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teh Monkeys
03-01-2007, 21:34
I decided I'd sum up all my beliefs and rantings about the gods in one nice pseudo-heretical paper for you all to enjoy. Or not. Regardless, I was very bored, so I wrote this.

I. Define 'god'.

Gods, in Guild Wars, are not all powerful. Gods are not all-knowing. Gods are imperfect beings, with limited scary divine power.

Sure, being able to call down divine judgement from the heavens, smiting one's enemies and creating worlds is nice and all, but with the proper tools and knowledge, mankind could probably do it himself, if not better.

It's easy to impress an ignorant mob with shiny 'divine powers', and it's almost as easy to convince them that you are an all powerful god, while you are nothing more than some guy floating on a couple of clouds who's making one hell of a light show with a bunch of smoke an mirrors. (Looong sentance.)

The gods have limited power and influence. Balthazar cannot simply snap his fingers and make the shadow army and Menzies go away. No, he needs you, a mortal hobo, to save his butt. Same with Grenth. He can't even defend his own freaking dimension without you.

GW Gods are powerful, but they are not as powerful as in realworld religion. (Not even Graeco-Roman mythos.)


"Abaddon is dead. And I assure you, Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did.

Grenth already has some experience in getting rid of annoying gods (Dhuum), so it is fair to assume that Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon and distribute his power among the other gods. The other gods disagreed and chose to lock Abaddon away.

The point of this is to show that the gods do not always agree. The gods don't always see eye to eye, and the gods are not perfect.

The gods should have known that locking away Abaddon in the realm of Torment could not possibly have been a good solution.

GW gods are not all knowing, they suffer from human flaws, and are st00pid.


"They say that ours was the first, but that the gods created other worlds after the Exodus."

'The gods' refers to the known pantheon. 'Our world' refers to Tyria, and according to Kenan, it was the first world the known pantheon created. This does not mean that Tyria was the first world ever created.

I know this how? Quite simple. The pantheon summoned a race of beings to Tyria. An established race, which adhered to an elaborate culture etc. etc. and so forth. Point being, the forgotten were created somewhere else, and thus there has to be atleast one more planet before Tyria. Possibly many more. Millions more, perhaps.

Sooo.. the Forgotten are not a race created by the known pantheon. The gods were still experimenting with creating life and just creating all sorts of crap just for the hell of it. Giganticus Lupicus? Died of mass extinction due to bad management. Titans? Sent to the Foundry of Failed Creations because, well, they failed. (I'm sure the gods had certain criteria in order to label a creature as 'failed'.)

My point is, is that the gods were unable to fabricate this race of Serpents by themselves, so they summoned them from elsewhere, perhaps from worlds created by their predecessors.


"And so by mortal hands did a new immortal enter creation.

[...]

Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed."

A god in GW is part of a group of beings classified as immortals; the ruling class of the Mists. The power of an immortal can not be destroyed, but an immortal can be destroyed. The logical conclusion, therefor, is that gods are nothing more than shells wielding certain divine powers within the mists.

What should also be noted is that there is most likely a finite number of titles, or divine powers. Which is why we don't have multiple gods of war fighting for the title. One could argue that Dhuum and Grenth are both gods of Death, but you have to realize that Dhuum no longer is god of Death, and Grenth is. Dhuum is a fallen god, he no longer holds sway over the souls of the dead, and he has very little control over what happens in his former domain. Whatever Grenth was before becoming a true god, he managed to ursurp Dhuum's power, and made it his own (though Dhuum still has some strength left. Which is arguably why Grenth can never fully control the Underworld.)


"I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he maybe supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor."

There were other gods before Abaddon. Atleast three, according to the Apostate; Abaddon's unnamed predecessor, and atleast one unnamed god.

We know for a fact that Grenth has overthrown Dhuum as god of Death.
We know for a fact that Menzies is fighting with Balthazar for control of the Fissure of Woe, and ulimately, Balthazar's power.
We know for a fact that the Great Dwarf fought with the Great Destroyer. (Though it could be argued that this was infact a fight between Balthazar and Menzies.)

These gods, these immortals, are in constant conflict with one another, fighting for control, fighting for eachother's power. Though the ruling gods most likely realised that by working together, they would have greater chance of staying in power, which is why the formed the pantheon.

Some gods are more powerful than others, as it should be noted that it took the entire Pantheon, five gods, to take down Abaddon, a single god.



Menzies is Balthazar's half brother. He is referd to as the Lord of Destruction, and not as God of Destruction. He is not a full god, but a minor deity. (Most likely the same as Grenth was before he overthrew Dhuum) Being the half brother of Balthazar means that both have one parent in common. That means that Menzies is the child of one immortal, or of one of the other deities inside the mists that prey upon their power, as is Balthazar, and another being unrelated to Balthazar. Balthazar became a god, Menzies didn't. Family feud.


and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.

There has been much debate lately about a phenomenon called 'pulling a Kormir'. The consensus is that any mortal can ursurp a god if he or she has the will and strength to do so. However, the manuscripts of Kormir are somewhat misleading. They state that Kormir made a choice only a mortal could make and then she just became a god. However, in the Gate of Madness mission, the avatars of the gods give Kormir a 'gift' which only a mortal can use. This 'gift' is what presented Kormir the oppertunity to become a god, not just her status as a mortal being. So the criteria of pulling of a Kormir is not simply 'be a mortal and kick a god's arse.' It involves something more, someting related to the ruling powers of the mists, probably. Though I don't have a clue what this 'gift' could be.



The gods lie. A lot.


"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here."


"We are the keepers of Abaddon. Our Task has been complicated of late by the aid the dark god has received from the fallen god, Dhuum, as well as Balthazar's half brother Menzies."

The Reaper, and thus Grenth, lied.

The Exodus of the gods is a lie. They never left Tyria. They're watching you.

Avatars are still present all across the world. The gods plea for your help to protect their domains. The gods even say they've been watching your fight with Abaddon. They're still watching Tyria, but they are unable or unwilling to act directly or manifest themselves on Tyria. (Maybe they're busy, maybe they're losing their power, maybe they're afraid of being exposed as a bunch of fakes by silly heretics on online game forums.)

The gods lied to us about the Crystal Desert, Nightfall, Abaddon and their origins. Why should we believe a word they say?


The scriptures of the gods are bullocks aswell. I mean, look at them:

Melandru: Some tribe doesn't respect nature, melandru gets pissed, tribe gets pissed at melandru, melandru then turns the tribe into a bunch of trees. Moral of the story; don't litter in the park/forest.

Balthazar: An army is tired of fighting and they feel their tactics are ineffective against their opponent. Balthazar comes along, he shows them some fireworks, sets theirs swords on fire, etc. and teaches them that the best way to win a battle is to gloriously run into the fray, laughing at the face of death as you go. Moral of the story; courage and honor, etc.

Lyssa: Some hobo walks into a town, but everyone tells her to gtfo. Some girl helps the hobo out, and the hobo reveals herself as the godess Lyssa. Moral of the story: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Dwayna: People die and get injured during a battle. Dwayna appears and heals everyone. Moral of the story: Care for the weak and wounded or you're going to rot in the underworld.

Grenth: Girl gets kicked out of town. She wants to kill everyone, or smething similar. She asks who can help her take revenge, and grenth tells her she can use the animated corpses of the dead to kill everything. Moral of the story: Desecrating someone's grave and/or corpse in order to animate it into your undead army of zombies, which you then you use to kill and rampage across the land is fine, aslong as you do it in Grenth's name.

The manuscripts are nothing more than scary stories that scare you into obiding the rules. They're propaganda, handed out to the first rulers of mankind, to help them subdue to populace.

And yes, Grenth is a freak.





II. Miscelanious divine specu.. truth. Yes. Quite.


But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world. They were not serpent nor beast. They were neither plant nor stone. These creatures had no chitinous hide to protect themselves. They had no claws to tear flesh. They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control.

Why on earth did the gods create mankind? It makes no sense. Everyone was happy, everyone was getting along nicely, there was balance and so forth. Then the gods come along, and they create some random race which is, well, let's be honest here, evil. And mankind ruined everything within centuries of their creation. Why on god's green earth would the gods create a creature that has one thing above all, on his mind? (Desire for control.)

It. makes. no. sense.

I originally thought that Dwayna created mankind, because she is the godess of life, but mankind is more warlike than any other race on Tyria, and dwayna isn't retarded. Only a being of great evil or stupidity would create a race like mankind.

Likely candidates:

- Abaddon
- One of Abbadon's predecessors
- Dhuum
- One of the Old Gods' predecessors

Reasons for creation of man are... A) Pissing off the pantheon by creating chaos and so forth. B) Experiment gone horribly wrong. C) I'll give a more lengthy explanation below.

C) I refer back to the act of pulling a Kormir. Any mortal race can, in theory, become a god. However, mankind, more than any race, has the desire and drive to become one. Could mankind have been created with exactly this purpose in mind?


More things that make me wonder:

The act of the exodus itself has always greatly puzzled me. We have this race of gods, who created a world in perfect balance, who mess it up by creating humans, then granting the gift of magic, and then they decide that their work is done here, and leave. Why the hell did they leave? Mankind was going to destroy the world. Their work was not done at all.


The act of granting magic to the mortal races. Ok, once more we first have a wonderful world, in which everyone is happy. Then the gods create humanity. Humanity pisses everyone and everything off by conquering Tyria, and butchering the local critters. Then, for one reason or another, Abaddon grants magic to all the races of the world. The result was that for the first time in over a 200 years, every last race on the face of the planet had a fighting chance against mankind, and more or less joined forces and kicked the collective as of mankind. As a result, mankind was almost wiped out, but the gods decided that we should be spared. What the hell? The mortal races of Tyria were going to fix the balance and all that stuff by getting rid of the humans. Why did the gods stop the magic when Doric yelled imba? Did they have some kind of 'divine plan' for mankind?

I'm not eveng oing to start about the seer & mursaat and their allegiances.

End.

Gmr Leon
03-01-2007, 22:03
Heh...I like how you summed all that up. Humans are evil, humans screwed the whole thing up.

That is funny though..Gods create mankind, hand out some magic here and there, mankind nearly dies, and then poor old Dwayna and her overly kind heart spare the humans. I swear if anyone persuaded the other gods to spare mankind it had to be Dwayna. She's overly loving and affectionate of..Every species.


I think anyway..Yes...That would mean the abominations created by Abaddon and even the Afflicted. Creepy thought, huh?

Quintus Antonius
03-01-2007, 23:55
Good write up. Might it also be possible that humans birthed themselves onto Tyria, rather than being created? As in, they came from somewhere else, or evolved naturally on Tyria.

Also, in my Odran Code paper, I suggested that the real reason the gods left is because they were afraid of how powerful mortals could become, and knew that their position would eventually be threatened by races like the Mursaat who find out about their secrets.

Ranger Nietzsche
04-01-2007, 00:49
mmm if the gods aren't omniscient it doesn't make sense to assume they are too smart to create mankind. maybe they were just dumb and didn't forsee the consequences:

here is dwayna's plan for humanity:

Step 1: Create Humans
Step 2: Humans create underpants.
Step 3: ....
Step 4: PROFIT!

