PDA

View Full Version : heroes ascent: discrimination?



kaelthas
01-01-2007, 09:50
hiya HA lovers!

i wanted to share a thought of mine.
i think it is quite sad that only the ranked players, and not the complete new ones, dont have a large chance to enter a party. and the few times i entered one, people started calling me dumm and idiot, did you ever play HA before etc. But to say from myself: i'm a quite experienced player in PVE and also a bit PVP, but i only have 4 fame for the moment.
And then more: al: the different builds and specifications: if i manage to enter a party, people kick me because i dont have one particular skill!!
if somebody has some HA tips and hints for me, plz tell me, because i want to enjoy doing PVP, not being ignored!!

grimwold
01-01-2007, 10:50
just remember that all players start off equal. from my own personal experience, it took many months of slowly grinding away, learning to play the roles that were needed and slowly getting to know a group of people that i could play with on a regular basis before i started to become a good player and actually see the later maps on a regular basis.

on the subject of "new players" being "good players", you probably think you know what your doing, but honestly your only at the begginning of a very long road. patience is the key, and observer mode is a blessing that we didnt have 20 months ago. best of luck on your journey.

sorudo
01-01-2007, 12:58
experiance in GW is verry more based.
a good pve-er is bad in pvp, but a good pvp-er is bad in pve.
it just depends on what you do and what you're used to play, i have it my self.
most teams think that an n/e is weak, while they are the most strongest nukers in the game.
unlimited energy and strong vampire strengt get's you pretty far it's just that most ppl are used to have the basic build and so discriminate the custm ones, only becouse some builds are not fit in pvp, but the right build doesn't get better in it at all.

just take a good team with respect on cutom builds, only such teams know how to play.

Sheikh Al Stranghi
01-01-2007, 13:00
experiance in GW is verry more based.
a good pve-er is bad in pvp, but a good pvp-er is bad in pve.
it just depends on what you do and what you're used to play, i have it my self.
most teams think that an n/e is weak, while they are the most strongest nukers in the game.
unlimited energy and strong vampire strengt get's you pretty far it's just that most ppl are used to have the basic build and so discriminate the custm ones, only becouse some builds are not fit in pvp, but the right build doesn't get better in it at all.

just take a good team with respect on cutom builds, only such teams know how to play.


If you're good at PVP, you're good at PVE.

Lord Mendes
01-01-2007, 15:14
experiance in GW is verry more based.
a good pve-er is bad in pvp, but a good pvp-er is bad in pve.
it just depends on what you do and what you're used to play, i have it my self.
most teams think that an n/e is weak, while they are the most strongest nukers in the game.
unlimited energy and strong vampire strengt get's you pretty far it's just that most ppl are used to have the basic build and so discriminate the custm ones, only becouse some builds are not fit in pvp, but the right build doesn't get better in it at all.

just take a good team with respect on cutom builds, only such teams know how to play.
Just... wow!

Lykan
01-01-2007, 15:22
hiya HA lovers!

i wanted to share a thought of mine.
i think it is quite sad that only the ranked players, and not the complete new ones, dont have a large chance to enter a party. and the few times i entered one, people started calling me dumm and idiot, did you ever play HA before etc. But to say from myself: i'm a quite experienced player in PVE and also a bit PVP, but i only have 4 fame for the moment.
And then more: al: the different builds and specifications: if i manage to enter a party, people kick me because i dont have one particular skill!!
if somebody has some HA tips and hints for me, plz tell me, because i want to enjoy doing PVP, not being ignored!!
PvP is serious business, unfortunaly most people will not want the unprepared in their party, you said you were kicked for not having one skill, im wondering if you were using a PvE or Pvp character. If your just starting out I suggest using a pvp character as you can unlock stuff easier.
My advice is to watch a lot of observer mode and watch what ppl are playing, choose a class you like and copy their skills exactly and then try again.

richo
01-01-2007, 16:37
If you're good at PVP, you're good at PVE.

lol? i saw r9 players in my parties sometimes and they didnt do much better then the rankless pple and sometimes even worse then the avg pve pug...
if youre good at pvp doesnt mean youre good at pve also and same other way around...

kaelthas
01-01-2007, 16:42
ok ty guys, i'll try to the best as i can to become a better player in heroes ascent!! i think i'll be spending more time with the observer mode the next couple of days/ weeks/months

flaming caster
01-01-2007, 17:16
the key of getting your rank is: getting to know teambuilds you like to play, and teambuilds that are commonly used.
know what to do against them.

create your own groups, with people you know.
if you dont know anyone, join a group and try to make friends, play with the same people over and over so you get to know eachother and learn together.

you could even make a guild together with those friends, and let only people you know into the guild.

also try to use voice communication like teamspeak, or ventrillo i would recomend to get a microphone to. that way its much easier to tell your team whats going on, and what to do against certain builds

Buddah
02-01-2007, 20:56
If you're good at PVP, you're good at PVE.

I've proudly kicked a couple top 50 guild members from PvE groups and even more would be HA stars have been cast aside. They either were overly critical on others yet would never acknowledge their own failing, had horrible judgment of either skill use or tactics, or just were in game *****.

dantheman5415
02-01-2007, 21:06
I've proudly kicked a couple top 50 guild members from PvE groups and even more would be HA stars have been cast aside. They either were overly critical on others yet would never acknowledge their own failing, had horrible judgment of either skill use or tactics, or just were in game *****.

And I've proudly kicked a couple top 50 pve...oh wait...

Psykewne
02-01-2007, 21:10
If you're good at PVP, you're good at PVE.

Lol WRONG!... pve and pvp require two different styles of play, sure they're similar but I see far too many pvp aces (an ex guild leader who was r9 for instance) who just can't hack pve and are incapable of passing some missions... understanding of hench/hero ai, monster ai and patrols is important in pve and not something you will learn in pvp.

Ranger Nietzsche
02-01-2007, 22:49
don't hijack this thread into another pvp vs pve thread.


all of those points mean nothing really. two different things have two different sets of people who are good at them...omfg. you mean a tennis player would not necessarily be good at soccer!????!!!

this is a thread about rank discrimination ... yes its necessary. An unranked player might be good at RA, TA, or PVE or all of those. However, when I take him to the Dwayna vs Lyssa relic run and tell him to do a one man body block he will have no ****ing clue what I mean. His positioning on Scarred Earth will be off because he is unaware of the lever gank possibility. When he brings the ghostly hero to the altar he isnt going to run diagonally to prevent a body block.

And I don't have time before every match to instruct him on each and every detail and eventuality. That kind of knowledge has to come from experience. And one thing rank tells you...they have played a LOT of HA...successfully or otherwise.

Lykan
03-01-2007, 11:20
hmm nvm.......

Amor Morte
03-01-2007, 13:49
don't hijack this thread into another pvp vs pve thread.


all of those points mean nothing really. two different things have two different sets of people who are good at them...omfg. you mean a tennis player would not necessarily be good at soccer!????!!!

this is a thread about rank discrimination ... yes its necessary. An unranked player might be good at RA, TA, or PVE or all of those. However, when I take him to the Dwayna vs Lyssa relic run and tell him to do a one man body block he will have no ****ing clue what I mean. His positioning on Scarred Earth will be off because he is unaware of the lever gank possibility. When he brings the ghostly hero to the altar he isnt going to run diagonally to prevent a body block.

And I don't have time before every match to instruct him on each and every detail and eventuality. That kind of knowledge has to come from experience. And one thing rank tells you...they have played a LOT of HA...successfully or otherwise.

QFT.

I am fed up of people saying rank means nothing. At the very least it shows how much knowledge you have of the different maps and the tactics to use on them.

Buddah
03-01-2007, 17:15
QFT.

I am fed up of people saying rank means nothing. At the very least it shows how much knowledge you have of the different maps and the tactics to use on them.
Bah, from the standpoint of a person who enjoyed the fame bug Rank quickly became meaningless. Because nothing was there to be shown before hand to prove to the thickheaded elitist that you have learned such.

