The Dervish - weak armor = obsolete character?

[Mathius Clarkus]

and by that i mean for pvp mostly. Max dervish armor i heard is 70 - for a close combat unit that basically means death. The damage you will take will be huge compared to what you can dish out. It won't be so bad in pve because you have the scyth which can take out several people at once, but in pvp that will be useless as people spreadout and dont bunch up so much.
So my question to you is - will the dervish become obsolete in pvp and second choice in pve (especially with the nurfs) or can you see benefits beyond the avatars?

[Xunlai Agent]

go to Obs Mode they are being used as support and melee and it's working just fine...

[Goldfish God]

apparently not everyone got the memo, but Dervish are "health tanks" as opposed to "armour tanks" (e.g. warriors) or "dodge/evade tanks" (e.g. rangers with whirling defense).

Basically they survive by rapid self-healing mixed in with their more offensive skills, including skills and combos which do both (e.g. Victorious Sweep heals you if you strike a target with less health, Vital Boon heals on end + self-enchantment removal attack like Pious Assault). Even Mysticism provides some reasonable self-healing with a rapid enchantment turn-over.

They can do some armour tanking (balth avatar etc) and evade tanking (mirage cloak), though not as easily as some others.

[Fade Into Shadow]

Im afraid I have to agree with Kali. Dervish's have been working fine in the pvp side of things. I have been quite successful in RA, and have watched some guilds dominate others using dervish strategies in GvG. If your thinking about using them with the same tactics as a warrior Mathius of course that wont work. However with a little finesse a dervish can definitely be a contender.

[ThaAlchemy]

ppl ranted about assassins in the same way. "why do i always die when i run up and try to tank" "I have a melee weapon" "wtf!?!?!?!"

If armor is your concern, grab your war, go buy some knights, and stop crying.

[richo]

ppl ranted about assassins in the same way. "why do i always die when i run up and try to tank" "I have a melee weapon" "wtf!?!?!?!"

If armor is your concern, grab your war, go buy some knights, and stop crying.

or just use the elite form called avatar of balthazar and start tanking with 110 AL, and if you want life just use Avatar of Melandru to recieve +200 max health:smiley:

play a class use the skills make some combinations and then you dont need to waste precious forum space eh?

[Cruel Angel]

Aura of Balthazar + Conviction + Vital Boon = 134 Armor and +70 something health at just 9 or 10 Earth Prayers. Only as good for the 60 seconds or so the Avatar is on, but you shouldn't need much more than that. If you want, throw in Mystic Regen too and get +6 Health regen on top of that.

[I Orca I]

well 80 armour tends to do me fine, 70 +10 while enchanted. Then a backupheal when i drop below 50% from intervention and a 137 heal whenever i need it from cancelling boon when its required. Throw in victorious sweep and well you shouldnt have much trouble staying alive while cutting them down.

God I love reapers sweep in pvp, its like a super final thrust without the wait time of building adrenaline :D

[thehulkuk]

Never played my current Derv in PvP but in PVE she rocks just fine. I send her into the middle of most things and only a few times did i gether killed thogh I havent tried soloing with her yet. I made sure her mysticism is high to get the benefits of health and energy when an enchantment ends and just use vital boon with mystic vigor only if need be for health. However my hero and healer henchies ar particularly good too andmaybe that helps. I love my derv tho. Its all about the combinations.

[DarkHarbinger]

Mystic Regeneration + lots of enchantments = average +12 health regeneration for me.

Vow of Strength and other damage boosters = average 70 damage a hit.

Conviction = +24 armour while enchanted

Taking down Dervish after Dervish using god forms in single combat in RA = priceless.


Or in otherwords if built right the low armour can be overcome, health boosting/gaining enchantments keep you alive and the damage output of a dervish can be rediculous if built right.

Now if only I could learn to be better and keep my enchantments constantly up WHILE fighting instead of forgetting and letting Mystic Regeneration drop.

[Glory POA]

Windwalker's armor inscriptions are amazing since I usually have 3-4 enchants on my bar and then if a monk uses vig spirit, seed or breeze you are preposerously proteced both through Armor and health. Add to that the Avatar forms and Dervishes are just solid in so many different ways.

I find Dervishes are actually a more complex melee class to deal with than the Warrior:- our endure pain equivolent, vital boon, is exceptional, and honestly I welcome shatter builds.

The dervish is actualy extemely damaging to the Necromancer and Mesmer class. Truely incredible, I'm overwhelmingly pleased with it.

[MStarfire]

Avatar of Balthazar + Kinetic Armor + Armor of Earth + Dervish Base Armor + Windwalker Insignias = 40 + 56 + 48 + 70 + 15 = 229 armor. Tell me again how I have a problem with armor?

Kinetic armor's not hard to keep up with a D/E. Throw in some cheap fast recharging enchantments and spells and you're a god. I can tank night and day if I want.

The problem is, the Dervish has been available for what, a week? And idiots can't get past Consulate Docks with them and all you hear is OMG MY DARVISH SUXX THEY R SO LMAE!!! How long did it take for people to realize that assassins were awesome in PvP? Wasn't it like 5 months?

Some people have no patience to figure things out. Or maybe no skill?

[Laughing Man]

I find Dervish to be an awesome melee character. Though..the Dervish Hero tends to die more often..somehow I can't find a good build for her. So I just set her to defense with the ranged attackers and let her handle any mobs that get past me.

[The Avatar]

Avatar of Balthazar + Kinetic Armor + Armor of Earth + Dervish Base Armor + Windwalker Insignias = 40 + 56 + 48 + 70 + 15 = 229 armor. Tell me again how I have a problem with armor?


the problem with this is that u cant kill thing, people just run away from u and u got no decent dmg.

Glory POA: And no, dervish wont take out necromancer/mesmer as good as assassin. (pretty much all attackers without interrupt having trouble with them cuz thats what they're good for) And since dervish build most likely run heavy enchantments, a simple descarte enchantment then u will take a big chunk of dmg.

[Longasc]

As some people already pointed out: Go test the Dervish.

They have strong health and healing abilities and both their enchantments and weapon damage are powerful.

Without going into detail, both Paragon an Dervish are more likely to find a place in PvE and PvP than both Assassin and Ritualist have right now.

[The Avatar]

Without going into detail, both Paragon an Dervish are more likely to find a place in PvE and PvP than both Assassin and Ritualist have right now.

well ya, cuz they're the new classes.

[TLLOTS]

Glory POA: And no, dervish wont take out necromancer/mesmer as good as assassin. (pretty much all attackers without interrupt having trouble with them cuz thats what they're good for) And since dervish build most likely run heavy enchantments, a simple descarte enchantment then u will take a big chunk of dmg.
Actually I fully expect PvP Dervishes to run about 3 enchantments maximum, most of which won't be on all the time. The real damage will be coming from their scythe mastery attacks. Simply stripping their enchantments will therefore have minimal effect.

[The Avatar]

Actually I fully expect PvP Dervishes to run about 3 enchantments maximum, most of which won't be on all the time. The real damage will be coming from their scythe mastery attacks. Simply stripping their enchantments will therefore have minimal effect.

descarte/defile enchantments dont strip enchantments away.

no, u have to consider that ur teammate monk/ritualist will also stick his enchantment on u as well. so in general speaking is about 4-5 if u already run 3 enchantments on urself.

The necormancer's elite skill pain of disenchantment + enchantment removal spells (rend enchantment will be really good here cuz it's not even monk's) or the mesmer shatter enchantment will do the dmg that u wont be able to recover quickly.

EDIT: o ya, scythe mastery is a lot less powerful if u all ur enchantments get stripped.

[Viti Ligo]

I am just lvl 8 with my dervish, and already I have noticed the potential that she has... I admit I have died occasionally, but never intended to go for survivor with her, it's more fun than you don't have to be over cautious. With dervish I can deal damage and keep myself alive considerably well, I think. Also like the AoE dmg of scythe.

[Kaleban]

descarte/defile enchantments dont strip enchantments away.

no, u have to consider that ur teammate monk/ritualist will also stick his enchantment on u as well. so in general speaking is about 4-5 if u already run 3 enchantments on urself.

The necormancer's elite skill pain of disenchantment + enchantment removal spells (rend enchantment will be really good here cuz it's not even monk's) or the mesmer shatter enchantment will do the dmg that u wont be able to recover quickly.

EDIT: o ya, scythe mastery is a lot less powerful if u all ur enchantments get stripped.

Vow of Strength + Normal Attack = caster pwnage.

O ya, I forgot, every single mesmer and necromancer in PvP is completely designed to be anti-enchant. Its not as if people actually play anything besides Dervish/Necro/Mes is it?

Wait. You mean to say there are other character classes? That are powerful and don't rely on enchants? Oh what are we to do? That's right, skill, counter-skill, counter-counter-skill, etc. My current D/Mo build can get hit by an de-enchant or strip enchant, and be nearly as effective, and still re-enchant 5 seconds later.

There are counters for everything, the beauty is you won't face them all the time, and while a build designed to spread warrior hate may be very effective, it may not be nearly as effective against a Dervish. There are skills that COUNT on you not hitting, or utilize the natural de-enchant skills of the Dervish to inflict massive PBAoE.

I'll boil it down. U R t3h nooblar.

[Longasc]

well ya, cuz they're the new classes.

More because the classes are strong, effective and well designed for both PvE and PvP. I admit my PvE focus here, and both Paragon and Dervish simply outperform Ritualist and Assassin while being much more accessible.

This sounds quite Anti-Rit/Assassin, and for sure some convinced Ritualist or Assassin player will tell me how great they are actually, but let's just wait and see, I would bet these two classes will still be popular when Assassin/Ritualist and the Faction War are forgotten.

[qwertyabyssjelle]

The Dervish, besides it's armor level, can tank about everything you can put out alot of damage quick and even dis-enchants can make you cause damage. Sure you need to manage your damage and armor but in AoB is often enough to solo anything or close to solo if you really wanne make sure you damage take a prot/heal monk combo to manage your health.

The biggest weekness I found is elemental damage it tends to get a dervish hard, but working on countering that to at the moment.

[TLLOTS]

descarte/defile enchantments dont strip enchantments away.

You're quite right, I misread what you wrote. That said, my point still stands.


no, u have to consider that ur teammate monk/ritualist will also stick his enchantment on u as well. so in general speaking is about 4-5 if u already run 3 enchantments on urself.

No, you'll be looking at having roughly 1 - 2 enchantments up frequently, and that last one (if you even have a third) will more likely be reserved for specific circumstances.

As for Monks casting enchantments on you. Sure that'll happen some times when you're getting hammered, but then it's really true of any class. You may be able to pull off Desecrate Enchantments while that's happening and may even get a kill out of it (though not solely as a result of it), but no team is going to lug that around solely for that purpose.


The necormancer's elite skill pain of disenchantment + enchantment removal spells (rend enchantment will be really good here cuz it's not even monk's) or the mesmer shatter enchantment will do the dmg that u wont be able to recover quickly.

This may be true of RA, but in high level PvP a shatter enchantment is hardly crippling. The rest is far too situational to be of much use.


EDIT: o ya, scythe mastery is a lot less powerful if u all ur enchantments get stripped.
The loss of enchantments is hardly crippling to your scythe mastery skills. Sure if your attack skills consist of Lyssa's Assault, Twin Moon Sweep and Mystic Sweep you'll feel it... but that's a pretty damn stupid set of attack skills anyway. Dervishes get some very good attack skills which have no enchantment requirement attached, you may want to give them a look and get away from your enchantment dependance.

[Kael]

I don't know why people complain.

Avatar of Dwayna is the fscking juggernaut when coupled with RoF and protective spirit- (I think that's the name of the one that prevents you from taking over 10% damage) Spam another 5 mana enchant - vital boon- and you simply won't die as long as the Avatar lasts.

I tested this in RA- 3 people couldn't bring me down until the avatar ran out, and I took out two of the opposing team. (I took out a third earlier while the rest of my party sucked and got wiped)

Good luck to you on your builds :) But I would hardly say dervish is obsolete. It situationally can tank better than wammo.

[thehulkuk]

Im working on making my derv/necro a disenchanter and interrupter whilst stil dealing massive damage. For some reason no one sems to have picked up on the benefits of a necro secondary to a dervish.

[Kaleban]

I don't know why people complain.

Avatar of Dwayna is the fscking juggernaut when coupled with RoF and protective spirit- (I think that's the name of the one that prevents you from taking over 10% damage) Spam another 5 mana enchant - vital boon- and you simply won't die as long as the Avatar lasts.

I tested this in RA- 3 people couldn't bring me down until the avatar ran out, and I took out two of the opposing team. (I took out a third earlier while the rest of my party sucked and got wiped)

Good luck to you on your builds :) But I would hardly say dervish is obsolete. It situationally can tank better than wammo.

I've been using the Dwayna/PS/RoF build for quite some time now, I've even spread the word to other dervish players in game. I'm at the last mission now, and a lot of players I've mentioned it to are now spamming "Dwayna Prot Tank LFG" lol.

Personally, I run at 15 Mysticism, 12 Scythe and 8 Protection. I use Faithful Intervention as well for an extra slice of protection. I'll see about writing it up on GuildWiki if it ever starts working again.

[Servant of Kali]

Well necro secondary i've seen used in PvP and someone posted suggestions in this board too.

I like Dervish because of many possible builds you can come up with. It has interesting elites, even though someone said before NF how elites r boring which i disagree with. In any case, testing will be fun.

Kaleban - http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=428475
:)

[Kaleban]

Lol omfg Kali, that is almost my exact build, except with my PvE focus, I use Rebirth instead of Rez Sig, and Faithful Intervention instead of Mend Ailment, although with all the condition infliction going on in the later missions, it might not be such a bad idea.

Great minds think alike? Or a fluke lol?

[Fade Into Shadow]

I've been using the Dwayna/PS/RoF build for quite some time now, I've even spread the word to other dervish players in game. I'm at the last mission now, and a lot of players I've mentioned it to are now spamming "Dwayna Prot Tank LFG" lol.

Personally, I run at 15 Mysticism, 12 Scythe and 8 Protection. I use Faithful Intervention as well for an extra slice of protection. I'll see about writing it up on GuildWiki if it ever starts working again.

Indeed, ive set up with the same, 15, 12 and 8, works very efficently. Now we just need to convince others of this, as in certain missions (ala gate of madness) it seems impossible to get a group as dervish yet warriors have much less trouble.

[Servant of Kali]

Lol omfg Kali, that is almost my exact build, except with my PvE focus, I use Rebirth instead of Rez Sig, and Faithful Intervention instead of Mend Ailment

lol to be honest, i've been playing in PvE with Faithful Intervention too :) Mending Touch was there for RA :) But then agian, it could be useful in PvE too, since usually im ok with health, not sure if i need FI.

Rebirth i didnt use simply because i didnt buy it yet, otherwise i'd say Rebirth is better than Rez of course in PvE. All in all i'd say we use the same builds :)

[Kaleban]

Indeed, ive set up with the same, 15, 12 and 8, works very efficently. Now we just need to convince others of this, as in certain missions (ala gate of madness) it seems impossible to get a group as dervish yet warriors have much less trouble.

Tru dat. I did the gate of madness ir whatever mission last night (2nd to last mish) with this build, and basically, not to be too snide I saved the day. Half the party died, I rezzed them all, tanked the whole way through. By the time we got to Shiro/Lich I think I had 2% DP, everyone else had 30% or more.

By being uber tank, I enabled my blood/curse Master of Whispers to Spoil Victor Shiro, while I hacked down the Lich. The entire time the warrior "tank" was taking a dirt nap...

Never fear though, once the Dervish goes mainstream, we're going to see parties who won't go WITHOUT one, trust me.

[GrimShade]

Funy I said this would happen, people complaining about the dervish low armor...

Odd, mine is still a survivor and going strong. You are not a Warrior, don't play like a warrior, realise you have enchants to keep you alive, and manage those.

[shadowhand]

I had my hopes for survivor crushed by that "mind watching the monument while I get my stuff?" challenge quest... But then, I should have known better - I just got reckless.

My dervish is currently in the later stages of the nightfall campaign and sometimes I'm amazed at what she can take on. She's frequently the last person standing when the entire party is wiped by ambushes, giant mob rushes and just plain bad luck.

Yes, she does die sometimes, but, to be honest, my warrior would've taken dirt naps much sooner than my dervish in those situations. Hmm... I wonder how a dervish would deal with the hordes of afflicted in Factions? Quite well, I suspect.

[Kaleban]

Yeah, with the first character of a new campaign, I don't bother with the Survivor title, since you're exploring the new and sort of expect to die. My Assassin in Factions has something like 3000 deaths, many of which came from Raisu chest runs prior to them randomizing chests.

My Rit though is almost to Indomitable Survivor, thanks to knowing about spawns and such. I'm sure that once I get through NF with my Dervish, my Paragon could likely get the title. Although those later missions are killer.

[Glory POA]

descarte/defile enchantments dont strip enchantments away.

no, u have to consider that ur teammate monk/ritualist will also stick his enchantment on u as well. so in general speaking is about 4-5 if u already run 3 enchantments on urself.

The necormancer's elite skill pain of disenchantment + enchantment removal spells (rend enchantment will be really good here cuz it's not even monk's) or the mesmer shatter enchantment will do the dmg that u wont be able to recover quickly.

EDIT: o ya, scythe mastery is a lot less powerful if u all ur enchantments get stripped.


Well since several dervish skills provide you with health when shattered that's actually not all that much of a problem, and if you are at close quarters with anybody during the shatter with for ie, aura of thorns or heart of holy flame equipped any shatter build could easily do more harm than good to the mesmer or necromancer's own team.

Loads of scythe mastery skills still offer pretty massive spikes even when enchantments are not active, so you just have to chose carefully. Soime of them remove enchants from foes, others spike up regardless.

Failing that, Lyssa's Aura, hex breaker etc could all be used by great effect by a dervish.

[MStarfire]

the problem with this is that u cant kill thing, people just run away from u and u got no decent dmg.


How do you figure I have no decent damage when I never mentioned a thing about my attack skills?

I'm assuming you're taking one look at Armor of Earth and thinking "speed reduction". Well at 9 Earth Magic that's what, 46% slower? And Balth Avatar is 33% faster, so I'm not losing much speed. Even when I don't run balth avatar people can't see specifically WHAT enchants I'm running unless they HAPPEN to target me across the field and see. Usually what ends up happening is warriors will hack away at me and wonder why they're doing about 7 damage per hit. By the time they figure it out, they're usually dead.

Skills aren't meant to work alone. Try using them together.