PDA

View Full Version : General Prot monk PvE build required



Assassini
25-12-2006, 08:06
Merry Christmas guys! Waiting for my presents ;-)

Ive had a healer monk for ages and so am fine with that, but just made a prot monk to try that through the game.

Prob is there are loads of builds around which may or may not be PvE, anyone got some tried and tested builds that def work?

Think of me as a noob, so explain rationale please. ;-)

Zealous Rain
25-12-2006, 18:19
When I prot, I like to bring along womsething like this:

Attributes:
Protection Prayers: 16
Divine Favour: 11
Inspiration Magic: 8

Skills:
Zealous Benediction
Reversal of Fortune
Shield of Abosrbtion
Shielding Hands/Protective Sprit/Spirit Bond*
Aegis
Dismiss Condtion
Inspiried Hex
Rebirth


*I occasionally switch between these 3, and I've been using Spirit Bond less and less after the nerf. Between Shielding Hands and Protective Spirit is just pure choice.

Some Prot Monks also like to bring along Gift of Health as an extra heal. You can take out a skill of choice and rearrange your attributes to make it work however you like.


Hope this helps :grin::grin::grin:

Age
25-12-2006, 19:40
I would use Protective Spirit over Spirit Bond and it depend if it is condition heavy or hex heavy.Don't forget reversal of fortune is you most important skill and in PvE you can still use boon/protect although it depends on your secoundary.

Forbiddian
25-12-2006, 20:53
Wow, 8 in Inspiration is a HUGE investment when your only skill is Inspired Hex. That could be an extra 2 points into DF (6 hps every single cast).

I replaced Inspired Hex and Prot Spirit with Glyph of Lesser Energy and Holy Veil. Depending on the mission, sometimes Prot Spirit is better than SoA.

EDIT: Oops, wasn't paying attention, I also took out Rebirth and added Signet of Devotion. SoD never leaves my bar.

GoLE combos into ZB, and Aegis (nets you 20 energy for a non-elite). The cooldown get in the way occasionally, but on the whole, it provides much better every management than Inspired Hex and Signet of Devotion. With this build you can literally spam ZB on targets with more than 50% health and not worry about the energy-drain.

dansamy
25-12-2006, 21:34
Mo/E ZB Prot

16 Prot
13 DF

Zealous Benediction
Dismiss Condition
Spirit Bond
Signet of Devotion (This never leaves my monk's bar.)
Remove Hex/Smite Hex/Holy Veil (Your pick)
Aegis
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Rebirth

Template String: AjJxjh8cp30axSSLJggMkJA

(To use the Template String, copy and paste the entire string into a blank .txt (Notepad) file. Name it what you want to name it. (Mo/E ZB Prot is a good choice.) Move the file into your GW program folder into the subfolder Guild Wars/Templates/Skills. If GW is running when you do this, you will need to close GW "x out" and restart in order to use the new template.)

Almost all of the skills are swappable for things you'd prefer to run in their place. (Ie: Prot Spirit or SoA instead of Spirit Bond.)

Lytha
26-12-2006, 00:51
I've been using the following for a long while now:

15 DF, 13 Prot

Sig of Devotion
Dismiss Condition
RoF
Life Sheath
Watchful Healing (for Olias, mostly)
Divine Boon
Sig of Capture or Smite Hex
Rebirth

It worked well enough that I didn't bother to bring a 2nd monk all the way through Kurzickstan, only Prof. Gai as a secondary healer. Eve was necessary though, and I made my Dunkoro use Succor on me occasionally (he's a smiter with plenty of energy.)

The few times I had a 2nd monk with me, they just annoyed the heck out of me. Danika was just standing there and doing basically nothing, Redemptor Karl infected the caster group by means of Draw Conditions, used on the lone diseased Devona in the front line before I could dismiss it.

It's not "general prot" though. "general prot" doesn't use Divine Boon; you'd replace that with Aegis, replace Watchful Healing & Sig of Devotion with Shielding Hands or Protective Spirit.

Jacobbs
26-12-2006, 01:26
13 Prot
10 Divine
11 Healing
4 Tactics

Dismiss Condition
Zealous Benidiction
Holy Veil
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Spirit Bond/Protective Spirit
Balanced Stance/Glyph of Lesser Energy (in this case, attributes would change to 13/11/11)
Shield of Absorption


While Signet of Devotion is nice, you slip into a habit of using it too much. It leads to over healing, and worse, a habit of over healing. Switching it to Veil has really helped me in terms of preventing over-healing. I would suggest that all of you try to monk without Signet of Devotion and try to only heal when you have to.

