[Minor Dev Update] Heroes' Ascent

[Gaile]

Hi, all,

Lately, there have been quite a few posts on the subject of PvP--nothing new, of course--but specifically on the subject of Heroes and HA. Now, most of you are level-headed enough to appreciate how much we obviously care about PvP, and I'm sure that a lot of you wisely have confidence that we're quietly weighing the issues that you present. After all, our objectives, as devs, are the same as your objectives, as players: To have the best, most competitive, and most fun experience possible in Heroes' Ascent.

So here's today's bit of news, brief but timely: The designers have read your thoughts on the current Heroes' Ascent, and we are aware that a goodly number of you feel that Heroes are having a tad too much impact upon the gameplay, choices of builds, etc. So, we're going to take a look at setting a limit on the number of Heroes that can be included in a game in Heroes' Ascent. No numbers yet, nor exact timeline for the decision to be finalized, but there you are.

Now, if you want to speculate on that, and share your thoughts, go for it! Keep in mind that all input is welcome, though none can be guaranteed to be the final solution. Also remember that this subject is about Heroes' Ascent and Heroes, not "Change it back to 8v8." That may be a subject for another day, but for right now, Heroes, Heroes' Ascent, etc, eh?

You post, we read, and thanks. :wave:

[Ju Smurph]

3 Heroes max... any less and it would kill the point of it... heck you can take 4 henchies if you want.

My opinion as simple as can be.

[DreamWind]

Increase the number to 5 per team just for kicks and giggles is what I say. :grin:

[defrule]

Take them out completely. That would be a godsend.

[Ju Smurph]

Take them out completely. That would be a godsend.

For whom?

Yourself?

Got selfish?

[defrule]

For whom?

Yourself?

Got selfish?

You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Is it right for you to try to shoot down mine?

[Ju Smurph]

I'm not shooting down your opinion.

I'm shooting down the general incestuous, esoteric, elitist opinion of "keep the nubs out." Seriously...

I hope before they implement any discussion they at least wait a few weeks for people to slip up the ranks a bit so maybe they can get into some groups. I'm not pro-henchway, but its damn better than never playing HA. Given the two options... yeah.

[Lord Natural]

Fine the way it is, IMO. New players to HA always used to complain that it was impossible to find a team without rank. Now that's not as much of an issue. If you have rank, or play with a guild or friends, the hero population reduces the amount of map skips. More fame for everyone :wink:

[TeeBeeNZ]

My guild spent a few days in there teaching a new guy the ropes and we saw nothing but heros, most of it was fine but there was some specific builds we had expected to become issues in nightfall which arrived sooner than we thought. Fire degen builds. With nightfall comes a big boost to burning and its easy using the mage hench and 2-3 ele heros to make a build where essentialy the other team is always on fire. It can be blocked but the counter perhaps isnt as strong as it should be, a boost to extinguishs burning heal next update perhaps. Never the less if the skill which causes buring on the mage hench was replaced with something else it might help tone down those builds a bit.

We also noticed that heros AI freaks out if knocked down and doesnt seem to know what to do boosting the AIs ability to scramble in these situations would also help.

Being in a small guild I know how important heros are for PvP, but a limit on them wouldnt be so bad if it still gave people options. Perhaps not a hero limitation but a profession limtation? Only 2 of any profession type per team? I dunno.... just thinking out loud.

[lifeinthefridge]

make it 5 real people one hero per team k thx or remove them completly and while your at it raise the price of sigils to 50k premanent because its ridiculous how low theve gotten and how dumb it is to get somthing in The Hall of Heros worth 5k....... it used to be exciting to get one and it really should be a challenge to get a guild hall...for new players besides that most older players have money

[Ju Smurph]

Fine the way it is, IMO. New players to HA always used to complain that it was impossible to find a team without rank. Now that's not as much of an issue. If you have rank, or play with a guild or friends, the hero population reduces the amount of map skips. More fame for everyone :wink:

Well said...

[bellissima]

Well here's my thoughts... Previously (when HA was 8v8) there was a limit of 4 NPCs on a team because there were only 4 available. If we translate that to 6v6 and add in that now there are many more NPCs available, we could set a limit that a group must have at least 3 "live" players before they can enter to face the Zaishen.

[Bacon]

Remove them. Please, pleeeeeeease remove them completely. That's my opinion, [WTB]'s opinion, and 7 other r10+'s on my friend list's opinions



Lately, there have been quite a few posts on the subject of PvP--nothing new, of course--but specifically on the subject of Heroes and HA. Now, most of you are level-headed enough to appreciate how much we obviously care about PvP, and I'm sure that a lot of you wisely have confidence that we're quietly weighing the issues that you present. After all, our objectives, as devs, are the same as your objectives, as players: To have the best, most competitive, and most fun experience possible in Heroes' Ascent.

Honestly, I didn't think you guys cared, nor were you discussing it. I guess I was wrong. And I do hope the day about discussing bring 8v8 back is very soon.

(off topic)
Please set a price floor on sigils. That was my only source of income. 15-20k+ sell price would work. 5k, I don't think so.

[Ju Smurph]

Remove them. Please, pleeeeeeease remove them completely. That's my opinion, [WTB]'s opinion, and 7 other r10+'s on my friend list's opinions

Two things about this that irk me.

1) you are rank 10... why should you care what other people do. obviously you can roll them with your skills.

2) these signing for friends crap... in another thread someone signed for the spearmen against heroway but i have seen and beaten spear running heroway.

[Echo Darkwynd]

Fine the way it is, IMO. New players to HA always used to complain that it was impossible to find a team without rank. Now that's not as much of an issue. If you have rank, or play with a guild or friends, the hero population reduces the amount of map skips. More fame for everyone :wink:

Agreed. In fact, I'm enjoying HA more now than ever before.

[Bacon]

Two things about this that irk me.

1) you are rank 10... why should you care what other people do. obviously you can roll them with your skills.

2) these signing for friends crap... in another thread someone signed for the spearmen against heroway but i have seen and beaten spear running heroway.

1) Obviously we can roll them. Every single map we play, we roll heroways. UW is us vs heroway. Broken tower is us vs heroway vs heroway. Scarred earth, it's us vs at least one heroway. Courtyard, us vs at least one heroway. Halls, us vs at least one heroway. Demolishing heroway over and over, even in halls, is not our idea of fun, nor an accomplishment.

2) I can't sign for my own guild? Nor the people we invite to come along with us if we're short one? mmkay...

[Ju Smurph]

Sign for yourself... as yourself. Putting words in others mouths benefits no one...

Oh and if you want real accomplishment... play GvG. HA has never been an accomplishment for a long long time now. If your not having fun i can understand that. Thats a fair reason, but what of others fun, they paid as much as you for the game, but they can't play HA...

[Erasculio]

Putting words in others mouths benefits no one....

...Especially if you don't prove it.

Erasculio

[ELT]

I vote for keep it how it is right now because it's possible to go there alone or with a friend and try out diferent builds. Its really fun when you beat a full human team, it's easy to set up and quite chalenging to win not using searing flames builds ( Nerf that first first :D ). It's still PVP but with bots who's skills equipement and weapons were chosen by a humans and can be controled by humans. Like in real time strategy games (warcraft, starcraft, ... ) those games are PVP and all troops are controled by humans or not. So 2 me its still pvp because humans can have a lot of control on the AI or not people willl always complain no mather what and every1 cant be 100% happy ;)

If Heroes in HA really has to be nerfed: I would say 2 or 3 human minimum in a team. This would be the best and most even choice right in the middle on the 2 extremes of HA players (no heros or full heroes). Right in the middle cant be more even and make the HA a better place to every 1 :)

[nooboguy]

I have posted on the forums before on this topic. I play HA both with a guild and more casually with my three children. When I play with the guild we prefer to have all human players, but if we are one short we'll take a hero along. (generally a monk). When I play with my kids, since there's four of us, we prefer to take two heroes rather than pug, as most people do not have the patience to deal with our family antics. So from a personal preference standpoint limiting heroes to either 1 or two (or possibly 1 hero and 1 hench) would be great.

Overall, I find that Heroes are spoiling the fun in HA. There are just too many teams running hero-heavy or hero-only teams, and it's just not that fun to play against those teams (not from a difficulty standpoint, just from an enjoyment factor. Perhaps it is fun for them, and I would not want to limit someone else's fun. However, if people want to beat up on each other with hero-only team, there is already an arena for that purpose).

So while I would like to still have the option to have 1 or 2 heroes, I will not complain if they are totally removed from HA.

Another suggestion I have made before is to allow the max number of heroes, but introduce a fame penalty for every hero in the party (so you could have a hero-only team if you wanted to test a peculiar build, but it would either cost you fame, or not get you any fame until you won a substantial number of matches). Overall however, I suspect that this would probably upset more people than a straight limit.

Anet, thank you for listening

[lifeinthefridge]

Sign for yourself... as yourself. Putting words in others mouths benefits no one...

Oh and if you want real accomplishment... play GvG. HA has never been an accomplishment for a long long time now. If your not having fun i can understand that. Thats a fair reason, but what of others fun, they paid as much as you for the game, but they can't play HA...

yes because heros have really helped new players /sarcasm ,but thats ok diminish the enjoyment or even point to play HA even further.... theres no point... to play ... nothing was wrong with HA anet dint have to touch it..nope..it should have stayed 8v8 and they should have not destroyed the only real permanant record for a high end pvp. Just because you believe GvG shows real skill you must be right ...right? And I dont believe he put any words in anyones mouth so gg

HA was a place for all pvp players to interact and play on the same team of 8 if they werent in the same guild and acted as another high end pvp aka reward Emotes and Your name being spammed across the game

[DoomFrost]

1 Hero max per player. That way you can still bring heros along but only if you have 3 players in the team willing to bring them.

[Deford]

Leave full hero/hench teams in.

p.s. Surveys like this one have a huge selection bias issue. Not that I suspect you care but if you believe the results of a forum thread of this nature to have any external validity you're sadly mistaken.

[Ju Smurph]

And I dont believe he put any words in anyones mouth so gg

Read his previous post where he tries to speak for a few guilds and a dozen players. "gg"? is that some elitist exclamation mark or something? :rolleyes:


Surveys like this one have a huge selection bias issue. I'm sure they check the numbers of how many people play... it would interesting to know and further how many new players Heroway has brought to the table.

[NTsan]

I personally think that HA should be strictly human only like TA and RA are, and make another arena similar to HA that allow heros can be used but give no rank only fame (like current 1on1 Hero Arena but doesn't play like AB mode)

[ijack]

I personally think that HA should be strictly human only like TA and RA are, and make another arena similar to HA that allow heros can be used but give no rank only fame (like current 1on1 Hero Arena but doesn't play like AB mode)

Agreed.

Make another competitive arena that allow hero and rank accomplishment, for example.

Having said that, I think ANET could just upgrade the hero arena as it is as there is no motivation for people to play that at all.

I buy the hero idea in HA somehow, just remove the hencies there, so at least 2 people is needed to get in.

[NeferJackal]

I am tired of seeing Heroway builds in HA, heroes are having a too big impact there. HA should be about facing LIVE players to test yourself against, not pretending to play PvE. If you want to play with Heroes, go to the new hero arena that Anet made for this purpose

[DreamWind]

I'm not sure why people are happy that there will just be a "limit" on heros in HA. Ok lets say there is a limit of 3 heros per team in HA. That still means that 2 humans can grab all heros and henchies and enter. The only difference it would make is that instead of 1 human being able to go in, you would need 2. Not a huge difference to me. You either allow 5 heros/henchies per team or remove them all completely (probably the better choice). There is no middleground in my opinion.

Also in reference to Hero battles, if you are going to remove heros from HA (which should be done), I think the rewards for playing hero battles have to increase dramatically. The only reason people are bringing heroway into HA is because the rewards for accidently winning it are so much greater than HvH, that HvH feels like a waste of time in comparison.

[Ayarie]

Hero's/Hencmen are an important part for filling those final parts of the group that may struggle to fill..

2-3 heros should be the max allowed in a 6v6 group,

No less than 2 otherwise it makes HA less accessible to the casual player/New commers to HA.

And well my opinions on those who say "get rid of heros complealty" can glady be discussed in PM's or a different topic.

Naru

[Raven Flameheart]

Leave them in. They make HA more accessible to those who don't have rank or a network of friends (and the latter is usually attained after you get rank), and want to try it. They are not overpowered, people just have yet to adapt.

[SumXone]

make 2 players minimum, every player can take 2 heroes.
that way, nobody can play alone, and it takes a big emphasise on the advertised "Buddy Play".

Another thing, if you take Heroway away from HA, at least make Herobattles better. Until now, there is just no reward and fun doing it, there are no consecutive wins (why???), no decent rewards, very little players, a small number of maps, and a bad game mechanic.
HA is the only "real" Heroarena there is right now, sorry to say this.

[Parker Bsb]

Hi, all,

Lately, there have been quite a few posts on the subject of PvP--nothing new, of course--but specifically on the subject of Heroes and HA. Now, most of you are level-headed enough to appreciate how much we obviously care about PvP, and I'm sure that a lot of you wisely have confidence that we're quietly weighing the issues that you present. After all, our objectives, as devs, are the same as your objectives, as players: To have the best, most competitive, and most fun experience possible in Heroes' Ascent.

So here's today's bit of news, brief but timely: The designers have read your thoughts on the current Heroes' Ascent, and we are aware that a goodly number of you feel that Heroes are having a tad too much impact upon the gameplay, choices of builds, etc. So, we're going to take a look at setting a limit on the number of Heroes that can be included in a game in Heroes' Ascent. No numbers yet, nor exact timeline for the decision to be finalized, but there you are.

Now, if you want to speculate on that, and share your thoughts, go for it! Keep in mind that all input is welcome, though none can be guaranteed to be the final solution. Also remember that this subject is about Heroes' Ascent and Heroes, not "Change it back to 8v8." That may be a subject for another day, but for right now, Heroes, Heroes' Ascent, etc, eh?

You post, we read, and thanks. :wave:

Let me at least say thanks for dropping us some info Gaile - it's nice to know the Dev team are paying attention rather than ignoring us like some seem to belive.

Personally I agree 2-3 hero/hench is a fair number.

BTW can we keep the flames to a minimum. I'm aware this is a topic of much argument, but I'm sure a thread full of flames will help either side's argument any.

[thedrjay]

As part of an HA guild that has been in existence for a long time, (XoS) the decline of HA with the addition of Heroes has struck us and our network particularly hard. Those friends and guildies no longer wish to participate within the HA environment due to the proliferation of Heroes. I represent my guildmates and we all believe a hard cap of 2 heroes should be implemented into HA for the following reasons.

1. Having to only locate 3 people max should not present a problem to those attempting to PUG in HA. It was thought that reducing team size to 6 would benefit those trying to PUG, but this obviously has not worked.

2. It would limit the amount of non human elements within the HA enviroment. As HA is advertised as a PvP enviroment, there should be more than a 50% component of human elements on the team.

3. Ju, stfu. everyone is attempting to express their opinion and you are trying to crap over what they would like to see. Keep your comments to yourself as you have already expressed your opinion to the subject matter within the thread.

[Bloody Samuel]

2-3 max hench/hero per team. Then we can start playing HA again.

Sam

[Domina Spellbinder]

2 Heroes per team, or remove them all.

Do something about the paragons please.

Change the way you win in the Hall of Heroes.

[slakt]

After all, our objectives, as devs, are the same as your objectives, as players: To have the best, most competitive, and most fun experience possible in Heroes' Ascent.

Come on, this is simply not true. The PvP community wants a competative HA, while Anet wants a popular HA. And since most players in Guild Wars prefer PvE and more casual play, the choice for Anet is to make HA appeal to these players. This was done by reducing the level of competition (6vs6 change) and then by practically turning HA into something very close to PvE by introducing Heroes. I don't know if these changes made HA more popular among PvE:ers, but it sure killed the level of competition and scarred off the PvP:ers.

I would suggest a complete relaunch of Heroes' Ascent; 8vs8, new maps, better rewards for winning, kick the Ghostly Hero out, make it harder to hold (i.e no altar objective on the last map), party formation system. I don't see much point in continuing poking at the hench-infested HA corpse with a stick anyway - a resurrection is needed.

[defrule]

I think some people here would like Neverwinter Nights 2. You get to control your heroes way better and not only that, they talk to you too.

[Psychotic]

3 Hero max IMO. That way each team is half-human half-AI, and you have to choose your AI much more effectively.

[Pariah]

If you remove them, HA will go back to the elitists with rank denying the rest of us access, like it was before heroes. The way it is now gives access to everyone, regardless of rank. I would like to know the breakdown of ranks of those who complain about heros in these groups. I would not be surprised at all if the majority of complainers were ranked players, as those were always the ones shutting others out of HA before heros.

[thedrjay]

Pariah, please keep your generalizations to yourself. They do no good to the topic at hand. The last thing that is needed is to attempt to turn the thread into another "rank is elistist"

[Pariah]

I stated my observations and opinions, which is exactly what this thread is asking for. What I posted is within the topic at hand. Your post regarding it has no bearing to the thread though.

[Ayarie]

The thread asked for opinions on Heros in HA and their inclusion/limited or otherwise.

It actually specified a lack of 8v8 discussion.

Naru

[Pariah]

@thedrjay -
You read too much into the statement made. The statement did not say that all those with rank are elitists, which is what you assumed. The statement I made referred to those who because of their rank have an elitist attitude and refuse to play with those who they feel are beneath them. Is that clearer for you? Can we now get back to the discussion?

I stand by what I posted. There has been an ongoing problem with the lower, or no, rank players who wish to play not being able to get into any groups because they don't have enough rank to suit the players in HA. By allowing heros, Anet has given these players the chance to experience a part of the game that was very difficult for them to have a chance to play before.

[thedrjay]

Best quote in regards to rank:

Whenever someone poses to me the elitist issue, I ask them to solve this dilemma:

Suppose that rank is meaningless. If this is true, then an unranked person should be able to gather unranked people and perform equally as well as the ranked people. As such, there should be no desire to enter ranked groups in the first place. The complaint is negated.

Suppose that rank is meaningful. If this is true, then why should it be wrong or surprising that the ranked exclude the unranked from teams? As such, there should be no opportunity to enter ranked groups in the first place and the complaint is negated.

If you can solve my dilemma, I'll take you seriously with regards to "elitism being a problem". I rather doubt you will though.

[Pariah]

Again, you are not posting to the subject of this thread. The thread is for opinions regarding heros and HA, not about rank vs elitism, or you trying to bait me into a debate that has nothing to do with this thread. How about we get back to the subject. I stated my opinion and observation's on the thread's subject, if you do not like my opinion that's tough for you. State your opinion on the specific subject of this topic, and let's get back to the topic.

[Buddah]

First off, whatever is decided by Anet will be met with outrage. People on both sides will swear that they have the majority on their side and that Anet hasn't listened to them. Many of them are so hardened into their stances that compromise is a foreign concept.

Like many I'd go with 2-3 heroes and/or hench.



Change the way you win in the Hall of Heroes.
A know a few people have asked this in the past. The static end game to the HoH has lead to builds meant only to hold and hold so well that their big accomplishment is just getting there in the first place. After that it's just a 4 minute stall.

It'd be more interesting to have a few different endings in the Hall.



in another thread someone signed for the spearmen against heroway but i have seen and beaten spear running heroway.
I'll vouch for this. I've seen them with 3 and 4 heroes in HA.


yes because heros have really helped new players /sarcasm ,I've used them as 6th in the past so I could get a guildie in there so I could start working with him. So yes they have helped.


I think some people here would like Neverwinter Nights 2. You get to control your heroes way better and not only that, they talk to you too.Why bother. I hit an emotional high in NWN during Eliath Crualnuaber's little cameo. Anything after that fell flat. :grin:

[allience]

i think it would be allright to limit the party to 3 NPC (heroes or henchies, doesn't matter). that would make 3 real players, 3 NPC.

when we were 8, the limit was 4 NPC, 4 real players. i think we should have same proportion now.




*off topic subliminal msg --> bring back 8v8*:wave:

[Degas]

Full of good ideas this week eh? Limit it to 1 per person. But please finally add a countdown timer to the battles, or a time limit for lack of movement/skill usage

[ZiegDivine]

Ju Smurph: ... you sound like an unranked player that has been rejected by a rank 10 group and now are trying to get back at all ranked players. Sorry, if that's not true, but I've read your posts here, and I can tell that you don't HA much, and in fact half the time have no idea what you're talking about. If Heroes helped so much in HA you'd have a much greater knowledge of HA than you do now.

Pariah: I'm rank 5. In many many circles that's a still a scrub when it comes to HA. I'm against heroes. There. Happy? I'm tired of people assuming that only the "leetsauce r12+" players are the only ones against heroes.

TBH heroes ruined HA for me and and many others. Most of the people from my flist told me that their guild no longer wants to do HA, and I rarely get pms from them to HA (tash, stp, scam, to mention some), in addition the alliance that we're in (BC) used to be very very HA active. Every 2 hours or so you'd see an HA group forming. Now, it's rare to see "Who wants to do HA" or "lfg HA" in alliance chat. Do you realize how sad that is? There is no longer any competition in HA, which of course makes HA more accesible to the "average noob."

On topic, honestly limit heroes to 1-2 a team, since they are much more customizable than henchmen, they are also more valueable, thus making your team better. Whereas in 8v8 you'd rarely see henchway, and if you did you'd know that you'd roll them in a matter of minutes, now if I see drunkoro or the other monk hero, I honestly grow exhasperated, their reflexes are better than most of the monks out there (the scariest moment was in gvg when a spike on drunkoro was called, and he pre-guardianed himself during the countdown for the said spike).

[mattybadger]

(the scariest moment was in gvg when a spike on drunkoro was called, and he pre-guardianed himself during the countdown for the said spike).

I know the hero's are quick but I doubt they can hack into your TS or vent channel :tongue:
. Probs someone was attacknig him too early during the coutdown.

[ZiegDivine]

I know the hero's are quick but I doubt they can hack into your TS or vent channel :tongue:
. Probs someone was attacknig him too early during the coutdown.

Nope, ctrl+shift+space, our guild is better than to attack early, we only had 2 warriors on the spike, a dom mesmer and an air ele. It was ... creepy at best, since it was more than once.

[Wuzzman]

and ha will become a ghost town at about the same time Gaile decides to limit heroes in hero ascent. O well fun while it lasted, waiting 2 minutes between maps will become norm...full skip to HoH ftw. inviting only r3+'s again...

[lifeinthefridge]

Leave them in. They make HA more accessible to those who don't have rank or a network of friends (and the latter is usually attained after you get rank), and want to try it. They are not overpowered, people just have yet to adapt.

no there stupid....they dont help new players at all iway taught new players more then heroway.......seriously can you really say that new players are just thriving with heroway in 6v6 if so I think you really need to look how dead HA is and how many new players are actually using this to thier advantage... elitism becomes part of everygame people just have to accpet it and stop whining about o well too bad....for you... I started tombing with no friends and it has taken me 12 or more months to get were i am so to bad

[Psykewne]

such hostility... everyone seems to take this way too personally...

I'd say a hard limit on 3 or 4 npcs maximum would be fine therefore requiring 2-3 real players minimum...

The advantage of heroes is too great to remove them, i can take a couple new friends and teach them something basic, they can learn the early maps and mess around with whatever builds they like.

Everyone always says npcs are easy to beat so there is nothing about them being overpowered, but i agree facing 1 real person every match is a litle boring and unchallenging with 6 good people.

I think anyone saying to remove them completely has forgotten how hard it is/was to grow when teams kick you for any slight mistake, people rage quite constantly, groups take hours to form... there arep lenty of good times and once you have friends it gets easier but the advantage of heroes allowing you to HA whenever you like is very sweet too.

So yeah make it 3 or 4 and it's gonna be fine... perhaps remove normal hench from all pvp and then the 3 hero cap for characters will limit teams perfectly in theory?

[BrotherKurupt]

perhaps remove normal hench from all pvp and then the 3 hero cap for characters will limit teams perfectly in theory?

psykewne if you attempt to take mage henchman from me...i will limit you perfectly, and not in theory either :D



I believe each team should be allowed to bring a maximum of 1 hero into HA. I used to be on the side of "bring 8 v 8 back," but apparently this has been permanently shot down.

[Pariah]

There is no longer any competition in HA, which of course makes HA more accesible to the "average noob."
This is really at the heart of the problem. Making it more accessible to the average player, but also keeping it competitive. What if there were 2 arenas, one would allow hench teams in order for players to experiment with builds and to gain experience, sort of a training and practice arena? The other thought I had came to me as I was thinking about the event they had in Taiwan (I think it was Taiwan), where they were encouraging more experienced players to teach others. What if there was some sort of title track involving higher ranked players spending time in HA playing with lower, or no, rank players (lower by atleast 2-3 ranks or more)? This could be a way to encourage the the better players to teach, which in turn would not only make it more accessible to less experienced players, but would also help to build more, and better competition for all. Also in combination with this I would limit, but not eliminate, henchies. I'm just trying to come up with ideas, too much of this subject tends to be about debate without solutions.

