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View Full Version : The state of Ritualist in GvG after NF and new skill updates



Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 13:20
Heya.

I feel like discussing a bit the current state of the affairs in as unbiased way as possible. Here i mostly have in mind GvG, as i feel that skills are (or should be) balanced primary for GvG.

While Rt's did get those buffs in one of the updates, i feel that with NF the balance of power once again shifted away from them. Eles are made stronger. Fire eles in particular hurt the spirits; before fire was known to me as slower recharge long cast line, which is now 1-sec cast 2-sec recharge line (requiring your team to have domination mesmer, which im honestly tired of). Dervishes seems to be quite popular as well. Scythe attacks also hurt spirits more (sure you spread but there's still higher chance of hitting both spirit and someone else), plus some AoE attacks.

A lot of NF skills that Rt's got seemed nice to me. Which means, potentially nice. Yet, in practice it doesnt seem they add much, that is, enabled Rt's to penetrate more the GvG scene. I understand that spirits in GvG always had slight mobility problems, but im not the only one who used spirits in GvG on this forum, successfuly. Yet now it's much more difficult with the above mentioned reasons.

So, i am curious as to does anyone (Pat?) use Rt builds in GvG anymore, because in observer mode i honestly dont see a single Rt anymore. Sure im not standing in observer whole day, but whenever i check the games there's not a single Rt.

How to adapt Rt's to current metagame? I'll be completely honest and say that i stopped entirely using Rt and am using Dervish which seems much stronger and less stressful and less situational.


There is one more thing i'd like to point out. Sure this is not a clear indicator, it could be just popularity contest.. but look at this:

Assassin (19 Viewing)
Dervish (53 Viewing)
Elementalist (14 Viewing)
Mesmer (29 Viewing)
Monk (13 Viewing)
Necromancer (19 Viewing)
Paragon (40 Viewing)
Ranger (39 Viewing)
Ritualist (5 Viewing)
Warrior (19 Viewing)

..while i never claimed that the most popular class is always the best (otherwise Mending warriors would rule) - this certainly IS a cause for concern.

Princess eirika
06-11-2006, 13:52
Well, I saw plently of ritualist in Elona today so...not really worried.

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 14:03
And i saw plenty of Assassins in Factions, which doesnt mean 99% of them didnt suck, or at least were underpowered.

PvE is different, PvE has nothing to do with skill balancing. If people can play totally underpowered Assassin in Factions then they can play anything. It's obvious that for PvE roleplaying and style is more important than skill balancing, but this is not so for PvP. If Mending warrior with next to no dmg and sucky skillbar can finish Prophecies then i bet i could do it with no skills at all, just having a decent team.

So let's focus on PvP aka Skill-Balancing-Area aka You-Die-If-You-Use-Mending-Against-Equal-Team.

Hella Good
06-11-2006, 14:11
Rit isnt popular mostly because it's very hard to play and since they took the press keys 1-7 build apart (Spirit Spamming for the unable to read between the lines ones out there), Rit fell out of favor. Plus Rits are non-standard, we don't do cool things like balley dancing with a dagger in each hand; on the contrary, we do rather morbid things like hold the ashes of dead people, or summon blue transparent things that don't even look like Casper. To be honest with you, I couldn't care less if the masses wanna play Rit or no, I am proud and content to be able to play one of the most powerful and challenging professions in the game and do so well.

Btw Rt/P is fun. Great synergy between the 2 profs.

Akirai Annuvil
06-11-2006, 14:14
You seem a bit frustrated Servant of Kali chill...

Looking at the NF skills (haven't unlocked many of them yet), they all seem to push the Rit away from spirits and towards other buffing skills (and some strange things like Spirit Strength :) which imo, is an improvement.

Also you don't see a lot of people in observer mode with rits because most people don't have rit as their primary pve character and thus don't have too many rit skills unlocked yet (like the powerful party buffing skills), so it's also sort of hard to use them in GvG/HoH since they just lack the new skills and iversity of many of the already richly imported classes.

I'd say wait a week or two and then all those people Princess Eirika saw will have their rit skills unlocked and show what great skill combinations rits now have in the new metagame :D

Hida Ryushi
06-11-2006, 15:28
I did notice my Rit did get a bit hammered in regards to Energy costs of things, like Recuperation jumping from 15 to 25, but the overall effect it has is still the same. Powerful healing skills, especially with Ghostmirror Light and Recovery. Not very often does a party member die with my Rit around. Luckily, my build involving Signet of Spirits keeps my Energy quite healthy.

bellissima
06-11-2006, 15:32
When Rits were being used regularly in 8v8, it was generally in a defensive way due to the static positioning of spirits. Now we have Paragons who are mobile, can boost a party's defenses, output pressure and have naturally high AL all at once. That's not to say that Rits are any less viable today than they were before, but the builds that got buffed are not ones that really ever saw a lot of GvG time.

I wouldn't say that there aren't ever any Rits on obs mode. [SoW] was running an offensive spirit Rit versus [Te] just last night and they did very well with it.

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 15:32
Rit isnt popular mostly because it's very hard to play

That's a poor excuse. Mesmer and Assassin are hard to play too, and still 10x more popular than Rt's.


I am proud and content to be able to play one of the most powerful and challenging professions in the game and do so well.

But that's exactly the problem i have. I understand that Rt's are more situational, they require team builds to support them and vice versa. The problem i have with Rt's is that even if you have team build revolving around Rt's it doesnt really seem to pay off at this moment. It's not rewarding enough. IMO, of course, i will test more, and i will look around at different builds, but this is just the current impression i have so im asking around if anyone can dispell my urban myths :)

For instance, im bad in math, so if anyone can do calculations comparing the old channeling vs new searing flames build, and all that. Of course i'll take into account other stuff like aoe's, paragon backline etc. But overall at least raw dmg of individual char might be nice.


Btw Rt/P is fun. Great synergy between the 2 profs.

Which one? Sorry didnt try yet :) I could use some tips n tricks atm.


Looking at the NF skills (haven't unlocked many of them yet), they all seem to push the Rit away from spirits and towards other buffing skills

That's all ok, but how does it work in practice? That's what im interested in :) If someone could demonstrate in GvG how well that works, cool. So far until NF Rt's works nicely for me. Right now adaptation is needed so i need some tips :)


Also you don't see a lot of people in observer mode with rits because most people don't have rit as their primary pve character and thus don't have too many rit skills unlocked yet

That's not true at all. ALL, and i mean ALL top100 guild players should in my oppinion, if they are any decent at all, have ALL skills unlocked.

Saying how WM doesnt play Rt's because they dont have skills unlocked is just silly. I can understand that guild ranked #967 doesnt have it unlocked, but that's about it. If the build is strong, you WILL unlock skills for it.

When Factions came out it took me very little time to unlock all skills. Now in NF with 2x more Faction gain, i can unlock tons with just little PvP play.

Sorry but my guildies PvP only a bit in the evenings when they aint doing PvE. Mostly it's just GvG 2-3 days in a week. And they have no problems having Rt skills unlocked. How come a top200 guilds have problems, if top 500 or top300 guilds dont? It's beyond me.


I'd say wait a week or two and then all those people Princess Eirika saw will have their rit skills unlocked and show what great skill combinations rits now have in the new metagame :D

So you're telling me that in 6 months PvPers have not been able to unlock 2 professions?

That's just wow, i'd resign GW immediatly and start playing Tetris instead.


I wouldn't say that there aren't ever any Rits on obs mode. [SoW] was running an offensive spirit Rit versus [Te] just last night and they did very well with it.

I think Veni Vidi Vici (#90 atm) runs 1 offensive spammer too. So, it's correct, not true that no one runs it - but - the amount of Rt's i see in GvG is much lower than any other class. I dont think that's quite 'balanced', but i may be wrong :) Rt's are much more complicated to run usually, at least most builds, and the reward... IMO atm it's easier to take Ele and Paragon, something like that. Much less complicated and at least equally good.

I was always a fan of effort and reward system. If the class is simple, make it good, but also make it slightly worse than a well-played complicated class.

Geishe
06-11-2006, 16:26
I personally think Ritualists will still hold a big part in NF. I'm sure people will still want Rit Lords in PvE (I was rit lord for most of NF, and I'm completed now.)

And for PvP, Ritualists are PERFECT pairs with Paragons.

Vocal was Sogolon + Defensive Shouts + Ritual Lord = defence out of the ordinary.

Mending Refrain + recuperation = constant +7 regen

Cautery Signet + Resilient Weapon = what are conditions?

Ritualists are definetely not as popular, but they can still work in the hands of dedicated players. Make sure you play with a guild that is open to new and different builds, and I'm sure you'll have fun doing it as well as possible inventions!

Yes, we might not be as mobile in support, we might not heal as well as monks (according to the majority of players) but, meh, we can still have fun doing what we can... and if we do well, we can just rub it on other peoples faces.

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 16:38
That's great, but i'd like you to demonstrate those skills to me, in practice, if you dont mind.

Vocal of Sogolon means you cant use adrenaline skills, which in theory might not be bad but i'd rather cause dmg with spear plus cast 'free' adrenaline skills, plus energy ones.