Skill Template (Mo/W version): ATQRLfLUr0spv01kw4MRLOXurA

[edit]
As you can probably tell, most of the monks posted here have an element of healing in them. Running a pure protection prayers monk usually isn't a good idea, because you have no way to restore health. When running with a 3 monk backline, it is possible for a monk to run pure protection, but generally there are not very many 3 monk backlines. (And if so, the third monk is usually a passive protection prayers like bonds)

dansamy
26-12-2006, 18:53
While Signet of Devotion is nice, you slip into a habit of using it too much. It leads to over healing, and worse, a habit of over healing. Switching it to Veil has really helped me in terms of preventing over-healing. I would suggest that all of you try to monk without Signet of Devotion and try to only heal when you have to.

I keep signet of devotion on my bar for the mere fact that it is one of the best non-elite energy management skills a monk can bring. Using the build I posted above, I rarely need to rely on a BiP/BR or succor. Even in heavy battles, with good use of SigDevo and and GoLE/ZB, I rarely find myself under 50% energy. Play smarter, not harder.

Jacobbs
26-12-2006, 19:26
I keep signet of devotion on my bar for the mere fact that it is one of the best non-elite energy management skills a monk can bring. Using the build I posted above, I rarely need to rely on a BiP/BR or succor. Even in heavy battles, with good use of SigDevo and and GoLE/ZB, I rarely find myself under 50% energy. Play smarter, not harder.

You see, rolling without Devo is playing smarter. As far as I'm concerned, Devo is a crutch for most monks that really don't know how to heal effectively. I mean, Devo is free, so there is no energy being wasted, but time is. Define "heavy battles" before using it as a basis for comparison, because it is such a vague term. With good skill usage, a bar without Devo can perform as well as a bar with one. Especially with a ZB/GoLE build, you usually don't carry any hex removal, and Holy Veil is a very good sub for Devo. In heavy pve battles, I rarely go below 50% energy aswell, and this is without Devo. So you tell me, who's playing smarter?


[edit]

Your build lacks Reversal of Fortune, which is one of the best skills in the prot line. If you're using a prot bar, why not include it? Take it over your Hex removal spot, or put it in over Devo. A prot bar without RoF is laughable imo.

click
26-12-2006, 19:36
You see, rolling without Devo is playing smarter. As far as I'm concerned, Devo is a crutch for most monks that really don't know how to heal effectively. I mean, Devo is free, so there is no energy being wasted, but time is. Define "heavy battles" before using it as a basis for comparison, because it is such a vague term. With good skill usage, a bar without Devo can perform as well as a bar with one. Especially with a ZB/GoLE build, you usually don't carry any hex removal, and Holy Veil is a very good sub for Devo. In heavy pve battles, I rarely go below 50% energy aswell, and this is without Devo. So you tell me, who's playing smarter?


[edit]

Your build lacks Reversal of Fortune, which is one of the best skills in the prot line. If you're using a prot bar, why not include it? Take it over your Hex removal spot, or put it in over Devo. A prot bar without RoF is laughable imo.

Well I'm sure Dansamy could rip your argument to shreds without my help, but I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. RoF is a gamble. It could negate and heal all 84 damage, or it could trigger off of a wand hit and negate/heal 8 damage. When I find myself monking with RoF on my bar in PvE, I use it more often than not simply for the DF trigger or if everything else is recharging. A bar without RoF is NOT gimped. I would submit that RoF is more of a crutch by your definition than Sig Devo.

Sig Devo is an amazing skill. There is a reason it has a semi-permanent place in most experienced and intelligent monk's bars. It is a free, guaranteed, nonconditional heal in the divine favor line. Seriously, if you can't see why that makes it worth bringing, then I give up.

Jacobbs
26-12-2006, 20:48
Well I'm sure Dansamy could rip your argument to shreds without my help, but I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. RoF is a gamble. It could negate and heal all 84 damage, or it could trigger off of a wand hit and negate/heal 8 damage. When I find myself monking with RoF on my bar in PvE, I use it more often than not simply for the DF trigger or if everything else is recharging. A bar without RoF is NOT gimped. I would submit that RoF is more of a crutch by your definition than Sig Devo.

Sig Devo is an amazing skill. There is a reason it has a semi-permanent place in most experienced and intelligent monk's bars. It is a free, guaranteed, nonconditional heal in the divine favor line. Seriously, if you can't see why that makes it worth bringing, then I give up.


RoF is one of the many skills that can have the potential to save you countless amounts of energy. The fact that if can trigger off wand hits doesn't defer it's usefulness. I still think that bar listed would be stronger with an RoF in it somewhere, however; that may be personal opinion. You state that Devo has a semi-permanent place in any experienced and intelligent monk's bars, yet RoF isn't? This makes me question your own experience and intelligence. Devo is worth bringing, I'm not saying it's not. But in the context of that bar, there are stronger skills to compliment the build. While Devo may be an option, I would still find RoF/Veil to be stronger, especially since the bar listed does not have that much bar pushing power (only ZB). This is assuming your partner monk is running a pure healing build to compliment you.

