View Full Version : Heroway Yea or Nay in HA?
Parker Bsb
07-11-2006, 18:12
For clarity's sake bots = hench or heros not botting as in what anet ban's you for doing
If this topic gets anywhere near as full of trolling / flaming as the last one I will be handing out bans instead of deleting the account.
Just to recap the arguments
Pro-Heroway:
Easy to set-up.
No dealing with elitist players and rank issues.
Doesn't take 1+ hrs to form a group
Easy testing of new builds/ideas (refer to points 1 and 3)
Arguably the hench are better than 1/2 the players in HA currently
Anti-Heroway:
PvP should have limited AI occurences.
Fightning AI is boring and feels like PvE.
People should have to network to form groups.
It's not allowed in other arenas it should not be allowed in HA.
AI is not interesting to VS (see points 1 and 2).
Please feel free to discuss - but bear in mind the rules (http://forums.gwonline.net/rules) <-- that's a link to them incase you didn't catch that...
shadow machine
07-11-2006, 18:45
too late for a poll everyone i know that did halls quit after the update. ai has no place in PvP
i don't get these polls...
who do they represent? the people that take part in it, no more no less.
who knows if this represents the playerbase? chances are it does not.
some people don't like bots, some people do. whoever mobilizes more voters wins the poll. big deal.
augustgrace
07-11-2006, 20:09
The major problem with HA right now, is that many people won't even consider grouping with you unless you have rank. But the only way to gain rank is to play HA... So i support the use of heros/henches in HA until an alternative way to gain the first 2-3 ranks of fame is instituted.
Why not reward fame for flawless victorys, and victorys against better ranked guilds in GvG?
Nurse With Wound
07-11-2006, 20:54
AI has no place in PVP arenas, because it contradicts Player vs Player. In fact, its the opposite of it. HEROES OUT OF HA.
Parker Bsb
07-11-2006, 21:10
Personally I couldn't agree more - AI doesn't belong in the PvP setting altho I can completley understand the difficulties of grouping which is why I think allowing 2 bots per team is a fair tradeoff. You still need to "do the leg work" to get into a team but if you can't fill those last 2 slots it's not as big a deal.
BTW augustgrace - why dont these people group with other "new/non-ranked" HAers? Surley if I was r0 I wouldn't be advertising R3 Grp LF monk.
To be honest the poll has no relation to Anet - it's more for personal curiosoty than anything.
[off topic]
Granted a poll makes it easier for someone like Gaile to see where the community stands but it really does nothing. Sumxone - a statistical representative of a population does nothing? I think I heard politicians, advertising agencies and just about every major business just fall crashing to the ground. [/off topic]
[off topic]
Granted a poll makes it easier for someone like Gaile to see where the community stands but it really does nothing. Sumxone - a statistical representative of a population does nothing? I think I heard politicians, advertising agencies and just about every major business just fall crashing to the ground. [/off topic]
well, if you wanted a statistical representative, you had make sure to question representatives of all groups that inhabit GW.
advertising agencies and politicians make sure to do that. what you do, is making a poll in a part of this forum, that (what i think) only a few of these or only special groups visit.
it's like making a political survey at a republican rally.
so if you wanted unbiased results, you had to make the poll right on the log on screen of guild wars. but doing it this way here, the results will be biased and will not represent the GW population.
who knows about this poll? at least make a news post on the gwonline site. :wink:
DoomFrost
07-11-2006, 21:39
I've already stated my opinions in a previous thread. So all I'm going to say is that Heros and Hench should stay in HA.
Shouldn't the best be allowed? If AI heroes are better than real people, they should be allowed entrance to HA.
It is a bit disheartening to me, though. The AI is pretty stupid, but they can beat human opponents with ease. They are not stronger or faster or a higher level.
I just hate spending my gaming time waiting around to form a freaking group. I want to play!
At first I was totally against the Heroes in HA. Since then, I've calmed down in my feelings and think that at least two] human players should be involved in a team. Henchman have always been there and it does help lower ranks get "players". I never cared about Henchway, so why should I get worked up over heroeway? I dont think HA is going back to 8v8 so we're stuck with 2-man henchway forever. If they can two-man Hench or heroe, so be it.
I do feel stongly they should nerf the solo HA'ing.
The major problem with HA right now, is that many people won't even consider grouping with you unless you have rank. But the only way to gain rank is to play HA...
Everyone ranked completely understands this. Afterall, everyone starts out at rank 0. This has been explained again and again (<--Im not trying to get smart with that comment). Anyways, it's still very possible to get teams being at rank 0, 1, and 2. Granted, it takes a little work, but still very possible. Social networking is the key and when you play with somone you like, add them to friends list. Chances are you'll rank up together if you continue playing HA together, you'll be a strong team. PUG'ing is not the preferable route to go in HA. Friends and guildies will always make the stongest teams. GL ! :grin:
HA is fine. If people want to use heroes, let them. There's nothing wrong with it, I don't even see why this poll is here. It's not a concern.
Stephanus Aurelius
08-11-2006, 00:02
AI has no place in PVP arenas, because it contradicts Player vs Player. In fact, its the opposite of it. HEROES OUT OF HA.
I really don't care one way or the other, but Heros are not 100% AI. Though they have initial AI programming, the player can over ride those and tell the Hero what skills to execute and in what order. The player also has say as to what skills the Heroes have in their skill bar thus turning it back into player versus Player. So to say that it contradicts PVP is not really true. Granted if the player is trying to control his character plus one, two, or three Heroes he/she will be tapped...:shocked: . But that's their problem not mine.
Granted a poll makes it easier for someone like Gaile to see where the community stands but it really does nothing. Sumxone - a statistical representative of a population does nothing? I think I heard politicians, advertising agencies and just about every major business just fall crashing to the ground.
A poll like this, based in a forum not populated by many real HA players (as if there are any left) tells Gaile that the "majority" supports it, where the majority is PvE'rs. I really hope they don't take these polls into consideration in deciding whether to keep heroes or not. Sumxone is actually right. You'd need to put the poll where the real PvPers will see it as well.
AI has no place in PVP arenas, because it contradicts Player vs Player. In fact, its the opposite of it. HEROES OUT OF HA.
Yeah, that basically sums it up in the simpliest way.
melandrus elite
08-11-2006, 02:41
HA just got a heroway nerf I love it now those people who use heroes because they are much too lazy to find a group can't do it anymore! Happy trails heroes. :-P
ImSoToast
08-11-2006, 03:01
Shouldn't the best be allowed? If AI heroes are better than real people, they should be allowed entrance to HA.
It is a bit disheartening to me, though. The AI is pretty stupid, but they can beat human opponents with ease. They are not stronger or faster or a higher level.
I just hate spending my gaming time waiting around to form a freaking group. I want to play!
Yes, but don't forget that 4 henchies were always available to use, but they sucked and still kinda do. The reason that heroes are sooo viable and good now is because not only do you chose their build/skills but you can totally control every spell they cast, how and when. Just disable the slots and violla you have a multitaskers dream come true. Dang any and I mean any good starcraft or warcraft player will be able to beat a below average team almost always. Shoot with this absolute control over heroes, its almost like giving a player four chars to control. This too me is a huge advantage to quite a few vidoegamers who are good at multitasking and have good reflexes.
ImSoToast
08-11-2006, 03:03
I really don't care one way or the other, but Heros are not 100% AI. Though they have initial AI programming, the player can over ride those and tell the Hero what skills to execute and in what order. The player also has say as to what skills the Heroes have in their skill bar thus turning it back into player versus Player. So to say that it contradicts PVP is not really true. Granted if the player is trying to control his character plus one, two, or three Heroes he/she will be tapped...:shocked: . But that's their problem not mine.
Look at my above post please. Like I said this if anything is a huge advantage for any1 who can multitask and has good reflexes. Think about it now you can spike with four players and have almost perfect timing everytme.
waht nerf to heroeway u talking about??
nightrunner
08-11-2006, 04:04
Easy to set-up.
No dealing with elitist players and rank issues.
Doesn't take 1+ hrs to form a group
Easy testing of new builds/ideas (refer to points 1 and 3)
Arguably the hench are better than 1/2 the players in HA currently
These are all true. But Anet shouldn't be ruining gameplay to fix group formation, they should make a better LFG system instead.
I say limit it 2 bots/heroes.
After that, if my first choice was negated would be Leave it be as it is right now.
HA just got a heroway nerf I love it now those people who use heroes because they are much too lazy to find a group can't do it anymore! Happy trails heroes. :-PWhat the hell is he rambling over?