[Ju Smurph]

Ju Smurph: ... you sound like an unranked player that has been rejected by a rank 10 group and now are trying to get back at all ranked players. Sorry, if that's not true, but I've read your posts here, and I can tell that you don't HA much, and in fact half the time have no idea what you're talking about. If Heroes helped so much in HA you'd have a much greater knowledge of HA than you do now.

I'm unranked because i dislike the brown nosing involved i getting into a pug that is even going anywhere. In general people think that rank makes them something special...

I have run with Rank 10's through a friend of a friend about a dozen times and its ok. I follow the general meta game, i know the maps, i just hate in general dealing with the bad people. If i felt like dealing with a bunch of childish people while they 'rage' i would go to work and help our claims department on the weekend.

A huge generalisation ill admit, which is different to my expirence in this forum which is that, most people here are friendly and all that good stuff... its just the sifting through the majority of power trippers to get to the good people is (in my opinion) a waste of my time. I play the game for fun not rank.

The only valid response i have heard is that this has made it fun for the Senior HA'ers. Thats a valid point... though whos fun is more important at what cost? There are so many angles to this and thats why there is a big debate.

I'm just standing up for people that have an avenue into something they never had before... whether they turn into HA champions or not i don't particularly care. Just that people that couldn't get in before actually now get a chance. I'm happy for them.

Somewhere in between is the balance... but surely seniors can let up a few months to let some others have a go for just a short while. Even if they aren't doing it concievably right.

[Motto]

Before Hero's came to Hero's Ascent, before Hero's Ascent was Hero's Ascent, I was a rankless noob. I had to scrounge for fame with PuGs, until I joined a nice guild. I knew some people in RL that also played Guild Wars and decided to join. Through them I gained knowledge, throught knowledge I gained experience, through experience I gained understanding. It took me six months to earn rank 3 pugging with people who were kind enough to take me along and playing with guildies. The reason I kept going back to Hero's Ascent was because it was fun and unpredictable. I still play with some of the people that were in my original guild, and lately we have avoided Hero's Ascent like the plague. The reason is simple, far to many teams are Hero's.
I appreciate the fact the Hero's have made getting a group in Hero's Ascent very easy for those who can't find an extra player. However when you encounter several groups that are made up primarily of Hero's, you begin to wonder if they are being abused. Hero's Ascent is no longer fun because it feels more like PvE at this point. I play PvE with my PvE characters regularly, but when I want to play PvP I want to face other players, not a team of Hero's.

That being said I would like to limit groups to a 50/50 split between AI controlled and Human controlled characters, that includes henchmen. If you are forming a group in Hero's Ascent you must take at least three people, the remainder of the group may be filled up with Hero's or hench or a mixture, depending on your preference. Just like starting a GvG match, at least half of the party must be made up of guild members.

PS: For those who might be wondering what rank I am, at the moment I am Rank 6. I do not bother with it though because I only play with guildies or friends, not because I am elitist but because it is much more fun.

Edited for grammar.

[JodoKast]

EDIT, restructuring the whole post.

To me, people are playing with heroes in HA for two reasons:

- they want to pvp solo because they like the total control and sense of achievement behind it
- they don't have easy means, time or will to find groups to join

1) solo pvp

There is a clear case for solo pvp in this game, as the sheer about of Heroway in HA tend to prove and given the many threads about it, the many demands in game, the many scrimmage in that format,...

Nightfall introduced an very interesting way to achieve that through the heroes mechanism (which is much more tactical than plain 1v1). The only problem is that the intended arena for playing it is not attractive enough.

I personnaly tried to play heroes battle and switched rather quickly to heroway in HA because HA is simply better on most fields:

- far less faction per game in HB, longer games as well (only 4 opponents giving 20 faction point instead of 40, for games that last much longer that a typicall HA match...Not to mention other player leaving when loosing, further reducing the reward you get)
- no "fame" system with titles or emotes in HB(even RA/TA have their title)
- no item reward in HB
- HB is far less prestigious than HA (no announcement of victories, no tilting of favor, not shown on observer mode,...)
- HB features a very limited amount of maps with always the same objective (again, even RA/TA have more diverse objectives or flavor)
- non continuous play in HB, no tournament style continuous play
- only 1v1 in HB, no 1v1v1 or more

Now to be fair, the control point mechanism idea is very nice and very fun but that alone doesn't elude the many shortcomings of the Heroes battle arena.

As long as this situation last, people will tend to go to HA instead of HB as it is simply superior gaming experience for them.

Limiting the amount of heroes in HA doesn't address this problem, it simply puts a category of players out of the game or facing as their only option, a far less interesting alternative arena.

For me, the clear way to address that problem is to make Heroes Battle more attractive, in an attempt to make people migrate to the arena they should be playing in.

To be bold, i would move things like favor winning and celestial sigils out of HA altogether and put them as the reward in Heroes Battles. Most pvp players engaging in high end HA do not play for pve rewards, especially now that pvp character creation is so much more powerful than before.

2) Lack of time/Casual play

The second category of people playing heroway is the category of people not willing or not having the time to compose a group of players for HA.

Again, limiting the amount of heroes in HA does put those players out of play altogether, again facing less interesting alternatives.

This should instead be adressed with things like enhancing the group forming mechanisms (sharing templates would already go a long way)



If you don't fix the root cause of a problem, you're only adding additional level of patches over something that will eventually become even a bigger problem.

I believe that adressing group forming and interest of Heroes Battle would go a very long way toward making HA less hero populated

I'd like to add that i am very aware that the original question was simply asking if a limit to heroes would be a good idea. I however believe that tactical actions such as that one doesn't really solve the problem. In this case, it even alienates a part of the community that happen to like heroway-ing, without even solving the other problems of the other people.

I understand time and ressource constraints, working myself in corporate IT environment, but i also recognize that without the eyes looking for the root cause of the complaints, all you are doing is delaying the occurence of the next "crisis".

For a practical example, when you're looking into improving the performance of a software application, you can choose to arbitrarly increase the hardware ressources allocated to the application (more CPU, RAM, bandwidth,...) , but that only delays the next occurence of performance problems. The only real way to address the performance issues is to look at the code of the application and understand how it can be architectured to provide better performance.

[Ayarie]

Originally Posted by Jodo Kast
I'd like to add that i am very aware that the original question was simply asking if a limit to heroes would be a good idea. I however believe that tactical actions such as that one doesn't really solve the problem. In this case, it even alienates a part of the community that happen to like heroway-ing, without even solving the other problems of the other people


Very well said!!!!


As i came to realize reading another thread - with Heros in HA that part of the game becomes almost 100% more accesable to PvPers and casual players who WANT to play in the hall of heros (remembering that HA links to foW and PvE players were PvE players have wished for ages of a way to be able to win the access themselves) can actually do so!!!! Proving that their Skill (in the form of managing multipl characters) can in deed out do their time (fame farming to find a group) spent!


The problem is the few gimmick builds like other builds take advantage of certain maps and cause an uproar because some do not see them as "right" or that a few griefers will cause problems and draw light to whats not a bad but a brilliant idea.

In Limiting the number of Heros, it limts what was one of the BEST things about it.

I know as a PvE Player who wants to HA sometime without joining a HA specific guild in order to drop by and just enjoy playing!

And in most cases the person micro controlling the Heros will be feeling just as challened managing them as a full player group - it still uses their skill.

As you stand and face a player and heros - theres still a PLAYER there. Its not like the Zaishen wipe out on the first room.

Naru

[NTsan]

To be bold, i would move things like favor winning and celestial sigils out of HA altogether and put them as the reward in Heroes Battles. Most pvp players engaging in high end HA do not play for pve rewards, especially now that pvp character creation is so much more powerful than before.


So all the past and future GW chaptor are determined by chapter 3's Hero Arena? Don't you think that is just the same as PVE been determined by PVP result in another way?

Isn't that contradict to what you said earlier?

[click]

I'd vote for max number of Heroes/Henches to be 3 per team. If that's not possible, then just require at least 2 human players. That would barely be a fix, but it'd be better than the situation now... a little.

[JodoKast]

So all the past and future GW chaptor are determined by chapter 3's Hero Arena? Don't you think that is just the same as PVE been determined by PVP result in another way?

Isn't that contradict to what you said earlier?


I must admit i haven't though of Hero arena being nightfall only so probably other reward should be found.

However, it doesn't contradict anything i have been saying though.

[Wuzzman]

American and International district will have 1 active district a piece. It will be like the first week of 6v6 ha but divide that number by half. When 6v6 rolled out HA had only 3 active districts. For americans that meants American district 1 and International district 1 and 2. Now imagine that cut in half when Anet nerfs heroes.

[supaet]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

[ImSoToast]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

I would've worded it a bit differently lol but not bad at all. Besides the tone nice approach and I agree with what you're saying basically. It is very true in many ways and the sad fact is what happens when these people finally stop h&h?

The past two changes to Ha did absolutely nothing to the real problems of Ha. What sux is that if ever the solution is implemented these two changes will be attributed with said solution. One of the real problems of Ha was population and now its worse than ever.

[allience]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

i couldn't of said this better myself. heroway does nothing to improve a person's skill. it does NOT add new good ppl to ur friends list. it doesn't help u understand the mechanics of team play. all it does is turn u into a fame farming robot. i wouldn't be surprised if the chinese bots have upgraded to "fame farm".

i remeber when i was r4-5, i started to make a friends list with ppl i enjoyed playing with, and now we're all on our way to r12. i learned to play better and to play as a team. what does a person running heroway do? add Master Of Whispers as their buddy.. add Thalkora... no comment.

many ppl left heroes ascent since it was changed to 6v6. it just took down our diversity. after a certain period of time ppl get bored of running FOTMs and feel like being creative. and there just isn't much u can do in a party of 6 as opposed to 8. the heroes combined with 6v6 killed HA. these days the districts are empty. theres just a few r0-r6 pugs in id 1 and most are running heroway. i'm quite certain that most of the HA regulars plan to quit upon reaching r12 and most are close to it. very few ppl i've asked plan to keep playing because it just doesn't feel like high-end pvp anymore.

HA like GvG should be 8v8 and should be Player vs Player to keep with the standards of high-end pvp tournament.

[defrule]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

That is an amazing post. Couldn't have said it better.

[Lord Natural]

To the above posts:

You act as though Hero farming is any different than other fotm farming. Fair enough, new players running straight to heroway don't get the best HA experience there is to be had. But that doesn't mean their fame is any more invalid than spirit spammers, iwayers, or any of the dozens of different spikes that have come and gone. Comments such as "I know an r9 is a better player than I am" is complete crap. You have no idea how that player earned his fame, or how good he is, unless you've played with him previously. There have been many players who have rolled straight to r9 with iway, then strutted into HA with their monk lfg.

I'm not saying rank doesn't mean anything overall... because that isn't true either. Alls I'm saying is, a new player to HA isn't doing himself a disservice by trying heroway any more than players who have started with iway in months past. In fact, since most heroways at least have a balanced format, they are learning more by their losses than a team of warriors sending their pet in to die. I've always stood by the fact that you learn more by your losses than your wins. If a player rolls in with his heroway and finds that his echo+glyph of sacrifice meteor shower isn't doing the job and his monks get rolled in 30 seconds, he'll at least start to think, "How can I better protect my monks?", which gets the ball rolling. That's the type of thinking that you want to promote in players who might be new to HA. Iwayers learned little more than the maps.

[Echo Darkwynd]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:
...
Please don't play for fame, play for fun.
...
So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

You are incorrect in assuming that everyone running Heroway is a "newbie" doing it just "for fame." Furthermore, I disagree with your opinion that heroway is ruining PvP.

It took me quite some time to get to R3 but I'm quite proud of how I got there. I did it before the 6v6 change, and 90% of my fame was earned in in balanced PuGs that I formed myself. Forming a 8-man PuG in HA was hard, and I'd have to set aside at least 3 hours if I expected to get anywhere in HA. Each time I'd have to deal with rage-quitters, people lying about their skill bars, not following targets, not understanding map mechanics, and sometimes just being flat-out rude.

I've been thoroughly enjoying the addition of Heroes to HA for the following reasons:

I can run any team build I want, regardless of how obscure the skills may be. For example, I'd been wanting to run a Greater Conflag build since Prophesies but could never find a group of human players willing to run it -- Heroes made it possible.
I tend to play on off-hours where its difficult to find a full group of human players.
I know exactly how heroes are going to behave during battle, as opposed to PuG players who can be unpredictable.
If I know I only have a short amount of time to play, Heroes are readily accessible whereas human players are not.
I enjoy the challenge of doing everything myself. I have fun running Heroway.

[JodoKast]

To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.


I'm going to break the trend of praise and qualify this post as grossly insulting, poorly written, definitely condescending and off the point.

Who are to you decide what the people should play for ? Not everybody's aim is to climb in the rank and be the best at HoH and as such, not everybody's aim is to gain fame so they can play with higher ranked people.

Maybe all i want is faction points that i can use to unlock stuffs, maybe i prefer the map objectives in HoH or prefer the challenge of facing human teams with me heroes, maybe i have 30 min before i have to go and therefore want a quick few games, what do you know about my motivation at all ??

I coudln't care less about playing with higher ranked people (and especially not with those that share the attitude you are showing here), or ANY pug in general. All i care about is having fun AT MY LEVEL, with friends when they are online or without friends if they are not.

I don't find fun in grouping with pugs of any level , most of my experiences there have been awful at best. I always take the chance to play with alliance mates when possible but i greatly appreciate the option of being able to play alone as well...

Stop believing that your opinion is at the center of the universe, that your level of play is a role model and that all those you insult by calling "noobs" here are thriving to play with you the God of pvp and are farming fame in hope this will make it possible. I personnaly coudn't care less about getting a rank that i could invoke in an attempt to play with "high rank" teams.

I apologize for this outburst.

[ddpddpddp]

now bare with me here, as i have a funny feeling im setting myself up for alot of flaming, but here it goes....

I dont play pvp at all, well, maybe a couple of gvg matches from time to time, and i usually get spanked, my guild has made it to hoh ONCE, we are basically a pve-only guild.

I recently decided i want to focus now on pvp, ive played all 3 chapters, unlocked skills for damn near everything, and im not alone, a few others in my guild have the same idea.. we know all about rank discrimination, considering most of us are rank 0 , and i wouldnt go with a higher ranked team even if they did invite me, i understand perfectly that i AM a liability in those groups, so i dont even bother asking for an invite. I WILL however, get guildies together, friends from other guilds, other low ranked players, whoever i can, to try and learn about how pvp works, so we all get better, and we all learn how to play with each other, we all gain experience, and maybe have some fun while we are at it :).

Never once have i even considered taking a hench/hero for pvp, i understand that heroes are customizable, and u can control them to a certain extent and i loved having them around for the nightfall campaign, not that i had any choice. Finding a full human group in nightfall was the worst experience out of any game i have ever played, and now, going into pvp, i get to look foward to fighting TEAMS of them?? I remember when winning HoH actually was an accomplishment, now, its just another mission i can hench.

I already stated i know how hard it is to find a group for this, so i understand why people like having the heroes in pvp, they can easily fill a space if they are missing somebody, try a new build, ect..but you arent LEARNING about teamplay the way u could if you had a full human team, and no matter how high in rank u go, u will still be missing out on the most impotant factor of pvp in this game..COOPERATION. to me , henching pvp is like buying gold, u might get what u want, but its not as satisfying.

That said, i can see how having the option of 1, maybe 2 henchies/heroes at your disposal could encourage people to still HA if they cant find a full group. that leaves 4 slots for REAL people and it makes heroes the execption, not the rule. make hero battles more exciting for the people that want to do them, add unique drops customized for them, or new armor skins or there own individual fame bar.

just my two cents, and a noobs two cents at that ;)

[B Ephekt]

I'm going to break the trend of praise and qualify this post as grossly insulting, poorly written, definitely condescending and off the point.

Who are to you decide what the people should play for ? Not everybody's aim is to climb in the rank and be the best at HoH and as such, not everybody's aim is to gain fame so they can play with higher ranked people.

Maybe all i want is faction points that i can use to unlock stuffs, maybe i prefer the map objectives in HoH or prefer the challenge of facing human teams with me heroes, maybe i have 30 min before i have to go and therefore want a quick few games, what do you know about my motivation at all ??

I coudln't care less about playing with higher ranked people (and especially not with those that share the attitude you are showing here), or ANY pug in general. All i care about is having fun AT MY LEVEL, with friends when they are online or without friends if they are not.

I don't find fun in grouping with pugs of any level , most of my experiences there have been awful at best. I always take the chance to play with alliance mates when possible but i greatly appreciate the option of being able to play alone as well...

Stop believing that your opinion is at the center of the universe, that your level of play is a role model and that all those you insult by calling "noobs" here are thriving to play with you the God of pvp and are farming fame in hope this will make it possible. I personnaly coudn't care less about getting a rank that i could invoke in an attempt to play with "high rank" teams.

I apologize for this outburst.
Guild Wars is not an RTS game; Guild Wars pvp is neither balanced around nor meant to be 1 person controlling a bunch of NPCs. There are a lot of things I would _like_ to be able to do in this game, but that doesn't make it good for the game in general. I'm sensible enough to realize this though.

Random Arenas are there for players looking to play quick matches with no pressure, downsides or wait times.

Heroes Ascent isn't the only arena in which you can gain faction in the game.


Every sinlge one of your points makes you sound like you should play RA or Hero Battles more.

[supaet]

To the above posts:

You act as though Hero farming is any different than other fotm farming. Fair enough, new players running straight to heroway don't get the best HA experience there is to be had. But that doesn't mean their fame is any more invalid than spirit spammers, iwayers, or any of the dozens of different spikes that have come and gone. Comments such as "I know an r9 is a better player than I am" is complete crap. You have no idea how that player earned his fame, or how good he is, unless you've played with him previously. There have been many players who have rolled straight to r9 with iway, then strutted into HA with their monk lfg.

I'm not saying rank doesn't mean anything overall... because that isn't true either. Alls I'm saying is, a new player to HA isn't doing himself a disservice by trying heroway any more than players who have started with iway in months past. In fact, since most heroways at least have a balanced format, they are learning more by their losses than a team of warriors sending their pet in to die. I've always stood by the fact that you learn more by your losses than your wins. If a player rolls in with his heroway and finds that his echo+glyph of sacrifice meteor shower isn't doing the job and his monks get rolled in 30 seconds, he'll at least start to think, "How can I better protect my monks?", which gets the ball rolling. That's the type of thinking that you want to promote in players who might be new to HA. Iwayers learned little more than the maps.


Heroway fame farming is completely different from other fotm farming. Let me tell you why. With all the fotm, there are communication, there are team dynamics, there are COOPERATION. Your success is not solely depend on the build that you run, or your own personal performance, it has alot to do with how well the team play together. Running fotm or not, that is the guild wars PVP experience that sets it apart from other games.

With heroway, even if you command all 3 heroes, disable all their ai skills, and use all of them manually, you still have henches that DO THE WORK for you. Most of the time, dunkoro is better than a typical r3 monk with the new ai. So all you did is design the build and LET THE HERO RUN IT FOR YOU. That may or may not be an advantage. But it creates an imbalance in teams. Why should a team of 6 humans fight a team of 1 human and five ai's? If we really want to farm fame, we won't complain because it's easy to roll a one man team. But it's not fun, and it totally destroy the human vs human, team vs team aspect of the comeptitive gameplay. To me, that is game breaking.

If you run a one man team, you have a both advantages (group members won't fight, they all listen) and disavantages (heroes are ai). Why should those exist? both team should be created equal. Both should be consist of all players. Once again, soloing in HA is rediculous.

It doesn't matter how an r9 get his fame, unless he ebay of course, he is better than me in hoh! that is a FACT, look, if someone was fame farming way back during spirit spamming era, he'll be some kinda veteran now already? That is just common sense. I know it is hard to admit that you're inferior in anyway, but hey, how can you get better with no self-awareness.

Iwayers learn alot more than maps, they know how to gank holding teams, they know how to call adren spike. They know how to kite, they know how to USE MINIMAP.

speaking of mini-map, this is a great example, if you heroway your way to rank whatever then join a group later, you'll die fast and get kicked immediately? why? cause you over-extended, well, you didn't have that problem in heroway didn't you? as for improving heroway builds, come on, that's what hero's battle are for. Just imagine all the hardcore hohers quit, then all you have is heroway. Why? because those who herowayed in ha have NO IDEA how to make, manage, maintain, and have fun in a GROUP


You are incorrect in assuming that everyone running Heroway is a "newbie" doing it just "for fame." Furthermore, I disagree with your opinion that heroway is ruining PvP.

It took me quite some time to get to R3 but I'm quite proud of how I got there. I did it before the 6v6 change, and 90% of my fame was earned in in balanced PuGs that I formed myself. Forming a 8-man PuG in HA was hard, and I'd have to set aside at least 3 hours if I expected to get anywhere in HA. Each time I'd have to deal with rage-quitters, people lying about their skill bars, not following targets, not understanding map mechanics, and sometimes just being flat-out rude.

I've been thoroughly enjoying the addition of Heroes to HA for the following reasons:

I can run any team build I want, regardless of how obscure the skills may be. For example, I'd been wanting to run a Greater Conflag build since Prophesies but could never find a group of human players willing to run it -- Heroes made it possible.
I tend to play on off-hours where its difficult to find a full group of human players.
I know exactly how heroes are going to behave during battle, as opposed to PuG players who can be unpredictable.
If I know I only have a short amount of time to play, Heroes are readily accessible whereas human players are not.
I enjoy the challenge of doing everything myself. I have fun running Heroway.



If you read my title again, i'm not talking to all the people who uses heroway, I am talking to new player that just play hoh because heroway can get them their bambi. As for all your reasons, what makes you play hoh with heroes rather than playing in hero's battle where you belong?

[Echo Darkwynd]

If you read my title again, i'm not talking to all the people who uses heroway, I am talking to new player that just play hoh because heroway can get them their bambi.

Heroway is heroway, regardless of whether the person running it is R0 or R12.


As for all your reasons, what makes you play hoh with heroes rather than playing in hero's battle where you belong?

First off, you are in no position to make assumptions about "where I belong". I will play wherever I feel like it.

The Hero Battle Arena has several problems that keep me from playing there:

Lack of "consecutive wins" make it difficult to judge the effectiveness of a build.
There is no title or reward for doing well. (except for Faction which could be more rapidly accumulated elsewhere)
The shrine capping mechanic tends to favor self-sufficiency over team synergy.
The lack of death penalty.
The short respawn timer.
Builds that work well in Hero Battles do not transfer well into other arenas.
Builds that work well in other arenas do not transfer well into Hero Battles.


Playing Hero Battles is a waste of time in its current state.

[Motto]

It doesn't matter how an r9 get his fame, unless he ebay of course, he is better than me in hoh! that is a FACT, look, if someone was fame farming way back during spirit spamming era, he'll be some kinda veteran now already? That is just common sense. I know it is hard to admit that you're inferior in anyway, but hey, how can you get better with no self-awareness.
While it may be true for you that someone higher rank is better than you in Hero's Ascent, it is not true for everyone. My guildies and I have regularly punished and defeated rank 9 groups, and the average rank we hold is 6.5, no one is over rank 8.
While I agree with you that the way Hero's are used in HA should be changed, the way you are trying to convince people is wrong. All you did was convince some people that they were right in their opinion; everyone in Hero's Ascent discriminate by the rank that they hold. I have had some extremely nice people help me get my rank 3, you just need to go out and find them, that means not using hero's.

[EcHoMaN]

@JodoKast
These are the exact reasons why Anet decided to first off change HA to 6vs6 and then allowed 5 hero's or henchies. All the points you have made are the exact reasons as to why HA is a joke currently.They listened to the casual players. I really can't see the reasoning, like people in your ball park+Anet decided to even change HA in the first place. As someone else pointed out there is RA for quick matches, and there are Hero battle isles for people who want to play with hero's. Again dumb founded here. So after all this, the only reason I see people who want to play HA is solely for fame. Since nightfall was released I've only gone to HA twice and neither times it was fun, went in yesterday abd there were only 3 international districts during prime time. The signs are there, currently HA isn't working any better than it did before, rather much worse.

[allience]

Heroway is heroway, regardless of whether the person running it is R0 or R12.



First off, you are in no position to make assumptions about "where I belong". I will play wherever I feel like it.

The Hero Battle Arena has several problems that keep me from playing there:

Lack of "consecutive wins" make it difficult to judge the effectiveness of a build.
There is no title or reward for doing well. (except for Faction which could be more rapidly accumulated elsewhere)
The shrine capping mechanic tends to favor self-sufficiency over team synergy.
The lack of death penalty.
The short respawn timer.
Builds that work well in Hero Battles do not transfer well into other arenas.
Builds that work well in other arenas do not transfer well into Hero Battles.