Kamahl
03-01-2007, 17:38
Lol WRONG!... pve and pvp require two different styles of play, sure they're similar but I see far too many pvp aces (an ex guild leader who was r9 for instance) who just can't hack pve and are incapable of passing some missions... understanding of hench/hero ai, monster ai and patrols is important in pve and not something you will learn in pvp.

shame on you for making fun of josh hah but anyway

before you try and pvp get uax or at least the most common skillsbeing used in the meta and try to group with guildies/friends pugs usually suck but then again everyone started with pugs Oo

as for pve , who cares about pve?

Tucks
03-01-2007, 17:46
I don't know why you are arguing over the whole "If you are good at PvP you are bad at PvE" thing. Why? Because it's impossible to be bad at PvE.

Zaa Nayazu
03-01-2007, 17:54
this is a thread about rank discrimination ... yes its necessary. An unranked player might be good at RA, TA, or PVE or all of those. However, when I take him to the Dwayna vs Lyssa relic run and tell him to do a one man body block he will have no ****ing clue what I mean. His positioning on Scarred Earth will be off because he is unaware of the lever gank possibility. When he brings the ghostly hero to the altar he isnt going to run diagonally to prevent a body block.

And I don't have time before every match to instruct him on each and every detail and eventuality. That kind of knowledge has to come from experience. And one thing rank tells you...they have played a LOT of HA...successfully or otherwise.

True enough, but, erm, where do you propose they get that experience from? Obviously not from beign part of the elitist groups like you so kindly put out. Observer mode perhaps? I'm sure he will know exactly where to position him/herself by beign in observer mode, going thru 12+ characters just so he can see where he has to be. Watch "many" matches thru observer mode? Sure, I'll spend 100+ hours watching matches on the off chance I get to see everymap 10+ times and go thru 1200 different characters to learn positions/tactics etc... God knows, we wouldnt want people teaching other people how to do any of this. We know your time is precious and you couldnt posibly spend a couple of minutes to explain something to someone. Let them rot away on a monitor while others have the fun of experimenting and learning thru experience.

Rank does tell you they have played a lot of HA and they very well have a lot of experience, maybe bad but who cares, they got high rank, we want him. Discrimation, because of Rank is the most idiotic thing i have seen in Guild Wars in the past 2 years. It was when it started and still is to this day. If the experienced HA players had bothered(sp) to teach the basics of HA to new players, things like the IWAY fiasco would have happen. It became the scapegoat for all the players that were discriminated against in the past and it was you, the elitist that complained the most when "noobs" were farming rank and rolling over you with such build.



Disclaimer: Post is in reply to Nietzsches' post, not him as a person. It's towards mentality in HA in general. Just using his post as an example.

Psykewne
03-01-2007, 17:58
shame on you for making fun of josh hah but anyway

before you try and pvp get uax or at least the most common skillsbeing used in the meta and try to group with guildies/friends pugs usually suck but then again everyone started with pugs Oo

as for pve , who cares about pve?

Lol don't name and shame now :P, and yeah pugging sucks but we all had to do it in order to find the friends we have now and to gain rank... And i care about pve so there :P


I don't know why you are arguing over the whole "If you are good at PvP you are bad at PvE" thing. Why? Because it's impossible to be bad at PvE.

I didn't bring the pve thing up but i'll be damned if people will devalue it, it most certainly is possible to be bad at pve because i've seen it first hand :P

And it is true that alot of hardcore pvp only players tend to be very poor pve players if they try to do some of the harder areas (and also some of the easier areas *smacks head*). I mostly put it down to the arrogance pvp instills in alot of players causing them to devalue pve because pve spawns new pvpers which inherently are not that good until they've learned a bit of pvp stuff... it's a vice versa situation not a critique on either, any complaint about pvpers in pve and pve'ers in pvp go both ways equally.

Tiyuri
03-01-2007, 20:10
I don't know why you are arguing over the whole "If you are good at PvP you are bad at PvE" thing. Why? Because it's impossible to be bad at PvE.

C+Space, 123124142124662184682368263126486482648, res, 172392817323872378737237728323 = Win PVE

OrionH
03-01-2007, 20:23
all of those points mean nothing really. two different things have two different sets of people who are good at them...omfg. you mean a tennis player would not necessarily be good at soccer!????!!!

<snip>

And I don't have time before every match to instruct him on each and every detail and eventuality. That kind of knowledge has to come from experience. And one thing rank tells you...they have played a LOT of HA...successfully or otherwise.

a better analogy would have probably been tennis vs squash or badminton, but i see where you were goin with that one.

Also, and this is very much true for RL situations (gettin ur first job for example!), people say experience is the key but how can we get experience is no one lets us into their groups.

Kamahl
03-01-2007, 21:55
a better analogy would have probably been tennis vs squash or badminton, but i see where you were goin with that one.

Also, and this is very much true for RL situations (gettin ur first job for example!), people say experience is the key but how can we get experience is no one lets us into their groups.

internships

Xunlai Agent
03-01-2007, 22:17
friend of mine was playing in DoA and got invited to a group composed of HAers like Leelof and he told me they sucked really hard.
Good At PvP =/= Good At PvE and vice versa

Zaa Nayazu
03-01-2007, 22:28
People should just stop comparing PvP and PvE. They are not the same and I dont care how leet your equipment is or how good your build is, try using:

C+Space, 123124142124662184682368263126486482648, res, 172392817323872378737237728323 = Win PVE
in the Domain of Anguish. I would love to be there and watch your whole party get wiped out in a matter of seconds. If it isnt, its because your team knew what it was doing and your PvP experience means crap in PvE.

I T I S N O T T H E S A M E!

winkgood
04-01-2007, 05:34
To clarify, a good PvP player is not neccessarily good at PvE. However, from what I've seen, they are much more likely to be than for a good PvE player to be a good PvP player. The main difference between the two is that things don't really change in PVE aside from occassional skill balances which affect builds. Even in the most difficult PVE area of the game, DOA, once you learn the tricks and how to beat certain foes, the same thing will work every time. PVP on the other hand is ever changing. You actually have opponents that think and strategize and want to beat you just as badly as you want to beat them. For this reason, PVP will always be harder than PVE.

This is coming from someone who GvGs regularly, plays HA and holds halls, delves into the arenas when I'm bored, and still manages to hold PVE titles like KoaBD, 100% Explore of multiple continents, Treasure hunter, wisdom, etc. I've also played through the high level PVE areas like FoW, UW, Urgoz, and DoA. I started out as as mainly a PVEer but switched focus to PVP about a year ago. In other words, I'm well rounded in both areas of the game.

kaelthas
04-01-2007, 10:02
...euhm ... :P
i think for me the important part is that: i played 2 dayes constantly in HA, and i must say, your hints worked out well: i now got 24 fame, and i got a couple of friends who play with me too! :D
i think you all are right in your own opinion, and if you practise a lot, you can become better, like you asked me to do xD

well, ty very much!

Zaa Nayazu
04-01-2007, 14:19
To clarify, a good PvP player is not neccessarily good at PvE. However, from what I've seen, they are much more likely to be than for a good PvE player to be a good PvP player. The main difference between the two is that things don't really change in PVE aside from occassional skill balances which affect builds. Even in the most difficult PVE area of the game, DOA, once you learn the tricks and how to beat certain foes, the same thing will work every time. PVP on the other hand is ever changing. You actually have opponents that think and strategize and want to beat you just as badly as you want to beat them. For this reason, PVP will always be harder than PVE.


Same could be said about FoTM. Once you get one, it is fairly standard and fairly easy to gain Fame. PvE also is ever changing, in some areas, with each update. Best example was the AoE update which changed a lot of PvE strategies in certain areas, but that is another topic for another thread.



