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Gtompkins
05-11-2006, 21:00
In the beginning, there were 10 gods, Dwayna, Balthazaar, Grenth, Melandru, Abbadon, Menzies, Dhuum, Great Dwarf, Lyssa, & Lyss (Lyssa used to be two Gods Lyssa and Lyss, but they merged into one god as a punishment for creating the humans)

Dhuum was the god of death and Grenth was the god of ice, Grenth threw Dhuum out of power and took both mantles.

Menzies was the god of fire and Balthazaar was the god of war, Balthazaar threw Menzies out of power and took both mantles, Menzies continues to fight for his throne back.

The Great Dwarf created the Dwarves as an image of himself, he defeats Abbadon and throws him into the realm of torment. Wipes abbadons name from [most] records and is never seen agin.

Abbadon is thrown into the realm of torment by the Great Dwarf.

Lyss (Lyssa's stubborn twin sister) creates the reckless humans as an image of herself and as a punisment is fused into Lyssa.

Lyssa is fused with Lyss, the reason why she has 2 heads.

So after all this, there are 5 gods left, when there was originaly 10. This shows that the "gods" are as much godly as the greek gods were godly.

What happened to Kormir and Abbadon is like what happened to Lyssa+Lyss, only that Kormir was a mortal. Just like how Lyssa is 2 gods at once, "two different sides of the same coin", Kormir is both Abbadon and herself. Kormir is Abbadon, but yet she is not. Its hard to understand, like how Jesus and God are one in the same.

Now Gods cant die, and the closest thing to death is that they are reduced to energy and become part of another god. This may be one of the reasons why Balth+Grenth dont want Dhuum+Menzies to be defeated. They both stole mantles from them, if another God took their place, they would lose the mantle.

This creates a neverending loop, where if a god is defeated, he is "reincarnated" in a sense, only they are still somewhat of the same person. I wouldn't be suprised if the 5 remaining gods refer to Kormir as Abbadon.

Anyway, the only thing that makes sense in the 5 gods re-accepting kormiradon is that they never cared much about him anyway. He was like their naughty little brother, who got in trouble and was sent to the corner (RoT).

So the end of all this ramble is that yes, in a sense the Titans are demi-gods, but the title of "god" doesnt mean much, for the gods are forever changing. They are still demi-gods as they work for a current God. As Abbadon's reincarnation (kormir) continues her reign, I doubt that she will use the titans, which will reduce them to mere things, instead of Demi gods.

KaliMagdalene
06-11-2006, 00:05
So the end of all this ramble is that yes, in a sense the Titans are demi-gods, but the title of "god" doesnt mean much, for the gods are forever changing. They are still demi-gods as they work for a current God. As Abbadon's reincarnation (kormir) continues her reign, I doubt that she will use the titans, which will reduce them to mere things, instead of Demi gods.

Interesting lore on the 10 into 5 gods there. Thanks for posting that.

As for demigods - I'm not sure that simply serving a god qualifies one for demigodhood. The archetypal demigod (Herakles) gets his status from having a god for a father and a mortal for a mother. In general, it means someone who has a mortal for one parent and a god for the other.

That's not to say the titans couldn't be demigods, just saying that the definition you're using is more applicable to angels (or demons) than demigods.

Gtompkins
06-11-2006, 02:25
Interesting lore on the 10 into 5 gods there. Thanks for posting that.

As for demigods - I'm not sure that simply serving a god qualifies one for demigodhood. The archetypal demigod (Herakles) gets his status from having a god for a father and a mortal for a mother. In general, it means someone who has a mortal for one parent and a god for the other.

That's not to say the titans couldn't be demigods, just saying that the definition you're using is more applicable to angels (or demons) than demigods.


Sorry for my mis-defining of Demigod.

I accually find it quite interesting about Herekles (Hercules, both are right) being a Demi-God. This must mean that Menzies is also a Demi-God, though he once did the same job as a true god. In the Hidden City mission, Balthazaar refers to Menzies as his "Half Brother." Kormir states early in the game that all the current gods were siblings. I wonder now about the orgin of Menzies, and what his other half is.

For Citation of the 10 gods post, The Lyssa+Lyss was from the GW Special Edition manuel, and a quest in Vabbi (Vabbians state that Lyssa created the humans in her image). The Dhuum+Grenth is from ingame, The great dwarf is from the dwarf of the ring of fire (states that he made the dwarves) and some Guild Wiki article stating that he helped lock up abadon and was never seen since. The Menzies+Balthazaar is from FoW.

Quintus Antonius
06-11-2006, 04:22
The Great Dwarf is Balthazar. I have clearly shown this in my article on Dwarven Theology. I would also say Menzies is a demigod, as he is only the half-brother of Balthazar, meaning somewhere, he has a different father or mother. Also, there may be more than "10" Old Gods (I'd say the actually figure from your data should be 8, not 10 for the reasons above) because someone had to sire and mater the current generation of gods. Whether or not these beings were gods or mortals is unknown however.

And a side request, I've never heard of the whole Lyssa+Lyss being bonded/creating the humans thing. Can you post and image/text/name of quest of the quest you cite and a scan or link to a digital manual of the GWSE Manuscripts?

Ranger Nietzsche
06-11-2006, 10:15
Yeah I would also like to see the source of the whole Lyssa/Lyss thing. Especially as Lyss is mostly used in GW as a reference directly to lyssa. Also because everything I can find about the GWSE manuscripts indicate that they are idential to all other GW: Prophecies manuscripts differing only at the level that the US and European manuscripts differ semantically about Odran.

For example : the Day of Lyss is a holiday celebratign lyssa. The mirror of Lyss is a temple dedicated to Lyssa.

As for Lyssa creating the vabbians in her image, that doesn't mean she created all of Humanity. In fact it sort of implies that she didn't if the "lore suggests" that she only made the vabbians in her image, as taken from the Tihark Orchard mission.

Quintus Antonius
06-11-2006, 14:12
The Vabbians worship (for lack of a better term) wealth and beauty. Lyssa is the patroness of these things. That's why the Vabbians say that Vabbi was created by Lyssa.

Gtompkins
06-11-2006, 20:28
The theories of Lyssa are mere theories, but can be backed up by countless sources. Since there seems to be an interest, I'll continue to talk about her and list all sources.

The only thing I took from the manuel was the beginning clause, "The twin goddesses of Lyssa." though this could be a mere metaphor, I doubt it. The reason is that the picture of Lyssa shows 2 human looking girls fused at the waist/stomach. Even the statue in ToA shows that image, only that the legs are covered in a whirlwind like vortex, but it still shows two girls winding together to form one. Throughout the chapters Lyssa is refered to as both Lyssa and Lyss, though mostely Lyssa. Hmm if someone is named Lauren, I wouldnt randomly call her Laura. They are two different names.