Kalidri
04-01-2007, 01:25
Hmmm, given human nature I would also poke Balthazar as a possible daddy of humanity. He never strikes me as the brightest match in the book (well he is actually...his eyes are on fire)

Zaa Nayazu
04-01-2007, 02:23
I would also think of Balthazar because of how greedy humans in general can be. Greed brings about war and war, for Balthazar, is good for business.

Rob Van Der Sloot
04-01-2007, 03:29
Some corrections though, despite the good write up:


Grenth already has some experience in getting rid of annoying gods (Dhuum), so it is fair to assume that Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon and distribute his power among the other gods. The other gods disagreed and chose to lock Abaddon away.

There is no indication as far as I know, that Grenth would have wanted to destroy Abaddon. In fact, before you face Abaddon, it seems that the gods agree on what must be done. Grenth must have had his own reasons for taking Dhuum's mantle, but you jump to conclusions if you assume Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon. I simply do not see any evidence for this.


Titans? Sent to the Foundry of Failed Creations because, well, they failed.

Actually the titans were born from the Foundry. It is still unknown if the Foundry was named after the titans.

From the scribe:


In the Foundry of Failed Creations, your party of adventurers will face enemies with an all-too-familiar past. It is here that the great Titans were created by demonic forces within the Domain of Anguish. Were it not for this foundry, the Charr never would have attacked the human kingdoms of Tyria. Ascalon's fields would not have been scorched and destroyed by the Searing. Orr, the legendary home of the Five Gods, would have never sunk into the sea. Indeed, the Flame Seeker Prophecies could never have came to pass were it not for the twisted minds that created the horrific and sadistic false gods known as the Titans.

Walking into the birthplace of foes that have made life in Tyria a constant struggle is a truly humbling and yet enraging experience. However, do not give in to your desire to carelessly exact revenge, or you very well could become be the next victim in their catastrophic wake of carnage and destruction. Use your past experiences with these foes to your advantage, for what you learned in the past can and will save you now.

Quintus Antonius
04-01-2007, 03:53
Do we really know if the gods were in agreement? All we know is that their avatars were. For all we know, the gods are off somewhere completely unaware of what was going on. The Avatars seem more like Regents or Viziers than actual channels of the gods. Think about it. Who is defending the UW? The Reapers and us, who is defending the Fissue, the Eternals and us. It really seems that the gods don't exist, or at least, aren't around at all. When Abaddon breaks lose, we are the one's who have to clean it up. Even Menzies and Dhuum are never seen, only their armies. So how much influence do the various gods actually have?

Are they still alive? Probably. But they seem to be very recluse. Agreement among avatars is hardly what I would call agreement among gods. Assuming they are speaking directly from the gods, we don't know the debates the gods had to reach that concensus.

Rob Van Der Sloot
04-01-2007, 04:17
I assume that the avatars are just the voices of the gods, and nothing more. When the gods/avatars reach an agreement, and all the god shrines are activated, you receive power from all of the gods. I assume that these avatars would not possess such powers themselves. To me this is clear evidence that the power of the god they represent flows through them, and that they are directly connected to their gods.

Of course one might easily argue the opposite. But I would not discard the god's influence too quickly without some clear evidence.

You do make a strong point regarding the Underworld however Antonius. One has to wonder where Grenth's army is.

teh Monkeys
04-01-2007, 11:08
Might it also be possible that humans birthed themselves onto Tyria, rather than being created? As in, they came from somewhere else, or evolved naturally on Tyria.

In less than 2000 years? I doubt it.


Hmmm, given human nature I would also poke Balthazar as a possible daddy of humanity. He never strikes me as the brightest match in the book (well he is actually...his eyes are on fire)


I would also think of Balthazar because of how greedy humans in general can be. Greed brings about war and war, for Balthazar, is good for business.

Yes, Balthazar is a hotheaded idiot, but would he really create something like mankind because he was bored? Ok, maybe he wanted to have more wars, and balance and harmony wasn't his thing. But still, you'd think the other gods would get very, very pissed off at Balthazar. About as pissed off as they were at Abaddon when he gave magic to the mortals.



here is dwayna's plan for humanity:

Step 1: Create Humans
Step 2: Humans create underpants.
Step 3: ....
Step 4: PROFIT!

You watch too much Southpark, or you spend way too much time on 4chan. :p


Actually the titans were born from the Foundry. It is still unknown if the Foundry was named after the titans.

Oh. Heh, always figured the titans were very very bad first attempts at creating life by the gods. Kinda like a kid who gets his first crayons and attempts to create fine art.


There is no indication as far as I know, that Grenth would have wanted to destroy Abaddon. In fact, before you face Abaddon, it seems that the gods agree on what must be done. Grenth must have had his own reasons for taking Dhuum's mantle, but you jump to conclusions if you assume Grenth wanted to destroy Abaddon. I simply do not see any evidence for this.

Grenth will not make the same mistake the other gods made. As what would you interpret this, then?

I was refering to the first time the gods fought Abaddon. The gods decided that Abaddon needed to be locked away, eventhough they could have known that Abaddon could not stay in the RoT forever. Grenth, of all people, knew this for sure, and protested and desired a more permanent solution.

The second time around he got his way. The gods or avatars or whatnot, decided that we, the heroes, should be aided in destroying Abaddon. So it came to pass, and Grenth got his way.

Yes, it's speculation on my part. But most of my posts is usally nothing more. :p


I believe that the avatars of the gods have atleast some autonomy. Some probably even have their own personalities. However, they are ultimately bound to their patron deity, and they are bound to do his or her bidding, above all else. I don't think that an event as major as Abaddon rising would be handled by nothing but a few lowly avatars, while the gods themselves were off drinking tequila on some far-off divine beach-resort. Because the rise of Abaddon would not only endanger Tyria, it would endanger the gods themselves, so they would have to take action.

However, as I've said before, the gods are not omnipotent, and cannot be everywhere at once, and they do not know everything that's happening. They are imperfect beings, presenting themselves as gods, and they need help in making people believe they are gods, which is where the avatars come in.

Avatars create the illusion that the gods are still with you, that the gods care about what happens on your world, eventhough the gods themselves have left ages ago and will never return. They are divine sockpuppets, and mankind is the group of four year olds that's watching the show.


Do we really know if the gods were in agreement? All we know is that their avatars were. For all we know, the gods are off somewhere completely unaware of what was going on. The Avatars seem more like Regents or Viziers than actual channels of the gods. Think about it. Who is defending the UW? The Reapers and us, who is defending the Fissue, the Eternals and us. It really seems that the gods don't exist, or at least, aren't around at all. When Abaddon breaks lose, we are the one's who have to clean it up. Even Menzies and Dhuum are never seen, only their armies. So how much influence do the various gods actually have?

My point exactly.

These beings model themselves as all powerful gods, yet they are never even seen doing anything worthwhile. Their home domains are being invaded, and they don't even care enough to show themselves. For all we know, these gods could be nothing more than just a bunch really really big avatars (or just their leaders.), or just another group of mist-spawned daemons.

I refer back to the scriptures of the gods. These things are like the bible of Tyria. They are the foundation of worship of the old gods. But how on earth do we even know these events actually really happened? I mean look at them: Anonymous tribe goes into a forest, and Melandru forces them into taking good care of nature. Anonymous army is tired of battle, and Balthazar inspires them to fight to the death for pie and glory. Anonymous girl takes care of homeless woman when no-one else will. All of these scriptures are about teaching you a lesson, all these scriptures are about some random anonymous human who comes into contact with a god and learns this great wisdom. All of these scriptures are fairy tales.
Infact, the only scriptures that even have a historical basis are those of Dwayna, but the dates are screwed up, and they imply that Doric was a man who became around 150-200 years old.

Quintus Antonius
04-01-2007, 13:32
In regards to Doric, it is also possible that Doric had children also named Doric, as royal houses tend to do. But anyway, if we want to use the Bible as a template, people in the early days of the Bible lived for obscenely long times. And, we don't know the average lifespan of humans on Tyria, especially royality in a time when sustaining magic was freely available to all, it is not completely unlikely that Doric could be an inappropiately old fart.

teh Monkeys
04-01-2007, 14:01
By all rights, man in Tyria is the same as here on earth. We have health ensurance and hospitals and so forth, Tyrian man lives in a feudal world filled with scary monsters and so on. Unless Doric was part of subrace of ubermensch like the Dúnedain or Numenóreans, he could not have lived that long.

Magic was not available at that time. In the year 1 BE, Abaddon granted magic to the mortal races, 114 years after the events of the scriptures. So, the only thing I can think of, is that Dwayna elongated his life, for one reason or another.

But Doric wasn't even a noble at the time of the event described in the scriptures. So yes, the scriptures could just aswell be refering to Doric's father or grandfather.



Heh, apparantly the muppets over at GuildWiki believe that Dwayna's scriptures describe Doric's plea to the gods.


Might it also be possible that humans birthed themselves onto Tyria, rather than being created? As in, they came from somewhere else, or evolved naturally on Tyria.

Missed that part.

What are you suggesting? That the humans somehow managed to travel trough the mists and ended up on Tyria, like some kind of disease? If so, where did they come from, and how did they know how and where to travel?

Guess it's possible, but the lore states that the humans were 'birthed upon the world'.

Quintus Antonius
04-01-2007, 14:07
Yeah, I disagree with that one. I don't think it's Doric's plea to the gods either, since obviously that doesn't happen for a few more hundred years after those scriptures are written.

NeferJackal
04-01-2007, 18:06
I like the divine sockpuppet theory. Something to think about, when the Avatars speak to Kormir at the Temple of the Six Gods, they tell her that it's your world now. For me to see, they are handing her the world to be the prime god for, so they can go back to their divine beachparty. And we know Kormir is full of entusiasm, and she is a HUMAN god, first of a new generation of godlings.

It is my belief that we will gradually see a change in the Phanteon over time, as it takes more human aspects and influences. And the old gods leave fully, as they weren't truly human in origin. If I remember right, there was mentioned that when Doric entered the Rift to plead to the gods, he spoke with two giant red creatures that looked nothing like humans. But perhaps of a hint to the origin of the old gods, or more precisely, what which had shaped them before the rise of mankind.

Then a little nagging thought strikes me, Giganticus Lupicus......Doric meeting red giants. Could there be a connection there?

Quintus Antonius
04-01-2007, 18:19
He went to Arah, not the Rift. Odran went into the Rift.

NeferJackal
04-01-2007, 18:30
He went to Arah, not the Rift. Odran went into the Rift.

My bad, I meant Odran then, I dont have the manuscripts at hand. But my idea still stands with a possible connection to the now extinct giants.

teh Monkeys
04-01-2007, 19:39
Where did you read about Doric or Odran meeting with red giants?

And we don't know if GL is extinct. Lore simply states they walked off the Tyrian continent/planet.

As I noted before in my GL thread, Glint is the known pantheon's first creation. So it's very much possible that Giganticus Lupicus were either created by other gods, or are gods or something similar themselves.

NeferJackal
04-01-2007, 19:48
Where did you read about Doric or Odran meeting with red giants?

And we don't know if GL is extinct. Lore simply states they walked off the Tyrian continent/planet.

