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NeferJackal
12-11-2006, 23:19
It seems to me that Incomming may be too good at what it does. In HA i see dozens upon dozens of Incommingons advertising themselves. It has become the new Ritual 'Lord' you cant be without, without feeling you gimp yourself. And outshining most other elites that Paragons have.

I expect that Incomming will get nerfed to encourage more versatility among Paragons. It will probably be returned to it's NPE stats, where it would last about 4 seconds.

JeanDeathwish
12-11-2006, 23:45
Incoming doesnt even last 50% of the time. To use it well you have to predict/see when certain attacks will be coming, not just use it when its ready. I think its well balanced. Then again, I dont play HA.

Now if it can be kept up 100% of the time, that would be godly. :tongue:


EDIT: Incoming now scales to 6 seconds at 14 Command.
EDIT2: 7 seconds...


Is it possible for you to tell me the build they use? I ran an Incoming build on the last 2 missions, with henchies, that worked very well. Just want to see how it compares to the PvP versions.

Synthos dawnbreaker
12-11-2006, 23:45
Did I miss something? i'm pretty sure it still only lasts for 4 seconds

NeferJackal
12-11-2006, 23:50
Incorrect, lasts 7 seconds at 14 command, and rises to 8 at 17 command. I have a command mod shield.

It is very powerful, and teams doesnt want paragons for anything else, save Song of Restoration.

I use: Vicious Attack, Go for the Eyes, Incomming!, Never Surrender, Stand Your ground, Aggressive Refrain, Leader's Comfort and Ressurection Signet.

It is pretty effective.

Patccmoi
13-11-2006, 00:02
Incorrect, lasts 7 seconds at 14 command, and rises to 8 at 17 command. I have a command mod shield.

It is very powerful, and teams doesnt want paragons for anything else, save Song of Restoration.

I use: Vicious Attack, Go for the Eyes, Incomming!, Never Surrender, Stand Your ground, Aggressive Refrain, Leader's Comfort and Ressurection Signet.

It is pretty effective.

In GvG teams want Paragons for Energizing Finale, which is incredibly broken and give monks infinite energy. Watch Yourself! is quite broken too since its Earshot range. Motivation Paragons are like the old Rt Lord build, stalling game forever because it's so freaking hard to kill through them.

Incoming! is also used quite often for its strength against spike teams.

We played a GvG replacing a monk with a Rt/P having 14 Restoration - 12 Command using Vocal was Sogolon + Incoming (9s duration) and it actually worked fine. If you add QZ to that, you can have Incoming going nearly 100% of the time.

I don't think that Incoming is that broken atm but i think the old stats (1..4, 5 at level 14) were fine and buffing them was a mistake.

NeferJackal
13-11-2006, 00:07
There REALLY needs to be an indicator for if someone is affected by a Finale or Refrain! Like with Weaponspells.

JeanDeathwish
13-11-2006, 00:28
We played a GvG replacing a monk with a Rt/P having 14 Restoration - 12 Command using Vocal was Sogolon + Incoming (9s duration) and it actually worked fine. If you add QZ to that, you can have Incoming going nearly 100% of the time.

Almost exactly what we were planning for our GvG build, except its a Paragon with 14 Command and 8 Restoration which will make a 10 second Incoming, perfect when combined with QZ. You must have used the 14 Restoration to add to your healing but in mine, I added points into Motivation for the nice chants.

rentauri
13-11-2006, 03:27
Granted I dont play PvP so I cant tell if it is overpowered there. In PvE however Im really not seeing it being that overpowered, now maybe it is and Im not seeing the before and after numbers to compare, because I find Blazing Finale + Anthem of Flame + Their on Fire (spam any shout) to be as if not more effective, and normally longer lasting to.

If they do nerf it, which if it is effecting PvP as you say it will be, I hope they dont rip it a new one. Its really the only elite in the Command or Leadership line that fit my build.

waywrong
13-11-2006, 03:42
There are ways around Incoming!. I forsee a big return for mesmer/ranger/necro degenning with all the Incoming Paragons running around. Necro lifesteal also works against Incoming!. The new Necro elite Ravenous Gaze seems to counter Paragon damage mitigation. I RA a lot, so Ravenous Gaze works quite a bit, but I'm guessing with the more organized setting of HA, a ravenous gaze necro is probably too risky to run.

That being said, yes, with VwS/QZ/enduring harmony, you can make Incoming last for more than half it's recharge, and that, not the skill itself, makes Incoming! a little too powerful. Especially since they have other things like They're on Fire!, Watch Yourself!, Never Give Up! and Never Surrender! to spam as heals and damage mitigation.

As much as I love the skill, I wouldn't think it's unfair for Anet to knock a second or two off the duration to balance things a little.

gwchi
13-11-2006, 06:25
yea lots of degen hexes and toss in vocal minority somewhere and its makes it a whole lot easier.

waywrong
13-11-2006, 07:48
I wouldn't need any hands to count on my fingers the number of necros I've seen cast Vocal Minority in PvP since the release of Nightfall, or Well of Silence, or Ulcerous Lungs. Same goes for Roaring Winds from Rangers. I guess most necros think it's too situational and don't consider Paragons a big threat yet, their mistake.

Khaunshar
13-11-2006, 16:31
Here we go again....

Its the same as with Ritualists really. The old builds dont work well anymore, and instead of adapting or countering new tactics (as mentioned above through a necro, for instance) a nerf to the new skills is demanded, resulting most likely in the exclusion of the offending skill, or class, from PvP, and reverting it back to the good old core-only play.

NeferJackal
13-11-2006, 16:47
I like Paragons, and i think it should be reduced in power because it does not encourage diversity in Paragon builds. As it is too good. It should be used to catch spikes with, not blanket protection.

Forbiddian
13-11-2006, 17:04
I don't think that Incoming! is exactly overpowered. It's just owning up the CURRENT metagame, to which players haven't even tried to react.

