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View Full Version : A glimpse of the future of GW because of the Hero system



Lais Irideika
10-12-2006, 02:44
Ok, I know this has been said before, but tonight I had a reality check with the fact that indeed, the Hero system (even though many of us love it, myself included), may eventually completely kill off the GW community.

I have attempted 4 times in the past week to do the Moddok Crevice mission, with PUGS. All 3 times, the mission failed (2 of those times were with a fairly good group).

I finally decided tonight that I would try it out with Heroes and henchies and see if I can make it through on my own...

Well, you guessed it: I made it through on my own...

This is NOT normal. Moderately difficult missions were usually truly difficult to do with henchies only (for myself, anyway - I know many people will probably say they have never had problems henchying it all the way).

And now, me, who was never able to do a moderately difficult mission with henchies has done it tonight...

I truly have a love/hate relationship with the hero system... (similar to the one I think I am going to have with those rain beetles... but that is another story... :laughing: )

________
Edit: my apologies for opening a new thread when there was another still active, that was similar in the train of thought... I just saw it now...

IlikeGW
10-12-2006, 03:07
Yep, heroes are not clearly good or bad, they can have both effects on the game. I mean it's nice to zip through any content with them but soon after you'll realize, damn, that could have been more fun if there was some difficulty. It will be interesting to see if they try to limit their pick-up group destroying effect in the future, or just leave it.

Pyromaniak
10-12-2006, 03:09
Personnally I like the hero system, because up to date I've been able to solo every mission. I did a couple of PUGS to get masters rewards for somme quest but unlike you they proved to be better than my hero's. Maybe the groups weren't that good.

Ryuchan
10-12-2006, 03:15
ask yourself why you failed the mission with a pugs, the answer will be the same most times : other players 'screwed' up (maybe even you)

you in control of the entire team thus eliminating the 'other player screw up' factor increases your rate of success immensly.

and yeah, i do believe in some degree you are right, people will pick hero's over pug's more often and it might lead to a decline in pugging. However i believe this will (for example) also lead to more then 5 people in any ROF outpost (therefore possibly improving the overal pug quality).
Simply due to the fact people now have the means to get there, and not sit around 3 hrs to form a group. If they will still pug when getting there, i dont know, but i do think overal hero's have not hurt GW.

Xycury
10-12-2006, 03:23
using henchies i have found to simplify gaming.

often bringing another player, real player or two beefs up the gameplay to make it harder.

I am thinking it should be the other way around.

easier it gets with the more real players you have....... though the loners that don't pug will have a difficult challenge...

Lais Irideika
10-12-2006, 03:31
But see this brings me back to something I have said a few times before: if we don't PUG anymore, might as well call this an off-line game... Isn't the whole point of an on-line game being able to actually play with other real people?

Pyromaniak
10-12-2006, 03:32
often bringing another player, real player or two beefs up the gameplay to make it harder.

I don't find that to be true, of course somme people aren't as good as others but you can still explain them what to do, if they know they're not he best they'll probabl follow you're advice (lets just hope your good :P). Heros follow your advice to but sometimes I find them to be quite stupid. Usually when I pass by a group my MM will aggro them =(

Rampageoh
10-12-2006, 05:12
The most other real players I have played with in Nightfall is 4 I think. Most towns there is almost no "LFG" going on despite the fact that the outpost is full of people. I like not being dependent on other people to progress in the game and the fact that I don't have to stand around for 20 minutes or more to get in a group but I do miss interacting with other players and sharing the sense of accomplishment when we beat a mission or hard quest together.

KitsuneFawx
10-12-2006, 05:53
I'm glad heroes are in, especially when playing as my rit or ranger. No more having to wait for groups, and now I can blast through campaigns at any pace I want. I soloed 90% of NF 4 times with heroes, have overall soloed every mission in NF at least one time with them.

Heroes, imo, only added one thing to GW and that's having whatever builds you want in your party. No more waiting on an MM, monk, interupter, nuker, etc. to show up. Now even the unwanted professions can make everyone else feel "unwanted" by just adding in a few heroes.

reciprocal
10-12-2006, 05:54
But see this brings me back to something I have said a few times before: if we don't PUG anymore, might as well call this an off-line game... Isn't the whole point of an on-line game being able to actually play with other real people?

The purpose of playing an online game is to have FUN playing with PLAYERS, not GRIEFERS. The PUG experience is soiled with the huge amount of people who won't listen to advice, won't take into consideration other people's needs or are generally rude. I'm sorry, but I'd much rather play an online-offline game than to have to put up with these people on a daily basis.

Real people learn from their mistakes. In real life, if you don't learn from them you will DIE.

Scutilla
10-12-2006, 07:00
So, you're saying that henchmen are more skilled than an average PUG...

Explain to me again why this is a bad thing? :huh:

Deaths
10-12-2006, 11:09
Ok Im one of the guys who henchs all the Missions through all three chapters. But it was nice to play with other guys through the missions if ur bored. Now i cant find any group.

As i remeber well it was really hard to pug in the first days of Faction, cause most players were sins or rits. Same goes for NF. Heros just eased the tense, but now we have the prob to get a pug.:flowers:

Dawn Stormborn
10-12-2006, 13:57
But see this brings me back to something I have said a few times before: if we don't PUG anymore, might as well call this an off-line game... Isn't the whole point of an on-line game being able to actually play with other real people?

There are other grouping arrangements than PUGs, such as friends, guildmates, alliancemates. All this fear mongering over PUG death is misplaced. If there were no heroes/hench, and PUGs continued to be so... random as far as quality, people would naturally migrate to friends/guild/alliance anyway to get through tougher missions. Then we'd be reading a zillion threads about how the friends list is destroying the game, OMG what can we do.

Khaunshar
10-12-2006, 14:13
The problem is that most players are simply so utterly bad, its not even funny anymore.

Heroes are not rocket scientists, aside from interrupting they dont really do anything remotely as well as a solid or good player.... but most players are bad.

In factions, I already rather had a group with henchies than filling up with random people, because in most cases (most, as in 70%) you have at least one total idiot in any given PUG.

The fact is that GW makes it possible for such bad players to advance by getting dragged through in PUGs.
The mistake is not in a hero system that sets a bar for the worst acceptable performance (which is easy to meet, really). the mistake is allowing people so utterly unable to play GW to advance at all.

Spatzimaus
10-12-2006, 14:17
Doom doom doom DOOM doom DOOM doom doom.

Sheesh.

First of all, anyone who thinks the old system (where you'd spend hours, literally, hoping someone of the right class entered the zone) was better than what we have now is demented. To verify this, go to one of the few missions that isn't as easily soloable (like Gate of Madness, and yes, I have henched it) and see the groups there. Or go to DoA. The other day I was in DoA and THREE TIMES, our group had to abandon the mission within the first few minutes because someone lost connection or quit.

Second, you're worried about the "community"? Here's the thing: the people who like grouping with other people will still do so, although most of those will join guilds. So, if it's harder for you to get a PUG now, it's because you're now no longer forcing the people who didn't want to group with you in the first place to do so. If you reduce Hero effectiveness so that PUGs are the better choice, then all you're doing is forcing those people back into your groups, and that won't make things better for anyone.

Competent players > Heroes > Henchies > Incompetent players. The catch here is, most players think they're competent; if the group wipes out, it was someone else's fault. With Heroes, everything's your fault. A good player with heroes can breeze through any mission in the game. A PUG with even a single incompetent player can wipe out consistently, and with 7 other players, what are the chances?
Also, one of the lesser-discussed benefits of Heroes is that they can be very one-dimensional builds. Many people would get bored playing a pure healer, so they mix in some secondary profession skills; Heroes don't need to do that.

As for the perennial question "Why play an online game if you're not going to group with other people?", here's a list of answers. Pick one.
1> Regular (sometimes daily) patches. Most offline games I've played have only released a handful of patches in the game's lifetime, and almost never more often than once per month.
2> New content that doesn't always require buying a new box at the store.
3> An economy, so that you can actually do something with that fantastic item you just looted, or so that you can buy the item you've always wanted but were never able to get.
4> The ability to PvP with your character once you finish the storyline. Even if you don't like PvP much, it's still something to do every once in a while.
5> Because what's the point in spending a fortune on cool-looking armor if there's no one around to see it?
6> Because with a high-speed connection your computer can pretty much be on the net 24/7, so why NOT have the game be online?
7> No temptation to use a cheat code to skip past a tough section, since they don't exist here.
8> If you're in a guild, the game can be used a chatroom whose avatars just happen to have swords. (I'd done that in EQ a few times; log in, sit down somewhere quiet, and talk to my friends without ever adventuring.)

Lais Irideika
10-12-2006, 14:33
The most other real players I have played with in Nightfall is 4 I think. Most towns there is almost no "LFG" going on despite the fact that the outpost is full of people. I like not being dependent on other people to progress in the game and the fact that I don't have to stand around for 20 minutes or more to get in a group but I do miss interacting with other players and sharing the sense of accomplishment when we beat a mission or hard quest together.

So you probably ALSO have a love/hate relationship with the hero system...

I also love the fact that if I don't feel like it, I don't have to do a mission with other people, but what if most of the time, I would like to be in a PUG for that interaction, but all the outposts have a whole bunch of people just going in with heros and henchies? It's unfortunate because it takes the "multiplayer" out of the game, which is in part its essesnce.


There are other grouping arrangements than PUGs, such as friends, guildmates, alliancemates. All this fear mongering over PUG death is misplaced. If there were no heroes/hench, and PUGs continued to be so... random as far as quality, people would naturally migrate to friends/guild/alliance anyway to get through tougher missions. Then we'd be reading a zillion threads about how the friends list is destroying the game, OMG what can we do.

Friends, alliance and guilds are indeed an option, but unfortunately, not as readily available as 30 people in an outpost that all need to get through that mission at that very point in time. Friends and guildies are not always on at the same time as you, and even if they are, they may be busy doing something else at that time, or need to log off within the next 15-30 minutes and can't come join you, even if their heart is in the right place and they would love to if they could.

Dawn Stormborn
10-12-2006, 14:49
Friends, alliance and guilds are indeed an option, but unfortunately, not as readily available as 30 people in an outpost that all need to get through that mission at that very point in time. Friends and guildies are not always on at the same time as you, and even if they are, they may be busy doing something else at that time, or need to log off within the next 15-30 minutes and can't come join you, even if their heart is in the right place and they would love to if they could.

Yes, but is being forced to PUG really better for the game overall? It is so tedious to find a PUG imagine doing that for EVERY quest, every skill you want to cap, every time you need to explore to an out-of-the-way outpost, etc.

I don't get all the threads over the exact same issue, when every single one winds up with the general consensus most players like heroes/hench. For every drawback there are more advantages. People that want to group will keep doing it, just like you did, until for whatever reason they don't and then there are more options available. It sounds like you got the best of both worlds - you PUGged until you got tired of it, then just passed the mission with heroes/hench and moved on. Imagine getting stuck there because PUGs were your only option and you were an unfavored profession so it took you 4x long to get a group.

Celtic Stargazer
10-12-2006, 15:21
IMO Heroes are AWESOME, and please before you flame me, please read the reason for this feeling. My husband and I play the game together side-by-side in game and in RL as our computers sit side-by-side. His computer is slow in changing zones and lags at some of the most inconvenient times.... so when we would run missions with pugs he would get rants because he was slower than the others and often we would get rage quit people...even tho when we formed the pug I would explain to all of the group about his computer and "all" would say "that is ok we will wait for his puter". Yea right.:shocked: Now we can "happily" run together and not have to fill our roster out with sometimes useless henchies as our heroes "do" perform better than henchies ever did. We don't always run just us and heroes as we have made a few WONDERFUL friends in game, but as they live in different time zones and have "lives" outside of GW, sometimes we can't get together with them. So I think Heroes have DEFINITELY improved our experience in the game. :flowers:

Gorani
10-12-2006, 17:20
Competent players > Heroes > Henchies > Incompetent players.

Liked that one:smiley:

Don't forget, the community wanted Alesia to stop wanding foes for almost two years !
I could be wrong, but I think the main reason why we we should love heroes is, because it makes us more independend from other players.
It is not that I don't like to play with them (Friends, Guild/Alliance & ZooCrew), but I can aviod "the human error" more often (A Monk you said he was a excelent healer and uses 6 smite spells, a warrior who still uses Axe attributes with the Sword etc.)