Age
26-12-2006, 21:36
Wow, 8 in Inspiration is a HUGE investment when your only skill is Inspired Hex. That could be an extra 2 points into DF (6 hps every single cast).

I replaced Inspired Hex and Prot Spirit with Glyph of Lesser Energy and Holy Veil. Depending on the mission, sometimes Prot Spirit is better than SoA.

EDIT: Oops, wasn't paying attention, I also took out Rebirth and added Signet of Devotion. SoD never leaves my bar.

GoLE combos into ZB, and Aegis (nets you 20 energy for a non-elite). The cooldown get in the way occasionally, but on the whole, it provides much better every management than Inspired Hex and Signet of Devotion. With this build you can literally spam ZB on targets with more than 50% health and not worry about the energy-drain.
What do you replace rebirth with?Signet of Devotion might be nice for a spammable free energy heal but it heals less than say a Warriors healig signet even if at DF is at 12 or 13.There are far better way to protect someone with out SoD and the OP could consider going to be bonder useing Life Bond or Barrier I prefer Bond along with Balthazar Spirit and yes Bonetti's the elite being Blessed Light or if you take Barrier.Don't forget Blessed Signet.

DF 12
Protect 13
Smiting 4
Tactics 4 to 5.I usually need my template in front to fo me but something like that.This is good for active
RoF,Life Sheath,Mend Condition or Ailment,PoS,Healing Touch,Aegis,Bonetti's and Res Chant.That is my general active protect build.

Deford
26-12-2006, 23:48
Innocent is right that any prot bar needs reversal of fortune. In fact it could be said that any bar needs reversal of fortune. It is fast, spammable, and amazing when it comes to stopping damage. If anet wanted to nerf almost every gvg teams defense they'd just have to nerf this skill and things would start dropping like flies. They could make it an elite spell and it would still be used, that is how good it is.

Where I disagree with him is on Signet of Devotion, I don't think of it as a crutch but a cane that makes irresistable to the ladies like the one House has. He has a point that some monks will begin to depend on it and use it to get them out of overhealing mistakes, it also teaches you to read the way the game is going so that you know when you can afford to take 2 seconds cast it and when you can't. It also is energy management which you need to learn how to use in order to become an effective monk. I am of the opinion that from a learning perspective this latter 2 are more important than the former. You can design pve builds without it, and given the nature of the harder areas I often do, but I would never tell someone to take it out of their build. Either way you decide to go you should make sure your bar is area dependant since the nightfall areas tend to be based on overload and to a lesser extent so are the earlier chapters.

I'll post a few bars below but first I'd like to explain the most important concept of monking in pve... keep your hp and all purpose ac as high as possible and always keep something between you and the mobiles. The games AI is still easy to manipulate, it will go for low ac targets and then go for low hp targets. If you keep yourself with more hp than the ele on your team the stray agro will go for the ele instead of you and make your job easier. This means you should think twice about using superior runes and shouldn't try to add damage, only prevent it/heal it.

So here are the 4 generic prot bars I use in pve. I mix it up a lot in pve depending on how much of my heart is in it (I hate pve but I like using a pve monk for gvg):

Bar 1: High damage areas

Skills:
Zealous Benediction, Gift of Health, Reversal of Fortune, Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorption, dismiss condition, holy veil, rebirth (or channeling)


Attributes:
Prot=12+1+1
Heal=9+1
div=9+1
insp= 3 (if it is used healing drops by 1 to bring it to 5)

This bar really makes the health bar moves, can stop a lot of damage and the high prot gives you a 7 second SoA which combined with the prot spirit can keep a proper tank up for ages. This works because SoA triggers after prot spirit and this means your tank will start to get hit for 0 after 10 or so hits. In hex light or non-existant areas you can rip veil out for i-hex (put points into inspiration) or for another mesmer e-management skill. I use channeling since I have the talent to sit next to several mobs and not pick up agro, and will take skills like rebirth off my bar if I get an ok from whomever the group is lead by. ZB is great energy management in high pressure areas, if a target is above 50% you use reversal or gift of health on them but the instant someone drops below 50% use ZB to move their bar up by a large ammount. You may need to throw a 1/4 second prot on them first though. That is why this build doesn't have signet of devotion.