Nightfall has been out only a few weeks. Now it seems like there's nothing but Thumpers and SF spike running around. Players have begged for nerfs to everything... Rampage as One, Starburst, Searing Flames, Incoming! etc.

I understand that players complain and think that it's overpowered because their old tried and true builds got annihilated in two seconds. Personally, I like the versatility. I'm tired of the old Shock Axe dominated metagame, with Warriors forming the core of 90% of builds. With this new metagame, you have teams pushing the offensive edge (HA SF groups now default to four elementalists). You also have teams playing defense, with two Monks and a Paragon forming the support line. You also have combinations of offense and defense in Bunny Thumpers and such.

Also, if you nerf Incoming! because you've seen it for 2 days and you're crying about it... guess what happens to SF? There won't be an easy answer to SF spam. Now two days later, when you get owned by an SF team, you'll cry for a nerf instead of using strategy/tactics. When SF gets nerfed, RaO becomes insanely overpowered. You cry about that instead of changing your builds. Now RaO gets nerfed and you're back to the same exact PvP you had back in core. Maybe there's a Ritualist or two still clinging to life. And a Dervish. Nerf Dervish.


Seriously. Look at the skills. If you can't think of something better, PLAY a Paragon and do research. Do some grunt work instead of screaming for a nerf two days into release. Remember: They buffed Incoming! since NPE, maybe they had a reason to. Instead of crying for a nerf because you lost a couple of HA games, find a way to beat it. There are thousands of skills in Guild Wars.

Shadowleaf
13-11-2006, 17:16
I don't think that Incoming! is exactly overpowered. It's just owning up the CURRENT metagame, to which players haven't even tried to react.

Nightfall has been out only a few weeks. Now it seems like there's nothing but Thumpers and SF spike running around. Players have begged for nerfs to everything... Rampage as One, Starburst, Searing Flames, Incoming! etc.

I understand that players complain and think that it's overpowered because their old tried and true builds got annihilated in two seconds. Personally, I like the versatility. I'm tired of the old Shock Axe dominated metagame, with Warriors forming the core of 90% of builds. With this new metagame, you have teams pushing the offensive edge (HA SF groups now default to four elementalists). You also have teams playing defense, with two Monks and a Paragon forming the support line. You also have combinations of offense and defense in Bunny Thumpers and such.

Also, if you nerf Incoming! because you've seen it for 2 days and you're crying about it... guess what happens to SF? There won't be an easy answer to SF spam. Now two days later, when you get owned by an SF team, you'll cry for a nerf instead of using strategy/tactics. When SF gets nerfed, RaO becomes insanely overpowered. You cry about that instead of changing your builds. Now RaO gets nerfed and you're back to the same exact PvP you had back in core. Maybe there's a Ritualist or two still clinging to life. And a Dervish. Nerf Dervish.


Seriously. Look at the skills. If you can't think of something better, PLAY a Paragon and do research. Do some grunt work instead of screaming for a nerf two days into release. Remember: They buffed Incoming! since NPE, maybe they had a reason to. Instead of crying for a nerf because you lost a couple of HA games, find a way to beat it. There are thousands of skills in Guild Wars.


You're so right... Well, sadly I think ANET has already decided to nerf Searing Flames and RaO. They will not be any less overused for the rest of the season... The metagame does not adapt for the reasons you've mentioned.

Very, very sad.

Well, at least people are starting to use new hex heavy builds to counter Paragons, maybe ANET will leave Paragon intact if this trend continues. :)

Lord Natural
13-11-2006, 17:31
I agree with Forbiddian completely. I'm sure the devs will adjust certain overused skills, like they usually do. But for the moment, there's more variety than there has been in a long time. Yes there are a lot of teams using the Paragon & Dervish, but imo that's a good thing. NF is a new game, let's see the new classes and skills explored.

critical vengeance
13-11-2006, 22:38
Well, at least people are starting to use new hex heavy builds to counter Paragons, maybe ANET will leave Paragon intact if this trend continues. :)




Still though, i mean anet made great counters, ashame enemy necromancers don't seem to use them as much as they could. Well perhaps it's a mixed blessing.

JeanDeathwish
13-11-2006, 22:58
Forbiddian brings up some very good points. The metagame has to adjust and it does so slowly when people begin to realize what is good to counter certain things.

When in an RA run yesterday, I came across few Paragons, but many RM Necros and SF Eles. It is that their skills are quite situational and Paragons shine in organized team play more than random.


I like Paragons, and i think it should be reduced in power because it does not encourage diversity in Paragon builds. As it is too good. It should be used to catch spikes with, not blanket protection.

Its true that it should be used as spike protection and currently may last a bit too much but its not this skill that lessens the diversity in Paragons. They have some very powerful chants that can be abused in organized team play but thats just the problem, they are too situational while skills like Incoming and Song of Restoration are more general, which is why they are used mostly.

theheartofwinter
14-11-2006, 00:10
Wow. Good job. A few days after game release and someone already crying about skills being too overpowered and demanding a nerf. Try to give it a little time and players will soon adjust their builds to counter against it. As pointed out by other posters, this skill can easily countered by other classes. No such skill is too good, its up to the player using the skill, not to mention teamplay coordination and strategy which are more important to win pvp. Perhaps instead of claiming that Paragons lacking build diversity, perhaps other classes need to diversify themselves and reexamine their builds?

Forbiddian
14-11-2006, 02:34
Here is the history of one of the most popular strategy games of all time, "Rock-Paper-Scissors" (sometimes mistaken for an imitator game, "Ro-Sham-Bo"). Up until 1972, most people claimed that Rock was too powerful. And up until 1972, that was mostly true. The top Rock-Paper-Scissors players used Rock over 95% of the time, and experts claimed that tactic was unbeatable. After losing the World Championship title in 1969, Tigran "Winning With Scissors" Petroleum of the USSR remarked that the game should have been called, "Rock-Rock-Rock." Other experts agreed, calling for a "nerf" to the clearly "OPd strat."