The thing is, im sure i'll hear tons of good ideas about how this and that skill is good, but cmon, go ahead and let me watch your guild in GvG, or at least tell me how it went. Do 5-10 GvG matches and let me know how it went. If it was great, sure, i'll adapt and somehow use Rt's in my builds. Atm im really not stimulated :)

Khaunshar
06-11-2006, 17:26
I believe a lot of the dislike towards Ritualists in PvP is that they are an extremely powerful defense, and its generally considered boring or lame to run an extreme defense build, prolonging the match or wearing down your opponent. Fast, quick games are what people are enjoying more.

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 17:43
No that's not it. They complained about people turtling and waiting for VoD, which most Rt teams did before - but - that was before many updates. There are more skills than Shelter/Union, there's channeling, resto (which doesnt equal extreme defense) etc, atm i see here and there offensive spirit spammer (rarely).. and overall Rt's are extinct species in GvG. You meet one here and there but far less than anyone else.

Also, Championships are not about fast quick games but about winning. Still, you're not going to see Rt's there, except very very rarely atm. I might be wrong tho. Oh and i dont count last 'fun' ladder (not that many used Rt there either) where half of the teams used henchies.

Xunlai Agent
06-11-2006, 17:57
NF didn't weaken Rits but the position they filled almost exclusively can now be filled with more attractive alternatives but I havent really spent that much time with the new skills so I cant make such a valid judgement. I think Rits will come back and people will experiment with them. We might see them in future when more people have unlocked all their skills (yes not everyone has done this yet).

BunnyLord
06-11-2006, 19:32
There are so many reasons why the ritualists don't get used that much in GvG. As one pointed out earlier, mobility is very important in GvG/PvP. Ritualist suffer because spirits are stationary and some of them that have potential have puny ranges, like Preservation. Speaking of ranges, the ranges of skills that req. to be near the spirit needs to be addressed. You have to be very close to a spirit if you want the benefit. Spirit Light weapon could have been great but the short range cripples it. They need to increase the the requirement range of those skills and others if they really want them to be used.

Paragons overshadowed the Rits because they're more mobile and can act faster to spikes. Incoming is a great anti-spike that beats the Ritlord-Shelter combo which cost too much. Mending Refrain beats Recuperation because it can't be removed/killed and cost way less + it can be up forever aslong as you're shouts and chants are ending.

I really hope they keep improving the ritualist.

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 21:46
I'd just like to address the movement issue. While indeed it is an issue, it's not a make-or-break issue. Im saying this as someone who has played Rt builds in GvG before, and when you adapt your team strategy you can win much better teams. If a guild ranked top600 suddenly becomes top300 after using Rt-focused build (such as we used) without any voice comm (long story) - then it's obvious that the lack of movement isnt such a huge deal (otherwise we would lose). Now, i understand that top100 GvG is slightly different but let's focus right now on _any_ GvG :)

So, what im saying is that a strategy which worked before decently, does not work anymore due to reasons i mentioned in the beginning. In other words, requires adaptation.

However, when you need to drastically adapt to a NF situation, you start wondering, are you limiting yourself more and more, without getting any reward in return? Like, sure i have less movement, but it should pay off. However, if both teams are stuck at same place around flag stand, and you're still losing (even though there's no need for movement, in this hypothetic situation) to eles and paragons... then you start wondering even more - is it worth it, what am i gaining, and why shouldnt i switch to eles and paragons and dervishes as well. You start wondering "perhaps we can make counters", but there's so much to counter with less and less flexibility. Soon your team build is turning out to be something entirely different, and you wonder what on earth Rt's are doing in it, since they dont even fit the team build anymore.


This is the reason why im addressing this issue. I want to know if it pays off to work on counters to metagame, or totally forget the blatantly forsaken Rt profession by ANet and move on to new professions.

Geishe
06-11-2006, 22:06
That's great, but i'd like you to demonstrate those skills to me, in practice, if you dont mind.

Vocal of Sogolon means you cant use adrenaline skills, which in theory might not be bad but i'd rather cause dmg with spear plus cast 'free' adrenaline skills, plus energy ones.

The thing is, im sure i'll hear tons of good ideas about how this and that skill is good, but cmon, go ahead and let me watch your guild in GvG, or at least tell me how it went. Do 5-10 GvG matches and let me know how it went. If it was great, sure, i'll adapt and somehow use Rt's in my builds. Atm im really not stimulated :)

Okay, after a few gvg matches, i 'll report back to you.

Just a suggestion : Vocal was Sogolon + Incoming + Quickening Zephyr + Shelter/Union or Recuperation.

A wall.

If you're not stimulated, work on it till you either give up or succeed. Don't wait for anyone on these boards to tell you if ritualists can still be played or not... try it yourself.

Ashin
06-11-2006, 22:20
I just stopped by this board to get an update on the state of Rits since NF, since I haven't been playing mine, and have been in a PvE mode for a while. I planned to make a thread but was happy to see that Kali had already done so.

I never GvG'd, so I mostly come at this from the theory point of view, or from arena fighting, which is quite different.

However I do want to say that, playing my Paragon, I do believe Ritualist balance is out-of-whack at the moment. Actually, even comparing the post-nerf ritual lord to a protection monk, I really questioned whether they had nerfed us too hard.. particularly Shelter. But we got lots of other buffs so all is well and good in my mind.

The reason I mention prot monks is because I'm trying to decide if Paragon defense is overpowered, or if Rit defense is now underpowered. So I need a third class to give me a better view on a.net's mindset. Looking at it all, I have concluded Rit's are underpowered at the moment.

As pointed out, Recuperation has a HUGE cost, has stationary/range issues, and can be killed easily. Comparing it to Mending Refrain, it is hard to make a compelling case in favor of the Rit. Likewise as soon as I saw the Incoming! skill, I immediately thought "wow.. rits got the short end of the stick after all."

I think, if I'm just looking at sheer amount of damage that can be negated, Ritualist is going to come out on top every time. But when I consider that spirits can be destroyed, and that they are immobile and have limited range, I really question it. In PvE you don't see these problems as problems, but in PvP they are. Then I throw on top of that how vulnerable to being interrupted these rituals are compared to other options.. yes you can build your skillbar to afford interrupt protection, but that's another skill taken up just to make the darn thing work in the first place (not to mention that we can't get good anti-interrupt protection from our primary profession..)

At first I thought a.net was trying to nerf "protection" in general, and that made sense to me actually, but after seeing Paragon I can't support that theory anymore.

Offense spirits were made even stronger, but as Kali said between fire ele buffs and dervs, I'm not sure if those spirits can survive long enough to justify building a relatively immobile team. Channeling was buffed, and by all accounts is quite nice, but Dervs make me wonder if anyone is going to favor "nuking" again, to be honest. Already I had the sense that physical damage is favored over the idea of a fragile nuker of some kind.

That leaves resto, and honestly I believe that is the Rit's strongest suit in PvP right now. A big theme of NF was enchants, and I believe the Rit's lack of reliance on enchants is going to remain a noteworthy feature of their healing style. We also got some new weapon buffs, and again, those are noteworthy and offer distinct advantages. Another big theme in NF seems to be conditions, and this is also another resto Rit strongpoint.

My two cents anyway.

(BTW Kali I can't agree with your assertion that the only balance consideration from the game should be GvG.. not all GW players do that you know. :p)

Servant of Kali
06-11-2006, 22:42
Okay, after a few gvg matches, i 'll report back to you.


Ok you do that :)


If you're not stimulated, work on it till you either give up or succeed. Don't wait for anyone on these boards to tell you if ritualists can still be played or not... try it yourself.

The problem is exactly that, i usually use my own build whenever i can, but atm im just so tired and drained. Making builds which include Rt(s) is much more demanding and when metagame changes it's much more difficult to adapt with Rt than other professions IMO. But this could just be me. Or maybe as i said im just too tired and too thrilled with Dervish to even bother with complications of Rt without any significant rewards.


owever I do want to say that, playing my Paragon, I do believe Ritualist balance is out-of-whack at the moment.

Eh i think i have the same problem. After playing Dervish i found out lots of underused skill combinations which i think are overpowered. Dervish absolutely thrills me. It allows for more freedom in team building than Rt IMO. Rt was underpower a lot for 5 months (RLord was only used in GvG) and now with NF i feel it's at best equal to some other combos BUT lacking any edge i can think of. On the other hand, i feel both Paragon and Dervish to have some overpowered skills, to offer a lot of combinations, and moreover i feel that people are not familiar with these 2 professions which grants you a suprise factor (and dont underestimate suprise factor).


But when I consider that spirits can be destroyed, and that they are immobile and have limited range, I really question it.

Plus the armor compared to Paragon.


but Dervs make me wonder if anyone is going to favor "nuking" again, to be honest.

Well actually Searing Flames is quite popular in GvG. Now, with that build there's even less stimulation to run Channeling. Eles backed up by Paragon can spam those skills from what i've seen quite easily. Channeling had the advantage of spamming skills fast, but really, now even fire ele can d othat. I still need someone to do numbers (as i said im bad at that), but it's quite obvious channeling is lacking simply by competition being buffed.