Stephanus Aurelius
08-11-2006, 05:32
:unimpressed:
Look at my above post please. Like I said this if anything is a huge advantage for any1 who can multitask and has good reflexes. Think about it now you can spike with four players and have almost perfect timing everytme.
waht nerf to heroeway u talking about??
That being said you still haven't taken the PVP out of the game you've just increased have you not? This mean you had better be better than that one person who can control multiple heroes at once. And create a stratagy and build that is better than his. Like I said I really don't care either way :unimpressed:.
Domina Spellbinder
08-11-2006, 09:07
If this poll had been put up a week or two ago it would've had great responses... As it is now most of those I know who liked HA moved on to GvG or back to pve. Just go to the HA districts to see how little of those districts now remain.
Parker Bsb
08-11-2006, 12:34
I closed a thread because of it was getting out of hand. The poll is not so important but I felt a directed discussion on Heroway would be better than what the last thread was reduced to. Stop complaining about the poll - as I said it's more or less for curiosity's sake.
If you don't have anything to discuss about heroway you are really just wasting a post.
Psychotic Death X
08-11-2006, 12:49
perhaps only allowing players of lower rank would make it better for everyone in general. Say that once you reached r2 you were forced to play with other players, as it should be.
The Heroes should be used to introduce people into HA and not used as an intirely new basis for HA.
Well thats my thoughts anyway.
A lot of reviews on GW have mentioned the rather fine PVP content and how it pits player/team skill against each other...and that as a last resort the odd henchie can be dragged along.
Guildwars had quite a decent PvP reputation...when in comparison to some other games that have PvP content....ppl would buy GW just to take part in the PvP...be it RA/TA or HA
The inclusion of Heroes into HA has...imho ruined it!
Sure there are more ppl having a dabble...because you dont have to do anything to form a build anymore. ..just load up your Searing Flame heroes and some heals...and in you go.
That makes the experience for those ppl wanting to try HA simpler...but doesnt mean the quality and content of PvP has been improved.
HA used to have a reasonably rigid set of rules that most ppl adhered to...the standard builds were fairly set in stone(with all the room for manouver you wanted)...the leader of the team called the shots(friendslist was important)...on the whole ppl behaved themselves(or were put right).....HA (hardly) ever reduced to the poor behaviour of RA or TA.
Not anymore...there all in there now...with 3 heroes, 2 hench, an ego the size of Belgium and no respect for the dead!
Well done Anet...got some PVEers and new account players into HA...but in the process ruined the experience for those wanting to PVP....I hope they enjoy the 2 hour kiting, chat abuse, rage quitting, "Oh a searing Flame Zhed...havent seen one of them before..
Just my opinion.
Oh Parky dont clout me around the ears with that stick of yours.
thedrjay
08-11-2006, 13:43
There's a fricking Hero vs Hero Arena. Why bother coming to HA when you have a venue specifically set up for Hero battles? It's a pox on the face of HA and a slap in the face to the HA community that continued to play prior to the 6 v 6 change. Now most HA'ers have moved away from there due to the nature of the current people playing.
JodoKast
08-11-2006, 14:06
There's a fricking Hero vs Hero Arena. Why bother coming to HA when you have a venue specifically set up for Hero battles?
The answer to that question is obvious, there is a lot of incentive to play in HA instead of Heroes battles:
- More faction per win/kill in HA so unlocks skills much faster
- Fame system
- Possibility to get items in HoH
- More maps, and different game mechanisms
- Consecutive matches
- Not limited to 1v1
- More challenge
Create some sort of fame track with a title and emote in HvH, add maps, game mechanisms, consecutive matches and item reward and people will move there instead of HA. As it stands, there is very limited reason to go to HvH (at least you can grind glad points in RA)
The capture point system is quite nice and that sort of mechanism should be included into the HA map rotation in my opinion, but alone it does not make Hero v Hero arena any attractive.
As for why playing with heroes rather than players, my personnal reason is time. I don't have time to actively forge a network of people (i'm sometimes playing with alliance mates but we still have relatively low activity) and i don't currently have the time to spend setting up pug groups either. I wouldn't play HA 6v6 because of time constraints, now at least i am able to play it in a way.
Quintus Antonius
08-11-2006, 14:34
I choose the "limit to 2 or fewer". Heroes are essentially programmable henchmen, but as others have said, PvP, HA especially, has essentially become a 1-player game with two teams of usually one or two people just using heroes and henchmen. It really does hurt the concept of PvP. However, I understand that sometimes you can't find a player, and need to fill in a spot with a hero or henchman, and as such, I don't think they should be completely done away with, just limited.
These are all true. But Anet shouldn't be ruining gameplay to fix group formation, they should make a better LFG system instead.
To Anet, a LFG system makes too much sense.
The answer to that question is obvious, there is a lot of incentive to play in HA instead of Heroes battles:
- More faction per win/kill in HA so unlocks skills much faster
- Fame system
- Possibility to get items in HoH
- More maps, and different game mechanisms
- Consecutive matches
- Not limited to 1v1
- More challenge
Create some sort of fame track with a title and emote in HvH, add maps, game mechanisms, consecutive matches and item reward and people will move there instead of HA. As it stands, there is very limited reason to go to HvH (at least you can grind glad points in RA)
The capture point system is quite nice and that sort of mechanism should be included into the HA map rotation in my opinion, but alone it does not make Hero v Hero arena any attractive.
As for why playing with heroes rather than players, my personnal reason is time. I don't have time to actively forge a network of people (i'm sometimes playing with alliance mates but we still have relatively low activity) and i don't currently have the time to spend setting up pug groups either. I wouldn't play HA 6v6 because of time constraints, now at least i am able to play it in a way.
Then anet should have made HvH better. Throwing an arena in with no point to play it was stupid of them (which happens quite often.)
If you don't have time to play HA, you really shouldn't be there. It USED to be where you needed time and coordination to play. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, they pretty much took that away.
Why not reward fame for flawless victorys, and victorys against better ranked guilds in GvG?Because rank is a HA title. Champion is GvG title. It should be kept that way.
If I need to pug for some reason, I'll easily take a champion instead of a r9 player.
thedrjay
08-11-2006, 18:20
Because rank is a HA title. Champion is GvG title. It should be kept that way.
If I need to pug for some reason, I'll easily take a champion instead of a r9 player.
I would prefer the rank 9 player if playing in HA, as that is the enviroment the player is experienced in.
JodoKast
08-11-2006, 18:45
If you don't have time to play HA, you really shouldn't be there. It USED to be where you needed time and coordination to play. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, they pretty much took that away.
Sorry if i sound personnal but who are you to arbitrarly decreet that i shouldn't be playing HA ? Where is "HA should take time and coordination" written in the rules, how is it implemented in the game ?
This being said, without time and coordination, i have no chance to be competitive in HA, but that doesn't mean i'm not allowed to access it.
Its funny how people are defending now what they have been watching die for at least a year. I would have some pitty or even a shed of respect for the poster who wants to kick heroes out of HA if they been trying to improve the community of HA for the past year. But I'm pretty sure that isn't the case...tears that come from a crocodile doesn't count as tears now do they.
shadow machine
08-11-2006, 19:00
perhaps only allowing players of lower rank would make it better for everyone in general. Say that once you reached r2 you were forced to play with other players, as it should be.
The Heroes should be used to introduce people into HA and not used as an intirely new basis for HA.
Well thats my thoughts anyway.
this could be acceptable
something like -
r1 you can enter solo with all AI
r2 you have to have 3 real people
r3 you have to have 6 real people
i still think Ai does not belong in PvP
thedrjay
08-11-2006, 19:19
Its funny how people are defending now what they have been watching die for at least a year. I would have some pitty or even a shed of respect for the poster who wants to kick heroes out of HA if they been trying to improve the community of HA for the past year. But I'm pretty sure that isn't the case...tears that come from a crocodile doesn't count as tears now do they.
Why don't you tell us about your greatness and how out of the kindness of your heart, you helped people in the game.
HA players are trying to at restore a facet of the game that has been destroyed in the span of 6 weeks. They are voicing their concerns over what has happened and how an area that promoted coordination with a large group of people, real strategies, etc... has disintegrated to 1 real person and 5 heroes facing the same.
Why don't you tell us about your greatness and how out of the kindness of your heart, you helped people in the game.
HA players are trying to at restore a facet of the game that has been destroyed in the span of 6 weeks. They are voicing their concerns over what has happened and how an area that promoted coordination with a large group of people, real strategies, etc... has disintegrated to 1 real person and 5 heroes facing the same.