Bar 2: Hex Heavy Areas:

Skills:
Divert Hexes, Gift of Health, Reversal of Fortune, shield of absorption, Aegis, dismiss condition, Glyph of Lesser Energy, rebirth


Attributes:
Prot=12+1+1
Heal=9+1
div=9+1


This bar will rip an insane ammount of hexes off your team and help with the pressure because of the long duration Aegis. Prot is that high because 14 is a breakpoint for Aegis, if you're not going to use aegis then drop prot to get a better gift of health. The key is to use glyph of lesser before aegis and before divert hexes if need be. The pvp version of this bar includes a 10 energy prot (that means prot spirit or spirit bond) and that allows you to spread prots. The pve version does not because you know ahead of time that there will be a lot of hexes and spending the glpyh of lesser on the 10 energy divert will always be a possibility (or you are using the wrong build for the area)

Bar 3: Condition Heavy Areas

Skills:
restore condition, Gift of Health, Reversal of Fortune, spirit bond, signet of devotion, dismiss condition, inspired hex, rebirth (or channeling)


Attributes:
Prot=11+1+1
Heal=8+1
div=9+1
inspiration=8


There are no break points worth going to 14 prot for so prot goes down and inspiration goes up. iHex goes in because condition overload areas generally don't have hexes worth removing in pve (a few exceptions) that can be handled by a single veil and free rip is nice. Restore condition is for removing conditions from other people, dismiss is for yourself and it is also your self heal. If you make a mistake and several things agro you, cast spirit bond on yourself and then use dismiss condition to heal yourself. Signet of Devotion goes in because this bar lacks real energy management. Please note that a lot of the skills on these 3 bars are almost identical because the three cornerstones of prot bars are reversal of fortune, a duration prot (usually prot spirit/spirit bond... sometimes SoA), and gift of health (to make bars move)

Bar 4: Generic Areas

Skills:
Shield of Absorption, Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Dismiss Condition, Offering of Blood, Signet of Devotion, Divine boon, Holy Veil


Attributes:
Div=11+1+1 (+3 for putting up boon)
Prot= 10+1 (+1 swap headpieces after boon goes up)
Blood=9

This bar could be called, "I miss diving boon" or "I miss offering of blood" because both of them are nothing compared to what they were in their prime. They still work more or less in pve areas without a lot of enchantment hate and nothing can match it's combination of speed and power. Generally something needs to leave the bar in order to put in rebirth, because people always want that on their pve monks. What goes out is usually devotion but sometimes I just say @#(* hex removal and take out veil. It also makes sense to put in a prot spirit instead of one of the 5 energy prots (SoA and guardian), but the 5 energy prots do me fine in the majority of generic pve encounters. The trick is to use a +enchant duration and HSR (preferably for blood). It will give you more energy than any other build and by the time it is needed the agro should be set on things other than you. This has gigantic effective heals so be sure not to over heal or you will have to hit offering more than you should.

dansamy
27-12-2006, 00:21
RoF is one of the many skills that can have the potential to save you countless amounts of energy. The fact that if can trigger off wand hits doesn't defer it's usefulness. I still think that bar listed would be stronger with an RoF in it somewhere, however; that may be personal opinion. You state that Devo has a semi-permanent place in any experienced and intelligent monk's bars, yet RoF isn't? This makes me question your own experience and intelligence. Devo is worth bringing, I'm not saying it's not. But in the context of that bar, there are stronger skills to compliment the build. While Devo may be an option, I would still find RoF/Veil to be stronger, especially since the bar listed does not have that much bar pushing power (only ZB). This is assuming your partner monk is running a pure healing build to compliment you.

RoF is a utility skill that can take the place of something else on the bar. That skill bar is by no means set in stone. The problem with RoF is that it is so easily spammable that an inexperienced monk can get into serious energy hurt by over-spamming it. The OP stated he was new to prot. Players new to prot need to bear in mind that the primary function of a prot monk is to prevent damage before it occurs. Thus, skills like Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorbtion, Spirit Bond, RoF are pure gold. ZB honestly has no place in the prot line and I have no idea why Anet put it there. However, since they were kind enough to give us a free WoH-ish skill, make good use of it. Most prot monk bars will also need to include some method of condition removal and some method of hex removal. Veil bugs me because I have to manually double-click to pull it off, so I rarely bring it except to GvG where my build is often designed to work in conjunction with another very specific skillbar. If you'd like to tweak the bar I posted previously here's a good template to utilize:

ZB
Condition removal skill
Melee avoidance skill (aegis, guardian)
Hex removal
Dmg reduction
Energy management/utility/dmg reduction
Energy management
Res

Nothing is ever set in stone. In PvE, all you need to do is outsmart or outlast the AI and you win. Even with mending and healing breeze on your skill bar.

Age
27-12-2006, 02:10
Originally Posted by Deford
Innocent is right that any prot bar needs reversal of fortune. In fact it could be said that any bar needs reversal of fortune. It is fast, spammable, and amazing when it comes to stopping damage. If anet wanted to nerf almost every gvg teams defense they'd just have to nerf this skill and things would start dropping like flies. They could make it an elite spell and it would still be used, that is how good it is.
Reversal of Fortune is not a spell it is an enchant like most protection skills are.

By the way on my Bonder iI do use it as well as Guardian.