This is coming from someone who GvGs regularly, plays HA and holds halls, delves into the arenas when I'm bored, and still manages to hold PVE titles like KoaBD, 100% Explore of multiple continents, Treasure hunter, wisdom, etc. I've also played through the high level PVE areas like FoW, UW, Urgoz, and DoA. I started out as as mainly a PVEer but switched focus to PVP about a year ago. In other words, I'm well rounded in both areas of the game.
I was backwards, I used to only play PvP. Mainly GvG and other arenas. I tried to get really involved in Tombs at one point but the stupid rank discrimination made me think that all PvPers were just a bunch of arrogant fools. I ended up concentrating more on PvE after that since I didnt wanted to put up with all the leetism(sp) there. This was then, now I'm trying to get back at the PvP scene with the addition of NF and to see this Rank discrimination be so prominant still now-a-days just makes my blood boil.

To Kaelthas, I'm glad you are enjoying your experience so far and wish you the best of luck.

Amor Morte
04-01-2007, 16:47
I hardly think not taking someone who has no idea about HA into a high ranked team is elitist. If it is, well then mark me elitist, because I have neither the spare time nor patience to teach some random pug from scratch the tactics for each map.

Ranger Nietzsche
04-01-2007, 23:29
True enough, but, erm, where do you propose they get that experience from? ... God knows, we wouldnt want people teaching other people how to do any of this. We know your time is precious and you couldnt posibly spend a couple of minutes to explain something to someone. ... If the experienced HA players had bothered(sp) to teach the basics of HA to new players, things like the IWAY fiasco would have happen. It became the scapegoat for all the players that were discriminated against in the past and it was you, the elitist that complained the most when "noobs" were farming rank and rolling over you with such build.



Disclaimer: Post is in reply to Nietzsches' post, not him as a person. It's towards mentality in HA in general. Just using his post as an example.


mmm you need better grammar for that disclaimer...if you dont want to make it personal don't say "YOU" all the time. As for IWAY...since you call it a fiasco clearly you don't like that build so why the **** are you insulting people who call it noob.

YOu say i should take a couple minutes to explain everything. clearly you have absolutely no good knowledge of HA if you think i can explain everything in less than 2 hours.

Learn from experience. I'm sorry if people don't like getting their first couple ranks in ****ty unranked PUGs. but why would you expect to jump up the ladder that fast? If you JUST started GvG would you first go to iQ's forums and ask for an invite? So why should an experienced r9++ or HA guild team let you into their group?

Meta Dervish
05-01-2007, 06:01
I have to add though.....most of my guildies are finding that finding an unranked pug is rather, difficult.

I go in to HA and see zero unranked pug forming, then I tried to make one myself and it never worked I can never find the right class combination, and not a ridiculous fotm either. Then I just randomly made a loose balanced team after 2 hours and went in, got 0 morale from zaishen, get killed by a rank 9 team that flashed tiger at us after we got rolled, tried 2 more times with same result, and then half the team "have to go". Turns out I had to resort back to my rank again.

It was NEVER this hard to form unranked pug when I started prophecies in April 2005.

Conclusion: "We all went through this" is a skewed opinion, people forgot about population decline, the increasing difficulty of acquiring skills in Factions/NF, the increasing amount of pro team in first round, increasing amount of fotm that can kill any non-experienced team. The fact is right now trying to climb the rank ladder is exponentially harder than before, so I suggest people don't even try.

Ranger Nietzsche
05-01-2007, 07:09
if that is true (and You are correct that I can't comment on what it is like now) then it suggests a problem with HA in general. But lets not thread jack.

Point is rank elitism isnt at fault for lower population, need to aquire more skills, and the increased power of fotm

CassiusDrehyg
05-01-2007, 09:35
If the players weren't so stupid, maybe I'd be more attracted to PvE, but until then, Eles who think that they can take thousands of damage points without dying or Mr Jimmy Wammo the one hundred and thirty nine thousand, five hundred and fifty sixth thinking that he can solo every monster he comes across and never die once because he has Healing Hands and Mending (two whole regen pips ftw) will keep me away.

PvE is:
1) No fun
2) A C-Space pugfest
3) Too light-hearted for my taste. I prefer competition against humans, because unlike monsters, human PvPers are INTELLIGENT beings.

But I'll say this in order to actually benefit the topic:

Everyone, whatever rank they are now, had the same problem. We all had to work to get our current ranks, even though the community was very insular. All the newcomers now however, have one great advantage over us, the LFG system.

The P button is your friend, it'll get you into more groups than spamming "R0 TANK LFG (GOT 3 DEFENSIVE STANCES THAT I CYCLE THROUGH WITHOUT LETTING THEM EXPIRE)" in HA ID1 main chat will.



Conclusion: "We all went through this" is a skewed opinion, people forgot about population decline, the increasing difficulty of acquiring skills in Factions/NF, the increasing amount of pro team in first round, increasing amount of fotm that can kill any non-experienced team. The fact is right now trying to climb the rank ladder is exponentially harder than before, so I suggest people don't even try.


Acquisition of skills from Nightfall/Factions is as easy as talking to Narius, who is currently standing near the back of the Heroes' Ascent area. Finding an unranked pug has never been easier. Sure, the average unranked person has less skills unlocked than other players, but this just means a bit more planning and practice is required, and yeah, if you stick to a build that works, you'll get somewhere eventually. The one thing I've always hated about HA is the rank crying. Let me let you in on a little secret:

The R9 pugs you see forming in ID1 are usually get no further than the R3 ones. This is a point that's been echoed hundreds of times, but the best groups, including the ones that hold the HoH, are guild teams/friend list teams.

I don't have the time or patience to teach people the tactics for the maps from the ground up either. Call me an elitist if you wish, but I'm glad that new people are making the effort to get into serious PvP.

Good luck to you in making it in the HA community Kaelthas, you've made the right choice.

Lykan
05-01-2007, 10:34
...euhm ... :P
i think for me the important part is that: i played 2 dayes constantly in HA, and i must say, your hints worked out well: i now got 24 fame, and i got a couple of friends who play with me too! :D
i think you all are right in your own opinion, and if you practise a lot, you can become better, like you asked me to do xD

well, ty very much!
Glad your doing well and having fun mate. Another piece of advice is to keep playing with your friends and also build that friend list up, friendlist > pugs.

richo
05-01-2007, 18:19
you mean RA, TA, HA arent the same?

PvE is:
1) No fun
2) A C-Space pugfest
3) Too light-hearted for my taste. I prefer competition against humans, because unlike monsters, human PvPers are INTELLIGENT beings.

you mean pvp is so much different?


If the players weren't so stupid, maybe I'd be more attracted to PvE, but until then, Eles who think that they can take thousands of damage points without dying or Mr Jimmy Wammo the one hundred and thirty nine thousand, five hundred and fifty sixth thinking that he can solo every monster he comes across and never die once because he has Healing Hands and Mending (two whole regen pips ftw) will keep me away.

wasnt the paladin a premade pvp build at first:grin:

agentele
07-01-2007, 01:21
I agree with what new pvpiers have to go through in HA, the ranking system has completely messed up. No groups will take you unless you have r3 or something, I know cause I've been there.
My advice play with friends like I did and some gd experience and never join pugs unless you can communicate (ts, vent etc) fairly well in terms of the build your running.

ImSoToast
07-01-2007, 02:38
you mean RA, TA, HA arent the same?

you mean pvp is so much different?


wasnt the paladin a premade pvp build at first:grin:

So do you just post to argue, is this flame bait than?

If you honestly don't know why a paladin was a template, well ignorance is bliss and allows you to flame us and argue with us right? But put it this way do you even remember the role that a paladin played in gvg? heres a hint soloing.

Anyways you second sentence doesnt make any sense and is a contradiction to what you failed at trying to say. How can pvp be played against non humans while that is exactly what pve is? Ya there is a few npc's in some pvp, but if you notice pvp still, esp now that heroes are limited in most pvp arenas, played against humans at teh core not an ai.

So can you actually add something to this discussion or mature a bit and don't post. Remember a nice saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Next time before posting nonsense just to argue maybe think a bit before. Honestly not trying to be mean or rude, but the truth sometimes has to be a bit harsh to get across. Also notice I never called you dumb or a noob or any derogatory name.

CassiusDrehyg
07-01-2007, 11:07
you mean RA, TA, HA arent the same?

you mean pvp is so much different?


wasnt the paladin a premade pvp build at first:grin:

My thoughts, summed up in a line of text:

Please don't reply to my posts unless you have any idea what you're talking about.

BrotherKurupt
07-01-2007, 14:52
I'm quite sure richo is flaimbait...but seriously...

I would much rather take a rank3 monk into a pve group instead of a random pve monk...why? Because chances are, the rank3 monk will not waste my time by bringing his 1337 55hp build. Nor will he defend himself against 4 Aatxes with vital blessing. However, 99% of areas in PvE are idiot-proof to a degree that it doesnt' matter what monk you bring--you will succeed in making it to the cutscene. The difference is the time spent, and I don't like to go through the tirade of "stopping to regen" every mob--with pvp players doing pve, you can find a rhythm.

CassiusDrehyg
12-01-2007, 09:18
I'm quite sure richo is flaimbait...but seriously...

I would much rather take a rank3 monk into a pve group instead of a random pve monk...why? Because chances are, the rank3 monk will not waste my time by bringing his 1337 55hp build. Nor will he defend himself against 4 Aatxes with vital blessing. However, 99% of areas in PvE are idiot-proof to a degree that it doesnt' matter what monk you bring--you will succeed in making it to the cutscene. The difference is the time spent, and I don't like to go through the tirade of "stopping to regen" every mob--with pvp players doing pve, you can find a rhythm.

I couldn't agree more.

Even in idiot proof areas I wouldn't want to play with a monk trying to use Banish on the mobs. I don't like stopping to "regen" either. There's a little thing called energy management and good monking, and I'm afraid that many PvE players know nothing about managing energy or health.

If I must take a pug, I'm unlikely to take people without titles. I don't want to play with a wammo, and I don't want to play with a Mo/E who has Meteor Shower.

quago
13-01-2007, 01:35
Ha will become a joke and probably deserted by alot of players maybe for few months to come. Reason is the most new players cannot find fun dying on ranked groups and name calling (noob and idiot for particular). All these argument or rank elitism because they want people that have experience will backfire to them imho.

The only thing new players want try try ha is because they want to be able to flash thier rank. Once they feel how tedious the learning process they will quit eventually (just because it isnt fun anymore).

I hope you guys fame farm as much as you can now because about 1 year HA=Ghost town.

Yunas Ele
13-01-2007, 02:21
hiya HA lovers!

i wanted to share a thought of mine.
i think it is quite sad that only the ranked players, and not the complete new ones, dont have a large chance to enter a party. and the few times i entered one, people started calling me dumm and idiot, did you ever play HA before etc. But to say from myself: i'm a quite experienced player in PVE and also a bit PVP, but i only have 4 fame for the moment.
And then more: al: the different builds and specifications: if i manage to enter a party, people kick me because i dont have one particular skill!!
if somebody has some HA tips and hints for me, plz tell me, because i want to enjoy doing PVP, not being ignored!!

First off, why are they calling you "dumm" and an idiot. Are you making huge mistakes? Even if they may be raging at you, find out WHAT you are doing wrong so that you can improve your playing so that you don't make these mistakes again. Sorry to say but if you have just 4 fame you probably haven't even seen half the maps yet, so no, you're no experienced in HA. Watch obs, read up guides on HA, etc. Get the basics under your belt before even trying to find a group.

People kicking you because you don't have a skill? Can't blame them. HA is a high level pvp and you can't just take whatever the **** you want on your skill bar. Your team's build may require certain skills in it to be successful. So what do you do? Just make sure you have at the very least 5k faction (or more...) on you at all times before you try to join a group. Thus you will have faction available to spend, so you won't be in that situation ever again.

You'll be a lot better off with that under your belt. You still may not be very good at HA (hey, everyone started as a r0 newb...) and you may get raged at but like I said above find out what you're doing wrong and make sure you don't do it again. Eventually teams will think you are a good player and if you think your team mates are any good, add 'em to your friends list so you can play with them again. Once you got a decent friends list going you can build your own teams with your friends and guess what. Friends teams are always better than pugs. r0 friends team can beat r9+ pug. These friends will probably invite you to their groups and you'll get even more connections and next thing you know you'll be the next top tombs player...

Anyways best of luck to you!

Lord Natural
13-01-2007, 03:48
Ha will become a joke and probably deserted by alot of players maybe for few months to come. Reason is the most new players cannot find fun dying on ranked groups and name calling (noob and idiot for particular). All these argument or rank elitism because they want people that have experience will backfire to them imho.

The only thing new players want try try ha is because they want to be able to flash thier rank. Once they feel how tedious the learning process they will quit eventually (just because it isnt fun anymore).

I hope you guys fame farm as much as you can now because about 1 year HA=Ghost town.

This has been the case since shortly after the release of the game, so I don't see how this alone will have anything to do with a decline in HA activity. I see unranked groups forming all the time, and it's how everyone started. Judging by your comments, I'd probably guess you're unranked, tried a couple of random teams, lost (to an immature team), and have formed an opinion that HA is worthless/a waste of time/evil.

Nothing has changed recently to make HA any less accessible for new users, other than the obvious decline in GW popularity in general. If anything, 6v6 makes it a little bit easier to put teams together.

Ranger Nietzsche
13-01-2007, 08:33
Ha will become a joke and probably deserted by alot of players maybe for few months to come. Reason is the most new players cannot find fun dying on ranked groups and name calling (noob and idiot for particular). All these argument or rank elitism because they want people that have experience will backfire to them imho.

The only thing new players want try try ha is because they want to be able to flash thier rank. Once they feel how tedious the learning process they will quit eventually (just because it isnt fun anymore).

I hope you guys fame farm as much as you can now because about 1 year HA=Ghost town.

this is what dumb people have been saying since day 1

and while HA had problems for a long time (due to a COMPLETE lack of love from the devs) what killed it was 6v6. 6v6 might not be the REASON HA had problems, but it definatly made the reasons it had problems a LOT more prevelant.

But also what everyone can acknowledge is that 6v6 created a whole new set of HAers. It brought a lot of new people in even as a lot of the old crew left.

Ultmately the amount of people who left was greater than the new ones who came (hence the 1 AD) but it PROVES that there are new people willing to grind out their rank in HA. And so what we need is something to bring the old players back.


the point is, if no one had left when 6v6 came, the population of HA would have increased by about 33%. A definate indicator that it was not the fame system that kept new players from coming in.

Your Fear Is Big
19-01-2007, 17:40
don't cry on the forums cry on gw pls.

Ouchie
19-01-2007, 18:33
I feel bad for newer players to HA and I hate watching team mates putting down someone for being new

why they are being called dumb - simply put they dont know the maps or what to do

Heroway had eliminated some of these problems for new people allowing them to form a group and learn the first maps ~ but that is gone now

I strongly disagree with anyone being called names in the game for any reason

On the otherside of things once you spend the time to learn the maps and skills (not to mention strategy) it is hard to play with someone who hasn't

Observer is still a new person's best friend watch and see where people go and what they do ~which skills work and why.:flowers:

Your Fear Is Big
19-01-2007, 19:25
i see these threads every forum i go they are starting to annoy me ur getting rank discriminated and not getting in grps boho so what.. :angry2:

Betwixt
21-01-2007, 07:12
Now, I am only rank 4 and as such I make no claims in having the depth of knowledge a r9 or even r6 player would have in the workings of HA. I do however have a few comments to make in regards to unranked members of the community complaining about "rank elitism".

My first experiences in Heroes Ascent were in fact rather grim ones I will admit. VERY few people will take an unranked player into their groups and at the time I myself struggled to grasp why (Only now with some more experience can I understand the frustrations they would have had having to guide me through even the most mundane aspects of HA, such as map layouts and even the general objective of each specific map! Lol).

I found much to my dismay that the "best" options for me to earn even a r3 were of course IWAY and ViMway(The former even developing a level of elitism all of its own). These however were not my style of play and I found it quite impossible to enjoy HA even if it would EVENTUALLY grant me a rank. As such I gave up on HA for a brief time.