However, the World Federation refused to nerf Rock. The spokesperson claimed, "Rock players are some of our most devout fans. Nerfing Rock would only alienate players. If players want to beat Rock, they should try new tactics or strategies." This outraged the Scissors community, and the Scissors community boycotted the game.

Nonetheless, for the next three years, Boris "The Rock" Spazki from the USSR dominated play with his commanding Rock, beating experts around the world with either hand, even playing up to 12 games at the same time against grandmasters. In an interview, Spazki admitted that Rock was overpowered, saying that he "[could] not see any way to beat it, and that nerfing it would be justified."

However, in 1972, a brilliant, but antisocial player from the United States stepped forward to try to claim the title from the Russians. Bobby "The Paper Boy" Fisher in a press conference commented that he had analyzed the metagame and was going to use a strategy to beat the Russian champion. Spazki laughed a the idea, repeatedly calling Fischer a "noob" and adding that he would "pwnxxor j00" and alluded to having sexual intercourse with Fisher's mother. Fisher, for his part, shocked the world by winning the best of 3 match 2-0 by using Paper twice. After the match, a clearly distraught Spazki claimed the tactic had never occurred to him. He returned to the USSR in disgrace.

As of 2006, Paper is still the dominating play style. The only recorded loss of a paper player was to a supercomputer. In the match between Casperof and Shallow Blue (the Rock-Paper-Scissors supercomputer), Shallow Blue used the archaic strategy of Scissors. Casperof ended up losing the match, but attributed his loss to fatigue, "Computers don't get tired... in long matches when it goes to game three, sometimes you just get tired and can't calculate as far as you'd like." He didn't see this loss as foreshadowing the collapse of the Paper strategy, "Paper can't lose... it even beats Rock."

Many players now call for Paper to be nerfed, saying that "teh metagamz is like teh imbalzned u no?" Paper players disagree, saying that Paper is powerful but balanced, and that with proper play, you can beat a Paper player. They cite Casperof's loss to Shallow Blue. Rock players disagree, claiming that they've analyzed all the skills available and can't see a way a human could beat Paper.

Still others claim that buffer skills need to be added to the format. Abilities like Extinguish and Ulcerous Lungs could keep powerful builds in check. Most players agree, however, that no matter how distorted the metagame looks, they won't resort to using "noob hate skills" like Extinguish or Ulcerous Lungs, and that they will continue to petition the World Rock-Paper-Scissors Federation to nerf Paper rather than change their own playstyle.

On the topic of buffer skills, a Paper player remarked, "Extinguish doesn't even make sense in Rock-Paper-Scissors. What would it even do? Extinguish paper? That doesn't make sense!" A Rock player shot back that Paper beating Rock doesn't make sense, either, and that any self-respecting Rock would rip the Paper to shreds. The Paper player rebuked, "Of course it doesn't make sense to you. You play Rock in a Paper metagame. You're retarded!"




Originally I didn't want to include this paragraph and the following material as I deemed it insulting to everyone's intelligence. However, I've decided to include it, based on the intelligence of the community as of late, and the fact that I do want to insult some people's intelligence

The point I'm trying to make is that Guild Wars *is* balanced. It's balanced by the community. If your enemies are using SF, use Extinguish or Heal Party. If your enemies are using Paragon shouts, use Ulcerous Lungs or Vocal Minority. You only need one copy (maybe two) of the skill and the ability to protect them (your opponents will of course try to shut down your Ulcerous Lungs spammer, so you have to use on-the-fly tactics to protect your hate skills from easy counters).

SF would be imbalanced if skills like Heal Party and Extinguish didn't exist. However, Extinguish was put into the game as a buffer skill. If SF concentrations get too high, then players adapt and play Extinguish. When SF concentrations go down and another build starts dominating, players begin playing other skills. Incoming! is a powerful skill, but it's susceptible to hate (most notably, you can simply split vs. Paragons, but you can also *GASP* time your spikes to the 10-15 seconds when Incoming! isn't up... I know a 15 second window is a little bit small for players who routinely time Airspikes down to 1/10th of a second).

If you can't split or can't find room for Extinguish, then your build isn't flexible enough to survive and needs to be changed. Simple. Arguing that your build *should* be able to survive is ludicrous. If it can't, your build isn't good enough. Period. Wait, I meant to add, "lern2play" somewhere in there.

rentauri
14-11-2006, 03:39
That is just great, nice research but didnt the KGB and CIA have a shadow "Rock-Paper-Scissors" War? I seem to recall a bond movie based on it just cant recall the name.

Well if enough people grief about it will be nerfed and if it effects the metagame to drastically (whether it was balanced before) it will be nerfed. After it was nerfed people will say that is was a good thing and anyone who says the nerf destroyed the skill or was uncalled for will be told to adapt and change there tatics. Its a cycle one that makes me wish Anet would give up this PvE-PvP crossover thing and just seperate the game.

skaspaakssa
14-11-2006, 03:50
I found the whole Rock Paper Scissors thing really entertaining :)

IMHO, if you rely on having 1 of ~3 Necromancer skills to counter 1 skill, I would find that overpowering not because it's uncounterable, but because there aren't enough counters. That kind of depends on personal opinion though... Note: I'm not saying Incoming is necessarily overpowered, I don't know enough to have a definite opinion =\

Arctus Redryn
14-11-2006, 04:30
The point I'm trying to make is that Guild Wars *is* balanced. It's balanced by the community. If your enemies are using SF, use Extinguish or Heal Party. If your enemies are using Paragon shouts, use Ulcerous Lungs or Vocal Minority. You only need one copy (maybe two) of the skill and the ability to protect them (your opponents will of course try to shut down your Ulcerous Lungs spammer, so you have to use on-the-fly tactics to protect your hate skills from easy counters).