(BTW Kali I can't agree with your assertion that the only balance consideration from the game should be GvG.. not all GW players do that you know. :p)

Im not saying "all" but most skills really are balanced for GvG. Certainly i can name a lot of skills which are not balanced for GvG, but when looking at the - profession - itself, then it needs to be a choice in GvG. And i dont mean a very-specializaed-no-one-uses-it choice.

Akirai Annuvil
06-11-2006, 23:07
Back to my post you sorta misinterpreted it almost entirely.


That's not true at all. ALL, and i mean ALL top100 guild players should in my oppinion, if they are any decent at all, have ALL skills unlocked.

No they don't I was talking about NF skills, and it's quite simple that they do NOT have all NF skills unlocked. Most of them probably wont have a rit as primary pve characters, while most of them will be xploring pve (and getting new skills) with their new characters thus getting dervish and paragon skills, or with their mains, who are normally Prophecies classes (most people playing top 100 go way back, to the start of prophs and their main is mostly their first char), so there are far less people who use Ritualist (and to a lesser extent Assassins, however because they're so damn cool with teleportation, they turned into some people's main or important alts).

also as you yourself said it's more difficult and time-consuming to develop a build around ritualists. And by replacing them with other classes you might lose out on something but it at least takes less time. Most players, also high rank want to try out the new skills and how they mix, what's their specialty etc.
And yes it frankly is easier to do that without ritualist, so since thye want to quickly enter a GvG with a decent new build they won't be using Ritualist. Give it a month, people will then have the new skills, take the time to fiddle with the builds and they will be used.

Like you said:
"I don't want to give up my adrenaline gain as a paragon for Vocal Was sogolon." Although *I* would if I was support, else I'd still love a rit who is able to cast Weapon of fury on me, and say, on a fellow warrior or second paragon, while being able to nuke well with Channeling, and offering a few spirits to hide behind.

Just because in the FIRST WEEK OF NIGHTFALL people didn't immediately start using new rit power ups etc, doesn't mean that they are useless. It just means that just like before, they are more troublesome.

bellissima
06-11-2006, 23:18
Akirai, I'm disappointed you chose to resort to name-calling to get your point across. Calling other posters idiots is a sure way to earn youself a ban around here. Enjoy your time off; the ban will be lifted in 24 hours.

Nobleman Azure
07-11-2006, 00:29
I am sorry to say but paragons can easily replace almost anything a rt can do. Damage? Spear. Party Healing? Motiv. Offensive boost? Command. Pretty much the only thing they cannot mimic is Restoration ritualists ability of direct healing.

Im not worried though, seems like anet is giving rts ability to do ANYTHING with the introduction of these new skills.

Besides, its all hype. To the common player who has no class affiliation/yet, wouldnt they try the new classes out first?

Servant of Kali
07-11-2006, 00:33
I didnt say they are 'useless', i was debating on whether they are worth the effort anymore, since the energy invested into making Rt is far bigger than energy invested in let's say straightforward ele build.

"Just because in the FIRST WEEK OF NIGHTFALL people didn't immediately start using new rit power ups etc"

Mmm and what power-ups would that be?

So let me ask this - the fact that Rits in Factions were heavily underused (except RLord spam in the beginning) - does that also have something to do with the fact that not many people had it unlocked? After all, we waited 6 months till Nightfall, so during those 6 months what is your explanation of the situation?

Now, im not saying no one used them, but now that i think about it, out of last 30 GvGs i did, i dont remember a single Rt in any of them. Im sure they didnt unlock the skills, perhaps in 2 yrs, judging the priority of unlocking that people have (and somehow Rt skills seem to be unlocked the last i guess, which also says something).

Aksharack
07-11-2006, 02:16
I think Servant of Kali is pointing out a problem for Ritualists that is really hurting the class right now.

Playing a ritualist in the game required changing the approach of the whole team with the end result of.. well... all I can say is most ritualists fights take forever. One offensive Spirit build listed here is called Checkmate, and I can attest that that is exactally how it is, complete with the slow and ponderous game style. Spirits are uncontrollable, and attack spirits are unreliable, can't focus fire, can't do anything you want them to do.

The problem with nightfall skills rather than making Ritualists really good at something we now have alot of skills that, well.. Take some of the weapon based skills. Weapon of Remedy, for example. A sort of combination healing/attack you can cast on someone. Powerful? yes. Requiring a *ton* of micromanagement? also yes Like most rt spells, extremely passive? Also yes. A Ritulaist won't really heal or kill anyone with this spell. its just plain pressure. Anet seems to have some notion in their head of a dedicated weaponmaster rt, but then they put all the different weapons in different spells line, making such a proposition difficult. How could such a weapon based build even be implemented? Same for vocal was sogolon. Most paragon stuff doesn't benefit that much from lengthened duration anyway, although maybe something useful will be found. Spirit strength? funky, but it certainly doesn't help a class in trouble.

Ritualists have never been popular, and right now we are becoming a dying breed. We were designed to be good at holding areas, but right now even in places like HA we are simply never seen.

Patccmoi
07-11-2006, 03:03
Well, we stopped our 3 Rt build in GvG because Offensive Spirits started acting stupid and not hitting half the time.

I think the defensive aspects, as other said, is now easily made up by a more mobile Paragon. The nuking aspect of Channeling Rt is still there and quite powerful, but Eles have similar thing now and people are USED to Eles, so they will go for Eles instead. Resto Rt never got popular even when they were at least as good as Healing Monks with spirits around because people are used to monk.

The way i see it is quite simple : people aren't used to Rt because they never used Rt (out of Rt Lord at least) and they manage to win without them (and why shouldn't they? There is 10 prof with 8 slots available, and a chapter-specific one should definitely not be 'required' in a team). So now they have more option, why should they go and explore the Rt first when they didn't see their potential in the first place?

Most good teams didn't look at Rt before much (and btw keep in mind that iQ won last tournament using a Rt in most games) and now that they have more options to play with i don't see at all why they would. It's not because Rt aren't good, it's because Rt require more complex team builds to achieve their potential. People are used to 'stand-alone' characters. And it's not bad in itself. We had a very successful Rt build but it was killed by bugs so now we moved to other stuff. I like Rt a lot though and plan to use them in the future again. Personally i didn't have lots of time with NF yet (i just moved, too me all last week and i just got internet back today) and since i had specific builds i wanted to test i didn't have time to unlock any Rt stuff (and plz stop that all top 100 guilds should have everything unlocked. It's 1 week into NF, if Rt isn't their priority, they WON'T have the skills unlocked. And i don't see why it would be their priority if it wasn't before)

There is a couple of things that i think can make the meta eventually with NF Rt skills:

1) Weapon of Fury

Given this can be used as /Rt though, but a Rt primary can easily keep it on 2 people at once. This Weapon Spell is EXTREMELY powerful overall for any warrior or Paragon. A warrior with a Zealous Weapon and Weapon of Fury in IAS has like 8 pips of energy regen while hitting and double adrenal gain!

2) Weapon of Remedy + Vengeful Weapon + Wielder's Remedy + Renewing Memories

Makes a pretty powerful build overall. You can spam these 2 weapon spells like crazy, doing both massive life steal, healing and condition removal all around. Can be quite efficient in a pressure build since you remove conditions at the same time as you pressure the other team even more.

3) Vocal was Sogolon Shouter

I think this can be really poweful in its own way, especially in a QZ environment like some1 mentioned. Look at something like 14 Restoration-12 Command and use Incoming! (9s of 50% damage is huge protection), Never Surrender! (+4regen to everyone below 75% for 15s with 20s recharge), Make Haste!, Stand Your Ground! (permanent +24AL when not moving, which means whenever someone is knocked or casting a spell he has +24AL), etc. Those are all 5E too. You can also use Bladeturn Refrain easily so that any axe/sword/scythe that isn't turned Elemental will be met by +34AL (and +24AL on top if the guy isn't moving, and 50% damage from incoming! half the time... i mean let's face it, it won't do anything at all). And this can't be done by a P/Rt because 2 pips of regen won't cut it.

4) Destructive was Glaive Channeler

If the bug remain, i expect this to be used eventually since you can throw the Ashes to someone. I mean, imagine a Starburst Ele holding the Ashes doing Starburst-Flameburst-drop for around 350 damage in a 1.5s window to Nearby AOE (you can throw Ancestral's Rage on him too to pretty much kill anything Adjacent to him). Even if the bug doesn't remain, i think this can have some pretty nice uses still.

Give it time before reacting like that. It's 1 week in NF and Rt never were popular. They won't suddenly become popular because new classes were added!

Sir Arthcos
07-11-2006, 04:42
Yes, I've always tended to avoid offensive spirits as they take up time... which isn't good when PuGs are designed for maximium speed. So, Rits must cross out their hopes for spirits in a NORMAL PuG and get something they need. Weapon spells have a lot of bright outlook right now. Also, I think one of the most underused skills is Feast of Souls, anti-pressure skill all around. The thing I love about Rits are that their builds aren't straightfoward and you can do some combos with other spellcaster professions.

Devosion
07-11-2006, 05:17
I think it might be a little to early to start casting judgements as to where excatly the NF skills leave Rt's now. Im sure there are those exclusively dedicated to their Rit and have already picked up the majority of the new skills and elites who are busy trying out something new. In PvP the rit has always been, to me, a very versatile character. I love playing anti-pressure builds in AB, and in straight PvP I like to overload with a powerful channeler or a weapon build that buffs and heals. Sure we have the Paragon, who is more mobile at getting things done, but the way I see it is its an opportunity to make our Ritualists more mobile with that skill line. Just as well the Paragon doesnt supply the kind of anti-pressure a dedicated ritualist can add.