Jacobbs
27-12-2006, 04:06
RoF is a utility skill that can take the place of something else on the bar. That skill bar is by no means set in stone. The problem with RoF is that it is so easily spammable that an inexperienced monk can get into serious energy hurt by over-spamming it. The OP stated he was new to prot. Players new to prot need to bear in mind that the primary function of a prot monk is to prevent damage before it occurs. Thus, skills like Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorbtion, Spirit Bond, RoF are pure gold. ZB honestly has no place in the prot line and I have no idea why Anet put it there. However, since they were kind enough to give us a free WoH-ish skill, make good use of it. Most prot monk bars will also need to include some method of condition removal and some method of hex removal. Veil bugs me because I have to manually double-click to pull it off, so I rarely bring it except to GvG where my build is often designed to work in conjunction with another very specific skillbar. If you'd like to tweak the bar I posted previously here's a good template to utilize:

ZB
Condition removal skill
Melee avoidance skill (aegis, guardian)
Hex removal
Dmg reduction
Energy management/utility/dmg reduction
Energy management
Res

Nothing is ever set in stone. In PvE, all you need to do is outsmart or outlast the AI and you win. Even with mending and healing breeze on your skill bar.

Your argument makes almost no sense. You would give a noob Prot Spirit or Spirit Bond over RoF? Your logic fails because Both SB and PS, I would also consider spammable. They cost more, and their effect can be said to be on the same level as RoF. Yes, it's not set it stone, however; there is a reason it is in almost EVERY monk bar. Going by your logic, RoF is even a better choice, because not only does it PREVENT DAMAGE, it also HEALS IT. Please try again. So basically your logic is, purposely give a new monk a gimped bar so they start off learning bad habits?

Veil is one of the BEST hex removal skills in the game. Can't micro an enchant remove? I mean really, it takes less than 1 second, and it's not like the maintained enchantment area is random. Veil is the most flexible hex removal in the game, imo.


Innocent is right that any prot bar needs reversal of fortune. In fact it could be said that any bar needs reversal of fortune. It is fast, spammable, and amazing when it comes to stopping damage. If anet wanted to nerf almost every gvg teams defense they'd just have to nerf this skill and things would start dropping like flies. They could make it an elite spell and it would still be used, that is how good it is.

Where I disagree with him is on Signet of Devotion, I don't think of it as a crutch but a cane that makes irresistable to the ladies like the one House has. He has a point that some monks will begin to depend on it and use it to get them out of overhealing mistakes, it also teaches you to read the way the game is going so that you know when you can afford to take 2 seconds cast it and when you can't. It also is energy management which you need to learn how to use in order to become an effective monk. I am of the opinion that from a learning perspective this latter 2 are more important than the former. You can design pve builds without it, and given the nature of the harder areas I often do, but I would never tell someone to take it out of their build. Either way you decide to go you should make sure your bar is area dependant since the nightfall areas tend to be based on overload and to a lesser extent so are the earlier chapters.

While I agree that Signet of Devotion should be used in that way to learn how to use your time effectively, and learning how to manage your energy. Eventually, that convience needs to get off your bar so you learn what it means to be effective with your time. In GUild Wars, there are three resources in GvG: collective mortal status (Health/NPCs/DP, etc), collective energy status, and time. While I was not demanding that he take Devo out of the bar, the missing RoF on that bar makes me feel that an RoF/Veil would have been stronger than Devo/Smite Hex or what have you.

Devo is a great skill. It's essential to learn, but not to be relied on.

Ryuujinx
27-12-2006, 05:01
Reversal of Fortune is not a spell it is an enchant like most protection skills are.

By the way on my Bonder iI do use it as well as Guardian.


Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, the next time target ally would take damage, that ally gains that amount of Health instead, maximum 15...67.

Also, Signet of Devotion Never leaves my bar, it's my E-Mangement. I don't overheal, but that's a 77 heal that I don't have to pay for and in such is e-mangement,

dansamy
27-12-2006, 05:03
PS, although it has a relatively short recharge, doesn't need to be spammed. Once it's applied to the target in need of it, it remains there for its duration or until removed by an enemy. Any reasonably intelligent person wouldn't cast PS on a target 3-4x in a row. It's not needed. Also the OP is asking for a PvE prot bar. A PvE prot monk doesn't need to concern over making red bars go up. He needs to prevent them from going down. The best skills for that function have already been mentioned: PS, SBond, SoA, Aegis, Guardian, RC, Martyr. Anet just happened to have temporarily lost sight of the function of protection and gave us an extremely powerful healing spell in the form of ZB. He doesn't need the skill bar (or rationale) for common GvG builds. He'll overspam RoF, run out of energy and be back on here complaining that the skill bar doesn't work when both you and I know it's simply his execution of it. If the OP would prefer to drop SigDevo in favor of RoF, that's certainly his choice. I posted what I often run and I don't require the aid of a BiP/BR, etc.