SF would be imbalanced if skills like Heal Party and Extinguish didn't exist. However, Extinguish was put into the game as a buffer skill. If SF concentrations get too high, then players adapt and play Extinguish. When SF concentrations go down and another build starts dominating, players begin playing other skills. Incoming! is a powerful skill, but it's susceptible to hate (most notably, you can simply split vs. Paragons, but you can also *GASP* time your spikes to the 10-15 seconds when Incoming! isn't up... I know a 15 second window is a little bit small for players who routinely time Airspikes down to 1/10th of a second).

If you can't split or can't find room for Extinguish, then your build isn't flexible enough to survive and needs to be changed. Simple. Arguing that your build *should* be able to survive is ludicrous. If it can't, your build isn't good enough. Period. Wait, I meant to add, "lern2play" somewhere in there.

Actually, "Incoming!" is a turtle skill, akin to the Victory or Death Ritualists. It might not be overpowered, but it certainly brings us back to the Victory or Death tactic, and that was not cool. And I might note that "Incoming!" as a Victory or Death skill is not quite as vulnerable to splits as you would like to think.

And yes, there are a few skills that directly counter "Incoming!", but as spaspaakssa notes, there may not be enough counters. And a skill need not be overpowered to require a change. Because many Paragons now only use "Incoming!", there is a reduction in the variety of strategy, and changing "Incoming!", even if it is merely a good skill, could be required if it increases variety and innovation. Was Shelter overpowered? Of course not, but it caused guild battles to become stagnant, both during battle and in innovation. Thus, with "Incoming!", it might not even be a balance problem.

Note also that a comparison between "Incoming!" and Searing Flames is not a good one. Searing Flames is a spell requires a lot of support to use, and thus can be fairly easily shut down. On the other hand, "Incoming!" is a shout that works as an independent skill, and so it is much more difficult to shut down.

It is easy to say a skill is overpowered, but sometimes it is even easier to say a skill is not as a reaction. Coming up with a viable set of skills and testing it is the only proof.

NeferJackal
14-11-2006, 08:52
Actually, "Incoming!" is a turtle skill, akin to the Victory or Death Ritualists. It might not be overpowered, but it certainly brings us back to the Victory or Death tactic, and that was not cool. And I might note that "Incoming!" as a Victory or Death skill is not quite as vulnerable to splits as you would like to think.

And yes, there are a few skills that directly counter "Incoming!", but as spaspaakssa notes, there may not be enough counters. And a skill need not be overpowered to require a change. Because many Paragons now only use "Incoming!", there is a reduction in the variety of strategy, and changing "Incoming!", even if it is merely a good skill, could be required if it increases variety and innovation. Was Shelter overpowered? Of course not, but it caused guild battles to become stagnant, both during battle and in innovation. Thus, with "Incoming!", it might not even be a balance problem.

Note also that a comparison between "Incoming!" and Searing Flames is not a good one. Searing Flames is a spell requires a lot of support to use, and thus can be fairly easily shut down. On the other hand, "Incoming!" is a shout that works as an independent skill, and so it is much more difficult to shut down.

It is easy to say a skill is overpowered, but sometimes it is even easier to say a skill is not as a reaction. Coming up with a viable set of skills and testing it is the only proof.

Well said, this was precisely what I meant in Incomming being too good at what it does. I run a Paragon myself, and ive been trying to foster more originality in my guild for builds. Though they would prefer that i always ran Incomming. Incomming is good, but it is quickly becomming a crutch like Ritual Lord for Rits.

JoeKnowMo
14-11-2006, 10:42
Here is the history of one of the most popular strategy games of all time, "Rock-Paper-Scissors" (sometimes mistaken for an imitator game, "Ro-Sham-Bo"). Up until 1972, most people claimed that Rock was too powerful. And up until 1972, that was mostly true. The top Rock-Paper-Scissors players used Rock over 95% of the time, and experts claimed that tactic was unbeatable. After losing the World Championship title in 1969, Tigran "Winning With Scissors" Petroleum of the USSR remarked that the game should have been called, "Rock-Rock-Rock." Other experts agreed, calling for a "nerf" to the clearly "OPd strat."

However, the World Federation refused to nerf Rock. The spokesperson claimed, "Rock players are some of our most devout fans. Nerfing Rock would only alienate players. If players want to beat Rock, they should try new tactics or strategies." This outraged the Scissors community, and the Scissors community boycotted the game.

Nonetheless, for the next three years, Boris "The Rock" Spazki from the USSR dominated play with his commanding Rock, beating experts around the world with either hand, even playing up to 12 games at the same time against grandmasters. In an interview, Spazki admitted that Rock was overpowered, saying that he "[could] not see any way to beat it, and that nerfing it would be justified."

However, in 1972, a brilliant, but antisocial player from the United States stepped forward to try to claim the title from the Russians. Bobby "The Paper Boy" Fisher in a press conference commented that he had analyzed the metagame and was going to use a strategy to beat the Russian champion. Spazki laughed a the idea, repeatedly calling Fischer a "noob" and adding that he would "pwnxxor j00" and alluded to having sexual intercourse with Fisher's mother. Fisher, for his part, shocked the world by winning the best of 3 match 2-0 by using Paper twice. After the match, a clearly distraught Spazki claimed the tactic had never occurred to him. He returned to the USSR in disgrace.

As of 2006, Paper is still the dominating play style. The only recorded loss of a paper player was to a supercomputer. In the match between Casperof and Shallow Blue (the Rock-Paper-Scissors supercomputer), Shallow Blue used the archaic strategy of Scissors. Casperof ended up losing the match, but attributed his loss to fatigue, "Computers don't get tired... in long matches when it goes to game three, sometimes you just get tired and can't calculate as far as you'd like." He didn't see this loss as foreshadowing the collapse of the Paper strategy, "Paper can't lose... it even beats Rock."