Playing Hero Battles is a waste of time in its current state.

well then go write a letter of complaint about Hero Battles and stop annoying HA players that enjoy human cooperation and Player vs Player not Ai. you just sound like a whiny kid that's frustrated because he doesn't gain 'fame' and 'shiny emotes' in another arena.

if u really enjoy playing playing with 1 person and its heroes, just make a thread about the problems with Hero Battles but stop thinking of Heroes Ascent as a Hero Battles arena with fame reward because it's NOT. Heroes Ascent is SUPPOSED to be a high-end pvp arena where Human "heroes" fight, not Ai.

[Emosh]

Keep it as it is right now. More prople started playing after the change since you don't need to go through the 1hr foreplay to setup a human only team. I'd like it to stay. I can solo HA, if I want to, or I can still make a human team and wipe all those one man teams.

Please don't change it.

[EcHoMaN]

Keep it as it is right now. More prople started playing after the change since you don't need to go through the 1hr foreplay to setup a human only team. I'd like it to stay. I can solo HA, if I want to, or I can still make a human team and wipe all those one man teams.

Please don't change it.
It seemed for the first 2-3 weeks after the 6vs6 change there were more people playing, but that isn't "THE BIG PROBLEM". heroway is effectively killing HA, and ANet knows it. Reguardless of the heroway I'm sure many people who wanted the 6vs6 probably don't want it now. Today holding teams are rare, because of the 6vs6.Counters are rare. Basically since nightfall it seems builds have been given a big boost to offense, pack in the most degen+pressure you can, and its gg,even in HA or GVG. There are much more things to be said about how the whole structure and machanics of HA changed since the 6vs6, but i refuse to dip into it now, and here. Obviously anyone who likes heroes in HA, has no clue what HA used to be about or couldn't come to grasps with it.

[allience]

Keep it as it is right now. More prople started playing after the change since you don't need to go through the 1hr foreplay to setup a human only team. I'd like it to stay. I can solo HA, if I want to, or I can still make a human team and wipe all those one man teams.

Please don't change it.

more people? nice joke....
go take a look today at HA. it's saturday night and there are 3 international districts. the third is half empty. on a regular saturday night before the 6v6 **** and before the heroway, there were 5 international dists and id1 was full when trying to get there.

everything proves that heroes were a bad idea and so was 6v6. 6v6 made HA population to go down and heroes killed it.

[JodoKast]

@JodoKast
These are the exact reasons why Anet decided to first off change HA to 6vs6 and then allowed 5 hero's or henchies. All the points you have made are the exact reasons as to why HA is a joke currently.They listened to the casual players. I really can't see the reasoning, like people in your ball park+Anet decided to even change HA in the first place. As someone else pointed out there is RA for quick matches, and there are Hero battle isles for people who want to play with hero's. Again dumb founded here. So after all this, the only reason I see people who want to play HA is solely for fame. Since nightfall was released I've only gone to HA twice and neither times it was fun, went in yesterday abd there were only 3 international districts during prime time. The signs are there, currently HA isn't working any better than it did before, rather much worse.


These are indeed the reasons why it was changed, and it was driven by a huge demand considering the amount of Heroes you see in HA at the moment.

You are right on one thing as well, hero people should play in Heroes Battle but they don't. They don't play there partly because there is no reward playing there currently but also for many other reasons that you can read in my previous post if you want.

Personnaly, I am playing HA with alliance mates or with heroes for pure fun and i have no fame objective whatsoever.

I play HA and not RA/HB because HA is more interesting game wise than the alternatives you mention.

I'm not denying that indeed a lot of people are farming purely for fame, my outburst was more at the "don't farm fame noob. You're bad and that is why we won't take you anyway so learn to play" message which i find absolutely wrong and totally off the current debate.

I'm not commenting further.

[Echo Darkwynd]

well then go write a letter of complaint about Hero Battles and stop annoying HA players that enjoy human cooperation and Player vs Player not Ai. you just sound like a whiny kid that's frustrated because he doesn't gain 'fame' and 'shiny emotes' in another arena.

if u really enjoy playing playing with 1 person and its heroes, just make a thread about the problems with Hero Battles but stop thinking of Heroes Ascent as a Hero Battles arena with fame reward because it's NOT. Heroes Ascent is SUPPOSED to be a high-end pvp arena where Human "heroes" fight, not Ai.

I don't see how insulting me is supposed to lend credibility to your argument.

The reason I enjoy playing GW is the "deck building" aspect of the game. The addition of Heroes allows me to test these "decks" before I go through all the effort of forming a player group. My point about Hero Battles was that it is not an effective testing ground for 6v6 or 8v8.

[grimwold]

HA changing to 6v6... Heroes allowed... Huge drop in player base...

2+2 = ?

There may be more teams in action, but 70% or more are heroway, how exactly can you suggest that this is an improvement, and that changing it back would be a bad thing ?

Dont hit me with the "rank problem" either, what does a person running heroway actually care what rank he is when he isnt playing with real people anyway ?

[Wuzzman]

HA changing to 6v6... Heroes allowed... Huge drop in player base...

2+2 = ?

There may be more teams in action, but 70% or more are heroway, how exactly can you suggest that this is an improvement, and that changing it back would be a bad thing ?

Dont hit me with the "rank problem" either, what does a person running heroway actually care what rank he is when he isnt playing with real people anyway ?

umm...the huge drop in player base was actually due to 6v6. Not the heroes. Actually the heroes added an extra district. Now instead of going straight to American district 1 I would be at american district 2 at good hours(considering time zones and such). When 6v6 rolled out there was only 1 american district left just 1. kids like above been under a heavy rock for a good while...

[B Ephekt]

More prople started playing after the change since you don't need to go through the 1hr foreplay to setup a human only team.
I can't see how anyone who ever stepped foot in HA before the change could actually think this. There are less people in the districts now, and ID1 and 2 are never full anymore. Just a month or two ago you would have trouble getting into ID1 or 2, now ID1 loads up automatically when choosing internetional districts.

There are less people playing now, due to many people quitting because of the 6v6 and heroway garbage.

[Ace Bear]

I haven't read anything but the first page so:

Make the number of Heroes to 3 max per team. If you can't field at least half the team then don't play HA. Although the more I think about it 2 should be enough to fill the holes in that you don't have.

[Wuzzman]

I can't see how anyone who ever stepped foot in HA before the change could actually think this. There are less people in the districts now, and ID1 and 2 are never full anymore. Just a month or two ago you would have trouble getting into ID1 or 2, now ID1 loads up automatically when choosing internetional districts.

There are less people playing now, due to many people quitting because of the 6v6 and heroway garbage.

2 months ago ha was 8v8 and international district was popular...american district was just starting to have a pulse...6v6 is what cut the amount of ha'ers in half. It was nightfall that at least restored about 1/4 of the old level of people back.

[Runekeeper]

Dont hit me with the "rank problem" either, what does a person running heroway actually care what rank he is when he isnt playing with real people anyway ?

Very good point....the current system bypasses the whole "rank PROBLEM". which is good. Having said that I'm all for having an arena w/ 8v8 and a max of 3 heroes/npcs or none at all....just not necessarily THIS one. Rank WAS a problem. They fixed the PROBLEM. Now those that want to affect their PVE portion of the game of the favor system CAN. Now they've got another problem in that it’s no longer appealing to some of those that want their PVP portion of the favor system w/o having to fight mainly AI instead of real players. The other major problem is that THIS arena ALONE effects more than JUST the PvP aspect of the game. Had this been the Random arena or any of the other arenas it wouldn't be as big a deal. They don't affect the PvE side of things really. HA DOES. So simply catering to one side or another simply isn't possible w/o at least half the community going up in arms over it. Previously it catered to the PVP crowd and people complained, due to its effects on PVE. Now it’s catering to the PVE crowd and people are complaining due to its effect on PVP. If you nix the heroes all together you again cater to the PVP aspect and lose a goodly portion of the PVE aspect again. As HA effects both it needs to be balance between the two.

I say just remove the henchies and leave the 3 max hero limit. Simple yet effective. you'll still get at least 2 humans and all of the "AI" is being controlled by HUMANS. Or, make is so that if you have Heroes in your party then you can't have Henchies as well in the party*shrugs* that'd make it work for those that don't have nightfalls and those that do and still have to have a few HUMANS in the party w/o Killing it for those that don't want to deal with the whole "Rank Problem" as they could still try to hench it w/ a few PEOPLE, hopefully friends. Getting 1 or 2 people is easier than getting a full 5 (6v6) or 7(8v8) people to try and make an attempt at it.

Would it fix it 100%? No. you'd still have the people that want/need to solo due to lack of time to get a group, due to the Rank PROBLEM again, but you'd have LESS of the Rank PROBLEM [I]hopefully. And you'd still have some of the PVP people who STILL won't be happy. Can't make everyone happy, and you won't with this arena, but at least ANET is TRYING.

On a side note: what does a person running heroway actually care what rank he is when he isn’t playing with real people anyway? titles for their chars, and emotes and, possibly, preparing for when ANET does change the system so that they can actually keep playing HA when their Rank is the only thing that can get them into groups, aka the "Rank Problem". Oh and for fun. This is JUST a GAME after all, albeit a very GOOD game.:cool::soapbox:

[Amor Morte]

Take them out of HA completely.

I have stated my reasons why in another thread.

I have quit GW and I wont be playing GW, until they are removed. They have completely ruined the metagame. And it's mostly down to the griefers with their monk based builds.

And yes, griefing can happen with teams made up of 6 people.. But it is a lot harder to find 6 people willing to waste hours with some lame build to get 1 fame than it is to get some AI to do it.

[Wuzzman]

Take them out of HA completely.

I have stated my reasons why in another thread.

I have quit GW and I wont be playing GW, until they are removed. They have completely ruined the metagame. And it's mostly down to the griefers with their monk based builds.

And yes, griefing can happen with teams made up of 6 people.. But it is a lot harder to find 6 people willing to waste hours with some lame build to get 1 fame than it is to get some AI to do it.

lol what a sad complaint. I hope you stay on your permenant vacation from GW I hear WoW is nice this time of year.

[grimwold]

umm...the huge drop in player base was actually due to 6v6. Not the heroes. Actually the heroes added an extra district. Now instead of going straight to American district 1 I would be at american district 2 at good hours(considering time zones and such). When 6v6 rolled out there was only 1 american district left just 1. kids like above been under a heavy rock for a good while...

How do you think heroway has added more people to the districts ? They dont need to do anything besides set up there hero skill bars, add the hench and click enter. Dont assume im a kid, im probably older than you are (mid twenties), but i dont see what thats got to do with anything anyway, your just assuming that all high ranked players are silly 15 year olds that shout "noob" at everyone else. In reality there are WAY more arrogant low ranked people than high ranked, but of course you dont want to hear that.

I dont go into the hero arena and complain that i cant play with real people do i ? So why should people that want to play with NPCs` force this rubbish upon me ?

[Amor Morte]

lol what a sad complaint. I hope you stay on your permenant vacation from GW I hear WoW is nice this time of year.

How very constructive of you. Permanent? heh, sure.. Seeing as changes have already been hinted at. But whatever.

Heros belong in the Hero arenas. HA is for balanced and competitive P V P. That concept too hard for your mind to get around? My sole reason for playing GW is to play against other people. Not a load of computer controlled players. I do not enjoy playing against NPC's in the slightest. I cannot squeeze an ounce of satisfaction out of beating one of those stupid teams if I tried. How is that sad?

My main reason for wanting hero's banned/limited is that it is waaaay too open to abuse from griefers with too much time on their hands.

And for crying out loud. This Rank arguement is tired and old. Do you think all of us 'elitists' pulled our rank out of a magic hat? No. We had to struggle to find unranked teams, do a bit of social networking, make friends, get regular teams and to be honest it is a bit of a grind. If you are not up for that I don't think you belong in heros ascent to start with as you obviously don't have the patience necessary for it. Go play RA/Hero arenas/pve.

[Ju Smurph]

My main reason for wanting hero's banned/limited is that it is waaaay too open to abuse from griefers with too much time on their hands.

No. We had to struggle to find unranked teams, do a bit of social networking, make friends, get regular teams and to be honest it is a bit of a grind.

How do hero's grief? POh you mean by running holding builds... because hey... they have been around pissing us off longer than heroes.

Grinding and struggling for fame? The game has said from the on set that skill> time spent.

[Amor Morte]

/sigh

These builds are not holding builds. Most of them are designed to annoy people by wasting their time. I should know. I have faced a fair few only to be greeted by some cocky little cretin boasting about how we will never kill him. Sitting around for half an hour waiting for a team to resign to get your fame has to be the lamest way of earning fame around.


Grinding and struggling for fame? The game has said from the on set that skill> time spent.

....

HA by it's very nature promotes a certain level of grinding with the emote/rank system and is more often than not an indicator of experience.

I took an old PvE friend of mine to halls a few days ago in one of our R8+ teams, and because he was inexperienced with HA he was very much the weakest link.

I speak with a lot of PvE'ers on a daily basis, and the common consensus with them is that teams primarily consisting of Hero's should not be allowed to compete in a PvP environment as it starts to blur the line between PvE and PvP.

Anyway, this is all down to opinions. And so by definition, none of which are 'right'. They are just things that each of us personally would like to see. So, with that in mind, whatever happens will happen.

[Ju Smurph]

I speak with a lot of PvE'ers on a daily basis, and the common consensus with them is that teams primarily consisting of Hero's should not be allowed to compete in a PvP environment as it starts to blur the line between PvE and PvP.


----------
Anyway, this is all down to opinions. And so by definition, none of which are 'right'. They are just things that each of us personally would like to see. So, with that in mind, whatever happens will happen.

The first half is nonsense. Blurring the lines between pve and pvp... thats what guild wars is all about baby. However please do not cite random people as being in agreeance with you. Let them post for themselves.

The second half is correct :wave:

[Motto]

How do hero's grief? POh you mean by running holding builds... because hey... they have been around pissing us off longer than heroes.
Yes holding builds have been around forever, but I have encountered a Heroway build like you would not believe. It was 4 monks, yes four, a warder and a warrior. The object of this person's build was to hold out for the other team to resign all the while boasting that there was no way to kill his team. A group of 6 people are not normally patient enough to hold for 30 minutes a match, Hero's and Henchmen do not know the meaning of time and as such have infinite patience. Griefing comes in all shapes and sizes, this was merely one of them.


Grinding and struggling for fame? The game has said from the on set that skill> time spent.
I'm sorry but you are partially wrong here. First of all a definition of 'skill' from www.dictionary.com
Skill:
1. The ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well
2. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
3. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity
4. an ability that has been acquired by training

Second, since skill comes from knowledge, practice and a persons own natural ability, one's level of skill is dependent upon:
1. The nature of a person's innate ability, be it tactical thinking, theoretical thinking, creative thinking etc.
2. How fast a person can absorb knowledge and understand it.
3. Practical experience.

Third, no two people have the exact same abilities and each will apply them differently to the same situation. Basically what it comes down to is how fast can you learn to create/play a build with 5 other people with varying experience, knowledge and ability. For some it is as easy as breathing, for others it takes time and patience to create that skill.
So the people who have natural talent and learn quickly have an advantage over those who don't in individual matches.

This is where it gets complicated:
Group A has approximately 1 hour a night to spend in HA, and gain about 30 fame each night.
Group B has about 3 hours a night to play in HA and gain 30 fame each night.
Both have gained the same amount of fame, but Group A is obviously more skilled. If Group B can learn to play better over the greater time that they have to practice and earn, say 40 fame a night over 3 hours while Group A learns to gain 35 fame a night. Group B will eventually outrank group A, who are more talented.

Yes, in theory skill>time spent, but given enough time ...

[JodoKast]

Guild Wars is not an RTS game; Guild Wars pvp is neither balanced around nor meant to be 1 person controlling a bunch of NPCs. There are a lot of things I would _like_ to be able to do in this game, but that doesn't make it good for the game in general. I'm sensible enough to realize this though.

Random Arenas are there for players looking to play quick matches with no pressure, downsides or wait times.

Heroes Ascent isn't the only arena in which you can gain faction in the game.


Every sinlge one of your points makes you sound like you should play RA or Hero Battles more.

1) NPCs have nothing to do with balance at all. The skill bars are still limited, the amount of elite per bar is also limited,....

if NPCs were really non balanced and were really giving an advantage, then everybody in top guild gvg and HA would play with heroes. As it stands, it is not the case. A player with heroes is not as efficient as a player playing with other players and in that sense, NPCs are very balanced.

The exception might be interrupts, but it is balanced out by the general dumbness of the AI in most situation. Anybody that find heroes overpowered should try to improve his/her game and find out how predictible heroes really are in my opinion. Just look at heroes battle if you want ideas of how to counter heroes...It is easy.

2) I already said it in my previous posts :

Heroes Ascent with heroes when compared to the alternative you want me to stick to is :

- more rewarding, much more
- more fun
- more challenging

I don't know for you but i tend to play games to have fun. As such, i tend to maximize the fun i can get from a game and go for the most interesting options most of the time.

The addition of Heroes is brilliant in my opinion as it allows me to play Heroes' Ascent much more frequently than in the past and therefore makes the whole game much more fun for me.

Of course, and to transition with one of your other points, i am doing this under a certain ethic of play and with civility (because that is how i behave in society, wheter online or in real life). I would not abuse a bug that i could find fun, i would not grief for pleasure,.....I don't consider however that heroes is grieving, i play with them the exact way there are ment to be played.

It again goes down to making alternatives more interesting to draw people there.

Given the two choices, people prefer to go to HA with their heroes and i can only understand them as it is clearly better in every way than heroes battle.

[Alleji]

(the scariest moment was in gvg when a spike on drunkoro was called, and he pre-guardianed himself during the countdown for the said spike).It's a bug(feature?) with heroes - they can "see" when the opposing team is targeting them. Sometimes when a hero on the other team is set to agressive and you spam target on it, it will just run to attack you.

Try it on broken tower when you're standing still against two heroway teams.

On-topic: I already expressed my opinion regarding HA on guru multiple times. So, in a nutshell, less heroes = better, 0= best, but 6v6 is trash no matter what you do to it, so removing heroes won't do much anyway.

[Lord Natural]

Yes holding builds have been around forever, but I have encountered a Heroway build like you would not believe. It was 4 monks, yes four, a warder and a warrior. The object of this person's build was to hold out for the other team to resign all the while boasting that there was no way to kill his team. A group of 6 people are not normally patient enough to hold for 30 minutes a match, Hero's and Henchmen do not know the meaning of time and as such have infinite patience. Griefing comes in all shapes and sizes, this was merely one of them.

Griefers have always been the lowest part of Guild Wars. Luckily, they are fairly uncommon. For every angry retard running an all defense griefing build, there are 100 SF heroways that fold in 60 seconds tops.

[Motto]

1)The exception might be interrupts, but it is balanced out by the general dumbness of the AI in most situation. Anybody that find heroes overpowered should try to improve his/her game and find out how predictible heroes really are in my opinion. Just look at heroes battle if you want ideas of how to counter heroes...It is easy.
The reason I object to Hero's in HA is precisely because of their predictability. AI always reacts the same way to the same situation, it is what makes them a cakewalk to kill. It also makes them boring to kill, and I mean boring. When you encounter 8 teams that are Heroway on the way to the Hall of Hero's you get extremely bored. At least, when the FotM was VIMway you almost never saw them past the relic runs.


Griefers have always been the lowest part of Guild Wars. Luckily, they are fairly uncommon. For every angry retard running an all defense griefing build, there are 100 SF heroways that fold in 60 seconds tops.
HA! True that!

[B Ephekt]

1) NPCs have nothing to do with balance at all. The skill bars are still limited, the amount of elite per bar is also limited,....

if NPCs were really non balanced and were really giving an advantage, then everybody in top guild gvg and HA would play with heroes. As it stands, it is not the case. A player with heroes is not as efficient as a player playing with other players and in that sense, NPCs are very balanced.

The exception might be interrupts, but it is balanced out by the general dumbness of the AI in most situation. Anybody that find heroes overpowered should try to improve his/her game and find out how predictible heroes really are in my opinion. Just look at heroes battle if you want ideas of how to counter heroes...It is easy.You're missing my point. I never meant to imply that heroes are unbalanced... read my post.

Guild Wars pvp was never intended to be fought RTS style, with one person controlling an entire team full of NPCs. It was meant to involve team play and communication between human players. I know there are NPCs elsewhere in pvp, but they only serve as aids for protection of key objectives, conditions, or a means to gain morale, but not as the primary participants in the battle. In a game that prides itself on pvp being centered around individual and team skill, heroes are a goddamn joke.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make that for you.


As for your other points, I'm in a tombs guild, I've been doing tombs for well over a year; in fact, tombs is the reason I bought this game. However, when I come home for lunch or in between class, I still load up RA or TA. I do this because GvG and tombs are high level arenas, and shouldn't be aproachable without the time to spend forming a group of human players. This game already has arenas for quick, non-serious pvp battles. I don't think we need to degrade our high level areans just because a few people dislike RA.

Furthermore, when heroes start to infringe on the fun of player's who actually have full human teams, they become a serious issue. This is the case for many long-time players. I haven't done tombs in probably 3 weeks now, and my entire guild and alliance would rather pve, because it's simply not fun to roll heroway after heroway. I don't play for fame, so I couldn't care less how easy it is. Tombs simply isn't fun anymore because it has been degraded by players exploiting heroes and turning the arena into a huge joke as far as competition goes.



So, all that said, it seems like it's simply more benificial to guild wars pvp as a whole to remove heroes all together, even if it will hamper some player's ideas fun.

[ZiegDivine]

Furthermore, when heroes start to infringe on the fun of player's who actually have full human teams, they become a serious issue. This is the case for many long-time players. I haven't done tombs in probably 3 weeks now, and my entire guild and alliance would rather pve, because it's simply not fun to roll heroway after heroway.

Yep, gone are the "lfg HA" in alliance chat :cry:

[Deaths]

First of all: Thanks that u posted this thread in the PvP section and not in the general section. Most ppl who play 1 or 2 times PvP in the Month would vote for Heroway. And ppl who play daily PvP would be overrun for their sake again. In my opinion make back the 8vs8 (:D yeah i know its not the subjekt). And keep heros limited at 3 and keep out the zaishen henchs out of HA. This way u have a limit of controll over ur henchs. 6vs6 was aceptable (Still its no fun like 8vs8) but heroway killed HA.

Oh for ppl who think highranks are elitists. I have trained more than 200 players in GW and am still training new players. (Im r9) Most of thouse ppl are r0-3. I just pick them up and if they are capable i train them. I have never seen a guy (or a women) who didnt say let me play with ur r9+ Friends. I dont get it. They are in a (maybe) nice Guild with ppl who are willing to train them and still they want more. U guys have to struggle through the same mistakes and poblems that we did. U will not gain faster fame if u are playing with ppl who have more expirience. U will just make the mistakes we did when we were low ranked and the entire team will lose. This game is and should be for Teams.

One more thing. 6vs6 and heroway didnt just devastate Heros ascent. It killed the entire PvP section as i can tell. Why? Im training for a long time new players. and for that reason we have a low Ladder rank. In past times we encontered Guilds ranked arround 6000-10000. In this ladder season their are no more Guilds then ranked 4000. We just didnt face any of them. Its an Indication for me that alot of ppl left GW.

[Lothiron]

Heroes in HA are fine.

I don't understand what it is that disallows HA fanatics to adopt changes. You *****ed to high heaven when they made it 6v6, and now most of you are doing it with heroes.

Grow up. The game changes, and heroes do not add that much of an advantage to a team, if any at all. A good real player > any hero.

[Julius Cassander]

For me Heroes should be limited. Cause it becomes something else not pvp. If you wanna fight with ur lovely hero go and try Heroes Arena not HA. Some ppl try new skills and builds in HA so they can use em in GvG. They use TA too. But when u get courtyard or broken tower i hate to see 5 searing flame ele plus another 5 fire ele on the other team. If rank should be useless than remove ranking system. Cause it will be very unfair to other players who got their rank in hard ways. I know finding team with no rank is terrible but a limit is needed for heroes since it becomes like more pve not pvp. A team can make a anti build for that and encounter it very easily but that is not the point. Pvp should mean PLAYER VS PLAYER not PLAYER VS HERO :huh: . Thats my opinion. Thanks :smiley:

[Lursey]

I guess the underlying problem is not heroes, or number of players, but rank

-----------------------------

In general, here we have a few factors

A) Heroes
1) allow Heroes in HA
2) not allowing heroes in HA

B) Number of players in team
1) 6:6
2) 8:8

C) Rank - players
1) lower rank
2) Higher rank

D) Skill combination sets (builds)
1) balance
2) Spike
3) pressure
4) etc

E) Types of map
1) deathmatch, 1v1, 1:1 vs 1:1, 1:1 priest
2) relics run
3) altar holding - ultimate map

F) Mode of playing
1) for holding
2) for fame
3) for fun in general, (like running gimmicks build, learning, self - satisfaction etc)

and the combination of these 6 factors, differentiate different types of people in HOH, and the general term "skill" are all required, when you play with hero, where the ability you can control the hero; and when you play with human, the ability you can control the human; how the combination of human, AI, mode of playing, builds, react in an environment of 6:6, 8:8, in different maps

-------------------------

Rank have never been a good indicator for a person's specific skill, but is a good generalization indicator than having many different types of rank to show how much a player have advanced in a certain area.

what anet can control, is factor A), B), C), D), E)....and indirectly F)..

and I guess, every time there is a change, players will have to adapt to a new environment, and their old skills may or may not be useful in that change, which further decrease the reliability of rank.