I think we playing in a different universe. The HA I know promoted little coordination, and barely any strategy to speak of for quite some time(ever heard of iway?). Lol why should I tell you how many people with oldy configured builds who I gave advice to when heroway doesn't bother me at all? I can't really give you an exact number on how many people I ignored (10 maybe 100 thousand?) but then again I'm not even bothered when the same person I booted from my group is forming a team of 3heroes/2henchmen. But the thing is...you are.
CougChaos
08-11-2006, 20:25
this could be acceptable
something like -
r1 you can enter solo with all AI
r2 you have to have 3 real people
r3 you have to have 6 real people
i still think Ai does not belong in PvP
How about:
hero's/hench share fame/faction. Bring an all hench team into PVP and you get 1/6th the reward. Want fame? Well what if you could not get fame if hench outnumbered real people? Sure you can go in with a all hench team but you won't earn much faction and you'd never get fame.
That way you could use 2 hero's/hench if you really needed to but any more than that you wouldn't get fame and your faction would be halved.
What if you got reduced faction for a hench kill?
B Ephekt
08-11-2006, 21:20
this could be acceptable
something like -
r1 you can enter solo with all AI
r2 you have to have 3 real people
r3 you have to have 6 real people
Why? Rank already means absolutely nothing unless you're brand new to tombs and have to rely of horrible PUGs. The players who actually want to rank up make friends and form groups with them, or start their own PUG groups, they don't sit around for hours spamming "LFG." I'm sorry but I can't really feel sorry for players who put absolutely no effort into starting out in PvP.
NPCs should not play a major part in Player vs. Player combat, regardless of how many new players it might help. You simply should not be able to enter PvP with more NPCs in your party than real people. 1-2 NPCs, sure, why not, but 1 real person and 5 NPCs is a goddamn joke.
There needs to be a line where between helping new PvPers and turning PvP into NPC battles.
thedrjay
08-11-2006, 21:23
I think we playing in a different universe. The HA I know promoted little coordination, and barely any strategy to speak of for quite some time(ever heard of iway?). Lol why should I tell you how many people with oldy configured builds who I gave advice to when heroway doesn't bother me at all? I can't really give you an exact number on how many people I ignored (10 maybe 100 thousand?) but then again I'm not even bothered when the same person I booted from my group is forming a team of 3heroes/2henchmen. But the thing is...you are.
Why is it that every person who supposedly thinks they know about HA mentions IWAY. You apparently didn't do much HA until IWAY first came out, then left HA to do GvG or PvE afterwards and rarely looked to see what the HA metagame was. Your ignorance about HA is showing.
Oh, you did know that in it's later incarnations IWAY did require coordination and strategy to run successfully as it changed from the 6 warrior varient to the 3-4 warrior version after being heavily modded multiple times.
It bothers me that people are not learning anything about PvP except how to plug in skills they saw in observer mode and telling their NPC's what to do. It dumbs down HA.
DreamWind
08-11-2006, 23:11
Why is it that every person who supposedly thinks they know about HA mentions IWAY.
Because Iway dominated Tombs/HA for over a year maybe? Iway was the only reason that 90% of the players in HA even got a group in the first place. I've been playing Tombs/HA for over a year. I loved the 6v6 change. Everybody knows HA was getting boring as hell so a change was made. The heros in HA while fun to some people, is definately destroying the experience for many others. So its really hard to say.
I voted for make it a limit of 2 or so. I would vote for remove them completely from HA if HvH battles had better rewards though. As it stands now, HvH are crap because you are much better of going to HA with your heroes because you actually get something out of it (fame, more faction, chance at golds, etc).
Oh, you did know that in it's later incarnations IWAY did require coordination and strategy to run successfully as it changed from the 6 warrior varient to the 3-4 warrior version after being heavily modded multiple times.
???
Who cares???
Pretty much.... :-/
I dont care what version of IWAY you ran... or if you "only did it for the last 1000 fame of your rank XX"... 99% of the people who regularly played that garbage have about as much guild wars skill as a 3 toed sloth trying to play atari... just doesnt work out so well... Vimway took a lot of skill too... PLX... Out of all the lame gimic builds EoE bomb took by far the most skill which is prolly why most people could never pull it off.
It bothers me that people are not learning anything about PvP except how to plug in skills they saw in observer mode and telling their NPC's what to do. It dumbs down HA.
C-SPACE.... C-SPACE.... "I Will Avenge You"... C-SPACE...
now that right there is really learning something about pvp, you are really breaking it down to the games mechanics and getting a wonderful understanding!!! HAHA
Djinn Effer
09-11-2006, 00:29
Looks kinda like someone just got owned. >.>
Kinda like that one EP member. What was his name? Looks Like Own? Smells Like Own? You Got Owned? *shrug* Good luck with that IWAY story.
NPCs should not play a major part in Player vs. Player combat, regardless of how many new players it might help. You simply should not be able to enter PvP with more NPCs in your party than real people. 1-2 NPCs, sure, why not, but 1 real person and 5 NPCs is a goddamn joke.
There needs to be a line where between helping new PvPers and turning PvP into NPC battles.
I REALLY hope Gaile or someone from Anet reads and actually understands this. Too bad that probably won't happen
Its funny how people are defending now what they have been watching die for at least a year.
I question if it's dying or simply people looking back and remembering how it once was a little too fondly.
Why is it that every person who supposedly thinks they know about HA mentions IWAY. You apparently didn't do much HA until IWAY first came out, then left HA to do GvG or PvE afterwards and rarely looked to see what the HA metagame was. Your ignorance about HA is showing.
Oh, you did know that in it's later incarnations IWAY did require coordination and strategy to run successfully as it changed from the 6 warrior varient to the 3-4 warrior version after being heavily modded multiple times.
It bothers me that people are not learning anything about PvP except how to plug in skills they saw in observer mode and telling their NPC's what to do. It dumbs down HA.
dual smite, vimway, rspike, vimway/iway hybrid, Sb/RI spike, Ob spike(earth ele's using obisdian flame), minion factory, blood spike,...do i have to continue the list of popular builds that did not require vent or any more coordination on vent then "1-2-3 spike!!"
dual smite, vimway, rspike, vimway/iway hybrid, Sb/RI spike, Ob spike(earth ele's using obisdian flame), minion factory, blood spike,...do i have to continue the list of popular builds that did not require vent or any more coordination on vent then "1-2-3 spike!!"
It's 3, 2, 1 spike - Will you please take your degenerative arguing elsewhere (since HA is garbage to you anyways)? Some people actually care about HA and do not wish for threads like this to be closed.
Phoenixtech
09-11-2006, 04:26
A poll like this, based in a forum not populated by many real HA players (as if there are any left) tells Gaile that the "majority" supports it, where the majority is PvE'rs. I really hope they don't take these polls into consideration in deciding whether to keep heroes or not. Sumxone is actually right. You'd need to put the poll where the real PvPers will see it as well.
Yeah, that basically sums it up in the simpliest way.
I couldn't agree more, it's like the poll on 6-man HA.
There used to be a hard max on 4 henchmen per team in the old 8v8, meaning you had to have at least half the players to be human. (Not talking about disconnects to get more) If Anet wants heroes to stay in HA, let there be a hard cap in PvP at least, of half human teams.
Personally, I don't mind beating a 1 person team a couple of times, but 1 out of 4 teams is a 1 person team. There is no real satisfaction in destroying Zhed for the 10,000th time in a row, when all you want, is to bash in the head of a real monk, who can kite etc. When you finally do see his body sprawled on the floor, it is sooo much better than seeing another Zhed on the floor.
Domina Spellbinder
09-11-2006, 12:20
There used to be a hard max on 4 henchmen per team in the old 8v8, meaning you had to have at least half the players to be human. (Not talking about disconnects to get more) If Anet wants heroes to stay in HA, let there be a hard cap in PvP at least, of half human teams.
Personally, I don't mind beating a 1 person team a couple of times, but 1 out of 4 teams is a 1 person team. There is no real satisfaction in destroying Zhed for the 10,000th time in a row, when all you want, is to bash in the head of a real monk, who can kite etc. When you finally do see his body sprawled on the floor, it is sooo much better than seeing another Zhed on the floor.
Or that off-chance for Healing Sig-Frenzy ;)
If Anet wish more ppl to play in HA...they have to make it appeal to the masses.
That is what they have done with the inclusion of heroes.
If Anet want Guildwars to continue to be repsected in the gaming community/reviews for its competitive and functional PvP content...they will have to remove them.
The compromise of allowing a "couple" of heroes in for beginners would in the short term fulfill one condition...but try to sell GW4 (or any of the current versions) on the back of its "superb PVP gameplay"..when the player base no longer take it seriously enough to compete in.
