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Metatrons Gaze
20-12-2006, 23:52
Today Gail alerted us too a very hot issue: Hero's in the Halls.

Well, be it good news for you..or bad news....here it is:

Limited too 2 heros/henches in halls on team formation.





* I just wonder if the old hench way will still work?

Have at it fellow rank seekers!

B Ephekt
21-12-2006, 00:00
Waiting for heroway farmers to complain.

Also waiting for those guys who got r6+ with heros to realize that they suck at the game and can't operate in a real group.

MaximumSquid
21-12-2006, 00:12
Hero Battle needs that rating system buff now.

slakt
21-12-2006, 01:10
Good, but it doesn't save HA. A complete re-launch of the tournament is needed if you ask me.

melandrus elite
21-12-2006, 01:19
Heres the problem, they tried to nerf the complained about IWAY and then VIMWAY and tried to make rounds go faster but with each new mod, more problems come up (SF, Incoming, heros etc.) I'm glad that Anet is trying to nerf these things but sad to say, whenever they nerf one thing another just pops right the hell up.

thedrjay
21-12-2006, 01:35
God yes. It's finally over. Heroes have been nerfed!!!!! Praises be to Allah!!!!

Vexed Arcanist
21-12-2006, 01:46
I have to chuckle, very hard, at all the complaining about people using Heros. Obviously a lot of bruised egos in this community. Hard to tell your friends you lost to a bunch of bots I suppose. At least they didn't wear pink armor?

B Ephekt
21-12-2006, 03:07
I have to chuckle, very hard, at all the complaining about people using Heros. Obviously a lot of bruised egos in this community. Hard to tell your friends you lost to a bunch of bots I suppose. At least they didn't wear pink armor?
Yeah it's hilarious that some people want to actually fight other players in pvp, rather than a team comprised of 90% NPCs.

Djinn Effer
21-12-2006, 04:00
God yes. It's finally over. Heroes have been nerfed!!!!! Praises be to Allah!!!!

JIHAD JIHAD!!! 8v8!

defrule
21-12-2006, 04:25
all i have to say is...

**** YOU HEROWAY. GFG

Amor Morte
21-12-2006, 04:30
Yeah it's hilarious that some people want to actually fight other players in pvp, rather than a team comprised of 90% NPCs.

Yea shocking isn't it.

And there I was thinking that PvP meant 'Player Versus Another person and probably another 5 NPCs'.

ImSoToast
21-12-2006, 06:06
I have to chuckle, very hard, at all the complaining about people using Heros. Obviously a lot of bruised egos in this community. Hard to tell your friends you lost to a bunch of bots I suppose. At least they didn't wear pink armor?

Dude whats up with, bad day?

Anyways anytime you want to challenge our team with your heroway thats fine, and we will see how much you like it if you never win against us.

So beating heros every darn fight and waiting for the numbskull to leave was getting old fast, very fast.

Lord Natural
21-12-2006, 09:24
Skipped from the zaishen to hoh twice this evening, and have witnessed a few 1v1 hoh matches. No heroes = no activity in HA, and to those who were complaining about ID's being empty due to heroes, ID1 was autospawn all night.

I have no problem with the hero nerf itself, but anet needed to overhaul HA before doing it. It's as crappy as always now, except less active.

BrotherKurupt
21-12-2006, 09:26
Actually there weren't as many players in HA today due to several reasons:

For a while, the altar maps/relic runs were bugged

The towns were redecorated etc

World of Warcraft

B Ephekt
21-12-2006, 09:46
Skipped from the zaishen to hoh twice this evening, and have witnessed a few 1v1 hoh matches. No heroes = no activity in HA, and to those who were complaining about ID's being empty due to heroes, ID1 was autospawn all night.

I have no problem with the hero nerf itself, but anet needed to overhaul HA before doing it. It's as crappy as always now, except less active.
ID1 has been an autospawn for 3 months now as far as I've seen. But you have to take into account that a lot of people were doing Wintersday stuff today. ID1 in the snowball arena was basically a bunch of people standing around chatting between matches and spamming tigers. I was in there with my guild, and saw a lot of other high ranked players and guilds there as well.

Agreed on tombs still being ****, though. GvG is just 100 times better than 6v6.

Domina Spellbinder
21-12-2006, 10:49
Anet put the player back into PvP!!

Djinn Effer
21-12-2006, 11:00
You can't really claim HA is empty right now simply because heroes are gone, there are other factors like people being gone on holidays.. Cause yes, generally most people have lives and families; not to mention there's an in-game event that a lot of people are doing.. The whole Wintersday stuff.