As I noted before in my GL thread, Glint is the known pantheon's first creation. So it's very much possible that Giganticus Lupicus were either created by other gods, or are gods or something similar themselves.

Found the post, by Quintus even, and it was Doric after all.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4609664&postcount=8

Quintus Antonius
04-01-2007, 20:45
I never questioned that you meant Doric, you just had your facts confused. Doric never entered the Rift, he simply went to Arah, the capital of Orr.

teh Monkeys
05-01-2007, 17:19
Oh, right, that post.

What Quintus was refering to was the conceptart in the manuscripts. The gods made themselves look gigantic and intimidating. They could probably take on almost any form they wanted to.

Giganticus Lupicus is, for lack of a better term, a pseudo-scientific name. Like how Tyrannosaurus Rex means tyrant lizard king. Giganticus Lupicus most likely refers to an actual species, not a god.

lightningprince
05-01-2007, 18:17
On the topic of Gods, could the Gods themselves be mortal beings that became divine? Here's an example of what I mean.

On some other world or plane, the pre-God Balthazar was a champion to the previous God of War/Fire. So he's this God's champion, killing stuff, and eventually thinks of taking over the throne for himself. So, he fight/assassinates the old God of War/Fire and takes the mantle.

Now, this is just a hypothetical example. If facts are wrong, dont worry, it really isnt a theory, just an example.

In classical pantheons, this happened quite a bit. In the Greek, for example, there was Chaos and Chaos gave birth to the Titans, and the Titans overthrew Chaos. Then the Titans gave birth to the Gods and the Gods overthrew the Titans. The only reason the line stopped was because Zeus ate the Goddess/nymph of cleverness so his sons wouldnt overthrow him, and so the story of Athena comes from.

Did any of that make any sense? It is just a thought.

ArieDeWizard
05-01-2007, 18:48
How do beliefs work in Tyria anyway? For example, how can the White Mantle not believe in the 5 'true gods' when there are avatars, magical statues and evidence that they actually lived in a city down on the planet?

To me personally it seems that religion in Tryia has nothing to do with believing (since there's pretty solid proof) but rather with accepting the existance of these gods and trying to benefit from them. Maybe the White Mantle never disputed the existance of the 'old gods' but simply thought they could have a greater benefit from the mursaat than from the pantheon.

NeferJackal
05-01-2007, 18:56
Well, Kryta is under Siege by Charr and Undead. The old gods 'left' the world long ago. And now we have the White Mantle with the unseen gods, saying they will protect you if you swear yourself to their new gods? What is a scared peasant going to do when things come to matter? Especially when the White Mantle actually holds the Charr and Undead at bay, bolstering public support and belief in them.

Why should they believe fickle gods who have abandoned them, when the Unseen are here and protects them?

Quintus Antonius
05-01-2007, 21:50
It's a belief in their reality and power, not so much their existance. It's not that they say the Old Gods don't exist, they even acknowledge them as the "Old Gods", it is more or less an acceptance of their divinity, and the practice of worshipping.

Mularc Templare
06-01-2007, 01:37
In reference to the "worship" concept, I think Quintus has the best description - "renewed" Pagan religions tend to teach this concept as one of the basic ones ~ "There are many gods in heaven, whether you see them or not."

As to the discussion on humans "birthing" to the world of Tyria, I seem references to previous gods, and find it completely logical that humans could have been created by another pathenon. One mortal traveled across the rifts, into the hall of Heros "manually", so why couldn't an entire race figure out how to do the same?

Mularc

Zaa Nayazu
06-01-2007, 17:35
Also I would like to point out, the manuscript says, humans settled in Northern cost of Cantha, not humans are birthed(sp) in Cantha. Before Chapters 2 and 3, it was refered to as Humans "appear" in the continent. It is never mentioned that the gods even created humans.
This is using the timeline, if we take a look at the story side of the Prophecies manual, it is the only thing that actually says, "But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world." Not that the Gods created a new race or we arrived from somewhere else. It really puzzles(sp) me that the lore is so shady about the origins of humanity.
I do think they were created by another pantheon since it is never mentioned that the Gods created them( this usually is in reference to the current pantheon). But I dont think they came from the rift, since it is noted that they were "birthed" in Tyria.

teh Monkeys
06-01-2007, 19:36
On the topic of Gods, could the Gods themselves be mortal beings that became divine? Here's an example of what I mean.

On some other world or plane, the pre-God Balthazar was a champion to the previous God of War/Fire. So he's this God's champion, killing stuff, and eventually thinks of taking over the throne for himself. So, he fight/assassinates the old God of War/Fire and takes the mantle.

This is pretty much exactly what I believe to be possible. (Though I also believe that pretty much anyone can become a god, whether he's mortal or some mist-spawned deity.) Though I can't definatly prove any of it ever actually happened, I don't believe that all the members of the current pantheon were the first and only gods. There are simply too many gaps in the lore. Giganticus Lupicus being the biggest one.


"Long ago, the god of death was challenged to a duel by two brothers. Grenth was so angered by these two mortals, that instead of simply granting them the sweet peace of death, he turned them into twin serpents and forced them to serve him in the Rift for the rest of eternity."

Grenth was challenged by mortals. Though the Reaper doesn't go into specifics, it is very much possible that Grenth was challenged for the power over his domain.

teh Monkeys
07-01-2007, 13:44
Also I would like to point out, the manuscript says, humans settled in Northern cost of Cantha, not humans are birthed(sp) in Cantha. Before Chapters 2 and 3, it was refered to as Humans "appear" in the continent. It is never mentioned that the gods even created humans.
This is using the timeline, if we take a look at the story side of the Prophecies manual, it is the only thing that actually says, "But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world." Not that the Gods created a new race or we arrived from somewhere else. It really puzzles(sp) me that the lore is so shady about the origins of humanity.
I do think they were created by another pantheon since it is never mentioned that the Gods created them( this usually is in reference to the current pantheon). But I dont think they came from the rift, since it is noted that they were "birthed" in Tyria.

This was posted in another thread:


They belonged to a most effulgent mage from an exceptionnaly advanced civilization. He was able to traverse through multiple planes of existence, some of wich predate the one you currently call your native soil.

Proof that mankind is not native to Tyria? Ah.. the complications.

NeferJackal
07-01-2007, 14:22
Civilization could easily just imply another country or society. Like the Elonian civilization, or the Canthan Civilization.

In the Civilization game series, the different nations you can choose between are refered to as civilizations.

teh Monkeys
07-01-2007, 15:10
Read the quote again.

He was able to traverse through multiple planes of existence, some of wich predate the one you currently call your native soil.

What Bahltek is implying, is that mankind was originally from another plane of existence.

Quintus Antonius
07-01-2007, 17:51
Yup, this might help to explain the discrepency between the appearence of humans on all three continents and the story of their "birthing". I think the word "birthing" is interesting, because it suggests a pushing into this world from somewhere else, perhaps painfully.

teh Monkeys
07-01-2007, 18:01
Something occured to me, though.

He was able to traverse through multiple planes of existence, some of wich predate the one you currently call your native soil.

You refers to.. well, you; your hero, not all of mankind. We call Tyria our native soil because we currently live there. When our life ends on this plane of existence, we enter another one. It could be reference to heaven or the afterlife.


Yup, this might help to explain the discrepency between the appearence of humans on all three continents and the story of their "birthing". I think the word "birthing" is interesting, because it suggests a pushing into this world from somewhere else, perhaps painfully.

But then why don't the other manuscripts speak of humans being birthed upon the world? They simply say humans appeared. And why is there such a large gap inbetween the arrival of humans on Cantha and the rest of the world?

Zaa Nayazu
07-01-2007, 18:27
I think Prophecies is the only one that mentions the word "Birthed". The other manuals actually dont even speak of the origins of their civilization exept a small mention of it in their timeline, wich Cantha is the most interesting one. It doesnt say birthed or appear, it just says they settled the northern cost of Cantha. Could it immply that they are much older than we think?

NeferJackal
07-01-2007, 18:33
Didnt the Forgotten arrive in Tyria from the Rift? So who is not to say that the same happened for humans?

teh Monkeys
07-01-2007, 19:05
The forgotten are specificly mentioned as being summoned by the gods, in order to create balance and so forth. The humans just *appear* out of nowhere and start to cause trouble the moment they arrive.

The humans are the serpent's antithesis.

But yes, I agree. It is possible and very plausible that mankind was not created on Tyria, but also traveled trough the rift. Whether they had help or not is up to debate.

Amanda Creamwave
22-12-2007, 00:24
first, monkeys i love you, you got interesting topics:laugh:

maybe the 'gods' dont even exist and it are just those 5 avatars and abaddon was the only real god

(sidenote: i hope lyssa is alsoa real god, she is cute:kiss: )

Abaddon is the only 'god' we see, the other 'gods' dont even help.

i also think the mursaat are the spirits that ripped apart odran with a spiritual agonising touch, and got banished out of the mists for some reason.

maybe freaky grenth has something to do with it, the faces on the ring of fire look the same as his face on the his statues

seems that abddon gave magic wich actually ripped apart mankind as he ordered the charr 'through the titans' to attack the humans, seems Abaddon hated humans.

and whats with those dryder's apearing in every 'god' releated area.

and why do avatar's of grenth look the same as smoke phantoms

maybe Dhuum doesnt exist and its all just freaky Grenth and gives his minnions to the lich.

they say the volcano is possessed by eveil and lava became evil faces, THAT LOOK LIKE GRENTH.

grenth really is freaky

Gmr Leon
22-12-2007, 02:00
first, monkeys i love you, you got interesting topics:laugh:

maybe the 'gods' dont even exist and it are just those 5 avatars and abaddon was the only real god

(sidenote: i hope lyssa is alsoa real god, she is cute:kiss: )

Abaddon is the only 'god' we see, the other 'gods' dont even help.

i also think the mursaat are the spirits that ripped apart odran with a spiritual agonising touch, and got banished out of the mists for some reason.

maybe freaky grenth has something to do with it, the faces on the ring of fire look the same as his face on the his statues

seems that abddon gave magic wich actually ripped apart mankind as he ordered the charr 'through the titans' to attack the humans, seems Abaddon hated humans.

and whats with those dryder's apearing in every 'god' releated area.

and why do avatar's of grenth look the same as smoke phantoms

maybe Dhuum doesnt exist and its all just freaky Grenth and gives his minnions to the lich.

they say the volcano is possessed by eveil and lava became evil faces, THAT LOOK LIKE GRENTH.

grenth really is freaky

...For one, I highly doubt that Mursaat were the spirits that ripped apart Lord Odran as he was in the Hall of Heroes if I remember correctly. Also, I doubt that Grenth has any real relationship with the Ring of Fire Islands Chain either.

Really, the rest of your post just seems like random thoughts on various areas of the lore that are rather baseless, to say the least. No offense directly intended, but some of those thoughts are a tad absurd.