So as of the moment I really cant say how I see Ritualists in PvP, for me I always enjoyed getting into the thick of it. Though im sure we'll see some new ideas coming forth, and im pretty sure some of them will consist of a Rt/P and Vocal was Sogalon.

Servant of Kali
07-11-2006, 11:41
We were designed to be good at holding areas, but right now even in places like HA we are simply never seen.

OK, i'd like to clear this myth. Yes, Rt is good at holding areas under some circumstances:
* That spirits dont get bugged much and keep attacking. Even before some spirits used to stop attacking, or never start until their duration was half over. Lately there have been reports of even worse spirit AI behavior, which i think was fixed but not 100% sure. This means that theoretical spirit dmg is just that - theoretical. In practice it's never met actually.
* That spirits have clear line of sight. There are tons of guild halls where this is a minor issue, and some where it's a bit.. bigger issue. I fully understand that someone who isnt experienced with Rt's wont be able to take advantage of LOS, but there are also people who know that you can take cover (nothing revolutionary, quite common among better players). You can hide behind the nearest wall, a pillar, or anything like that. Spirits _will_ keep shooting at you but not hitting. Now, this is also connected with the first issue - you can, if you know how to, abuse spirit AI by going out of their range, and coming back. In some situations this seems to "block" spirit(s), sometimes permanently sometimes just for a while.

So, when they work ideally, spirits are good.

The other problem with "holding an area" is the buff to fire eles now (which i mentioned) and dervish scythe+aoe attacks. They dont even need to directly attack spirits, but they will still die 'accidentally'. While it's easy to say "spread them", in practice it's not that simple. If there's just one spirit spammer that's all OK, but if you have Channeler and Resto (who, usually need to be near the spirit), you have to watch out not to be too near, or too far, and kite properly. This is a lot of micromanagement, with no reward atm.

That's my oppinion after playing with them quite a lot. Spirits IMO did pay off before otherwise i wouldnt use them. I liked them even with occasional bugs, but atm i dont find them as viable.


and plz stop that all top 100 guilds should have everything unlocked. It's 1 week into NF

Misunderstood. I was more like referring to Factions, and the fact that after 4-5-6 months Rt still was heavily underused. As for NF ofc they dont have it unlocked. I have PvE Dervish and not even that i have unlocked :)

And ty for those constructive proposals, yes those skills might be interesting but still dunno how it would work in practice. It's worth trying i guess.


In PvP the rit has always been, to me, a very versatile character. I love playing anti-pressure builds in AB

AB isnt PvP arena. It's a PvE area with some PvP. If i have to make it in percentage i'd say it's at best 30% PvP with 70% PvE. I already explained it in the other forum so too lazy here. In short, AB has mostly PvE rewards, in AB you win by killing NPCs, running, and capping shrines, _and_ avoiding PvPing. PvPing in AB usually results in defeat. I've played AB for quite a while and usually whenever some team on our side went pvping instead of capping shrines and killing npcs - we lost.

Zaishen Challenge IMO is higher level of "PvP" than AB. AB is something i do when im tired and too lazy to think for PvP :)

Hella Good
07-11-2006, 20:42
I think the fact that Rt and P are so much alike is a blessing, not a curse. The 2 professions synergize very well. Spirit's Strength combined with a Wep Spell and P attack skills can result in significant damage dealing. Combining Spirits with Shouts and Chants, on the other hand, can provide amazing party-wide support. I am excited to try out the 2 professions in tandem.

As for Rits popularity, part of it is the fact that Rt is probably the hardest profession to play out of all professions currently in the game. It takes a lot of good timing and positioning decisions. Nevertheless, I think Rt are extremely powerful.

Servant of Kali
07-11-2006, 21:19
I dont buy that "hard to play" thing. If a profession is so hard to play that even the best players have less benefit playing ritualist than semi-good ele players do when playing some cheap gimmick build - then something is obviously wrong.


Btw yup, some Paragon skills seem to affect spirits as well. Im not sure if all of them really affect spirits but according to skill description they should.

Some of these skills would be:
Anthem of Envy
"Stand Your Ground!"
etc

If this works, Stand Your Ground can increase the armor of spirits by 50%!

Still, i've seen a lot of people taking Spiritual Pain to GvG, because this skill is nice even when there are no spirits around IMO.

Hella Good
07-11-2006, 23:05
SP is a concern. It is a very powerful skill. But it shouldn't be much of an issue, because a Me is very unlikely to be spamming SP at a spirit. I've done it on my Me and I can tell you it is way too heavy on the nrg to do it. I think Unnatural is more of a concern. SP will most likely be used in a spike, not to kill spirits. But US... it's a common part of SP spiking... Still, this should only matter if the focus of the build is Spirits. And as I've said on many occasions, Rits are best when they diversify their builds, not when they focus on Spirit spamming. 1-2 Spirits, 1-2 Wep spells, 1-2 Item spells, 1-2 Ench, 1-2 pure spells works much better than Spirit spamming. Consider my fav PvE build:

1- Mend B&S
2- Soothing Memories
3- Res Wep
4- Mighty Was Vorizun
5- Union
6- Soul Twisting (E)
7- Flesh of My Flesh
8- OPEN

WingspanTT
07-11-2006, 23:19
Spiritual Pain > Rits... just try it some time. Like Unnatural Sig on crack

Geishe
08-11-2006, 01:40
Spiritual Pain > Rits... just try it some time. Like Unnatural Sig on crack

If only all ritualists used spirits, it would.

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 02:29
Geishe - that's great. The amount of Ritualists in GvG is near zero. The amount of Ritualists in GvG, who dont use spirits, is exactly zero.


Now, few things which Pat proposed are OK, in theory. Still, let's face it, we can debate on whether something will change or not (it might), we can discuss about all great Rt builds in GvG.. yet in the end practice shows that Rt's are still extinct species (in GvG), played only by few, and even then it's one single lone Rt at most.

Hella Good
08-11-2006, 03:20
I just watched a top 50 guild roll a Rit spike that owned in GvG... I know it's rare but it's not impossible. And you don't need to SPAM Spirits to use Spirits effectively... Union + Soul Twisting is a great combo.

You must understand tho, GvG has only 6 slots available, because 2 are ALWAYS taken by Monks. For the other 6 slots Rits have to compete with physicals (Wars, Rangers, Paragons, and sometimes Ganker Sins), and support casters (Eles, Mesmers, Necros). The most common balanced builds now have a Paragon where a Rit would've previously been used. I think to adapt Rits need to either switch to dealing damage or merge with Paragons in a support character.

Rits cannot replace Warriors and other physicals, cannot replace Mesmers and Eles as support casters, and clearly cannot replace Monks. So it's a tough fight for that extra slot in a team build between a Rit, Necro, and a Paragon. And Rits simply cannot beat Paragon's ability to dish out damage, provide e-management, and provide pressure through party-wide Conditions spam; and at the same time, Rits cannot beat Necros ability to hate out physicals, or add pressure through Taint and Nova.

Again, damage dealing in a Rit spike, or merge with Paragon seems to be the 2 options for Rits right now.

Geishe
08-11-2006, 04:10
Geishe - that's great. The amount of Ritualists in GvG is near zero. The amount of Ritualists in GvG, who dont use spirits, is exactly zero.



You really must stop saying thats great to me, I know I'm great, you don't have to be my second ego -_-.

Yes, the amount of ritualists in gvg is near zero, the amount of people playing ritualists seem to also be getting closer and closer to that number. If you really really think that ritualists aren't worthy to play anymore, please feel free to go play something else... no one here to stop you.

If you believe that by telling everyone else that ritualists are extinct, they are unusable, a waste of time, by all means feel free to do that too... all I have to say is, GW, to me at least, is a game where I ENJOY playing, not FORCED to play a character because its useful or not. I can hardly care if it isn't as useful as any other professions out there, I can hardly care if you think Ritualists are dying out. I will continue to play my ritualist, and if it works out it'll work out... if not, I'll live with it and continue playing.

As Hella Good just reported, there are still possiblities on using Ritualists. Yes, yes practicalities come first, but its always fun to imagine and be conceptual. Also like Hella Good stated, Merging with Paragons is a GREAT way to play support. I already gave you a few examples... but like you said, lets put it in real practise.

Ritualists are what you make of it... heck GW is what you make of it... if your guild solely plays for the sake of PvP/GvG/HoH... then Ritualists might be a poor choice for you (dur), but its always great to be the underdog.

And with my incredible "great" sixth sense, I can already predict your response.

"Thats Great"

Yes, I know I suck.

Hlub Koj
08-11-2006, 06:33
I have notice that there seems to be less and less ritualist around :(
I've never even seen a ritualist in NF

NeferJackal
08-11-2006, 11:10
Ive seen a few male ritualists in Nightfall with ancient armor and going for the mummy king look. Pretty hawt, and matches well with the looks of a forgotten staff.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 11:40
I was thinking about remaking rit or making new paragon.. I love gvg but I guess it's waste of time to make rit for pvp now.. oh well.. maybe ANet will do something in next balance..

