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thecarrion
13-12-2006, 23:39
http://gwshack.us/da7d

Yes, it's different.
Yes, we're crazy.
Yes, it works - but it needs improvement.

Help me out a bit and make suggestions/comments? Could use some help with the last 2 monks...not my area of expertise.

(btw thanks for some of the ideas on these forums, like P/E :afro: )

Jummeh
14-12-2006, 00:48
I'm afraid its not really a spike.

A spike is where you override the ability for healers to heal the person before they are killed.

Your attack chain lasts for 8 seconds. In which time you can actually use any kind of heal/prot spell you like.

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 00:50
it might work once or twice but once they figure out what you're doing...gg

draw/extinguish/any condition removal ftl b/c any condtion removal renders you with no damage

once they begin to get hexed up their just gonna kite away b/c its not like the spike occurs right after they're hexed and what do you do when the sin gets blinded right after iron palm by a an ele who only has 1 melee char to watch or what if they just keep a 24/7 blind on him with your only conditional removal as two extinguishes?

and with divert hexes being so popular 3 out of your 4 key hexes are gonna be removed just by that plus any other hex removal they have

do you have a runner?

5 secs for the sig "chain" + 2 secs to hex them + 2 secs for the sin to attack them = a lot of time to kite

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 02:09
Well, good points definately...I'm trying to move a 4man TA to an 8man and I'm missing some key things I guess.

1) I could drop the amplify damage for just another spiker. That'd make it 600 dmg every 2.5 seconds, against a target who can't have enchaments (key thing here, you realize 99% of stuff to prevent spike is enchantment) and receives 50% from healing. You just said "to override healing on someone who can just be healed or protection spells cast on them"....did you even look at the build, d-d-dumb...ok I'll be nice.

2) I'm not too worried about hex remover since it's a lot to remove (5 in 2.5 seconds = mark of prey/lingeringcurse/parasite + shadow shroud/expose defenses...less if the half casting time hits). And remember, removing the hexxes is done by the healers....who aren't healing him at the same time, or very weakly since they need to remove lingering curse which is around 2-3 in place....and it doesnt affect the combo at all, just how they can save the person easier. With all hexes removed, it's still 600dmg/3sec for 9 seconds.

3) Ya need a runner....hmph, need to think about this. With the paragon/3monks, we've honestly had too much healing. I might drop one of the last prot monks for a runner of some sort.

4) Um, how are they going to blind him if he has Spell Breaker on? It'd have to be a pretty coordinated attack on him to remove him from the picture...although that does make me realize I should get another enchantment or two on him in-case they get bright enough to figure it out. Maybe a draw conditions or something similar on one of the monks....and I could give the paragon a burning/weakness ability to stack it on - armor of earth is pretty much overkill with ward, and doesn't affect the bond in anyway. Viper's defense helps in a nice way, which can retaliate against any melee near immediately....melee swings at one of the casters, monk blinds, spike damage for 600 to that person - it's pretty sick.



Ok so drop a monk, tweak the two monks a bit, need a runner....maybe I could combine the setup assassin and lingering curse. He really needs the 4 combo skills to poison/blind, and 4 hexes....and 1 to get out. Hmmm, need to think on this. Maybe spread the hexes across the spikers, with 1 each.

More thoughts? Suggestions? And honestly before you say it's not a spike, be on the front end of it...where you cant be protected via enchantments, healing is 50%, and you're taking 600 a thump (I thought 400 was bad enough) every 3 seconds.

(made some updates to the site)

Sword Breaker
14-12-2006, 02:51
Here are some solid monk builds that should help you out a bit.

Mo/W or Mo/A
Divert Hexes, Mend Condition (Or Dismiss Condition) Shield of Absorption, Gift of Health, Reversal of Fortune, Protective Spirit, Balanced Stance (or Return), Shield Bash (or Dark Escape)
13 Protection
9 Healing
9 Divine
9 Shadow or Tactics
------
Mo/W
Zealous Benediction, Dismiss Condition, Infuse Health, Reversal of Fortune, Spirit Bond, Holy Veil, Balanced Stance, Shield Bash.

14 Protection
6 Healing
9 Tactics
9 Divine
I highly recommend you run Balanced Stance on your infuser due to things such as gale on spikes, thumpers, KD chains, etc.