That is why I believe that the name of the other girl who is inside Lyssa is Lyss. When refered to as simply a god, they use Lyssa (example, "Lyssa be damned, I didnt see that one coming!" said by Danika in GWF)

And they aren't like merged twins that you see on the news. Lyssa has a full body, but another girl is unnaturally inside her sideways. She appears to have not even a hint of legs. The woman who makes up 75% of the body is Lyssa, and the other 25% of that half girl is what remains of Lyss, which might not even be a consious soul.


The Vabbians worship (for lack of a better term) wealth and beauty. Lyssa is the patroness of these things. That's why the Vabbians say that Vabbi was created by Lyssa.

This would be a valid point. However, they did not say that Lyssa created Vabbi, they said that Lyssa created the Vabbians. The Vabbians as a people, not a country. A mere metaphore? Once again, I doubt it. There is reason to believe that Vabbi was where the humans were created.

This is my reason. The crystal desert is what connects Tyria and Elona. The crystal desert was not a desert until the Gods left the earth and turned it into a wasteland. The humans couldn't have originated in Tyria because Istan was one of the first empires. The humans couldn't have originated in Istan because it is filled with ancient relics of Abaddon, obviously Abbadon's turf. That leaves Kourna and Vabbi. And the Vabbians happen to say that Lyssa created them in her image.

Now we go onto that point. Most humans don't have another person sprouting out of their chests, do they. If Lyssa didn't have a woman sprouting out of her, she would look exactly like a human. Lets look at the other gods. Dwayna has wings. Bathazaar is a dwarf (I just learned this). Abaddon has six eyes. Melandru is half tree, half human. Grenth wasnt one of the "true" Gods until he rid of Dhuum, and his fingers form insect-like claws. All this leaves is Lyssa, who happenes to be a human with a girl inside her.

I will use this same reasoning to convince you now that Lyssa+Lyss were once two people. It is said that the Vabbians (the people, not the province) were created in Lyssa's image. Does every Vabbian have two heads? No. This means that the only possible way that this could be true is if Lyssa didn't always have a girl shooting out of her side. Lyssa+Lyss were once two people.

So why did Lyssa+Lyss merge? Well the only thing that she/they seemed to do was create the humans. And wait, lets find out what the result of that was.

1. The humans expand outside of their territory, warring with other species, and driving them out.

2. Humans destroy nature more than any other race

3. Humans enslave other species

4. Humans use magic to wreak havic apon the world.

Hmm, If I was a god I'd be pretty pissed off at the fact that Lyssa/Lyss created a race that is destroying all our hard work.

If Lyssa/Lyss did indeed create the humans, it would be her fault that this happened to the world, and if something is your fault you get punished.

Hmm now what seems to be a good punishment. How about throwing your body into your sisters, making you less of a soul. That sounds like a good punishment to me.

Now which one of the twins created the humans? It was most likely Lyss. This is because after the two were fused together, The name Lyssa remained. Lyss is still sometimes used, but not as much as Lyssa. Lyss is as good as dead, if Lyssa has control over what remains of her body.

So let's sum up the facts.

1) Lyssa is refered to as the "Twin Gods of Lyssa"
2) Lyssa has a full body and a half body sprouting out of her side
3) If the humans were created in Lyssa's image, she must not have had that body in her when she did it
4) The humans wreaked havoc onto the world. It goes to the point that the gods leave the world. They must've been pretty pissed off
5) Making Lyssa+Lyss one in the same seems to be a good form of punishment, doesnt it?

And for those who will say it, in RoT, the gods say that the humans were created with the same amount of potential knowledge as the gods. They do not say that they all created them together.

I hope this has helped convince you in my belief that Lyssa was once two people. What Anet says about Lyssa is vague, and I wouldnt be suprised if this was one of the subjects of a later chapter.

EDIT: AHA! Arenanet referes to Lyssa as two people at this part of their site. http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/tyria/story/theoldgods.php

Quintus Antonius
06-11-2006, 20:38
I think your theory is impressive. I'd recommend writing up a whole paper on it so we can discuss it in it's own thread.

However, I'm not too happy that you said you were quoting a source, when in reality, you weren't. In the future, please tell us exactly what you are quoting so there is no questioning it.

The one flaw I potentially see is that Vabbi didn't exist until after the time of the Shattered Dynasty. Also, humans appeared on Tyria first in Cantha. I'd still like to know which quest you are refering to, if it's not to much of a problem.

Gtompkins
06-11-2006, 20:53
I think your theory is impressive. I'd recommend writing up a whole paper on it so we can discuss it in it's own thread.

However, I'm not too happy that you said you were quoting a source, when in reality, you weren't. In the future, please tell us exactly what you are quoting so there is no questioning it.

The one flaw I potentially see is that Vabbi didn't exist until after the time of the Shattered Dynasty. Also, humans appeared on Tyria first in Cantha. I'd still like to know which quest you are refering to, if it's not to much of a problem.

I realised that I did not quote the source the twin goddess part, and now I will list you my source. In all honesty I was so caught up in my theory that I forgot to list the sources I found, and I will give them to you now.

http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/tyria/story/theoldgods.php

it is the same article in my manuel, search under Lyssa. Sorry for that.

[Lyssa
The twin goddesses of beauty and illusion, Lyssa is the patron god of the Mesmer profession. Many a spellcaster has fallen under the charms of these two, making it easy for them to choose to specialize in the mesmeric arts. Lyssa is usually portrayed in her natural state—a pair of twin, intertwined goddesses, back to back, no illusions or glamours involved. There are stories of young men stopping to gaze longingly at statues of the beautiful goddesses, only to forget themselves and die of thirst while simply looking on.

Notice how they refer to Lyssa as two people. Look at that article on the link I gave you and you will see that there is more to this theory than simple speculation. This is the exact article in my manuel.

The discussions of Lyssa take place in many different parts of the Vabbian part of the story. Tihark Orchard (sp) speaks of this many times as the whole mission is based around a festival dedicated to Lyssa. This is also discussed somewhat in the Mirror of Lyss and the quest leading to Tihark Orchard.

The Elonian timeline doesnt exactly say that Vabbi didnt exist until then, only that it was the time that the evil primeval kings reached it. It existed before then because he would have no civilization to conquer if there was nothing there

source: http://www.guildwars.com/theworld/elona/timeline.php

Istan couldn't have been the first empire, because they wouldn't need to "conquer" anything. Vabbi is also around the center of both continents and it will be easy to understand how they got to Tyria if they simply explored in all different directions. Source is in the link above.