Many players now call for Paper to be nerfed, saying that "teh metagamz is like teh imbalzned u no?" Paper players disagree, saying that Paper is powerful but balanced, and that with proper play, you can beat a Paper player. They cite Casperof's loss to Shallow Blue. Rock players disagree, claiming that they've analyzed all the skills available and can't see a way a human could beat Paper.

Still others claim that buffer skills need to be added to the format. Abilities like Extinguish and Ulcerous Lungs could keep powerful builds in check. Most players agree, however, that no matter how distorted the metagame looks, they won't resort to using "noob hate skills" like Extinguish or Ulcerous Lungs, and that they will continue to petition the World Rock-Paper-Scissors Federation to nerf Paper rather than change their own playstyle.

On the topic of buffer skills, a Paper player remarked, "Extinguish doesn't even make sense in Rock-Paper-Scissors. What would it even do? Extinguish paper? That doesn't make sense!" A Rock player shot back that Paper beating Rock doesn't make sense, either, and that any self-respecting Rock would rip the Paper to shreds. The Paper player rebuked, "Of course it doesn't make sense to you. You play Rock in a Paper metagame. You're retarded!"

One of the best posts I've read in a very long time. Very apt.

JodoKast
14-11-2006, 13:55
I found the whole Rock Paper Scissors thing really entertaining :)

IMHO, if you rely on having 1 of ~3 Necromancer skills to counter 1 skill, I would find that overpowering not because it's uncounterable, but because there aren't enough counters. That kind of depends on personal opinion though... Note: I'm not saying Incoming is necessarily overpowered, I don't know enough to have a definite opinion =\

The thing is that the metagame is dynamic. If you bring for a time heavy counter to a tactic, it'll get less played and you'll need less heavy counter in the future.

Balance is a iterative process, not something that happens out of the blue. With new skills and game mechanisms, it is perfectly normal to see some quickly found powerful combo being overused

Fownkaymownkay
14-11-2006, 15:15
Forbiddian totally owned everybody. hahahaha.


Okay so, Degen>Incoming, right? And what can Paragons dish out, really well? Degen. AKA, Burning. Okay, so you say that "z0mg Extinguish pawnz0rs Burning". So... what about Mesmers? Necromancers? I don't think Incoming is IMBALANCED, Vocal Minority+Sympathetic Visage+Degen Hex+Cover Hex (like Parasitic Bond) is very good, seeing as Expunge hexes will only take off the top two.

Plus, SV takes out warriors at the same time, degen hexes are always nice, and everybody likes a cover hex. Well. Everybody on your team. So you really aren't dedicating 4 skills to taking out Incoming Paragons, but 4 skills just happen to be able to take 'em out very well :grin:.

waywrong
14-11-2006, 17:39
Forbiddian totally owned everybody. hahahaha.


Okay so, Degen>Incoming, right? And what can Paragons dish out, really well? Degen. AKA, Burning. Okay, so you say that "z0mg Extinguish pawnz0rs Burning". So... what about Mesmers? Necromancers? I don't think Incoming is IMBALANCED, Vocal Minority+Sympathetic Visage+Degen Hex+Cover Hex (like Parasitic Bond) is very good, seeing as Expunge hexes will only take off the top two.

Plus, SV takes out warriors at the same time, degen hexes are always nice, and everybody likes a cover hex. Well. Everybody on your team. So you really aren't dedicating 4 skills to taking out Incoming Paragons, but 4 skills just happen to be able to take 'em out very well :grin:.

I'm of the opinion that Incoming is slightly on the powerful side, enough to warrant shaving a second, maybe two off the duration scaling, but not enough to warrant a severe beating with a nerf bat; so if you want to discount my opinion as a noob whining about rock being imba in rock-paper-scissors, more power to you....But you do realize that you just listed FOUR skills (ie half of someone's skill bar) to counter a single skill, right? One of them being Vocal Minority?

Even if you say Paragons supplying monks with infinite energy is too powerful, and Vocal Minority(Shout/Chant shutdown) will evolve into a must have skill in the Metagame, it still takes half your skill bar to shut down 1 skill, barring interrupts, or whatever wrench that might be thrown into your plans.

I'm not currently arguing for or against nerfing Incoming, but if your argument is "it takes 3 to 4 hexes to shut down one Paragon skill, with one of the skills being a very situational one, thus Incoming is not overpowered," your arguement is pretty weak.

Incoming does have limitations. A lot of Nightfall guildhalls are very splittable, and hexing is one of the Paragon's weaknesses, but you have to admit, that the skill is one of the more powerful ones, and might turn many of GvG games into a drawn out VoD fest.

The metagame will evolve around new powerful skills that come out, but you still have to look at the skill and make a judgement. Anet is not infallibe, they do skill balances all the time. If Anet comes out with a skill that: "If this skill hits a target that is suffering from at least four hexes and at least one condition, the target dies and suffers 60% death penalty." Sure, the metagame will evolve, everyone will end up packing tons of hex removal, but does that mean the skill shouldn't be looked at? Because the metagame has adapted? Granted, the example I've given is a lot more extreme than Incoming, but I hope you see my point.

I do see the point you guys are making in this thread about criticizing so early. The game has not been given a chance to react to the new skills yet. Maybe my view that Incoming should have a slightly shorter duration is unsound, but that's just the way some people see the skill right now.

Derailment: as I typed that, I just realized that if most games end up as splits to counter the paragon chants/shouts energy engine, then Incoming becomes wholly unncessary, because it's probably not worth it to spend an elite to counter damage from a split, no matter how spiky it is.

NeferJackal
14-11-2006, 18:11
Well said, waywrong.

It has been some good posts that have been bought up, so perhaps i should restate mine since it seems to have been missed.

I do not hate Paragons, far from it. But this topic is about encouraging diversity in Paragon builds, and not lock them in an onetrick build everyone will expect is all we are capable of. Precisely like how Ritual Lord pretty much was the only elite that mattered for Ritualists in the early days of Factions.

Incomming is too good compared to the other elites the Paragon sports. People refuse to consider anything else beside Song of Restoration when I play on my Paragon. My guild was openminded enough to let me try handling condition removal instead of the monks, with the superb Song of Purification. Which went well enough, but they think I matter more as an Incommingon and sporting a slew of command shouts.

And if you go look in HA, you will only hear that Incomming and Song of Restoration are wanted, with a heavy bias towards Incomming.


Some suggestions for buffing other paragon elites:

Angelic Bond: It needs to have an indicator on if your ally is affected by it, and an inbuilt damage reduction component. Elsewise it will never see any serious use, because of the lack of Paragon energy regen pips, as this is not a shout/chant.

Defensive Anthem: It badly needs to be reworked. There is absolutely no reason to bring this over Aegis, as an elite even. Reduce cost to 10 energy, recharge to 20s. And get rid of the condition to loose it. Then imo, it becomes a viable elite skill choice, that is stronger than monk aegis, being unstrippable. And remember, while this helps defend against physical attackers, it does nothing against spell damage.

Anthem of Fury: Reduce recharge to 10, and you should have a very desirable choice to fuel a warrior/paragon adrenaline engine.

The Power is Yours!: Reduce the cost to 5, and double the energy given out, and it will begin to get interesting to use. I want the cost reduced, because as it is now, you cannot use it every 20 seconds. With 2 regen pips, you will regen 6 energy over 10 seconds. And it costs 10 energy to cast, so you wont have enough to blow it right after the recharge comes back up.

Its just a Flesh Wound: Here i am totally stumped, this doesnt seem like a skill for a primary paragon. As they do not have the energy for endurance casting of it. Monks got a much better skill choice in Restore Condition.

Cautery Signet: Reduce the recharge to 10 seconds and activation to 1 second.

rentauri
14-11-2006, 19:04
Well said, waywrong.

It has been some good posts that have been bought up, so perhaps i should restate mine since it seems to have been missed.

I do not hate Paragons, far from it. But this topic is about encouraging diversity in Paragon builds, and not lock them in an onetrick build everyone will expect is all we are capable of. Precisely like how Ritual Lord pretty much was the only elite that mattered for Ritualists in the early days of Factions.

So the only way to encourage diversity is to nerf a skill? What happens when the next skill becomes the most dominant, say Song of Restoration, and the diversity you want to foster is destoryed because only Paragons use SoR? Will we nerf it?

For my build there are only two elites that work, or that I want, Defensive Anthem and Incoming. Whether Incoming is overpowered or not doesnt matter because Defensive Anthem to me sucks. I used it and didnt like how it worked at all so I went to Incoming. Oh well, good money bets the skill will be nerfed if it is screwing with the glorious metagame guess I should practice working with a sub par elites that the paragon has.



Incomming is too good compared to the other elites the Paragon sports.

Probably because the other elites arent very good. Spear Mastery elites and Song of Restoration aside the other elites of the Paragon are bland not truly that good.




And if you go look in HA, you will only hear that Incomming and Song of Restoration are wanted, with a heavy bias towards Incomming.


Isnt that like all cookie cutters out there? Granted this is a PvE outlook seeing it but on missions people only want a certain thing. Woe be the smite monk trying to find a group no matter how good he is.

Patccmoi
14-11-2006, 20:41
While this whole talk about the nerfing cycle was entertaining, as someone else said sometimes it's easier to say 'don't nerf' than 'nerf'. Some skills DO need nerfs (if anyone argues against Energizing Finale they need to play GvG sometimes where now every monk has a good 7-8 pips equivalent of energy regen because of it dragging games forever).

The way i saw Incoming with its first stats was a spike counter. You used incoming when the other team tried to spike. The low duration didn't matter much, because if a spike doesn't kill in 3-4s, it won't unless monks are dead.

The problem with the raised duration is that now it's the other way around. It's not the Paragon that has to time Incoming, it's the other team that has to time AROUND incoming because it lasts so freaking long. That +2s might not seem much, but in fact it changes a lot.

Degen is nice and all but honestly you don't kill through degen unless the full other team is sleeping. Heal Party spam is available to a team 99% of the games and this alone counters around -8 degen on everybody. Then you have monks who very often now carry BLight + Divert Hexes which makes hex stacking really hard. There are ways around all of this ofc (our current GvG build IS a hex build and includes Ulcerous Lungs and Vocal Minority) but it doesn't mean that counters to Shouts are sufficient atm. I also saw quite a bit of Paragons with 13 Motivation-12 Command-8 Leadership-9 Spear-3 Tactics using Incoming + Energizing Finale + Go for the Eyes! + Watch Yourself! + Ballad of Restoration + Aria of Zeal + Mending Refrain... seriously they counter degen as well as direct damage while providing a good armor buff + insane energy and decent offense buff... it's pretty scary when there is only 1 hex and 1 well (a well, right that's a counter) in the game countering it.

I can live with Incoming! atm because we work around it, but there is truly no real counter in the game. Degen nearly never kills in 8v8, it just pressures, it's direct damage that can kill. But Incoming! stops direct damage quite well. It stops PRESSURE direct damage instead of spike damage, that's the problem i see with it atm. With Watch Yourself! + Incoming! pressure damage nearly vanishes and all GvG games end up at VoD because it's nearly impossible to kill before you reach that point.