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 11:44
If you really really think that ritualists aren't worthy to play anymore, please feel free to go play something else...

That's all ok, but i more prefer to search for different options. So maybe the current builds dont fit all that great anymore, and maybe there are some potentially great new ones. Hence the thread, to find out potentially good adapted builds, or simply conclude something has to change.

BTW i actually dont even play Rt anymore in PvP. I have no reason to, Dervish gives me more power, which is easier to use and more versatile.


I can hardly care if it isn't as useful as any other professions out there

But i do care, hence the discussion. I dont care about eles so u wont see me complaining "omg eles underpowered" :)
If any profession isnt as useful it means i cant play it in a competitive environment, or if i play it im handicapping myself. I like to win, just as anyone else (even though im not sore loser) so i dont find handicapping attractice.


Yes, yes practicalities come first, but its always fun to imagine and be conceptual.

I like reality checks. It can be fun to imagine and be conceptual, but no one became rich by imagining he is rich.


ps: It's great that you have good imagination :) Your girl will like it im sure :P

NeferJackal
08-11-2006, 11:50
Ritualists are decent, but currently they are outshined by Paragons in the area of mass protection. Where paragons have the edge in sheer mobility.

And for damage, yesterday I had fun making a silly bomberman build using the bugged Destructive Was Glaive. Arcane Echoing it and handing bombs out to teammates in RA. Or just running them myself. It has a HUGE area of effect compared to Cruel Was Daoshen. I just wish the damage was higher as it is kind of underwhelming because it's lightning damage.

Another build I tried out, was vampiric healer, spamming weapon of remedy and vengeful weapon. I had multiple assasins and warriors not paying attention and killing themselves on me or my teamates.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 12:59
Ok.. I want only to add.. weapon of fury makes wonders with paragons and warriors.. why ppl don't use it in pvp? o_O

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 13:29
Because you're sacrificing 1 character for 1 skill (weapon of fury)? Have you ever thought of listing 7 other skills which would go with Weapon of Fury? It's not easy. It's in Channeling, which means you need to invest attributes in Channeling only for WoF, or you use other skills from channeling which mostly dont go without spirits, or ashes, or this or that. In other words, for me it was too tricky to place WoF in some decent build. Im not saying others cant do it, im just saying why _i_ dont consider using WoF. Still, WoF can be kept on 2 allies at atrb15, and Restoration doesnt require badly an elite.. so maybe some combo can be made. But unless your team uses spirits, designing a build is tough.

Akirai Annuvil
08-11-2006, 14:09
Another build I tried out, was vampiric healer, spamming weapon of remedy and vengeful weapon. I had multiple assasins and warriors not paying attention and killing themselves on me or my teamates.

Scary I thought of trying out such a build too Oo so it did work out well for you? I thi nk it's cool since they're damage almost rivals that of the two touch skills but you can heal anyone you want and heal conditions ^.^


Again, damage dealing in a Rit spike, or merge with Paragon seems to be the 2 options for Rits right now.

Hmm to me it seems that a Rit/Paragon is maybe the ultimate pressure reliever... the main problem would be hexes, since the only 'obvious' counter is hex breaker aria, which is pretty good, but requires adrenaline which most rits wont have, but on the other hadn Vocal was Sogolon does enhance it's duration.

Also a quick WoF build a friend of mine tried recently in HA (don't know if it works as well in TA/GvG but it at least worked well there)

Vengeful Weapon
Nightmare Weapon
Weapon of Fury {E}
Recovery
Vocal Was Sogolon
"Stand Your Ground!"
"Never Surrender!"
Res Sig

The Paragon brought Hex Breaker Aria which charged lightning fast, and they didn't encounter that many anti-attacking hexes (lots of blind but that didn't last long) His attributes were something like 15 channeling, 10 command and 11 resto.
If you really want a condition remover you could throw out the shouts and put those point in spawning and grab Wielder's remedy; then you could also switch out recovery for recup and have two skill slots open (soothing memories seems a given; maybe Wielder's Strike for some damage? I'd go for MB&S/Spirit Light, personally but I like healing :3)

oh and can't resist ><

Geishe -- that's great!

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 14:59
HA is a bad example of what works and what not, so let's please focus on GvG, which was my intention in the first place. If a person can win HoH nowdays with heroes/henchies, then you cant really expect me to use HA as an example of good builds, especially since IWAY was the most popular one for centuries. In other words, let's focus on highend PvP which is GvG.

I can tell you for one, quickly peeking at the build, that Recovery wouldnt last long against teams who relied on conditions.

Elfbowmaster
08-11-2006, 15:52
One thing I don't understand why is the Ritualist not being popular or much played a problem? Ok its hard to get into groups sometimes but (for me) it isn't that hard. I like it when I'm the only Ritualist in a group or in a town. You can really suprise people since many PUG's never seen a ritualist (proper one) in action.

Let's put it this way, we all know the saying: 'know your enemy' or ' keep your friends close and your enemies closer'. When many people don't understand the rit class we have an advantage here.

Funny thing happened last week, I was casting some spirit's, a guy came to me and asked 'what are those'. Lol he never saw a spirit before..

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 16:06
Elfbowmaster - please read the thread. We are talking about GvG here. It's easy to abuse AI, you can do it with just about any profession. Yes Rt is strong in PvE, but that doesnt mean much to me if im playing GvG, which this thread is about.

Akirai Annuvil
08-11-2006, 16:34
*Shrugs* I dont really care whether the Rit is useful in GvG, HA, RA, TA or PvE as long as I can play him and enjoy him and have a reasonably effective build. Which I still find possible.

In other words, I find the state of Ritualists in NF to be fine. I also disagree that skills should be balanced around GvG so I give my opinion about the entire game. Which is not GvG only.

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 17:04
But this isnt a thread where 10 parachuters express oppinions about how good Rt is because you can farm Maatu Keep.

If you dont care whether Rt is useful in GvG then i ask again - pls dont spam the thread. I dont go to HA board and discuss HA because i simply dont care. If TA board discusses Rampage as One, im not going to that board and say "oh stop complaining, my Rt is great, join me in PvE".

You find the state of ritualist in NF fine simply because PvE is just that, PvE. Million of people use Mending and find its fine, because in PvE you can finish the game without A SINGLE SKILL ON YOUR SKILLBAR. So, if you can finish PvE without a single skill, then why would Mending or any skill discussion be of any interest for PvEr? It is not, therefore when we talk about balancing of classes, skills, tactics, then it's obviously not PvE topic because PvE has nothing of those (well it has, but nothing really worthwile).

Yes i also play PvE and let me tell you something, this game has the easiest PvE of probably all the games i've played. And i dont mean just fantasy games, i mean any games.


I also disagree that skills should be balanced around GvG

Heaven forbid it should be balanced for PvE, we would get the same kind of PvP as in Diablo, where everyone used one of 10 cookie cutters, all skills and attributes being almost exactly the same.

There is a good reason why skills are balanced for PvP in 99% cases. The reason being that in PvE no one really cares about skill balancing. PvE is not "adapt or die" environment, you're fighting static AI and with game being on "easy" difficulty you can kill static AI with just about anything. PvP on the other hand is about having "the edge". You dont have the edge, you die. As simple as that. If there was a huge gap between professions in PvE, with some being much stronger and some being much weaker, people would still play those weak professions because of roleplaying factors, and because you can still beat PvE since it's easy. PvP is different, if some profession is entirely weak, it will be extinct in any form of high-end PvP (which doesnt include RA). That's the reason it's much better to balance skils for PvP. Not that everyone has to agree on it, as much as you dont need to agree with the law of gravity, but it's still there, working great.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 17:05
Some of us would like to pvp with rits and we can't do that (noone wants us.. they prefer every other class).. so we can't have fun with this class.. >.>

bellissima
08-11-2006, 17:21
Okay Kali, clearly the posters in this forum are not up to your standards. You've sneered at every suggestion without even trying anything out yourself and been generally condescending to the majority of posters in this thread.

I will move this to the GvG forum in an attempt to find you an audience that might give you some satisfaction on this topic. Beyond that, I don't know what else to tell you. If you feel your old builds are underpowered and don't want to try any of the new things people are suggesting here, it seems the best recourse is for you just to move on to another class for a while.

Parker Bsb
08-11-2006, 17:31
Kali - watch SoW. They run a spirit spammer and they seemed to be moving up the ladder at a pretty fast speed 2 nights ago.

Elfbowmaster
08-11-2006, 18:19
Elfbowmaster - please read the thread. We are talking about GvG here. It's easy to abuse AI, you can do it with just about any profession. Yes Rt is strong in PvE, but that doesnt mean much to me if im playing GvG, which this thread is about.

U can run a Rit in GVG just fine. U dont need spirits to be succesfull, and even if u go spirits, depending on a map there are tons of strategic places to put spirits up for a good attack. It generates confusion in enemy ranks. Also take draw spirit with u if they move out of your spiritrange attack.

Tons of ways to use a rit in GvG, just try things out and practice. Ill recommend a more straightforward class like an ele if you think that's more effective.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 18:25
Elfbowmaster if you think that rit's are so effective in gvg then why we see 1 rit every 100 gvgs? == Ppl use a profession if they can find a use for it.. but unluckly rit's don't have it's place in pvp. They can do lots of things but overall 99% of guilds will choose paragon/monk/ele over rit..

Hmm I just found out I posted in this thread.. o_O heh.. didn't know it was moved from rit forum =]

Servant of Kali
08-11-2006, 18:36
Okay Kali, clearly the posters in this forum are not up to your standards. You've sneered at every suggestion without even trying anything out yourself and been generally condescending to the majority of posters in this thread.

Oh please that's just BS, Pattcmoi was the ONLY one who even made some decent suggestions which btw i did take into account (such as Vocal was Sogolon for instance).

What do you want me to say at other posters, when half of them agreed, and those who disagreed didnt even make any constructive replies? Yes i should put on fake smile, and act like im in a religious cult. Errr, how bout no.

Wet One
08-11-2006, 18:45
If you think that rit's are so effective in gvg then why we see 1 rit every 100 gvgs? == Ppl use a profession if they can find a use for it.. but unluckly rit's don't have it's place in pvp. They can do lots of things but overall 99% of guilds will choose paragon/monk/ele

In my experience of gvg and ritualists, this is what i have found....

Most teams that have rits (or what most people affectionatly call spirit Sh#$tters) seem to run them in gvg for damage reduction/defense. The are good @ the stand for damage mitigation, they are good @ VoD cause they can save your NPC's from a cat (which i still dont understand... why should party get spirit effects and not partywie enchants like aegis)

But the flaw that i have seen in most of these builds is that they rely too heavily on the rit for defense, and once you can wipe that rit (similar to a bonder) the team wipes in short order

Rits work great in certain situations... under NR/Tranq as healing rits (see BC's build last season) etc etc...

However, i personaly dislike rits... and dont like running build with them because they are not as mobile as a paragon... their spirits are easy for an ele to wipe and then what do you have? A whole lot of nothing. Paragons have many advantage to rits in the fact that their shouts cant be stripped, the only way to stop a paragon is to kill it, and with all that armor its a pain in the butt....

I think that the reason most teams dont run rits in gvg is pretty simple... Most people i know really dont like rits, dont like playing them, dont like playing against them... etc.. So unless there is someone in the guild pushing for them to run one they would rather just run something else uless the playing conditions really demand one (and there are not a ton of situations that absolutely demant a rit)

jthompson
08-11-2006, 19:18
Rt works great for me...havn't had a problem. All the warrior and assassins go in and I'm right behind them while they are attacking i lay spirits all around, a great offense in that stand point. :grin:

But over all yes rt are known for there defense and will probably always be know for that.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 19:25
Rt works great for me...havn't had a problem. All the warrior and assassins go in and I'm right behind them while they are attacking i lay spirits all around, a great offense in that stand point. :grin:

But over all yes rt are known for there defense and will probably always be know for that.

Wrong.. Rit's used to be known as defensive chars. Now after nerfing Shelter/recu etc. (most ppl know only those skills from rits) they are known as being sub-bar class, almost useless.. the only thing we can do it try to prove them wrong.. =/ Only best guilds can show that rit's aren't uselsss. they have to take them into gvg but as we can see.. noone of the more known guilds is using rits.

an Sun
08-11-2006, 19:32
I played rit since release of factions.. stoped 2 months ago. I wrote earlire that I was thinking about remaking rit (afterall they got some skill balances meantime), didn't I? If not then sorry.. my mistake.

Edit:
I love rits, they are a great class and they aren't weaker monks/eles but they can't find their place in pvp. If you want a healer char you take monk, if you want a nuker you take ele (those new fire eles). Rit's had one unique role.. rit lord spirit spammers but anet nerfed that (it was overpowered although I think they overnerfed it) so what we have? ANet tried to give other options for rits with nighfall, they added some cool weapon spells. Unluckly most weapon spells are in different atrribute lines so it's hard to make a good weapon master especially since now we have paragons which can protect whole team.
Rit's aren't weak class but we can't find a place for them in pvp. Every other class has at least 1 build for gvg and we? We had rit lords ...

Patccmoi
08-11-2006, 21:06
We tested some with Weapon of Fury (not in GvG yet) and it has huge potential overall. Even a W/R in Weapon of Fury can use Rampage as One and other energy skills (though not too much, but you can use like Rampage as One and Bull's Strike and/or Prot Strike, rest better be adrenal), it's quite good on sword warrior for Barbarous Slash-Gash and other adrenal attack. It also allows Thumpers to do MUCH more pressure with their pet, but since pets tend to die a freaking lot i'm not sure atm how good it is. The current meta is too AOE heavy for it imo. Finally it's really incredible on Paragons.

I'm looking to fit one in GvG, likely a Channeling/Resto hybrid (like 15-14) concentrating on weapon spells (looking mostly at WoFury + Warmonger from Channeling and Resilient or Warding from Resto) and 5E nukes/heals more than spirits (might still use some like Life or Destruction/Gaze of Fury).

The Vengeful/Remedy weapon spammers are really a decent build overall with 0 reliance on spirits. Seems to have really nice potential in a pressure build as a mix of pressure and defense/condition control. Weapon of Remedy kinda owns Searing Flame too since you remove Burning by throwing it (with Wielder's Remedy), they reburn again, then they hurt and most of the damage is life stolen and the burning ends again from Remedy procing, so they lose tons of energy not doing much at all.

And i think that some people pointed really good points here by saying that Rts aren't used because most teams DON'T like Rt. They saw Rt as Rt Lord spammer making games last forever for no reason and they never really got past that idea, and they just see Rt as immobile as if you had to stand still by your spirits to do anything.

For the defensive aspect though Paragon is really likely to replace Rt. They already did really and i gotta say they do a freaking good job at it because they're incredibly hard to take down and will add pressure with just auto-attacks.

ZiegDivine
08-11-2006, 21:34
No they don't I was talking about NF skills, and it's quite simple that they do NOT have all NF skills unlocked.

Do you know any top 100 guilds? BC, last season was top 50 (I believe) their leader was UAX for NF during the two preview events. He didn't need to have NF at all, he was able to do that during the 2 weekends. Obviously, you're wrong here.

Kali, imo paragon > ritualist in terms on defense. That's why nobody brings one anymore. People don't bring both because that's too much defense (4 characters devoted entirely to defense means the only hope you have of winning a match is at VoD) and a paragon is more mobile and more versatile than a ritualist.

A channeling rit is an option that was never really explored, except by some innovative people (Pat), and didn't/doesn't get much love in top GvG.

Parker Bsb
08-11-2006, 21:48
See what makes a paragon better than a ritualist is a bunch of little things.
1) Paragons cast times are pretty short - hard to interrupt and still offers good defence
2) Command gives you both decent pressure/spike assist skills AND good defensive skills
3) Higher AL and less attribute intensive (for spirits to work you need to invest fairly heavily in 2 lines).

I'm not saying ritualists are not relevant in GvG because as I said before I've seen them used to pretty good effect recently (SoW's ritlord and PAT's nuker) however it's evident that rit's are easier to shutdown than a paragon which is why IMO you'll see them quite infrequently.

Tozen
08-11-2006, 21:52
IMHO, the only reason why rits aren't all that useful right now is because as a previous poster mentioned, paragons can do their job a lot easier.

Ritualists have decent skills, but unfortunately most of their good ones have 20 second+ recharges.

For example, guided weapon is a great spell that I'd love to spam in PvE, but it simply can't be done.

Furthermore, spirit spamming isn't viable because spirits take too long to plop down. To put down 4 spirits (the bare minimum for doing decent damage) you need to cast for over 18 seconds... yawn. This is provided you have assassin's promise or rit lord around to recharge their 45 second cooldowns before the next fight.

IMHO, if spirits were a little more squishy but cast faster and had short recharges, the Rit class would be a lot better but still balanced. And as for ridiculously long cool-down weapon spells... they aren't THAT great to justify their time.

DreamWind
09-11-2006, 00:16
I don't know if anybody has mentioned this yet, but the reasons ritualists are crap now is because of that new mesmer skill that rowns spirits like they are nothing (forgot whats its called exactly). Almost every mesmer is bringing that in gvg now.

Oh yea and paragons are strictly better than rits anyways.

Servant of Kali
09-11-2006, 03:10
Yea i've mentioned it.. Spiritual Pain. It's a great skill even without a single spirit on the battlefield. And if there's one, mesmer has a field day.

Geishe
09-11-2006, 03:18
Oh please that's just BS, Pattcmoi was the ONLY one who even made some decent suggestions which btw i did take into account (such as Vocal was Sogolon for instance).

What do you want me to say at other posters, when half of them agreed, and those who disagreed didnt even make any constructive replies? Yes i should put on fake smile, and act like im in a religious cult. Errr, how bout no.

Thats great.

Ahem, not trying to get credit, but since you seem to have read my comments, it would be good of you to read that I indeed did put Vocal was Sogolon with Incoming + QZ. But if you missed that, and the other suggestions I put on, well then, thats great of you of saying Pattcmoi was the ONLY person giving suggestions. Hella Good gave examples of Ritualists being successful in GvG, but you seem to have forgotten about that too.

But yes, Im sorry Im not good enough for you.

EDIT: to contribute some, would it be possible to havea GvG without monks with only a Rit + Paragon? Vocal was Sogolon + Incoming + QZ + union + soul twisting = 50% and -15 damage reduction... constantly. QZ can **** the other team, all casters will have hard time spamming. Rest are signet spikers (Signet of Sorrow + Mantra of Inscriptions at 16 SR) with a dose of Signet of Midnight for opposing melee, and Interrupts (leech signet) and Elite denial (Signet of humility) and blood magic (vamp gaze for self heals.)

Practically no damage will go through, the Rit and Paragon is the main defense and Rit is the main healer. Big pressure on other team as well.

Possiblity?

Servant of Kali
09-11-2006, 03:59
Oh damn ok i forgot about you ;)
That's just..not great! :P

Daltarin
09-11-2006, 17:58
Forget the spirits. Warmonger's Weapon Me/Rt. Dom Mes + Warmonger = even more shutdown, throw warmonger on a Hammer war, when he isnt knocking down, he is still interrupting.

~Signed,
Dalty the Mute

Wet One
09-11-2006, 23:26
Just FYI

SNA was running a very interesting Rt/Mo last night as pretty much total derv support, only had 1 spirit... the rest was resto? i dont remember all 1/4 sec cast times minus the spirit.. but it was a pretty hot build. If you get the chance to catch a match maybe it will give you some ideas.

bobissocool
10-11-2006, 14:01
som1 just write down a build for a gvg rit plz

Servant of Kali
14-11-2006, 17:29
So the thread dies once someone asks for a Rt GvG build... not that im suprised :)

thedrjay
14-11-2006, 21:29
You also have to consider that the championship for this season consists of only core skills and Nightfall skills. If I was Top 100, I wouldn't waste time trying to find builds for a character class that isn't going to help once the playoffs start.

Im banned oh noes
14-11-2006, 22:37
Top100? More like top50.

And come on, let's be honest, if no one of #100-3000 ranked guilds uses it either, isnt that an indication of something?

ps: Thanks for info, i didnt know championship consists only of those skills. How come is that? I know it's fair towards those who dont buy all chapters, but come on, it's unfair towards everyone else. And overall it makes no sense.

Wet One
14-11-2006, 23:38
Top100? More like top50.

And come on, let's be honest, if no one of #100-3000 ranked guilds uses it either, isnt that an indication of something?

ps: Thanks for info, i didnt know championship consists only of those skills. How come is that? I know it's fair towards those who dont buy all chapters, but come on, it's unfair towards everyone else. And overall it makes no sense.

Lmao... i would like to see the numbers on the people that dont have all 3 chapters and make it to the top 32.. thats the real joke

werd
15-11-2006, 12:44
well it's not unfair, but it's strange, since i recall ANet saying that you did not have to buy all chapters to remain competitive, go figure.

Almas Darksoul
15-11-2006, 14:13
Yes, you need to use only core and NF skills. Surprisingly, my guild has found that this will not impact on our build very much, although we will have to tweak our monks and our warriors slightly.

This, I think, is partially to inspire originality, and also to make players with only NF identify some builds that they could use themselves - in PvE or some PvP types.

Regarding rits: I would suggest that Anet un-nerf rits -slightly- and give paragons a moderate sized nerf. ATM, I think no team has a good reason to take a defensively-orientated rit.

Note that there is one guild I know of in the top 50 who use multiple ritualists in their build, although they are used as hybrid-defensive there, and are part of a dps/time pressure spike.

And I've seen multiple 200-1000 guilds from random matches who use ritualists.

BTW, if anyone wants to tell me a 1337 build using only Core/NF skills, I'd appreciate it ;p. Atm, it looks like our guild will -probably- be playing in the playoffs, and something surprising could help us beat some of the opponents who would otherwise completely own us.

Gestaten Sie
15-11-2006, 15:46
Well, we are talking about balance here. If you occasionally run into a team with Rt, once upon a blue moon, it means Rt's still exist. But it also means something is wrong with balance. I mean, if every team has 2+ eles, and 1/20 teams have (maybe) 1 Rt... that's more a question of balance, than a question of preferred style. Especially since there ARE people who like the style of Ritualist (be it Channeling, Restoration or Communing) but are not able to play it at a competitive level. In other words, if Ele is equally good as Channeling Rt, but Channeling Rt is 5x more difficult to play and has 10x more weaknesses to other builds.. guess what will people play.

Almas Darksoul
15-11-2006, 17:31
Someone (I think) stated that noone uses ritualists, and I pointed out otherwise.

I do think they are underpowered compared to the alternatives currently availlable, but they are not completely unused.

Deaths
21-11-2006, 23:57
I didnt read all the Posts. So sry if i repeat something.

Rit most dmg power is based arround air magic. An Elementalist is batter in it.
The Healing as a Monk is way better then a Rit can be.
The only good part of a Rit is as a Support, but i would prefere a Paragon over a Rit because u can use a Paragon for Eng Managemant (for the Monks) for More dmg and at the same time decrease the incomming dmg. A Rit can just regular the dmg but does not have any eng managment skills. The mobility of a Pragaon was said before. And dont undermistate the armore class of a Paragon.

akarias
23-11-2006, 05:35
yeah rits are under-represented. I'll admit taht spirit spamming can get reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaally boring though. Here's an idea. What about spirit's strength? It looks really enticing, offering up to 25 damage per hit. That's more than any crit can offer. you could really do a powerful spike with that and brutal weapon, such as brutal weapon. You can do it similar to a flourish assassin. A stronger spike but a slower recharge.

siphon speed, GPS, ox, spider, deathblossom, spirit's strength, brutal weapon, vital weapon/res sig

12 dagger, 10 communing, 10 spawning

that's 26+27+27+31+45+45+6(13)+6(25)=429 irresistable damage, not counting dagger strikes. That's hard on a war. Or if you just wanted to spike you could use twisting fangs to make it around 459 damage, though with a without daggers factored in.

Additionally you hit really hard, especially with those dual attacks. I mean averaging 70 off a normal dual attack is nothing to scoff at. Even warriors feel the sting of 25 damage per hit. Add a midline spike and their in trouble, and can NEVER use frenzy. And yes, this is for GvG, as an alternate for the flourish assassin. energy is something to consider though, so you may want to opt out of brutal weapon.

Once Upon a Time
23-11-2006, 11:57
Brutal Weapon doesnt work if you're enchanted, which means it wont work with Spirit's Strenght.

akarias
23-11-2006, 18:43
ah, thanks for the point

Patccmoi
26-11-2006, 07:59
We started using Rts back some. I made some builds for GvG Rts that are think are quite solid overall. They're hybrid builds filling more than one role. It's not just about spirit spamming or direct nuking or direct healing. The advantage they have is mostly their versatility.

Here's one for example:

15 Channeling
14 Restoration

Caretaker's Charge (60 damage, 60 self heal, emanagement without investing in Spawning)
Channeled Strike (135 damage)
Gaze from Beyond (126 damage)
Warmonger's Weapon (15s)
Mend Body and Soul (109 heal)
Life
Generous was Tsungrai
Flesh of my Flesh

This guy can assist with spikes and pressure with his pretty solid nukes. He can buff a warrior with Warmonger's for 15/20s of every attack interrupting (this is REALLY devastating when you're spiking enemy monks as there's good chances everything they try to save themselves will be interrupted. We got many monk kills interrupting Return, RoF, Spirit Bond, etc.). He can do some party healing with Life that really helps against pressure. He can do some direct heal assist. He can hard rez well with GwT to restore his health to max instantly. And one of his main strength is actually to go counter ganks. With his good healing ability, few gankers can manage to kill a NPC when he's around (109 heal every 4s is more than what most gankers can really sustain) and with his truly huge self-heal very few can take him out. But he's nuking, and most gankers have to eventually run because his nuking hurts after a little while. I beat some YAA gankers with this. You can't kill them if they run (no snares) but if runner is there he can snare them or otherwise at least you force them to run and save NPCs.

We use him along this Rt :

14-15 Channeling (depends if you worry about the major rune)
14 Communing
4 Spawning

Weapon of Quickening
Warmonger's Weapon
Essence Strike
Gaze from Beyond
Pain
Bloodsong
Shadowsong
Rez Signet

This one adds pressure through spirit, keeps the casters buffed with WoQ and an attacker with Warmonger's. With WoQ on both Rts, we can have 2 warriors in CONSTANT Warmonger, which means our warriors interrupt with every hit, which adds huge disruption ability. He can spike assist with his nukes too. He's mainly a party buffer though.

It's a really interesting Rt duo overall that seems promising atm. Both builds are relatively versatile and offer a good bunch of utility. They're not trying to be a monk or an ele, they're doing different stuff that neither could really achieve, with Quickening/Warmonger Weapon buffs that are unmatched by any other profession. 3 casters in WoQ and 2 melee in Warmonger gives a serious boost to your offensive power and overall threat.

Edwinna Elbert
29-11-2006, 21:08
I can't be bothered reading back through nine pages to see if someone has mentioned this already but:

With the current GvG "meta"game as it is, spirit ritualists are off the menu until further notice. The sole reason for this is that almost all mesmers are bringing spiritual pain, which makes spirits more of a danger than a help.