Also notice that the Mirror of Lyss is Lyss not Lyssa, if Vabbi was indeed the first civilization, than it would be understandable why it said Lyss not Lyssa, for that it was created when Lyss was not yet fused into Lyssa.

Source: just look at Vabbi, you see the Mirror of Lyss as an area.

Quintus Antonius
06-11-2006, 21:01
Now that's what I'm talking about =P Good citations.

Would you mind if I split these last series of responses into their own thread? This is an interesting topic which I believe warrants it's own thread for discussion.

Gtompkins
06-11-2006, 21:06
Sure, you can make a new thread out of it.

Gtompkins
06-11-2006, 23:21
Edit button dissapeared.

Anyway, I noticed another thing while doing quests in Vabbi.

All the monuments that have to do with Lyssa use the name "Lyss" instead of Lyssa. The Mirror of Lyss, the Fountain of Lyss, the Theatre of Lyss. Do you find it interesting that all these say Lyss, but when they refer to the god, they say Lyssa? This is because Lyss created them, and is now a part of Lyssa (punishment for creating destructive humans). The Vabbians know a special something about Lyssa, which is why they are the only civilization to obsess over her. Perhaps the documents about Lyssa+Lyss's fusion is inside the locked chamber in the Vabbian Liabrary. These monuments/buildings arent brand new, so it really enforces my belief that Lyss created the humans and was merged into Lyssa as a punishment. Why else would the Vabbians, who claim to be the first humans, use Lyss in all their arcitecture? They know that Lyssa was once two people, the once separate twins, Lyss and Lyssa, and she was responsible for their creation.

Source: Areas in NF: Halls of Chokhin, Bokka Amphitheatre (sp), Forum Highlands.

Camaris Spectre
06-11-2006, 23:52
How does the punishment come into play? Can this not be a single god with two manifestations? If I had to choose a god of Schizophrenia, it would certianly be Lyssa! It's also possible that a pair of beings took on godhood together.

Ranger Nietzsche
07-11-2006, 00:08
i think he wants YOU to start a thread about it.

Personally, I think it contains too much speculation and extrapolation.

Yes, Lyssa is a dichotomy of two godesses as one. However, this to me seems inherent as a god of Chaos and Illusion. I see no reason to believe she was ever two people, any more than there is reason to belive that the Romans thought Janus was two people.

Yes, the Priest in the Tihark orchard mission says Lyssa created Vabbi and that "lore suggests" she made the vabbians in her own image. I see no reason as to why this suggests she made ALL HUMANS. She may have literrally just made the Vabbian race.

Sometimes they say Lyss, sometimes Lyssa. This means NOTHING. You have a friend named Robert, you call him Bob. Names are often shortened when their purpose is changed.

Notice..no one EVER says "Lyss" referring to the Goddess directly. They say Lyss when referring to something about or in possession of Lyssa. Day OF Lyss Mirror OF Lyss. "Lyss" could jsut as easily be the Genetive case of "Lyssa" in Vabbian or the Ancient tongue. This is the same Linguistic structure that makes Jesus in latin Jesu or Jesi depending on the case. (QA correct me if Jesus is 2nd Declension and noth 5th)

You doubt that "twin goddesses" is a metaphor? religion is FULL of metaphors, not to mention that a "twin goddess" is a perfect metaphor for a deity of both Illusion and beauty.

I dont see why its inconsistent for humans to be in Lyssa's image. After all in Greek mythology people were created in the Image of the Gods as well, and many of those gods had similar godly deformities or otherwise inhuman traits.

Also, if you're right and there are two godesses (and I concede this only to make the following point), teh vabbian priest specifically says LYSSA made the vabbians in her image, not this LYSS person.

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 00:51
i think he wants YOU to start a thread about it.

I was thinking about doing that, but it's quite impossible for me, seeing as how I can not split threads.

Personally, I think it contains too much speculation and extrapolation.

Yes, Lyssa is a dichotomy of two godesses as one. However, this to me seems inherent as a god of Chaos and Illusion. I see no reason to believe she was ever two people, any more than there is reason to belive that the Romans thought Janus was two people.

I Invite you to look at the link I posted, and look at the picture of Lyssa. Notice how she is two people, in one. She at least has 2 heads, 2 mouths.

Yes, the Priest in the Tihark orchard mission says Lyssa created Vabbi and that "lore suggests" she made the vabbians in her own image. I see no reason as to why this suggests she made ALL HUMANS. She may have literrally just made the Vabbian race.

And don't you find it funny that Vabbi was indeed one of the first civilizations ever, and that it is conveniently located right near the crystal desert, which, before it's destruction, was the crossroads of Tyria+Elona? This is because Vabbi was the first civilization. No, Istan was not the first civilization. Why? Because if Istan was the first civilization, how would they have conquered other civilizations (for source look at Elonian Timeline link in above post). It can't be dismissed.

Sometimes they say Lyss, sometimes Lyssa. This means NOTHING. You have a friend named Robert, you call him Bob. Names are often shortened when their purpose is changed.

If I have a friend named Lauren, I won't go and call her Laura, even though the names are similar. The Vabbians are one of the only people who use the term "Lyss". And do you wonder why all old monuments say "Lyss"? It is because they were one of the only people who witnessed Lyssa before her merging.

Also, it is impossible for the current Lyssa to have made the Vabbians in her image, unless she was different in the past. If the current Lyssa made the Vabbians from her current image, every Vabbian would have 4 arms and 2 heads. This is why Lyssa couldn't have always had her current form of being 2 women sharing legs.

Notice..no one EVER says "Lyss" referring to the Goddess directly. They say Lyss when referring to something about or in possession of Lyssa. Day OF Lyss Mirror OF Lyss. "Lyss" could jsut as easily be the Genetive case of "Lyssa" in Vabbian or the Ancient tongue. This is the same Linguistic structure that makes Jesus in latin Jesu or Jesi depending on the case. (QA correct me if Jesus is 2nd Declension and noth 5th)

This may be a good argument if it wasnt for 1 simple detail. If I understand what you are saying, "Lyss" is the form of possession. However there is 1 thing that conflicts with your argument. The Avatar of Lyssa. If what you said was true, it would be called "Avatar of Lyss".

And I doubt that "Lyss" is in Vabbian tongue. The reason? Everyone speaks the same language. There isnt an ascension-type quest making us learn Vabbian.

And notice how the Vabbians are one of the only people who use the term "Lyss" and its always on monuments. The Mirror of Lyss, the Fountain of Lyss. And I doubt that these were made yesterday, and it is quite possible that they were created when Lyssa and Lyss were two different people.