Though I tombed for quite a long time today, there were a ton of skips and a lot of maps that had the minimum people, but it's still funner that way than fighting NPC's.

Parker Bsb
21-12-2006, 13:09
With heroes out of the picture I suggest you all take some time off your crusade to enjoy the holidays before re-starting the 6v6 -> 8v8 campaign :tongue:

RIP Heroway, the first of (what looks like) many good changes to come.

thedrjay
21-12-2006, 14:24
Can't forget that with the new party formation tool, it'll be infinitely easier to find a group in HA. I wasn't the group leader so I couldn't fool with it too much, but it looks very sexy.

FlyingHippo
21-12-2006, 14:31
Anet put the player back into PvP!!

What are you taling about it was Player (singular) vs. Player (singular).

NOw they're ruined it and made it PPPPPPvPPPPPP :wink:

YAY! Heroway is dead. :grin:

Xunlai Agent
21-12-2006, 16:13
I'll miss Heroway it was free fame when you faced it. Sad how many people couldn't defeat it, oh well Anet has now made up for you lack of skill defeating bots!

Domina Spellbinder
21-12-2006, 16:13
* I just wonder if the old hench way will still work?



Think not, as that trick used to be 2 players + 4 henchies, with one player leaving. Now these players need to find 3 players willing to leave.

Hmm... it prob still works as in 8v8 3 people needed to leave anyways.


What are you taling about it was Player (singular) vs. Player (singular).

NOw they're ruined it and made it PPPPPPvPPPPPP :wink:

YAY! Heroway is dead. :grin:

ah yea I ment Anet brought back playerS to PvP :wink:

Djinn Effer
21-12-2006, 19:06
Can't forget that with the new party formation tool, it'll be infinitely easier to find a group in HA. I wasn't the group leader so I couldn't fool with it too much, but it looks very sexy.

Actually to be honest it doesn't really help at all... It's the same thing as people spaming "Rx LFG!!!" only difference is now people don't have to constantly spam, they can just leave it there.

thedrjay
21-12-2006, 20:01
Since it's cross district though, that helps a bit instead of having to spam in ID1, then move to ID2, etc...

Deford
21-12-2006, 20:36
Idiotic spam will never help you find a good group, regardless of how many districts it goes across. I can be desperate for a monk but I'm never going to let the idiot who spams "WoH lfg, can be healers boon too" into my group because I can tell that there is a 90% chance he is an idiot from his lfg statement.

Deaths
24-12-2006, 03:26
Finally. But some of my Guildies are said, because they got their rank 3 through heroway. ^^. Hehe now they have no other way then to join a real group. The sad part is they still play like unranked pps. Iway was a much better way to teach them HA.

CassiusDrehyg
24-12-2006, 09:59
Heroes are gone. Now Anet can reset the fame totals of anyone who ever used them in HA to 0, and then we'll see the newbies cry more.

DoomFrost
24-12-2006, 13:25
I thought it was nice having/facing hero groups. I still balanced it out by playing with other players, not just all heros 24/7.

Oh well I'll still be in HA, isn't the end of the world. :)

Wuzzman
26-12-2006, 19:24
O plz. It doesn't take skill to get in a team. Teams are not asking for or requiring your skill. Their asking for your compliance. All their asking you to do is bring 8 specific skills in your bar and thats it. Anyone who has been herowaying so far has plenty of builds that are being run right now that doesn't even require vent. Enough said. Nerfing Heroway has not saved Ha, because Ha was dead long before Nightfalls.

thedrjay
26-12-2006, 19:51
If you don't mind me asking Wuzz, how much fame do you have? As you are always commenting on HA I was just wondering how experienced you are there.

Djinn Effer
27-12-2006, 01:36
If you don't mind me asking Wuzz, how much fame do you have? As you are always commenting on HA I was just wondering how experienced you are there.

I believe he was rank 4 last time I asked. Don't quote me on that though; something about he only GvG's and thinks HA is a joke and died before the game was even released. >.>

thedrjay
27-12-2006, 02:26
Then why would his opinion be valid if he has limited experience, that isn't relevant to the current situation.

Wuzzman
27-12-2006, 03:38
interesting. You don't debate the point but simply bash the person making it. I take it that the opinion it self is right you just have a problem being told the truth by someone who isn't a "Ha elite".

defrule
27-12-2006, 03:50
You're entitled to your opinion, everyone has different views. You thought HA was dead before 6v6 but my opinion was that it was very alive and kicking.

Pheryel
27-12-2006, 13:07
the problem with HA is that people are to prone to just seeing problems and giving up when really all you needa do is to addapt and carry on. i been doing PvP and GvG since beta. and there has always been people whining about ****... people use to complain about spike builds till perople learned to use infuse health...... or the spirit spam builds befor people packed metior shower.... all these diffrent things... learn to addapt and stop you whinng please... the high ranks will all agree that if you wanna be an acheaver. you need to think outside the box....

thedrjay
27-12-2006, 14:25
interesting. You don't debate the point but simply bash the person making it. I take it that the opinion it self is right you just have a problem being told the truth by someone who isn't a "Ha elite".

Not at all. I think your conclusions are completely wrong and as you have not participated in HA for a very long time as it was "dead before 6 v 6" and "if you want to 8v8 just GvG" that your biases are showing within the thread. I would take the opinion of someone who is currently Ha'ing within the 6v6 environment as something more relevant. You state that "HA was dead prior to heroes being included" yet you see less player participating in that environment now then prior to the change to a 6v6 environment. You stated that people would not return to HA when Heroes were removed, but now due to the restrictions placed on HA with a maximum of 2 heroes/henchmen in a group, you are starting to see more districts populated in both the american and ID districts and it is no longer people screaming that they are LFG searing flames. I see the prevelance of the smoke trap/spirit builds, however this build at least requires more than 2 character classes. I see Zergway being played, ele balls spikes, and balanced builds.

Therefore I can only conclude that as someone who does not actively participate in the enviroment, that your knowledge is limited to what you read in forums, and therefore is not particulary relevant to what is being discussed.

B Ephekt
27-12-2006, 22:05
interesting. You don't debate the point but simply bash the person making it. I take it that the opinion it self is right you just have a problem being told the truth by someone who isn't a "Ha elite".Except that he actually has a point; someone who is still ~rank 4 after almost 2 years obviously hasn't played in tombs enough to make accurate statements about it.

Lord Natural
27-12-2006, 23:27
the problem with HA is that people are to prone to just seeing problems and giving up when really all you needa do is to addapt and carry on. i been doing PvP and GvG since beta. and there has always been people whining about ****... people use to complain about spike builds till perople learned to use infuse health...... or the spirit spam builds befor people packed metior shower.... all these diffrent things... learn to addapt and stop you whinng please... the high ranks will all agree that if you wanna be an acheaver. you need to think outside the box....

The problem is with the arena itself, not the builds people are using. You can adapt your builds easily, but that doesn't fix a broken arena or make it any more fun. There's no build running around in HA now that's any more unbeatable than past fotm's. There are some skills that are unbalanced right now, but this has always been the case between skill updates. What people dislike is the team arena feel, broken tower and scarred earth, map skips galore, etc. etc. Gaile's thread has a better summary of the issues.

Wuzzman
27-12-2006, 23:55
Not at all. I think your conclusions are completely wrong and as you have not participated in HA for a very long time as it was "dead before 6 v 6" and "if you want to 8v8 just GvG" that your biases are showing within the thread. I would take the opinion of someone who is currently Ha'ing within the 6v6 environment as something more relevant. You state that "HA was dead prior to heroes being included" yet you see less player participating in that environment now then prior to the change to a 6v6 environment. You stated that people would not return to HA when Heroes were removed, but now due to the restrictions placed on HA with a maximum of 2 heroes/henchmen in a group, you are starting to see more districts populated in both the american and ID districts and it is no longer people screaming that they are LFG searing flames. I see the prevelance of the smoke trap/spirit builds, however this build at least requires more than 2 character classes. I see Zergway being played, ele balls spikes, and balanced builds.

Therefore I can only conclude that as someone who does not actively participate in the enviroment, that your knowledge is limited to what you read in forums, and therefore is not particulary relevant to what is being discussed.

hmmm when did I say the bold section? I actually want ha to return to 8v8, 6v6 is a sad joke. I'm not even going to argue the rest of such a sad post. Builds that don't even require vent and that is called quality pvp. People who find those build idiotic once again have no choice but to wait around for 5 friend/guildies willing to HA to get online. Wow I wonder what a good gvg match should be like. 8v8 W/Mo's mending each other to death :rolleyes:

thedrjay
28-12-2006, 02:15
Yes, I again forgot that in your world, HA is populated with noobs that don't use vent and use retarded builds.

Pheryel
28-12-2006, 02:22
i agree HA is filled with noobs that know nothing about skill but lets talk realisticly. 6v6 is actualy harder than 8v8 because less people to do the same tasks as there was for 8 people. so realy most of what your complaining about is you cant seam to win because your missing 2 people from the builds your use to. please stop being part of the problem and be part of the solution. be a better player. not a better whiner

Djinn Effer
28-12-2006, 03:33
i agree HA is filled with noobs that know nothing about skill but lets talk realisticly. 6v6 is actualy harder than 8v8 because less people to do the same tasks as there was for 8 people. so realy most of what your complaining about is you cant seam to win because your missing 2 people from the builds your use to. please stop being part of the problem and be part of the solution. be a better player. not a better whiner

That's remotely true that HA is harder because the lack of utility that was available before; however, that creates problems that increases the rock, paper, scissors effect. Before you could win by how you played, which was actually the "good players being better teams" rather than better build being better team.

I'm sorry but it was absolutely better before. By the way, what does whining about whining accomplish? You whine yourself. QQ

Metatrons Gaze
03-01-2007, 19:26
I must say, that I used hero way, didnt get R3 that way..but because I was able to use heroway, I became more interested in the true HA experience.

Now, I am R3, and totally understand alot more about the in's and out's of HA, what people want, and how too run the maps. I made many new friends, and have no problems getting in groups. In fact, I get PMed for HA all the time now and have enjoyed running many differnt builds.

So, in reprise, heroway only got me more interested, when it was nerfed, I was only bummed till I relized I COULD have more FUN with real PEOPLE. Attitude is everything, and people in HA make what HA is. Heros dont make for a good culture in PvP, neither do negitive people.

SoMW ftw lol

Your Fear Is Big
17-01-2007, 18:16
if u lost to heroway u should re think u lost to heroes? hmm lol u shouldn't lose to heroway

megages
18-01-2007, 17:52
That's remotely true that HA is harder because the lack of utility that was available before; however, that creates problems that increases the rock, paper, scissors effect. Before you could win by how you played, which was actually the "good players being better teams" rather than better build being better team.

I'm sorry but it was absolutely better before. By the way, what does whining about whining accomplish? You whine yourself. QQ

While I agree to a point, the "lack of utility" part needs expanding on. The average team/s compromise of 6 people. A standard party would take: 2 Healers, 2 Core damage dealers and 2 Utility players (usually an extra damage dealer and a misc~ or two extra damage dealers). The problem was, and still is the same as it has been for a very long time. Read what I just wrote but this time look at the words in bold, notice a pattern amongst most builds? The two monks usually, if not always, lack attack skills. If you remove the 4 attackers from the party, you are left with 2 people who really cannot do much of anything. Now look at GvG, 8 players. More and more teams are taking 3 monks, and an additional player who can also heal in some way.

The real problem for many people is that they cannot run a GvG style build, in the hall of heroes. There are many reasons for this, and the inability to run a GvG style build in Heroes ascent is what "kills" heroes ascent. Now I do not claim this is the only issue with Heroes ascent, but lets look at a of the map for example, and we'll use searing flames as a build.

Capture the relic.
Well not much happening here, the SF has to kill the whole enemy team, their priest, and probably their hero. The enemy team has too do what? Just survive and run the relic. While surviving against SF is easier said than done, it is not impossible. But if you are the team playing SF, matches like these are simply the end of you more often than not.

The real killer for most people is that Heroes ascent takes forward thinking, and a tactical mind. However most people cannot comprehend a playstyle and build that can not only overcome the challenges they will face in heroes ascent, but also be able to hold it's own against flavour of the month builds which suddenly decimate them with a force that would require forward thinking(Think back to the 3 monks+extra healer) to counter it, and allow the build to do all the things it still needs to do.
Now this is in no way an insult to anybody, being unable to comprehend both known problems and unexpected surprises is a difficult thing to do. How do you pre-empt a team of searing flamers, when the team after them is using a stone daggers spike build? and you need to get through both teams, then run a relic, while balancing your team. See the flaw? The outside factors (Think: relic run) make the game of 'rock paper sissors' harder to play.

I do not see the solution being to disallow heroes(Hero teams), nor do I see the answer being to remove things like the relic run. Instead, I see the answer being in either:

Restricting players to only 1 of each class for example, only one monk but NOT only one /monk.

Creating larger, more diverse, and more hazardous enviroments, making games harder to win

Splitting Heroes ascent into either tiers based on rank/fame or into diffrent styles of arenas.

Allow me to elaborate, You can build a SF build with only 1 elementalist, but why bother? all the other /elementalists will be weaker in comparison. This 1 class type only would not only make people think more about balance, but give MANY people, and there classes a chance to shine. Ritulists can cast healing spells too. Warriors can defend party members too. By restricting what people can bring, people would be forced to think more about how they play their cards(team), than how many elementalists are in district 2.

Harder Heroes ascent means just that, make it a final challenge for the elite players. Giving them something to focus on, and/or hone there GvG skills. As good as most players think they are, being a great player takes time and dedication, not just a new build because the last one lost. It would also ring closer to the true theme, "Heroes ascent", because only worthy teams would ever make it through harder challenges.

Games based on fame/rank. New people need a place to start, experienced players need challenges to hone there skills. At the moment all rank is for, is making nice circus animals, and bragging about "how good you are" because you sat back and healed for the last 1000 games. No offence to anyone who worked hard for there rank(including healers who work hard). This would also remove the need for "Seeking Rx players for team" from the old reasoming being "if there Rx then they probably know what to do by now" to being something more constructive. This would in my honest opinion, help alot of people in alot of ways.

Or splitting arenas for the same reasons but allowing people to choose with match they want to play. Good at relic matches? try your hand in a relic match. Like big deathmatches? do the map against 4 teams. This means people know what to expect beforehand in there type of match, and also allow them to have a game when they want to, not to have to play through a series of games.

I encourage, and welcome all kinds of feedback on my ideas, I only ask that you are as discriptive as possible in your arguements and that you are prepared for my long replys. :grin:

thedrjay
18-01-2007, 19:53
I do not see the solution being to disallow heroes(Hero teams), nor do I see the answer being to remove things like the relic run. Instead, I see the answer being in either:

Restricting players to only 1 of each class for example, only one monk but NOT only one /monk.

The restriction to heroes was made because PvP is a contest between players and not bots.

Class Restriction would serve no purpose other than limiting the types of builds run in one specific environment. As it would serve no other purpose, it has no place in PvP. It does not help promote balance it merely places unnecessary restrictions on a team.


Creating larger, more diverse, and more hazardous enviroments, making games harder to win

The contest is between 2 ( or 3 or 4 teams depending on the map) teams and the skills of the various participants. Introducing environmental effects would serve to further reduce build configuration as you must adjust your build to deal with said effect. This again restricts build making as you must remove either offense, defense, or utility from your build to compensate and therefore serves no purpose in PvP.

[QOUTE=megaages]Splitting Heroes ascent into either tiers based on rank/fame or into diffrent styles of arenas.[/QUOTE]

Why the need to introduce more segregation into PvP? It serves no purpose other than to alienate people.


Allow me to elaborate, You can build a SF build with only 1 elementalist, but why bother? all the other /elementalists will be weaker in comparison. This 1 class type only would not only make people think more about balance, but give MANY people, and there classes a chance to shine. Ritulists can cast healing spells too. Warriors can defend party members too. By restricting what people can bring, people would be forced to think more about how they play their cards(team), than how many elementalists are in district 2.

Again, this forces people to make substandard builds. Why are you trying to restrict what people choose to play or create in their builds. It serves no purpose and therefore doesn't belong in PvP.


Harder Heroes ascent means just that, make it a final challenge for the elite players. Giving them something to focus on, and/or hone there GvG skills. As good as most players think they are, being a great player takes time and dedication, not just a new build because the last one lost. It would also ring closer to the true theme, "Heroes ascent", because only worthy teams would ever make it through harder challenges.

Heroes Ascent is a different venue than GvG. I do not play HA to hone my GvG skills as the playstyles and builds are wildly different. If I wished to hone my GvG skills I would play in scrimmages against other teams so that I am practicing in the same environment in which I am competing.

You may be well intentioned however these suggestions would do nothing to correct the environment.

Harshateja
19-01-2007, 01:22
Can't forget that with the new party formation tool, it'll be infinitely easier to find a group in HA. I wasn't the group leader so I couldn't fool with it too much, but it looks very sexy.

LOL. I thought I saw one person use it that one time...I thought the party system was cool at first but the more I compared it to WoW's lfg system, the more I realized that the implementation was HORRIBLE.

And btw, I don't see why people are complaining about builds being used alot. Since the emphasis in Guild Wars is about skills and because skills are always within 2 second reach, you can expect people to always use the best combos. I'm not sure what you are attempting to attain by saying "Nerf xyZ. Its too overused." There is no such thing as a true "balanced" build simply because in order to win in GUild Wars, you have to do one thing really well. Doing multiple things in GW leads to failure - ALWAYS.