----------------------

The elitist problem refers to higher rank players can't interact with lower rank players in both directions, where,

-higher rank players dislike to play with low rank due to they think they are not skillful in a certain area,
-higher rank always think they are the most correct, and experience
-lower rank players then can't find a group
-lower rank players think they are not as bad as higher ranks think
-lower rank players keep losing, and eventually lose interest

analogy, if a high rank player playing with a low rank player
is like, asking an university student, and a primary school student. sitting in the same classroom to learn, 4th year university materials. The university student will find it hard and unable to discuss with the primary school student, as their knowledge level they have is different.

-------------

having rank system, will allow players to able to find similar knowledge level players, so as they can improve together... but as time goes..will create the elitist problem, when different knowledge level players played together.

to eliminate the elitist problem, a method, is to not allow the rank system to dominate how players to choose other players... this method is not good, because this will allow a scramble of different knowledge level players played together....when different knowledge level as previously discussed, will slow down the improvement of individuals.

I guess the best method is to turn the elitist problem into something like a school system, which there is an encouragement for teacher to teacher student, and student can learn among the same knowledge level students.

--------

so.to the end, in my opinion, rank place an underlying problem in hoh.
and for Anet to considers, are all the factor heroes, number of players, rank, builds, type of maps, as they all affect the mode of players playing

[grimwold]

yet another person banging on about the "rank problem". high ranker players were once low ranked, we didnt just pull the fame out of a magic hat. we all had the same problems that the current low ranked people face but we got on with it. sure its a drag, but if you dont want the hassle then dont bother.

maybe if you spent more time playing and building up a contact list of players and less time whining about it you might do the same.

loose the heroes, go back to 8v8. HA was far from perfect in its old state, but it sure as hell wasnt the huge embarassment it is today.

[supaet]

First of all: Thanks that u posted this thread in the PvP section and not in the general section. Most ppl who play 1 or 2 times PvP in the Month would vote for Heroway. And ppl who play daily PvP would be overrun for their sake again. In my opinion make back the 8vs8 (:D yeah i know its not the subjekt). And keep heros limited at 3 and keep out the zaishen henchs out of HA. This way u have a limit of controll over ur henchs. 6vs6 was aceptable (Still its no fun like 8vs8) but heroway killed HA.

Oh for ppl who think highranks are elitists. I have trained more than 200 players in GW and am still training new players. (Im r9) Most of thouse ppl are r0-3. I just pick them up and if they are capable i train them. I have never seen a guy (or a women) who didnt say let me play with ur r9+ Friends. I dont get it. They are in a (maybe) nice Guild with ppl who are willing to train them and still they want more. U guys have to struggle through the same mistakes and poblems that we did. U will not gain faster fame if u are playing with ppl who have more expirience. U will just make the mistakes we did when we were low ranked and the entire team will lose. This game is and should be for Teams.

One more thing. 6vs6 and heroway didnt just devastate Heros ascent. It killed the entire PvP section as i can tell. Why? Im training for a long time new players. and for that reason we have a low Ladder rank. In past times we encontered Guilds ranked arround 6000-10000. In this ladder season their are no more Guilds then ranked 4000. We just didnt face any of them. Its an Indication for me that alot of ppl left GW.

well said, 2 id last night 8pm pacific time is just sad

[Lykan]

The elitist problem refers to higher rank players can't interact with lower rank players in both directions, where,
is it wrong to want to play with people of your own level? no one in this game got babied up to rank 9 by high level players

-higher rank players dislike to play with low rank due to they think they are not skillful in a certain area,
most are less skillful
-higher rank always think they are the most correct, and experience
time=experience? yes
-lower rank players then can't find a group
no they just think they cant because instead of playing with each other and making their own teams they expect to just get into high ranked teams, and dont tell me there are none forming, i see multiples of unranked teams forming in my home district all the time
-lower rank players think they are not as bad as higher ranks think
again most are wrong, i sometimes just go and join random unranked pugs and most are not as good as high ranked teams
-lower rank players keep losing, and eventually lose interest
if your not willing to put your whole game into playing HA you should not bother, it is not a casual past time


Some people think high ranked people started the rank issue but in reality it is created by lazy new players who think they are the only ones who started off with no rank.

Get off your ***** and make your own teams, dont expect to roll up and jump into ranked teams because you think you belong there.

[supaet]

Heroes in HA are fine.

I don't understand what it is that disallows HA fanatics to adopt changes. You *****ed to high heaven when they made it 6v6, and now most of you are doing it with heroes.

Grow up. The game changes, and heroes do not add that much of an advantage to a team, if any at all. A good real player > any hero.

Who said heroes are overpowered? Don't talk like this is a nerf complain. This change totally ruins a game mode. For example, you go play pve and fight ai monsters, suddenly the monster become human control and pwns you. Embrace the change? You cannot fight ai any more!!!

when I enter hero's ascent, i don't want to fight ai or someone playing rts, because i can do that in pve or hero's battle. Heroes have denied my right to face full human team in hoh. How is that not a problem? Rank is not a problem, i dont care if heroways are farming fame or whatever, when I play hoh, i only want to fight HUMAN not AI. How is that a problem relate to rank/elitism, or whatever you call it.

[supaet]

----------------------

The elitist problem refers to higher rank players can't interact with lower rank players in both directions, where,

-higher rank players dislike to play with low rank due to they think they are not skillful in a certain area,
-higher rank always think they are the most correct, and experience
-lower rank players then can't find a group
-lower rank players think they are not as bad as higher ranks think
-lower rank players keep losing, and eventually lose interest

analogy, if a high rank player playing with a low rank player
is like, asking an university student, and a primary school student. sitting in the same classroom to learn, 4th year university materials. The university student will find it hard and unable to discuss with the primary school student, as their knowledge level they have is different.

-------------

having rank system, will allow players to able to find similar knowledge level players, so as they can improve together... but as time goes..will create the elitist problem, when different knowledge level players played together.

to eliminate the elitist problem, a method, is to not allow the rank system to dominate how players to choose other players... this method is not good, because this will allow a scramble of different knowledge level players played together....when different knowledge level as previously discussed, will slow down the improvement of individuals.

I guess the best method is to turn the elitist problem into something like a school system, which there is an encouragement for teacher to teacher student, and student can learn among the same knowledge level students.

--------

so.to the end, in my opinion, rank place an underlying problem in hoh.
and for Anet to considers, are all the factor heroes, number of players, rank, builds, type of maps, as they all affect the mode of players playing

Like you said, the university student (r6-8) and primary school (r3-5) student cant play together because of their experience level. So the primary school student needs to learn and study with other primary school students and get better. Eventually, he'll become a university student and can study with other university students. mean while, the university student before is still a university student because it takes much longer time to reach graduate student (r9) than a primary to reach university student status. As for kidergarden students (r0-2), of course they will have to study with other fellow kids before they reach primary school, but they'll get there in no time, only needs 180 credit where as the university student needs tons more to become graduate student. So exactly, how is that a PROBLEM? If you're a kidergarner, would you be expecting to study with a graduate student? of course not. Is it a problem if the university do not accept the kidergardener? of course not. Is it elitism if graduate students study together? of course not. Can a kidergardener be smarter than a graduate student? certainly, but who have more kwowledge and experience?

So how exactly rank is a problem?

[Aiiane]

Like you said, the university student (r6-8) and primary school (r3-5) student cant play together because of their experience level. So the primary school student needs to learn and study with other primary school students and get better. Eventually, he'll become a university student and can study with other university students. mean while, the university student before is still a university student because it takes much longer time to reach graduate student (r9) than a primary to reach university student status. As for kidergarden students (r0-2), of course they will have to study with other fellow kids before they reach primary school, but they'll get there in no time, only needs 180 credit where as the university student needs tons more to become graduate student. So exactly, how is that a PROBLEM? If you're a kidergarner, would you be expecting to study with a graduate student? of course not. Is it a problem if the university do not accept the kidergardener? of course not. Is it elitism if graduate students study together? of course not. Can a kidergardener be smarter than a graduate student? certainly, but who have more kwowledge and experience?

So how exactly rank is a problem?

Not exactly a very good analogy, because if you then went and translated HA into those terms, the kindergarteners and the university students would be taking the same tests, since HA battles aren't set up based on rank.

[Lursey]

Like you said, the university student (r6-8) and primary school (r3-5) student cant play together because of their experience level. So the primary school student needs to learn and study with other primary school students and get better. Eventually, he'll become a university student and can study with other university students. mean while, the university student before is still a university student because it takes much longer time to reach graduate student (r9) than a primary to reach university student status. As for kidergarden students (r0-2), of course they will have to study with other fellow kids before they reach primary school, but they'll get there in no time, only needs 180 credit where as the university student needs tons more to become graduate student. So exactly, how is that a PROBLEM? If you're a kidergarner, would you be expecting to study with a graduate student? of course not. Is it a problem if the university do not accept the kidergardener? of course not. Is it elitism if graduate students study together? of course not. Can a kidergardener be smarter than a graduate student? certainly, but who have more kwowledge and experience?

So how exactly rank is a problem?


the rank problem is....lower rank and higher rank are allowed to play together in the same environment.

and also, how many university on earth will actually accept all kindergardener?

if not all kindergardener able to go to the university at the same time.. the problem will always exist.

[defrule]

Not exactly a very good analogy, because if you then went and translated HA into those terms, the kindergarteners and the university students would be taking the same tests, since HA battles aren't set up based on rank.

You are wrong, that is a good analogy.

[Aiiane]

You are wrong, that is a good analogy.

Care to provide some justification for that assertion?

[supaet]

Not exactly a very good analogy, because if you then went and translated HA into those terms, the kindergarteners and the university students would be taking the same tests, since HA battles aren't set up based on rank.

Good point, but that wasnt my analogy. I quoted someone for it. Yes the take the same test, but lower level students require less credits to graduate and move on to next level.

[Lursey]

Some people think high ranked people started the rank issue but in reality it is created by lazy new players who think they are the only ones who started off with no rank.

Get off your ***** and make your own teams, dont expect to roll up and jump into ranked teams because you think you belong there.

what I am trying to explain here.. is not telling how a lower rank player or higher rank player feels, but to explain situations when higher and lower rank players play together.....

in rank terms.
like, how you feel if you are a rank 9 players, have to play with unknown rank 0 players in the same team from now on everyday, vice versa... will you be enjoying?

some may say, yes , some may say no.. which really depends on their mode of playing.....refer to my previous post..

but..is there a way to make the one who is saying they are not enjoying in the situation that rank 9 and rank 0 players in the same team.. will say enjoying? -- I think that is the question....

[Aiiane]

Good point, but that wasnt my analogy. I quoted someone for it. Yes the take the same test, but lower level students require less credits to graduate and move on to next level.

But would it not make more sense to require the same amount of credits, but instead have different difficulty levels of tests?

Generally, if I can perform well once on difficulty level A, I can perform well on difficulty level A over and over again, so the number of credits required is irrelevant - it's like saying that college students should take Algebra I three times to graduate.

[supaet]

the rank problem is....lower rank and higher rank are allowed to play together in the same environment.

and also, how many university on earth will actually accept all kindergardener?

if not all kindergardener able to go to the university at the same time.. the problem will always exist.

well, I don't know if it's a problem if a high rank team faces a low rank team. I mean, sure the high rank team can pwn, but if your a low rank team, do you always want to play against another low rank team? You can learn from losing to a high rank team.

NO university will accept kindergardener, not untill they graduate from primary school. That is not a problem. If a university student is nice enough, he could tuitor some lower level student. It's not require and should not be expected.

Again, kidergardener should not expect to go to university or study with university student, or get into university groups untill they graduate from primary school and become university student.

[defrule]

Care to provide some justification for that assertion?

The rank system and the analogy given are isomorphic.

[Aiiane]

The rank system and the analogy given are isomorphic.

I'm still only seeing point blank statements, with no reasoning behind them.

[thedrjay]

But would it not make more sense to require the same amount of credits, but instead have different difficulty levels of tests?

Generally, if I can perform well once on difficulty level A, I can perform well on difficulty level A over and over again, so the number of credits required is irrelevant - it's like saying that college students should take Algebra I three times to graduate.

The different difficulties or tests are the various maps within HA. A University player (R9) will generally make it to the higher level tests (maps) on a more consistent basis, thereby earning more credits (fame) and become a better player as the different maps have increasingly difficult conditions to manage.

[Lursey]

well, I don't know if it's a problem if a high rank team faces a low rank team. I mean, sure the high rank team can pwn, but if your a low rank team, do you always want to play against another low rank team? You can learn from losing to a high rank team.

NO university will accept kindergardener, not untill they graduate from primary school. That is not a problem. If a university student is nice enough, he could tuitor some lower level student. It's not require and should not be expected.

Again, kidergardener should not expect to go to university or study with university student, or get into university groups untill they graduate from primary school and become university student.

I agree kindergardener should not expect to go to university, but everytime when there is such an expectation, the problem will start rolling....

also
like once when you start thinking you are better than the other..
happens, when a higher rank players think they are better than lower rank players......but in actual fact, the lower rank player certain skills are better than the higher rank players...

notwithstanding
the fact that when such lower rank players who think they possess the required skills, joined or being invited to a higher rank groups, but..in reality, they are not up to the level, will affect how the whole team function... and may affect how other players in the team to attain their normal skill level as well....which in a result...not wasting but...affecting everyone's time...

which this doesn't just apply to lower rank players think they are better, but also apply to when a higher rank players think they are better than a lower or a higher rank player...etc.

[defrule]

I'm still only seeing point blank statements, with no reasoning behind them.

First, a comment on what you said.
You were saying the test are different and stuff but do they need to be identical in order for an analogy to be valid? When I say:
1 Car + 1 Car = 2 Cars
An analogy using pens would be valid. However it seems you would disagree with such a claim and say that a pen is different to a car so analogy is bad. But is it? The underlying structure of both examples are the same.

Referring back to the rank and education thing, does it matter if there is a slight difference between how one is examined to the other? The point of the analogy was simply to show that students of a lower level of education cannot possibly study with higher level student, which is the underlying structure of the rank system since a low ranked player can't play with high ranked ones.

[Lursey]

To the end.. my inherent argument is that by just affecting a certain aspect of factors of Heroes' Ascent without curing the underlying problem, the whinging will always exist...

no matter, how many heroes, players, or maps are added or reduced in HOH

[supaet]

I dont care what you people think, but in hoh, high rank player is BETTER than low rank player unless they ebayed their rank. Why do I say that? that's because guildwars is a team game, the team wins or lose is depend on the team work. It does not depend on a certain individual's skill. Some one who is a rank 9 is more helpful to the team than someone who is rank 6 who has godly reflexes and uber skill playing a certain class/role.

So low rank players, please, A HIGHER RANK PLAYER IS BETTER THAN YOU IN HOH!!!!! it's a FACT

[Aiiane]

The point of the analogy was simply to show that students of a lower level of education cannot possibly study with higher level student, which is the underlying structure of the rank system since a low ranked player can't play with high ranked ones.

Except that they do - only as an opponent, rather than a teammate.


The different difficulties or tests are the various maps within HA. A University player (R9) will generally make it to the higher level tests (maps) on a more consistent basis, thereby earning more credits (fame) and become a better player as the different maps have increasingly difficult conditions to manage.

Remove map skips then.

[Lursey]

I dont care what you people think, but in hoh, high rank player is BETTER than low rank player unless they ebayed their rank. Why do I say that? that's because guildwars is a team game, the team wins or lose is depend on the team work. It does not depend on a certain individual's skill. Some one who is a rank 9 is more helpful to the team than someone who is rank 6 who has godly reflexes and uber skill playing a certain class/role.

So low rank players, please, A HIGHER RANK PLAYER IS BETTER THAN YOU IN HOH!!!!! it's a FACT

very contradicting statement, how a higher rank player is better than a lower rank player if when they are not more helpful in the team game.?

rank sometimes can also mean time spend, time spend does not mean talent

[Lursey]

also there can be a better differentiating system, is to differentiate by the speed a player can learn, than the current one which incorporate with time spend....

[supaet]

very contradicting statement, how a higher rank player is better than a lower rank player if when they are not more helpful in the team game.?

rank sometimes can also mean time spend, time spend does not mean talent

I think you misunderstood, read it a again, my point is a rank 9 is more helpful than a rank6 even if the rank6 have more talent.

In hoh, it's a team game, cooperation is key. As a result, in hoh, experiences is more important than talent.

[defrule]

When I say play with, I mean as a teammate. Forget about the idea of playing against higher ranked players. The point is low ranked players don't get into higher ranked teams, just as first year school students don't study with students with university.
Just read what I just said, and there is the simple point of the analogy. Is it that hard to understand?

[Lursey]

I think you misunderstood, read it a again, my point is a rank 9 is more helpful than a rank6 even if the rank6 have more talent.

In hoh, it's a team game, cooperation is key. As a result, in hoh, experiences is more important than talent.

even a player can learn faster than an experienced players and develop new experience which may be better than the old experience that an old experienced player have?



also I don't mean a rank 9 is not more helpful than a rank6, but a rank 9 can sometimes not more helpful than a rank6

[supaet]

even a player can learn faster than an experienced players and develop new experience which may be better than the old experience that an old experienced player have?

Yes.

No matter how fast you learn, you still need to experience through many battles and teams. And I don't see how one can develope a new experience better than the experiences the veteran have. You could give me an example.

[Lursey]

Yes.

No matter how fast you learn, you still need to experience through many battles and teams. And I don't see how one can develope a new experience better than the experiences the veteran have. You could give me an example.

experience gain based on many factors, and it certainly depends on opportunity,
when there is a luck factor, a long experience may or may not better than a short experience...

however development also depends on imagination a person can have, imagination depends on talent, gaining experience does not depends on talent
but developing experience depends on talent.

if I may be wrong, what you are saying is a veteran will expose to a bigger opportunity to see something new and incorporate become his experience that he doesn't have and so as he gained new experience...

but development of new experience is when a player can actually based on old experience developed new methodology or type of experience that has not been existed before..

development requires talent as well as experience

a veteran will have a bigger opportunity to expose to experience, but does not mean he can be as talent as a person who develops new experience.

the first experience is just a gain in individual experience, the second will be a gain in totality of experience...

-------

just like a person find out ways on how "words of healing" can kill enemy instead of just healing when the first time he use "words of healing", or ways that can use "woh" to heal more efficiently may be better

than a person has been using words of healing to keep teammate alive for 1 year.

-----

therefore, in my opinion, I think you can't say experience is more important than talent...

[Julius Cassander]

talent means nothing without the right experience and team play. U can use all the skills perfectly and u can still lose. In a team game u have to be experienced. Yea talent helps a lot too but experience is the key word. A talented team can lose to an experienced team. Experience means everything in this game. Think about GvG. If u dont know how to bodyblock or split exc u cant win even u r the most talented player on earth. And GW is based on intelligence. It is like fast chess. And u have to be experienced to play a team based chess.

[Lursey]

talent means nothing without the right experience and team play. U can use all the skills perfectly and u can still lose. In a team game u have to be experienced. Yea talent helps a lot too but experience is the key word. A talented team can lose to an experienced team. Experience means everything in this game. Think about GvG. If u dont know how to bodyblock or split exc u cant win even u r the most talented player on earth. And GW is based on intelligence. It is like fast chess. And u have to be experienced to play a team based chess.


How about if I say this.
In a team game you have to be talented, yea experience helps a lot too but, talent is the key word, An experienced team can lose to an talented team.
Talent Means everything in this game. Think about GvG. If u don't know how to "learn" bodyblock or split "efficiently" etc, you can't win even you are the most experienced guildwars player "in something" on earth....


what I am trying to say is, just experience or talent is not certain to determine a player's skill or winning a match or a mode of playing.... therefore saying whether experience or talent is more important, is a personal preference, which cannot conclude anything..

[Lursey]

Back to the topic...

how about, a inverse rewarding system, that

from 0-3 each players in the group are allowed to bring 3 heroes

from 4-6 each players in the group are allowed to bring 2 heroes

from 7-9 each players in the groups are allowed to bring 1 hero

from 10+ players are not allowed to bring hero

[supaet]

experience gain based on many factors, and it certainly depends on opportunity,
when there is a luck factor, a long experience may or may not better than a short experience...

however development also depends on imagination a person can have, imagination depends on talent, gaining experience does not depends on talent
but developing experience depends on talent.

if I may be wrong, what you are saying is a veteran will expose to a bigger opportunity to see something new and incorporate become his experience that he doesn't have and so as he gained new experience...

but development of new experience is when a player can actually based on old experience developed new methodology or type of experience that has not been existed before..

development requires talent as well as experience

a veteran will have a bigger opportunity to expose to experience, but does not mean he can be as talent as a person who develops new experience.

the first experience is just a gain in individual experience, the second will be a gain in totality of experience...

-------

just like a person find out ways on how "words of healing" can kill enemy instead of just healing when the first time he use "words of healing", or ways that can use "woh" to heal more efficiently may be better

than a person has been using words of healing to keep teammate alive for 1 year.

-----

therefore, in my opinion, I think you can't say experience is more important than talent...

That's a terrible example. The person that has being using woh to keep teammate alive for one year is certainly more helpful to the team than the noob who find out ways to use words of healing to kill enemy or how to use it more efficiently (only they think).

In this game, it doesnt matter how good you think you are. Your performance is judged by others, not yourself. And rank means experiences, you can argue however you want about how your rank 6 experience is more meaning ful than his rank 9 experience. Experiences is experiences in hoh, it has no quality, only quantity. rank means /age in hoh. /age in hoh means the amount of experiences in hoh. The higher the experiences, they better the player is in hoh. Not as an individual, but his contribution to the team.

[supaet]

Back to the topic...

how about, a inverse rewarding system, that

from 0-3 each players in the group are allowed to bring 3 heroes

from 4-6 each players in the group are allowed to bring 2 heroes

from 7-9 each players in the groups are allowed to bring 1 hero

from 10+ players are not allowed to bring hero

I dont get it, why new players are encouraged to play heroway? why cant they learn to form human group and play themself???? everyone in hoh has done it. Why do people want to gain rank so fast? to prove what? rank means nothing but experiences in hoh. Why cant people play try to play with groups around their experiences level? why have to rush and why you want to play in high rank group? why?

[Lursey]

That's a terrible example. The person that has being using woh to keep teammate alive for one year is certainly more helpful to the team than the noob who find out ways to use words of healing to kill enemy or how to use it more efficiently (only they think).

In this game, it doesnt matter how good you think you are. Your performance is judged by others, not yourself. And rank means experiences, you can argue however you want about how your rank 6 experience is more meaning ful than his rank 9 experience. Experiences is experiences in hoh, it has no quality, only quantity. rank means /age in hoh. /age in hoh means the amount of experiences in hoh. The higher the experiences, they better the player is in hoh. Not as an individual, but his contribution to the team.

I still think by arguing experience or talent is more important is a personal preference....does not mean anything

a person has been more helpful in the team may not be as helpful as in other team... so as may not be contributing to other team...

so what can you conclude?

and I never try to convey an idea that talent is over experience, just to say, by saying one is over the other, doesn't not determine anything

someone or something is better than the other.. is just a personal preference.... and by that....I want to lead back to

the main arguement for my Hero Ascent improvement is to eliminate the way someone is thinking something is better than something.

[Aiiane]

When I say play with, I mean as a teammate. Forget about the idea of playing against higher ranked players. The point is low ranked players don't get into higher ranked teams, just as first year school students don't study with students with university.
Just read what I just said, and there is the simple point of the analogy. Is it that hard to understand?

Yet the poster of the analogy attempted to take it far beyond that simple point. If they had stuck with it, I would have had less reason to consider it a poor analogy.