I, personally, find Veil annoying to use. That doesn't make me incapable of using it nor does it mean I devalue its utility and function. Likewise with RoF. I bring RoF in PvE, but it depends on where I am going and who I am monking with. I often find that PuG monks lack anything resembling energy management or even good sense. So I tend to build my bar in such a way to cover their woeful shortcomings. Honestly, I've monked with one who thought Ether Prodigy was good energy management on a monk primary. She was also using meteor, god help us all. If you'll kindly note: I also reposted my "basic template" so that the OP can then cherry pick the skills he prefers to fill the roles required. Why you continue to argue when both SigDevo and RoF are good useful skills each having their own places is beyond me. You'd think I'd bitten off your e-peen. It's not a gimped bar. It's just as useful with PS/SoA/SBond as it would be if you subbed in RoF instead of one of those. RoF doesn't automatically make it the "best skill bar in the game" just because you stuck RoF in there.

I don't view SigDevo as either a cane or a crutch. With attributes often spread thin into 3-4 lines in most PvP skill bars these days, one is hard pressed to find a better replacement for a free heal. SigDevo also has a home on almost EVERY monk bar in the PvP game, so going by your argument, we should build something like this:

ZB
RoF
SigDevo
PS/Sbond
Holy Veil
Res skill (We are talking about PvE here although I actually don't bring a res to any PvE area except missions and UW/FoW/DoA.)
Dismiss Condition
Aegis/Guardian

With this bar we have: 1 powerful heal with built in energy management if we use it correctly, 1 unconditionally free (albeit slow) heal, 2 forms of dmg reduction, 1 hex removal, 1 condition removal, 1 melee avoidance (party or target) and one res. All our bases are covered and if we aren't a completely mindless button smasher, we'll not need Mr. BiP to cover our failure to manage our own available resources effectively. If you want to split into 3 attribute lines to bring GoH, I'd drop the res for it.

PLEASE quit referring to me as "he". I find it very offensive that one assumes I am male. My name is Amy. Most people in-game refer to me by my monk's name: Maya.

Deford
27-12-2006, 06:45
Reversal of Fortune is not a spell it is an enchant like most protection skills are.

By the way on my Bonder iI do use it as well as Guardian.

An enchantment is a subtype of spell. Please double check before you post statements like this.

Innocent: (since it is easier to just refer to you than quote relevant parts of your post)

I agree completely, in that situation. For that bar Rof + holy veil beat devo and smite hex every time. I simply have a difference of opinion as to wither monks should learn to monk with signet of devotion or without it. Everyone should know how to operate both with and without it; if you look at the 4 bars I posted there is a good mix of devo and devoless bars, even though I know you'd want the healing to be higher. I just think people should learn with prior to without but I respect your opinion completely, I just like to show the different side of things.

To Dansamy and to a lesser extent Click:
There are numerous holes in your argument. It almost looks like you made a mistake, got called on it, then refused to back down. That out of the way, let me begin with quotes.


RoF is a gamble. It could negate and heal all 84 damage, or it could trigger off of a wand hit and negate/heal 8 damage. ...

I would submit that RoF is more of a crutch by your definition than Sig Devo.

Sig Devo is an amazing skill. There is a reason it has a semi-permanent place in most experienced and intelligent monk's bars. It is a free, guaranteed, nonconditional heal in the divine favor line.

Every skill on every monk bar is a gamble in a sense that it can be wasted energy that isn't needed or it is the wrong choice for the particular situation. If something is going down fast and you misread it as something signet of devotion can heal, you will have a death. Sometimes it's a surge in the damage, sometimes it's an idiot who hits frenzy, sometimes you're just make a moronic move. Sometimes, albeit not in pve that often, that 2+ seconds are not 2 seconds you want to be standing still. If you hit prot spirit on something, only to have it not get hit again for above 10% you wasted 10 energy. Sometimes whatever was hitting him dies, sometimes the agro moves to someone else, it happens. What is important is what happens on average. Say RoF only hits a wand for 8 (I don't think things get wanded for only 8 in pve but I'll take your word on it) . The spells effective heal is not 8, it's effective heal is 16 and you come out below. But, you are also going to have times when it effectivly heals for 200 and somewhere along the line it averages out.


RoF is a utility skill that can take the place of something else on the bar....

A utility skill is something that does a specific job that may or may not arise in the course of monking/defense, like a condition removal or hex removal and to a lesser your less powerful prots. RoF is the complete antithesis of a utility



...The problem with RoF is that it is so easily spammable that an inexperienced monk can get into serious energy hurt by over-spamming it....

You can get into serious problems by spamming any skill. Learning not to spam is how you learn to be a monk and if you want to play a prot monk you need to learn how to use the best prot skill, not a skill in the divine favour line.