A better idea for your paragon would be something like cruel spear. I noticed that you didnt have a deep wound in the build so i figured it would go well with the KD from the sin. To be honest, Lingering curse is terrible. As much as the 50% less healing seems appealing, it really is a terrible skill, especially for spiking. A better skill to consider would perhaps be Signet of Suffering? or another high damage skill.

Edit.
I forgot to mention that there is a cap as to how much healing reduction hexes stack, i think its something like 66% but dont quote me on that. Check it out yourself.

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 03:21
well divert takes off three hexes a use and heals the target....

and what if they remove the conditions from your target?

Ace Bear
14-12-2006, 03:24
A couple things wrong here.

1st, your Assassin and Necro slow this spike down to easily countered times. What you need is an easy way to spread poison and blind. What you have is a horrible way that telegraphs the spike by about a mile and a half. My suggestion is that you should take the Sin away and use a Poison arrow Ranger(using barbed arrows with it applies more pressure that you need) although Crippling Shot/apply poison is a good one too. The CS ranger will also allow you to control more of their melee. For the blind I suggest Blinding Surge. Your spike will be faster you will have more defense and those builds actually have energy management.

2nd, your Paragon is useless "go for the eyes" helps your Assassin but since he isn't the main damage whats the point? Also Mending refrain is there but only one Shout to make sure it reapplies. "Incoming" is much better for defense imo because it covers the entire party and it doesn't cost you any life. If you want wards put in an Obsidian Flame spiker that has wards and a Glyph of energy.

3rd, your 2nd monk(number8) has 3 15 energy skills and 4 10 energy skills with only Glyph of Lesser energy to support it. If you don't go against a spike team this guy will be out of energy ALOT(of course even vs a spike team I have my doubts about him). For the first monk you have deadly paradox to recharge 1 skill faster? If you need better escape add another escape not that, Return is proven.

And one more thing, SB is kind of an iffy skill in GvG right now. With pressure builds that skill be useless and Ranger spike(that is coming around with Paragon support) it will be useless as well. Better option is Zealous Benediction.

I like the idea with the Mesmers though.

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 04:46
Alrightie, more changes....here goes.

-Removed assassin/necro combo
-Removed assassin "setup"
-Added condition spreading ranger (needs finishing with stats....not my area of expertise)
-Added blinding/burning elem (needs finishing....gave her both types of spike, and burning speed *awesome with They're on Fire! and Malice Signet*)
-Team Absorb gained some team-abilities, with They're on Fire and Lyrics that affect signet use (liking this)
-Fixed the monks, gave both 2 signets (might tweak the first monk, give him something else besides signet of rejuv since his stuff is cheap - need stats for 2nd guy...hmm)

Notes:
-I was using GFTO because it's the cheapest/shortest shout I could find that didn't need energy, but switched to another route now.
-Shadow Shroud is really hard to get rid of because 99% of anti-spike is enchantment

Further comments/suggestions for finishing this?

Ace Bear
14-12-2006, 05:57
Burning speed is your only way of setting their team on fire, you don't want to make your ele directly by their Wars. Also for the attributes give him plenty of energy storage or he can't cast worth a crap. And you don't need conflagaration. Gives fire damage doesn't set their team on fire. You do have some other problems but I say just go test the build in GvG and see what you can do.

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 07:05
i'm not sure why you're bothering with all of the hexes in the spike...
the 3 sins do about 600 damage in half a sec, thats more then enough to spike and you could still use your keystone/mantra of sigs combo just spread it out over three targets. Why not just add a taint (more pressure and harder to remove conditions) with b-flash for the spike and a poison shot/barbed ranger for even more conditions?

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 20:30
Alright, even more changes:

-Removed Conflag (thought it was burning)
-Switched to Apply Poison and Burning Arrow as the elite, got rid of Shadow Shroud
-Changed the damage chain for even more damage (didn't think about this, but deadly paradox renews the signets...)
-Last monk is a runner, gave him long-range team boosts and some running/defense
-First monk lost dark escape for protective spirit

Thoughts:
-The only hexes now are the 2 elementalist ones, both able to be applied in 1 second time (1/4th second casting time plus "aftercast")...it's a helpful boost to anti-healing.
-Pestilence is *huge* in this build since there is burning/poison/blind/bleeding all around.
-Divert Hexes was a big help...condition removal isn't that important with Lyric of Purification, since everyone has signets besides the Paragon Absorb
-I'd love to add Taint, but really can't find out a spot....the only option is to really drop one of the sins, but that's dropping a lot of damage. I can't switch the main monk to it because without Divert Hexes, we can't handle hex-heavy builds.

Any other thoughts? we won 8 times so far in GvG :)

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 20:41
not smart to run two preps on the same bar

why not drop the paragon for a monk?

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 20:47
The Paragon is really a key in making this work - Angelic Bond eats 50% of damage from 4-5 members of the team, not including They're on Fire. The Lyrics really help with mana/condition removal, it's pretty sickening how nice it is (the blinding surge elem has unlimited mana).

If I dropped the paragon, all I'd be gaining would be a Ne/Mo....or *maybe* a Ne/P with defensive shouts. I'll have to think about the Ne/P idea.

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 21:04
Hmm, here's an idea - switch the P/E for a N/P:

12+1 Death
9 Soul Reaping
9 Motivation
6+3 Leadership

Tainted Flesh
Animate Shambling Horror (soul reaping double, bleeding, anti-corpse manipulation)
Energizing Finale
Lyric of Purification
Lyric of Zeal
Hexbreaker Aria
They're on Fire!
Aggresive Refrain

I'd get the same signet synergy, I'd get Disease to add to the condition, and I'd get some defensive shouts to increase energy gain from Energizing Finale. I think I'll need the refrain for the N/P to keep up his adrenaline for 2 adrenaline chants.

Thoughts?

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 22:23
i'd switch poison arrow for burning arrow on the ranger and drop apply poison so that way he can spam bleed/poison

why not swicth the ele for a nec/ele with something like:
taint, rotting, shambling, deathly chill, necrotic, glyph lesser energy, b flash, rez

that way you could keep the paragon, add dps in disease, and still have the blind to spike

thecarrion
14-12-2006, 23:02
i'd switch poison arrow for burning arrow on the ranger and drop apply poison so that way he can spam bleed/poison

why not swicth the ele for a nec/ele with something like:
taint, rotting, shambling, deathly chill, necrotic, glyph lesser energy, b flash, rez

that way you could keep the paragon, add dps in disease, and still have the blind to spike

If I do that, I lose all burning from the team....and the use of They're on Fire. It's not so bad with 2 preps...I lose 2-3 seconds tops of 24 seconds. And now when I shoot a burning arrow, it applies burning/poison/bleed all at once.

R A N D O M
14-12-2006, 23:29
last time i checked you can only have 1 prep up at a time...so you only have two skills that apply burning, burning arrow and burning speed...i just feel that with poison/bleed/disease from poison arrow/barbed and taint would be more effective then a little bit of fire and either poison or bleed depending on what prep you have up...maybe if you made both the ele and the paragon more focused on casuing burning...

thecarrion
15-12-2006, 02:15
Burning Speed is a lot....it's AoE burning. In your option too, I'd lose blinding surge which is a lot of blinding and a fair amount of damage.....and extremely spammable. I didnt know about 2 preps, not a ranger :-/

Hmmm...isn't there something that says when someone is hit by fire damage they burn? I could always add that to the elemental, or maybe Anthem of Fire to the paragon.

I'm going to try messing around with the Necro/Paragon idea....it'll give me disease and bleeding, via the shambling horrors.

the choseone
16-12-2006, 15:16
its mark of rodgort:when target foe and all adjacent ( i think) foes take fire dmg they are set on fire for 1...4 secs

Almas Darksoul
16-12-2006, 16:26
You can't have two preps up at once.

Mark of Rodgort is the fire hex that makes enemies burn once hit by fire damage. It's an AoE hex (the burning is not AoE, the hex is).

Some of my notes:


Is Symbolic Celerity really that great? It's a hefty cast time and has very little bonus for your assassins. It may be worth considering Me/As with it. Not too much damage would be lost from the spike, considering that it could be activated faster.
Antidote signet is kinda poor. Consider Remedy Signet, in Paragon No Attribute.
Viper's defense is probably not the best skill in the spare slot for the assassins - it only works if they are hit which will not as often as you may expect. If possible, try finding another condition inflicting skill. Alternatively, a self-heal would alleviate a lot of pressure.
Your backline will not survive against any reasonable amount of pressure. It really won't. My advice is to drop the E/A fire elementalist and take a monk instead.
Change the Ranger to Ebon Dust/Apply Poison. It's a lot better and will make the spike smoother. Make sure he has as cover enchantment. Pestilence is weak (Rez Signet ?), Throw Dirt is weak (Whirling Defense/Natural Stride). I'm not a big fan of Pin Down either, but you do need some snares in your build.
Reconsider 3/4 of the Paragon's Bar. Take Signet of Return. More conventional Paragon skills (Check observer) will work better IMO. If you really love your current build, drop one point in earth to increase Motivation to a reasonable level.


Apart from that sizable list, I must say that I rather dislike the build concept itself too. Good luck in running it though.

Edit: You may want to change the position of Deadly Paradox on the bar to after the first use of Keystone Signet. This would be the best possible time to use it and it will last until the end of the spike anyway. For preference it should also be preused before the spike begins too.

thecarrion
17-12-2006, 00:04
You can't have two preps up at once.

Mark of Rodgort is the fire hex that makes enemies burn once hit by fire damage. It's an AoE hex (the burning is not AoE, the hex is).

Some of my notes:


Is Symbolic Celerity really that great? It's a hefty cast time and has very little bonus for your assassins. It may be worth considering Me/As with it. Not too much damage would be lost from the spike, considering that it could be activated faster.
Antidote signet is kinda poor. Consider Remedy Signet, in Paragon No Attribute.
Viper's defense is probably not the best skill in the spare slot for the assassins - it only works if they are hit which will not as often as you may expect. If possible, try finding another condition inflicting skill. Alternatively, a self-heal would alleviate a lot of pressure.
Your backline will not survive against any reasonable amount of pressure. It really won't. My advice is to drop the E/A fire elementalist and take a monk instead.
Change the Ranger to Ebon Dust/Apply Poison. It's a lot better and will make the spike smoother. Make sure he has as cover enchantment. Pestilence is weak (Rez Signet ?), Throw Dirt is weak (Whirling Defense/Natural Stride). I'm not a big fan of Pin Down either, but you do need some snares in your build.
Reconsider 3/4 of the Paragon's Bar. Take Signet of Return. More conventional Paragon skills (Check observer) will work better IMO. If you really love your current build, drop one point in earth to increase Motivation to a reasonable level.


Apart from that sizable list, I must say that I rather dislike the build concept itself too. Good luck in running it though.

Edit: You may want to change the position of Deadly Paradox on the bar to after the first use of Keystone Signet. This would be the best possible time to use it and it will last until the end of the spike anyway. For preference it should also be preused before the spike begins too.

When I've got some more time, I'll reply but um Deadly Paradox disables non-assassin skills - if I use it after my first keystone, I cant use it again. The build has some problems, but don't doubt the spike - it's pretty much the most painful strike I've seen from 3 spikers (3200 dmg)

thecarrion
17-12-2006, 00:35
ok let's see...

-Symbolic Celerity turns all the signets, into .75 casts. It's a few seconds difference without it. And Me/As has gotta be the dumbest suggestion I've ever heard - Fast Casting doesn't affect signets, and you'd lose a LOT of damage. Think about it, seriously before ya suggest I take it out.
-never thought of Ebon Aura on the ranger, I'll think about it...it'd be quite a change. I'd also lose the poisonous string on the bow which adds 33% duration to poisons...hmm
-antidote signet is nice, and if I go Ebon...um, I won't have paragon. The biggest point is that it has a fast recharge for the Lyric abuse.
-Viper's Defense may not work all the time, but it's priceless against some. Try melee spiking when your guys teleport around on the first hit. The only thing I may switch it for, would be Feigned Neutrality.
-The paragon helps a *lot* ironically against pressure. Eating 50% of damage is a big deal, especially when he takes practically none of it. With protective spirit on him, if you hit someone for 100, he takes maaaybe 20 damage. You're asking me to take away Lyric use, I mean...come on, have you looked at this build at all?
-Pestilence isn't so bad, especially if you spike fast enough. Spreading bleeding/poison/blind/burning to everyone around the target is nice when it happens, although i'll admit it's rare. Throw dirt is just his version of anti-melee spike....although I'm open to better suggestions.
-I've been messing around with the switch of the paragon to a Ne/P for Tainted...it's not bad, but I lose angelic bond which makes it a bit hard to survive. If I switch to feigned neutrality on the spikers, it might offset this.

The build may not be the flavor of the month, but seriously don't mock it until you try it - the signet chain is a LOT of damage.

Almas Darksoul
17-12-2006, 12:19
-Symbolic Celerity turns all the signets, into .75 casts. It's a few seconds difference without it. And Me/As has gotta be the dumbest suggestion I've ever heard - Fast Casting doesn't affect signets, and you'd lose a LOT of damage. Think about it, seriously before ya suggest I take it out.


If you put more points in fast casting...
You get a longer symbolic celerity with better effects...



When I've got some more time, I'll reply but um Deadly Paradox disables non-assassin skills


Nope, it doesn't. And yes, I have checked personally.




-antidote signet is nice, and if I go Ebon...um, I won't have paragon. The biggest point is that it has a fast recharge for the Lyric abuse.


I admit that I forgot to remember that Remedy Signet and Ebon Dust Aura are in different secondary professions, so both cannot be taken at once. However, if you do not go for Ebon Dust Aura, there is very little excuse to not take Remedy Signet, which is a FAR superior skill in the majority of situations.



-The paragon helps a *lot* ironically against pressure. Eating 50% of damage is a big deal, especially when he takes practically none of it. With protective spirit on him, if you hit someone for 100, he takes maaaybe 20 damage. You're asking me to take away Lyric use, I mean...come on, have you looked at this build at all?


Lyric of Zeal gives some of your team 4 energy every ~12 seconds, assuming optimal use. With an Aegis up on the rival team, it will take a lot longer. With Blind on the rival team, it will take a LOT longer (there are only two physical damage characters in the team, so the Paragon will be blinded fairly often).
You have one skill that causes burning in the entire team (assuming you use Ebon Dust), and a weak one at that (pushing elementalists into the rival mid/backline is not fun). Energizing Finale is just plain horrible after the change. There is little reason to take the skills I have just mentioned, and I still believe there are better alternatives to atleast 2-3 other skills. Angelic Bond is fine tbh, there are other options but if it works for your Paragon then it doesn't hurt to use.



-Pestilence isn't so bad, especially if you spike fast enough. Spreading bleeding/poison/blind/burning to everyone around the target is nice when it happens, although i'll admit it's rare. Throw dirt is just his version of anti-melee spike....although I'm open to better suggestions.


1) Pestilence goes up.
2) Enemy mesmer/warrior kills Pestilence in 3-4 seconds.
3) Wait for 55 seconds and repeat.

In other notes, I'm going to say this again: Your backline is too weak. You will not stand up to serious pressure if early spikes do not land, which may well be fairly often. The elementalist is the weakest character in your offense, so I would replace him. Either way, your offense is heavily dependant on the Ranger.
If you drop the ele, you can also afford to change your paragon into something slightly more aggressive, such as the N/P you mentioned. However, I really don't think that your build has the ability to pressure a team, nor that it will by changing one character.

The pressure created by your team is single-target pressure - it forces the rival monks to expend energy in order to keep the target alive. The majority of the conditions inflict team pressure - they are draining the health of the entire team. This is not countered by monks, but by flaggers and some midline casters. You do not have enough pressure or shutdown to be able to harm the rival team through any means other than spikes.

If you wanted to swap the Paragon, I would suggest some kind of character that is capable of soloing in order to defend your base. One option is a second ranger, who can help in applying poison to targets.

garidanthefighter
17-12-2006, 19:36
ok let's see...

-Symbolic Celerity turns all the signets, into .75 casts. It's a few seconds difference without it.
It lasts 5 seconds, 6 with 20% enchants, in your current build, and would only *optimally* be active for everything except the last signet of toxic shock and signet of shadows, shaving a total of 2 seconds off of your spike.

And Me/As has gotta be the dumbest suggestion I've ever heard - Fast Casting doesn't affect signets, and you'd lose a LOT of damage. Think about it, seriously before ya suggest I take it out.
-never thought of Ebon Aura on the ranger, I'll think about it...it'd be quite a change. I'd also lose the poisonous string on the bow which adds 33% duration to poisons...hmm
-antidote signet is nice, and if I go Ebon...um, I won't have paragon. The biggest point is that it has a fast recharge for the Lyric abuse.
-Viper's Defense may not work all the time, but it's priceless against some. Try melee spiking when your guys teleport around on the first hit. The only thing I may switch it for, would be Feigned Neutrality.
-The paragon helps a *lot* ironically against pressure. Eating 50% of damage is a big deal, especially when he takes practically none of it. With protective spirit on him, if you hit someone for 100, he takes maaaybe 20 damage. You're asking me to take away Lyric use, I mean...come on, have you looked at this build at all?
-Pestilence isn't so bad, especially if you spike fast enough. Spreading bleeding/poison/blind/burning to everyone around the target is nice when it happens, although i'll admit it's rare. Throw dirt is just his version of anti-melee spike....although I'm open to better suggestions.
-I've been messing around with the switch of the paragon to a Ne/P for Tainted...it's not bad, but I lose angelic bond which makes it a bit hard to survive. If I switch to feigned neutrality on the spikers, it might offset this.

The build may not be the flavor of the month, but seriously don't mock it until you try it - the signet chain is a LOT of damage.

It is a lot of damage, but in the damage chain you have on the gwshack site, it happens over 7 seconds, and that's assuming you start spiking right after symbolic celerity goes up, getting the full 5-6 seconds out of it. Not much of a spike if you ask me. Plus, 4 rez sigs, 1 snare, and only 1 real monk that uses a sup rune? The paragon will just get spiked down or pressured into not being able to do anything once the enemy team realizes what he does. Sure, he has Stoneflesh Aura, but pretty much every team has enchant removal, and it will be easy to take off when it's his only enchant. Almas is right, deadly paradox disables Attack Skills, not non-Assassin skills. However, Keystone signet disables all non-signet skills (for 8 seconds in your build), meaning you will not be able to use deadly paradox at the point in the damage chain where you have it, adding another second to the spike. One final thing, your spikers depend and wait on the ranger and ele getting blind and poison on the target before they can do damage. I'd assume you have timed it so the signets go off with little time to spare after the target is blinded and poisoned, but after the first spike or two, the other team will realize that a quick draw or other cond removal will compleletly minimize your damage sources. They will probably be able to get it off before the 2nd signet and depending on the condition removal they use, sometimes before the 1st signet.

thecarrion
18-12-2006, 08:03
Alright, more major changes:

-Signet Spikers changed a bit, each gets a different perk (anti-elite, anti-spirit/more damage, and energy-drain). If they're gonna be signet whores, might as well go all the way....they're also Mes main now, lowering their signet damage from 100 to 80 each.
-Ranger is now Ebon Aura. Debating on the use of Screaming Shot, since it does give bleeding but requires closeness of some sort (anyone know the range of "earshot"?). Signet of Pious can eat away Fleeting Stability....it's kind of weak, but I'm not good on Dervish stuff. Suggestions to finish him out? I also like the added poison/blind (with possible bleed/burning as well) in one shot, makes the spike a lot easier.
-Paragon is now P/N - I'm reeaaaallly stuck on N/P versus P/N. On one hand, I get Signet of Return. On the other, I get Signet of Lost Souls and soul reaping....either way, it works well though and adds to the conditions with disease and possible bleeding. Burning Refrain was kind of a random choice - it can be given to the ranger to add burning to his mess, and it's an echo so triggers off the 1 shout/2 chants. Need a better altnerative I think to finish him.
-Dropped the Elem
-Added another monk - this one more focused on healing. Infuse Health + Zealous Benediction is real nice. Gave him blinding to just make it so the ranger isn't the only one blinding, with Glyph to make it less painful.
-Runner got a little change

Alright, come on...flame me some more with suggestions. I'm getting kinda tempted to taking the third spiker now, since the damage is lower and going more of a route of "sealing the deal". I'm really missing Shadow Shroud and Mark of Death....it's so simple, but you'd be amazed how well those 2 cause a death over someone surviving. Maybe he's the one Assassin main, losing Keystone for Shroud and some more damage from afar (Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Signet of Twilight...)