You doubt that "twin goddesses" is a metaphor? religion is FULL of metaphors, not to mention that a "twin goddess" is a perfect metaphor for a deity of both Illusion and beauty.

Theres a reason why it's not a metaphor. Once again I'd like you to look at the link in an above post of mine, and you will see that Lyssa is litterally two people. This is evidence that can not be denied. You can ignore it all you want, but it can not be denied. Lyssa is two women sharing legs. Litteraly. The Guild wars website says so. Metaphore? I think not. And we already went over why she couldn't have always been in this form, unless you believe that all Vabbians have 2 heads and 4 arms and are using Lyssa's power of illusion to hide it:laughing:

I dont see why its inconsistent for humans to be in Lyssa's image. After all in Greek mythology people were created in the Image of the Gods as well, and many of those gods had similar godly deformities or otherwise inhuman traits.

Having just taken a college course in ancient myths, I can happily deem this false. The humans were created in Greek mythology by 1 God, in the beginning. This 1 god was a giant human. Lyssa would be a normal human if she didnt have another woman sprouting out of her. This is why she couldn't have had this form when she created the Vabbians. Why? She was two different people at the time.

Also, if you're right and there are two godesses (and I concede this only to make the following point), teh vabbian priest specifically says LYSSA made the vabbians in her image, not this LYSS person.

Simple as this. Lyss is Lyssa. I don't know if you're familiar with the Dragon Ball stories. But if The Supreme Kai wrote his name on a wall, and fused with Kabito, they become Kabito Kai, and they will always be Kabito Kai, in the future they will always be called Kabito Kai. However, his old name will still be in the wall from when he wrote it when he was still Supreme Kai. Same thing with Lyssa. The Monuments that say "Lyss" are all old. Lyss is now inside of Lyssa. Lyss no longer exists. Lyss is Lyssa and will be called Lyssa for the rest of eternity. But that fountain that said Lyss would still be there from the time when she was a different person.

Another way of looking at this is if you're a woman, and change your name when you get married. Your birth certificate will always say Jane Smith, even though you are now known as Jane Doe. I can say "Jane Doe invented <item>, but if her birth certificate was on her mother's wall, it would still say Jane Smith.

The Great Dwarf won't always be there to change records (not serious comment)




I think these are a series of too many coincidences that shouldn't be ignored. Lyss has never been a major god until NF, and now she has some background. I wouldn't be suprised if chapter 4 drove more into this, and answered some of our questions. I am not claiming to be 100% correct, but I am claiming that my theory has some merit to it, and can not be immediatly dismissed.

Sable Phoenix
07-11-2006, 00:53
I'm curious as to where this "woman sprouting out of her chest" comes from. Lyssa's always portrayed as two whole, separate women in every piece of art that there is in the game, whether statue or mural. "Intertwined" also does not mean "fused". It means that the two are wrapping their limbs around each other in a rather sensual manner.

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 00:56
I'm curious as to where this "woman sprouting out of her chest" comes from. Lyssa's always portrayed as two whole, separate women in every piece of art that there is in the game, whether statue or mural.

Look at the link I posted in another post of mine. Lyssa is portrayed as having 2 legs, and 2 torsos.

I am in the process of uploading another picture which clearly shows that Lyssa has 2 legs.

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2923/lyssaqp6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is the only picture of Lyssa's "true form". Notice how the second woman comes right out of her side. As for the murals, yes, they show two different women. However, they can't both be right can they. And guildwars.com says that the statue is her true form, and the picture of her true form shows her with 2 legs and 2 bodies. I am glad you brought the murals up. It is simply an illusion. Look at the Tyrian explaination for Lyssa, they say that she is always using illusions to change how she looks. That statue, according to the guild wars website, is one of the only pictures of Lyssa's true form, and it shows her having two legs.

I'm glad you brought that up. It will stop the "Lyssa's twin doesnt exist" posts, which I am grateful for. However, The statue only shows two legs, and unless Anet is lying to us, that is her true form, the form of two people in one.

Sable Phoenix
07-11-2006, 01:10
Look at the link I posted in another post of mine. Lyssa is portrayed as having 2 legs, and 2 torsos.

I am in the process of uploading another picture which clearly shows that Lyssa has 2 legs.

Is she really?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/sablephoenix/Guild%20Wars/lyssa.jpg

I don't know what I was seeing here then, because I was pretty sure there were two whole separate women in this mural.

The statues are not an accurate representation of the legs of the gods, because none of them have complete legs. Unless we're supposed to believe that Melandru actually is a tree from the knees down, or that Dwayna is some sort of conical ice-cream-cone shaped thing, or that Balthazaar and Grenth are giant clotheshangers. All of the gods are depicted as sprouting out of the bases of their statues; it's artistic license.

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 01:16
I edited my post too late, Look up.

You can't blame it on the art of the statue, because one of them has two legs, obviously the other one should.

One reason why that Mural can not be the depiction of Lyssa



****SPOILER****



If, at "present day" Lyssa+Twin/Lyss were separated, we would've been celebrating Kormir's entry as the seventh god. Lyssa reguardless of the past, can not two people. Right now she is one. She may have two heads, but she is one. And btw, the vortex starts below the knee, I think we would've seen the second pair of legs by then.

Sable Phoenix
07-11-2006, 01:21
I saw it.

I'm saying it doesn't prove anything, and I think you're drawing erroneous conclusions. Either the murals are accurate representations, or the statues are; one has to be taking artistic license. When looking at the other statues of the other gods, they all merge into the bases of their statues, just like Lyssa does. Up until the point where the twin bodies of Lyssa reach the swirl of the carven base, they're two separate bodies; they merge into the base, not each other. If we apply a little logic, what's more logical; to assume artistic license, or to assume the statues are accurate representations of the gods' true appearance? If the statues are accurate, and humans are made in the gods' image, why don't humans float around on cones of light and swirls of chaos or sprout from trees like the gods apparently do?

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 01:26
I'll say it again. The vortex in Lyssa's statue starts below the knee, I think we would've seen the second pair of thies. The can't both be right, and which one will you trust, one that Anet has said themselves is the true form of Lyssa, or a mural found in Ascalon which is an artistic depiction of the God.

And all theories call for making quick conclusions, if Anet released a big book of the gods, we wouldnt be having this discussion right now.

Interesting food for thought: Every Mural and Statue conflict, except for Dwayna. Which one will we believe?

Btw: Read the scriptures on the statues. Melandru does sprout out of a tree when she appears [True] Dwayna has wings [True] Grenth has people crawling at his feet [True] Balthazar has a beard and sword [True] and Lyssa has 2 legs, im guessing since the other statues seem to be true, that so is Lyssas.