Will Koss get a gold cape?...and his name on the Championship pedastle?
On HA with AI-
I think that having two per team now that team limits are six (see other threads for arguments to take it back to eight). Teams should be able to form just fine and this keeps the real player minimum of four that was in place when HA was 8v8. I don't think you can eliminate AI since AI is needed to scab a team that has anyone that drops.
On the poll-
I don't understand why people have to flame a poll. If you don't like it, skip the thread. Its not constructive to the discussion to just lambast the poll. People arguing the scientific merits of the poll should realize this is the internet and no scientific merits exist.
Besides, polls taken by true polling companies would track demographics of the polling group to analyze correlations such as do the PvE people prefer AI vs the PvP people. Or do people who play more hours in a week prefer AI vs otherwise.
At any rate, this is a forum and is a place where we can all freely discuss the topic. I've seen a few threads on these subjects get ripped apart by people who just want to grief and its tiring as well as counterproductive. (gotta love the internet and its supposed anonymity.)
On HA in general-
After Nightfall came out, I have only HA'd a few times and then reverted to PvE as I feel I can unlock skills faster in PvE (non-elites) and use my Balth faction to unlock the runes, upgrades, and elites. I also like to use a few of my PvE chars in PvP so I'll cap with them. All of this means that it makes it easier to not HA while the Hero fad is still ongoing. I'm curious if people think heros may get out of HA on their own.
Lord Natural
09-11-2006, 19:37
Let's be honest, the main reason most people play HA is to earn fame and rank. If it's straight-up pvp you're after, GvG has always been the highest competitive level. So with that being said, if you're still forming real teams in HA, chances are if your team is competent at all, they will make short work of hero teams and thus make your quest for fame even easier. On the other end, if you can't get a decent team because you have no rank, or choose not to pug for whatever reason, hero teams give you the option of riding solo and picking up a little bit of fame in doing so. To me it seems win-win. However, I'm sure there are people who play HA just for fun and who don't necessarily care about rank. I can see how those people might get frustrated fighting bots all the way up to courtyard.
Honestly, I think HA has been a crapshoot for a while now (even moreso since 6v6 was implimented), so I'd just as soon see the heros stay. HA was struggling due to lack of active teams and given the elimination of Burial Mounds and the increased difficulty in taking Broken Tower, it would be very difficult for inexperienced teams to get any fame at all, were it not for heros increasing the amount of active teams.
- If you're a low ranked player who couldn't find a team normally, it's a positive change.
- If you play with a guild (or friends) and are primarily after fame and rank, it's a positive change.
- If you fall into the above catagories, but do not play in HA solely for the purpose of fame, then it's a negative change. But for these folks, they have GvG to fall back on.
On HA with AI-
I don't understand why people have to flame a poll. If you don't like it, skip the thread. Its not constructive to the discussion to just lambast the poll. People arguing the scientific merits of the poll should realize this is the internet and no scientific merits exist.
Besides, polls taken by true polling companies would track demographics of the polling group to analyze correlations such as do the PvE people prefer AI vs the PvP people. Or do people who play more hours in a week prefer AI vs otherwise.
At any rate, this is a forum and is a place where we can all freely discuss the topic. I've seen a few threads on these subjects get ripped apart by people who just want to grief and its tiring as well as counterproductive. (gotta love the internet and its supposed anonymity.)
You don't understand why people flame polls? There's a rather simple explanation. Anet gets most (if not all) of their ideas from fan sites, and listens to peoples complaints from fan sites. If the people who are pissed off about the 6v6 and Heroes in HA just skipped these polls and didn't voice what they think, Anet will believe its perfect, everyone loves it, and there's no changes needed.
But as much sense as that makes, I don't think it applies here, since they won't consider changing it back.
You don't understand why people flame polls?
I was speaking of the people who have been flaming the poll for existing. I've read quite a few people stating that this poll is irrelevent or unneccessary. I think that they are entitled to that opinion, but I also think that it is a topic of another thread that could be called "Are polls dumb." They could even put a poll on the topic :)
All kidding aside, my main point on the topic of polls was that I think they are a good idea particularly in the HA subforum where people who are serious about PvP will go. (Some seem to think that GvG is the answer but not everyone likes the GvG format and again that's why this is in the HA forum).
I also like how we can discuss why we vote the way we do and see other peoples ideas of why there should be 0, 2, 4, or more AI characters on a team. I don't think we should start stating that polls are stupid on the thread as it doesn't do anything constructive for the discussion. So, now here I am being non-constructive. I apologize and won't say more on the matter of polling on this thread.
See you guys in HA!
I just read got NeverWinter Nights 2 and read about the ability to control you henchmen etc. Sounds familiar?
Stephanus Aurelius
10-11-2006, 08:39
I was speaking of the people who have been flaming the poll for existing. I've read quite a few people stating that this poll is irrelevent or unneccessary. I think that they are entitled to that opinion, but I also think that it is a topic of another thread that could be called "Are polls dumb." They could even put a poll on the topic :)
All kidding aside, my main point on the topic of polls was that I think they are a good idea particularly in the HA subforum where people who are serious about PvP will go. (Some seem to think that GvG is the answer but not everyone likes the GvG format and again that's why this is in the HA forum).
I also like how we can discuss why we vote the way we do and see other peoples ideas of why there should be 0, 2, 4, or more AI characters on a team. I don't think we should start stating that polls are stupid on the thread as it doesn't do anything constructive for the discussion. So, now here I am being non-constructive. I apologize and won't say more on the matter of polling on this thread.
See you guys in HA!
I need to say also that most, and I'd like to reiterate most players that are primarily into PvE are not going to read this thread anyway. Those that do should vote for No Opinion as I did, I'm probably one of the few that did read this thread. I try to keep up what going on in these areas, because I eventually will make it to these arenas, and when I do I'll abide by whatever rules A-net sets up. In my opinion, it's their game they're just allowing me and my buddies to play it..."Don't hate the game, hate the players." Flame on Baby, flame on:cool: .
thedrjay
10-11-2006, 17:18
???
Who cares???
Pretty much.... :-/
I dont care what version of IWAY you ran... or if you "only did it for the last 1000 fame of your rank XX"... 99% of the people who regularly played that garbage have about as much guild wars skill as a 3 toed sloth trying to play atari... just doesnt work out so well... Vimway took a lot of skill too... PLX... Out of all the lame gimic builds EoE bomb took by far the most skill which is prolly why most people could never pull it off.
Of course you failed to grasp the concept of what I was talking about at all.
C-SPACE.... C-SPACE.... "I Will Avenge You"... C-SPACE...
now that right there is really learning something about pvp, you are really breaking it down to the games mechanics and getting a wonderful understanding!!! HAHA
And you again show your ignorance about anything related to HA whatsoever.
Don’t see the problem myself. If all Hero teams are ‘noob’ teams then it should make it easier for you serious HA teams to progress through.
I gained Rank 3 with my monk but now go Hero with a friend. 10 seconds after entering we are in and not waiting for a group for ages.
Sure, we are only faction farm the first 2/3 maps, we don’t expect to get any further.
We still think hard about builds and constantly change them to improve. We even beat a mid 300’s guild the other week, (boy were they peeved).
We are enjoying ourselves, we paid our money the same as everyone else and have the right to play the game, within the rules, as we deem fit!
So, please, stop throwing your toys out the pram and just play the game :rolleyes:
Psychotic
12-11-2006, 20:44
Just to see how bad it is, I ran a heroway earlier this weekend, and was rather sad to see how easy it was to win the first 2-3 arenas... granted, getting past relic running would be extremely difficult. Heroway doesn't completely ruin HA, but it does take quite a bit of the fun out of it.
AI has no place in PVP arenas, because it contradicts Player vs Player. In fact, its the opposite of it. HEROES OUT OF HA.
Thats just says everything....
Limit it to one Hero a party for THOSE below rank3 2 heros... and thats IT.
Don’t see the problem myself. If all Hero teams are ‘noob’ teams then it should make it easier for you serious HA teams to progress through.
if you read any of the threads on this issue on any of the GW forums, you'll realise that the issue isn't inability in beating heroway, at all.
ps. rank ~300 guilds aren't considered good
I don't see what is wrong with heroes... it's free fame for most people. The only people that vote against it are the people who get the floor wiped with them by heroes.
thedrjay
14-11-2006, 17:46
The only people that vote against it are the people who get the floor wiped with them by heroes.
More like the people who are sick and tired of facing the same stupid SF teams that provide no real challenge that you have to mindlessly get past before actually competing against a real team.
More like the people who are sick and tired of facing the same stupid SF teams that provide no real challenge that you have to mindlessly get past before actually competing against a real team.
sooo, the problem seems to SF, not the heroes. heroway is easy because of SF, other builds are *much* harder to do with henchies and heroes.
i say: balance SF, and heroway won't be such an issue any more, it will still be there, but not as annoying.
thedrjay
14-11-2006, 18:49
No, most teams that are run using heroes are much the same as a SF team, so changing SF would do little to alleviate the problem.
What happens is that the first 3 matches up through Scarred Earth are filled with Heroway teams (regardless of the build. SF was mentioned as it is the most prominent) This means that prior to getting a real challenge you have to slog through those teams, which usually cannot get past the 1st relic run map.
It would be similar to having to kill 5 groups of elementals prior to doing a quest. You have to slog through mindlessly killing something before getting to the good stuff.
Ju Smurph
15-11-2006, 04:09
Don’t see the problem myself. If all Hero teams are ‘noob’ teams then it should make it easier for you serious HA teams to progress through.
I gained Rank 3 with my monk but now go Hero with a friend. 10 seconds after entering we are in and not waiting for a group for ages.
Sure, we are only faction farm the first 2/3 maps, we don’t expect to get any further.
We still think hard about builds and constantly change them to improve. We even beat a mid 300’s guild the other week, (boy were they peeved).
We are enjoying ourselves, we paid our money the same as everyone else and have the right to play the game, within the rules, as we deem fit!
So, please, stop throwing your toys out the pram and just play the game :rolleyes:
I agree :laugh:
I have run with pugs and when you get a bad pug, not a noob pug but a knucklehead that just screams at everybody.... thats no fun. Though i can run with a few friends and a few heroes easily and have a good time.
As for relics i think i have lost one out of five while herowaying with 2 friends.
One thing i love about heroway is how tactics have changed to make for a faster game. Example:
Broken Hill: Normally if there is no holding build, everyone would stand around for the first few minutes and roll dice etc... though have you seen what happens when one of those guys decides to charge another team? Action ensues! We had that the other day, a guy charged us, we fought him off (eliminated him) capped the alter and killed the other team off with 30 seconds to spare... alot more exciting than rolling dice for the first few minutes...
Sure i prefure to run with real people when i can, but they are not always available...
The greatest thing about heroway though:
Is how it pissed off all the grumpy elitist so 'n' sos... Once upon a time Tombs was an esoteric place, no one could get in. Like a private club of sorts, problem was people paid money to get in there the same as the members. Now the gates are open to all those that paid for it and people are pissed that their club is not so exclusive enough.
Ju Smurph
15-11-2006, 05:31
One point the edit want let me make that i thought of in another thread...
"If you don't like <Rank 3's running heroway, let them in your PUG."
ZiegDivine
15-11-2006, 19:17
Is how it pissed off all the grumpy elitist so 'n' sos... Once upon a time Tombs was an esoteric place, no one could get in. Like a private club of sorts, problem was people paid money to get in there the same as the members. Now the gates are open to all those that paid for it and people are pissed that their club is not so exclusive enough.
Shows how much you know about HA and how much you really tried to get in. I made my HA flist in under 2 months ... you know how? I tried. that's it. All you lazy ***** can now farm your bambi and think you're great at pvp. That's why the HA community (not you) is pissed off. HA is a mindless place now where a wammo with mending can win halls and think he's great at it, when in reality everybody decent left and so now there is no competition. It seems like the "pro-heroway" side doesn't get it ... playing against bots is like PvE. It's not that I get wiped by them (honestly I think I've lost to heroway once), it's boring. That's why I stopped HAing. That's why others have stopped HAing. HA was never a "private club for members," it was a "private club for those that tried." Take the skill out of HA and what do you have? A broken arena.
"If you don't like <Rank 3's running heroway, let them in your PUG."
PuGs suck. That's the truth. People that win halls don't pug, it's been said over and over again. Example: I'm r5 atm, I monked for our guild group just when NF came out, we beat a r10 (or r11) pug that had leelof (r13) in it. PuGs quite simply suck. They don't play together, they have no synergy, they don't communicate, and don't know each other as well as flist or guild groups. It's been said over and over again, HA is a social network, where friends and guildies get first choice, and puggers get last.
Ju Smurph
15-11-2006, 23:04
Everything i say is a generalisation at the larger HA 'Community'
PuGs suck. That's the truth. People that win halls don't pug, it's been said over and over again.
Yes they do, so how is a <Rank 3 ever going to get there if he is surrounded by morons... the company of morons does not teach you anything.
It's been said over and over again, HA is a social network, where friends and guildies get first choice, and puggers get last.
Certainly is... an inbreed, esoteric social club that is not looking to mentor fresh talent. So if you don't want to group with him... what other option does that leave him. So he runs heroway... surely you top guilds can't be scarred of that... or maybe you should because i have seen plenty of rank 10 plus groups go down to heroway...
thedrjay
15-11-2006, 23:13
Ju,
Your gross generalizations of the HA community provide plenty of reasons why most unranked players rarely get into high ranked groups.
Wanting to get into high ranked groups is like wanting to join EW and be in the GvG matches, in my opinion. It just can't happen without the candidate putting in a significant amount of work to get recognised to as a good player.
Ju Smurph
16-11-2006, 02:11
Ju,
Your gross generalizations of the HA community provide plenty of reasons why most unranked players rarely get into high ranked groups.
Buy a second account... And get a group without mentioning your other accounts credentials. Masquerade as a noob willing to try... see how long it takes and how far it takes you.
For over a year people have been complaining about the inability to get into HA. Now they can get in so now there happy... now the people holding them down so long are not happy.
Generalisations are a necessary evil when looking at social interactions of the masses. Individuals do not fit in but as a collective whole they grow better. So please forgive me.
People bought a game to play, not too prove themselves worthy to someone on the otherside of the world.
All i want is a realistic chance for everybody... They paid as much money as you did to play HA. Heroes have finally after 18 months given a chance for people to get a go.
ZiegDivine
16-11-2006, 22:45
Yes they do, so how is a <Rank 3 ever going to get there if he is surrounded by morons... the company of morons does not teach you anything.
Rank grind. you win on the first couple of maps, you lose, you go in again. That's how I got my rank 2, ****ty iway pugs.
Certainly is... an inbreed, esoteric social club that is not looking to mentor fresh talent. So if you don't want to group with him... what other option does that leave him. So he runs heroway... surely you top guilds can't be scarred of that... or maybe you should because i have seen plenty of rank 10 plus groups go down to heroway...
Wow, you really haven't been paying attention to what I have been saying, have you? I GOT MY HA FLIST IN UNDER 2 MONTHS. I STARTED OUT RANK 2 AT THE BEGINNING OF THOSE 2 MONTHS. Please read that over and over and over again, until you figure out that the only HA players who don't rank up are the ones that can't get off their lazy *****.
People bought a game to play, not too prove themselves worthy to someone on the otherside of the world.
All i want is a realistic chance for everybody... They paid as much money as you did to play HA. Heroes have finally after 18 months given a chance for people to get a go.
This is where I found out you were (and please, don't take this wrong) a retard when it comes to PvP. I payed as much money as WM and EvIL, why can't I have a golden cape? Why can't I have that? Hmm? I really really really really really really really want it. You say I have to be good? BUT I ****ING WANT IT!!!! WHAT THE ****?!!! I PAYED AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY DID!!!!
to quote my good friend nurse:
gb2pve
Stephanus Aurelius
17-11-2006, 08:18
This is where I found out you were (and please, don't take this wrong) a retard when it comes to PvP. I payed as much money as WM and EvIL, why can't I have a golden cape? Why can't I have that? Hmm? I really really really really really really really want it. You say I have to be good? BUT I ****ING WANT IT!!!! WHAT THE ****?!!! I PAYED AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY DID!!!!
:laughing: TOOO FUUUNNY!!!! (was that in bad taste? but it was) :laughing: !!!! Given I do primarily PvE at the moment I find this reasoning hilarious and well put, given this response (from ZiegDivine) was aimed at someone whining about wanting an equal opportunity. Yes, they bought the game I believe they now have their opportunity...now get on with it and quit whining...LOL!!!
Ju Smurph
17-11-2006, 08:36
Zeig... sorry but you are mistaken.
I will speak for myself here. I don't play HA for a few reasons: my friends are no good at pvp (i ran with them last night and they are worst than AI for bunching up and getting rolled by a searingway team) and to group with people are good they generally know it and act like it.
So i stay away. Now i can get into HA (Actually access it) by being an unsociable bastard and going by myself and heroes.
I'm saying people paid to play HA, not to get rank. I 100% agree people need to earn rank. Like they need to earn gold capes. However i don't see anyone complaining about heroway in GVG...
Read what i write ok?
Is it too hard for you to understand i just want to play? Heroway is about playing not fame, take a freaking long time to get anywhere when i'm on with heroway. Thats all i want. You can keep your rank... Hell the few fame i get i would give to you if i could just to prove a point. Do you not get that or do you need to point out just how obnoxious and ignorant HA Elitist are?
I go all day working, i just want to come home and play as dumb and as undemanding as i want. Now i have never complained prior to the heroway i just went about my business elsewhere, RA, TA, GvG etc. Now that i have a taste i don't want it stripped away from me because someone else does not want to share. Nor do i want to spend my limited time standing around waiting for that one nice person happy enough to offer a 'noob' some help.
Who are you to tell me how i play? I play with the resources provided to me.
Why do you feel you need to tell me how to play? Does it somehow undermine all the hard work you put in? I don't know but its a freaking game? There is nothing of real world significance to come from HA... I don't really care about it that much, its just when people move through selfishness to stomp on others play expirence i get a little pissed off.
To quote my favourite elitist bunch of crap
"gg"
Thank you for your time.
I complealty agree with Ju..
Its about the easyness access to actually just get in and PLAY..
I, as well as a few thousand other players out there, just want to load and go, i dont have hours to sit and LFG weather unranked or ranked.
Few of the AI haters fail to understand that simpyl enjoying the play, weather the outcome is win or loose is more important to some people.
Before Hero's and 6v6 HA however good a player myself or other are remained a tightly shut door but to a few.
Now i think.. If i had an hour i could go try HA and be able to enjoy it.
There wasnt the uproar with henchies, because they were uncontrolleable and dumb - however skilled the player was the henchies could let them down.
but NOW, right NOW skilled players or good thinking players with 0 rank can take heros, and micro manage them as if they were playing all 2 - 3 characters and possibly win.
And thats whats scarey isnt it? that someone who hasnt spent thousands of hours griding a fame farm may actually log in to play and win.
Skill > time spent grinding.
Heros have made a terrifc difference for skill PvE players wanting to enter the Hall of Heros.
And with is they hope to stop the "zomg PvE players SUCK unless they have fame Rank X +"
And simply because a gimmick defence build allowed some grifeing, a lot of PvPs prefer the exclusion zone to be brought back.
Naru
So as long as someone is having fun everything's all right? Even if it completly removes an aspect from the game? Namely non-guild based PvP? Because bots are not people! Of course it is, because it allows playing PvE in a PvP arena and that's all you want.
Well then how about doing it the other way round, allowing PvP players to PvP in a PvE area? As a lvl28 Abysal in the FoW waiting for a group of PvE players. It'd still be PvE, because only one of 1000 monsters is player controlled, right? Ok, so you'd be pissed if he manages to wipe your party (or sneaks around and kills Rastigan) but it'd still be ok, because someone was having fun, right?
So please, if you're argueing that something is a good thing because you are having fun, think for a second if it'd still be a good thing if it's the other way round, other people having fun by bringing their play style into your area.
well that would change the argument wouldnt it?
IN PvE i expect to fight monsters AI.
Heros in PvP are AI Controlled by a Player.
There is a slight difference.. It still requires skill to mico controle the heros.
So Next?
Naru
thedrjay
17-11-2006, 16:39
In PvE expect to fight computer AI
In PvP expect to fight other people.
What's so hard about that.
eliminate heroes completely, so people can fight people as was originally intended in PvP combat.
Keep the heros, if anything get rid of the henchies.
I know people dont like the one man teams of heroway(which getting rid of the henchies would eliminate)
but if i have a group of 3 friends who are board its nice to trhow an ha build together with heros and test how it will work, and it takes alot less time than picking up 3 people.
and there is nothing more satisfying than playing as heroway and rolling some pugs
thedrjay
17-11-2006, 18:09
No, due to the fact that henchies are available in all 3 campaigns and Heroes only in 1, it would be much easier from a programming standpoint to eliminate the heroes.
Why people like to henchway HA is because of rank and emote, look at proper 1vs1 hero arena, why so few people there?
Ju Smurph
18-11-2006, 12:49
In PvE expect to fight computer AI
In PvP expect to fight other people.
What's so hard about that.
eliminate heroes completely, so people can fight people as was originally intended in PvP combat.
Originally intended?
What about henchies... they are in the truest essence AI and how long they been around?
Now heroes? When i have run heroway... my mate manages BOTH monks... i command the fighters...
I'm playing, me, as a human playing multiple avatars as apposed to a human playing a sole avatar. Its still PvP under that definition.
As for original intentions... its an online game, by its very nature it changes. :wave:
Stephanus Aurelius
19-11-2006, 04:59
Originally intended?
What about henchies... they are in the truest essence AI and how long they been around?
Now heroes? When i have run heroway... my mate manages BOTH monks... i command the fighters...
I'm playing, me, as a human playing multiple avatars as apposed to a human playing a sole avatar. Its still PvP under that definition.
As for original intentions... its an online game, by its very nature it changes. :wave:
This is what I said earlier in this thread, but no one except for you agreed with me so I said nothing else :sealed: ...LOL!!!
if you have no qualms considering heroes as 'PvP', why don't you play in the Hero vs Hero arena?
Ju Smurph
19-11-2006, 12:26
because Hero arena and Heros Ascent are very different game play... :shocked: go figure...
considering that Hero vs Hero arenas, like the Hall of Heroes, revolve around altar maps, perhaps you should be petitioning to ANet to change it to 6v6 and you can play out your ideal RTS type PvP there!
nightrunner
19-11-2006, 19:10
What about henchies... they are in the truest essence AI and how long they been around?
Henchway has been around in HA for a while. However, since the AI was pretty bad and a lot of their skillbars were lousy, Henchway was unpopular enough that it had virtually no presence in HA and nobody complained about it. Heroway, on the other hand, has Heroes whose bars can be changed, and they're good enough to beat a bad PUG. So now every other team you play is Heroway, which is why people are complaining.
Now heroes? When i have run heroway... my mate manages BOTH monks... i command the fighters...
Good for you. Now tell me how many Heroway groups out there are micromanaging every move, and how many you think are simply giving their Heroes skills and letting them play.
Henchway has been around in HA for a while. However, since the AI was pretty bad and a lot of their skillbars were lousy, Henchway was unpopular enough that it had virtually no presence in HA and nobody complained about it. Heroway, on the other hand, has Heroes whose bars can be changed, and they're good enough to beat a bad PUG. So now every other team you play is Heroway, which is why people are complaining.
Good for you. Now tell me how many Heroway groups out there are micromanaging every move, and how many you think are simply giving their Heroes skills and letting them play.
Good for you for pointing that out. Now who cares?
Good for you. Now tell me how many Heroway groups out there are micromanaging every move, and how many you think are simply giving their Heroes skills and letting them play.
are you basing your point on the asumption, that some players don't controll their heroes?
that's pretty far fetched, as you do not have any prove for this claim.
Destrius
20-11-2006, 01:46
I believe heroway is a good way for people to get experience in HA because alot of people just aren't very good at HA and you need to get used to it before you find a guild you can do it with. I think a bigger problem is the lack of creativity. I'd like to see some new builds out there. I tried to make one today but found assassins cant join groups HA and there weren't any there...
The old henchways were 4 henchs + 4 humans. With the cap to 6vs6 and the Heros u now just run full team with bots. It does not teach anything to a player. One of my friends got his rank 4 with em and he still does not know what teamplay is. Oh i forgot he learned how to manage his heros. :D
B Ephekt
22-11-2006, 19:00
Yes they do, so how is a <Rank 3 ever going to get there if he is surrounded by morons... the company of morons does not teach you anything.I don't know, maybe he could start his own groups and put good players on his friends list for later? Nah, that takes too much effort.
Certainly is... an inbreed, esoteric social club that is not looking to mentor fresh talent.When I sign on I want to play - and win - not spend my playing time teaching someone to pvp.
People bought a game to play, not too prove themselves worthy to someone on the otherside of the world.
All i want is a realistic chance for everybody... They paid as much money as you did to play HA.
...
I'm saying people paid to play HA, not to get rank.
This argument is horribly flawed, and just doesn't hold any weight. Just like those who argue that they "paid for access to Fow and UW," you're wrong. Guild Wars players paid for a license to access the game content, nothing more. There is nothing preventing you from loading up HA and finding or forming a group - nothing. If you can't be bothered to do this it's really nobody's fault but your own.
I go all day working, i just want to come home and play as dumb and as undemanding as i want. Now i have never complained prior to the heroway i just went about my business elsewhere, RA, TA, GvG etc. Now that i have a taste i don't want it stripped away from me because someone else does not want to share. Nor do i want to spend my limited time standing around waiting for that one nice person happy enough to offer a 'noob' some help.How is it that wanting so sign on and play seems completely logical to you, in regards to not wanting to be bothered finding a group. Yet, when ranked players want to do the same, without being bothered to take inexperienced players, it's elitism?
As for heroes, there is simply no place for them in a competitive pvp environment. HA and GvG are both high level competitive venues; there should, by the very nature of the environments, be some sort of exclusion for new players. However, this is not a bad thing as it encourages competitive play and allows for goals to be set and milestones to be achieved, which is what fuels the sucess of pvp.
The problem is that some players don't wish to put for an effort to break into this competitive environment, and in turn feel that they're being excluded. This is simply an unfortunate side effect of competitive play; however, it is not a flaw. To address these conceived issues is to degrade the competitive nature of the arena.
Heroes do give casual players a chance to get in there and play, but they also greatly degrade and devalue the experience for everyone else. This is why heros are a serious threat to HA. When the utter lack of competition in HA is largely due to the fact that a good 75-80% of the teams only contain 1-2 human players, heroes simply have to go if HA is to remain a truly competitive arena. This begs the question of where to draw the line between streamlining the newcomer's experience, and maintaing an arena that will encourage competative play. The evidence that heroes are degrading the competition and playerbase in HA is quite resounding; what follows is the fact that something must be done to resolve this.
I'm sorry but I just don't see how HA can remain a competitive environment if teams are allowed to contain more NPCs than real players. I think a 2 NPC (hero or henchman) limit would be quite fair to players on either side.
are you basing your point on the asumption, that some players don't controll their heroes?
that's pretty far fetched, as you do not have any prove for this claim.
First, a disclaimer: I am 100% against heroway and I want it out of tombs, but IMO skill balance (Avatar of Grenth, some paragon stuff) and 6v6 are far bigger problems. The only reason I ran heroway was to get my last 100 fame for r10 and get the hell out of tombs until anet gets their s*** together. You won't see me with heroes, or in tombs at all, after today.
I hardly control my heroes... sometimes I use the flags to get them away from a choke point or to run in a different direction than I do (most often on a relic run). I have one skill on manual on my monk (seed) and one on my paragon (song of conc).
I farmed about 80 fame in slightly less than 4 hours yesterday. Part of it was with a friend, part alone. Yes, it's not the greatest record and you can get far more with a holding build, but it's pretty damn good for heroway. Straight fight vs SF lasts about 1 minute when using henches and 1.5 minutes when using 2 people (because the build becomes more defensive). Your typical wannabe paragonholdway crumbles in 1-3 minutes, depending on how bad they are. Good ones actually manage to hold out the entire four minutes, which was really frustrating on courtyard because we always ended up facing 2 paragon builds :/
Here's a screenshot of what I did to a full (6-man) SF team. (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/Zerg0nator2/gw281.jpg) You only need to look at the morale chart, really.
So, what was my point again? Ah, yes. I'm not microing my heroes. I'm just running a broken build against stupid players. Feel free to copy it and farm some fame. It's a lot better than SF. Here are the approximate win percentages per map after playing the build for over 5 hours:
Underworld: 100% <-- no, 100% is not an exaggeration. Same for dark chambers.
Broken Tower: ~70%
Scarred Earth: ~85%
Unholy Temples: ~70% <-- can't really outrun a good paragon build with ward foes and can't kill them fast enough either
Dark Chambers: 100% <-- The sample size (# of games played) is less than underworld, of course, but this still should say something.
Courtyard: ~30% <-- facing 2x paragonway = fun
Sacred Temples: 1/2
Hall of Heroes: 0/3 <-- see courtyard, except one of them starts with the altar
Mathius Clarkus
25-11-2006, 18:03
crikey! what skill builds were you and your heroes using?!
It is too late to save HA anyway.. :/
God Apprentice
27-11-2006, 16:20
Zeig... sorry but you are mistaken.
I will speak for myself here. I don't play HA for a few reasons: my friends are no good at pvp (i ran with them last night and they are worst than AI for bunching up and getting rolled by a searingway team) and to group with people are good they generally know it and act like it.
So i stay away. Now i can get into HA (Actually access it) by being an unsociable bastard and going by myself and heroes.
I'm saying people paid to play HA, not to get rank. I 100% agree people need to earn rank. Like they need to earn gold capes. However i don't see anyone complaining about heroway in GVG...
Read what i write ok?
Is it too hard for you to understand i just want to play? Heroway is about playing not fame, take a freaking long time to get anywhere when i'm on with heroway. Thats all i want. You can keep your rank... Hell the few fame i get i would give to you if i could just to prove a point. Do you not get that or do you need to point out just how obnoxious and ignorant HA Elitist are?
I go all day working, i just want to come home and play as dumb and as undemanding as i want. Now i have never complained prior to the heroway i just went about my business elsewhere, RA, TA, GvG etc. Now that i have a taste i don't want it stripped away from me because someone else does not want to share. Nor do i want to spend my limited time standing around waiting for that one nice person happy enough to offer a 'noob' some help.
Who are you to tell me how i play? I play with the resources provided to me.
Why do you feel you need to tell me how to play? Does it somehow undermine all the hard work you put in? I don't know but its a freaking game? There is nothing of real world significance to come from HA... I don't really care about it that much, its just when people move through selfishness to stomp on others play expirence i get a little pissed off.
To quote my favourite elitist bunch of crap
"gg"
Thank you for your time.
In HA you should be social, TEAMWORK AND COMMUNICATION is key.
You want to play as "dumb and undemanding as possible"? Do not play HA. Go back to playing a touch ranger in RA.
The resources provided to you prove inherent laziness in the current batch of HA players.
Yes it does undermine what we have all done. I got my r3 before Factions, and it took a bit of time to earn it. I even got myself a Halls win against real people, having to concentrate and watch shifts in battle. Whereas you lazily farm faction on the first few maps with your bots. But you know what? You have it made at the moment. All of the great HAers are gone, some of us on the bottom tier still exist, but the true greats are gone. Granted if they all came back tommorow, you would have a harder time playing with your bots. The greats need to come back and show you how great HA was, before they added noob bots.
God Apprentice
27-11-2006, 16:21
if you have no qualms considering heroes as 'PvP', why don't you play in the Hero vs Hero arena?
because Hero arena and Heros Ascent are very different game play... :shocked: go figure...
Because this lazy person wants to fame farm, and doesn't want to do what we all did, forming pugs, making friends, until we gain better knowledge of the game and we learn to work better as a team, thus gaining more wins, and eventually being able to work together so good you win halls. That's why.
well that would change the argument wouldnt it?
IN PvE i expect to fight monsters AI.
Heros in PvP are AI Controlled by a Player.
There is a slight difference.. It still requires skill to mico controle the heros.
So Next?
Naru
Sorry.....we call that REAL TIME STRATEGY
Next.
Forbiddian
28-11-2006, 00:49
I have another reasonable suggestion: Make a 1v1 map that is for henchway teams only.
The main problem with Henchway is that it's 100x more effective at farming fame than finding a team (at least a r0-r2 team, which has little chance to hold HoH). You just rage-quit every unwinnable matchup and restart. There's no waiting for people to join, waiting for people to go to the bathroom, waiting for people to load up the right build. It's the perfect fame-farming tool.
Here's the solution: If your team has less than 3 players, then before you are even allowed to enter Heroes' Ascent you have to beat another henchway team 1v1. You don't get fame for this victory.
This reduces or removes the incentive to use Henchway as a solo, brute force farming strat, since it adds an extra few minutes to any farming attempt.
This also thins out the henchway, and ensures a basic level of skill from the Henchway player. Admittedly, some Henchway can give even decent teams some trouble. The problem is the ragequitters trying to speed up their farming runs by skipping difficult rounds.
This doesn't stop people from playing Henchway if they want to.
I like this suggestion more than banning Heroway completely. Honestly some nights when other people aren't on or I'm just bored, it's pretty fun to play henchway. I guess I could take it to Hero Battles, but honestly, Hero Battles sucks. There are only three builds: Ritualist Camper (Ritualist, Monk x2, Ranger with Ritualist skills), 3x Monk Camper (usually with a Ranger with Ritualist skills), and ragequitter (any other build; basically has zero chance to win, so intelligently chooses to ragequit... this is what I played). It's just a huge campfest.
EDIT: Oh, one more thing: In fairness to the farmers, it's a lot harder to get fame now than it was a year ago, or even six months ago. Rank-Elitism is much stronger now, because the game has been out so long that even the most casual (or most-dedicated to PvE) players have at least r1 or r2. It used to be that in a few days of playing hard, you could get into the more experienced groups (since people only required r1 or r2). Now you need a week or more of grinding to get r3 and finally get your foot in the door, since most groups default to r3 or r4 requirements.
But that might just be because r1 and r2 players just heroway it up. I dunno....
ImSoToast
28-11-2006, 05:12
God Apprentice you might be a little rude or mean but god dang you make a valid point that people always, ALWAYS ignore! Watch and see.
I always thought, and have stated, that part of Ha should be forming a team. Random, pug, guild group, friends team, etc... It doesn't matter/shouldn't matter, but a human team should be required.
Sorry but lots of arguements for heroeways hide behind, "I just want to play Ha," when they really just farming fame for rank. Honestly if you just want to play Ha whats wrong with meeting a bunch of r0's putting them on friends list and making a team, quicker, from that?
God Apprentice
28-11-2006, 10:02
Sorry I don't mean my comments to come off as that. I don't understand why pro Hero people can't make unranked pugs, why they can't learn to play with other unranks, I don't see unranked teams forming anymore, which is sad, because these people prefer to get fame using Heros, and I have run into Hero teams who sole purpose was to grief you for 15+ minutes just so they would get fame, all the while loling and etc (I play monk with pugs and friends). The thing some of these people look at is because they are not ranked (as in can show an emote rank) that they are discriminated against. That's not the case. I mean sure there are some true idiots on here that will look at you if you unranked and be like get out of here scrub, but I can say for myself that as long as you have a basic understanding of what you are doing I would take you r2 or below. For instance we had a guy who was unranked but had all the monk builds, yet no one would give him a chance, my leader let him join our groups and he got his rank because we gave him a chance. The most helpful thing I can tell you people who are unranked is to research. Use Observer mode and see what is being run, try to get any skillbars you see, read up on forums about them and how they are used, go to HA and try to make groups with other unranked people. With time and patience you will become comfortable with running builds and in the meantime build friends who will want you to come play with them.
Stephanus Aurelius
03-12-2006, 03:25
Because this lazy person wants to fame farm, and doesn't want to do what we all did, forming pugs, making friends, until we gain better knowledge of the game and we learn to work better as a team, thus gaining more wins, and eventually being able to work together so good you win halls. That's why.
Sorry.....we call that REAL TIME STRATEGY
Next.
Yeah, I've always kind of thought of it like that as well, in the vain of the Spellborn series only much, much better:grin: .
Quoting someone from The Guild Hall.
Problems:
Minor:
Skill balancing is far too slow, and more skills/classes being added 2x a year relegates old skills to never be buffed.
Reconnects not implemented.
NPCs in PvP. Izzy doesn't like my proposal of replacing archers/guild lord with fireflower boxes that can be captured AB style, but I still think something like that would be much better.
Lack of detailed stats for PvP. RA, TA ladders, GvG stats on how teams do per map, against other teams, etc.
Major:
Cost for new player to purchase the game/UAS, and then additional grind of getting UAX.
No party formation features anywhere, making it very hard for a community to develop. This ties into difficulty in finding a guild, especially now that there is no transition from RA to GvG with HA being completely killed off. I believe a large majority of the GvG players began getting to know each other in Tombs, and that is now gone.
Insufficient rewards. There's a great top reward for 6 teams, but it simply isn't achievable for the vast majority of players. To use Trep's classic language, GW gives rewards (unlocks) to PvPers which are in fact tools.
Poor tournament structure by A.net. Rift realized how to gimmick the ladder last January, yet there has been no changes to the incredibly poor system.
Instances force long setup times. I think this is the problem that is most overlooked, as it is so fundamental to GW, but it really is one of the biggest problems. My MMO background was Shadowbane, and I vastly preferred how it was not instanced. Instancing hurts the GW community significantly. The most apparent way this happens is the 8 man team setup, where a significant part of the time is waiting on exactly 8 people to get ready. If there's more than 8, the extras are literally unable to play and may as well close the client. If less than 8, everyone stands around bored and waits. I'm not going to go into more detail about how instancing kills PvE as well, but I posted a few times on alpha about the necessity for scalable fights, as well as retaining 8man GvG as the flagship form of PvP.
Finally, a lot of the developers appear to not do anything. I'm not sure what their procedures are, but it seems laughable how they are unable and unwilling to respond to concerns, even factoring in the great feedback Izzy gives. What's the justification for the UAX grind? Having 4 guests? We'll never know why the design decisions are made, leading to repetitive arguments that fall on deaf ears. Examine old threads on this and other forums-the same concerns are repeated over and over in cycles, especially in closed forums, where each wave of new testers thinks no one else brought the issues up (I know I fell into this trap).
Furthermore, with the great streaming technology, it doesn't seem to ever be used. Heroes in HA? Takes months to fix, for some reason. I hope the lack of activity on their end is simply fear of overnerfing something, rather than just incompetence.
To sum up:
As people leave the game for whatever reason they need to be replaced. But a new person must a) purchase 3 chapters and unlock what's necessary, b) find a guild with no in game method of doing so, especially with the lack of any transition from RA to GvG, and c) spend more time waiting to PvP then actually doing it due to the fixed party size problem.
Once all those problems are overcome, then skill balancing, reconnects, etc come into play to further agonize the remaining players.
In short, there's too much to fix. The best thing to do at this stage is to launch GW2, completely redesign the game so it has no instancing and an open world at war, and retain GvG as the flagship mode of PvP. As the game stands it will continual to bleed players and new players are slowing to a trickle due to the very high barriers of entry.
Now does anyone else think the bold part is spot on? In fact the entire post damn good.
CassiusDrehyg
04-12-2006, 11:18
Remove any trace of heroes. That way the new players can develop skill by actually grinding fame with other players. Heroes make HA stale. Why can't unranked players actually:
1) Get TS/Vent
2) Make some friends
3) Form a group
Zhed and Dunkoro won't help you become skilled if you're going to spend your time AFK just waiting for them to beat the other team with Searing Flames/Sandstorm/Whatever ele elite you use.
I like heroes. They allow lower ranks to gain fame perhaps faster (if they have any knowlegde of builds) instead of standing in HA for hours spamming:
"Expierienced Dervish with 23 fame LFG (I can solo monk all by myself"
Although, this person might want to go back to RPing for a while.
Also, heroes are free fame for human groups if they're any good
Djinn Effer
06-12-2006, 14:21
Also, heroes are free fame for human groups if they're any good
Thats not always true. I was tombing the other day and our team nearly lost to 1 person that had like 4 or 5 ****ing searing flames ele heros... It was ridiculous, but eh we still won. Though, I think a lot of 'good' teams probably would have lost to that...
But eh, honestly its really easy to get fame facing most hero teams. Last day I tombed I easily got over 100 fame without holding halls. (2 days ago)
Lord Natural
07-12-2006, 03:12
Also, heroes are free fame for human groups if they're any good
If you knew how many times my guild has won hoh over the past month without having more than 3 live players, you'd be very surprised.
I'll agree that most solo hero groups are fodder, but there are a few guilds out there (not just us) who have had a lot of success bringing heros along instead of pick-ups. Anti-social, perhaps, but given the success we've had with heroes, and considering the uncertainty of dealing with players we've never seen before, the new order of preference for us is friends>heroes>pick-ups.
God Apprentice
07-12-2006, 08:16
If you knew how many times my guild has won hoh over the past month without having more than 3 live players, you'd be very surprised.
I'll agree that most solo hero groups are fodder, but there are a few guilds out there (not just us) who have had a lot of success bringing heros along instead of pick-ups. Anti-social, perhaps, but given the success we've had with heroes, and considering the uncertainty of dealing with players we've never seen before, the new order of preference for us is friends>heroes>pick-ups.
Winning halls with Heros shows how sad HA has become, and the lack of competition there as well
Andrea DS
07-12-2006, 17:13
if i want to kill some computer controlled foes, i would go PvE
but... i dare not say removing them completely...1 or 2 ok, but 5? no
Ranger Nietzsche
07-12-2006, 20:58
IF they would go back to 8v8 the hero problem would go away at least to an extent. One person could not go into HA alone w/o bringing 4 henchmen with pretty poor syncronisity with most builds. And even 2 people + 6 heros would EASILY get wasted by 8 real people.
but i dont want to thread-jack.
In 6v6...all i want is to require at least 2 humans. Lets get these soloers some people on their friends lists so they might advance to real pvp
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