[Lursey]

Back to the topic...

how about, a inverse rewarding system, that

from 0-3 each players in the group are allowed to bring 3 heroes

from 4-6 each players in the group are allowed to bring 2 heroes

from 7-9 each players in the groups are allowed to bring 1 hero

from 10+ players are not allowed to bring hero

hmm or

from 0-3 players are not allowed to bring hero

from 4-6 each players in the group are allowed to bring 1 hero

from 7-9 each players in the groups are allowed to bring 2 heroes

from 10+ each players in the group are allowed to bring 3 heroes

hmm or...

who ever bring heroes will have a fame penalty like you have to win 3 match in order to get fame equivalent to 1 match with full human?

[Lursey]

I dont get it, why new players are encouraged to play heroway? why cant they learn to form human group and play themself???? everyone in hoh has done it. Why do people want to gain rank so fast? to prove what? rank means nothing but experiences in hoh. Why cant people play try to play with groups around their experiences level? why have to rush and why you want to play in high rank group? why?


playing with hero is just another mode of playing....which also require skills.

[ELT]

VERY on topic guys... 10 page of rank argumentation... I dont wanna play with high rank players... I dont care if they are better... Theres no need to argue rank when this is TOPIC is about heroes in HA limit them to 3 thanks ;)

[Motto]

Also remember that this subject is about Heroes' Ascent and Heroes, not "Change it back to 8v8." That may be a subject for another day, but for right now, Heroes, Heroes' Ascent, etc, eh?
Maybe Rank discrimination should have been added to that.

First of all, if you are just starting out, Hero's DO NOT help you gain rank even if you copied a build from somewhere. The reason why that is is because you would have no experience running that build, you don't know what other teams are running or how to counter them, and you don't know the maps or the objectives of each map.
It is true that after a few rounds with Hero's you will learn the first few maps, but for the most part you will end up losing because you still don't know how to effectively run the build you copied, and countering another team's build will be near impossible if you are still learning your own.

Heroway is done for the most part by people in the middle of the ranking (ie r3-r9) that do not want, or cannot find people to play with them in the hopes of winning a few battles to increase their fame.

Hero's are popular in HA because the general consensus is that looking for groups takes to much time, or finding that extra person that might or might not rage quit is a pain. So we have the individual, who wants to get into a group, but doesn't want to spend time looking and the group that needs an extra person, but doesn't want to pick up a person who won't stick around. Tada, both take Hero's. Eventually the mentality will become, "No one is looking for a group." and "No group will take me because a Hero can do it".
There will be the exception of course, I'm not denying that.

Hero's have become the quick fix for the impatient.

[supaet]

playing with hero is just another mode of playing....which also require skills.

BINGO, playing with hero is just ANOTHER MODE of playing. why should pvpers have to play with ANOTHER MODE of playing when they enter ha to pvp? it's pvp, not pvai. The another mode of playing is heroe's battle. In any arena, there should be only one mode, either all the teams are heroway or all the teams are human. It is unfair force a full team of human to fight a heroway because they did not intend to do that when they enter HA.

[Lursey]

BINGO, playing with hero is just ANOTHER MODE of playing. why should pvpers have to play with ANOTHER MODE of playing when they enter ha to pvp? it's pvp, not pvai. The another mode of playing is heroe's battle. In any arena, there should be only one mode, either all the teams are heroway or all the teams are human. It is unfair force a full team of human to fight a heroway because they did not intend to do that when they enter HA.

I really want to say that..

if guildwars is consistently changing...limiting an environment in a mode of playing is just really not "thinking out of the box"...making everything predictable.

why even the manuscript says so Heroes' Ascent is pvp arena/tournament.....it can't ever evolve into any another type of arena?...

I mean.. isn't Heroes' Ascent is just an environment, where players can play within?
and how players want to play within the environment.. is really their choice?

I guess...then..is what Anet want Heroes' Ascent to be instead of what we want Heroes' Ascent to be..

if we become the one to decide how Heroes' Ascent become....when will this settle?... who is the one actually can decide what HA is, and can be...?

----

also isn't you can control the hero meaning the hero is actually AI replace some monotonous job but back up with a player's mind?

----

how about henchy? haven't they always been there in HA....can't hero replace henchy?

[supaet]

I really want to say that..

if guildwars is consistently changing...limiting an environment in a mode of playing is just really not "thinking out of the box"...making everything predictable.

why even the manuscript says so Heroes' Ascent is pvp arena/tournament.....it can't ever evolve into any another type of arena?...

I mean.. isn't Heroes' Ascent is just an environment, where players can play within?
and how players want to play within the environment.. is really their choice?

I guess...then..is what Anet want Heroes' Ascent to be instead of what we want Heroes' Ascent to be..

if we become the one to decide how Heroes' Ascent become....when will this settle?... who is the one actually can decide what HA is, and can be...?

Anet can decide what they want to do with ha, we're only voicing our opinion. They changed to 6v6, but still pvp, but now with heroway, the whole pvp is gone. It's my opinion that ha, or another high end pvp arena should be pvp but not pvai. Also there is already a hero's battle mode. For example, would it be a bad change if hero's battle allow teams of 4 human to play? it totally DEFEATS THE POINT of that arena. That is what heroway is doing to HA now. What I do not want to see is a full team of 6 human, entering HA, expecting high level human competition, but instead, they get one human + 5 AI. How insulting is that? Anet, could you give me a full human team to play against please?

I think that's how regular ha pvper feel right now, that's why you only get 2 districts in ID at 8pm pacific time last night. how sad is that.

[Lursey]

Anet can decide what they want to do with ha, we're only voicing our opinion. They changed to 6v6, but still pvp, but now with heroway, the whole pvp is gone. It's my opinion that ha, or another high end pvp arena should be pvp but not pvai. Also there is already a hero's battle mode. For example, would it be a bad change if hero's battle allow teams of 4 human to play? it totally DEFEATS THE POINT of that arena. That is what heroway is doing to HA now. What I do not want to see is a full team of 6 human, entering HA, expecting high level human competition, but instead, they get one human + 5 AI. How insulting is that? Anet, could you give me a full human team to play against please?

I think that's how regular ha pvper feel right now, that's why you only get 2 districts in ID at 8pm pacific time last night. how sad is that.

quite true, if changing back to full human team.. but then we have to deal with the rank problem....

which I also think dealing with rank problem is more interesting than human v AI in HA.....(note..disregarding ...henchy)

but..isn't adding a new factor in HA is creating more complexity ?...

is complexity good or bad?...if it is not totally bad...then total eliminating heroes will be a bad idea

[Bacon]

quite true, if changing back to full human team.. but then we have to deal with the rank problem....

which I also think dealing with rank problem is more interesting than human v AI in HA.....(note..disregarding ...henchy)

but..isn't adding a new factor in HA is creating more complexity ?...

is complexity good or bad?...if it is not totally bad...then total eliminating heroes will be a bad idea

Forcing monks to bring Mantra of Flame, and using it at least every other match, if not every, makes complexity sound pretty bad.

[taste of tao]

Ok, let us assume you could give heroes a personalized name and there is no more identification of hero/ henchman or human.
If you would defeat that team now, would you feel better, because you thought it is all human? Or would your satisfaction decrease with the amount of human players you thought you could beat? For most the answer would be no, I just get bored to meet always the same type of build or I get bored because there is no challenge.

From what I can see there are mainly 2 groups. One group which is experienced and has a hard time to meet a challenging group, the other one which is not experienced and wants to get there. (Ha, ha)
The first group, which is much smaller, has one problem: it takes some time to get the experience and it needs many to start, so that there will be enough left to reach that point.
The old system made it quite hard to become part of this group because not enough players had the time and tenacity to stick around long enough to advance to this core group. So HA experienced a slow death.
The new implementations of 6x6 and heroes give HA a huge inflow of new players.
They can now enjoy for the first time to play and challenge teams in HA. So naturally they have a lot of fun. They might miss the experience of making friends but it is much better then being constantly frustrated of not being able to play. The old timers should say: great one condition to get a challenge is fulfilled; we get enough new blood now.
So yes to 5 AI, but a limited amount of heroes (max. 2), so that you are forced to look for other human players if you want to advance further.
For experienced groups most first rounds are likely easy and boring it does not matter whether that group will be human or mixed or mainly AI.
The fun later on is missing, due to FOTM builds which are easy to play and so powerful that they overpower most other builds except when played by very experienced players.
They are in the moment greatly outnumbered by all the new people who can finally play HA. But if it is done right, they will evolve and are the only chance to keep HA alive.
I think a rebalancing of skills could do this with limiting the heroes. This should make it possible to get your feet wet but difficult to succeed in later rounds.

[Lursey]

Ok, let us assume you could give heroes a personalized name and there is no more identification of hero/ henchman or human.
If you would defeat that team now, would you feel better, because you thought it is all human? Or would your satisfaction decrease with the amount of human players you thought you could beat? For most the answer would be no, I just get bored to meet always the same type of build or I get bored because there is no challenge.

From what I can see there are mainly 2 groups. One group which is experienced and has a hard time to meet a challenging group, the other one which is not experienced and wants to get there. (Ha, ha)
The first group, which is much smaller, has one problem: it takes some time to get the experience and it needs many to start, so that there will be enough left to reach that point.
The old system made it quite hard to become part of this group because not enough players had the time and tenacity to stick around long enough to advance to this core group. So HA experienced a slow death.
The new implementations of 6x6 and heroes give HA a huge inflow of new players.
They can now enjoy for the first time to play and challenge teams in HA. So naturally they have a lot of fun. They might miss the experience of making friends but it is much better then being constantly frustrated of not being able to play. The old timers should say: great one condition to get a challenge is fulfilled; we get enough new blood now.
So yes to 5 AI, but a limited amount of heroes (max. 2), so that you are forced to look for other human players if you want to advance further.
For experienced groups most first rounds are likely easy and boring it does not matter whether that group will be human or mixed or mainly AI.
The fun later on is missing, due to FOTM builds which are easy to play and so powerful that they overpower most other builds except when played by very experienced players.
They are in the moment greatly outnumbered by all the new people who can finally play HA. But if it is done right, they will evolve and are the only chance to keep HA alive.
I think a rebalancing of skills could do this with limiting the heroes. This should make it possible to get your feet wet but difficult to succeed in later rounds.

If I have an assumption that, even a skill changed and limited the number of heroes.....will FOTM disappear? I guess is no.what disappear is just the current FOTM.... there is always someone can think of something that is easy to play...and powerful...no matter how many skill changes there are....

if just on going addressing only the surface problem...what is the point of making an opinion? .. there are always some opinions that are opposes to someone's...I mean people have different values..

[supaet]

Ok, let us assume you could give heroes a personalized name and there is no more identification of hero/ henchman or human.
If you would defeat that team now, would you feel better, because you thought it is all human? Or would your satisfaction decrease with the amount of human players you thought you could beat? For most the answer would be no, I just get bored to meet always the same type of build or I get bored because there is no challenge.

From what I can see there are mainly 2 groups. One group which is experienced and has a hard time to meet a challenging group, the other one which is not experienced and wants to get there. (Ha, ha)
The first group, which is much smaller, has one problem: it takes some time to get the experience and it needs many to start, so that there will be enough left to reach that point.
The old system made it quite hard to become part of this group because not enough players had the time and tenacity to stick around long enough to advance to this core group. So HA experienced a slow death.
The new implementations of 6x6 and heroes give HA a huge inflow of new players.
They can now enjoy for the first time to play and challenge teams in HA. So naturally they have a lot of fun. They might miss the experience of making friends but it is much better then being constantly frustrated of not being able to play. The old timers should say: great one condition to get a challenge is fulfilled; we get enough new blood now.
So yes to 5 AI, but a limited amount of heroes (max. 2), so that you are forced to look for other human players if you want to advance further.
For experienced groups most first rounds are likely easy and boring it does not matter whether that group will be human or mixed or mainly AI.
The fun later on is missing, due to FOTM builds which are easy to play and so powerful that they overpower most other builds except when played by very experienced players.
They are in the moment greatly outnumbered by all the new people who can finally play HA. But if it is done right, they will evolve and are the only chance to keep HA alive.
I think a rebalancing of skills could do this with limiting the heroes. This should make it possible to get your feet wet but difficult to succeed in later rounds.

new blood? Look at how many district america and international have now, all time low........

If a player who only plays heroway, he is not a ha player, when heroes are not allow, he'll be gone because he cant find groups, not because of his rank, but because of his ignorance in communication and team play. New blood? HA don't need new blood who play heroway.

[Lursey]

new blood? Look at how many district america and international have now, all time low........

If a player who only plays heroway, he is not a ha player, when heroes are not allow, he'll be gone because he cant find groups, not because of his rank, but because of his ignorance in communication and team play. New blood? HA don't need new blood who play heroway.


if the assumed statistical analyze is correct, what only can conclude perhaps is players who want to play with hero in HA is less than players who only want to play without heroes..... holding other factors constant....when comparing 6:6 with heroes, and 6:6 without heroes

as the statistical analyze is based on an assumption, the assumption can always be refuted

also noted the factor that, the the history of HA has been based on without Heroes is longer than with heroes.... player based without heroes maybe have already adapted to the environment, player base build up as time goes... and it seems like asking a doctor to change to a lawyer...(occupational immobility)

Also, more differentiation will result lessor people in a general stream

like...anet is differentiating pvp into so much type of arena..

certainly players play within a type arena will develop the skill according to the type of arena...

a sudden differentiation will result separation of people in a general stream...and creating more different purpose for different stream

just like we had HA without alliance battle, jade quarry/ fort aspenwoods, and heros arena, etc

there perhaps more players in HA at that time, after

we have HA, alliance battle. Jade quarry/fort aspenwoods, and heroes arena.

players are just being diverted and differentiated to these other arena....

and a player cannot at the same time play in HA and Jade Quarry or other arena...

then, amount of players is harder to concentrate in one stream...

if you want more people in one area.. is combining the area together, and not separating them.. in a way not defeating the purpose of Heroes' Ascent

[supaet]

if the assumed statistical analyze is correct, what only can conclude perhaps is players who want to play with hero in HA is less than players who only want to play without heroes..... holding other factors constant....when comparing 6:6 with heroes, and 6:6 without heroes

as the statistical analyze is based on an assumption, the assumption can always be refuted

also noted the factor that, the the history of HA has been based on without Heroes is longer than with heroes.... player based without heroes maybe have already adapted to the environment, player base build up as time goes... and it seems like asking a doctor to change to a lawyer...(occupational immobility)


I think you made a huge mistake. HA with hero is ok if it's ONLY with heroes, and NO FULL human team are allowed. HA with heroes = 6 human team + heroway. I don't know how many time I have to say it, forcing a heroway to play against a full human team or vice versa is NOT RIGHT, UNFAIR, and GAME BREAKING. If you have a full team of humans, do you really want to play against a team with one human and 5 AI? would you want to? I don't want to enter HA and wait for my luck to give me a full human team so I can enjoy my game.

For those who run heroway, is it really enjoyable to play against 6 human with the 5 ai's you have? can't you see that's ruining the game for others? Why cant people play fair? why cant heroway play only against heroway. Think about it, HA really the hero's battle now. Was that ANET's intend? I'm done here, I hope anet fix this asap. Stop arguing heroway is good, heroway is good by itself, heroway is not good when it exist in an enviroment where full human team can exist. There is NO REASON to put two game mode and matching up two teams with DIFFERENT structure. AGAIN, if you're supporting heroway, it means you feel that 6 human vs 1 human +5 AI is great for this game. If you do, not much more I can say.


Also, more differentiation will result lessor people in a general stream

like...anet is differentiating pvp into so much type of arena..

certainly players play within a type arena will develop the skill according to the type of arena...

a sudden differentiation will result separation of people in a general stream...and creating more different purpose for different stream

just like we had HA without alliance battle, jade quarry/ fort aspenwoods, and heros arena, etc

there perhaps more players in HA at that time, after

we have HA, alliance battle. Jade quarry/fort aspenwoods, and heroes arena.

players are just being diverted and differentiated to these other arena....

and a player cannot at the same time play in HA and Jade Quarry or other arena...

then, amount of players is harder to concentrate in one stream...

if you want more people in one area.. is combining the area together, and not separating them.. in a way not defeating the purpose of Heroes' Ascent

combining ha and hero's battle to bring more people to play HA, brilliant. see how great it's working now.

[Lursey]

I think you made a huge mistake. HA with hero is ok if it's ONLY with heroes, and NO FULL human team are allowed. HA with heroes = 6 human team + heroway. I don't know how many time I have to say it, forcing a heroway to play against a full human team or vice versa is NOT RIGHT, UNFAIR, and GAME BREAKING. If you have a full team of humans, do you really want to play against a team with one human and 5 AI? would you want to? I don't want to enter HA and wait for my luck to give me a full human team so I can enjoy my game.

For those who run heroway, is it really enjoyable to play against 6 human with the 5 ai's you have? can't you see that's ruining the game for others? Why cant people play fair? why cant heroway play only against heroway. Think about it, HA really the hero's battle now. Was that ANET's intend? I'm done here, I hope anet fix this asap. Stop arguing heroway is good, heroway is good by itself, heroway is not good when it exist in an enviroment where full human team can exist. There is NO REASON to put two game mode and matching up two teams with DIFFERENT structure. AGAIN, if you're supporting heroway, it means you feel that 6 human vs 1 human +5 AI is great for this game. If you do, not much more I can say.



I understand you are expressing your opinion on how you feel about "heroway".. but that does not solve problem....

what if there are actually people enjoying "heroway"?


combining ha and hero's battle to bring more people to play HA, brilliant. see how great it's working now.


but you have to qualify it to " not defeating the purpose of Heroes' Ascent"

[Raven Flameheart]

Forcing monks to bring Mantra of Flame, and using it at least every other match, if not every, makes complexity sound pretty bad.

And how exactly is this relating to heroes? If you rid HA of heroes, you'd just end up with HA flooded with human SF users.

The main problem is everyone's assuming all low rank players are the same. I'm Rank 0, and every time I've got a group (and it takes a long time), the type of groups I get is almost certain to have a leaver, someone who's clearly not brought a build they have any idea how to play, or someone who's just there to "see what it's like". The people who "deserve" to be rank 0 block it off for those that are just starting, but have a clue.

And for those that say heroway teaches nothing, it teaches map layout, map strategies, and lets low rankers group with the majority of players who CAN teach. Other stuff, like following calls, working as a team, communicating well etc can be learnt elsewhere.

[Lursey]

And how exactly is this relating to heroes? If you rid HA of heroes, you'd just end up with HA flooded with human SF users.

The main problem is everyone's assuming all low rank players are the same. I'm Rank 0, and every time I've got a group (and it takes a long time), the type of groups I get is almost certain to have a leaver, someone who's clearly not brought a build they have any idea how to play, or someone who's just there to "see what it's like". The people who "deserve" to be rank 0 block it off for those that are just starting, but have a clue.

And for those that say heroway teaches nothing, it teaches map layout, map strategies, and lets low rankers group with the majority of players who CAN teach. Other stuff, like following calls, working as a team, communicating well etc can be learnt elsewhere.

I agree....Hero is just the tape strip covering a scar, a scar won't disappear if you don't cut it away.

like applying heroes to the era of iway .... wouldn't people for example will just use hero warrior instead of human warrior...... and to say, when facing a hero iway team, hero is too strong in iway build, and taking away fun, or we can't find a team so we have to form hero iway?
?
.. or is it actually, the build iway or rank/human party system have problem?

[supaet]

I understand you are expressing your opinion on how you feel about "heroway".. but that does not solve problem....

what if there are actually people enjoying "heroway"?

People enjoying heroway are enjoying at the expense of those who don't. There is a hero's battle where everyone is heroway. All I'm saying is that heroway and full human team should not co-exist in the same arena. Those who enjoy heroway don't care what their fighting against. But those who enjoy pvp do.

I just don't get what "problem" you're trying to solve, please don't bring any rank discussion to this thread, enough of that already. Stop saying getting rid of heroway will not solve the problem of HA. I know that. Heroway is the problem of this thread. Please read the first post and keep it on topic.

[supaet]

And how exactly is this relating to heroes? If you rid HA of heroes, you'd just end up with HA flooded with human SF users.

The main problem is everyone's assuming all low rank players are the same. I'm Rank 0, and every time I've got a group (and it takes a long time), the type of groups I get is almost certain to have a leaver, someone who's clearly not brought a build they have any idea how to play, or someone who's just there to "see what it's like". The people who "deserve" to be rank 0 block it off for those that are just starting, but have a clue.

And for those that say heroway teaches nothing, it teaches map layout, map strategies, and lets low rankers group with the majority of players who CAN teach. Other stuff, like following calls, working as a team, communicating well etc can be learnt elsewhere.

How long it takes you to be rank 1? you DESERVE TO BE RANK0 for not willing to work with other rank0's. When you're rank 0 you have NO CLUE. Oh yah, you're the leet rank 0 that's better than other rank 0 huh. Come on, grow up. Other things learn else where? where? I want to go play there now. Map strategies? sure, two heroway gank a full human team. That's strategy. I don't want to fight someone who is playing a different game. Why would you want to do that?

[Wuzzman]

17 pages of garbage and I wonder why that is so? I wonder where were all these "defenders of HA and all its righteousness" when the average life span of a pug group is 1 run, when forming a competent team took at least an hour, when fotm after fotm that no one wanted to play was the only thing premitted in ha for months, when new players would have to hope to god that out of the 1000+ players in Ha someone with experience would be nice enough to let him in his group and show him how to play(that often didn't happen). No I think they was busy shutting their mouths. They figured that endless pugging with people you wouldn't put in your friends list would be the solution to everything. And yes those with "experience"(can't say the R word might tick a few people off) was in perfect grounds to completely ignore and disrepect anyone they consider below them and yes even the fame farmers were given the "privileage" to do so. And hero way is a problem? Anti-social tendencies have been around for a very long time, every seen what happens to the person who gets invited to a r-group who can't emote?

[thedrjay]

wuzzman, your dire predictions and doomsday predictions seem like nonsense. Most defenders of HA have already left HA or GW as a whole, as the environment has been completely destroyed.

Explain to me again why it is that those that have earned their rank are supposed to teach those that do not have it?

Explain to me why the top guilds that have earned their spot on the ladder are supposed to teach those that are below them on the ladder?

[slakt]

Wuzzman, competative players (and yes, HA used to be a competative arena) don't play to help new players, they play to win. I don't see War Machine being nice and picking up random newbies from RA when they're playing championships.

And please realize that, even if you yourself didn't see that side of it, HA was more than clamorous jerks flaming low ranked players and pugs disbanding after loosing to IWAY in the Underworld. After plowing trough the first maps of FOTM's, you would, believe it or not, have great fights against friend list teams, guilds and sometimes high rank pugs. This was what people liked about HA, and this is what is gone.

[Lursey]

no.. is not about better player has to teach the one who is not better..

is about the problem "why people think they are better?"...."better"<---is very subjective....therefore no one should mention what is better than what..and live with what is existing.

------illustration----
it seems to me, at this stage, AIs are better than human,

and the human is arguing AIs are not better than them

just like non-experienced player are saying they are more experience than experienced players

------
and how is putting AI there makes the game non-competitive?
because they can interrupt, and do boring job better than human?

and is it because human who can't interrupt or do boring job, so they can't live with the AI that can do all these..?

then how is it different from a newbie can't live with an experienced player?

[supaet]

no.. is not about better player has to teach the one who is not better..

is about the problem "why people think they are better?"...."better"<---is very subjective....therefore no one should mention what is better than what..and live with what is existing.

------illustration----
it seems to me, at this stage, AIs are better than human,

and the human is arguing AIs are not better than them

just non-experienced player are saying they are more experience than experienced players

------
and how is putting AI there makes the game non-competitive?
because they can interrupt, and do boring job better than human?

and is it because human who can't interrupt or do boring job, so they can't live with the AI that can do all these..?

then how is it different from a newbie can't live with an experienced player?

Look, if newbies don't think people with high rank are better, they won't complain that higher rank groups don't take them. Why they want to get into a higher rank group? why? I just hate those people who thinks that the fact they cannot find group is high rank people's problem. No it's NOT, it's your OWN problem. If you think you're good at rank 0, why the HELL you want to join a R9 group?

Heroes are not better, they're just DIFFERENT. using hero has both advantages and disadvantages. But in pvp is all about balance, there is NO REASON for those advantages and disadvantages to exist at the first place. AI making HA uncompetitive is because THEY ARE DIFFERENT!, they are AI, not HUMAN. There is NO REASON for me to group with 5 other HUMAN to fight 1 human and 5 AI. NOt because they're hard, not because they're too easy. It's because they are NOT HUMAN. I will glad play heroway against them if I'm using heroway too. But when I took my time to gather 5 other HUMAN players, we EXPECT 6v6 HUMAN competition, is that too much to ask for?

[Lursey]

People enjoying heroway are enjoying at the expense of those who don't. There is a hero's battle where everyone is heroway. All I'm saying is that heroway and full human team should not co-exist in the same arena. Those who enjoy heroway don't care what their fighting against. But those who enjoy pvp do.

I just don't get what "problem" you're trying to solve, please don't bring any rank discussion to this thread, enough of that already. Stop saying getting rid of heroway will not solve the problem of HA. I know that. Heroway is the problem of this thread. Please read the first post and keep it on topic.


you are actually saying the problem yourself, things with different knowledge level should not play within the same environment....

A) human and AI -- different knowledge level
B) newbie and experienced -- different knowledge level

and why is B) is allowed, but not A)?

[supaet]

you are actually saying the problem yourself, things with different knowledge level should not play within the same environment....

A) human and AI -- different knowledge level
B) newbie and experienced -- different knowledge level

and why is B) is allowed, but not A)?

1. Newbie can become experienced sinc they're both human, human cannot become AI, and the difference between human and AI is NOT different knowledge level.

2. Even if your argument is valid, let me give you an example

1) This world has a problem, it's call 1
2) This world has another problem, it's call 2
X) This world has another problem, it's call X
Since A exists, and not being addressed, we should CREATE and JUSTIFY every problem that so such that as long as 1 is not solved, all other problems should not be solved.

Is that right?

You can say different rank level play in the same enviroment is a problem, i'm not arguing with you on that one. But that does not mean you can create a new problem just because there was already a problem. You don't try to solve a problem by creating another. Even if you're not being caught for running a stop sign does not mean you could go rob a bank.

[Motto]

17 pages of garbage and I wonder why that is so? I wonder where were all these "defenders of HA and all its righteousness" when the average life span of a pug group is 1 run, when forming a competent team took at least an hour, when fotm after fotm that no one wanted to play was the only thing premitted in ha for months, when new players would have to hope to god that out of the 1000+ players in Ha someone with experience would be nice enough to let him in his group and show him how to play(that often didn't happen). No I think they was busy shutting their mouths. They figured that endless pugging with people you wouldn't put in your friends list would be the solution to everything. And yes those with "experience"(can't say the R word might tick a few people off) was in perfect grounds to completely ignore and disrepect anyone they consider below them and yes even the fame farmers were given the "privileage" to do so. And hero way is a problem?
I'm sorry that you think someone has to show you how to play. I never had anyone show me how to play, I learned through PuGs that disbanded after 1 run and through teams that took hours to get started. Whenever I went into HA I always made sure I had at least 3 hours and I never quit a team that was still willing to play.

Hero's are quick fixes, they don't teach you much beyond map layout and that simply isn't good enough. They don't teach you how to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, when to push the other team, how to body block, etc.

Anti-social tendencies have been around for a very long time, every seen what happens to the person who gets invited to a r-group who can't emote?
Why are you not telling the truth to a group that you invite yourself to? If they are advertising for a certain rank whisper the leader that you are not there yet, but can play the character they want. If you get no response, fine, no skin off your nose. If you do, great! As long as you are open and honest with the people you are playing with chances are you will learn a few things indirectly, and/or vice versa.

[Lursey]

1. Newbie can become experienced sinc they're both human, human cannot become AI, and the difference between human and AI is NOT different knowledge level.

2. Even if your argument is valid, let me give you an example

1) This world has a problem, it's call 1
2) This world has another problem, it's call 2
X) This world has another problem, it's call X
Since A exists, and not being addressed, we should CREATE and JUSTIFY every problem that so such that as long as 1 is not solved, all other problems should not be solved.

Is that right?

You can say different rank level play in the same enviroment is a problem, i'm not arguing with you on that one. But that does not mean you can create a new problem just because there was already a problem. You don't try to solve a problem by creating another. Even if you're not being caught for running a stop sign does not mean you could go rob a bank.


I agreed on the point that, 1 problem still need to justify, if other problems are existing,

but what is the problem of heroes, if there is no problem with different knowledge level play in the same environment?




Hero's are quick fixes, they don't teach you much beyond map layout and that simply isn't good enough. They don't teach you how to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, when to push the other team, how to body block, etc.




to qualify a bit, they can't teach you to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, and when to push the other team, how to body block, etc """"with human""""...

but

they can teach you to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, and when to push the other team, how to body block, etc """"with AI""""


nonetheless, there is no one can teach you anything, you have to learn it by yourself, imagine, when the first altar map played by human ever, who teaches those human to play? is through with or without discussion among themselves and create methodology... no one teaches them how to play the first altar map, .... is themselves...


discussion with AI is not in reality at this stage viable, but human can still discuss with other human, or find out themselves how to best to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, and when to push the other team, how to body block, etc """"with AI""""

Heroes are just object, these objects can be used in many ways,
--------------------
a) they can be used to help people to get into group easier to start a game

bad use
-1 human bring 5 AI to ruin the joyfulness of a group with 6 humans
(also can happen in the world of only human)

good use
- experience players can use hero to replace an offline friend. so a group can start earlier, time is not wasted.
(won't happen in the world of only human)

controversial use
-newbie bring them to start game easier
(cause there is argument about player should look for group among their same knowledge level, newbie(human) is different knowledge level with (AI) )


-----------------

B) they can be used to make the environment more dynamic

bad use
-making gimmicks build, like 1 human afker, + 4 npc monks and 1 interrupt
(can also happen in human world)

good use
- making build suitable for heroes controlling to achieve the purpose of hoh, like 1 human, and balanced NPC
(won't happen in human world)

controversial use
- newbie using AI to gain experience

(argument because newbie along with 5 experienced players, should not gain experience disproportional to their skill level) and
(some experience can actually earned)
---------------------

however
they can't be used to let human fight with human

(which is the same argument from the other side, saying
only human game, will not allow human with heroes to fight with human.)

[Motto]

to qualify a bit, they can't't teach you to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, and when to push the other team, how to body block, etc """"with human""""... but can teach you to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, and when to push the other team, how to body block, etc """"with AI""""
Ah yes, back to human players. The less human players that you have on a team, the more experienced you want them to be. You have to make up for the mistakes the Hero's make by telling them where to go, what skills to use and when. For all intents and purposes a Heroway team has to be more experienced than the human teams in order to get anywhere.

Think of it this way, you don't want to play with people in HA for one reason or another, it really doesn't matter. So you decide to run Heroway, do you want to A) bring along a guildie or friend to help, or B) take a random person that you don't know just for the sake of teaching them.

Hero's have the potential to be a great teaching tool, however at this point in the game they are simply being abused by people who do not want to play with others.

(which is the same argument from the other side, saying only human game, will not allow human with heroes to fight with human.)
If you had read my original post in this thread, I suggested that there be a minimum human limit of 3 before a group can enter Hero's Ascent. I am not 100% against Hero's, just the abuse of Hero's.

[supaet]

I agreed on the point that, 1 problem still need to justify, if other problems are existing,

but what is the problem of heroes, if there is no problem with different knowledge level play in the same environment?

OMG, how many times i have to repeat myself. The problem with heroes is 5 ai + one human fighting 6 human. It's unfair for either team ok.

Hero has nothing to do with knowledge level play. I'm not saying there is no problem with different experience level playing in the same enviroment, but that's another thread. Please do not discuss rank problem anymore. and please do not use rank discrimination to argue. Heroway was never meant to be a fix for rank discrimination, if you want to argue that it is, I don't know what to say, but that does not belong in this thread.

I'm so tired of the "since you guys don't take me into your teams, we use heroway to ruin your game" or the "Heroway is not the problem, fix another problem such as rank problem of ha first"

Look, if heroway is not the problem, there will not be enough people to get Gaile to create this thread for us to discuss. So heroway IS A PROBLEM. please keep your discussion to HUMAN vs AI.

Just to be clear, my rank is lower than you think, i'm a casual HA player. Because if i'm a hardcore, i would be playing gvg already. 2-3 npc is fine if the team wishes, but 1 human + 5 AI is outrageous.

[Lursey]

OMG, how many times i have to repeat myself. The problem with heroes is 5 ai + one human fighting 6 human. It's unfair for either team ok.

Hero has nothing to do with knowledge level play. I'm not saying there is no problem with different experience level playing in the same enviroment, but that's another thread. Please do not discuss rank problem anymore. and please do not use rank discrimination to argue. Heroway was never meant to be a fix for rank discrimination, if you want to argue that it is, I don't know what to say, but that does not belong in this thread.

I'm so tired of the "since you guys don't take me into your teams, we use heroway to ruin your game" or the "Heroway is not the problem, fix another problem such as rank problem of ha first"

Look, if heroway is not the problem, there will not be enough people to get Gaile to create this thread for us to discuss. So heroway IS A PROBLEM. please keep your discussion to HUMAN vs AI.

Just to be clear, my rank is lower than you think, i'm a casual HA player. Because if i'm a hardcore, i would be playing gvg already. 2-3 npc is fine if the team wishes, but 1 human + 5 AI is outrageous.


perhaps you may have changed your position....I have always been arguing against a complete wipe out of heroes....

and I guess, you mean unfair is the time spend on making a group of 1 non-quality players with 5 quality human compare with 1 non-quality players with 5 quality assured AI.

if the time spend is faired for making group for both total human and total AI..
is 1 human with 5 AI acceptable?

note this post

BINGO, playing with hero is just ANOTHER MODE of playing. why should pvpers have to play with ANOTHER MODE of playing when they enter ha to pvp? it's pvp, not pvai. The another mode of playing is heroe's battle. In any arena, there should be only one mode, either all the teams are heroway or all the teams are human. It is unfair force a full team of human to fight a heroway because they did not intend to do that when they enter HA.

[ijack]

My opinon:

Having Hero change the nature of HOH.

I am one of the guys who can't get into HOH often because I am only rank 4. I used to be in a decent guild and did learn a lot about HOH, hold hall a few times. Now, I cannot find a competitive team to join for HOH anymore because of my rank.

But I see that is no excuse that I should bring 5 hencie to make myself competitive in HOH. I once enjoy HOH before and I appreciate it as it was, even though I can't join it now, to a successful degree.

It does it frustrating but I would live over it. I don't have that much time to build up the network and enjoy other casual play now.

HOH is a unique place in guildwar that make it successful in one of the many aspects, and it should not be changed.

If Anet want a Heroway arena then make one, well they have but it's just not good enough.

[supaet]

perhaps you may have changed your position....I have always been arguing against a complete wipe out of heroes....

and I guess, you mean unfair is the time spend on making a group of 1 non-quality players with 5 quality human compare with 1 non-quality players with 5 quality assured AI.

if the time spend is faired for making group for both total human and total AI..
is 1 human with 5 AI acceptable?

note this post

no, i think you misunderstood me...anyways, tired of arguing already, just see what anet do. but i hope they do it sooner rather than later.

[Lursey]

no, i think you misunderstood me...anyways, tired of arguing already, just see what anet do. but i hope they do it sooner rather than later.


if 1 hero is allow, there is no reason to limit the number of heroes...

[Lursey]

more people? nice joke....
go take a look today at HA. it's saturday night and there are 3 international districts. the third is half empty. on a regular saturday night before the 6v6 **** and before the heroway, there were 5 international dists and id1 was full when trying to get there.

everything proves that heroes were a bad idea and so was 6v6. 6v6 made HA population to go down and heroes killed it.


I can't see how anyone who ever stepped foot in HA before the change could actually think this. There are less people in the districts now, and ID1 and 2 are never full anymore. Just a month or two ago you would have trouble getting into ID1 or 2, now ID1 loads up automatically when choosing internetional districts.

There are less people playing now, due to many people quitting because of the 6v6 and heroway garbage.


if you want a district full of people.. you would rather want to go to a chatroom instead of Heroes Ascent,

how many players are actually "playing" in Heroes' Ascent does not determined by the number of district, is determined by the number of real players "playing matches"..

number of players in district only can determine, the players are either LFG, chatting, spamming, and AFK within the HA district.....

Conversely...the great number of district may indicate more actual players are spending time on LFG than playing....

[B Ephekt]

Your point doesn't hold any weight when you consider that even guild and friends list groups have to load the districts before entering. Fewer districts, less people in the districts and less PUGs all = less people playing. Plain and simple. Furthermore, skips happen more now than ever before, and 75% of the teams you fight have less than 3 humans in them. There are definitely less people playing now (or less people attempting to play, since you feel the need to be pedantic) than at any point in the past year.

[Wuzzman]

Look, if newbies don't think people with high rank are better, they won't complain that higher rank groups don't take them. Why they want to get into a higher rank group? why? I just hate those people who thinks that the fact they cannot find group is high rank people's problem. No it's NOT, it's your OWN problem. If you think you're good at rank 0, why the HELL you want to join a R9 group?

Heroes are not better, they're just DIFFERENT. using hero has both advantages and disadvantages. But in pvp is all about balance, there is NO REASON for those advantages and disadvantages to exist at the first place. AI making HA uncompetitive is because THEY ARE DIFFERENT!, they are AI, not HUMAN. There is NO REASON for me to group with 5 other HUMAN to fight 1 human and 5 AI. NOt because they're hard, not because they're too easy. It's because they are NOT HUMAN. I will glad play heroway against them if I'm using heroway too. But when I took my time to gather 5 other HUMAN players, we EXPECT 6v6 HUMAN competition, is that too much to ask for?

So the same goes vice-versa? If those who use heroway in ha cared less if you think heroway is an abomination and you don't care if they ever find a competent group in a reasonable time then what real right you have to take his hero'es away when you still don't care if he gets to play the game or not?

And note there was no real defenders of HA just a bunch of people who simply cared less if the person next to him was lfg for an hour.


I'm sorry that you think someone has to show you how to play. I never had anyone show me how to play, I learned through PuGs that disbanded after 1 run and through teams that took hours to get started. Whenever I went into HA I always made sure I had at least 3 hours and I never quit a team that was still willing to play.

Hero's are quick fixes, they don't teach you much beyond map layout and that simply isn't good enough. They don't teach you how to kick a holding team off an altar, or how to run relics, or when to back off, when to push the other team, how to body block, etc.

Why are you not telling the truth to a group that you invite yourself to? If they are advertising for a certain rank whisper the leader that you are not there yet, but can play the character they want. If you get no response, fine, no skin off your nose. If you do, great! As long as you are open and honest with the people you are playing with chances are you will learn a few things indirectly, and/or vice versa.


Hmm....I never got a grand tour of ha...just 1 person I could count of grouping with(only 6 more random players to go woot). At best after several pugs..and a whole lot of TA experience...I became some what respected, among friends anyway. Anyway, could you explain what Iway tought the majority of players in Ha? Bspike? Or wait rpsike was even more sophistacted. Do you know the even simpler builds being run now by all human teams? Searing flames, Rao holding builds with dual paragons, 1 RaO thumper, 2 monks. 1 searing flames ele or 1 necro or 1 ranger your pick. They don't even need vent for those builds. Bspike and Rspike only needed vent for timing of the spike, one kid on vent saying "1,2,3" wow the tactics. The best build for learning(balance) has been shot to hell, everyone wants to spam this, spike that, hold this and that won't change in with or without heroes. Now, what will happen most likely if heroes are taken out of HA is your going to see a whole lot more of those Sear flame groups and RaO holding builds. Welcome to the new metagame hope you don't complain you have been warned.

[Parker Bsb]

Several of you have been double posting - you have a 1 hr limit to edit your posts please use it.

http://forums.gwonline.net/rules/

[Motto]

Hmm....I never got a grand tour of ha...just 1 person I could count of grouping with(only 6 more random players to go woot). At best after several pugs..and a whole lot of TA experience...I became some what respected, among friends anyway.
Congrats, you are one person closer to forming a group in HA, now what about guildies? Anyone there you can ask? What about some of your TA friends? Do they want to learn HA as well? Just because you met someone in a different arena does not mean that they don't or can't play others.

Anyway, could you explain what Iway tought the majority of players in Ha? Bspike? Or wait rpsike was even more sophistacted. Do you know the even simpler builds being run now by all human teams? Searing flames, Rao holding builds with dual paragons, 1 RaO thumper, 2 monks. 1 searing flames ele or 1 necro or 1 ranger your pick. They don't even need vent for those builds. Bspike and Rspike only needed vent for timing of the spike, one kid on vent saying "1,2,3" wow the tactics.
I have no idea what IWAY has taught people, I never played it. As for spike teams, spiking is a very important skill either for killing a ghostly on an altar, or for taking out that one enemy that is screwing up your team. RaO holding teams teach you how to hold.
On the contrary, vent is a very important tool for any team, how else will you let your teammates know that the other team is trapping up a relic you need to pick up so you need your RC monk. There are lots of instances that vent has saved my teammates and I.

The best build for learning(balance) has been shot to hell, everyone wants to spam this, spike that, hold this and that won't change in with or without heroes.
True, people are lazy by nature, but if you take two equally experienced teams, one balanced and one a gimmick build, 75% of the time balanced will win. Just because you see more people playing FotM or Gimmick builds does not mean it is better.

Now, what will happen most likely if heroes are taken out of HA is your going to see a whole lot more of those Sear flame groups and RaO holding builds. Welcome to the new metagame hope you don't complain you have been warned.
Great! As long as there are people playing on the other side, I don't mind what the metagame pulls out of its hat. People can learn, and react unexpectedly, that is what makes it fun to play against them. Hero's can't do either, they are inherently predictable and never learn from their mistakes.

[Lursey]

Your point doesn't hold any weight when you consider that even guild and friends list groups have to load the districts before entering. Fewer districts, less people in the districts and less PUGs all = less people playing. Plain and simple. Furthermore, skips happen more now than ever before, and 75% of the teams you fight have less than 3 humans in them. There are definitely less people playing now (or less people attempting to play, since you feel the need to be pedantic) than at any point in the past year.


--------------
ok...once if we have a full team...and called all people.. do we need to stand in HA district for 1 hour and waiting for people to come and set skill etc?..
there is only a need for guild or friend list groups..to stay in HA when they are picking up PUG...which guildgroup and friendlist do not have to do that..

the district in HA will eventually become totally a place for PUG with human.....when AI is being introduced....

before without hero it was also a total PUG place..but including the people who wants to play hero... can't play with hero so they have to LFG with human....these are the people who fills up the district...

the one who wants to be picked up by human are always in HA district..therefore they LFG...

from that.. you can't conclude.. whether "people like to play with AI" is more or less than "people like to play with human" before....

-------------

what we are trying to find out here is not to reduce complexity of HA...(just try to think about reducing 8 players team to 6 players team..to the extreme...HA become a dice rolling game to determine win or lose.....)

if we want more fun....is to increase complexity....and reduce abuse...

abuse <---is subjective..

say a person used sleeping pills to murder someone..----- in his subjectivity..it may not be wrong.... but in the whole community..or what the majority thinks using sleeping pills to murder someone is wrong.. so we have criminal laws in a democratic society

we can't say sleeping pills can be abused...so sleeping pills should not be developed and put into use in a way that what majority of the community thinks is "ok" ...what we should do is to regulate the "abuse"

similar to abortion, sex change, and homosexualtiy.

just like.... heroes can be abused....we can't just simply say to eliminate them...but to regulate them.....

-------
how to regulate? depends on what type of society we are.....
a) democratic ? ... by superficial voting
b) communistic? .... by central dictating government...

(anet have freedom to choose either a) or b) and

what anet is doing is trying to look at what the people think and regulate heroes.....(doesn't say majority, totality, themselves, or minority)
------
should we eliminate sleeping pills, abortion, sex change, homosexuality, and AI? .....I guess in modern world.. the answer should be no...

but how much should we limit to?
----------

sometimes a problem can be solved directly and indirectly
hero abuse, --- the most direct method is to eliminate hero...
but this should be put to the very very bottom of the list..

indirectly method.. is what I have been trying to do....
solving the underlying problem.... and trying to figure out what type and what kind of heroes abuse there is

-------
to this point ---indirectly -----what we can see more clear.. is the HA PUG for human only is not as many as many people think
being magnified by HA becoming a sole place for human pug....

HA PUG for human only has always been a problem...
by cutting heroes does not solve it..

--------
problems then created by heroes introduction is....the realization of time spend for looking for Human PUG is far more than human + AI group....

this is also not a problem by cutting heroes

a computer is lagging, we don't reduce the other computer speed for synchronization.....but to try to increase the speed of the lagging computer....

so in hero sense, we should make methods to encourage Human PUG...if the team making speed is lagging behind human AI group

-------
another problem magnified will be like.. as someone may have said...the unfair skill level between heroes and human

isn't this has always been the problem when a group of 5 experienced players and 1 non-experienced player playing against 6 mid-experienced players?

this is not just a hero problem?

if there is something really a human can't biologically catch up with the hero..
we then fine tune the hero to the level that is biologically matching human...

say a hero can heal 72 hours in a row, a human perhaps may only last 72 mins
this problem can be addressed....
---------

Great! As long as there are people playing on the other side, I don't mind what the metagame pulls out of its hat. People can learn, and react unexpectedly, that is what makes it fun to play against them. Hero's can't do either, they are inherently predictable and never learn from their mistakes.

is true that at this stage our hero "does not learn from their mistakes, and are inherently predictable"...therefore anet allows a human mind to control them...

the problem arise when the human is not controlling them at all

------

and sorry.. if I have doubled posted, I am just not familiar with the rules.. and idea came up... thanks for helping me to combine the post....

-----

[Emosh]

Remove the limit on number of heroes and let us micromanage as many of those critters as we want!

Hate waiting for people to get ready, can always go in for a few fights with my premade templates and henches -while- the rest of the guys are still waiting for that last person to show up and set his skills.

More heroes, otherwise you'll be nerfing the main feature of nightfall.

[B Ephekt]

--------------
I'm not really sure why you needed to post half a page of text that didn't even address the FACT that less people are playing (which was my entire point). Did you misunderstand my post? Perhaps I should use more ellipses... ... ...

What I did manage to understand from your post was that heros aren't a problem... right?

Well, they're not THE problem but they certainly play a part. The main issue is the format itself; 3 of the 8 maps are alters, which encourage ultra-defensive play. This has always made for fotm holding builds - previously they were spikes, now they're ridiculous paragon builds. This mechanic discourages balanced play by making balanced builds less effective in the ultimate goal of tombs - to cap and hold an alter.

This is further compounded by the fact that tombs currently has only 3 annihilation maps. This is an advantage to holding builds since they can almost bet on fighting bad teams on these maps, or simply outlasting them.

Moreover, the entire capping mechanic is broken. A ghost cap be denied of energy, body blocked or interrupted for well over 2 minutes. This allows teams who shouldn't rightfully win to do so by preventing another team from capping. The fact that you can still "hold" halls after your ghost is dead is just ridiculous.

So, we have a heavy focus on maps that encourage defensive play and an inherent disadvantage to balanced builds. This, coupled with the fact that 6 man teams simply can't bring the utility or counters needed to be truly flexible, makes winning more and more about build than skill. Tombs is now build wars, not guild wars.

Now, you introduce heros into an already dieing metagame, and it completely destroys any remaining hope the arena had for seeing some competitive play, much less supporting it.

So, while heros may not be the main problem, they were the kick to the arena while it was already down. 6v6 may, unfortunately, be here to stay, and that alone will keep many players out, but there’s absolutely no reason to allow tombs to continue degenerating in its current, uncompetitive, pve-like state.

And YES, there are less people playing now. 90% of my friends list, as well as most of my guild and alliance, want nothing to do with tombs now. The same holds true for almost every tombs player I know. Tombs is currently a joke as far as competition goes, and simply isn't fun anymore.



If your mass of dots and fragments was meant to address something else, then I apologize, but that's all I could manage to decipher.

[Lursey]

I'm not really sure why you needed to post half a page of text that didn't even address the FACT that less people are playing (which was my entire point). Did you misunderstand my post? Perhaps I should use more ellipses... ... ...

no..because I am not to address whether there is less or more people playing....number of people playing in HA is affected by many factors, and you may have identified some of them.

and I can't tell you whether there are actually more or less joyful "new HA" player playing without empirical statistic ...


What I did manage to understand from your post was that heros aren't a problem, right?

having heroes in the game is not a problem, the problem is how people use the heroes, and other inherent AI problem......

but not simply because of these problems so we don't want to increase the game complexity by putting hero.. instead to address all these problems...
since heroes in itself also have their benefit.

is like you have a dog that doesn't bark.. won't make the dog a bad companion


Well, they're not THE problem but they certainly play a part. The main issue is the format itself; 3 of the 8 maps are alters, which encourage ultra-defensive play. This has always made for fotm holding builds - previously they were spikes, now they're ridiculous paragon builds. This mechanic discourages balanced play by making balanced builds less effective in the ultimate goal of tombs - to cap and hold an alter.

This is further compounded by the fact that tombs currently has only 3 annihilation maps. This is an advantage to holding builds since they can almost bet on fighting bad teams on these maps, or simply outlasting them.

Moreover, the entire capping mechanic is broken. A ghost cap be denied of energy, body blocked or interrupted for well over 2 minutes. This allows teams who shouldn't rightfully win to do so by preventing another team from capping. The fact that you can still "hold" halls after your ghost is dead is just ridiculous.

So, we have a heavy focus on maps that encourage defensive play and an inherent disadvantage to balanced builds. This, coupled with the fact that 6 man teams simply can't bring the utility or counters needed to be truly flexible, makes winning more and more about build than skill. Tombs is now build wars, not guild wars.

you may have here identified another flaw of the maps of Heroes' Ascent.
I previously have also noted map is a factor of HOH too--->try this reference


..

..but does fixing this will be good for the purpose of Heroes Ascent?...and if you can associate this flaw with hero.. then it will be more suitable under the topic of Heroes Ascent and Heroes..


Now, you introduce heroes into an already dieing metagame, and it completely destroys any remaining hope the arena had for seeing some competitive play, much less supporting it.

heroes at this stage have problem in itself...so we have to fine tune it...that's why we have this kind of post.....

just like a skill is too strong...we don't take it away...but re-balance it


So, while heros may not be the main problem, they were the kick to the arena while it was already down. 6v6 may, unfortunately, be here to stay, and that alone will keep many players out, but there’s absolutely no reason to allow tombs to continue degenerating in its current, uncompetitive, pve-like state.

just like the era of iway... but may not be as many as people are affected, and the problem of iway may not be at that time magnified by the introduction of heroes.....


It's a joke as far as competition goes, and simply isn't fun anymore.

if you are kind to competitiveness.. try to think of something that is not removing one of the aspect of current HA but to fine tune it...



If your mass of dots and fragments was meant to address something else, then I apologize, but that's all I could manage to decipher.

perhaps my explanation skills have problem.. it goes both ways...

by the way.. my dots and fragments are each segment of my idea

[B Ephekt]

having heroes in the game is not a problemI disagree. Any time you have such a large group of players saying heros have taken the fun out of HA, they become a problem. I can respect your opinion that heros are fine, but your opinion seems to be in the minority. This is certainly something Anet needs to take into account.


the problem is how people use the heroes, and other inherent AI problem......I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I haven't noticed any issues with the AI aside from them, well, being AI, rather than human players.

[Lursey]

I disagree. Any time you have such a large group of players saying heros have taken the fun out of HA, they become a problem. I can respect your opinion that heros are fine, but your opinion seems to be in the minority. This is certainly something Anet needs to take into account.

a large group or majority or minority... I am really reluctant to say is by way of a poll....but the sample of this poll at least should not be posted in a common area of a board.....

a large random sample by way of invitation may be feasible...(statistical reasoning)

but at this stage.. neither any of us can conclude majority or minority...

I may also say...the large size of population you refer to have so much time to discuss this issue, who are not the one actually enjoying the current HA....you think is large because they appear to be large....since the real large majority may be not wasting their time to discuss this matter, neglecting this thread, and enjoying the current HA ......

just like what we have when 8:8 change to 6:6....


I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I haven't noticed any issues with the AI aside from them, well, being AI, rather than human players.


AI is a general term...,more example is like.. a new computer is broken..you don't try to throw it away and use back paper and pencil.. but to fix it....

issues around AI should have a lot...and I quoted some from the previous thread...which is about

AI and human - biologically different...something AI capable..human will never be at this stage achieve... etc.....

------
some of this hero issue may be able to fix by but not letting them to move.. but purely a player is controlling 2+ characters...(but is this what people want? I don't know)

or may be setting a limited time the heroes will move automatically...after that limited time.. you have to re - command and give some input to the heroes again...etc...

I mean.. all these are just blurring the line..

but...this is just my abstract idea at large....

[Wuzzman]

Congrats, you are one person closer to forming a group in HA, now what about guildies? Anyone there you can ask? What about some of your TA friends? Do they want to learn HA as well? Just because you met someone in a different arena does not mean that they don't or can't play others.

I have no idea what IWAY has taught people, I never played it. As for spike teams, spiking is a very important skill either for killing a ghostly on an altar, or for taking out that one enemy that is screwing up your team. RaO holding teams teach you how to hold.
On the contrary, vent is a very important tool for any team, how else will you let your teammates know that the other team is trapping up a relic you need to pick up so you need your RC monk. There are lots of instances that vent has saved my teammates and I.

True, people are lazy by nature, but if you take two equally experienced teams, one balanced and one a gimmick build, 75% of the time balanced will win. Just because you see more people playing FotM or Gimmick builds does not mean it is better.

Great! As long as there are people playing on the other side, I don't mind what the metagame pulls out of its hat. People can learn, and react unexpectedly, that is what makes it fun to play against them. Hero's can't do either, they are inherently predictable and never learn from their mistakes.

I was in a pve guild at the time the only reason I joined because a friend from TA invited me. Also having friends and having friends who play at the same time that you do is 2 seperate things. People don't learn or adapt, they just grab the next new thing. That is all ha ever was. One hot off the observe mode build after another. I was in the minority, a person who was intent on doing balance builds(my idea of balance) and gathering players for nonfotm madness. And when did I say fotm builds are better. They are easier, you learn nothing really. What idiot doesn't know to put the ghostly hero on the alter and make sure he can stay there. What skill does it take to do so when you could go to sleep and you could hold the alter.

[Motto]

I was in a pve guild at the time the only reason I joined because a friend from TA invited me. Also having friends and having friends who play at the same time that you do is 2 seperate things. People don't learn or adapt, they just grab the next new thing. That is all ha ever was. One hot off the observe mode build after another.
That's the thing though, there is always a next new thing in Guild Wars, there is no constant, people have to keep innovating to keep ahead. It is true however that the majority of players would rather take the easy way out by copying a build. Personally I find that kind of sad, I really enjoy making up weird builds.

I was in the minority, a person who was intent on doing balance builds(my idea of balance) and gathering players for nonfotm madness. And when did I say fotm builds are better. They are easier, you learn nothing really. What idiot doesn't know to put the ghostly hero on the alter and make sure he can stay there. What skill does it take to do so when you could go to sleep and you could hold the alter.
When you are facing a good team, they try to bodyblock the other teams Ghostly, it isn't just a matter of putting him up there. You have to get him there first, and make sure he doesn't die. Now he has to capture the altar, if you can't pressure the players that interrupt your Ghostly he can't cap and you lose. If he does die, you need to coordinate with your teammates to interrupt the other Ghostly Hero's until the timer runs out or your Ghostly is resurrected.

But we seem to have gotten off track here. Hero's are the current FotM, just like Spirit Spamming, IWAY, VIMway, Orders Ranger Spike, Blood Spike etc. were. Most have fallen by the wayside because the game was changed to make it more balanced. Heroway is the latest incarnation, with a slight twist. Instead of a skill or skill combination being abused, it is the NPC's themselves.
To many people are taking Hero's and only Hero's. That, to me, suggests an imbalance and just like any skill imbalance I believe something needs to change.

[God Apprentice]

I'm not shooting down your opinion.

I'm shooting down the general incestuous, esoteric, elitist opinion of "keep the nubs out." Seriously...

I hope before they implement any discussion they at least wait a few weeks for people to slip up the ranks a bit so maybe they can get into some groups. I'm not pro-henchway, but its damn better than never playing HA. Given the two options... yeah.

You take the whole elitism thing a little too serious. Of course high rank people are going to want people of comparable rank, because they have experience. Why can't you make unranked/low ranked pugs? And do not give me no crap about 'they suck" because until you learnhow to play together of course your success rate won't be so good. Stop being lazy and using Heroes.




Fine the way it is, IMO. New players to HA always used to complain that it was impossible to find a team without rank. Now that's not as much of an issue. If you have rank, or play with a guild or friends, the hero population reduces the amount of map skips. More fame for everyone :wink:


That's why you form a little something we call unranked groups. I did it why can't you?




Two things about this that irk me.

1) you are rank 10... why should you care what other people do. obviously you can roll them with your skills.

2) these signing for friends crap... in another thread someone signed for the spearmen against heroway but i have seen and beaten spear running heroway.

There you go with your elitism again. You are the only one in here blatantly flaming people. You need to stop now.

Yes I have faced Spearman running Heros as well, granted that was one person. You cannot speak for the guild as a whole. Back in the day I enjoyed coming up against their Rit Spike





Sign for yourself... as yourself. Putting words in others mouths benefits no one...

Oh and if you want real accomplishment... play GvG. HA has never been an accomplishment for a long long time now. If your not having fun i can understand that. Thats a fair reason, but what of others fun, they paid as much as you for the game, but they can't play HA...

Yeah I heard Last Pride (the first guild to win GWC) got rolled one time when they did HA, gee wonder why?

Oh and exactly how long have you been playing HA? Besides GvG and HA are 2 different play styles, so don't compare them. In one you are banking on winning, the other even if you lose it does not affect your guild rating






Leave them in. They make HA more accessible to those who don't have rank or a network of friends (and the latter is usually attained after you get rank), and want to try it. They are not overpowered, people just have yet to adapt.

Not overpowered you say? Then please tell me why the Hero mesmer was able to interupt every interupt our human mesmer cast. Human players don't do that. As to the rank issue make unranked pugs we all did it, why can't you?




If you remove them, HA will go back to the elitists with rank denying the rest of us access, like it was before heroes. The way it is now gives access to everyone, regardless of rank. I would like to know the breakdown of ranks of those who complain about heros in these groups. I would not be surprised at all if the majority of complainers were ranked players, as those were always the ones shutting others out of HA before heros.

Wow? Don't you know how to make an unranked pug?






Best quote in regards to rank:

Whenever someone poses to me the elitist issue, I ask them to solve this dilemma:

Suppose that rank is meaningless. If this is true, then an unranked person should be able to gather unranked people and perform equally as well as the ranked people. As such, there should be no desire to enter ranked groups in the first place. The complaint is negated.

Suppose that rank is meaningful. If this is true, then why should it be wrong or surprising that the ranked exclude the unranked from teams? As such, there should be no opportunity to enter ranked groups in the first place and the complaint is negated.

If you can solve my dilemma, I'll take you seriously with regards to "elitism being a problem". I rather doubt you will though.




Again, you are not posting to the subject of this thread. The thread is for opinions regarding heros and HA, not about rank vs elitism, or you trying to bait me into a debate that has nothing to do with this thread. How about we get back to the subject. I stated my opinion and observation's on the thread's subject, if you do not like my opinion that's tough for you. State your opinion on the specific subject of this topic, and let's get back to the topic.


No you are avoiding the question, because you cannot answer.




such hostility... everyone seems to take this way too personally...

The reason we take it personal is because we had well fought, interesting matches sometimes against the best there was. Now there is no best because they all left.




This is really at the heart of the problem. Making it more accessible to the average player, but also keeping it competitive. What if there were 2 arenas, one would allow hench teams in order for players to experiment with builds and to gain experience, sort of a training and practice arena?

Yeah it's called Hero versus Hero battles.




I'm unranked because i dislike the brown nosing involved i getting into a pug that is even going anywhere. In general people think that rank makes them something special...

I have run with Rank 10's through a friend of a friend about a dozen times and its ok. I follow the general meta game, i know the maps, i just hate in general dealing with the bad people. If i felt like dealing with a bunch of childish people while they 'rage' i would go to work and help our claims department on the weekend.

A huge generalisation ill admit, which is different to my expirence in this forum which is that, most people here are friendly and all that good stuff... its just the sifting through the majority of power trippers to get to the good people is (in my opinion) a waste of my time. I play the game for fun not rank.

The only valid response i have heard is that this has made it fun for the Senior HA'ers. Thats a valid point... though whos fun is more important at what cost? There are so many angles to this and thats why there is a big debate.

I'm just standing up for people that have an avenue into something they never had before... whether they turn into HA champions or not i don't particularly care. Just that people that couldn't get in before actually now get a chance. I'm happy for them.

Somewhere in between is the balance... but surely seniors can let up a few months to let some others have a go for just a short while. Even if they aren't doing it concievably right.

Fighting Hero's has not made it more fun for us who played before 6 v 6 was introduced, and what do you mean they never had before? That's why you make unranked pugs and learn to play the builds, gaining experience until you are that good. Why do we who have been playing HA for a while have to keep repeating this same point to you over and over again:

/unrankedpugs



To all newbies who are running heroways now:

I know that you want fame, I know that you want to play in hoh with you have paid for.
However, playing with heroes is NOT the hoh you've paid for. Your so called 'elitist" plays for fun not for fame. You are not denied to play in hoh without heroes in anyway. You are denied in high rank groups because you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! face the FACT, READ IT AGAIN, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH! For example, can you just go play pro sport now without playing highschool/college sport first? Rank means experiences. If you don't have the experience, you will be in sucky pug groups and lose alot in the begining. BUt that is OK! we all went through the same process. There are a reason why that it only takes 180 to r3 and 1000 to r6. Please don't play for fame, play for fun. Playing with heroes gives you no experiences in team dynamics and communication. The PVP game that you PAID for is not the pvai mess you're doing right now. If you got some fame from heroway, good for you, please do not run it anymore, make groups yourself. And please be self-aware! your rank = your experiences in hoh. Please do not EXPECT to play with people who have higher rank than you, THEY ARE BETTER THAN YOU in hoh. And you can MESS THEM UP. Which creates pressure for you. That is no fun. I'm rank 6, I rather play with rank 3-6 people thank rank 9+ people. Why? If i'm the lowest rank in the group, i will have the highest pressure and get most of the blames. And yes, a rank 9 player is better than me in HOH. So please, stop farming fame with heroway. You're ruining the great pvp of guildwars for everyone, including yourself.

And think about this: Ok you get your rank 9 using Heroes with Searing Flames. You have unlocked all skills. You are standing around in HA one day with your rank 9 title out and someone asks you to monk....you will not be an experienced monk, because all you ever did was play with Ai, you also will not be able to do simple things like say "Backfire on 6" on vent because you would not have learned communication, and teamwork. Playing with Heros does not teach you how to pvp in GW. Besides you have never faced real competition, see:

Treacherous Empire
The Legend Of Pi
The Zaishen (who sadly do not exist anymore)
British Bulldogs
War Machine
The Notorious Luna
Rank Three Plus Pug (reformed as Slash Rank [DeeR]
Magic School Bus

Do I need to go on?



How do hero's grief? POh you mean by running holding builds... because hey... they have been around pissing us off longer than heroes.

Grinding and struggling for fame? The game has said from the on set that skill> time spent.

And how do you propose you are going to get any skill from running bot teams? Hmmm? Before you say "micro managing is teaching me" no it isn't. Try being a monk. Try it. Monk for real people.



why even the manuscript says so Heroes' Ascent is pvp arena/tournament.....it can't ever evolve into any another type of arena

Then answer this. Why did ANet waste it's time creating a Hero Versus Hero arena.




If I have an assumption that, even a skill changed and limited the number of heroes.....will FOTM disappear? I guess is no.what disappear is just the current FOTM.... there is always someone can think of something that is easy to play...and powerful...no matter how many skill changes there are....

if just on going addressing only the surface problem...what is the point of making an opinion? .. there are always some opinions that are opposes to someone's...I mean people have different values..

You people need to get it through your heads. Flavor of the moment builds will ALWAYS exist. ALWAYS.




And how exactly is this relating to heroes? If you rid HA of heroes, you'd just end up with HA flooded with human SF users.

The main problem is everyone's assuming all low rank players are the same. I'm Rank 0, and every time I've got a group (and it takes a long time), the type of groups I get is almost certain to have a leaver, someone who's clearly not brought a build they have any idea how to play, or someone who's just there to "see what it's like". The people who "deserve" to be rank 0 block it off for those that are just starting, but have a clue.

And for those that say heroway teaches nothing, it teaches map layout, map strategies, and lets low rankers group with the majority of players who CAN teach. Other stuff, like following calls, working as a team, communicating well etc can be learnt elsewhere.

Let's you team with players that can teach? What players? Oh and about not knowing the bar, ANet made a little something it's called CTRL+ ping your skillbar before going in.


17 pages of garbage and I wonder why that is so? I wonder where were all these "defenders of HA and all its righteousness" when the average life span of a pug group is 1 run

We once took a fresh from pve non ranked person into our pug, after telling him what to do and to follow calls we set off. We beat every team and won Halls. Oh and this was before there was Hero teams.


So the same goes vice-versa? If those who use heroway in ha cared less if you think heroway is an abomination and you don't care if they ever find a competent group in a reasonable time then what real right you have to take his hero'es away when you still don't care if he gets to play the game or not?

And note there was no real defenders of HA just a bunch of people who simply cared less if the person next to him was lfg for an hour.


Hmm....I never got a grand tour of ha...just 1 person I could count of grouping with(only 6 more random players to go woot). At best after several pugs..and a whole lot of TA experience...I became some what respected, among friends anyway. Anyway, could you explain what Iway tought the majority of players in Ha? Bspike? Or wait rpsike was even more sophistacted. Do you know the even simpler builds being run now by all human teams? Searing flames, Rao holding builds with dual paragons, 1 RaO thumper, 2 monks. 1 searing flames ele or 1 necro or 1 ranger your pick. They don't even need vent for those builds. Bspike and Rspike only needed vent for timing of the spike, one kid on vent saying "1,2,3" wow the tactics. The best build for learning(balance) has been shot to hell, everyone wants to spam this, spike that, hold this and that won't change in with or without heroes. Now, what will happen most likely if heroes are taken out of HA is your going to see a whole lot more of those Sear flame groups and RaO holding builds. Welcome to the new metagame hope you don't complain you have been warned.

Ok you obviously don't play HA often

1> The count is 3,2,1,Spike, how do I know? I play a monk, and have monked for r spike before, and as such, heard them count down on vent.
2>Vent is crucial to any build, which makes me wonder did [MATH] use vent?
3>IWAY tought people more than SF spamming ele bots has.

Why don't you try running a WoH/Infuse, RC, Devert Hexes, LoD, Healer's Boon, ZB, or hey let's break out the old school: SB/infuser




More heroes, otherwise you'll be nerfing the main feature of nightfall.

Uh. Adding Hero bots to Heroes Ascent was notthe main feature of Nightfall.

Boy I can't believe that all the things I posted in this particular post are pretty much the same points I made over on Guru.

And if you think us "ranked people who are obviously elitists" don't helped non ranked people consider this:

I spent 4 hours and a bit of gold buying skills and teaching an unranked person I had known for a bit in pre how to play a Shock Warrior. To help him gain experience I took him into the Zaishen challenge after basic 101 and had him face against all the builds listed there to gain experience against different build types ie: pressure, spike, degen, smite

[Lursey]

Boy I can't believe that all the things I posted in this particular post are pretty much the same points I made over on Guru.


perhaps...you can't think of something new to post?...not personally...but try to be a bit creative and contructive....saying something that has already been said is not really helpful

and...true that playing with AI will not train you team cooperation etc...with human....but will able to train you to cooperate with AI...

an environment allows you to do both.. I think is much more fun than just allowing you to do one

which you have an option to choose which aspect you want to be trained or to play with
-----

further notes on majority issue....

if we have a given majority ..and a minority....
say
60% of majority people saying Heroes are bad
and 30% people saying Heroes are good
10% with no opinion..

by removing hero.. may remove the 30% of the current HA people ...
I think that can be a great number....

[thedrjay]

And it may also lure back those that left due to the infestation of heroes thereby offsetting the 30% that would leave if Heroes were removed from HA.

[Lursey]

And it may also lure back those that left due to the infestation of heroes thereby offsetting the 30% that would leave if Heroes were removed from HA.

yep therefore either way can be good or bad

by comparing the number of people will play of

keeping the hero and using method to attract the people who has left back to HA
and
removing hero and using method to maintain the people who like to use hero to play in HA..

..see which one is greater...


so by just looking at majority and minority of supporting hero or removing hero.. doesn't help

[God Apprentice]

I believe that the "majority" of players in HA as you refer are really those who started at the double fame weekend, and the switch to 6 on 6. These people never really experienced HA as it was, the competition there was. Compared to how HA was then to now, and you would only know if you had been playing since the move to Heroes Ascent, or farther back when it was called Tombs, you would not understand how much of a lack of real competition there is today. The real competition left/went to gvg/etc, because Halls now no longer resembles the high end pvp area it once was.

[Wuzzman]

And it may also lure back those that left due to the infestation of heroes thereby offsetting the 30% that would leave if Heroes were removed from HA.

30%? Plz. It was a minorty that left and a minorty will be the only thing left so plz pass that narrow minded opinion to someone else.

[Lursey]

I believe that the "majority" of players in HA as you refer are really those who started at the double fame weekend, and the switch to 6 on 6. These people never really experienced HA as it was, the competition there was. Compared to how HA was then to now, and you would only know if you had been playing since the move to Heroes Ascent, or farther back when it was called Tombs, you would not understand how much of a lack of real competition there is today. The real competition left/went to gvg/etc, because Halls now no longer resembles the high end pvp area it once was.

what was the competition?

compete to be in a group of iway to fight against iway?
compete to be in a group to start a game?
compete to decide who exploits the most flaw in HA?

if that is the case.. I found it no difference back then and now.

high end pvp area does not depend on the environment.. but depends on the people playing in it... even with AI...groups of competitors can still be in that environment to compete...

but what are they competing for?

and by the way.. I never try to refer to any majority...just explaining when anyone who wants to look at majority...has to be careful...by the fact that majority cannot infer anything in the future


30%? Plz. It was a minorty that left and a minorty will be the only thing left so plz pass that narrow minded opinion to someone else.

he said "may also"... there is no need to dispute the number...as such as I have tried to explain a few times.. by looking at the superficial number can't conclude anything in the future.....

[JodoKast]

The real competition left/went to gvg/etc, because Halls now no longer resembles the high end pvp area it once was.

That is a completely different topic that is not due to the move to 6v6 or the appearance of heroes but something that is largely due to 3 other factors :

-> Metagame maturing and reaching an equilibrium : everybody plays the same build and everybody knows how to play against all build -> more predictible

-> GW is just a game, an entertainement activity and as such, it is not bringing eternal satisfaction to everyone. After 1.5 years live, it is perfectly normal that some people get bored and call it quit.

-> GvG has always been more challenging than HA ever was and will ever be. It matches teams of same skills against each others, has much more strategic depth, has tangible real life rewards associated to it,....It is only normal that high end players migrate to GvG eventually.

[thedrjay]

30%? Plz. It was a minorty that left and a minorty will be the only thing left so plz pass that narrow minded opinion to someone else.

Learn to read. According to Lursey's post "by removing heroes you may remove 30% of the people in HA". And my post states that the 30% that may leave would be offset by some of those that would return if HA was changed back.

[Almas Darksoul]

I originally decided not to post in this thread, because I knew that all the "elitist noobs" who form the "minority of HA players" would get flamed. After seeing people criticise Apprentice for what are, IMO, extremely important points, though, I think I should provide my opinion.

I have played Heroway myself for some kicks, and tbh it can sometimes be fun. However, it really does cheapen rank titles to a point where they are even more meaningless than they were before. I have been in so many RA/random pugs where after a victory, one of the worse players on the team proceeds to bambi the opponent. It could be an IWAY player, I know, but often they persevered to the higher ranks, as IWAY is a fun build (having played for some of the known IWAY'ers when the build was still around).

My personal opinion would be to change Heroway so that if more than 2 heroes were in your party, you would require multiple wins before the wins started gaining fame. This would encourage player interaction, and perhaps remove players who /afk farm fame with a pure defense build, as well as those who spam searing flames to farm fame. Those who played the build concept for fun would still be able to freely, and those "skilled" at microing their heroes could still get some fame.

That said, I would still prefer if Anet changed back to 8v8. As stated before so many times, less players often = less diversity. The build setup did not stale - even IWAY evolved over time (6war 1taint 1order-->4war1taint1order1trap-->4war1OoP1OoV2trap--> etc. with rits, fc nukers, martyr necros, spirit spam rangers...), and the addition of Song of Concentration mere weeks after the change would have shaken up the build choice even further by allowing capturing an altar to be a more achievable feat.


compete to be in a group of iway to fight against iway?
compete to be in a group to start a game?
compete to decide who exploits the most flaw in HA?


I find posts like these typical of many players who did not play before Heroes were around, let alone Nightfall being released. Even fighting the better IWAYs was enjoyable as it required unique tactics and positioning. Sure, the enemies on early maps could get frustrating, but there were enough maps where you could guarantee skilled opponents to make the rest enjoyable. In GvG, noone enjoys getting steamrolled by a much better team or vice versa, and yet this only seems to be complained about in Heroes Ascent.
Regarding starting the game, it is just an easy to form a parallel with the different gametypes. To do well in Guild Versus Guild, you need a team of good players (and several other factors). The same applies in HA, except now finding that team is supposedly ten times harder despite the lack of the restriction that atleast half of players must be in the same guild.
And flaws in HA... I only knew of one thing that could be comparable to a glitch that wasn't fixed by the time HA died. And for some reason very few HA players did - not to mention the glitch still exists.

I realise that I have gone off topic, but this thread seems to be rapidly decaying into this argument anyway. 6v6 favors the casual gamer to an extent, I agree. However, so many people before nightfall suggested a new 6v6 arena before even the proposed HA change, and instead we received a 1v1 arena that (AFAIK) is poorly populated. Heroes should be played, but the players of the build should not reap as many rewards.

[defrule]

The former HA many of us liked is dead and ArenaNet isn't going to use a resurrection signet on it. Limiting the number of heroes? It's like trying to save a dead dog. GFG ArenaNet.

[MilitiaMan]

How about NO heroes... or perhaps a NEW 8v8 humans ONLY arena and then keep HA this way?? yes yes me likey...

[Natalie Black]

I personally would like to see hero's removed from HA and if these hero lovers need hero's thats what Hero Battles are for.

[Wuzzman]

Learn to read. According to Lursey's post "by removing heroes you may remove 30% of the people in HA". And my post states that the 30% that may leave would be offset by some of those that would return if HA was changed back.

Maybe reading should be one of your new skills. Because my post clearly stated that the 30% that will leave is still greater than the minority that would come back.

[LagunaCid]

Maybe reading should be one of your new skills. Because my post clearly stated that the 30% that will leave is still greater than the minority that would come back.

I think that 20% of those 30% are the heroes and henchmen:grin:

[Natalie Black]

The thing is if people can use hero's in HA then why can't they in Alliance Battles?

They had it in Alliance Battles for about 2 days and then they found it would be a bad idea so they removed them and they should have removed them from HA also.

[defrule]

The thing is if people can use hero's in HA then why can't they in Alliance Battles?

They had it in Alliance Battles for about 2 days and then they found it would be a bad idea so they removed them and they should have removed them from HA also.

AB with Heroes was epic actually.

[Djinn Effer]

AB with Heroes would've been awesome... lol

[JodoKast]

The thing is if people can use hero's in HA then why can't they in Alliance Battles?

They had it in Alliance Battles for about 2 days and then they found it would be a bad idea so they removed them and they should have removed them from HA also.

That is because of a bug or AB at nighfall release : heroes did not count for a person in the team roster and therefore you could align 12 people + 36 heroes per team in the battle.

It is sad however that they removed them altogether to fix that problem.

[Kakashi Chan]

I have mixed feelings as I've stated in other posts.
Being able to grab some heros and go HA with a couple guildies is fun. Fighting against tons of searing flame n00bs gets boring, even if I do win most of the time.

I believe that AI's (heros and hench) should be no greater in number than humans. In other words for HA 3 AI's max. GvG 4 AI's max.

I believe also that with the upcoming nerfing of searing flames (I predect a 2 second cast time) that things will get better in terms of build variety anyway, but still maintain that half the party at least should be Humans in PvP.

[God Apprentice]

what was the competition?

compete to be in a group of iway to fight against iway?
compete to be in a group to start a game?
compete to decide who exploits the most flaw in HA?

if that is the case.. I found it no difference back then and now.

high end pvp area does not depend on the environment.. but depends on the people playing in it... even with AI...groups of competitors can still be in that environment to compete...

but what are they competing for?

and by the way.. I never try to refer to any majority...just explaining when anyone who wants to look at majority...has to be careful...by the fact that majority cannot infer anything in the future



he said "may also"... there is no need to dispute the number...as such as I have tried to explain a few times.. by looking at the superficial number can't conclude anything in the future.....

After you say competition you go directly into IWAY. People we getting tired of the old IWAY argument. IWAY had multiple nerfs, and was still run. It was nothing more than a pressure build, all you had to do was drop their spirits kill the orders, and do not kill the pets. The reason you find no difference then and now is because you probably didnt start to play HA until the double fame weekend, and switch into 6v6. Therefore you never did see REAL<----READ IT, real competition. People will run fotms because of their ease and the ability to gain fame easily, this has and will always be true.

You say that high end pvp does not depend on the enviroment but on the people even those playing with ai. No because then it ceases to be high end pvp, because exciting matches become bore fests of ai spamming SF>Glow Gaze, or afk people with heros set to defense so that they hope the human team will /resign, because with the Heroes theres no need to worry about a person needing to eat/go to work. He/She can camp all day waiting for you to roll so they can unjustily gain fame. That is sickening as it takes no skill all you need to do is make the other team resign to get fame. That teaches absolutely no skill and is a SLAP to the face for those of us who have fought real life people to win fame.


That is a completely different topic that is not due to the move to 6v6 or the appearance of heroes but something that is largely due to 3 other factors :

-> Metagame maturing and reaching an equilibrium : everybody plays the same build and everybody knows how to play against all build -> more predictible

-> GW is just a game, an entertainement activity and as such, it is not bringing eternal satisfaction to everyone. After 1.5 years live, it is perfectly normal that some people get bored and call it quit.

-> GvG has always been more challenging than HA ever was and will ever be. It matches teams of same skills against each others, has much more strategic depth, has tangible real life rewards associated to it,....It is only normal that high end players migrate to GvG eventually.

No a lot of people I have asked left because of 6 on 6, and they are appalled that HA has become a PVE farm


I originally decided not to post in this thread, because I knew that all the "elitist noobs" who form the "minority of HA players" would get flamed. After seeing people criticise Apprentice for what are, IMO, extremely important points, though, I think I should provide my opinion.

I have played Heroway myself for some kicks, and tbh it can sometimes be fun. However, it really does cheapen rank titles to a point where they are even more meaningless than they were before. I have been in so many RA/random pugs where after a victory, one of the worse players on the team proceeds to bambi the opponent. It could be an IWAY player, I know, but often they persevered to the higher ranks, as IWAY is a fun build (having played for some of the known IWAY'ers when the build was still around).

My personal opinion would be to change Heroway so that if more than 2 heroes were in your party, you would require multiple wins before the wins started gaining fame. This would encourage player interaction, and perhaps remove players who /afk farm fame with a pure defense build, as well as those who spam searing flames to farm fame. Those who played the build concept for fun would still be able to freely, and those "skilled" at microing their heroes could still get some fame.

That said, I would still prefer if Anet changed back to 8v8. As stated before so many times, less players often = less diversity. The build setup did not stale - even IWAY evolved over time (6war 1taint 1order-->4war1taint1order1trap-->4war1OoP1OoV2trap--> etc. with rits, fc nukers, martyr necros, spirit spam rangers...), and the addition of Song of Concentration mere weeks after the change would have shaken up the build choice even further by allowing capturing an altar to be a more achievable feat.



I find posts like these typical of many players who did not play before Heroes were around, let alone Nightfall being released. Even fighting the better IWAYs was enjoyable as it required unique tactics and positioning. Sure, the enemies on early maps could get frustrating, but there were enough maps where you could guarantee skilled opponents to make the rest enjoyable. In GvG, noone enjoys getting steamrolled by a much better team or vice versa, and yet this only seems to be complained about in Heroes Ascent.
Regarding starting the game, it is just an easy to form a parallel with the different gametypes. To do well in Guild Versus Guild, you need a team of good players (and several other factors). The same applies in HA, except now finding that team is supposedly ten times harder despite the lack of the restriction that atleast half of players must be in the same guild.
And flaws in HA... I only knew of one thing that could be comparable to a glitch that wasn't fixed by the time HA died. And for some reason very few HA players did - not to mention the glitch still exists.

I realise that I have gone off topic, but this thread seems to be rapidly decaying into this argument anyway. 6v6 favors the casual gamer to an extent, I agree. However, so many people before nightfall suggested a new 6v6 arena before even the proposed HA change, and instead we received a 1v1 arena that (AFAIK) is poorly populated. Heroes should be played, but the players of the build should not reap as many rewards.

Yes I agree rank has pretty much degraded further because you literally need no skill to get it now, just load up on Heros/Hench and free fame for you, compounded by the fact that there is no originality build wise going on since a lot of people are running hold builds, and when hold builds face each other it becomes a die roll fest, and rolling for your fame really is a crap way to gain it.

Yeah I have seen these afk hero teams and really that is a slap in the face.

I agree I find that people who tend to want the Heros must have never played prior to 6 v 6. When they came into playing HA, IWAY was widely run and these people probably got rolled quite a few times by it and got the impression that this was all HA was. Sadly these people are mistaken as IWAY was nothing more than a pressure build, and plenty of counters exist for it, reading up and learning how to counter would have made these individuals have a better impression of HA as they would have not gotten discouraged just because fotm running is rampant. Which brings up a point I would like to make: People will always run Flavor of the moment builds, it is nothing new. To my reasoning some people run fotms because it is easy to run, not like balance which for some they may not see it as easy to run, the other end of the spectrum I believe run it because it gets them fame the fastest so they can have their leet emote, even though in the proccess they learn absolutely nothing (those afk hero farmers come to mind).

I do believe they should be played....but not in Heros Ascent. There is a map for Hero based battles, please put it to use. I do think though the rewards in Hero battles should be a better to give more incentive to play there.



Maybe reading should be one of your new skills. Because my post clearly stated that the 30% that will leave is still greater than the minority that would come back.

Please tell me how you calculate that it is the minority as a lot of big name guilds no longer HA. The one I recognise most from HA that I still see is [DeeR]. That's only one out of many, therefore I would say a majority would return





I think that 20% of those 30% are the heroes and henchmen:grin:

I lawled at that

[Djinn Effer]

No a lot of people I have asked left because of 6 on 6, and they are appalled that HA has become a PVE farm

Q F T... Thats all I'm going to say, can't really risk actually getting into a debate in this thread as well... The other is already time consuming enough, LOL.

[God Apprentice]

Q F T... Thats all I'm going to say, can't really risk actually getting into a debate in this thread as well... The other is already time consuming enough, LOL.


Aww debating is fun though. As a consolation prize you win this smily with an afro: :afro:

[ZiegDivine]

The debate is retarded. It's more than tiring making the same points over and over for different PvE players.

[Dawn Stormborn]

Well, I'm lost in 22 pages of posts. :wink:

As for the Gaile's original question of limiting the number of heroes in a team, I think yes there should be a limit and the limit should be 50% of the team size - so for 6v6 that is 3 heroes max and for 8v8 that is 4 heroes max. Or perhaps something better would be "half minus 1" so for 6v6 it would be 2 heroes max per team and should HA ever get back to 8v8 it would be 3 heroes max per team.

I do like the option of taking a few heroes into HA - this is the only reason I've even been able to try it recently. I only have 3-5 guild/alliancemates interested in PvP, and between scheduling, availability, and other constraints including our average low rank, it is a time-consuming slog to get a group together.

Without using a few heroes to fill out a group I'm not sure I'd sink the time into LFG in HA, it just takes forever and feeds the vicious cycle of FoTM builds - it is generally faster to find a group if you are low rank and willing to do FoTM builds. I don't mind getting stomped by a better team in PvP (that is the whole point right?) it is the interminable process of forming a group I can't stand.

[supaet]

And think about this: Ok you get your rank 9 using Heroes with Searing Flames. You have unlocked all skills. You are standing around in HA one day with your rank 9 title out and someone asks you to monk....you will not be an experienced monk, because all you ever did was play with Ai, you also will not be able to do simple things like say "Backfire on 6" on vent because you would not have learned communication, and teamwork. Playing with Heros does not teach you how to pvp in GW. Besides you have never faced real competition, see:

Treacherous Empire
The Legend Of Pi
The Zaishen (who sadly do not exist anymore)
British Bulldogs
War Machine
The Notorious Luna
Rank Three Plus Pug (reformed as Slash Rank [DeeR]
Magic School Bus

Do I need to go on?






That's why you need to remove heroway, I'll take someone who iwayed their rank over someone who herowayed anyday. How can you tell though....oh well, gg anet. Have fun with your freaking pve updates....Give those people good gear and have fun with their vitual character. Thanks for ignoring pvp players. 3 freaking updates and no news on this? come on. Take a look at what pos ha is now. You think you fixed it? you better fix it now. Unless you want HA to be a ai arena.

[defrule]

You forgot Volcano Insurance Salesman

[ImSoToast]

Know what sux....6v6 totally killed guild groups. Now 2 players from core team have to sit on their arses or pug while core team is enjoying Ha and the team.

This is really starting to bother me because I joined a pvp oriented guild. Now I either have to "replace" a core team member, hopey they can't play/ are sick, or sit on my arse while the guild Ha's.

No wonder most guild groups you see in Ha are heroeways!

[Alleji]

You forgot Volcano Insurance SalesmanHe didn't list a lot of good HA guilds... in fact, it would be a very long list if he tried to list every prominent guild in HA in 2 years, but that's still a valid point. HA is dead. The real competition is gone. The high-ranked players who remained are all running paragonway for more fame and compete among themselves by rolling 100.

[Deaths]

This all remembers me of the days of the bad old spirit spam builds. Now all are running holding builds or heroway builds.

[supaet]

He didn't list a lot of good HA guilds... in fact, it would be a very long list if he tried to list every prominent guild in HA in 2 years, but that's still a valid point. HA is dead. The real competition is gone. The high-ranked players who remained are all running paragonway for more fame and compete among themselves by rolling 100.


Q F T,

HA = Hero's Ashamed

[God Apprentice]

You forgot Volcano Insurance Salesman


He didn't list a lot of good HA guilds... in fact, it would be a very long list if he tried to list every prominent guild in HA in 2 years, but that's still a valid point. HA is dead. The real competition is gone. The high-ranked players who remained are all running paragonway for more fame and compete among themselves by rolling 100.

It was just a partial list, enough to prove a point :cool: , whether or not these guilds were the ubersauce of HA, they were recognisable and yeah having to make a whole big long list would take a while :grin: . [scam] you win a smily w/afro as well :afro:


The debate is retarded. It's more than tiring making the same points over and over for different PvE players.

That's because all these pro Hero people were PVEers until they learned Heros could be used. I imagine the thought process went something like this:

Aw man I cant get 7 more people to make a team, and when we do we get rolled by some fotm, I hate this place and it's too much of a bother for me to try making groups on my own so I'm just gonna hate on ranked people because I'm not applying myself and they don't want unranked people

Oh hey look now it's 6 on 6, but aw man no one wants me to play because I still have no rank, so I'll continue to blame it on ranked people, not even bothering to read up on builds/try to make my own and run my own

Oh hey look they made it so I can use Heros. Wow take that all you ranked people, now I can get my fame with minimal skill and I'll be famous and have my cool emote and people will be like oh wow you have rank, and finally I'll be happy and get the respect I deserve,also teaching those "elitest noobs" a lesson that I too can get a powerful emote that shows people I am one of the top people so don't mess with me, and the shiny emote :sunny: ooo shiny.....I been wanting to have for so long.

Really being worried about getting your emote so that you can be "leet" is the wrong attitude to have, as it really kills all the fun of pvping, you should pvp to have fun, not be so worried about rolling everyone just because 'i'm r7, and because I have this wolf I am teh leetsauce". I know the above opinion does not apply to all, but I am sure there are some who do think this way.

[JodoKast]

Really being worried about getting your emote so that you can be "leet" is the wrong attitude to have, as it really kills all the fun of pvping, you should pvp to have fun, not be so worried about rolling everyone just because 'i'm r7, and because I have this wolf I am teh leetsauce". I know the above opinion does not apply to all, but I am sure there are some who do think this way.

the "you should" is out of place here. Everybody is entitled to play this game for whatever reasons he/she likes. If he/she wants to win to get an emote, that is his/her choice and you, or any other people, have no right to decide that this is the wrong way to play it because "it is not fun".

This is all subjective.

[Alleji]

Really being worried about getting your emote so that you can be "leet" is the wrong attitude to have, as it really kills all the fun of pvping, you should pvp to have fun, not be so worried about rolling everyone just because 'i'm r7, and because I have this wolf I am teh leetsauce". I know the above opinion does not apply to all, but I am sure there are some who do think this way.The emotes keep a lot of people in HA, though. Sure, it's wrong to think that "emote = leet", but it's something to strive for.

Fun is nice and all, but look at hero battles: They have absolutely nothing going for them, except "fun". Nobody plays them.

[Natalie Black]

I agree I think they should make Hero Battles give you somthing that would be worth playing vs HA.

If Hero battles had more to it it would take some HA HeroWay people away from HA.

[ZiegDivine]

For me, tbh, rank stopped mattering after I hit r4 ... it has been all about fun in HA for me since then ... if I cared about rank/emote I'd try to organize a group and get my last 91 fame for r6 ... but I don't.

[BrotherKurupt]

The worst part about this whole issue is the blatant misuse of "Heros" instead of "Heroes."

"Hero's" is not correct either.

It is Heroes' Ascent!

[Lord Natural]

That's because all these pro Hero people were PVEers until they learned Heros could be used.

Not true for everyone. I can only speak for myself and the people I PVP with, but we're all pretty experienced in HA, and sometimes it's just fun to grab a friend or two, add some heros and go on our way. They're better than pick-ups in a lot of cases, and you don't have to deal with pug bs. Don't get me wrong, nothing beats playing with a full team of players that you enjoy playing with, but there's still fun to be had with heroway for some people (and not just PVEers who are new to HA).

Going in entirely solo is a bit boring though, and somewhat futile. You need more than 1 person to have a reasonable shot at a relic run, against anything other than a solo heroway (or the truly inept).

[defrule]

You know what Gaile, don't fix change anything. Just leave HA as it is now. Every change made to HA has made it worse so far and I'm pretty sure Anet will just screw it up even more if they continue to "improve" it. Just let HA rest in peace plz.

[Djinn Effer]

You know what Gaile, don't fix change anything. Just leave HA as it is now. Every change made to HA has made it worse so far and I'm pretty sure Anet will just screw it up even more if they continue to "improve" it. Just let HA rest in piece plz.

I'd rather they just undo all the changes they've done to it thus far (minus balths stacking on ghostly & 1 man hoh block offs..) n' step away.... very far away.

[God Apprentice]

I'd rather they just undo all the changes they've done to it thus far (minus balths stacking on ghostly & 1 man hoh block offs..) n' step away.... very far away.

Don't forget mulitiple copies of spirits

[Djinn Effer]

Don't forget mulitiple copies of spirits

Hey now.. I have some accounts that need a couple 1000 fame. LOL

Ah, the old MS days.. *shrug* Yeah, I suppose that'd have to be gone too. >.>"

[Natalie Black]

HA is PVP and PVP is Person Versus Person so HA is meant for people only and henchmen are there if you lack one person but the majority is people now with hero's HA is PVE with one real person but if I wanted to fight AI that is what PVE is for.

If they made it 1 Hero per person then the most hero's there would be is 3 hero's with three real people.

[B Ephekt]

HA is PVP and PVP is Person Versus Person so HA is meant for people only and henchmen are there if you lack one person but the majority is people now with hero's HA is PVE with one real person but if I wanted to fight AI that is what PVE is for.

If they made it 1 Hero per person then the most hero's there would be is 3 hero's with three real people.
Good point, I wonder why nobody has thought to mention this yet.

[mcshell]

In my appinion the fact that one player can pack heroes and henches and go in is just sad. That's why Heroes Battles are for and not HA. It's destroying teamwork, which is crucial part of GW PvP system.
My suggestion is reduce number of heroes to 1 per person and remove henchmans, like many other ppl said befour. Unranked ppl just need to put some efort in it, like we all did....

(We finally understand why HoH is called "The Hall of HEROES":undecided: )

[Motto]

Good point, I wonder why nobody has thought to mention this yet.
Several people have throughout this thread, just not always in the same terms.

[an Sun]

Ban heroes from HA or 1 hero per person.
Btw. Any news from gaile about heroway or ANet want us to shut up and forget about it?

[B Ephekt]

Several people have throughout this thread, just not always in the same terms.
Hence my sarcastic reply...

[Some Dude]

Guys they are not going to completely remove the heroes, for a very simple reason.

New players.

How is a person new to the game ever going to get into a HA group unless they can have heroes, honestly. No title = no group. Are you so selfish so as to want to ruin the experience completely for anyone new to the game?

Apart from this, I am generally for SOME heros anyway, since the amount of time to assemble a group of human players of rX+++ rises exponentially with the number of players you have to find. And it's just frustrating unless you are some HA megastar with all the other HA megastars on your friends list/guild/alliance (I'm sure most of you guys who are arguing for total elimination of heros fall into this category).

I think one hero per human would be a great compromise. You could still have teams with only 1 human (4 hench and a hero), but that would experience much much less popularity, since hench are teh suxxor.

The real problem however imo is the ease with which someone running heroway can beat other hero teams, by using searing flames/sandstorm or whatever. The reason for this is twofold: 1) that the AI is crappy, they won't scatter from AoE, and 2) that there is no adjustable scripting for NPC's, ie you can't program them to (for example) maintain signet of humility/mantra of inscriptions on one target, while using their other skills on different targets (without ridiculous levels of micromanagement).

In summary:
- Have consideration for the new players
- A good compromise between both sides of the argument seems to be 1 hero per human (requiring 3 humans minimum if you want a team running 100% tailored skillbars).
- 'Good' heroway can farm nub heroway using searing flames due to shortcomings in the AI/commands you can give to your NPC's. I think that this is the reason that there is so much heroway running around. No I am not suggesting a nerf of searing flames btw, which is a topic for a different thread so please don't get started.

[Djinn Effer]

Guys they are not going to completely remove the heroes, for a very simple reason.

New players.

How is a person new to the game ever going to get into a HA group unless they can have heroes, honestly.

The same way everyone else before heroes were put into the game did. The major flaw in your logic though, is.. They arn't "getting into a HA group," they're basicly PvEing with their hench AI buddies. Even if they did get "rank," later on and did get groups, they'd be so clueless that there would be a whole new level of discrimination arise where nobody would ever get groups without friends cause the incompetency level would reach an even new height, much higher than it has, and to say that alone is quite sad. Anyways, I don't really want to waste my time in this debate; so, I'm leaving it at that.

[God Apprentice]

Were we not all new once? Observer mode is a great tool to see builds in action. Also searching places (such as gwshack/Wiki/wtc) will yeild results on builds.

[Motto]

Hence my sarcastic reply...
Ahhhh, ok. I didn't know you were being sarcastic. It tends not to translate into text without a /sarcasm tag.

[Lykan]

So Gaile its been almost a month since you started these threads.

Has anything been decided yet?

[Alleji]

So Gaile its been almost a month since you started these threads.

Has anything been decided yet?Anet's resources are all tied up trying to fix pre-NF and new exp scrolls so they stack properly. Just be patient and when they have time, they'll get to the less important issues.

[God Apprentice]

Yeah would be nice to get a reply Gaile, your thread on Guru got shut down btw. We know you lot busy but take some time and give us some word on what's up

[blue cheez]

I have an idea...screw getting rid of heroes, get rid of all the human players.

That seems to be Anets approach on trying to make HA a challanging experience..

BTW:

no idiot will take a r8 gladiator for a rank8 because nothing
this is because 4 v 4 is not anything compaired to 6v6
so then why is it that there are still r9 groups, in which everyone there got their 4k fame from 8v8, running in 6v6.
the change from 8v8 to 6v6 was so dumb, it's like making random arenas give Kurzik Faction titles

[God Apprentice]

While we are at it, let's nerf fun itself

[Lursey]

today I have heard a fairly sounded argument against hero in Guildwars, I am not sured whether it has been posted before... but I will just try to say it


It was said that, guildwars has always been trying to bring together a community, however by using hero in any form of play in pve or pvp, it seems like it is discouraging a community come together, but instead trying to isolate individuals..... this seems not to be the objective of what anet trying to do..

discuss.

[supaet]

today I have heard a fairly sounded argument against hero in Guildwars, I am not sured whether it has been posted before... but I will just try to say it


It was said that, guildwars has always been trying to bring together a community, however by using hero in any form of play in pve or pvp, it seems like it is discouraging a community come together, but instead trying to isolate individuals..... this seems not to be the objective of what anet trying to do..

discuss.

ok, let me play as a lvl 28 monster to woot some pver's ***

[Djinn Effer]

today I have heard a fairly sounded argument against hero in Guildwars, I am not sured whether it has been posted before... but I will just try to say it


It was said that, guildwars has always been trying to bring together a community, however by using hero in any form of play in pve or pvp, it seems like it is discouraging a community come together, but instead trying to isolate individuals..... this seems not to be the objective of what anet trying to do..

discuss.

Kinda late in this thread to bring up an entirely new subject like that. I suggest making an entirely new thread to avoid posts like the one above this. I do agree with you though. Their objective is to make money. :heart:

[FlyingHippo]

I have just started HA and honestly, heroes are not needed at all. I have a whooping 11 fame and I don't find it difficult at all to find a group. Theres always someone making a sf group. And I've never seen a rank discriminating one yet (not saying much considering my experience :rolleyes: ).

Rank discrimination is not as big as it's made out to be.

Hence I say heroes should be removed completely. They were removed from AB's, how is this different? It's called PvP for a reason. Please don't keep it as PvH. If you hvae to, limit them to 1 or maybe 2 in the case that you need a monk or something. 1 hero + henchies still allow a person to play by themself if they want to.