But that was not the end! Here is the most important message for any unranked players who may read this post. I gained almost all of my fame from simply playing with my friends, more specifically my guildmates. A few members in my guild were r5/6 and a number of the other unranked members of the guild also shared my interest in HA. So, we gathered together and discussed various builds we knew of and ventured of to HA. The few ranked players with us carefully guided us during our earlier time in HA(Showing a great deal of patience on their part I will admit =p) and we rather quickly grasped the basics of each of the maps leading to HoH.

In conclusion there are really only two ways you will ever gain rank as an unranked player, either you play simple fotm builds with various unranked PUG's and gradually (possibly painfully) grind your way to a rank OR you can gather a group of your friends (Preferably with one or more mildly experienced players) find a particular build and simply go for it. Trust me, I remember the very first time I won HoH and it was all the more enjoyable because I was playing with friends who had a bit of fun along the way. ;D


i see these threads every forum i go they are starting to annoy me ur getting rank discriminated and not getting in grps boho so what.. :angry2:

Also, do you really think this is a productive approach? :wink3:

Mathius Clarkus
21-01-2007, 15:19
I don't think it can be denied that the was HA is set up is bad for beginners and it is a great shame. People like to do things right because if they mess up many people leave and won't try again. I do think a lot of this would go away if they got rid of ranks or at least made them more general.

opuis
21-01-2007, 19:49
I don't think it can be denied that the was HA is set up is bad for beginners and it is a great shame. People like to do things right because if they mess up many people leave and won't try again. I do think a lot of this would go away if they got rid of ranks or at least made them more general.

Unfortunately (for new players at least), HA is "supposed" to be the highest level of PvP outside of GvG. It was never meant to be "casual" in respect to forming groups. As stated 1000 times or more, most success in HA comes from playing with guildies and friends. Standing around HA spamming for a group is the wrong way to go about it. I know, because that's how I ranked up. Once you realize this you're well on your way to having some success in HA. Even ranked PUG's have limited success due to playing styles and tactics.

Getting rid of ranks will only further problems. Rank/ fame is the only reward for playing HA outside of the Halls chest.

For new players, obeserve, observe, observe. This will give you an idea of map schematics. From there you can try and join a guild that has similar interests. This is not difficult. From here, I cannot stress enough communication over Voice IP programs. Communicating over Vent or TS is probably the most important factor outside of skills that makes or breaks a group. Seriously, I mean - Dazed on 5...Call it, dont just assume your condition remover is going to know it.

Savsuds
22-01-2007, 04:21
I only go in with friends or guildies to HA.

The main reasons:
1. I dislike playing with unknown factors. A PuG will never gain my confidence that they know how to watch my back. And me knowing what they will do so I can watch their backs, too.
2. PuGs may not know the win conditions of each and every map.
3. PuGs may not know the synergy of different people's bars in the build.
4. PuGs definately do not know my voice or anybody else's for that matter. I have gotten used to just hearing a friend say, "I'm blind " and the condition being promptly removed with no confusion.
5. etc, etc

Why ranked PuGs over unranked:

1. They have played at least enough to see the first 3 maps and hopefully know what to expect, meta wise.
2. When asked to grab the ghost on a relic run, they will normally respond with, "**** you, I'm no newb!" :grin:
3. They know how to connect using TS or Ventrilo and many have microphones.
4. They more often know what information to pass via vent.
5. They are generally not afraid to ask questions about a non-cookie cutter build and what their roles are to be. Plus, they will have the skills (unlocks)and generally some experience in the role you ask them to fill.
6. They are more likely to know what the other team is running and how to counter it, without us having to explain in detail to them.

Hag E Nees
22-01-2007, 14:38
I think rank is a load of bollox to be honest... I've played with r6+ players that had less of a clue than an average unranked player.

I think people shouldn't be up their own arse that much and be more willing to teach newcomers what HA is about. How can you expect people without high ranked friends to have a rank when nobody is willing to help them achieve that?

If nobody wants to let you into their groups because they feel they're better than you and you can't be arsed with PUG groups since you won't learn what u want to learn from them... well... basically you can write of HA then, cause you'll never get in.

I'm glad I've got a couple of ranked friends that learned me the tricks of the trade and got me to my rank 3... but I feel sorry for the newcomers that don't have those contacts.

The rank elitism in HA is just too pathetic for words really... one of the few things that disappoint me in this game. But it's not the game, it's the people...

Shadowleaf
22-01-2007, 16:10
The rank elitism in HA is just too pathetic for words really... one of the few things that disappoint me in this game. But it's not the game, it's the people...


I disagree. It's the game. Why?

The only way to learn to be good at HA is to play with good people so that they can tell you when you've made a mistake, give you important information, etc...

But you can't expect an experienced person to go around training noobs all day. It's very time consuming and sometimes, perhaps often, fruitless. I mean, it takes many sessions of play with experienced people for an inexperienced person to catch on. You can really only do that with your friends.

ANET is basically relying on players to teach other players all of the important aspects of their game. You don't learn anything useful (in fact, you learn very stupid things) from the (severly limited) game documentation.

Honestly, do I need to say more?

/2

Oh and on topic... OP, use observer mode a lot. Ask questions in Observer Chat about the match if you don't understand something, if you disagree with a team's tactics, are curious about anything, etc... Unlock the skills you see people using because then you'll more likely be prepared for actually playing HA yourself. Learn how and why people use the builds they do and then you will be knowledgable enough that groups will probably not kick you. If you get good enough, you might be able to occassionally play with higher ranked groups. Sometimes they don't mind bringing along a newer, but quickly learning player. Just sometimes. :) (don't be annoying and beg them or anything though)

Also, remember, PvE terms do not translate to PvP. "Tanks" do not exist, "Aggro" does not exist. Physical Attackers, therefore, max out their Weapon Mastery and don't bring much in the way of self healing or defense. In fact, most Warriors in HA have literally no self healing. Distracting Blow is more valuable to the team than Healing Signet, for example.

Which reminds me, saying you're quite experienced in PvE means nothing in PvP. In fact, many PvPers will take you far less seriously for mentioning it. Whether or not this is fair or justified is completely irrelevant, it's just not something you should say.

B Ephekt
22-01-2007, 19:27
I think people shouldn't be up their own arse that much and be more willing to teach newcomers what HA is about. How can you expect people without high ranked friends to have a rank when nobody is willing to help them achieve that? Sorry, but when I load up HA I want to actually go in and have some fun playing, not spend my time holding someone else's hand through learning how to play. There are a lot of options for self-education in that regard - battles isles, playing with friends, joining a pvp guild, etc - so I shouldn't have to spend my limited play time teaching anyone anything.


The rank elitism in HA is just too pathetic for words really... one of the few things that disappoint me in this game. But it's not the game, it's the people...Rank elitism doesn't exist. There are players who have experience and want to win, and there are players who lack experience and need to gain it. The problem is that most inexperienced players would rather complain about not being able to get into r9+ groups instead of actually making an effort to gain some experience. Trust me, the players who are r9+ now were once inexperienced unranked players, they just made an effort instead of constantly complaining in game and on fansites.



Also, remember, PvE terms do not translate to PvP. "Tanks" do not exist, "Aggro" does not exist.You might be surprised how effectively you can "aggro" most teams in pvp. :grin:

Darknicrofia
22-01-2007, 20:43
the term rank elitism is created by unranked people thinking that they are rejected from teams simply because of their rank, or lack of.

the ACTUAL reason is, the group does not know you, back in the old tombs days, most good players knew each other very well and are familiar with each other's playing style/voice. When a pug comes by asking for a group invite, several things may happen. The more mature ppl in the group will kindly reject them, the less mature may reject them less kindly.

thus the unranked pug gets frustrated, but remember that those people who just rejected you may have had a bad day so they are on edge at that particular moment, or sometimes they are just *****, (quite a few in HA).

Back in the old days when pRp would hold constantly, everyone and their uncles would try to get into their group, but remember, they have their own set of people/friends to contact, rank in pugging only becomes a factor when the group has no friends online, then they would pick up a ranked pug over an unranked pug, because lets face it, wouldn't you?

However, it has been stated MANY MANY times, ranked friends/guild group is probably the only type of group that can actually win halls consistantly, a group of 8 or 6 very experienced/skilled players that do not know each other at all will likely not go very far because after all, GW pvp is a team effort.

P.S. getting your rank emotes won't bring you as much satisfaction as you think, most rank 11 players are only trying to get their rank 12 because they want to get it over with. I was more excited about my deer emote than i ever was about my tiger.

Shadowleaf
22-01-2007, 20:58
You might be surprised how effectively you can "aggro" most teams in pvp. :grin:

rofl, so true. XD

priam
22-01-2007, 21:47
I'm fairly new to the PvP aspect of GW. Part of this was because of the intimidation in HA...first few PuG's I tried were very critical and rude. "You don't have TAINTED FLESH YOU NOOB GET OUT <kick>". From that point on, I was very skiddish about it. However, observer mode kicked in and I was like "man that's cool". Well my guild ended up merging with another small guild (only 10 ppl), with some very experienced HA'ers. They fairly rapidly got me going in HA and then I gained some confidence.

Since then, I have ventured upon HA quite a bit, and joined some PUG's and such. A lot of groups, mind you I stay away from the "LF SF" groups, although that's a good way to get into HA and just learn the maps (one of the biggest things i think!!), have yielded some very fun and interesting times. It's fun to make it to halls, and have someone in your group say "oh what do we do here i've never been here)!! and then they got lost in our own area .. but anyways I got off on a tangent. The biggest thing was I went in with a profession I felt really comfortable playing, and somewhat knowledgable. This has helped in several different occasions...even with ranked groups. I would pm whoever was advertising for the group, and let them know what I could run, how i have experience in HA, and would like to join their group. Many, many, many groups have then let me in. Howerver, there are those that are very rude saying, "show me your emote or leave".

Anyhow, these groups have taught me a lot, and I have made many friends just through PUG'ing. I tend to join the balanced PUG's over the FOTM ones even if they are unranked, however you will know almost INSTANTLY what kind of group it is. These groups tend to yield a friend or two in the long run which I HA with quite frequently. Having friends make for a great experience!!!

Ok i guess back to topic...the rank elitism exists only because those individuals have played with an organized team. Going in with a PUG that is just going in to go in, not checking builds, having no strategy, is frustrating and not enjoyable. This was the reason for my shunning of HA in the beginning. However, one trip, with friends or a group that is organized, I can easily see why the elitism exists. However, rank is nothing compared to the friends list :laugh:

Mathius Clarkus
20-02-2007, 22:28
indeed. Unfortunately for many people the constant barrage of criticism turns them of pvp forever. (though i do understand it being snipish after a few losses myself)

Wuzzman
21-02-2007, 02:40
The general guide for ha, especially for new people.

*When you pug always require Vent or TS, never expect much if a team doesn't use it, I don't care if your ranked or unranked this is a requirement especially for balance groups

*Unlock the skills to the common builds, if you just want to play a ranger then find the common fotm build for a ranger and start unlocking the skills

*Watch observe mode, the builds you see more then once or twice are part of what we call the metagame. The simplest way to describe the metagame at your level if new is pug ability. If the build you watched in oberseve mode is being asked for in districts learn the build and start unlocking skills for it

*Do not feel bias against any build. Your not above anything being pugged if you don't want to sit in hero ascent for an 1 hour without even being in a group. However if you don't mind doing nothing then you can be more prudent in what request ("lf ***") you answer to.

*Make a pvp only character. In pvp your skill matters more then your character. Being able to reinvent your toon on the fly is what stops a team leader from picking you over another person trying to take your spot. Remember half of hero ascent is making life easier for your party leader. If he has to sit and wait 30 minutes for you to do what someone else can do in 10, with 6 other people waiting to enter battle I don't think your going to stay in that group long. Also its a matter of respect for the arena. When I'm in pve I use a pve toon but when I pvp I do it with a pvp toon, clinging to the pve side of your gameplay will not get you far in pvp.

*Be friendly, always try to reach out a hand to make friends. And if your seriouse about pvp join a pvp guild. A friend or guild groups always make it further then a group of 8 r12's who don't know each other. The people who reach the Hall of Heroes are almost always a combination of guild groups and a team of friends. Don't get depressed if a ranked team doesn't let you join there group. You will see them coming right back to the same spot they were in 7 minutes later after they left.

Snype Doesnt Heal
21-02-2007, 03:26
hiya HA lovers!

i wanted to share a thought of mine.
i think it is quite sad that only the ranked players, and not the complete new ones, dont have a large chance to enter a party. and the few times i entered one, people started calling me dumm and idiot, did you ever play HA before etc. But to say from myself: i'm a quite experienced player in PVE and also a bit PVP, but i only have 4 fame for the moment.
And then more: al: the different builds and specifications: if i manage to enter a party, people kick me because i dont have one particular skill!!
if somebody has some HA tips and hints for me, plz tell me, because i want to enjoy doing PVP, not being ignored!!

we all went through it, get over it, make your own groups

Tucks
21-02-2007, 20:44
we all went through it, get over it, make your own groups

I agree with Snype, i honestly believe that a lot of so called elitism is laziness of the part of new players who just want to mess with the big boys without first learning the playground rules.

The thing that i find amusing is that all these people whining that ranked players wont play with them also don't want to play with fellow unranked players. They say they do, but whenever you ask them they say there aren't enough of them, despite all the evidence on the contrary.

dekboi
21-02-2007, 21:54
C+Space, 123124142124662184682368263126486482648, res, 172392817323872378737237728323 = Win PVE


Do that in DoA.

pfft wee....

Wuzzman
21-02-2007, 22:40
Do that in DoA.

pfft wee....

DoA is one pve mission. What about the dozens of others that can be done with a team of 8 wammos.

Savsuds
22-02-2007, 03:27
DoA is one pve mission. What about the dozens of others that can be done with a team of 8 wammos.

Don't forget some people from MATH did every single mission in Prophecies running IWAY.

kongkingx
22-02-2007, 07:03
most of those rank10+ people now are the same noob people who were like "hi can i join your iway group, can i join your iway guild, can we make iway group now coz i need fame?" and after they got what they want, they ditch you and call you noob and forget that they played and got most of their fame in iway.

the same noob people. i wished i just flashed my emote and called them "noob" back then.

CassiusDrehyg
22-02-2007, 09:17
most of those rank10+ people now are the same noob people who were like "hi can i join your iway group, can i join your iway guild, can we make iway group now coz i need fame?" and after they got what they want, they ditch you and call you noob and forget that they played and got most of their fame in iway.

the same noob people. i wished i just flashed my emote and called them "noob" back then.

Okay here's the deal. You are not special at all because you ground a deer with unranked IWAY pugs. Your opinion is not wanted.


Do that in DoA.

pfft wee....


DoA sucks, when will people understand? People still won't use Vent there, and even if they do 99% of the players don't have a mic.



hiya HA lovers!

i wanted to share a thought of mine.
i think it is quite sad that only the ranked players, and not the complete new ones, dont have a large chance to enter a party. and the few times i entered one, people started calling me dumm and idiot, did you ever play HA before etc. But to say from myself: i'm a quite experienced player in PVE and also a bit PVP, but i only have 4 fame for the moment.
And then more: al: the different builds and specifications: if i manage to enter a party, people kick me because i dont have one particular skill!!
if somebody has some HA tips and hints for me, plz tell me, because i want to enjoy doing PVP, not being ignored!!


If you don't want to be ignored, come up with a build and start a group rather than crying to ranked people because you can't get into theirs. People in HA play to win, and always will, whether Jimmy Wammo who can't get into groups likes it or not.

ImSoToast
22-02-2007, 10:30
Do that in DoA.

pfft wee....

Is this a joke? Were you being sarcastic?

Doa is exaclty 123245566 or whatever your comenting about. Yes it takes soooooo much skill to exploit the ai, use a obs flesh tank to hold aggro, because the ai is too stupid to go around the tank. Crap doa is nothing more than memorizing the creatures pathing/spawning, knowing all choke points or good cluster points.

**** only credit I give is to the people to think of new ways of exploiting the ai.

Raven Flameheart
22-02-2007, 11:13
Don't forget some people from MATH did every single mission in Prophecies running IWAY.

Yes, but teams have held halls with Hamstorm.

I have seen a lot of very good PvP players fail completely and utterly at PvE. There's a lot more to the AI than is given credit for, and I've witnessed r9 players cause teams untold grief because they don't know how to take and hold aggro, how to pull, or how to be patient.

Whilst rank helps, it's not the be-all-and-end all. Getting groups in HA is not hard provided you know a) how to ask, b) what you play that's wanted, and c) how to make sure other people know you're not an idiot. You will definately need a lot of skills unlocked, and if a team is going for a cookie build, I can see why they would kick you for not being able to fill a role.

kongkingx
22-02-2007, 19:56
Okay here's the deal. You are not special at all because you ground a deer with unranked IWAY pugs. Your opinion is not wanted.

you're prolly a pve noob with 15 fame.

CassiusDrehyg
22-02-2007, 21:15
you're prolly a pve noob with 15 fame.

Seriously scrubcake, I'm glad people like you are discriminated against in HA. Go run Lutgardis for your stupid Kurzick title nub.

kongkingx
22-02-2007, 22:13
Seriously scrubcake, I'm glad people like you are discriminated against in HA. Go run Lutgardis for your stupid Kurzick title nub.


what rank are you scrub? i bet you had only 2 fame when im already spamming my tiger.

Ranger Nietzsche
23-02-2007, 07:06
wtf has this thread turned into? stop calling each other idiotic internet and video game slangs, you sound even worse than the theoretical HA rank griefers that new players are always complaining about.

I mean, the OP hasn't posted since the first page, in which s/he expressed a positive desire to become a good player on their own and no one else's merits. So I don't even know wtf the argument is about.

HA is about kicking ***, taking names and acting like MEN and WOMEN, not children

Aiiane
23-02-2007, 08:27
And people wonder why some other people have negative views of PvP players... luckily, I happen to know that this thread does not display a comprehensive representation of the PvP playerbase.

Apparently the popularity of good sportsmanship died with internet anonymity, though.

thedrjay
23-02-2007, 13:26
Suppose that rank is meaningless. If this is true, then an unranked person should be able to gather unranked people and perform equally as well as the ranked people. As such, there should be no desire to enter ranked groups in the first place. The complaint is negated.

Suppose that rank is meaningful. If this is true, then why should it be wrong or surprising that the ranked exclude the unranked from teams? As such, there should be no opportunity to enter ranked groups in the first place and the complaint is negated.

If you can solve my dilemma, I'll take you seriously with regards to "elitism being a problem". I rather doubt you will though.

laf
23-02-2007, 17:03
everything in your h screen is meant to be personal achievment and should not be displayed in publick.

Savsuds
24-02-2007, 00:49
everything in your h screen is meant to be personal achievment and should not be displayed in publick.
Sorry, but my lucky title goes with me everywhere.:grin:

JoeKnowMo
24-02-2007, 10:42
Too many people forgot that this is a freakin GAME. If you're taking it as seriously as some posters here, well, it's time to get a real life.

HA does not have any decent training grounds. So when you go in, expect to get a lot of crap from others your first few trips as you'll still be learning. Use observer mode and copy the cookie cutter builds you see.

Read forums for the builds that people complain the most about and say is cheap, then play those builds.

Tucks
24-02-2007, 17:08
This thread is hilarious.
It has turned into some huge flame fest, the best kind of thread there is.

Tiyuri
24-02-2007, 17:14
Rank is everything.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/830/tiger6ka.jpg

Dark Shinobi
25-02-2007, 04:28
Rank is everything.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/830/tiger6ka.jpg

Isn't that obvious? I mean, 1 > 0 read it as 1 is greater than zero. Therefore rank 1 > rank 0, and rank 1 players > rank 0 players. The rest follows by induction.

You see, rank means something lol

Tiyuri
25-02-2007, 05:49
Isn't that obvious? I mean, 1 > 0 read it as 1 is greater than zero. Therefore rank 1 > rank 0, and rank 1 players > rank 0 players. The rest follows by induction.

You see, rank means something lol

No it means EVERYTHING.

higher ranked people are better human beings.

nightrunner
25-02-2007, 18:54
More E-drama Imo

rentauri
25-02-2007, 20:39
Only time I really saw the discrimination was generally in PuGs. But again there are good high ranked HAers and bad one (calling new people trying to learn noobs and other being a royal *** basically) just like it exists in every area. It does exist but on a far less level then many thing, maybe because many left to play other things but I figured it is because one person to enjoys spoiling others fun seem like am army of people trying to spoils peoples fun.

Another Fess
26-02-2007, 07:33
higher ranked people are better human beings.
nah yesterday i played ZB monk (only 160 fame) in RA and healed 2 wars with frenzy and without brains and 1 stupid necro against 2 shutdown mesmers, grenth dervish and ZB monk. That monk showed wolf and was pwned by my team.
And you say that....

JodoKast
26-02-2007, 13:34
Suppose that rank is meaningless. If this is true, then an unranked person should be able to gather unranked people and perform equally as well as the ranked people. As such, there should be no desire to enter ranked groups in the first place. The complaint is negated.

Suppose that rank is meaningful. If this is true, then why should it be wrong or surprising that the ranked exclude the unranked from teams? As such, there should be no opportunity to enter ranked groups in the first place and the complaint is negated.

If you can solve my dilemma, I'll take you seriously with regards to "elitism being a problem". I rather doubt you will though.

Rank is a measure of your "all time" success in HA.

It could have been gained 1.5 year ago and not practiced under the current metagame, it could have been gained with thousands of 1 fame trips in underworld or it could also have been gained very quickly by highly succesful teams in a short period of time.

Rank doesn't equal to skill, which itself is a very subjective concept anyway. It "only" mirrors your success in HA.

Rank is a facilitator when forming pick up groups as it is the only usable way to assess the level of someone you never met before. If there was no ranking, there would be no way to assess people's experience and thus no reliable way to create group out of random people : everybody would rather play with people they know than to pug.

Note that this is already the case today, rank "discrimination" only happens on pick up group formation, and most top HA players play with friends from their list/guild already.


Rank "Elitism" is an entirely different problem than what you are describing here thedrjay, it involves top player getting is such an Elite state of mind that they start posting scandalous things like :


No it means EVERYTHING.

higher ranked people are better human beings.

Rank as a mean to form groups : very logical. Rank as an excuse to treat other people as inferiors = big problem.

thedrjay
26-02-2007, 15:39
Rank is a measure of your "all time" success in HA.

It could have been gained 1.5 year ago and not practiced under the current metagame, it could have been gained with thousands of 1 fame trips in underworld or it could also have been gained very quickly by highly succesful teams in a short period of time.

Rank doesn't equal to skill, which itself is a very subjective concept anyway. It "only" mirrors your success in HA.

Rank is a facilitator when forming pick up groups as it is the only usable way to assess the level of someone you never met before. If there was no ranking, there would be no way to assess people's experience and thus no reliable way to create group out of random people : everybody would rather play with people they know than to pug.

Note that this is already the case today, rank "discrimination" only happens on pick up group formation, and most top HA players play with friends from their list/guild already.


Rank "Elitism" is an entirely different problem than what you are describing here thedrjay, it involves top player getting is such an Elite state of mind that they start posting scandalous things like :



Rank as a mean to form groups : very logical. Rank as an excuse to treat other people as inferiors = big problem.

Rank Elitism occurs because players either think rank has meaning or it does not. If rank has meaning, there's a reason why the low ranked can't get into high ranked groups. It's because we're better than you are.

If rank has no meaning then let the unranked groups with other unranked and be just as good as the ranked players.

JodoKast
26-02-2007, 16:32
Rank Elitism occurs because players either think rank has meaning or it does not. If rank has meaning, there's a reason why the low ranked can't get into high ranked groups. It's because we're better than you are.

If rank has no meaning then let the unranked groups with other unranked and be just as good as the ranked players.

I fully agreed with that and that is not what rank Elitism is about as per my definition.

Rank as a facilitator to get into group = very logical, i have absolutely no quarrel with this. It is absolutely normal that high ranked people band with each other to play HA.

Rank as a bragging argument that allows you to treat other people like underbeings in about any GW related topic is on the other hand, totally unbearable.

Sadly, the few people that do it give a bad name to the whole pvp community.

Buddah
26-02-2007, 16:50
No it means EVERYTHING.

higher ranked people are better human beings.
You make a grand claim, then quickly prove it's false with your own actions.

Tiyuri
26-02-2007, 17:29
You make a grand claim, then quickly prove it's false with your own actions.

And you are incapable of understanding sarcasm.

JoeKnowMo
26-02-2007, 17:36
No it means EVERYTHING.

higher ranked people are better human beings.

Gold trim cape means EVERYTHING.

PvPers without gold trim need to go back to PvE. Rank is, was, and always will be for nubs who can't make it to the top in real PvP.

Everyone knows that the true order of human beings is
Gold Trim > PvEers > Pre-Searing scrubs > Rank flashers

Tiyuri
26-02-2007, 17:56
Gold trim cape means EVERYTHING.

PvPers without gold trim need to go back to PvE. Rank is, was, and always will be for nubs who can't make it to the top in real PvP.

Everyone knows that the true order of human beings is
Gold Trim > PvEers > Pre-Searing scrubs > Rank flashers

Hahaha

you play the game well my friend,

Glyph of sac + meteor shower means everything.

Glyph Sac + MS > Gold Trim

thedrjay
26-02-2007, 18:19
Gold trim cape means EVERYTHING.

PvPers without gold trim need to go back to PvE. Rank is, was, and always will be for nubs who can't make it to the top in real PvP.

Everyone knows that the true order of human beings is
Gold Trim > PvEers > Pre-Searing scrubs > Rank flashers


We'll stall till VoD then nuke the NPC's!

Another Fess
27-02-2007, 11:27
You cant get Gold trim wothout team. If you cant find team.... you cant get it.

Shuuda
27-02-2007, 12:20
In the end, there is only 1 truth, which is:

Flashing an emote in someones face, thinking it makes you better than them = noobish.

Winning in HoH with a good (none cookie cutter) build = skilfull.

This cannot be denied.

Tucks
27-02-2007, 17:13
In the end, there is only 1 truth, which is:

Flashing an emote in someones face, thinking it makes you better than them = noobish.

Winning in HoH with a good (none cookie cutter) build = skilfull.

This cannot be denied.

Erm, i have been purposely ganked out of halls more times then i can remember, and a few times because some new players had no clue what to do so they just attacked the holding team. Anyway, current halls skill level is at an all time low.

JoeKnowMo
27-02-2007, 18:17
You cant get Gold trim wothout team. If you cant find team.... you cant get it.

Unless you know the Glyph of Sac + MS combo, then you don't need a team. You can just solo your way to gold trim :D

It's true that Halls skill level is at an all time low. I long for the good old days of heroway... my heroes didn't discriminate against me based on my rank. Though I still won't take Dunkoro cuz he's an RA nub ifyouknowwhatImean.

Another Fess
28-02-2007, 08:56
iknowwhatyoumean.
But if i interrupt your Glyph of Sac, what will you do? Or if i run out of MS? Only tem can win with honour.

Tucks
28-02-2007, 18:18
iknowwhatyoumean.
But if i interrupt your Glyph of Sac, what will you do? Or if i run out of MS? Only tem can win with honour.

Lol, it isn't directed at the players, its for wiping NPC's at VoD.

Uda Duno
01-03-2007, 08:35
npcs dont move out of ms even with new ai. Where as (hopefully but not always) players do. Yes fun to see the npcs get nuked.

Alleji
01-03-2007, 13:07
Flashing an emote in someones face, thinking it makes you better than them = noobish.

Winning in HoH with a good (none cookie cutter) build = skilfull.What if you hold HoH with a good "none cookie cutter" build and flash rank everyone while you do it?

halfthought
01-03-2007, 22:02
In the end, there is only 1 truth, which is:

Flashing an emote in someones face, thinking it makes you better than them = noobish.

Winning in HoH with a good (none cookie cutter) build = skilfull.

This cannot be denied.

What? Then less then .000001% of the game is skillful. I consider myself a average HA'er, been to halls (almost) 100 times, and have NEVER seen a non cookie cutter win.......

I don't understand the hate towards cookie-cutters, its not the build, its the skill....a all guild team could wipe you with whammoway, and you know those r9 teams GLF? guess what, they never (well, considering todays decadent HA they do....) win..... even holding halls with a cookie cutter build is a skillful.........

Shuuda
01-03-2007, 23:14
That's what is so skillful about winning with a none cookie cutter build, it happens so rarely, if it wins, it must be better than the average build.

Jummeh
01-03-2007, 23:42
Well I have to say this, but even "cookie cutter" builds have huge variation, and playstyle variation.

It takes communication and tactics to win and hold halls. Its actually being able to beat all the other cookie cutter builds. And since they are constantly evolving then you won't get a really strong build for long (unless something is broken... Signet of Might ...)

If a build wins a lot, other people will build counters and/or try to play it better than you or modify it to make it stronger. I wish people will stop crying about "cookie cutter" this and "cookie cutter" that.

Tucks
02-03-2007, 00:01
That's what is so skillful about winning with a none cookie cutter build, it happens so rarely, if it wins, it must be better than the average build.

Considering i have done that loads of times, i must be a GW god. All ye preach to me.

/sarcasm

penguinious
07-03-2007, 21:53
No it means EVERYTHING.

higher ranked people are better human beings.

really?

IMAO in no way does grinding HA every night make you a better human being. Flashing a high rank emote, then flaming "PvE noobs" because you have nothing better to do with life does not make you a better human being.

The ability to consider others (even "PvE noobs:azn: " , and to be a friend to anyone (As long as they are not attacking you) makes you a better human being.

This is not targeted at specifically at anyone, just some of the opinions i've seen running around on GW, and I thought this quote seemed to sum up the feelings nicely.

I've met a tiger in a PvE group, and whenever criticized for any mistake , response-

"Can you tiger? Can you tiger? Then shut up noob" - kk... What a perfect human being.

Time to flame me. :afro:

PS- I am a PvE noob (Although I am getting rather bored of it)

halfthought
07-03-2007, 23:04
Considering i have done that loads of times, i must be a GW god. All ye preach to me.

/sarcasm

what build were you using? I'd like to see if was truely orignal......


really?

IMAO in no way does grinding HA every night make you a better human being. Flashing a high rank emote, then flaming "PvE noobs" because you have nothing better to do with life does not make you a better human being.

The ability to consider others (even "PvE noobs:azn: " , and to be a friend to anyone (As long as they are not attacking you) makes you a better human being.

This is not targeted at specifically at anyone, just some of the opinions i've seen running around on GW, and I thought this quote seemed to sum up the feelings nicely.

I've met a tiger in a PvE group, and whenever criticized for any mistake , response-

"Can you tiger? Can you tiger? Then shut up noob" - kk... What a perfect human being.

Time to flame me. :afro:

PS- I am a PvE noob (Although I am getting rather bored of it)

tiyuri i've noticed is way too sarcastic, or a troll :afro:

Darko the MM
13-03-2007, 02:01
I'm pretty sure 8v8 will come back due to the polls, and when it does, make a few IWAY groups. :)

nightrunner
13-03-2007, 03:38
what build were you using? I'd like to see if was truely orignal......

There is no such thing an original build. Everything has been run before. There are only builds or skill combos that aren't popular.

Natus
13-03-2007, 16:34
IWAY or the highway!