There are no statues showing humans floating around. And of course the Gods can do that, not only because the scriptures say they can, but because they are gods.

Sable Phoenix
07-11-2006, 01:33
I'll say it again. The vortex in Lyssa's statue starts below the knee, I think we would've seen the second pair of thies. The can't both be right, and which one will you trust, one that Anet has said themselves is the true form of Lyssa, or a mural found in Ascalon which is an artistic depiction of the God.

And all theories call for making quick conclusions, if Anet released a big book of the gods, we wouldnt be having this discussion right now.


From the lore:



Lyssa

The twin goddesses of beauty and illusion, Lyssa is the patron god of the Mesmer profession. Many a spellcaster has fallen under the charms of these two, making it easy for them to choose to specialize in the mesmeric arts. Lyssa is usually portrayed in her natural state—a pair of twin, intertwined goddesses, back to back, no illusions or glamours involved. There are stories of young men stopping to gaze longingly at statues of the beautiful goddesses, only to forget themselves and die of thirst while simply looking on.

She's referred to as two people, and a pair, and twin. She's referred to as intertwined, i.e., each one wrapping her limbs around the other; she's not referred to as merged. Nowhere does it say anything about the statue representing her "true" form, merely that it portrays her natural state. Her natural state is two goddesses, not one merged goddess.

The carven vortex of the statue slants upward and cuts the other lighter figure off at the knee, just as it does with the dark figure. The figures emerge from the base, not each other.

You're making an unsupportable claim here, and I feel it's skewing your conclusions.

You're right that every mural and statue conflict. See my post above for why the murals can be assumed to be more accurate.

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 01:37
Now when you look at the scriptures, what do you notice. I notice that each statue shows the God appearing. Look, the scriptures say that Melandru comes out of a tree when she appears, and the statue shows that! Look, it says Grenth comes out of the underworld, and the statue shows that! Look it says balthazaar holds a grand sword covered in fire (favor), and wow, it does! It says that Lyssa has wings, and what do you know, the statue has wings. It shows Lyssa having two legs, and I see no reason why she shouldn't follow in the same tradition.

And that is why the statues are better depictions than the murals which all show different things btw. And remember that ToA was created by the gods, I'm sure that if Grenth has a bare face in the mural and the statue doesn't, we can believe the statue.

You're only argument against the statues is "Gods cant do the supernatural" which isnt very convincing on your part.

I looked up intertwined in the dictonary, and I am happy to say that my theory lives:laugh:

intertwine
One entry found for intertwine.

Main Entry: in·ter·twine
Pronunciation: -'twIn
Function: verb
transitive verb : to unite by twining one with another:

So intertwine means to unite by twining. What is twining?

Main Entry: twine
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): twined; twin·ing
transitive verb
1 a : to twist together b : to form by twisting :

So it seems that Lyssa+Lyss are one in the same afterall. Thank god for webster dictionary. You got the right definition for twine, but not intertwine. To twine is to twist, to intertwine is to twist until you are completely one person. And yes it makes sense. You twist clay together and what happens? It becomes one. So I looked it up, and by intertwined, Lyssa and Lyss/Lyssa2 are "inside" eachother, aka they're merged. So it seems that Lyssa1+Lyssa2 are merged together afterall. I assume that the murals are like the others, an unrealistic depiction of the gods.

But thank you for having that debate with me, you put up a good argument and I respect that.

Now I am convinced more than ever that there will be a main storyline involving Lyssa soon. She's so dynamic, and she's the least talked about of all the Gods. Hopefully in future chapters more questions about Lyssa will be answered. I am excited, myself.

Quintus Antonius
07-11-2006, 03:30
One big problem I see is that the Manuscripts say that this intertwining form is Lyssa's "natural form". Natural suggests that she is like that by design, rather than by any twist or punishment inflicted upon her. Also, why would she remain a goddess of the pantheon if she were being punished? Abaddon's crimes seem a bit petty compared to what you are saying Lyssa did and was punished for, yet Abaddon is kicked, and Lyssa remains.

Furthermore, as Ranger pointed out a few pages back, Janus is a dual natured god, but he is viewed as one person. Also, the Trinity of the Christian faith in a triune God, with three distinct entities making up one individual. In fact, the Hebrew text of Genesis uses a form of "we" that is singular, and a form of "I" that is plural (doesn't translate to English). And let's not get into Hinduism.

Now, in the Guild Wars world, it seems that the process that makes a person a god or goddess changes the person. If Lyssa had multiple personality disorder when she became a goddess, it is possible the process split her in two, creating twins. Or, if the gods were simply created/born as gods, she may naturally be this way (as the Manuscripts say oddly enough).

As for the Vabbians obsessing over Lyssa, well the Vabbians are an obsessive and indulgent people. The Ascalonians had a very vibrant Grenth cult, and Dwayna is widely worshipped by everyone, whereas the dwarves worship Balthazar (albeit by a different name) and the Kurzicks obsess over all the gods (even more so than the Vabbians). If we look at history as a template, it is no surprise that a rich, opulent, and indulgent culture like Vabbi claims to have divine origins. Almost every power that holds its power oligarchically like that says it has divine origin. The Romans say they are descended from Mars for instance, and the kings of ancient Europe as well as the Emperors of China claim to rule by divine right.

Zion Farbow
07-11-2006, 03:42
LOL wow awesome these mythologies are D: im just sayin im awed by u all :O

perhaps we can make a philosphical forum xD cuase i like philosphy ^_^

Gtompkins
07-11-2006, 04:09
One big problem I see is that the Manuscripts say that this intertwining form is Lyssa's "natural form". Natural suggests that she is like that by design, rather than by any twist or punishment inflicted upon her. Also, why would she remain a goddess of the pantheon if she were being punished? Abaddon's crimes seem a bit petty compared to what you are saying Lyssa did and was punished for, yet Abaddon is kicked, and Lyssa remains.



A good argument. You bring up points I did not consider. The only real reason why I think that they must've been separate was because Vabbian's dont have 2 heads, but maybe I am taking that too literally.

As for the natural form, I would consider Lyssa to be a whole different god than what she was before. She may perhaps take on the same name, but the second they were "intertwined" together, they became a whole new god.

As for "Why would she remain a godess of the pantheon" Well I say, did she? Lyssa was not one of the Gods who lived in Arah and it is likely that she only had a mere partnership with them. Neither was Grenth, if Lyssa's actions truely happened, I would understand why she might stay isolated along with Grenth. As for Abaddon doing less damage than Lyssa, I dont really agree with that. I'll make this little senario to try to summarize it.

Dwayna: Lyss, what were you thinking when you made these things?!? They just attacked another Forgotton Village. Shame on you!
*Merges Lyss and Lyssa*
Dwayna: There! That should teach you!

However with Abaddon, I see it more like this

Dwayna: Wtf is wrong with you Abaddon, are you trying to get us all killed? Don't play with those titans Abaddon, they're dangerous. Bad Abbadon! You just wiped out a city with those demons of yours. Abaddon please stop playing with those demons. Thats it Abaddon, you're going to the corner!
*Sends Abaddon into outcast*

Lyssa was probably pissed off at the gods. That is why she didn't live in Arah. Neither did Grenth. This is a senario for why the gods might not like Grenth very much.

Dwayna: Umm, did that Grenth kid just take Dhuum and outcast him? Wtf is wrong with him

Lyssa didn't get outcasted like Abaddon because she was being punished for a past mistake. Abaddon was outcasted by them because he kept "making mistakes" and wouldnt stop. I hope that helped explain some of it to you.

(This post is pure theory)

Quintus Antonius
07-11-2006, 04:22
That post is pure hypothesis, there's a difference. Theories are based on strong supporting evidence, hypotheses are formulated guesses.

Anywho, I had to chuckle at those conversations between the gods.

I've always theorized that Lyssa is essentially non-corporeal. Her muse is non-corporeal, and as the gods tend to reflect the nature they represent, Lyssa should be non-corporeal by definiton. However, due to the duel nature of beauty, illusion, and chaos (which she represents) the only way she can manifest herself is by taking on the form of two intertwining twins. Her scriptures actually reflect this.

Sable Phoenix
07-11-2006, 05:42
Now when you look at the scriptures, what do you notice. I notice that each statue shows the God appearing. Look, the scriptures say that Melandru comes out of a tree when she appears, and the statue shows that! Look, it says Grenth comes out of the underworld, and the statue shows that! Look it says balthazaar holds a grand sword covered in fire (favor), and wow, it does! It says that Lyssa has wings, and what do you know, the statue has wings. It shows Lyssa having two legs, and I see no reason why she shouldn't follow in the same tradition.

And that is why the statues are better depictions than the murals which all show different things btw. And remember that ToA was created by the gods, I'm sure that if Grenth has a bare face in the mural and the statue doesn't, we can believe the statue.

You're only argument against the statues is "Gods cant do the supernatural" which isnt very convincing on your part.

I looked up intertwined in the dictonary, and I am happy to say that my theory lives:laugh:

intertwine
One entry found for intertwine.

Main Entry: in·ter·twine
Pronunciation: -'twIn
Function: verb
transitive verb : to unite by twining one with another:

So intertwine means to unite by twining. What is twining?

Main Entry: twine
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): twined; twin·ing
transitive verb
1 a : to twist together b : to form by twisting :

So it seems that Lyssa+Lyss are one in the same afterall. Thank god for webster dictionary. You got the right definition for twine, but not intertwine. To twine is to twist, to intertwine is to twist until you are completely one person. And yes it makes sense. You twist clay together and what happens? It becomes one. So I looked it up, and by intertwined, Lyssa and Lyss/Lyssa2 are "inside" eachother, aka they're merged. So it seems that Lyssa1+Lyssa2 are merged together afterall. I assume that the murals are like the others, an unrealistic depiction of the gods.

But thank you for having that debate with me, you put up a good argument and I respect that.

Now I am convinced more than ever that there will be a main storyline involving Lyssa soon. She's so dynamic, and she's the least talked about of all the Gods. Hopefully in future chapters more questions about Lyssa will be answered. I am excited, myself.


Look, I'm not going to argue every little detail with you. You're wrong that I'm arguing gods can't do supernatural things. You're also extrapolating a definition from Webster's that is not given. But we could go around in circles forever and not get anywhere. The reason for this is, from what I can tell, that you're trying to make the evidence fit your hypothesis, rather than the other way around, which is the point when objectivity goes out the window and it becomes all about defending your belief. So I'll elucidate the problems I have with your scenario by applying Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) to excise the pillars one by one, and leave it at that.

Your first pillar is that there is a god that is never mentioned by name in any of the game lore, any quest, any mission -- Lyssa's twin sister Lyss. The existence of this god is extrapolated only from three names mentioned in Nightfall; the Fountain of Lyss, the Mirror of Lyss, and the Festival of Lyss. So here's our first application of the razor. Either we accept that the game lore has been omitting the existence of a major diety up to this point, or we assume that Lyss in fact refers to something besides a specific god. The Razor would indicate that the second option is more likely.

You posit that this previously unnamed Lyss diety created humanity, and was then punished for doing so by being partially merged with her sister Lyssa. This raises the questions: why would the diety create humanity in the first place?; and, if being merged was such a punishment, why was it inflicted on her innocent sister as well? What did Lyssa do to deserve such punishment? Why was she not simply banished like Abaddon was? On the other hand, the Vabbians claim to have been created by Lyssa. Given that they never mention this Lyss by name, we must assume they are either telling the truth, are lying, or are ignorant of the truth. Since the name of Lyss is plastered all over their culture, ignorance of the truth is preposterous. On the other hand, there is no indication at any point that the Vabbians are lying, nor is there any indication that they would benefit by doing so. Therefore, Occam's Razor indicates that the Vabbians are most likely telling the truth, and that this option is more likely than the Lyss diety creating them.

You are assuming that Lyss refers to a person. The only name that truly could indicate this is the Festival of Lyss; festivals can be named after places, events, times/seasons, or people. However, given that there are also places named Lyss (Mirror of Lyss, Fountain of Lyss), it is more likely that Lyss refers to an actual location, either a real physical location or perhaps the realm of Lyssa herself. So our options are either that Lyss refers to a place, or to a hitherto unnamed diety who was partially merged with Lyssa and is now never spoken of by name. Occam's Razor favors the first option.

Now, you posit that Lyss and Lyssa were incompletely merged, and are in fact conjoined at the waist, consisting of two torsos atop one pelvis and pair of legs. You arrive at this largely because of all of your previous reasoning. Lyssa is spoken of as being two, twin, and a pair in the lore, as I've previously demonstrated. Also, she is repeatedly depicted as having two separate bodies, not only in the Ascolonian murals, but in the Kournan murals found here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/sablephoenix/Guild%20Wars/goddesses.jpg

An interesting aside: Dwayna, turning away from the viewer, and Melandru, reclining nymphlike, both have complete legs, like the Ascalonian painted versions; however unlike the Ascalonian versions they're both nude, save for a girdle of leaves or branches around Melandru's waist. I've yet to determine the significance of this, if any. However, I include them here to show that the preponderance of the in-game visualizations of the goddesses indicate they indeed have complete bodies, despite what their statues depict.

As for the "tear" on the side of the figures of the Lyssa shrine, where they are supposed to join, I'm sorry, but I don't see any such thing. I can only assume you are projecting your hypothesis onto the visuals in order to support that hypothesis.

So, our options here: we can either accept the lore as being correct at face value when it indicates that Lyssa is in fact one entity with two separate bodies, or accept the entirety of your hypothesis to justify that Lyssa is two separate entities conjoined at the waist. The Razor indicates that the first option is more likely.

A lot of your arguments depend upon the idea that the lore of the game, whether textual or graphical, is in fact false or incomplete. And this is where the final application of the Razor comes in. We can either believe that your scenario is correct and that the lore is false or incomplete after all, or that your contradictions with the lore are in fact wrong themselves. Given that ANet's design team doubtless spent many many hours to create a cohesive universe, and that they would gain nothing from decieving the players who would read their carefully crafted world, the Razor indicates that the second option is more likely.

As for the definitions of "twine" and "intertwine", yes, those definitions are accurate, but your interpretation of them is not accurate. When "intertwining" refers to human limbs it almost always has a sexual connotation of some sort; while that isn't the case with Lyssa, it's still the closest one can get to another person, yet even then each individual remains an individual. You seem to want to say that the definition of twining necessarily indicates that the components being intertwined must lose their individuality to become part of one whole. This is not so. You may twine thread to make a rope; you may twine hair to make a braid; yet the individual strands, while creating a whole, single rope, remain individual strands.

This is why I can't accept your scenario; it is overly complex, because depends upon too much of the game lore actually being false when there's no indication that the lore is anything of the sort, and it relies on unsupported leaps of logic.

Longasc
07-11-2006, 11:58
Too much speculation.

Of course it could be like that. But there is zero evidence that Lyss and Lyssa fused into two gods.

It could as well be that Lyss is the poetic version of Lyssa. Apollo(n) is often refered to as Apoll as well, just to fit into Hexameters and other rhyme schemes.

Empraim Wainwright
07-11-2006, 18:14
I have been reading the thread, some of it I agree with and some of it I dont.
My main char is an ele/necro and a devoted follower of Lyssa (yes I may be a freak of nature :grin: ), and would like to share my 2cents


I've always theorized that Lyssa is essentially non-corporeal. Her muse is non-corporeal, and as the gods tend to reflect the nature they represent, Lyssa should be non-corporeal by definiton. However, due to the duel nature of beauty, illusion, and chaos (which she represents) the only way she can manifest herself is by taking on the form of two intertwining twins. Her scriptures actually reflect this.
Agreed. Lyssa IS chaos, beauty and illusion.
Being that her nature is as it is, she can take on the apperance of anything, and a good way to show this (for us mere mortals) and a good way for artists to show this is as 'two intertwining twins': beautiful, chaotic and enigmatic...

*goes back to the shadows for more observation. :smiley:

EDIT: I also agree with this:

It could as well be that Lyss is the poetic version of Lyssa. Apollo(n) is often refered to as Apoll as well, just to fit into Hexameters and other rhyme schemes.

Ranger Nietzsche
07-11-2006, 18:45
Too much speculation.

Of course it could be like that. But there is zero evidence that Lyss and Lyssa fused into two gods.

It could as well be that Lyss is the poetic version of Lyssa. Apollo(n) is often refered to as Apoll as well, just to fit into Hexameters and other rhyme schemes.

Glad to see someone else agrees with me. "Lyss" is clearly a derivative of "Lyssa" either grammatically or poetically.

I tend to think grammatically but thats because of my studies in Latin and Russian.

To the OP: As for Vabbians not having their own language, you neglected to respond to the idea that it could have been a holdover from an older language taht was assimilated when Elona was united as a continent. THere is precedent for this as Canthan has an old tongue that is very very different from teh language that any character speaks in game.

Also, I don't believe that we can say every character in teh game speaks the same language, that claim belongs in the game mechanic. I could just as easily say that every character in guildwars speaks "Bork!" since all I have to do is change the language function to make that happen.

The main problem is the lack of supporting evidence. Some thing this large needs more than semantics and a statue to be any more than a hypothesis. Theories need to be backed up by a SIGNIFICANT amount of evidence. What you have here is not that.


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
the·o·ry (th-r, thîr) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "theory" [P]
n. pl. the·o·ries

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. <<<<<< This is what you have.

Quintus Antonius
07-11-2006, 19:49
Ranger, you may want to point out that the highlighted defintion of "theory" which you quoted is the colloquial slang and widely misused definition. It is not the scientific defintion of a theory.

Ranger Nietzsche
07-11-2006, 21:13
Correct QA. It was essentially a sarcastic remark about his "theory" only being one in that colloquial sense and not a scientific one.

Also, I took a trip to the giant statue of Lyssa in the Grand Court of Sebelkeh today. I believe I have found legs! Either way this pretty much shows that whether the statue shows one growing out of the other is up to who views it and can't be considered conclusive evidence.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/640/lyssastatuevb9.th.png (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lyssastatuevb9.png)

Laibeus Lord
09-11-2006, 04:17
Very informative!!!

Great job!!

aptaleonII
09-11-2006, 17:16
The Great Dwarf is Balthazar.
This has not been proven, it is still a theory, no matter how much evidence it has, it shouldn't be posted as plain fact until it is.


Menzies was the god of fire
This information has little backing. Menzies is never even called a "god" as such, just "lord of destruction", and he seems to have little to do with fire.


Yes, Lyssa is a dichotomy of two godesses as one. However, this to me seems inherent as a god of Chaos and Illusion. I see no reason to believe she was ever two people, any more than there is reason to belive that the Romans thought Janus was two people.
I agree with this entirely. Just like Janus in theory and being, just like "Vizu" and "Vizunah Square" in name- names have many variations in many cultures, and this has simply been employed in Factions and Nightfall.

Really sorry if i seem to be flaming here, that's not how i hope to come across, i'm new to these particular forums is all. so, uh Hi as well :P

teh Monkeys
09-11-2006, 19:16
You're a man after my own heart already. :p

I mean, uhm, yes, Janus. So forth.

Sir Jack
09-11-2006, 19:48
Err, I think it's more some sort of Vabbian dialect rather then the theory the OP posted. Vabbians tend to leave the last letter out if it's a voul (?? a, e, i , o u, dunno exactly, non-English) from time to time. They also speak of things like "the great forum of Vaab".