I'm all for variation in builds, i make my own GvG builds not using FotM stuff most of the time and we usually go counter-meta instead of following it. But sometimes skills ARE too good even if there's way around. You can say that degen was a counter to Shelter-Union too, but really Shelter-Union was broken and provided ridiculous defense that more or less never went down. Paragons are providing that right now, huge defense and energy gain that doesn't really stop. And yes, it's likely going to be nerfed because atm you must nearly be stupid not to pick a Paragon if you go for a 8v8 fight. Their one counter (i don't count well cause seriously it's a joke, you can easily walk 2 steps to the left and keep shouting the range is big) is actually much more heavily countered by the meta and the only way to have even a remote chance of keeping it on a Paragon is to have a build fully devoted to hex, which doesn't actually care much about a Paragon in the first place except his party heal. But if 1 char forces a FULL BUILD to change, i don't think it's actually fine.

It's not like it would've been hard to include more counters to it either while helping unused skills. For example Shroud of Silence could've prevented Shouts or Chants (it makes sense no?), Daze could've affected Shouts and Chants by making them cost more energy or last half duration, etc. Atm there is so little counters to Paragons available that it's really hard to do something about them, and Incoming! is actually a small part of it and likely not the most important.

NeferJackal
14-11-2006, 21:23
Just for some added input. I am playing 6man HA with another paragon whom runs incomming. Between the two of us, there will only be a window of 6 seconds without any incomming active. Absurdly good for a Holding build.

Forbiddian
15-11-2006, 00:41
"I'm all for variation in builds[...]. But if 1 char forces a FULL BUILD to change, i don't think it's actually fine."

Oh noes! The new campaign made me change my style of play! I never thought that increasing the profession base by 30% and increasing the number of available skills by 30% would change anything!

"[...] you must nearly be stupid not to pick a Paragon if you go for a 8v8 fight."

There are a total of 9 classes (professions) in Guild Wars. Stay with me here, because the math gets a little bit difficult. Each team in GvG is composed of 8 players. Okay. Now, if you can remember from previously in this short paragraph, there are 9 classes in Guild Wars. Okay, 8/9 is about 89%. That means that if Paragons are "balanced" 89% of teams should have one.

If Paragons are balanced, almost every team *should* use one. Therefore, you have no point whatsoever and you kinda look like maybe you must be nearly stupid or something.


By comparison, Monks are on approximately 200% of teams (each team carries two). So nerf Monks! Plus, healing is just a huge VoD stall-tactic, and they're overpowered anyway. Like I used Power Attack on this Monk, and he cast Reversal of Fortune or some overpowered skill like that. Anyway, it reduced my damage to zero *AND* healed him by 20 health. It took me like 10 seconds to take off that 20 health, and he just healed it in 1/4th.

Patccmoi
15-11-2006, 03:22
"I'm all for variation in builds[...]. But if 1 char forces a FULL BUILD to change, i don't think it's actually fine."

Oh noes! The new campaign made me change my style of play! I never thought that increasing the profession base by 30% and increasing the number of available skills by 30% would change anything!

"[...] you must nearly be stupid not to pick a Paragon if you go for a 8v8 fight."

There are a total of 9 classes (professions) in Guild Wars. Stay with me here, because the math gets a little bit difficult. Each team in GvG is composed of 8 players. Okay. Now, if you can remember from previously in this short paragraph, there are 9 classes in Guild Wars. Okay, 8/9 is about 89%. That means that if Paragons are "balanced" 89% of teams should have one.

If Paragons are balanced, almost every team *should* use one. Therefore, you have no point whatsoever and you kinda look like maybe you must be nearly stupid or something.


By comparison, Monks are on approximately 200% of teams (each team carries two). So nerf Monks! Plus, healing is just a huge VoD stall-tactic, and they're overpowered anyway. Like I used Power Attack on this Monk, and he cast Reversal of Fortune or some overpowered skill like that. Anyway, it reduced my damage to zero *AND* healed him by 20 health. It took me like 10 seconds to take off that 20 health, and he just healed it in 1/4th.

Talking to people as if they're stupid doesn't make your point any more valid.

I don't care about changing my style of play, i always do even if nothing is added. But when direct damage is negated (or reduced drastically) and monks get infinite energy, you eliminate about 90% of possible builds. Actually people still use the same builds, except games are big stalemate and offense only starts working at VoD with -25% max health and +25% damage. And that makes for boring play, and anything turning the game into a borefest should be tweaked somehow because a game is supposed to be fun, no? As i said, we're running hexes atm and we're actually able to handle that metagame, but few other builds can (well, they can, at VoD if they ALSO have the same Para).

And your 'if they're balanced almost every team should have one' makes no sense. Math is fun and everything, but i don't see Necros, Rangers, Assassins, Dervishes or Ritualists in nearly every game. Monks are the only versatile healers, so ofc you'll see 2. It might be a game design flaw, but that's how it is. But for team protection you have lots of options (wards, rt spirits, etc.), except Paragon outclasses all of them and have the least ability to shutdown.

I don't know if you play any competitive GvG, but if you do you should've notice by now what kind of boredom Motivation Paragons turned the game into.

rentauri
15-11-2006, 03:39
So has this turned form nerf Incoming to nerf shouting?

This was originally posted as a nerf to Incoming to as the OP said: 'encouraging diversity in Paragon builds, and not lock them in an onetrick build everyone will expect is all we are capable of.’ But now we have monks getting infinte energy to that needs to be nerfed (which I dont know about I havent worked much with Motivation so I will stay out of that).

So can we have a list of all the skills that need nerfed or is it just those two?

Patccmoi
15-11-2006, 04:38
So has this turned form nerf Incoming to nerf shouting?

This was originally posted as a nerf to Incoming to as the OP said: 'encouraging diversity in Paragon builds, and not lock them in an onetrick build everyone will expect is all we are capable of. But now we have monks getting infinte energy to that needs to be nerfed (which I dont know about I havent worked much with Motivation so I will stay out of that).

So can we have a list of all the skills that need nerfed or is it just those two?

Well really it's not really nerf shouting, but i'd really like to see instead buff Shouting COUNTERS. Or, actually, include some. There is only 1 and it's a hex that is quite prone to be removed.