Patccmoi
29-11-2006, 22:07
I can't be bothered reading back through nine pages to see if someone has mentioned this already but:

With the current GvG "meta"game as it is, spirit ritualists are off the menu until further notice. The sole reason for this is that almost all mesmers are bringing spiritual pain, which makes spirits more of a danger than a help.

I must've said that at least 10 times in different threads, but that's NOT true.

Everyone keep bringing that up with Spiritual Pain but we DO use spirits in GvG AGAINST Spiritual Pain, and guess what... it doesn't matter.

Spiritual Pain isn't Unnatural Signet. It's not free! It's 10E every shot to do 94 damage to a spirit. A spirit would take 3-5 Spiritual Pain to kill. That's 30-50E a Mesmer would use to kill a SPIRIT?

Yes, it does AOE, but just like any AOE you can move. You don't position your spirits Nearby to one another if you know you're facing Spiritual Pain and you're not stupid. And you don't stick Nearby your spirit if they're nuking it! You don't stand in a firestorm, there isn't much reason to stay near your spirit either (you rarely are in the first place too).

If a Mesmer is destroying his energy doing SPain on spirits, your Monks should be extremely happy that this energy isn't spent on THEM. A Mesmer can do much more damage to your team using 50E on your casters than to take out a spirit...

Ace Bear
30-11-2006, 00:07
Not to mention most spirits can be placed behind your backline which if a Mesmer is extended that far...oh happy days.

Nobleman Azure
30-11-2006, 05:00
I must've said that at least 10 times in different threads, but that's NOT true.

Everyone keep bringing that up with Spiritual Pain but we DO use spirits in GvG AGAINST Spiritual Pain, and guess what... it doesn't matter.

Spiritual Pain isn't Unnatural Signet. It's not free! It's 10E every shot to do 94 damage to a spirit. A spirit would take 3-5 Spiritual Pain to kill. That's 30-50E a Mesmer would use to kill a SPIRIT?

Yes, it does AOE, but just like any AOE you can move. You don't position your spirits Nearby to one another if you know you're facing Spiritual Pain and you're not stupid. And you don't stick Nearby your spirit if they're nuking it! You don't stand in a firestorm, there isn't much reason to stay near your spirit either (you rarely are in the first place too).

If a Mesmer is destroying his energy doing SPain on spirits, your Monks should be extremely happy that this energy isn't spent on THEM. A Mesmer can do much more damage to your team using 50E on your casters than to take out a spirit...

Not to mention ways of killing a spirit has been existing since the first days of guild wars. Its called damned-regular damage, SP does armor ignorant damage but guess what? Here is what people dont get: It doesnt freaking matter, spirits armor is crap a measly fireball would do way better than maybe 2 casts of SP.

MasterNightfall
02-12-2006, 22:47
[SoW] was running an offensive spirit Rit versus [Te] just last night and they did very well with it.

The rit and our necro are actually the things I like most about our build.

As for spiritual pain, thanks to the energy cost, no, I don't think of it as much of a counter to spirits in particular. I do think of it as a spike/just hit a bunch of guys on the bridge for -75/NPC killing at VoD skill. However, if the enemy is using spirits, and they happen to stand near them (It happens often enough, when we play agressively), I've no qualms about hitting it a few times when in a pressure team.

Forbiddian
21-12-2006, 02:48
Ritualists aren't viewed as effective in the new metagame for three basic reasons:

1) Most teams run spike builds. There's no room in spike builds for a spirit spammer (and there are better spikers if you want to use a ritualist spiker). The reason for the huge increase in spike team viability is the popularity of E/Mo and Mo/E Heal Party/LoD spammers. Ritualists also aren't terribly good with splits (which are generally extremely mobile affairs). The splitting team could quickly converge if the spirit pressure becomes too great, forcing the ritualist to recast all of their spirits (spirit spammers are useless for the first 5-10 seconds of combat, at least, and they don't have room for running support, making them at least 10-15s behind schedule in saving their team after a split.

2) Basically since Extinguish, more and more teams have gone to condensing the flag runner into a party support role. Now with Mending Touch and Storm Djinn's Haste and Light of Deliverance, E/Mo or Mo/E flag runners are present in every single build. This has been the death-knell of pressure builds, and with it the ritualist's offensive viability, as their spirit spam damage will be reabsorbed every 5 seconds or so by a random LoD cast.

3) Nerfs have hurt defensive ritualists. Big time.



I could go on, but those are the big reasons I can think of off of the top of my head. Most teams would much rather have a shutdown mesmer with spiking capabilities than a spirit spammer or even a spirit spammer with spiking capabilities in the new, mobile, and spiking metagame.

penguinious
10-03-2007, 08:37
nice, you mentioned the spirit str ritualist, but here's the two builds most people prefer to use...
Build 1- The safer, more reliable and versatile build.
10+1+3 Spawning
12 Dagger Mastery
4+2 Communing
Rest in Shadow Arts

Golden Fox Strike
Fox Fangs
9 Tail Strike
Feigned Neutrality
Sight Beyond Sight
Vital Weapon
Spirit's Strength (E)
Rezz Signet

This build can still do amazing spike damage, and the skills (which are all relatively short 8 sec recharge) CANNOT BE BLOCKED, and you cannnot be blinded (Sight beyond sight), effectively negating most melee counters. Your 3 hit unblockable combo usually nets you 90 + 90 + 110 + 110 = 400 damage against casters, along with your regular attacks also being quite deadly (around 60 damage each on casters.) Barring intervention, anyone will be dead a few regular hits after your combo.


Build 2- The "Run like hell" build

Spawning - 16
Dagger Mastery- 12
Communing- 6

Golden Phoenix Strike
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
(Your choice) Blades of Steel, Death Blossom, or Twisting Fangs
Sight Beyond Sight
Vital Weapon
Spirit's Strength (E)

The spike damage on this is absolutely insane. DPS-wise, this build makes any other spiker look laughable. This is the estimated DPS of your combo on a caster, and I'll assume that you use Blades of Steel. 90 + 100 + 100 (Knockdown), + 110 (Poisoned) + 130 + 130... = 620, and poison. ... If you choose to use twisting fangs, you'll deal "only" 540 damage, but you will also inflict deep wound and bleeding along with poison, which is -8 degeneration, and -20% HP. In other words, caster = dead, warrior = dead, anyone = dead with build. The entire combo takes about 2-3 seconds to perform, and recharges in 10 seconds. You cannot be blinded, however, the target must be alone, and not with any blocking stances (cough cough, elementalists, cough cough).

I love it when whammos come running up thinking your a squishy spirit spammer, then get 4 hitted.

David Holtzman
10-03-2007, 12:34
I love it when whammos come running up thinking your a squishy spirit spammer, then get 4 hitted.

Nobody runs either of those two terrible rits in GvG. You also don't find whammos, though you will find W/Mo with mending touch.

Wuzzman
10-03-2007, 16:09
I can't seem to understand this logic...if its not on observe mode it most be useless, nearly unused, and down right at the bottom of the barrel. How often do these people who say "zomg XXX profession ain't in gvg", gvg? Wait they don't they spend more time watching this game and playing with the regular copy and paste guildies, then actually playing the game and innovating.

David Holtzman
10-03-2007, 17:24
I have absolutely no idea what you just tried to say.

Psychotic
10-03-2007, 17:40
before the recent nerf, rits were found with ritspikes, and now, still, they are being used for runners. they are also occassionally found to be support(they can do a nice mix of support and help with rainbow spikes). other than that... they aren't going to be as seen as before.

David Holtzman
11-03-2007, 02:55
Rits are very nice on the split for punitive healing.

shardfenix
15-03-2007, 05:05
Ritualists still are and will probably always be the gayest class. All they do is grief the other team. No noobs, spamming vengeful and remedy back and forth doesn't make you good, just because you can solo any gank team.

Savsuds
15-03-2007, 05:54
Ritualists still are and will probably always be the gayest class. All they do is grief the other team. No noobs, spamming vengeful and remedy back and forth doesn't make you good, just because you can solo any gank team.

A gank team that could not beat a solo rit spamming vengeful and remedy also is not good either.

I agree there is very little variation in rit builds at the moment. Hopefully time will prove me wrong.

shardfenix
15-03-2007, 06:41
A gank team that could not beat a solo rit spamming vengeful and remedy also is not good either.

I agree there is very little variation in rit builds at the moment. Hopefully time will prove me wrong.

So you would happen to know a magical way of countering weapon rits with a 3-man gank? Do tell.

Mr Savior
15-03-2007, 09:42
Rt Channeling spike teams suck at split, if we have seen Discord team or Rt spike we have allways splitted with good results.

halfthought
22-03-2007, 23:46
So you would happen to know a magical way of countering weapon rits with a 3-man gank? Do tell.

2 heavy damage dealers (YAA, shock-sin, or B-arrow etc) with kd/interrupts+High amount of skill can kill a flagstand/gank rit. One person couldn't pull it off. If the 3rd person isnt a support role, it should be fairly easy. I believe that the surviability should is balanced by slower ganks. I've killed bucketload of rits with 2 roles commonly found on balance.

and yes, good rits.