Scutilla
15-11-2006, 23:05
An interesting aside: Dwayna, turning away from the viewer, and Melandru, reclining nymphlike, both have complete legs, like the Ascalonian painted versions; however unlike the Ascalonian versions they're both nude, save for a girdle of leaves or branches around Melandru's waist. I've yet to determine the significance of this, if any. However, I include them here to show that the preponderance of the in-game visualizations of the goddesses indicate they indeed have complete bodies, despite what their statues depict.
I've always wanted to examine those murals up-close- from the glimpse we catch in Consulate Docks they seem considerably different from any other portrayal of the gods we're used to seeing. Blast you Varesh and your destroying one-of-a-kind works of art just to make a point :tongue:

jvxmtg
16-11-2006, 02:13
I always believe that the "twin" of Lyssa is nothing but an illusion. As a goddess of Beauty, it's safe to say that she has a narcissist attitude and the "twin" is merely a mirror image of herself and humans only sees the mirror image, which is an illusion that humans believe a "twin" actually exists.

You cannot really based anything in graven images since those images are simply based on the sculptor's perception of the gods. When Leonardo DaVinci drew the Last Supper, everyone started to believe that those are the faces of Jesus and His apostles...on the contrary, history shows that Jesus, as a ***, cannot have a white toned skin.

In the same way, if the statue of the gods shows something, it's not a fact, it's merely an assumption of the sculptor.

About "Lyss". I believe that the name "Lyss" is used to call a place and not the goddess herself. Or it can also be the title given to those who follow Lyssa, just as those who follows Christ are called Christians.

Lyssa is just one god, but humans sees her as "twin" but given that she's a god of Chaos, Illusion and Beauty, the "twin" can, and even more posibly be just an illusion.

False Visage
16-11-2006, 15:25
I'd say Lyssa's true aspects are choas, beauty and illusion, the fact that players see the illusion of a real body would only further support that. All three are somewhat related to each other, beauty and illusion for sure.

zeeZer
16-11-2006, 21:27
I always believe that the "twin" of Lyssa is nothing but an illusion. As a goddess of Beauty, it's safe to say that she has a narcissist attitude and the "twin" is merely a mirror image of herself and humans only sees the mirror image, which is an illusion that humans believe a "twin" actually exists.
[...] (Plus all the other stuff he said)
I totally agree with you.


And it was, that a stranger came to the village of Wren seeking shelter and employment. Though young in years, her body was stooped and twisted, her flesh eaten by disease.

"Ye have the mark of plague all upon ye, said the citizen named Gallrick. Leave this place lest you sicken our people."

"I've lost my family and my home, cried the desperate woman. Have you no heart?"

Yet each person, in turn, did look away.

Then from the crowd came a young woman, Sara. She looked upon the woman with pity. "If you need help," said Sara, "I will give it." And Sara did approach the gnarled, bent woman and did offer her a helping hand.

Then the sickened woman pulled from her body the robes of plague, revealing Herself to be the goddess Lyssa.

The people of Wren fell on their knees, begging for Lyssa's mercy. But lifting Sara gently, saith She, "True beauty is measured not by appearance but by actions and deeds. Many have eyes, but few have seen. Of all here, you saw the beauty behind the illusion. And you alone shall be blessed with My gifts."

Scriptures of Lyssa: 45 BE
Lyssa is both, the beauty, and the illusion (of the sick, twisted woman), which is the reason for her to be displayed as two persons.

Her statue shows these two sides - the beauty (wearing the black dress) behind the illusion (the naked body with scars).

Empraim Wainwright
17-01-2007, 14:11
A bit more speculation on the nature of Lyssa from my side.
I have been musing over the nature of Lyssa.
As Quintus Antonius have already said…

I've always theorized that Lyssa is essentially non-corporeal. Her muse is non-corporeal, and as the gods tend to reflect the nature they represent, Lyssa should be non-corporeal by definiton. However, due to the duel nature of beauty, illusion, and chaos (which she represents) the only way she can manifest herself is by taking on the form of two intertwining twins. Her scriptures actually reflect this.
…Lyssa is illusion, and chaos.
Her chaotic nature is clearly shown in her statue as the 'two intertwining twins', beautiful, chaotic and enigmatic…
The nature of illusion is a combination of what really exists (the actual) and what could be (the potential), for without the actual there could not be the image of the potential.
So combined the actual and the potential makes the illusion.
Could it be that “the twins” shown are in fact ‘the actual & the potential’ entwined?
So the statue is showing both her beauty and her illusionary and chaotic nature.
Lyssa is one god, but her nature is to be more than one at the same time.

Quintus Antonius
17-01-2007, 14:24
I think that the Twins could represent almost any opposing force, and aren't just a single and specific set of two. So yes, "actual and potential", "beauty and illusion"', maybe even "good and evil" could all be represented by Lyssa's dual-nature.

superiorrunes
18-01-2007, 01:34
One thing I've always thought the twin depiction of Lyssa had to do with was the narcisism of being the god of beauty and illusion. i find it interesting that guildwars.com describes her statue as depicting just the opposite. quote: "Lyssa is usually portrayed in her natural state ... no illusions or glamours involved." No illusions? No glamours? Quite the contrary. The illusion is that this "twin" god is absolutely in love with herself. (see: many statues throughout Tyria depicting lyssa caressing herself sensually) Funny how this narcissistic god's followers include thespians, the glamourous vabbians, mesmers, and other sufferers of inflated egos.

Degas
18-01-2007, 14:18
Well, just noting something the OP has wrong... Abaddon doesn't seem to be one of the first gods...

I don't have the screenshot here, I have it at home, but if you read the reward from The Apostate quest, it should be clear:

"You may have wondered why I was being chased so vehemently by Abaddon's hunters, and I believe it is as simple as this: I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he maybe supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.
Use this knowledge for your benefit. "

Extracted from guildwiki

It also though, supports your theory of the "mantles" and energy absorption by other gods

superiorrunes
20-01-2007, 23:08
Well, just noting something the OP has wrong... Abaddon doesn't seem to be one of the first gods...
I don't have the screenshot here, I have it at home, but if you read the reward from The Apostate quest, it should be clear



Not to say i don't agree that this is probably the case, but i wouldnt trust this NPC too much, he is afterall the APOSTATE. lol, apostates, by definition, are traitors, and may also be slanderous.

Quintus Antonius
21-01-2007, 02:15
But he is also a Margonite. So in that context he is betraying Abaddon.

Degas
22-01-2007, 14:47
But he is also a Margonite. So in that context he is betraying Abaddon.

Which is in fact what happens in the quest, the guy is thought as a betrayer to Abaddon because of this belief and his writings

Quintus Antonius
22-01-2007, 16:22
Yup, exactly. That's why he is named the Apostate.