on those were for the better.
There was an altar map with an unnecessary ten-minute timerEven worse, it's a 3 team map. I think I've ranted about 3 team maps before: Worst thing ever! And it's still a 3 team map, they just shortend the timer to 4 minutes which basicly removes any strategy except for "Open door, put Ghostly on Altar, interrupt". Not too good but actually the best of the changes.
a 2-team altar mapWhat's your problem with that? Everyone knew it was there and that caping first was a big plus. And except for extreme holding builds (whose existance is not the fault of this map but HoH itself) the timer rarely reached 0:00, most matches were decided in less than 5 minutes (in my experience at least). But now it's just Courtyard 2 (like it was once upon a time ...) And this eliminates one more team early on, increasing jumps later on.
a four way that always took 35 minutes to completeI've never ever seen a match that lasted more than 25 minutes and that only once. Most matches lasted about 10 minutes (my personal record without EoE bombs, henchways or resigns-on-start opponents being 4:09). Removing three teams from this map might had reduced jumps because less teams get eliminated early on but that didn't happen. Instead they changed it into another 3 team map in disguise. Did I mention I hate those?
and a 1v1 match with 6 bases.This was rarely a problem. Nearly all fights took place at the front door of one of the starting places. And a very simple solution for fixing these few fights with a team doing nothing but running would have been to add a wall. Killing the whole map was IMHO overkill. I guess they wanted to compensate for the additional team that loses at Broken Tower now.
And the changes made were preemptive only. It's still in flux, and the altar capping mechanics in particular are under debate. Heroes have not been in existence long enough for Anet to get a clear assessment of their role in the arenas. Heroes have only been a week.I'm still hoping for some very big changes. The way it's now you might as well play PvE instead of HA.
I know a large number of people that did not like PvP before 6v6 came about. They enjoy the relative ease of forming parties for HA now over what was there before. I know of many more people that started to try out GvGs, HA, TA then before the 6v6 change. That is only good for the game in the long run.I read a few people on this forum writing similar things about a lot of new people playing HA now. But: Where are they? In the American districts? They definitly aren't in the European districts, the number of those is at an all time low. Two months ago there were like 4-5 English, 4-6 French and 5-6 German districts during prime time. These days your lucky if there are 3 English, 3 Frensh and 4 German districts. And outside of these 2-3 "prime time" hours there's even less.

Where are all these new people who joined the HA community?

Savsuds
05-11-2006, 02:45
Where are all these new people who joined the HA community?

I cannot speak of the Euro zones or even the American zones during "Prime Times" since I play at odd hours, being in the +10 GMT timezone. But alliance mates, guildies, friends list people, people I know on various vents are trying out the different "PvP arenas".

Tristan is right about many GvGers mainly HA until enough guildies are online to GvG.

I did not say they are all going into HA. Some tried it out, failed miserably, but had fun fighting against different humans. I get asked how and why different people run certain builds and how they all mesh together to achieve victory. The learning process is not instantaneous, but it will pay off in time. I have told many people to practice different builds out in TA, RA, AB, etc.

I tend to only go International Districts if I HA, unless I am told to meet elsewhere.

I few months ago I used to routinely get Hall skips, due to the time zone I play in, but nowadays, I have to play through 4 or so maps before a Hall skip happens. This might be due to more Hero teams, or just easier to form teams. I have no empirical evidence to support either hypothesis.

I also have to admit loving GvG over HA, even if I have to guest with frustrating teams.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 03:40
Well, I don't know what GvG players or alpha testers are doing so I won't comment on that. But you're right, HoH had some faults. Ok, so it had a lot. But non of the changes on those were for the better.Even worse, it's a 3 team map. I think I've ranted about 3 team maps before: Worst thing ever! And it's still a 3 team map, they just shortend the timer to 4 minutes which basicly removes any strategy except for "Open door, put Ghostly on Altar, interrupt". Not too good but actually the best of the changes.What's your problem with that? Everyone knew it was there and that caping first was a big plus. And except for extreme holding builds (whose existance is not the fault of this map but HoH itself) the timer rarely reached 0:00, most matches were decided in less than 5 minutes (in my experience at least). But now it's just Courtyard 2 (like it was once upon a time ...) And this eliminates one more team early on, increasing jumps later on.I've never ever seen a match that lasted more than 25 minutes and that only once. Most matches lasted about 10 minutes (my personal record without EoE bombs, henchways or resigns-on-start opponents being 4:09). Removing three teams from this map might had reduced jumps because less teams get eliminated early on but that didn't happen. Instead they changed it into another 3 team map in disguise. Did I mention I hate those?This was rarely a problem. Nearly all fights took place at the front door of one of the starting places. And a very simple solution for fixing these few fights with a team doing nothing but running would have been to add a wall. Killing the whole map was IMHO overkill. I guess they wanted to compensate for the additional team that loses at Broken Tower now.I'm still hoping for some very big changes. The way it's now you might as well play PvE instead of HA.I read a few people on this forum writing similar things about a lot of new people playing HA now. But: Where are they? In the American districts? They definitly aren't in the European districts, the number of those is at an all time low. Two months ago there were like 4-5 English, 4-6 French and 5-6 German districts during prime time. These days your lucky if there are 3 English, 3 Frensh and 4 German districts. And outside of these 2-3 "prime time" hours there's even less.

Where are all these new people who joined the HA community?