Did you have sugar before posting? :grin:

Amanda Creamwave
23-12-2007, 13:03
ill explain why, first i dont know for sure when Abaddon's Mouth erupted(spitting out the bloodstones), the history tells it erupted after 100 years of piece, but it also says that the guild wars started after it erupted.

i think it erupted around 1010-1013 AE, making Lord Odran an ascalonean, asking for piece for his homeland Ascalon vs the Charr, suspecting the tower in wizard's folly from him, i expect him to be in possecion of the staff of the mists(can change fabric of time and space), also because the keeper of that staff in nightfall seems to wear ascalon clothing, we also see ascalon's in dragon's lair, close to 1 of his portals in the tomb of primeval kings.
he found the mursaat inside the Mists as angels, but eventually was thorn apart by angry soul's, and the event that later banished/left willingly the 'angels/souls/mursaat' was the eruption of Abaddon's Mouth around 150 years later,maybe because of a war with the titanic spirits from the foundry that escaped the realm of torment through the tear in the mists caused by the eruption, this explains there grudge with the titans, there superior knowledge of the spirit realm, there use of Odran's gates, being called angels by dark oak at first.

i dont know what Grenth's link is with the ring of fire either, just telling that those faces there look the same as his face on his statue.

Gmr Leon
23-12-2007, 16:09
While that does explain it to a degree; we have to realize that the Manuscripts and even NPCs have minor inaccuracies when it comes to the timeline. I think one of those inaccuracies comes with the eruption of the Bloodstones because we know when they were made, but we also know that there couldn't have been a century of peace before the eruption since afterwards the Guild Wars begin.

Also, Lord Odran being Ascalonian or, heck, even Mursaat is going a bit far considering he's pretty shrouded in mystery. Especially when you add in the bit about him possessing the Staff of the Mists when we know for certain that was in Elona and you're assuming he was Ascalonian. Plus making that assumption simply from the Ascalonian corpses in the Dragon's Lair is probably a bad idea.

Mainly due to the fact that there is nothing to indicate that they have to do with the lore and that they seem to be something random thrown in there.

I also think you're pushing it a bit with the Mursaat too, but since I'm not at the computer I'm usually on I don't have the Manuscripts sitting right next to me to get the exact lines stating that they were heroes.

Edit: Alright.


The spirits who had given their lives to earn access to the hallowed afterlife were outraged. They turned their fury upon the intruder, attacking Lord Odran with all of their legendary, collective might.

So it seems to me highly unlikely that they are, in fact Mursaat. I didn't note it there, but it's probably common knowledge that Odran accessed the Rift. Basically the nexus point of the Mists which contains the Hall of Heroes. What spirits are in the Hall of Heroes? Heroes' spirits.

Then again if there are Mursaat heroes in there, that's another story.

Amanda Creamwave
25-12-2007, 14:43
it was quintus idea to call Odran a mursaat, personnaly i dont think so he was, but ill keep it in mind, when i search the game for clues.

i also think the volcano erupted just before the guild wars, at 1013 AE

i think Lord Odran, a powerfull arcanist who specialised in the study of temporal distortions, he is being called wizard lord also. i think he was ascalon because of:

Wizard's Folly
academy of arcane arts in ascalon
staff of the mists(allows bending fabric of reality), we do not know who buried it or when, but its guardian wears ascalon clothing, not elonean.

may mean notthing, but makes me think Odran was from Ascalon.

i want to take some screenshots of the Hall of Heroes, and other maps from that region to see if i can find similarities with mursaat. it has some lorebased background, likely wrong. that what its good about discussing, showing a theory to others, others are better in finding the flaws in a theory.

Karuro
25-12-2007, 15:22
it was quintus idea to call Odran a mursaat, personnaly i dont think so he was, but ill keep it in mind, when i search the game for clues.

i also think the volcano erupted just before the guild wars, at 1013 AE

i think Lord Odran, a powerfull arcanist who specialised in the study of temporal distortions, he is being called wizard lord also. i think he was ascalon because of:

Wizard's Folly
academy of arcane arts in ascalon
staff of the mists(allows bending fabric of reality), we do not know who buried it or when, but its guardian wears ascalon clothing, not elonean.

may mean notthing, but makes me think Odran was from Ascalon.

i want to take some screenshots of the Hall of Heroes, and other maps from that region to see if i can find similarities with mursaat. it has some lorebased background, likely wrong. that what its good about discussing, showing a theory to others, others are better in finding the flaws in a theory.
We can't take the appearance of the Desolation ghosts as lore. As a lot of them have the Ascalon spirit skin.
Been to the HoH a few times in Tombs. Not any Mursaatish things that caught my eye. Only the Dwayna-ish statue's.

My personal opinion was that he lived in the castle at Kessex' Peak. That thing is way too shrouded in mystery. Even Galrath betrayed his own guild and sought the mysterious power hidden inside of it.
The Wizards Tower in Ascalon is odd as well. Having that Tower Golem walking around with modified Enchanted armor, which is speculated to be Mursaats. But it seems to have been blown up or flown away. We can't access it either way in Post-Searing.
Then again, we could all be wrong. There isn't enough material to really work with Odran's story. Just that he was a powerful Mage Lord who made a rift into the Mists and found his demise there. For all we know, maybe he was a Tengu.

La Jaffa
19-01-2008, 10:45
A Tengu?
I Dont thinks so...

But Abbadons mouth can it be that Grenth maked the door of komalie to keep the Titans out of the world they ''created'' because they failed .. and the mursaat where Made to gaurd the Gate, but they saw that the world evolved and that the humans sailed to distant lands for exploration they had the same idea, there are Mursaat Boats made of that jade armor stuff...
they set sail for Kryta and founded a Kapital in that river in the maguuma where you hear the old boat dude tell about a cloak over this river
''a Secret''

La Jaffa
19-01-2008, 12:04
In 1769 BE, the first civilised race arrived on Tyrian soil. They were the Forgotten, a race of serpents created by an older pantheon, and summoned from an older world, across the Mists by the new gods to protect the races of the world while the gods morphed the planet to their liking. Tyria was the first world created by the gods, and after the event known as the Exodus, they would go on to create more
Sorry for the duble post i found this on Guildwiki ...
It tells of an older panteon thing .., and the New GODS

Gmr Leon
19-01-2008, 22:27
In 1769 BE, the first civilised race arrived on Tyrian soil. They were the Forgotten, a race of serpents created by an older pantheon, and summoned from an older world, across the Mists by the new gods to protect the races of the world while the gods morphed the planet to their liking. Tyria was the first world created by the gods, and after the event known as the Exodus, they would go on to create more
Sorry for the duble post i found this on Guildwiki ...
It tells of an older panteon thing .., and the New GODS

That is almost certainly speculation gone rampant..Hold on a moment and I'll confirm whether it is or not.

Edit: Well, it's not in my Manuscripts. Not in Guildwiki. Not in the Official Wiki. Not in the GWO wiki. It's not in the PDF version of the Prophecies Manuscripts either.

Where on Tyria did you find that information? :huh:

La Jaffa
20-01-2008, 10:22
I Cant find it back but i Copied from an article on Guildwiki .....
Im searching n my History but cant find it any more

EDIT: i foudn something els when i was looking for it ..
An margonite said this:
Apostate

"Thank you for protecting me. And for your help, I shall now fulfill my end of the bargain.
You may have wondered why I was being chased so vehemently by Abaddon's hunters, and I believe it is as simple as this: I do not believe Abaddon to be an eternal god. There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he may be supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.
Use this knowledge for your benefit."

EDIT EDIT: I Found it on Guildwiki: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_%28world%29

Gmr Leon
20-01-2008, 16:06
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying there wasn't an older pantheon before the current one. I was simply pointing out that it's speculation to say the Forgotten were brought upon Tyria by an older pantheon.

I think the reason behind saying that is simply because in the Manuscripts it says the Old Gods. Someone mistook that though, as the current pantheon is often referred to as the Old Gods.

Thanks for digging up that source though, La Jaffa.

La Jaffa
20-01-2008, 16:08
I Know, But why did they say new gods ...

I Found this on the same page On wiki:
War simultaneously broke out all over Tyria. While the humans fought the Charr for dominance in the mortal realm, the gods battled Abaddon, in a secret war that would be lost to history for over a thousand years. Abaddon defeated two of the gods, but the combined might of the remaining five - Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Grenth and Lyssa - brought Abaddon down. The final blow against Abaddon was struck at the Mouth of Torment, a cataclysmic strike so powerful that it turned the Crystal Sea into an arid wasteland, uniting Tyria and Elona into one supercontinent. The Crystal Desert and the Desolation were born that day. Abaddon was imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, literally chained to a fate of eternal anguish, pain, fear, and madness. The year was 1 AE, and it was this year that the gods would finally leave Tyria forever.

Gmr Leon
20-01-2008, 16:13
I Know, But why did they say new gods ...

In the Manuscripts or..?

La Jaffa
20-01-2008, 16:17
In the Manuscripts or..?

In that part of wiki...

Gmr Leon
20-01-2008, 16:49
Sorry, was on the temp computer beforehand so I didn't take the time to read it all. Now though I'll take the time to do so. That little area you extracted doesn't say anything of new Gods though..Ah well. To reading I suppose.

Edit: And this is why reading is wonderful. Just found the spot where it mentions the new Gods. It's still in the speculation area though..As we really don't know who/what created the Forgotten.

I need to finish reading this and see if this was posted by the guys at Anet though. I may be calling it speculation and it just happens to be a more complete history posted by one of the Anet writers.:shocked:

Amanda Creamwave
06-02-2008, 10:46
its known that abaddon surplanted another unnamed earlier god, we dont know if the other 5 did as wel, exept for maybe grenth, but Dhuum's current status seems it was different than what abaddon did.

To this date i still try to find connections between Abaddon and Grenth, i find it something fishy going on between them.

FourthVariety
06-02-2008, 21:43
Dhuum and Grenth were competitors for the same spot
Menzies and Balthazar are still competitors for the same spot
Lyssa is supposed to be a twin goddess whatever that means (two-in-one goddess?)

Melandru and Dwayna were uncontested in ancient times as far as we know. If they too had competitors then they are the likely candidates for the two gods which Abaddon supposedly killed (we really need info if this wiki-lore is sanctioned by Anet). Melandru and Dwayna would then be the gods who took the place of the ones that Abaddon defeated. Maybe it was them who then started to forge an alliance. Abaddon either never had competition or his competition was Kormir and she was merely late for the party. Lately there has also been referencing to an old Spider God, he too might have been Abaddon's ancient counterpart.

One thing is for certain though, the gods are little more than very powerful beings. Another thing is also certain. Once created, conscious "souls" cannot be destroyed that easy. If killed on the planet Tyria, they move to the underworld. The "gods" even created the torment as a quarantine zone for souls befallen by a specific contagion. This might be to stop the corruption from spreading in the "afterlife". Souls without bodies can even move back to the real world or move between the different types of afterlife. My guess is that none of these "killed gods" is actually totally dead.

Gmr Leon
06-02-2008, 23:06
FourthVariety, let's try to keep speculation on the Spider God to a minimum for now as it really doesn't count as official lore. It could easily be any number of things meant for another story that was scrapped by Anet.

As to the two Gods defeated by Abaddon being the predecessors of Melandru and Dwayna. It seems unlikely, the Margonite War was waged sometime between 1 BE and 0 and that was the time when the two Gods were defeated. This being the case, we can look back on the years of the scriptures of the Gods and determine that, hey, they were in power before the war began.

Well, Gods, or gathering followers. We really need to do some research into that area of information..

Hinoki
07-02-2008, 08:06
Time to veer off in another direction, WEE!

I'm going with the "world withn a world" theory: that the gods aren't gods at all, but just a bunch of kids that were given an Ant Farm ala "Create/Rule Your Own World" game. And each kid fights over what they control and there parents/game rules dictate what they can or cannot do.

=D

teh Monkeys
07-11-2009, 20:38
After reading up on some threads here, I wrote up some stuff.



III. Dawn of time.

Gods are lying sons of whores. Sometimes daughters. Let's take a look at a timeline.

Dawyna, first appearance to Tyrian man: 115 BE
Grenth, Melandru, Balthazar, first appearance to Tyrian man: 48 BE
Lyssa, first appearance to Tyrian man: 45 BE
Abbadon, first appearance to Tyrian man: 1 BE
Kormir, first appearance to Tyrian man: 1075 AE

First appearance of man:
Cantha: 768 BE
Tyria: 205 BE
Elona: 205 BE

First concrete date of gods on Tyria: 1769 BE (the arrival of the forgotten.)

Last sign of Giganticus Lupicus--the great giants or true giants--on Tyrian continent (best guess): 10.000 BE


[...]The cycle of their awakening reaches back to the time of the giganticus lupicus, and even further, back into prehistory.[...]

As you can see there several problems with this timeline, and what the manuscripts and ingame sources tell us.

Let's start with the most glaring contradiction. The world existed before the old gods, not specified who these gods are, but they arrive on Tyria and "create" it, as Kenan the Scribe puts it. He says this is the first world the old gods have ever created.

Problem. Giganticus Lupicus already existed (or rather, ceased to exist) atleast some 8.000 years before the old gods started their very first divine construction project. Even bigger problem. The dragons lived on Tyria before Giganticus Lupicus did. What does this mean? It means Tyria is over 10.000 years old, while we do not have actual proof of gods interfering with it until around 1800 BC.

Then ofcourse there is the question of where did the dragons go, and when did the gods come in. Why did the dragons go into hibernation? Were they defeated by gods? There is 8.000 years of historical black void, inbetween somewhere around 10.000 BE and around 1769 BE, in which gods arrive and create Tyria as it is today.

This 8.000 year gap is the most interesting part of Tyrian history. What happened here? Did gods fight dragons and force them into hybernation? Did the dragons simply go into hybernation by their own choice? If the latter is the case, then gods simply found a desolate Tyria and turned it into what they wanted. If gods did battle with the dragons, I propose the year 10.000 BE as the most likely time for a clash between the gods and the dragons, because of the extinction of Giganticus Lupicus. (either triggered by the clash of gods and dragons, or by the way the world was changed by the gods)

Now then, you may be wondering why I keep sayings gods, rather than the gods. This is because if I were to say the gods, it would mean that the gods who created Tyria are the same gods who hold the title of immortal in present day Tyria. It is simply impossible to know if this is the case. As I have stated in the start of this thread, an immortal is far from immortal. Hell, as far as we know, it might aswell have been Menzies' and Balthazar's father along with Dhuum and Abbadon's predecessor who created Tyria. We simply do not know. All we have is the date when the forgotten were called here by the immortals, it doesn't say who the hell these immortals are, and we have those god statues with origin stories that give a timeline of sorts explaining when the current gods revealed themselves to mankind.

What's interesting is that the gods showed themselves so late to mankind. Dwayna was relatively early, in 115 BE, but still very late if you take into consideration that mankind had already been in Cantha for almost 600 years, and in Elona and Tyria for almost a century. I am unsure why Dwayna chose to reveal herself half a century before the other gods. But then again, we have to wonder, was she really early? What if she was simply late? What if 115 BE was the year she became a godess? As her scripture clearly shows, she showed herself to mankind with the intent of getting followers, to let mankind know she was a godess they had to pray to.

All the other gods did this too. Interestingly enough, all in 48 BE and 45 BE, all seeking or creating human supporters. All showing themselves to mankind. We are your gods now, worship us, for we like it when your tiny mortal souls do battle in our glorious names.

Abbadon does not seek out or create followers or minions of sorts until 1 BE. And because Abbadon was banished, mankind no longer knows about Abbadon. No longer a god, no longer any fancy statues scattered across Tyria to spread word of your awesomeness. The same happened to Dhuum. Nobody knows who he is, save for a select few who are either under command of the gods or scholars of sorts.

Who is to say not more gods vanished and were replaced in this manner? The fact that four gods decided to declare they were now gods in a span of 4 years, three of which in a single year, just screams hostile take-over. Grenth shows himself to mankind in 48 BE, if this is the year that he actually became a god, then this is also the year that Dhuum was locked away.

There could be another reason, ofcourse. The other gods could just have been gathering followers because they were wary of Menzies and Dhuum, and maybe of Abbadon. Because these scriptures do not state that the gods actually became gods on the same dates as displayed on the statues. It all comes down to how you interpret these scriptures. Why did the gods reveal themselves? There are, as far as I can see, two reasons. First, as I said, they needed followers for one reason or another (but they're gods, so they should be able to take care of their own problems, but then again, Balthazar and Grenth rely on human heroes to solve the majority of their problems). The second reason is, as I said, to show to mankind that they had ascended to immortals.


What I find very strange is that the current immortals are human gods, only worshipped by humans. Mursaat don't care, Charr don't care, those furries from the northern shiverpeaks don't care. All races, except for those midget things that should never have been put into GW, at the very least acknowledge that the gods exist, but they do not worship, and the gods simply don't give a rat's *** about these creatures. The gods only revealed themselves to mankind, they didn't bother to introduce themselves to the centaurs or anyone else. This is proven by the whole Abbadon-decides-to-be-a-dick-and-give-everyone-magic affair.

See the thing is this. The gods let mankind ruin the entire world, conquer it for themselves, and all the forest critters died and everyone was all very sad, as I'm sure you can imagine. Except for the gods. Now you can think they didn't give a toss what the lowly mortals were doing, but as soon as mankind starts to die and lose because of Abbadon's magic rape-o-rama, they care. They go out of their way to save mankind. Not to bring balance to the world or any hippy crap like that. No, they saved their babies. Man.

Again, more to substantiate the fact that the gods are the gods of mankind: Grenth is the god of the underworld, the place where human souls go after death, if not to the hall of heroes. What is interesting to note is that there are only human souls from Tyria in the underworld. This could mean two things. First, humans are native to Tyria only, because there are only Tyrian humans in the underworld. Second, humans are not native to just Tyria, and every world like Tyria has its own shadow realm/dimension for the deceased, seperate from the other worlds. I can't even begin to imagine the administrative problems of having hundreds if not thousands of underworlds seperate from eachother for every world, but I digress.

Consider this. What if mankind not only took over Tyria, what if they took over immortality, the gods themselves? Effectively changing the role of the immortals of custodians and creators of Tyria, for all races, into gods of man.


Derp. I was bored, and I don't even want to know how many times I contradicted myself.

Konig Des Todes
09-11-2009, 05:48
Dawyna, first appearance to Tyrian man: 115 BE
Grenth, Melandru, Balthazar, first appearance to Tyrian man: 48 BE
Lyssa, first appearance to Tyrian man: 45 BE
Abbadon, first appearance to Tyrian man: 1 BE
Kormir, first appearance to Tyrian man: 1075 AE

First appearance of man:
Cantha: 768 BE
Tyria: 205 BE
Elona: 205 BE

First concrete date of gods on Tyria: 1769 BE (the arrival of the forgotten.)

Last sign of Giganticus Lupicus--the great giants or true giants--on Tyrian continent (best guess): 10.000 BE

As you can see there several problems with this timeline, and what the manuscripts and ingame sources tell us.

Let's start with the most glaring contradiction. The world existed before the old gods, not specified who these gods are, but they arrive on Tyria and "create" it, as Kenan the Scribe puts it. He says this is the first world the old gods have ever created.

Problem. Giganticus Lupicus already existed (or rather, ceased to exist) atleast some 8.000 years before the old gods started their very first divine construction project. Even bigger problem. The dragons lived on Tyria before Giganticus Lupicus did. What does this mean? It means Tyria is over 10.000 years old, while we do not have actual proof of gods interfering with it until around 1800 BC.I would like to note that in a recent interview (all recent interviews with lore can be found here (http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/lore-information-from-interview-with-t832.html)), Jeff Grubb states something on the gods and the origin of humanity:


The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha. The idea of human gods “creating” Tyria is viewed by other races with mixed reactions. The charr think of it as theological propaganda (and that the human gods are not true gods, only more powerful, once-mortal, beings). The asura are perfectly willing to accept the idea of gods as (rather large) gears in the Eternal Alchemy. Norn are perfectly willing to allow the idea of gods, but think of them as a different type of their own animal spirits. The sylvari consider them unproven, since the gods have not shown their presence directly to the sylvari.

The Dragons, as we said, have always been here. The gods predate the humans, but not by much. Much of what we know about Glint comes from Glint herself. The truth of the matter may be very different, and she has her own reasons for saying what she has said.It should be noted, we don't know how old humanity is - and if Jeff meant humanity's existence, or humanity in Tyria.

So there may be more history than we know that happened down south than what was recorded for those who traveled up north.


As I have stated in the start of this thread, an immortal is far from immortal.In my opinion, immortal is a very crude term for anything. Even in ancient Greece, the gods were "immortal" but killable. Same goes to Norse and whatnot.

When people hear the word "immortal" - they think unkillable. But truth is, the word is more often used for "not aging and extremely hard to kill". In this case, the gods are immortal.


What's interesting is that the gods showed themselves so late to mankind.Actually, this is not quite true. This is the first recording of an event where the gods answered prayers and/or chose their "chosen" followers (i.e., granted magic to the first known set of people to have magic).

While possible the gods didn't answer pleads to them (only one event which wasn't a plead was Lyssa's scripture).

We also don't know if the dates are of occurrence, or when the event was written down.


The same happened to Dhuum. Nobody knows who he is, save for a select few who are either under command of the gods or scholars of sorts.Ah, no one in Tyria knows of Dhuum. But tell me, was Dhuum even during humanity? ;)

Personally, I don't think so - and I say the same about Abaddon's predecessor. Personally, I think there was a whole other pantheon - perhaps an insectoid pantheon (as discussed here (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?p=5582208)) - that existed before these gods we know (excluding Dhuum, including Abaddon) that "predate humanity, but not by much"

And in fact, we can easily say Dwayna, Lyssa, and Abaddon - at least - were known before the dates of the scriptures.

Dwayna and Abaddon were prayed to in their scriptures - thus known before hand. When Lyssa showed who she was (physical appearance was all, it seems), people begged for mercy. As shown in Melandru's scriptures, magic was known at that time, so simply being a magician wouldn't have caused a whole town to beg on their knees.

In short, the most heretic that can be done, at least to those three, is that the events described are similar to "Rise of the White Mantle" in the BMP - the first time others but the "gods' prophet" had seen them.


...those furries from the northern shiverpeaks don't care.Though the Norn do not "care" for the "human gods" - their spirits, whom they do not worship, but instead respect, have uncannily similarities to the six gods. The primary similarity would be the Raven Spirit - who is connected in many ways to Grenth. Those similarities being ruling the "Spirit Realm" (aka Underworld - or a portion of the "Spirit Realm" being the Forgotten Vale), and statues of Grenth in a cold underground location right outside the Raven Shrine.


All races, except for those midget things that should never have been put into GW, at the very least acknowledge that the gods exist, but they do not worship...Technically, all the races acknowledge the six gods. As shown in the quote by Jeff above, the Norn do view them as gods, but different from their spirits - the Asura view them as large aspects of life - the Charr view them as very powerful mortals. Also, you forgot the Dwarves, which more than once bring up both Dwayna and Grenth. Whether it be THK, Ural, or Wintersday. Also, you seem to forget that there is at least one Centaur and one Naga - along with the whole Forgotten race - who follow the gods in one way or another.


Grenth is the god of the underworld, the place where human souls go after death, if not to the hall of heroes. What is interesting to note is that there are only human souls from Tyria in the underworld. This could mean two things. First, humans are native to Tyria only, because there are only Tyrian humans in the underworld. Second, humans are not native to just Tyria, and every world like Tyria has its own shadow realm/dimension for the deceased, seperate from the other worlds. I can't even begin to imagine the administrative problems of having hundreds if not thousands of underworlds seperate from eachother for every world, but I digress.I would like to bring up a third possibility: We don't see spirits of other races (unless they are the "formless" spirits seen in the River of Spirits and other locations). And a fourth possibility: We don't go to all of the Underworld, all of the Realms of the Gods, or all of the Rift.

Do note, that the Tengu and Dwarves have their own "afterlife" - at least in name (Sky Above the Sky and Great Forge respectively) - so it may be that their spirits have their own little tucked away afterlife realm. Also to note, the Norn seem to have the same afterlife as the humans - to a degree, in the least. They call at least the Underworld (at most, the whole afterlife) the "Spirit Realm" (while calling Tyria the "Mortal Realm") - as said by Lefsi (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lefsi_Spiritchaser) - and the Hall of Heroes is known as the "Hall of Spirits" - as said by Jora (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jora). Though the Hall of Heroes=Hall of Spirits thing may be off, as Jora describes the Hall of Spirits simply as "where the brave live forever."

Besides, I got a nagging feeling you forgot our good ol' con artist friend (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Forgemaster). And Ural (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ural_Highstone) who seems (note: we cannot be certain) to go to Dwayna's Realm during Attack on Jalis's Camp (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_on_Jalis's_Camp#Intermediate_dialogue) (which I believe to be the barely mentioned Eternal Paradise (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Paradise)).

teh Monkeys
09-11-2009, 16:22
You raise some fair points, and much obliged for pointing out that interview. That clears some things up for me.


It should be noted, we don't know how old humanity is - and if Jeff meant humanity's existence, or humanity in Tyria.

So there may be more history than we know that happened down south than what was recorded for those who traveled up north.

The first involvement of the old gods in Tyria, or rather the first date we have of them doing anything, is 1769 BE when they call the forgotten here. Now whether or not the gods actually created anything on Tyria as the humans claim, is irrelevant. We have this date of active gods on Tyria, some thousand years before the arrival of man on Cantha. But Jeff Grubb states that man is predated by the gods, but not my much. How much time that is unclear, but I doubt it is more than a couple of centuries. Which would mean that, taking into account the date set in stone for the first actions of the gods on Tyria, mankind could have been around on Tyria (the planet) as early as 1500 BE.

What's also very interesting about Grubb's statement about the current gods predating mankind "not by much", is that this could either once and for all confirm that all the current gods have not been gods for more than a couple of millenia (again, the interpretation of not by much is open for debate, but I doubt it's more than a couple of centuries or more than a millenium), or the gods only arrived on Tyria a short while before mankind was created or born.


In my opinion, immortal is a very crude term for anything. Even in ancient Greece, the gods were "immortal" but killable. Same goes to Norse and whatnot.

When people hear the word "immortal" - they think unkillable. But truth is, the word is more often used for "not aging and extremely hard to kill". In this case, the gods are immortal.

I agree with this, as I've pointed out at the start of the thread. A god is basically nothing more than a deity who controls certain awesome powers from the mists. This is more or less stated in Kormir's scriptures. A god may be destroyed, but his power may not. It's some sort of cosmic balance.

This also leads to another question, though. Say you destroy a god, but you don't take his powers. What happens to those powers? Can another deity, like, say, Menzies just come along and grab those powers floating around?


Actually, this is not quite true. This is the first recording of an event where the gods answered prayers and/or chose their "chosen" followers (i.e., granted magic to the first known set of people to have magic).

While possible the gods didn't answer pleads to them (only one event which wasn't a plead was Lyssa's scripture).

We also don't know if the dates are of occurrence, or when the event was written down.

And in fact, we can easily say Dwayna, Lyssa, and Abaddon - at least - were known before the dates of the scriptures.

Dwayna and Abaddon were prayed to in their scriptures - thus known before hand. When Lyssa showed who she was (physical appearance was all, it seems), people begged for mercy. As shown in Melandru's scriptures, magic was known at that time, so simply being a magician wouldn't have caused a whole town to beg on their knees.

Again you raise some good points, and I was too premature in assuming the scriptures as fact.

However, it is not stated or implied that the people knew who Lyssa was, just that they saw a god in their midst and were awestruck and scared ****less because they just treated a godess like a hobo. Can't argue with you much about Dwayna and Abbadon though.

What's interesting to note is that in the scriptures of Grenth, Desmina called out for a god to help her kill some dudes, which again would imply that humans already atleast knew of the existence of gods, and that they could interact with them. It is never stated that they knew who the gods were though, because Desmina does not call out to Grenth specifically. (but then again, the Margonite guy does call out specifically to Abbadon.)

Also something very strange is in the scriptures of Melandru, there is talk of a tribe of godless humans. Which, again, implies that some humans already knew about the gods and some didn't or refused to live by their rules.


The validity of the scriptures can easily be called into question though.

Look at Melandru's text. It states, in 48 BE, magic was known to humans. Ewan says it is forbidden to use magic in his tribe. This would imply that humans were capable of using magic in 48 BE, eventhough we all know it was Abbadon who gave magic to all the races in Tyria in the year 1 BE.

Second, Dwayna's scriptures have a glaring hole in them in the form of king Doric. The scriptures date to 115 BE, when Doric was fighting a war, and he can be assumed to be atleast of adult age. However he's still around at the freaking exodus, which is, well, 115 years later. (ofcourse one can argue that Dwayna being the godess of life gave him a really long life.)

All of this aside, what if we just look at the scriptures for what they are. The gods taking an active stance in the affairs of humans. Ofcourse we have to take them with a grain of salt, because they are mostly myth, but they are the only sources we have on when the current gods started interacting with the mortals.
So rather than them being factual (too many glaring contradictions for my taste.), it is highly probable that my original idea was correct, that the scriptures are just the canonized textst handed down to the mortals to teach them about the gods.

However, I'm still puzzled as to why four scriptures suddenly appeared in the span of 3 or 4 years, while Dwayna publishes her fancy book in 115 BE.


Ah, no one in Tyria knows of Dhuum. But tell me, was Dhuum even during humanity? ;)

Personally, I don't think so - and I say the same about Abaddon's predecessor. Personally, I think there was a whole other pantheon - perhaps an insectoid pantheon (as discussed here (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?p=5582208)) - that existed before these gods we know (excluding Dhuum, including Abaddon) that "predate humanity, but not by much"

If Grubb is to be believed, and assuming the gods he mentions are the ones in the current pantheon (ie Grenth and not Dhuum), then yes, Dhuum would have been a god before mankind was born. And arguably the entire pantheon could have been made up of other gods. (Abbadon being the best proof of this, since he has two confirmed albeit unnamed predecessors, one very good candidate being non human in origin.)


Also, you forgot the Dwarves, which more than once bring up both Dwayna and Grenth. Whether it be THK, Ural, or Wintersday. Also, you seem to forget that there is at least one Centaur and one Naga - along with the whole Forgotten race - who follow the gods in one way or another.

This is a valid point. However the dwarves are very adamant about stating time and again that the great dwarf is their god. And never once does any dwarf place Dwayna or any of the other six above the great dwarf.

The forgotten strike me more as servants than as followers.


I would like to bring up a third possibility: We don't see spirits of other races (unless they are the "formless" spirits seen in the River of Spirits and other locations). And a fourth possibility: We don't go to all of the Underworld, all of the Realms of the Gods, or all of the Rift.

So you think the humans have their underworld, and say for example, centaurs have theirs?


Do note, that the Tengu and Dwarves have their own "afterlife" - at least in name (Sky Above the Sky and Great Forge respectively) - so it may be that their spirits have their own little tucked away afterlife realm. Also to note, the Norn seem to have the same afterlife as the humans - to a degree, in the least. They call at least the Underworld (at most, the whole afterlife) the "Spirit Realm" (while calling Tyria the "Mortal Realm") - as said by Lefsi (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lefsi_Spiritchaser) - and the Hall of Heroes is known as the "Hall of Spirits" - as said by Jora (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jora). Though the Hall of Heroes=Hall of Spirits thing may be off, as Jora describes the Hall of Spirits simply as "where the brave live forever."

I'm not fond of making statements about the dwarves, because I never played EotN and missed out on the whole great destroyer bit, and because we know so little about the dwarves. Was it ever confirmed what exactly the great dwarf is/was?


Besides, I got a nagging feeling you forgot our good ol' con artist friend (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Forgemaster). And Ural (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ural_Highstone) who seems (note: we cannot be certain) to go to Dwayna's Realm during Attack on Jalis's Camp (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_on_Jalis's_Camp#Intermediate_dialogue) (which I believe to be the barely mentioned Eternal Paradise (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Paradise)).

Oh tits you're right. Bloody forgemaster. But it could also be argued that since Balthazar is sometimes implied to be the god of forging, he specifically wanted the eternal forgemaster there in his realm. After all we don't actually see any other souls than humans besides the forgemaster IIRC.

Strange how the Eternal Paradise is only known in Cantha and nowhere else. Also strange how Dwayna of all people takes a soul. Isn't that Grenth or the Envoy's job?

Konig Des Todes
09-11-2009, 20:45
The first involvement of the old gods in Tyria, or rather the first date we have of them doing anything, is 1769 BE when they call the forgotten here. Now whether or not the gods actually created anything on Tyria as the humans claim, is irrelevant. We have this date of active gods on Tyria, some thousand years before the arrival of man on Cantha. But Jeff Grubb states that man is predated by the gods, but not my much. How much time that is unclear, but I doubt it is more than a couple of centuries. Which would mean that, taking into account the date set in stone for the first actions of the gods on Tyria, mankind could have been around on Tyria (the planet) as early as 1500 BE.

What's also very interesting about Grubb's statement about the current gods predating mankind "not by much", is that this could either once and for all confirm that all the current gods have not been gods for more than a couple of millenia (again, the interpretation of not by much is open for debate, but I doubt it's more than a couple of centuries or more than a millenium), or the gods only arrived on Tyria a short while before mankind was created or born.We need to know what context the "not by much" refers to - clearly it is a short time period, but is it a short time period for a human's lifespan? or is it for a god's lifespan? Perhaps a short time in the overall scheme of existence even?

Of those three - and there are more to be considered - not by much could range from months to tens of thousands of years.


This also leads to another question, though. Say you destroy a god, but you don't take his powers. What happens to those powers? Can another deity, like, say, Menzies just come along and grab those powers floating around?This seems to actually be the case with Grenth and Dhuum. As recently discovered in the new and now gone Halloween '09 quests - Dhuum was never killed, just overthrown and imprisoned and put into a state of dormancy in the Hall of Judgement. The question, though, is what was Grenth's state before imprisoning Dhuum.


However, it is not stated or implied that the people knew who Lyssa was, just that they saw a god in their midst and were awestruck and scared ****less because they just treated a godess like a hobo.How would you tell a god from some powerful mage unless you knew it was a god?


What's interesting to note is that in the scriptures of Grenth, Desmina called out for a god to help her kill some dudes, which again would imply that humans already atleast knew of the existence of gods, and that they could interact with them. It is never stated that they knew who the gods were though, because Desmina does not call out to Grenth specifically. (but then again, the Margonite guy does call out specifically to Abbadon.)It may be that she felt she was abandoned by all six gods at the time, and in essence just asked "which of you six will give me what I want? and if you six won't, are there more gods who will?"


Look at Melandru's text. It states, in 48 BE, magic was known to humans. Ewan says it is forbidden to use magic in his tribe. This would imply that humans were capable of using magic in 48 BE, eventhough we all know it was Abbadon who gave magic to all the races in Tyria in the year 1 BE.Not quite the case. As shown in the scriptures, the gods gave magic to individuals - they could have been doing this for ages. Ritualists existed and used magic (though a different "kind" of magic) before Abaddon gave magic to all the races as well, and by that time contact was established.


Second, Dwayna's scriptures have a glaring hole in them in the form of king Doric. The scriptures date to 115 BE, when Doric was fighting a war, and he can be assumed to be atleast of adult age. However he's still around at the freaking exodus, which is, well, 115 years later. (ofcourse one can argue that Dwayna being the godess of life gave him a really long life.)I figured it was two different wars, and he wasn't called King Doric - just Doric. And with being a monk himself (so one would presume at least), and with magic being unlimited - expanding one's life by 20 more years than Adelbern's age when he dies (he's the oldest known human aside from Doric) wouldn't be that hard, in my opinion.


However, I'm still puzzled as to why four scriptures suddenly appeared in the span of 3 or 4 years, while Dwayna publishes her fancy book in 115 BE.That is rather puzzling. It could be that it is just that portion of the scripture dated at that time.

If I was a religiously devout person, I wouldn't make a scripture the size of a piece of paper - instead, I'd have (at least) all of the scriptures of these six gods go to the size of the Torah, or the New Testament. It could easily be that just these stories we read are dated at that time (again - is it the time of the event, or is it when that story was written?).


Abbadon being the best proof of this, since he has two confirmed albeit unnamed predecessors, one very good candidate being non human in origin.two unnamed predecessors? I only know of one.


This is a valid point. However the dwarves are very adamant about stating time and again that the great dwarf is their god. And never once does any dwarf place Dwayna or any of the other six above the great dwarf.

The forgotten strike me more as servants than as followers.Technically, Ural places Dwayna above all other gods. But he may be a singularity - like the Eternal Forgemaster. And being a servant is, more or less, being a follower. The Eternals would be both servants and followers - the Reapers are questionable since they allied with Grenth more so than serve him.


So you think the humans have their underworld, and say for example, centaurs have theirs?I wouldn't say underworld - just simply an afterlife, which could very easily mix with the gods' realms. For instance, I think that Dwayna's Realm is both the Eternal Paradise, and the Sky Above the Sky - but different portions of that one realm. And the Great Forge could easily be a different part of the Realm of War (a.k.a. the Fissure of Woe). Due to the centaur's belief in the Ancestor Tree, I'd put them in Melandru's Realm if the afterlives of the different races belong to the gods as well.


I'm not fond of making statements about the dwarves, because I never played EotN and missed out on the whole great destroyer bit, and because we know so little about the dwarves. Was it ever confirmed what exactly the great dwarf is/was?No, it wasn't confirmed what/who the Great Dwarf is/was. Personally, I think he is the predecessor of Balthazar. For a reason you bring up later: forging.


Oh tits you're right. Bloody forgemaster. But it could also be argued that since Balthazar is sometimes implied to be the god of forging, he specifically wanted the eternal forgemaster there in his realm. After all we don't actually see any other souls than humans besides the forgemaster IIRC.Being c[I][U][/UEternal][/I Forgemaster, I think he is an Eternal - thus a follower and servant of Balthazar - and wasn't brought into the Fissure of Woe just because he was a blacksmith. After all, there are plenty of human blacksmiths.


Strange how the Eternal Paradise is only known in Cantha and nowhere else. Also strange how Dwayna of all people takes a soul. Isn't that Grenth or the Envoy's job?It might not be known to just Canthans - but instead of being only stated in Cantha.

As for the soul part - I think that in very special cases, like Ural, Avatars of the Gods (since it wasn't Dwayna herself) will come and take souls to a specific spot - in a less special but still special case, the Envoys would come and move them instead (like Shiro's case).

Gmr Leon
09-11-2009, 23:10
Actually, this is not quite true. This is the first recording of an event where the gods answered prayers and/or chose their "chosen" followers (i.e., granted magic to the first known set of people to have magic).

Although that's technically your interpretation only. For example, I've never personally viewed any of the scriptures except perhaps Grenth's as providing any sort of power or magic to anyone. Balthazar's was more or less, "Have courage, and fight on!" Dwayna's was, "Oh dear, oh goodness, you poor creature, may you and your fellows be healed!" Lyssa's was, "Don't act on appearances alone, lest you be tricked!" Melandru's was, "Don't adversely affect the environment."


The primary similarity would be the Raven Spirit - who is connected in many ways to Grenth. Those similarities being ruling the "Spirit Realm" (aka Underworld - or a portion of the "Spirit Realm" being the Forgotten Vale), and statues of Grenth in a cold underground location right outside the Raven Shrine.

Although it is entirely possible that, despite these similarities, it is an entirely different, and separate, realm or plane. For instance, the Greek Underworld and the Christian Hell share some similarities, but they are not necessarily the same place. One has the River Styx which provides the border between the Underworld and Earth, whereas the other just tends to be burning and torture of souls only accessible after death.


Also, you seem to forget that there is at least one Centaur and one Naga - along with the whole Forgotten race - who follow the gods in one way or another.

However that is a bit on the skittish side, considering that in the case of the Naga that's based only on a name.


Also to note, the Norn seem to have the same afterlife as the humans - to a degree, in the least. They call at least the Underworld (at most, the whole afterlife) the "Spirit Realm" (while calling Tyria the "Mortal Realm") - as said by Lefsi (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lefsi_Spiritchaser) - and the Hall of Heroes is known as the "Hall of Spirits" - as said by Jora (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jora). Though the Hall of Heroes=Hall of Spirits thing may be off, as Jora describes the Hall of Spirits simply as "where the brave live forever."

Again though, not necessarily. The key word to emphasize in this case is seem, and it should also be noted that Lefsi never directly states that the two realms are the same. The main point that supports this, and I think would have been preferable to point out than so-and-so-NPC said, is the calling upon Gwen's mother's spirit from the realm. That, that is the main connection. What is interesting, though, is whether or not there's a significant difference in the appearance of the Underworld to them, should they enter into it, or if there's some strange layering going on where they're more or less the same, but they have their own version they reside in. Or of course there's the different portion idea you have.


This also leads to another question, though. Say you destroy a god, but you don't take his powers. What happens to those powers? Can another deity, like, say, Menzies just come along and grab those powers floating around?

Well, the first major point to make would be that Menzies isn't a deity, as far as we know, which may play a large role in the entire power exchange process.


How would you tell a god from some powerful mage unless you knew it was a god?

How would you tell a powerful mage from a god unless you knew what refined magic was? If the humans were just starting out, they could easily have known of magic, but it may have been primitive, less refined magic, whereas that which the Gods used was, or at least appeared to be, more refined, more practiced magic.


Not quite the case. As shown in the scriptures, the gods gave magic to individuals - they could have been doing this for ages.

But again, this is just your interpretation of the Scriptures.


Appeared then the god, and with bony hands outstretched, welcomed the girl into His fold. Saith he, "I am your god. Follow where I lead, come whence I call, and the rotted corpses of the dead will be yours to control." And swearing allegiance in life and beyond, did Desmina thence become the god's first follower.

This does suggest the provision of magic.


"For I am your goddess, and I will give blessings to all who follow these teachings."

Not a particular individual, but all, in this case.


Then saith He, "Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity."

And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the god into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.

Yeah..In this case it's just difficult in general to say magic was given, consider Warriors' skills. All this really states is that he encouraged them to fight..fiercely, or whatever. No provision of magic in this scenario.


"True beauty is measured not by appearance but by actions and deeds. Many have eyes, but few have seen. Of all here, you saw the beauty behind the illusion. And you alone shall be blessed with My gifts."

Now, this case is very supportive of what you're suggesting, given the words in bold. That makes at least two of the five in your favor.


And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't consider that to be a provision of magic so much as binding in servitude.


And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.

And of course we have this, which is the only truly direct statement of, "This deity gave magic to this individual." All the others say gifts or control, as seen in the cases of Grenth and Lyssa.


Two unnamed predecessors? I only know of one.

I think it may be how Teh Monkeys is interpreting this line from the Apostate's dialogue:


There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here. And I believe that while the power he uses cannot be destroyed, he may be supplanted, as he supplanted his predecessor.


And being a servant is, more or less, being a follower.

Not always though, of course. A slave can act as a servant without ever being a follower.

Konig Des Todes
10-11-2009, 00:23
Although that's technically your interpretation only. For example, I've never personally viewed any of the scriptures except perhaps Grenth's as providing any sort of power or magic to anyone. Balthazar's was more or less, "Have courage, and fight on!" Dwayna's was, "Oh dear, oh goodness, you poor creature, may you and your fellows be healed!" Lyssa's was, "Don't act on appearances alone, lest you be tricked!" Melandru's was, "Don't adversely affect the environment."Abaddon's scripture appears to be the case of the first transformed Margonite - thus in a way giving magic. Same for Melandru. They made their "chosen" - and I did say answering prayers (i.e., Dwayna and Balthazar).

Lyssa is a tricky one on whether it was just teaching a lesson, or having Sara become one of her chosen.


Although it is entirely possible that, despite these similarities, it is an entirely different, and separate, realm or plane. For instance, the Greek Underworld and the Christian Hell share some similarities, but they are not necessarily the same place. One has the River Styx which provides the border between the Underworld and Earth, whereas the other just tends to be burning and torture of souls only accessible after death.Sarah - Gwen's mother - is in the Underworld though, and all the monsters are only found in Underworld. Though the second doesn't confirm it, the first rather does. The quest seems to say "Sarah has moved to the Forgotten Vale."


However that is a bit on the skittish side, considering that in the case of the Naga that's based only on a name.Main reason why I said "one way or another" - one way being an actual follower, the other being linked to a god.


The main point that supports this, and I think would have been preferable to point out than so-and-so-NPC said, is the calling upon Gwen's mother's spirit from the realm.Well, with Lefsi, I was just bringing up what Lefsi called the afterlife, instead of pointing out a connection. The quest on a whole - not just Sarah - is the connection.


Now, I don't know about you, but I don't consider that to be a provision of magic so much as binding in servitude.At the very least, it would be very much like Abaddon transforming the Margonites. If the situation is the same, then it would be giving them some magic.


Not always though, of course. A slave can act as a servant without ever being a follower.Well, I don't know about you, but none of them really seem to be slaves... After all, slaves are usually not wardens of prisoners, nor custodians of entire realms.

Konig Des Todes
11-11-2009, 07:00
Just realized something on my earlier comment of the Norn calling the Underworld the Spirit Realm. This isn't entirely true - that is, more than just the Norn call it such.

Call to the Spirit Realm (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Call_to_the_Spirit_Realm)

"Commune with the spirit realm and become Weh no Su, Closer to the Stars. This will restore the balance that exists in all of Cantha and allow you to communicate with the spirit realm where Shiro exists." (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Adept_Nai#dialogue)

Archemorous and Saint Viktor are summoned from the spirit realm. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial_Summoning)

"Kuonghsang was a wizened old sage who spent his days dispensing helpful advice and delivering messages to and from the spirit realm." (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuonghsang_(object))

"Ritualists summon spirits and objects to aid their allies. They can create powerful weapons and can manipulate the spirit realm to heal allies or harm foes." (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ritualist_Insignia#Initial_Dialogue)

There are more, but they are all canthan origin. It may be less that the Norn call the Underworld the Spirit Realm, and more of Lefsi being a Ritualist - as most references to the Spirit Realm have to do with Ritualists (and those that don't, deal with Kuonghsang, Shiro, or Weh no Su). Which makes me wonder exactly what the "Spirit Realm" refers to (much like the Mad Realm of King Thorn). But that is off topic for this thread - just wanted to point this out here - i.e., I am correcting myself on an earlier statement. :x

Gmr Leon
11-11-2009, 16:24
And that's why I contradict you on the "little" things. Never know what more there may be behind them.

BrettM
11-11-2009, 17:04
"Kuonghsang was a wizened old sage who spent his days dispensing helpful advice and delivering messages to and from the spirit realm." (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuonghsang_(object))

<snip>Which makes me wonder exactly what the "Spirit Realm" refers to (much like the Mad Realm of King Thorn).
The Oracle also tells you that Kuonghsang is a reminder that we will never fully understand the Mists, apparently referring to Kuonghsang's misunderstanding of these messages and the tragedy that resulted from his advice. It seems to me that the Spirit Realm and the Mists are pretty much the same thing, since spirits are found in all locations, not just the Underworld.

Konig Des Todes
11-11-2009, 23:27
I wouldn't so much say the Mists - as technically everything is within the Mists (as far as we know, that is) as the Mists surround everything. I'd say the Spirit Realm is more likely just simply the Rift/Realms of the Gods as a collective (assuming that the Realms of the Gods are not within the Rift).

BrettM
12-11-2009, 16:03
I wouldn't so much say the Mists - as technically everything is within the Mists (as far as we know, that is) as the Mists surround everything. I'd say the Spirit Realm is more likely just simply the Rift/Realms of the Gods as a collective (assuming that the Realms of the Gods are not within the Rift).
"The Mists" seems to be generally synonymous with "the afterlife" in the speeches of some NPCs. For example, in the end cinematic for Gates of Kryta, Justiciar Hablion kneels by one of his dead soldiers and says "May your soul find peace in the Mists." Somehow I don't think the Justiciar was considering planet Tyria as part of that, even if it is surrounded by the Mists and some spirits do refuse to leave the world. The implication seems to be that he is making a simple division between the world (the primary abode of the living, though some spirits remain) and the afterlife outside the world (the primary abode of spirits, though there are living beings there as well).

While there may be technical distinctions between the Mists, the Rift, the various godly Realms, etc., it seems that casual speech doesn't make these distinctions. Without evidence that the speaker is trying to be technical, I would regard most of the terms under discussion -- Mists, Spirit Realm, Sky Beyond the Sky, etc. -- as being generic references to the afterlife in general rather than a specific destination such as the Underworld.

Akirai Annuvil
13-11-2009, 14:41
So I just thought of a question, Abaddon has been sealed for several millenia right? And it took Kormir doing those excavations to start unleashing him right? Then, what's the connection between Abbadon and the diggings/Sunspears/Kormir?

BrettM
13-11-2009, 16:25
So I just thought of a question, Abaddon has been sealed for several millenia right? And it took Kormir doing those excavations to start unleashing him right? Then, what's the connection between Abbadon and the diggings/Sunspears/Kormir?
It was more than just Kormir's actions. Abaddon had been working to unleash himself for a very long time, slowly increasing his influence beyond the Realm of Torment, and Kormir was just the trigger to start the final phase. For example, Abaddon gained influence over Shiro a couple of hundred years before Kormir came along, showing that he had already significantly weakened the walls of his prison, and there is nothing to prove that Shiro was his earliest attempt to influence events in the world. (Hmmm. Could the Scarab Plague have been Abaddon's first attempt, about 450 years after he was imprisoned?)

I do wonder about the relationship between the Primeval Istanis and Abaddon.

Abaddon was still a legitimate god at the time the First City was founded (200 BE), so he would certainly have had followers and temples there, alongside those for the other gods. The diggings apparently contained artifacts related to Abaddon's temples there, though it is not clear why they were not all removed after his downfall as were signs of him elsewhere. (The gods seem to be quite Orwellian about this process of creating un-gods. :) I wonder if we'll ever find any diggings with old temples of Dhuum? Or find any hidden pockets of present-day Dhuum worshippers, equivalent to the Margonites.)

Those artifacts would still be connected with him, giving him a vector to influence those who dug them up. Kormir, in her curiousity, ignored the warnings and accidentally released the Apocrypha during her examinations, which ultimately became the information source that allowed Varesh to perform her rituals to bring about the final Nightfall.

Konig Des Todes
13-11-2009, 21:13
The connection. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Apocrypha) The Apocrypha was sealed (why? how? dunno) in the first city when the Scarab Plague hit, among the Apocrypha was a scroll (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jokanur_Diggings_(cinematic)) (possibly more?) which is believed to have contained a ritual to weaken the barriers between Tyria and Elona.

The apocrypha was also the cause of the first corruption of Kormir.

So the question isn't so much the "what" - but "why" and "how". Specifically why and how the Apocrypha was sealed in the first city (instead of say, the Realm of Torment).

Akirai Annuvil
13-11-2009, 23:32
Ah. Been sometime since I actuaally watched cutscenes >.>; So the Apocrypha had a scroll, and since it was unleashed it gave the scroll to Kahyet because... she asked nicely?

So the question isn't so much the "what" - but "why" and "how". Specifically why and how the Apocrypha was sealed in the first city (instead of say, the Realm of Torment).
First guess: to ensure no opening could be forged between the Realm and Tyria there needed to be a barrier present in both. The Scroll represented that barrier and was placed under sunspear guard far away from the entrance to the Realm under their trustworthy, enlightened and truthful watch. They needed something to guard the scroll though if the watch ever failed so they choose a (weak) creature of darkness.



Hm. No doesn't really make sense either.

BrettM
13-11-2009, 23:36
The connection. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Apocrypha) The Apocrypha was sealed (why? how? dunno) in the first city when the Scarab Plague hit,
I've never seen any information that connects the Apocrypha to the Scarab Plague. May I ask where you found this? It could explain quite a bit.

Such a connection might suggest that all traces of Abaddon were removed after his fall, but that he actually instigated the Scarab Plague centuries later to bring down the First City to provide a hiding place for the Apocrypha. After 450+ years of captivity, Abaddon was finally strong enough to prepare something like the Scarab Plague, but not yet strong enough to gain his release via the use of the Apocrypha. Causing the complete abandonment of Istan for a considerable period would secure the Apocrypha, brought from elsewhere after the abandonment, for long enough that it would not be discovered until the time was right.

Which leads to a further thought. All of Abaddon's other interventions were facilitated by an agent who corrupted a mortal -- the Fortuneteller for Shiro, the advisor to Vizier Khilbron, and Kahyet for Varesh. Could Palawa Joko have been the corrupted mortal involved with the Scarab Plague? I can't help but recall that everyone -- including the Margonites -- found it easy to believe that the Coffer of Joko might contain scriptures of Abaddon. It did not, of course, but it seems significant that nobody questioned whether Joko would ever have had access to such scriptures.

Gmr Leon
13-11-2009, 23:43
Ah. Been sometime since I actuaally watched cutscenes >.>; So the Apocrypha had a scroll, and since it was unleashed it gave the scroll to Kahyet because... she asked nicely?

My interpretation of those events has always been that the Apocrypha wasn't immediately active, and Kahyet stole away into the ruins with a scroll and something to rub with, like charcoal, and rubbed the inscriptions on the scroll. If that doesn't really make sense, or you're not familiar with the practice, it's just sticking the paper or parchment or whatever on whatever surface, and rubbing the charcoal on it, thus getting the inscription or what have you etched in the stone on the paper or parchment or scroll.


First guess: to ensure no opening could be forged between the Realm and Tyria there needed to be a barrier present in both. The Scroll represented that barrier and was placed under sunspear guard far away from the entrance to the Realm under their trustworthy, enlightened and truthful watch. They needed something to guard the scroll though if the watch ever failed so they choose a (weak) creature of darkness.

Hm. No doesn't really make sense either.

As I recall, the Sunspears weren't an order whenever the First City was founded, despite the presence of statues reminiscent of their order. Really, the first mention I can find of their existence at a glance is 452 AE, where they help evacuate Istan during the Scarab Plague, which suggests prior existence of the Order. It's rather hard to say, but I suppose it's a possibility that they guarded it, if it was in fact a mere scroll.

Konig Des Todes
14-11-2009, 01:36
I've never seen any information that connects the Apocrypha to the Scarab Plague. May I ask where you found this? It could explain quite a bit.There is no direct connection. The city was sealed off during the Scarab Plague, and the first time it was opened was via Kormir's orders.


As I recall, the Sunspears weren't an order whenever the First City was founded, despite the presence of statues reminiscent of their order. Really, the first mention I can find of their existence at a glance is 452 AE, where they help evacuate Istan during the Scarab Plague, which suggests prior existence of the Order. It's rather hard to say, but I suppose it's a possibility that they guarded it, if it was in fact a mere scroll.It's a shame we don't know of when the Sunspear Guard (original name of the Order of the Sunspear), all we know is that it was founded by Queen Nadijeh during the Primeval Dynasty. So before the Scarab Plague but after 200 BE - so basically a 650 year gap for their existence. Based on the description about the Order helping during the Scarab Plague - it is likely they were already renamed by that time - so clearly established.