..Veil bugs me because I have to manually double-click to pull it off, so I rarely bring it except to GvG where my build is often designed to work in conjunction with another very specific skillbar...
Seriously, I know this was brought up by Innocent, but just because veil bugs you with it's odd removal cycle does not mean you should tell people not to use it. It is one of those things, like rof, that you need to learn how to use properly. Not liking it is not an excuse avoid it or tell other people to avoid it.


PS, although it has a relatively short recharge, doesn't need to be spammed...

What a co-incidence, the same is true about reversal of fortune, yet you think that it rof too easy to spam and shouldn't be recommended to monks inexperienced with prot. Yes it's true that you won't get a benefit out of casting prot spirit 5 times on the same target, but I've seen it done. I've also seen it tossed out on multiple targets when only 1 of them really needed it. A bad monk can make any bar bad, not that this is that surprising.




...A PvE prot monk doesn't need to concern over making red bars go up. He needs to prevent them from going down.
He'll overspam RoF, run out of energy and be back on here complaining that the skill bar doesn't work when both you and I know it's simply his execution of it....

...I bring RoF in PvE, but it depends on where I am going and who I am monking with. I often find that PuG monks lack anything resembling energy management or even good sense. So I tend to build my bar in such a way to cover their woeful shortcomings....

I almost think this pairing of quotes speaks for itself. Also contradictory is that you advocate ZB in the prot line when all it does is make red bars go up. In truth the goal of every defensive monk is to make sure the red bars don't reach zero. This means both preventing damage and making the red bars go up because the farther they have to fall the more time you have to stop it. Hell it even means yelling at someone every time they frenzy sig in the hopes that one day they realize that double damage from a stance + double damage from a signet does not = invincibility.



...You'd think I'd bitten off your e-peen....

In all truth, you seem like the one who was enraged far more than him. He just said you needed reversal, which you did, and then a big mess complete with snide comments like this began.



...With attributes often spread thin into 3-4 lines in most PvP skill bars these days, one is hard pressed to find a better replacement for a free heal.
...

1) You jumped from pve to pvp again. Innocent and I do the same thing but we admit it and probably do so because we think it works with a few modifications. You, however, previously tried to argue that there was a distinction between the two and what we use in pvp wasn't applicable to what should be used for pve.

2) Zealous Benediction is a better replacement for a free heal, which was on the bar that started this to begin with. I could also argue the inherent nature of pve fights means that you're not going to be in combat for 25 minutes and you don't need energy management in the form of slow free heals.

3) If you don't have devotion on your bar you don't need to go as deep into divine favour. The only reason the modern templates have so much DF is because the blessed light bars gave players 2 good reasons, prot does not have many worthwhile breakpoints that far into the attribute, and gift of health works fine even with low healing.




...we'll not need Mr. BiP to cover our failure to manage our own available resources effectively. If you want to split into 3 attribute lines to bring GoH, I'd drop the res for it.


Seriously, please drop it with the bip user accusations. Accusations like that only make you look petty. I sincerely doubt that Innocent is reliant on BIP nor is any other decent monk. I know I sure as hell don't rely on BIP and I only put devo on about half my pve bars. I've actually told BIP necros not to use it on me because I don't need the extra energy.

-Deford

I seriously need to stop writing 4 page long posts.

dansamy
27-12-2006, 21:07
I didn't make a mistake. I recommended a very basic skill bar for PvE, which is what the OP asked for. Veil requires more micro, which may be unwieldy to a player new to prot. I also have already stated the reason for ZB is because Anet decided to give it to us in prot, there's no reason not to use it. I'm not the one insisting that every monk's bar needs RoF. The simple fact is they don't. In my viewpoint, utility skills have universal usefulness. Conditional skills (like hex/condition removal) do not. I think we are merely differing in our definition of utility. I am perfectly capable of using veil and rof properly an would like you and Innocent to both cease assuming that I don't. Simply because I offered the OP what he asked for, a basic PvE prot bar simple enough for a beginner to run, doesn't make me any less capable of running a more complex skill bar with more micro involved. It's those assumptions (started by Innocent and carried further by you) that have placed me in a defensive stance in my responses. There's nothing inherenyly wrong or bad in the simplistic skill bar I initially posted. There's also nothing inherently wrong/bad/better in the revised versions subsequently posted. A lot of it is personal preference with what's easier for the caster to use. If you don't like a particular skill, you won't use it. It's like a child safety seat. The best child safety seat on the market won't protect your child if you won't use it. The OP needs to take build suggestions, try them out and tweak to his/her liking.