There is one truly broken skill imo and it's Energizing Finale. I think that Watch Yourself! is kinda broken too since it's Earshot range (it was always balanced at Nearby range, why they put it at Earshot i have no clue, +20AL to everyone on the team at all time breaks the balance of all other skills that are reduced by armor) but that's not actually a Paragon skill it just works better on Paragon since it helps their energy and their midline so they can affect your frontline and backline at the same time. Energizing Finale + Watch Yourself! gives everyone much more resistance while granting Monks infinite energy and there is really little flaw in that defense. Monk skills aren't balanced to have infinite energy backing them.

Incoming! i think was better with its old stats (1..4s) where it was actually a spike counter. Note that Paragon has other damage reduction skills that are extremely potent like They're on Fire! or Angelic Bond. The difference is that these have counters (remove burning, throw so much damage that the Paragon dies, etc.) But it's not a skill i would scream 'NERF NOW!', because while being incredible it does have a downtime at least.

Problem with Paragons is that to shutdown their shouting you have to shutdown everything about them. Total EDenial, total blind or counter to prevent adrenaline gain (because with Watch Yourself! spam they can actually counter EDenial really easily), etc. You can't really interrupt (some Chants you can, but at 1s cast while being quite possible to interrupt they're still not easy interrupts especially since most Mesmer interrupts can't stop them and Ranger interrupts aren't foolproof at all), few hexes will bother them all that much, etc. While you can shutdown a warrior with blind or a caster with EDenial/anti-cast hexes/daze, there is very few things working on a Paragon, and their skill are FAR from weaker to justify how hard they are to stop.

So what i think is truly lacking is Paragon counters. The skills would be more balanced if you could do something to prevent them. But Energizing Finale isn't fair and never will be even if counter are introduced. 2 Paragons can allow 6 people to have truly infinite energy with only 1 skill slot really devoted to it (the rest being shouts/chants that are useful in their own right). Hell, a team with massive Paragon defense held HoH for 7 hours straight because other teams had no real way to go through their defense.

Since currently no such counter exists, yes i think they need to be toned down. I'm not asking for a total destruction of the class, but they shouldn't totally dominate every other team support option.

Ju Smurph
15-11-2006, 04:57
I don't think there is a problem with Incoming at the moment... I run an energizing Finale/Incoming in our GvGs and quite simply watching for spikes and keeping the monks energy growing is no small feat. Further... vocal minority is generally a case of 1 skill beats 8. You just run around like an idiot for a while until the hex is removed... gives the other team a decent oppurtunity to send a spike...

Fownkaymownkay
15-11-2006, 09:25
But you do realize that you just listed FOUR skills (ie half of someone's skill bar) to counter a single skill, right? One of them being Vocal Minority?
More like: 1 hex of 4 takes out this paragon, with the other 3 taking out other various foes as well. SV - (most) Warriors are done for. Degen - Good for pressure, no matter what class the foe is. Cover Hex - Well.. you need one.


I'm not currently arguing for or against nerfing Incoming, but if your argument is "it takes 3 to 4 hexes to shut down one Paragon skill, with one of the skills being a very situational one, thus Incoming is not overpowered," your arguement is pretty weak
Uhh. So you are saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE that this Paragon doesn't have an adrenaline skill in there? Or a shout? 'Cause you know, using shouts with a Paragon is stupid, right? Maybe is a spear/command Paragon, thereby relying on adrenaline to use 3-4 of his skills, and Vocal Minority takes out his shouts?

So, no. those 3-4 hexes doesn't take out 1 Paragon skill, but possibly 3/4s of his entire bar. And maybe 3/4s of a Warrior's bar too, come to think of it. SV isn't a one-trick horse, though VM might be.


Oh, and to be clear on my stance on this topic: Incoming, imo, needs a second or two shaved off, so I'm in agreement on that with you waywrong.

Auntie I
15-11-2006, 12:02
<snip>
There are a total of 9 classes (professions) in Guild Wars. <snip>
OK, I missed something here. Last time I checked there were 10 professions available to be played.

6 Core Professions: Elementalist, Mesmer, Monk, Necromancer, Ranger and Warrior

2 Factions Professions: Assassin and Ritualist

2 Nightfall Professions: Dervish and Paragon

I know I learned math before the "New Math" came in but 6 + 2 + 2 still equals 10 not 9.

As to the argument that Paragons are essential (BTW, stop calling people stupid) I neither agree or disagree. The Metagame hasn't developed enough to determine this as yet. My personal opinion if that there shouldn't be any one profession that absolutely HAS to be used....including Monk, and Yes, I do know the rest of the world doesn't agree with me. Sometimes I don't agree with myself.... :rolleyes: :laughing: However please note that I used the word "should", in my opinion the duplication of a particular profession in a group has more to do with the role within the group rather than the profession. ie 2 monks...1 healing, 1 protection...their roles are different even though the professions are the same.

Paragon elites, remind me of the state that Elementalist elites had been in before the recent changes. There were a few elites that people used because they are decent, not great, just decent. The others still don't get a lot of playing time because they aren't decent or they're situational. Discussing amongst ourselves whether a skill should be changed is perfectly all right. In fact I encourage it, quite often the opposing views reveal so many new ways to use that skill and everyone that reads it is educated.

Well, I guess my math lesson went a bit farther than I had intended. So I'll leave you with this final thought. Agree...disagree...I don't care, but you will keep it polite or I will be grumpy! You don't want me to be grumpy.

Fownkaymownkay
15-11-2006, 12:07
I know I learned math before the "New Math" came in but 6 + 2 + 2 still equals 10 not 9.
Hahaha, aww Auntie, you aren't THAT old.. are you? :shocked:

Auntie I
15-11-2006, 12:08
Hahaha, aww Auntie, you aren't THAT old.. are you? :shocked:

Never you mind! :grin: