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View Full Version : Is the woh/rc two-monks build still relevant?



Pitit Caribou
28-11-2006, 23:16
Hi all, I've just begun to play in HA with my monk. To get familiar with this new kind of game, i've tested the "standard" builds, ie: 1woh/1rc or 1booner/1blessedlight or 2 booners. But...i dont know if it's really relevant to go on with the old builds, since with the release of nightfall i kinda have the impression that the fights are much more...bloody. I mean with all those fire el, or w/a i really cry to keep my team alive with these dual monk builds.

I've heard, that the parangon had some skills to help the monks, but i didnt have the chance yet to see that in live^^ Anyway, with only 2monks i dont think its really efficient to have a monk doing exclusively the (pre-)prot job and the other one focusing exclusively on healing--> the metagame is way too fierce for this in my opinion

I dont have nightfall (yet) so i dont know if the new monks skills are really cool or not (just on the paper, divert hexes looks great and so does revitalize-a new kind of booner?). So my question is do you guys have some new ideas for monking in ha? Or do you think the old model is still viable?

Djinn Effer
28-11-2006, 23:57
Paragons = energy management and protection. Energizing Finale, Aria of Zeal, etc for energy and Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Incoming, etc for protection.

Wuzzman
29-11-2006, 00:11
Paragons = energy management and protection. Energizing Finale, Aria of Zeal, etc for energy and Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Incoming, etc for protection.

This is the ONLY thing that is making the new monks builds worth any salt over the traditonal ones. There is a new generation of crappy monks coming just you wait and see.

God Apprentice
29-11-2006, 12:02
Hi all, I've just begun to play in HA with my monk. To get familiar with this new kind of game, i've tested the "standard" builds, ie: 1woh/1rc or 1booner/1blessedlight or 2 booners. But...i dont know if it's really relevant to go on with the old builds, since with the release of nightfall i kinda have the impression that the fights are much more...bloody. I mean with all those fire el, or w/a i really cry to keep my team alive with these dual monk builds.

I've heard, that the parangon had some skills to help the monks, but i didnt have the chance yet to see that in live^^ Anyway, with only 2monks i dont think its really efficient to have a monk doing exclusively the (pre-)prot job and the other one focusing exclusively on healing--> the metagame is way too fierce for this in my opinion

I dont have nightfall (yet) so i dont know if the new monks skills are really cool or not (just on the paper, divert hexes looks great and so does revitalize-a new kind of booner?). So my question is do you guys have some new ideas for monking in ha? Or do you think the old model is still viable?


Paragons = energy management and protection. Energizing Finale, Aria of Zeal, etc for energy and Watch Yourself, Shields Up, Incoming, etc for protection.


This is the ONLY thing that is making the new monks builds worth any salt over the traditonal ones. There is a new generation of crappy monks coming just you wait and see.

I don't think you need to be flaming people and ranting that a new generation of "crappy monks is coming". Given Tombs current state, there is not much running but "fotm paragon hold" and while yes it is true that the paragon skills give an endless battery of energy for the monks, that doesn't mean that it is causing a new generation of monks to be made that do not conern themselves with managing energy. As a monk myself (and having been playing HA for a while since 8 on 8) I myself make sure I have energy management, and any monk worth it's salt will learn to do that as well. If they do not then they need to reevaluate themselves as a monk and try to find ways to improve, such as carrying energy management.

As to thoughts on monks in Halls: WoH/Infuse and RC prot is still a good combination, and has long since become the standard issue monk back line, previously, the backline was 3 monks: WoH (main healer) SB/Infuser (Spellbreaker on the ghostly, infuse to catch spikes mixed with some heals and a seed for chain seeds) and RC. If you think these are outdated, well think what you will but these were the standard issue monks, as WoH/Infuse and RC is now, and they are still effective which is why they are still used today. I believe Wuzzman thinks that because the paragons can supply so much energy to the monks that the Divert Hexes, Healers Boon monks are "noob" because essentially the Healers Boon can spam Heal Party, but remember that this is run in a holding build where the object is, holding. In a regular balance the monk isn't going to be blindly spamming Heal Party (a 15 energy skill).

Pitit Caribou
29-11-2006, 16:26
Keep cool guys, i'm not talking about the paragon or bad monking. I know the strengths of the combination woh/rc, it's a really standard build that has been widely approved, nothing wrong with that.

But with the release of nightfall, the situation changed a bit, the new el skills are really powerful (and a little bit brainless...), so are the new warriors' adre spike, the fights are getting longer because of a heavy defense (para, bonders...) and since you do not always group with an organized team, it's hard for this combination(woh/rc) to deal with everything. The old monks builds may need an update imo. The metagame is changing, why would the monks use the same skills as before?

But if you tell me that you have tested all the new monks skills, that there is no new opportunity of interaction with the other professions, that's ok, i'll wait for santa to offer me nightfall so i can check this by myself^^

ZiegDivine
29-11-2006, 17:37
I haven't HAed since NF came out, but light of deliverance (a 5e heal party elite, pretty much) is very powerful against the SF spam. I don't know what I'd run as the second monk, but that would definetely find a place in my skill bar.

B Ephekt
29-11-2006, 19:40
RC is still a very viable skill if you have 2 or more more melee characters in your build, due to blinds and cripples being easily covered.

Divert Hexes is obviously quite amazing if you're facing a hex team, but generally forces you to take condition removal (mend of dismiss) on both monks.

Healer's Boon seems to be ultimately superior to WoH in almost every aspect, but only if the person running it can manage their energy.

The more I use Healer's Boon the less I like Light of Deliverance, but I guess it could still be useful in a few builds.


This is the ONLY thing that is making the new monks builds worth any salt over the traditonal ones. There is a new generation of crappy monks coming just you wait and see.
Not really, Healer's Boon and Divert are both very good skills. Monk builds are just more build dependant than ever before, whereas before you'd be stupid to run anything but WoH and RC in most cases.

Also, PUG monks have always sucked, so there really isn't anything new or amazing about your statements.

Deaths
29-11-2006, 20:54
Unlike the Faction skills for core characters, the Nightfall skills are well thought. Especially for the Monks. Healers boon is a relable skill to manage haevy dmg builds. Since u can run just 2 monk backlines for a blanced team Glimmering heal and Healers boon are well supports. Ppl should run more prot/heal hybrids instead of just prot or just healer builds.

Before Pragon came out their were alrdy changes to 6vs6. In matches with 6vs6 even without energymanagment skills i had no problems with energy. Paragon is a nice support but in most cases u dont need his eng skills unless u spam haevy eng skills. In 6vs6 u can heal even without hp or seed quite good. If u manage ur skills well. And dont overheal ur team.

Pitit Caribou
01-12-2006, 02:07
In 6vs6 u can heal even without hp or seed quite good. If u manage ur skills well. And dont overheal ur team

You're assuming that you play with people who dont stay close to each other against some teams (a sf team for instance^^)

But I think you're right when you say that prot/heal hybrid builds may be more efficient. For example, Prot spirit is really great because its efficiency doesnt depend on your protection attribute (which only modifies the duration of the skill -but even if it only lasted 5secs, it should be enough to break the ""spike"").

Divert hexes may replace rc in my heart, because it also helps to deal with conditions (even though it requires some hexes on the target to work so)--> it will depend on the metagame, but i've seen some degen team last time I played...maybe when (if) sf gets nerfed!

Nonetheless, I think that running with 2 monks specialised can be pretty cool if you are used to playing with the other monk and you both have a really good overview of the fight.

Lord Natural
01-12-2006, 07:51
Healers boon is a relable skill to manage haevy dmg builds.

Healer's boon is only useful in Paragon holding builds, which requires its monks
to sit in one spot the entire match, in 3 wards (not even bothering to kite), with constant paragon energy coming in.

I don't think it is reliable at all, compared to traditional monk elites. It's a maintained enchantment and it's an expensive recast. If your team is facing a team with a Grenth Dervish (or a team with strips in general), the elite is useless. If your team is facing an nr/tranq build, the elite is useless. The ideal elite for a monk is one that can adapt to as many situations and builds as possible.

Without a bunch of wards, 2 paragons buffing your heals and armor, and energizing finale giving you insane energy, this elite is as impractical in HA as divine boon. Now that energizing finale has been toned down, I expect this elite will lose popularity.

Pitit Caribou
04-12-2006, 21:31
Well, i've done some ha this week end with my dear monk, and i definitely find sf teams or rao thumpers hard to deal with. I just cant manage my energy with channeling and mantra of flame when 4 or 5 members of the team get burned all the time. Same thing with the new thumpers...guardian is dangerous to use, prot spirit cant be spam (who do i chose for prot spirit? the one who's targeted by the thumpers? the one who gets sf?), healing skills have a slow cast/recast

With the other monk, we managed to keep our team alive, but...how long before we get short of mana? I know that the key of energy management is to use his skills relevantly and beware of overhealing, but nightfall makes fights much more violent than they were before imo. Plus there are only 2 monks now in ha.

And even though monks may not be the only ones to blame after a defeat (people who stay sticked to each other when facing a sf team doesnt help), ive always thought that a good monk could turn an average or even a bad team into something decent. And even it was true in ra, its not the same thing in ha... But i guess thats part of the challenge.

btw, well done with your argument on elites skills lord natural. you convinced me!

B Ephekt
04-12-2006, 22:27
In 6vs6 u can heal even without hp or seed quite good. If u manage ur skills well. And dont overheal ur teamSeed is too good to not take. When you have to keep a dumb, non-kiting NPC alive on 3 out of 8 maps, dropping seed is just a dumb idea if you consider how much energy you'd have to spend healing him without it.



Healer's boon is only useful in Paragon holding buildsThis is hardly true. Healer's Boon can be run with Power Drain and Channeling in pretty much any build quite sucessfully, provided your monks aren't horrible. 1 second cast heal parties that heal for ~120hp make this skill worth it alone.

It's a maintained enchantment and it's an expensive recast.5 energy is "expensive?"

If your team is facing a team with a Grenth Dervish (or a team with strips in general), the elite is useless. This is when you cover it with channeling, or have your prot monk put an enchant (guardian, if he has it) on you if you're being targetted. Just like with Apostasy, a grenth dervish has to actually hit through evasions/blocks to remove an encantment, so there is a lot you can do to minimize the danger to the Boon monk. There is always kiting as well, you know.


If your team is facing an nr/tranq build, the elite is useless. The ideal elite for a monk is one that can adapt to as many situations and builds as possible. In this case you would drop Boon and have you team kill the spirits, or just kill/shutdown the guy with the spirits. A good Boon build should have enough healing power to deal with things like NR or stripping, though.

Lord Natural
05-12-2006, 00:22
5 energy is "expensive?"

My mistake, I was under the impression it was 10.



This is when you cover it with channeling, or have your prot monk put an enchant (guardian, if he has it) on you if you're being targetted. Just like with Apostasy, a grenth dervish has to actually hit through evasions/blocks to remove an encantment, so there is a lot you can do to minimize the danger to the Boon monk. There is always kiting as well, you know.

It's just dangerous as a monk to rely on an enchantment as your ace in the hole. I mean, if your team is good enough to always keep you covered, and if you're good enough to manage it knowing this, then more power to you. Most monks I face in HA aren't. Many of these were trained on Healer's Boon through the old holding build, and are lost without the Paragon armor and energy buffs. Again, if you're good enough, you can make just about anything work. Most people aren't.


In this case you would drop Boon and have you team kill the spirits, or just kill/shutdown the guy with the spirits. A good Boon build should have enough healing power to deal with things like NR or stripping, though.

Again, that's no guarantee. If you're holding halls under moderate pressure and an Oath Ranger spamming NR is part of your opposition, you have to expect it will be up at least part of the time, even with a player dedicated to following the Ranger.

One of the monks I group with regularly is big on boon as well, and it's not like we have major problems as a result. He's been around, and we know what to do as well. But even so, there are certain situations where it becomes an liability. It may only be once every 10 matches.

Anyway, it's just my opinion that RC/WOH are more reliable than the alternatives. They also happen to be easy to manage. If a monk and his team are good enough to use Boon and make it a greater benefit than other elites, more power to them. To each their own.

Lord Natural
05-12-2006, 00:39
And even though monks may not be the only ones to blame after a defeat (people who stay sticked to each other when facing a sf team doesnt help), ive always thought that a good monk could turn an average or even a bad team into something decent. And even it was true in ra, its not the same thing in ha... But i guess thats part of the challenge.


It's true that a monk can't make a team great all by himself, but having good monks is certainly an important part of a team.

If you're having a lot of energy problems, try to pay special attention to your positioning on the map. Channeling really is a great tool, but it's only as effective as the player makes it. If you're facing a SF team, you have some freedom to choose your own map positioning, since there is no melee pressure. Typically SF teams stay close together. You want to be close enough to their group such that you're gaining at least a +3 from channeling, but not so close that you're drawing AoE to your own warriors who are attacking their group.

If you still find this isn't enough, consider modifying your team build to better withstand that initial barrage. A Paragon certainly helps, but one thing I've been doing is packing life bond on a character (not one of the 2 monks). That doesn't mean they're a traditional bonder, but what I have them do is bond up the backline before a round starts. If you're facing a normal team, they can just drop the bonds right away. If it's SF, they can keep them up for a couple of minutes until that rush is over. The thing about most SF teams is, they typically have very little or no real defense, and they rarely pack enchant strips. So once you get those first couple of kills, they tend to go down quickly.

Some Dude
12-12-2006, 01:06
I see a lot of r6+ teams spamming LF WoH and RC prot still nowadays. imo, this is because people stick with what's been proven to work in the past even if they don't know why.

If you look at the metagame atm, there are not a lot of condition stacking teams, making RC pointless (may as well have mend condition vs SF). RC is a waste of a monk elite in HA atm imo, as with the insane damage you take it just can't keep up.

I'm interested why nobody's mentioned zealous benediction yet - it stands up to pressure better than pretty much anything (and facing 2 teams trying to get you off the altar at the same time, this is the definition of pressure), and in combination with shield of absorb the only thing that will drop your ghostly is avatar of imba aka grenth.

Another thing I see a lot of people with is divert hexes....again I don't know why, sure it's great vs hexes but the meta is not hex heavy at all.

Light of deliverance + zealous benedict is my pick at the moment...haven't really tried healer's boon much. I don't see that many people with zealous coz I guess it hasn't caught on yet, but that's partially due to the fact that the heros can't use it at all (they refuse to heal themselves with it, ever, even if they're at like 10 health). Luckily they can run light of deliverance fine (even seeding the ghostly :o ), so I can still heroway with a solid backline :)

Btw glimmer is a sucky skill, don't run it.

melandrus elite
12-12-2006, 02:48
I see a lot of r6+ teams spamming LF WoH and RC prot still nowadays. imo, this is because people stick with what's been proven to work in the past even if they don't know why.

If you look at the metagame atm, there are not a lot of condition stacking teams, making RC pointless (may as well have mend condition vs SF). RC is a waste of a monk elite in HA atm imo, as with the insane damage you take it just can't keep up.

I'm interested why nobody's mentioned zealous benediction yet - it stands up to pressure better than pretty much anything (and facing 2 teams trying to get you off the altar at the same time, this is the definition of pressure), and in combination with shield of absorb the only thing that will drop your ghostly is avatar of imba aka grenth.

Another thing I see a lot of people with is divert hexes....again I don't know why, sure it's great vs hexes but the meta is not hex heavy at all.

Light of deliverance + zealous benedict is my pick at the moment...haven't really tried healer's boon much. I don't see that many people with zealous coz I guess it hasn't caught on yet, but that's partially due to the fact that the heros can't use it at all (they refuse to heal themselves with it, ever, even if they're at like 10 health). Luckily they can run light of deliverance fine (even seeding the ghostly :o ), so I can still heroway with a solid backline :)

Btw glimmer is a sucky skill, don't run it.

*cough* jagged horrors plus death nova *cough*

imho i believe that one of the only good monk skills in night fall is holy haste for a healer monk that can hardly ever be interrupted, and glimmer is only good for RA.

PS ZB is pretty good

Some Dude
14-12-2006, 05:58
*cough* jagged horrors plus death nova *cough*

Lol ooh fear the degen. These are not conditions that I feel particularly worthy of using an RC on.

Plus I take healer henchman, he has healing breeze, woot gg (/sarcasm)