I apologize for not having time to reply to your post right now in depth, but as for 35 min matches, and you never running into them. Have you ran holding builds..? They tend to cause long matches, taking builds generally won't. (And dear god, please tell me you at least know what these two things are. >.< - no offense intended by that though, of course.)

Ayumu
05-11-2006, 04:12
I apologize for not having time to reply to your post right now in depth, but as for 35 min matches, and you never running into them. Have you ran holding builds..? They tend to cause long matches, taking builds generally won't. (And dear god, please tell me you at least know what these two things are. >.< - no offense intended by that though, of course.)

No, we never used holding builds because those are extremly boring (in your opinion at least). We usually enjoyed the way to the hall a lot more than the hall itself so we had all the utility skills needed to arrive there and cap once but holding more than once or twice was rare.

But of course I still remember fighting those holding builds on deathmatch maps ... it was boring and took some time but rarly 15 minutes or more. And what's the chance of facing two holding builds on the same map? ... Wait, don't answer that, bloodspike was way too popular at some time. And if you're playing a holding build yourself ... ok, that might take a while, didn't consider that. (And don't worry, I might not be of the true tombs community, but I started a year ago, not a week ago.)

Anyway, I'm still advertising my original point: Removing 2 teams from this map might reduce jumps on the later maps.

Djinn Effer
05-11-2006, 06:07
No, we never used holding builds because those are extremly boring (in your opinion at least). We usually enjoyed the way to the hall a lot more than the hall itself so we had all the utility skills needed to arrive there and cap once but holding more than once or twice was rare.

But of course I still remember fighting those holding builds on deathmatch maps ... it was boring and took some time but rarly 15 minutes or more. And what's the chance of facing two holding builds on the same map? ... Wait, don't answer that, bloodspike was way too popular at some time. And if you're playing a holding build yourself ... ok, that might take a while, didn't consider that. (And don't worry, I might not be of the true tombs community, but I started a year ago, not a week ago.)

Anyway, I'm still advertising my original point: Removing 2 teams from this map might reduce jumps on the later maps.

Well, after for playing that long I'm sure you understand some people no longer so much play for the fun of it, but more so for the raw fame of it. The end goal of HA is to hold halls, since this is the quickest way to make substantially large amounts of fame. For example: One day I made probably somewhere around 2.4k fame in one run, by holding halls. Back in my K A R M A days. Of course, if I told you how you'd think we were cheap little ****s. I don't know if anyone remembers this but a long time ago a Ghostly had to be on a certain spot of the alter to cap, and if he couldn't get there he wouldn't even try to cap. So, what we did was have a Warrior with things like Dolyak Signet, Obsidian Flesh, etc stay in that exact spot of the alter and he'd be all enchanted up... Point is, he never died.. We held all day long regularly. It was quite cheap. But, the point I'm getting at is.. Most people spend what 6 months? A year? Getting that much fame - I made it in 12 hours.

Something to think about. End result over enjoyment of play. Of course, I actually enjoyed it cause I was Monking and I actually did have stuff to do the entire time, I was nearly the only one that had something to do the entire time. Oh and, we arn't exactly the only ones that ever did that... Much much later, probably even to the time of when pRp was around.. Pravus Phasmatis [Prav] was still abusing that to hold. Of course they didn't have their build designed for it, they just used it when they had to. Their build was like.. Interrupt-way, from what I remember.

But back not too long ago, if you were running a build like one of Brehon's early choking gas ones. 1 Assassin, 2x choking gas, 3x monks, 1x rit, 1x spirit spammer ranger (I think that was the build...), and come up another team like yours.. Thats going to be a long, long match. (That is if both teams are about the same skill level.)

shardfenix
06-11-2006, 06:57
by "advantage to 6v6"...what do you mean? You lose team members, firepower, defense, positioning...I don't think there are any advantages to smaller teams.

Tristan Chapin
06-11-2006, 10:29
by "advantage to 6v6"...what do you mean? You lose team members, firepower, defense, positioning...I don't think there are any advantages to smaller teams.

Not to the team itself, but the whole environment. Easier group formation. Check the OP.

Also I don't think you really lose firepower, defense, or positioning relative to your opponents in 6v6. All these things are kept; what gets lost is the flavor. Flavor might be stuff like Arcane Languor and exhausting assault. Ritualist offensive spirits. Scourge Healing. Build gurus don't touch that stuff anymore and instead hold onto basic, utility slots like the shock warrior and the two obligatory monks.

lifeinthefridge
09-11-2006, 22:52
Imo 6v6 was a lazy way for Anet not to make a new Arena, HA should really not have been touched imo, but since 6v6 was ok during the double fame weekend,I thought id give it a shot. 6v6 when it first came out was ok... it was cool seeing the map changes and stuff but... couple weeks later its really starting to get on my badside. It was bad enough to start seeing 2 people 4 henchies now I cant go one run without running into it. Now im not saying that this isn t what Anet intended but, Ha has really lost that feeling to it of fun and glory for winning a battle or at least to me..My suggestion really would be to revert HA back to 8v8 and bring back burial mounds, but to keep broken the way it is and revert scarred earth back to the way it was. Courtyard being 4 minutes along with halls should both be moved up to 6 minutes also imo. Also if anet doesnt decide to revert the number of players back.. I at least ask them to make it so you need at least 4 real people in your team before you can take heros. Or make another 6v6 arena and leave ha alone ...
just my 2 cents