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View Full Version : A few lore questions bothering me : ( spoilers )



sequel
09-01-2007, 17:23
1.) Gods and their avatars :

Abbaddon dies and Kormir becomes the new god absorbing the power of the slain one. The other gods call it a gift. They all follow a certain type of power which can be used for good or evil. Abbadon is considered the god of lies while Kormir becomes the god of truth, two sides of the same coin.

This got me wondering, are avatars and gods the same or just a way for the gods to influence on the world. It seems to me the power originates from the god, but the use is determinated by the avatar. Of course the god wants the power he grants to be used in a certain way and chooses his avatar wisly, asking for total obedience or even twists their minds in the way he wants them.

We also know that Varesh gradually transformed physicly into an abbadon-like creature the more abbadons power gets unleashed, maybe she had been chossen by abbadon to become his avatar.

With Abbadons defeat Kormir gets to choose for herself what to do with the power forcefully taken.

Could other choosen avatars be acting in their own manner as well ? If the gods only express power and the avatars use these couldn't the inhabitants of former Orr, have harnessed these powers and be considered the 5 gods worshipped troughout the world, while they remain only avatars.

One more thing, gaining tremendous power also comes with duties, duties established by the true gods and expressing their will even though the power granted to fullfill these duties is also used by the avatars for personnal benefit along the way.

This also leaves room for more gods influencing the world then only the 5 ( well 6 ) gods we know of ?

Well the fact avatars are the ones wielding the power given by gods would at least explain the way Kormir became an avatar/god/whatever. As for logical purpose the only "gods" we know and are confronted with are the avatars nevertheless, means we got to deal with them rather then the source of their power, but their could be something behind them we will get to face one day in later chapters.

Some facts to support this :

- the dervish seem to use the power taken at the source as well ... by which means ... by using capture signets who are said to be developped from ancient orr scrolls.

- all those we call gods are said to have been mortal once

Possible conclusion :

the civilization of orr wasn't the settlement of the gods and it wasn't the gods that granted magic skills to the world .. it was likly that this civilization
discovered ways to harness the power of gods and unleash them onto the world ... they've opened something like pandora's box.

those orr-civilians that became masters ( better then the rest ) of this new aquired powers are those we consider gods now, or rather their avatars acting to some degree according to the rules or will of these unleashed powers and acting according their own believes.

Abbadon was nevertheless considered a too dangerous power to play with and got expelled never to be used. While the other gods found unwillingly a way to interact directly with the mortal world he got neglected which would explain his rage and vengeance beeing as a first target the civilization of orr.

2.) Nemesis theory :

Which god is Abbadons true nemesis and vice versa, which god was his ultimate target ?

Why do I ask this kind of thing, well :

Grenth VS Dhuum
Balthazar VS Menzie

Also these are the gods that grant us access to their domains. The portals story ( odran something ) put aside, we seem to enter with more facility when there are wars going on in the respectif domains between the forces of gods ( no one left to guard the door, busy fighting, or enter who ever gives me a hand here beating thoses pests, since the contribution fee is meant to support either grenth or balthazar ).

Abbadon gets clearly attacked by joint forces of the 5 gods but whose leading the attack. Obviously Grenth and bathazar are busy and someone of the other 3 must have asked them to put their own affairs aside for a bit.
I don't remember in the final missions of nightfall which avatar was actually talking to Kormir about the gift and telleing her what to do, while the others only stood by ?

I also believe a strong link between new chapters and the remaining domains of gods, which arent but simple bonus levels.

I also find the vengeance theory a little to simplified. Bouh, i'm the bad Abbadon, i'll gonna take revenge and destroy everthing to become the only ruler. Chances are he had something more in mind, satisfying his revenge as a bonus feature. We'll all agree that there's is a power struggle between gods, yet they all influence the world ( abbadon even did that while beeing imprisonned ). So the influence on the world doesn't seem to be their goal, then why do they measure their respectif powers against each other ? What's the catch. Are there still powers unreached by those we consider gods ?

Connection to the first question :

In the beginning the balance between powers/gods existed and couldn't be breached by their own means until the orr found a way to influence this balance. From that day on , the gods were granted a new opportunity to determine who's the strongest among them except for abbadon. The avatars of course saw but their own benefits but their actions ultimatly were for the benefit of each individual god, increasing their presence in a world they've shared equally at start. Abbadon could just be trying to catch up with the others who conviently ignored him.


Final note : no i'm not nuts or under heavy medication, if my brain has leaked all this nonsence it's only because reading threads in the lore forum got me started, hence i'm not more lunatic then you all :grin:

Zaa Nayazu
09-01-2007, 17:50
Abbaddon dies and Kormir becomes the new god absorbing the power of the slain one. The other gods call it a gift. They all follow a certain type of power which can be used for good or evil. Abbadon is considered the god of lies while Kormir becomes the god of truth, two sides of the same coin.

Abbadon was the God of Secrets, not lies.


This got me wondering, are avatars and gods the same or just a way for the gods to influence on the world. It seems to me the power originates from the god, but the use is determinated by the avatar. Of course the god wants the power he grants to be used in a certain way and chooses his avatar wisly, asking for total obedience or even twists their minds in the way he wants them.

They are not the same as the gods. They always refer to the Gods as Master or by the Gods name.



Could other choosen avatars be acting in their own manner as well ? If the gods only express power and the avatars use these couldn't the inhabitants of former Orr, have harnessed these powers and be considered the 5 gods worshipped troughout the world, while they remain only avatars.

No idea what you tried to say here. Eaither way, I'm pretty sure the Avatars were here before Orr was even founded, dont quote me on that.


This also leaves room for more gods influencing the world then only the 5 ( well 6 ) gods we know of ?

In other topics, people have offered many posibilities to there being more Gods than the one we currently know. No solid evidence yet.


Well the fact avatars are the ones wielding the power given by gods would at least explain the way Kormir became an avatar/god/whatever. As for logical purpose the only "gods" we know and are confronted with are the avatars nevertheless, means we got to deal with them rather then the source of their power, but their could be something behind them we will get to face one day in later chapters.

Avatars have a "small" measure of power from the Gods, compared to the Gods themselves of course. Avatars are like the Chief of Police of the Gods. They dont have the same power has the Governor( X God) but they are acting on behalf of the God.




I also find the vengeance theory a little to simplified. Bouh, i'm the bad Abbadon, i'll gonna take revenge and destroy everthing to become the only ruler. Chances are he had something more in mind, satisfying his revenge as a bonus feature. We'll all agree that there's is a power struggle between gods, yet they all influence the world ( abbadon even did that while beeing imprisonned ). So the influence on the world doesn't seem to be their goal, then why do they measure their respectif powers against each other ? What's the catch. Are there still powers unreached by those we consider gods ?

Baseless speculation:

Abbadon was sent to RoT because he didnt wanted magic to be taken away from Tyria. Makes me think if Abbadon didnt wanted to get rid of humans period. Apparently we were the only ones getting our butts kicked by everyone else. We were the ones that destroyed the balance the gods had made and my guess is that Abbadon decided to give everyone else a fighting chance. The other Gods show pity, Abbadon gets mad and rebels against them.

aptaleonII
09-01-2007, 17:54
i hope i can answer some of these satisfactorily :)

The Avatars are most probably like servants of the gods, but "extensions" of them at the same time. they work for the same aims, and are the method through which the gods now interact. I would expect the gods are ones wielding the powers, but must interact through the avatars since the exodus.

Abaddon was working for an aim, it was more complicated than simply the "opposites" idea, just like although dhuum and menzies were sort of "counterparts" for grenth and balthazar, they were also eager to help Abaddon topple the whole pantheon. they were not working simply to assert dominance over their good counterparts, they were working for their aims, no matter which gods stood in their way.

Zaishen Adherent
09-01-2007, 17:58
A god's avatar is their earthly (but not necessarily 100% accurate) representation on Tyria.

The inhabitants of Orr didn't so much live with the gods as in the shadow of the gods. The avatars, as far as I can tell come from the mists or the god's chosen realm (eg: uw or fow).

The gods of Tyria are not real gods as described by many religious groups. They are like, to normal Tyrians, what the Mursaat are to the Mantle, only much more so.

I wouldn't support the theory of other gods influencing the world at present but there may well be ones that had or even will influence it.

___________

Abbadon's position unlike those of Grenth, Dhuum, Balthazer and Menzies was previously unchallenged- that is to say there was no overlapping of duties that we know of.
Certainly, now with Kormir, though.

Maybe even including Dwayna the gods are selfish, and far from all-loving, all-knowing , all-powerful etc. They work together as detailed in the manuscripts, probably only because they want to keep the other 3, their common enemies, maybe others, at bay.

I wouldn't say each God has a nemesis but has found someone in their way in the course of the power lust that they may all share.

sequel
09-01-2007, 18:25
oups .. i edited the original post before reading the replies ( well writing them took longer then for others to reply )

But now that i've read them , i think one could agree that avatars aren't gods, but it remains a speculation if they can act on their own to some degree.

I got the idea that all the avatars were once mortals but can't find the posts anymore, does there exist any evidence ( Kormir put aside ) ?

I'm also glad to find agreement on the theory that we or more specificly the orr breached an existing balance between the gods.