Aurelia Dark
10-12-2006, 17:20
Heroes are great. I did thw hole game with them since my guild had already finished NF for the most part. Jennurs horde was a blast.

They eliminate the frustration of bad pugs but of course will never replace playing with friends and guildies or a good pug where people cooperate and actually have some fun - and I think this is precisely what they were supposed to do :)

Lais Irideika
10-12-2006, 19:17
Yes, but is being forced to PUG really better for the game overall? It is so tedious to find a PUG imagine doing that for EVERY quest, every skill you want to cap, every time you need to explore to an out-of-the-way outpost, etc.

I don't get all the threads over the exact same issue, when every single one winds up with the general consensus most players like heroes/hench. For every drawback there are more advantages. People that want to group will keep doing it, just like you did, until for whatever reason they don't and then there are more options available. It sounds like you got the best of both worlds - you PUGged until you got tired of it, then just passed the mission with heroes/hench and moved on. Imagine getting stuck there because PUGs were your only option and you were an unfavored profession so it took you 4x long to get a group.

All right - you got me convinced. Heroes definitely are a good thing. (remember that I said I loved them almost as much as I hated them... you helped me swing the other way... A woman is not a woman if she can't change her mind... :cutie: )

All right - let's convert everyone now! :laughing:

DeadSmurf
11-12-2006, 01:07
I fully agree with the topics subject about how the hero system will change the Guildwars game play.

Here is an example of how it changed my GW exeprience

I started a Prophecies Ranger 6 weeks ago and the first thing i did was get a run to Lions Arch, do the Elona Quest and get my hero's.

After that i did the entire part of Nightfall came back to Propehecies and then went on to Factions.

I played a total time of 303 hours in 42 days to achieve my "Kind of a big Deal" title. I achieved the title with the following maxed out titles

- Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer
- Elonian Grandmaster Cartographer
- Protector of Tyria
- Protector of Cantha
- Protector of Elona

Apart from the Eternal Grove mission in Kurzick Factions and the Grand court of Sebelkeh in Mirror of Lyss i did all missions with my 3 hero's running 3 B/P Rangers and an mm and 4 henchies

Moral of the story: When you try to hug walls while you do a mission and you dont want to redo it because someone err=7 or cant handle the "long way round" then you are left with this strategy.

BTW: Either game play has become easier, i have learnt all the tricks from 2 years playing Guildwars or the Hero henchie system works better than pug's, because i was able to run through all of the mission smoother than back in the days when you would want to rage quit the game because Jarlis Ironhammer made you fail Thunderhead keep for the XX consecutive time....

Last but not least. Hero system has allready changed HA drastically, but then i spose thats another topic.

Da Cebuano
14-12-2006, 04:02
The problem w/ PVE is that there an overwhelming amount of stupid people to contend w/ and the fact that theres another human controlling a character means that the possibilities for uncertainty increases. yeah sure, it can be fun to play w/ other people, but really, do you really talk in missions unless you're on TS or vent? only thing I remember people talking is, "BACK OFF" or "DON'T AGGRO" or crap like that, so whats really good about that? Not to mention that people's reaction time and unfortunately, the majority of the people don't have a clue on good builds, and by good I mean effective.

Majority of the PVE community who have never pvped to get some insight on energy management and efficiency or bothered to improve their proficiency of their profession will keep doing the exact same mistakes over and over again and will spite any critics or just mess up in general. Heroes eliminate all those variables, but then again, Heroes are only as good as those to made them. I can honestly say that Heroes are a god sent to those who are good at the game. The rest will stay looking for groups hoping that the group itself will solve the mission w/ his limited input.

heroes will not replace great players, its simply not possible. Heroes can't think, rather utilize whats been given to them. However, Heroes will elimiate 99% of pugs, simply cause most pugs are thrash. Also the fact that w/ heroes, you can make their builds to synergize w/ the other, most pugs bring whatever they want w/ no regards to what type of character teh other guy is.

W/ heroes, I don't get monks spamming 0 energy after the first minute of a fight simply cause he spammed healing breeze on everyone. Or an Ele w/o the proper spells simply cause he doesn't have it unlocked. Only time I'd quest is w/ friends and guidies and usually we're on vent/TS so the communication makes it more fun. Otherwise, questing w/ pugs only leads to failure the majority of the time.

Problem isn't w/ heroes, rather the overwhelming lack of sense and skill by the majority, sorry to sound elitist but its an observation after 19months of the game.

rentauri
14-12-2006, 04:12
Question it boils down to is this: Do you honestly want to PuG with someone who doesnt want to PuG with you? I know I dont and hechies and now heroes give them the option to be happy and you the option to be happy. If you couldnt do the mission with a PuG but could do it with a Hero/Hechie group there is a breakdown in the PuG somewhere along the line. What you described has happened with me and many others, PuG and fail it but hechie/hero it and pass it. That said I doubt I will ever stop PuGing simply because with the odd GOOD pug (I know, I know that is a myth) the game is a breeze and very, very fun to.

Aurelia Dark
14-12-2006, 16:08
Last night, I henched aurora glade bonus and sanctum cay bonus pretty easily with heroes, plus I could map both areas completely without any cries of "omg what u doing" "wtf" or any other crap like that, it was nice being able to do it at a leisurely pace with nobody barking too. Go heroes :)

I'd like to see us allowed to build a full hench team for elite areas too, some of us simply don't have enough time to do these areas unless it's at weird times or with long breaks.

Dragon Fang
14-12-2006, 18:38
I'll chime in and cast my vote in favor of the hero system although the heroes are only as good as the player controlling them. I did THK the other day to help someone from our alliance and we decided to add several puggers to the group. When we needed to hero one of the monks one of the puggers asked to bring their heal monk. To our surprise once we got started we see minions popping up yet we had no MM. Turns out the hero monk was M/N and was playing as an MM.

I've always enjoyed playing with pugs (for the most part) but I am finding that there are more and more puggers out there who are too l33t for their own good. You invite a pugger to your group and he immediately starts asking to see everyone's skillbar and telling everyone what they need to equip to do the mission HIS way. It's even better when you find out later that he has never actually done the mission before but he read it on GW Guru.

I'm all for talking a little strategy before starting and haveing a plan but I've lost patience for people who micro-manage groups like this and will just leave if it starts. You don't need a particular group build or skillbar to beat any mission with the possible exception of some of the elite missions. I like the randomness of doing missions with different group builds and different ways to play the various professions as long as some general roles are filled. i.e. would be nice if the healer actually healed instead of raising minions.

The other thing heroes do for me is allow me to attempt missions when I may be time constrained. I can login, start a mission with heroes/hench, and either complete the mission or if I get pressed for time just abort and logout without leaving other people in a bind. Due to real life commitments I end up in this situation quite a bit.

In short I agree that heroes are an asset and not the source of the problem. I also agree that people using heroes to avoid the situations such as those I described is not a bad thing and forcing people to join pugs when they don't want to is not the answer.

halfthought
14-12-2006, 22:54
Heros screwed up the quality of PUGs, because any competent player can do all missions with heros (as opposed to a good-ish player with henchment), so now, only people who are so bad that they cannot beat.... moddok crevice... PUG

Dragon Fang
15-12-2006, 01:07
I think heroes contributed but pug quality started going down before heroes were introduced. I think it had a lot to do with alliances. The majority of better players are in a guild/alliance and primarily group with them. A good guild of 40+ players and an alliance of 7+ guilds is a pretty big pool of players to group with before resorting to pugs.

GrimShade
15-12-2006, 02:24
3 pages I won't read but I'll agree many times I would rather hero/hench than PUG. Gates of Desolution I PUG'ed for 2 tries. Both wipes before the queen worm went down. I Henched it perfect the first try. I attribute this to basic same target attacking. In a PUG no matter what you do it wont happen. With Hero's they have no choice but to attack your target, thus it goes down quickly and easily.

Hero's didn't change my mind on this, I was doing it for Factions. Heros made it easier for me as I now have more powerful henches. I will still play with my guild or a good balanced PUG over my Hero's when I find them. I just don't find them much.