Jacobbs
28-12-2006, 04:41
I didn't make a mistake. I recommended a very basic skill bar for PvE, which is what the OP asked for. Veil requires more micro, which may be unwieldy to a player new to prot. I also have already stated the reason for ZB is because Anet decided to give it to us in prot, there's no reason not to use it. I'm not the one insisting that every monk's bar needs RoF. The simple fact is they don't. In my viewpoint, utility skills have universal usefulness. Conditional skills (like hex/condition removal) do not. I think we are merely differing in our definition of utility. I am perfectly capable of using veil and rof properly an would like you and Innocent to both cease assuming that I don't. Simply because I offered the OP what he asked for, a basic PvE prot bar simple enough for a beginner to run, doesn't make me any less capable of running a more complex skill bar with more micro involved. It's those assumptions (started by Innocent and carried further by you) that have placed me in a defensive stance in my responses. There's nothing inherenyly wrong or bad in the simplistic skill bar I initially posted. There's also nothing inherently wrong/bad/better in the revised versions subsequently posted. A lot of it is personal preference with what's easier for the caster to use. If you don't like a particular skill, you won't use it. It's like a child safety seat. The best child safety seat on the market won't protect your child if you won't use it. The OP needs to take build suggestions, try them out and tweak to his/her liking.

1) It is widely known that ZB is WoH in a better line. There is no way you can call ZB a true "Protection Prayer".

2) Every monk bar doesn't need RoF, you're perfectly correct. It's kind of like how any skill bar in GW doesn't need an elite skill. RoF is SUCH a strong skill that if you have any substantial points in protection prayers, you would be well to bring RoF.

3) If you consider RoF a utility skill, then why not bring it? Since according to you, it would have universal usefulness? It mitigates and heals, how much more universal can you get? In a game where health is one of the main resources, I would say that's pretty darn universal.

dansamy
28-12-2006, 05:13
1) It is widely known that ZB is WoH in a better line. There is no way you can call ZB a true "Protection Prayer".

2) Every monk bar doesn't need RoF, you're perfectly correct. It's kind of like how any skill bar in GW doesn't need an elite skill. RoF is SUCH a strong skill that if you have any substantial points in protection prayers, you would be well to bring RoF.

3) If you consider RoF a utility skill, then why not bring it? Since according to you, it would have universal usefulness? It mitigates and heals, how much more universal can you get? In a game where health is one of the main resources, I would say that's pretty darn universal.

I haven't called ZB a prot prayer. Every post I've made regarding it has reiterated my opinion that I think Izzy was smoking something when he agreed to have it under prot. RoF is a good skill. I do bring it. I didn't include it in the skill bar I suggested to the OP because I'd rather not see him make the mistake of overspamming it, run out of energy and come back here to whine that "this build sucks" when it's not the build but the user.

Ani Kirch
28-12-2006, 08:53
I'm currently running the following in Nightfall:
RoF, Blessed light, gift of health, SoA, Prot spirit, dismiss condition, rebirth, holy veil.

This build protects against spikes, removes hexs, conditions and heals!
The only problem with it is energy management, but as long as you don't spam 10e spells or overheal you should be fine. It also helps to quickly learn how the other monk on your team plays, such as what does he remove first: conditions or hex's? I look for this and do the opposite, so as not to waste energy.

I have had difficulty with ZB in PvE as I'm usally with a hench monk, which will often heal whoever is below 50% health before I can get ZB off and so I lose the free heal, and also over heal at the same time!


Ani

Veregre
29-12-2006, 06:23
When i run prot, its

ROf
Shield of Deflection
Shielding Hands
Prot Spirit
Mend Conditioon
Remove Hex
Sig of devotion (>_>)
Rebirth

Prot 16
DF 13

Neo Templer
02-01-2007, 17:22
can somebody tell me whats the difference between Boon prot and a prot u are talking about?

Is it that your prot can also heal?

hmm...
one more question: There is a discussion in the monk forum about boon prots in pve.Seems like they dont work...but does a "prot" (whatever is meant here) work in pve?

thx!

Dawn Stormborn
02-01-2007, 19:35
can somebody tell me whats the difference between Boon prot and a prot u are talking about?

Boon prots use Divine Boon and prot spells. The prot spells reduce damage and divine favor plus divine boon give everything a healing effect too. The penalty is boon makes everything cost 2 more energy and of course the -1 from maintaining an enchantment.

These builds in this thread are "normal" prot builds.


but does a "prot" (whatever is meant here) work in pve?

I hope so, otherwise my prot monk in the Torment area will be bummed. :wink: Seriously though prot works but you also need some healing. The healing can come from another monk, other members in the group with their own self-heals (good luck on finding that though), or some skills you take (ZB, Gift of Health, Blessed Light, have been mentioned, hero/hench monks, etc.

Some people seem scared of prot monk builds - I've got some guildies who always ask for healing builds on all the monks along (when I ask if people have a preference, e.g. I'm coordinating with another monk). That just results in crazy button mashing and overhealing, IMHO. Now I just take a prot build and don't tell them. :grin: