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Almas Darksoul
20-01-2007, 21:42
Ok, so I haven't fully explored the new HA, but I've done a couple of runs and nabbed a couple of wins (persuading my old guild to run an Airspike we had thought up ages ago), and so I've decided to create a small list of my opinions on the changes. If that makes sense.


"Team Deathmatch" games (Broken Tower/Courtyard/Hall of Heroes) - I personally quite enjoy this game type. It does promote a certain sense of strategy - retreating is common, and strategic movement plays a large role. This is especially true in Courtyard, which has a lot of space to move around in and allow you to attack from a variety of angles. Burial Mounds isn't as good, but is still quite interesting. I will say that in Hall of Heroes, this gametype really suffers. Many teams still have the "Gank the Holding Team" mentality, which can make life harder for some. It's also very hard to move around in - there are only straight routes, no "loops" to escape chase in. This can also lead to rezz ganking, which kinda sucks. It's a step up from Altar, though. The final problem is that it rather messes up pressure builds - damage builds are much more likely to get kills as pressure builds merely "soften up" the target. This is increased by the "damage" boost of the altar. Perhaps instead a "HP Decrease" to teams not holding the altar? Or a secondary bonus improving hex/condition duration by, say, 25%.
"Murder Ball" (3-way 1-flag relic run in Halls) - A very interesting new gametype. I initially thought the name was a bit stupid, but playing a few games in it actually makes you understand it. Unfortunately, it's a VERY "skill" related (as in Windborn Speed etc.) - from what I understand, speed boosts will stack to an unlimited degree on the relic carrier. Even if not, 3-4 is used in the top teams. It's a replacement for the utility skills used in altar capping, I guess. However, it promotes mass-aoe builds in Hall of Heroes, as blocking is easy to pull off with 12 people blocking your runner. To get your runner past gale-lock and mass-block with foes, you NEED enough AoE to force enemies to scatter (if not die horribly).
Alliance Battle Halls - I admit I haven't played this gametype. However, it seems the most balanced and fair of what I've seen. To some degree it does promote "independant" characters for the capturing of the enemy altars (they need to be able to get through the enemy team and survive anything that could be sent back), but I personally think this is a good thing and goes against the "required" skills made by the other gametypes.
Hall reward changes - Yes. About time too.
Scarred Earth dead - Good news. Hate that map. Attempts to improve it only made it worse.
Burial Mounds Back - Yup, I love this too.
Skill Balances - The majority of those I have read, I agree with fully.


The biggest problem I see is with the "forced" use of AoE damage builds. Conditions don't kill anywhere near as quickly as damage does, and end up just making life easier for the damage teams. This seriously restricts build choices you can make, and ruins chances of originality even more.
Weaker teams are more likely to be victimised by killcount matches, where two highly-skilled teams know that they could spend their time slowly killing each other, or just gather massive amounts of kills by chain-killing the newbies.

Finally, I can't help just wondering as I play... Dayumn, this would be a LOT more fun if there were 8 players on my team.

Despite this all, I personally think it's a change for the better. There's still a long way to go, though. And once again you'll piss off any HA-Elite that currently play.

Ranger Nietzsche
21-01-2007, 09:39
the thing about encouragement of Damage dealing builds is that it removes the old super holding builds like sig of mystic wrath


mass degen actually nets you a lot of kills you kill steal a lot of targets that the other team dropped low

opuis
21-01-2007, 19:58
The biggest problem I see is with the "forced" use of AoE damage builds. Conditions don't kill anywhere near as quickly as damage does, and end up just making life easier for the damage teams. This seriously restricts build choices you can make, and ruins chances of originality even more.


When I got home Saturday I was so excited to see the skill balances and the HA changes. After observing quite a few matches and looking at the "balances", I turned off my PC and did something else. Originality with no consequence was always the shining point of TotpK and HA. I'm sorry I can't add anything constructive here, but the changes didnt seem to get me excited. I sincerely hope the new generation of HA'ers can enjoy it like we once did.

Demon Balkoth
02-02-2007, 03:30
I don't understand some of the changes they re-implemented.
They did nothing to stop kill stealing on the kill count maps;
No new maps, just changes to old ones;
The new changes lack a death penalty;
and Anet did very little to stop 20+ minute battles on some maps!!!

But, luckly, the good changes far outnumber the bad.
8V8 COMING February 9th!!!!!! ZOMG~!~~!! if I could put a million smiles on that, i would!

Tristan Chapin
02-02-2007, 10:27
mass degen actually nets you a lot of kills you kill steal a lot of targets that the other team dropped low

This isn't actually the case; quite the opposite, in fact, because teams with specific pressure capabilities are able to select targets and ensure they do the majority of damage in the last few seconds of the target's life. This leaves degen teams critically underpowered in this map format, which is what a lot of people seem to be saying.

...
In response to the last sentence of the OP, you may be pleased to learn that HA-elitists have staked out a repute of dissatisfaction with what HA has become in the last few months Almas! Especially since the Nightfall changes were endorsed (and continue to be endorsed) overwhelmingly by non-HAers.

Ranger Nietzsche
02-02-2007, 16:27
right but because degen is pressure over time and the kill system is who did the most damage in the last 10 seconds you end up often slowly finishing off targets longer than 10 seconds, netting kills.

Though spike AOE damage is still more successful on kill counts.

but overall i think the new map variety means that no build will always beat you on any map.

One thing im curious about is who gets the kills if I fertile bomb a team?


Also, note to Demon. They did shorten the kill count maps, which is good. Kill "Stealing" is still kind of meh. Cuz if you didn't do the majority damage in the last 10 seconds you don't really deserve the kill. e.g. if you pressure a target down to 75% and someone else spikes it, why should you get credit when most of the energy spent killing target was from the spiking team.

Also no DP on kill count is very nice, allows for comebacks.

And I'm curious how you got a 20min. map when most maps are timed and when holding builds are sort of pointless? I think bad luck. I STILL see 6 man paragon teams but it won't be long before they give up after losing broken tower too many tiems.

Almas Darksoul
02-02-2007, 21:39
right but because degen is pressure over time and the kill system is who did the most damage in the last 10 seconds you end up often slowly finishing off targets longer than 10 seconds, netting kills.

Though spike AOE damage is still more successful on kill counts.

but overall i think the new map variety means that no build will always beat you on any map.

One thing im curious about is who gets the kills if I fertile bomb a team?

Also, note to Demon. They did shorten the kill count maps, which is good. Kill "Stealing" is still kind of meh. Cuz if you didn't do the majority damage in the last 10 seconds you don't really deserve the kill. e.g. if you pressure a target down to 75% and someone else spikes it, why should you get credit when most of the energy spent killing target was from the spiking team.
.

Where does it say that the kill system is based on damage during the last 10 seconds of their life? I cannot find this quote anywhere.

Fertile Bombs don't exactly "kill" people, they leave them on negative net hp. The player won't die until they take damage (or degen etc.) or healing which doesn't put them into positive health. Regenerating slowly will not kill someone - but a monk casting healing breeze on them will cause the divine favor bonus to.

That said, if someone dies from the latter method, technically it would be a teamkill. Interesting...

Ranger Nietzsche
03-02-2007, 21:35
Where does it say that the kill system is based on damage during the last 10 seconds of their life? I cannot find this quote anywhere.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439704

Savsuds
03-02-2007, 23:00
On the no DP maps, I would suggest a 5% DP per death. Not too severe, but enough to make a team have to adjust after some time.

Here is why I think that way:

1. The only runner dies, the team should have to eventually have someone else run due to DP incurred. This rewards tactics calls more. Some builds will have to be more diverse as a result.

2. How many times should you be able to keep killing the same team? Routinely I have seen the weakest team get killed over and over to get more kills. They should get dp'd out so the 2 betters teams have to face off instead.

3. Less health from dp makes for more killing. More killing/Less Holding is what Anet wants?!?

Kylden Ar
03-02-2007, 23:48
The changes are pointless, at least on the American't servers.

They;

Can't change from cookie cutter builds
Can't consider something other than build of the week
Can't take a ELe that's not Fire...
Can't take a Monk that is not ZB...
Can't... well, you get the idea.


To get in a team, I have to ignore the newly changed skills in favor of crap that I know doesn't work. Then I have to watch as I get my *** kicked by Euros that use skill combos of the new changes that I thought of, and wonder, "Why are my fellows that dumb?"

And really, why can a team not manage to kill a single Monk that has been hit with a 126 point Backfire? WHY?

Anyone want to join me in an anti-SF team? Frigid Armor, Frozen Burst, Lightning Touch, B-Surge, 10/10/11 point spread (with runes of choice), tell you, that combo makes people dead. Racked up 26 kills by myself in RA with it.

Ranger Nietzsche
04-02-2007, 04:00
everyone knows teh best place to PUG is ID1-3

and just a note, good RA builds don't necessarily carry over into HA

Ryuujinx
04-02-2007, 09:20
I was running a 5 person Discord spike, it was too conditional and necros only have so many conditions they can apply.. so 'hey that thing has a condition, watch out for the spike'

worked pretty well but i'd rather go balanced..

Kylden Ar
04-02-2007, 16:25
and just a note, good RA builds don't necessarily carry over into HA

Oh, certainly, but it's a good place to tinker with ideas. Epically as you can't count on your teammates there, and well, lately, you can't count on a PUG in HA either. :angry:



worked pretty well but i'd rather go balanced..

Look out, we agree again. :huh: That's twice now.

thedrjay
04-02-2007, 17:16
The changes are pointless, at least on the American't servers.

They;

Can't change from cookie cutter builds
Can't consider something other than build of the week
Can't take a ELe that's not Fire...
Can't take a Monk that is not ZB...
Can't... well, you get the idea.


To get in a team, I have to ignore the newly changed skills in favor of crap that I know doesn't work. Then I have to watch as I get my *** kicked by Euros that use skill combos of the new changes that I thought of, and wonder, "Why are my fellows that dumb?"

And really, why can a team not manage to kill a single Monk that has been hit with a 126 point Backfire? WHY?

Anyone want to join me in an anti-SF team? Frigid Armor, Frozen Burst, Lightning Touch, B-Surge, 10/10/11 point spread (with runes of choice), tell you, that combo makes people dead. Racked up 26 kills by myself in RA with it.

Nice to hear that you aren't pigeonholing a whole country from the groups that you have played with or seen spamming for a team while you are on. And why would any decent group bring backfire? A why are you not playing on teams that attempt to emulate euro-spike, which you seem to be so fond of? Your attempt to use RA knowledge for the HA metagame is disconcerting to say the least.

Kylden Ar
04-02-2007, 18:28
Your attempt to use RA knowledge for the HA metagame is disconcerting to say the least.

Would you prefer GvG? Or AB? Cause I got over 4 times the time in that that I can get in HA cause of this exclusion crap. Or maybe you'd like to get off your high horse and invite people that want to learn every once in a while?

I thought not. :rolleyes:

Ryuujinx
04-02-2007, 19:55
Look out, we agree again. :huh: That's twice
now.

THe world is ending.. go rob that bank while you still can :rolleyes:


Would you prefer GvG? Or AB? Cause I got over 4 times the time in that that I can get in HA cause of this exclusion crap. Or maybe you'd like to get off your high horse and invite people that want to learn every once in a while?

I thought not. :rolleyes:

Tag along with people that are ranked like I do =P

thedrjay
04-02-2007, 20:05
Would you prefer GvG? Or AB? Cause I got over 4 times the time in that that I can get in HA cause of this exclusion crap. Or maybe you'd like to get off your high horse and invite people that want to learn every once in a while?

I thought not. :rolleyes:

The HA metagame is completely different from all the other forms of PvP that you have mentioned. (I don't consider AB or RA true PvP but that's a different story)

1. Why am I on a high horse? I earned my rank the way everyone else has. You should do the same.

2. You can't get into HA because you refuse to do what everyone else has done. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

3. If you have GvG experience, you should already have a network of friends who can do HA with you.

4. You complaints about exclusionism are ridiculous to say the least. Either group with those who have the same rank (and considering that you can't get into any HA grps, because of said rank, your ability to be a good player suffers as the playstyles are vastly different from GvG) or form your own teams.

Your post screams of somebody who thinks that because they are good in GvG that automatically means you should be able to HA with R9's. Why? You're a rank 1 scrub in their eyes and they want to compete with those whose skill level is the same. As yours is not, what's the problem? You want somebody to hold your hand? You want those who are playing to take time out to train you about the HA metagame?

Ryuujinx
05-02-2007, 01:16
The HA metagame is completely different from all the other forms of PvP that you have mentioned. (I don't consider AB or RA true PvP but that's a different story)

1. Why am I on a high horse? I earned my rank the way everyone else has. You should do the same.

2. You can't get into HA because you refuse to do what everyone else has done. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

3. If you have GvG experience, you should already have a network of friends who can do HA with you.

4. You complaints about exclusionism are ridiculous to say the least. Either group with those who have the same rank (and considering that you can't get into any HA grps, because of said rank, your ability to be a good player suffers as the playstyles are vastly different from GvG) or form your own teams.

Your post screams of somebody who thinks that because they are good in GvG that automatically means you should be able to HA with R9's. Why? You're a rank 1 scrub in their eyes and they want to compete with those whose skill level is the same. As yours is not, what's the problem? You want somebody to hold your hand? You want those who are playing to take time out to train you about the HA metagame?

I agree with this for the most part... except the bolded part.
Rank =/= SKill. I'm sorry, I'm rank 1. I have 60 fame, I have a couple firneds who are rank 5/6 one of the r6 friends thought I was a good player, he brought me alogn with one of his firneds who was r8/9(can't remember specifics I just know every other match a whisper from my frined 'make sure you don't say anyone about your rank here only me and force know your unranked') well afterwards his friend said he was impressed as well.

Moral of the story: Beeing low rank doesn't mean they suck, it means they haven't been around as long. Then again, maybe I'm different or something >.>;

Kylden Ar
05-02-2007, 06:32
1. Why am I on a high horse? I earned my rank the way everyone else has. You should do the same.


Before you can even claim that, how long have you been playing this game? We all know the stories of easy fame in the early days.

And you avoided the question. Yes or no, will you invite unranked players who have the needed skills and are willing to learn a balanced build?
Cause I got no interest in _____WAY.


2. You can't get into HA because you refuse to do what everyone else has done. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

What? IWAY? Cookie cutter builds? Then I still don't learn nothing. What's the point?


3. If you have GvG experience, you should already have a network of friends who can do HA with you.


That don't do HA. Because of the rank discrimination. That helps. In fact, my guild is currently dead because of Vanguard.


4. You(r) complaints about exclusionism are ridiculous to say the least. Either group with those who have the same rank (and considering that you can't get into any HA groups, because of said rank, your ability to be a good player suffers as the playstyles are vastly different from GvG) or form your own teams.

Yeah... because I'm going to learn lots from IWAY teams that can't even follow called targets. :rolleyes:

So, let me sum up what you've told me. "Suck it up kiddo, you didn't get in on PvP and the Hall of Heroes when it was still in the tombs, so the ranked kiddies will not play with you except to farm you and other noobs for even more fame." You know what, forum rules be damned, but you can **** off.

Really, I've got a wife, kids, jobs, classes, the kids after school activities... you think I have another year to waste grinding out rank 3 so I can flash the *** little deer for the rank 6 15 year olds who never leave the damn house?

"MMO for the casual gamer" my white ***. They should have been honest and said "PvE for casual gamer, PvP for l33t 15 year olds living of mommy and daddy only."

They should get rid of the limits on heroes/henchmen for the casual PvP people if they meant that.

Zain Inferno
05-02-2007, 10:55
Pfft...Rank descrimination never bugged me much. I have an acute ability to lie and sneak into Rank 6+ groups...I actually got Rank 3 holding halls in a Rank 6+ group that my friend snuck me into.(Friggin funny when the message came up...suprised everybody and we still did a few runs after we lost control of HoH.) If you want to get in a high rank group with a low rank you have to either...

A:
Start your own group...You can be rankless and advertise for R6+ players. To trick them into believing in your rank don't advertise specific builds. For example: "R6+ group with vent looking for 2 Monks, a Dervish, and 2 Elementalists. Will tell you the build after you join."...This will show them that you only take experienced people with skills unlocked. Before you type anything, spell check. You'll be suprised how convinced they will be.

B:
Have a high rank friend to ask you in. Even R6 players 90% of time don't check the rank of a party members friend. If they don't check then your in and always remember to spell check.

C:
Lying. I've got in a R8+ group by whispering the leader saying something along the lines of this..."Hey do I know you? I recognized your name while you were advertising and you are on my friends list?"...They reply saying they don't remember you...You reply..."Well I only add people I win HoH with...Assuming I came accross you in HA/ToA?"...They usually reply asking your rank. You need to say..."Well...I took a break from GW so my rank is not 8 but I'm really good at ________ and could probably out ________ most R8s..." You then say... "I'd love it if you could give me a chance, I swear ya won't regret it."
Basically this messes around with the persons emotions...He now thinks he has played with you before...They also think that you guys held halls together before...Finding R8+ Pugs is also very difficult. He will probably let you in. Now you just have to be as good as a R8+ person at the build you are playing and you're set. If you don't get in or if you aren't good enough, just try again or, in the case you weren't good enough, level rank normally.


'Course if your not a manipulitive bastard then stop complaining...If you can't sneak yourself in or get the rank up normally(by joining friends partys or PUGS of your rank. You will probably level rank slow in a PUG but it will be more rewarding when you can get into those high rank teams normally)


Now back on subject XD...I kinda miss the king of the hill feeling of alter battles but I'll get over it...Murderball is more fun then expected. All the rest are different but pretty much the same entertainment wise as thier originals...


Also I bet after reading my guide on getting into high rank parties alot of people will flame me...Remember sometimes they will reply differently and you will have to use your own wit in option C. Still, try to keep the flaming at a minimum. My self esteem can't take too much abuse, ya know.

PS: I know I did stress spell checking but please don't spell check this XD...Early morning here and I need my coffee.

Parker Bsb
05-02-2007, 12:07
So, let me sum up what you've told me. "Suck it up kiddo, you didn't get in on PvP and the Hall of Heroes when it was still in the tombs, so the ranked kiddies will not play with you except to farm you and other noobs for even more fame." You know what, forum rules be damned, but you can **** off.

Really, I've got a wife, kids, jobs, classes, the kids after school activities... you think I have another year to waste grinding out rank 3 so I can flash the *** little deer for the rank 6 15 year olds who never leave the damn house?

"MMO for the casual gamer" my white ***. They should have been honest and said "PvE for casual gamer, PvP for l33t 15 year olds living of mommy and daddy only."

C-ya in 3 days, don't bother coming back if you want to keep the same attitude.

BTW I have a wife and kids as well as a full time job and I go to university... frankly I'm appaled that you are as immature as this post indicates you to be.

Domina Spellbinder
05-02-2007, 12:42
I've seen several high-ranked players describe how they started out in HA and their tips were of great help to me.

But basically you shouldn't expect high-ranks to party up with you. It takes only one idiot to lose a match, other high-ranking teams are quick to pick up on those who do not kite, overextend, etc.

What you should do to get into HA:

1) join a HA guild that is looking for starter players. These guilds typically don't have a lot of experience themselves, but the name of the game is learn together.

2) play with PuGs, anybody you like you add to your friendslist. Only takes a few weeks to build up a nice friendslist.

3) Play often with above players, get to know each other likes and playing styles.

Yes, your teams will suck at the start, but gradually your friends will become better and you will start winning.

I did above things, well I started my own guild, with a focus on HA, but my friendslist is my most powerful tool for teambuilding still.

thedrjay
05-02-2007, 13:55
Before you can even claim that, how long have you been playing this game? We all know the stories of easy fame in the early days.

I have been playing since GW was released. What this has to do with the discussion is beyond me as I did not start as a PvP player.


And you avoided the question. Yes or no, will you invite unranked players who have the needed skills and are willing to learn a balanced build?
Cause I got no interest in _____WAY.

Most of the ___Way build have been gone from HA for a substantial amount of time. I will not invite unranked players into my group. I will invite low ranked players in (my guild actually trains players in HA) but requires Rank 3 to prove that the player is interested in doing HA on a semi-regular to regular basis)



What? IWAY? Cookie cutter builds? Then I still don't learn nothing. What's the point?

Why do you keep bringing up IWAY. It's been dead for ages. As for Cookie cutters? In simplest terms the cookie cutter build (thumpers, SF's, SS warders, Pd mes's all prior to this weekend by the way) help you get acclimated to the HA environment, learning the maps and how to interact with your team. I don't understand how you can say you won't learn anything.



That don't do HA. Because of the rank discrimination. That helps. In fact, my guild is currently dead because of Vanguard.

Agaim, sounds like a personal problem. Be proactive. Find a new guild that does what you want to do. Complaining because you can't do what you want makes you sound like one of your children complaining they don't want to go to school. :wink:


Yeah... because I'm going to learn lots from IWAY teams that can't even follow called targets. :rolleyes:

Again you mention IWAY. Let me give you some advice. IWAY isn't around anymore.


So, let me sum up what you've told me. "Suck it up kiddo, you didn't get in on PvP and the Hall of Heroes when it was still in the tombs, so the ranked kiddies will not play with you except to farm you and other noobs for even more fame." You know what, forum rules be damned, but you can **** off.

Really, I've got a wife, kids, jobs, classes, the kids after school activities... you think I have another year to waste grinding out rank 3 so I can flash the *** little deer for the rank 6 15 year olds who never leave the damn house?

Stop. I'm telling you that if you want to get into HA you need to do the same thing that everyone else has done in all walks of life and start on the bottom and make your way to the top. Alot of the players in the game have just as many responsibilities as yourself however they maximize their time by finding guilds and friends that can help them achieve their goal. You whine because they do it and you don't. Again, sounds like a personal problem.


"MMO for the casual gamer" my white ***. They should have been honest and said "PvE for casual gamer, PvP for l33t 15 year olds living of mommy and daddy only."

Think about it for a second, if all you want is your deer. It's only 180 fame. you could earn 6 fame a night total and within a month have a dear. That certainly sounds casual to me.

Almas Darksoul
05-02-2007, 18:00
Somehow the thread got horribly jacked, but meh well.

Some points from what people have said:


Yeah, back a year ago it really was easier to earn fame. Even without using spirit spam/dual smite (I never played the former, and rarely the latter), groups and even pugs were a lot nicer people generally. One moment that strikes me is being in a pug as a monk and the leader asking me if I had martyr (he had to ask about four times since at the time I was unfamiliar with the American accent over vent, but meh well). The response "no, but I have Spellbreaker" was acceptable by the group, and everyone went on their merry way. Getting horribly owned by an Airspike lead to actual constructive criticisms, which at the time were my fault. Since then, of course, the attitude of pugs has gone downhill quickly, and I won't deny this (although I will say it's probably because a lot of the nicer players attained the ranks easily from working together, getting friends etc.). However, I still know a good many people who have put serious effort into the grind and their willingness to learn and adapt has gotten them far - a long time ago I ran a series of pug groups and the result was the creation of a guild which now rests in the top 100. My point is that although there is a lot of grind, and a lot of people are ignorant morons, the kind, skilled players have a way of finding each other, if only they have enough patience for it to happen.
If you're already a truly skilled player, playing fotm builds WILL teach you about HA. It's your best shot of reaching later maps and learning about the playstyles there. This is especially useful if you're a natural leader, as if you can get a pug of semi-skilled players to these maps, experience in how you got rolled as a fotm will really help you in playing to win. I find this especially true in the map Sacred Temples - where I've played as a spike build with no speed boosts and led a team of friends into winning against a highly respectable group of other players despite only getting 2-3 kills during the game, through superior maneuvering, tactics, and map knowledge. You will need to learn what works buildwise in HA though, and this requires some practise in itself - playing fotms allows you to skip this step easily until you reach a point where you're more likely to be good at it. If you're unskilled and just play fotm, you will still learn some things, but will have a lot of problems trying to change build. Even so, large amounts of experience and practise in one "lame" build can sometimes lead to acceptance - for example, back when IWAY was around, many highly-skilled players respected the guild MATH as they played the IWAY build extremely well, and made their own innovative changes to it. Playing against MATH was often a genuine challenge and experience, while fighting other IWAY groups was generally dull (not to mention fairly easy).
A snide attitude will not lead you to getting good groups in HA. Accept the fact that players such as thedrjay, despite the fact that they can be moronic and rude at times, really are better than you at HA. Going up to a ranked team and telling them to let you in their group because you're really, really good at GvG and Alliance Battles (?) and they're arrogant and cruel, will rarely get you into a group. Especially if you mention the fact that you use backfire. Many strategies which are uncommon or completely unused in other gametypes are of paramount importance in HA. For example, bodyblocking in GvG is a technique used maybe once every three or four games, as part of a push for morale. However, in HA it's likely that you'll be using this strategy atleast once per run, and practise you will have gotten from other arenas will be rather useless in comparison. HA requires a lot more instinctive and reactive skill than GvG, which requires a lot more pre-planning and group coordination then HA (and both require more of either than any other gametype currently in existance, save maybe elite-level PvE). Accept the idea that you have things to learn and techniques to practise, and you'll find that players are more accepting of you. Spam what you're experienced at, but mention that you're willing to learn, and you're likely to find a pug in ID districts. If you're lucky, it'll be a ranked pug, and you'll have a chance to prove yourself. If not, then enjoy the opportunity to get some more experience and fame in a pug. There are players out there that are willing to play with lower ranked players, but they won't invite you if your attempt to join is written in a way that implies you're better than them. All that said, I personally believe that after around rank 6 a player should have learned almost everything about Heroes' Ascent save a few key pieces of information. By this point, experience in GvG allows coordinated teams to reach the pinnacle of HA (i.e. winning halls atleast once every 1-2 serious runs). This experience is a lot less important until you reach a high enough level, though.
The stuff Zerg Inferno said is rather funny, but to some level quite accurate too. There have been multiple occasions where I've helped power-rank a friend by getting them into high ranked groups (namely Guild teams), and I've had it happen to me too. A while ago rank increases would be shown in the chat box, and it was always funny to see the entire group start laughing/raging at you when they read "XXX has reached rank 2!". Similarly, I once remember being part of an "elite" player pug of friendslisted players, all of whom were r9-10+. I felt fairly guilty as I was rank 7 or so at the time, until we won courtyard and one player announced they had finally gotten their bambi (and proceeded to spam it after the game ended), much to the amusement of the rest of the team. Similarly, it's possible to get into groups by pretending to be a better rank and hoping they don't check - once I got into a rank9+ pug without ever showing my rank title or emote. I was rank 10, but it was still quite funny not getting asked, despite asking the leader for a skillbar (I hadn't played HA in a while since they had made it 6v6). Pretending to be a group leader's friend sounds a bit cheap, though... To each his own, I suppose. Prepared to get flamed if they find you out.

Yay for essays created after going off on a tangent.

Now, about HA:

King of the Hill gamestyle is rather enjoyable, and that hasn't really been commented on before. I find it quite fun, although they have nerfed some things which many saw as strategies (the "Altar" is a much larger area now - it's nearly impossible to block a Ghostly Hero from starting the capture skill.) 2sec cast time on Claim Resource is also arguably too far, 3sec would be more apt imo. That said, there seems to be quite a large delay in between each casting, so getting one interrupt off can make a difference in who captures the altar (which is a good thing in my opinion, atleast). However, the fact that points are gained like they are rather encourages a slacker attitude, especially if a team manages to hold for several minutes. Multiple games I've had our team has gotten to a point where the enemy cannot catch up (being 4+ points ahead of all opposition with 2 minutes left, for example), and it feels rather dull to just sit around until the game ends. Some form of giving teams the ability to earn the extra points would be nice, but would have to be original enough to not encourage capping late to get bonus points somehow. I personally can't think of a way.

All this said, this point in time is probably one of those where I have enjoyed Guild Wars the most for maybe around half a year now. Changes have been made and it is clear that Anet is trying to make HA into a reasonable arena again, and the return of 8v8 actually has me excited. More players are playing in HA, hopefully giving some the ability to ascend into a "new" HA elite once all changes are finalised. Once again, though, more people are bound to be annoyed. A friend of mine was really annoyed with Anet after the 6v6 change (but persisted to play since they wanted a phoenix), and now that Anet is changing it back they're even angrier. This is probably due to the fact that holding halls is a lot harder now, although I partially hope this will change with 8v8. There is a certain fun in holding halls, although I personally find it more enjoyable to have a different match every time. It'll get stale eventually, but that'll be a good few months from now. By then if another expansion is released GW balance may well be doomed anyhow.

Wuzzman
05-02-2007, 22:22
Its sad that after so many years high end pvp is still for the majority of players who actually want to be good at it inaccessible.

Meta Dervish
05-02-2007, 22:53
Hence why whenever someone I know actually want to try out Guild Wars, I would just tell them to don't bother with HA by themselves cuz they'll never accomplish anything unless they get lucky or I sneak them into a group. (I got lucky, started early).

Of course most of them end up trying anyways, my record now is a guy who ran balanced group for 3 weeks straight and earned 20 beautiful fame, in which at least 10 of them is only because the other team Err 7ed, had leaver, or lag. So for 180 fame he had to do that 8 more times which is 27 weeks in total, 6 months and 3 weeks. It was no surprise he decided to just do PvE and FA + RA + HB instead, how he endured 3 weeks is still a mystery to me lol.

halfthought
06-02-2007, 00:23
C-ya in 3 days, don't bother coming back if you want to keep the same attitude.

BTW I have a wife and kids as well as a full time job and I go to university... frankly I'm appaled that you are as immature as this post indicates you to be.

yeah i agree.

on top of college, personal life, ETC I can manage maybe the 8-10 hours a week it took to get R3.

honestly im appalled that you would say so many swearwords on a forum that could be viewed by those same :kiddies: :rolleyes:


Its sad that after so many years high end pvp is still for the majority of players who actually want to be good at it inaccessible.

Fame is not acquired by grinding the first map in tombs, but it is acquired with cunning, joining teams that have potential, getting a smart nice guild willing to accept unranked ETC.

HA is must like the business world. You can be a accountant forever, and not be rich, but with smarts and cunning, fortune is easy.


Hence why whenever someone I know actually want to try out Guild Wars, I would just tell them to don't bother with HA by themselves cuz they'll never accomplish anything unless they get lucky or I sneak them into a group. (I got lucky, started early).

Of course most of them end up trying anyways, my record now is a guy who ran balanced group for 3 weeks straight and earned 20 beautiful fame, in which at least 10 of them is only because the other team Err 7ed, had leaver, or lag. So for 180 fame he had to do that 8 more times which is 27 weeks in total, 6 months and 3 weeks. It was no surprise he decided to just do PvE and FA + RA + HB instead, how he endured 3 weeks is still a mystery to me lol.

im sorry to say, but if that guy wishs to be anything but mediocre in REAL life, he must learn to be ummm

more smart.


20 fame in 3 weeks.......... the only way he could have accomplished that is by joining the teams who wanted to do "ramdom way" By the time I playing HA CASUALLY for (no more then 10 hours a week) for 1 month, I could assemble a decent group, and get to halls (usually not win :tongue: ) in 2-3 hours. That person is like the accountent in my former post; not a leader, a follower. Most followers in RL make a 40,000 average salary, and die mediocre.

halfthought
06-02-2007, 00:34
curse you connection :P

Zain Inferno
06-02-2007, 01:59
Somehow the thread got horribly jacked, but meh well.

The stuff Zerg Inferno said is rather funny, but to some level quite accurate too. There have been multiple occasions where I've helped power-rank a friend by getting them into high ranked groups (namely Guild teams), and I've had it happen to me too. A while ago rank increases would be shown in the chat box, and it was always funny to see the entire group start laughing/raging at you when they read "XXX has reached rank 2!". Similarly, I once remember being part of an "elite" player pug of friendslisted players, all of whom were r9-10+. I felt fairly guilty as I was rank 7 or so at the time, until we won courtyard and one player announced they had finally gotten their bambi (and proceeded to spam it after the game ended), much to the amusement of the rest of the team. Similarly, it's possible to get into groups by pretending to be a better rank and hoping they don't check - once I got into a rank9+ pug without ever showing my rank title or emote. I was rank 10, but it was still quite funny not getting asked, despite asking the leader for a skillbar (I hadn't played HA in a while since they had made it 6v6). Pretending to be a group leader's friend sounds a bit cheap, though... To each his own, I suppose. Prepared to get flamed if they find you out.


Zerg *tear*. Friends power ranking you will always be the most honorable and fun method. As I said, I got my Rank 3 in a Rank 6+(Mainly R8s) while holding halls. Was hillarious. They were less angry then they were in awe. We held a few more times then lost and did another run, making it to Halls but losing. The cool thing about that was it proves that a complete noob in someone's eyes can prove themself to be the best party member they could get. High ranked people are less into rank and more into actual skill. If you manage to sneak in and prove yourself they will see you and respect as if you were ranked high. The 3rd method I tend to avoid at all costs, anyways. It has gotten me in groups before so I posted it anyways but as said, avoid doing this.

Also after trying the official King of the Hill game type, I find this much more enjoyable then normal alter matches. The tactics have changed a bit but over all it's definitly a fun match.

Ranger Nietzsche
06-02-2007, 02:37
hey i got into 치 The Spearmen 치 at r5 when they were theoretically r8+ only for new members.

I just tagged along with one of their groups, then we held halls 12 times with a non-holding build by pretty much chain interrupting two ghosts for 1-1:30 minutes every time. Since it was my savage shot that was helping in this process I got an invite.

So yeah, use connections with friends and start forging them if you don't have any, you'd be surprised where you end up.

Buddah
06-02-2007, 17:13
Also after trying the official King of the Hill game type, I find this much more enjoyable then normal alter matches. The tactics have changed a bit but over all it's definitly a fun match.

People want action and killing is action.

The Murderball is action as well.

Despite what Gaile said I'd question 8v8 so far. If nothing gets posted on some official site/ingame notice in the next 12 hours I'd wonder if she didn't feed some incorrect info yet again. I'm still happy with 6v6 as it provides that different environment that I enjoy.

thedrjay
06-02-2007, 18:47
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2503427

Heroes' Ascent:
You know about the testing weekend this week, of course. (See the news post of January 30th.) Having received a great deal of valuable player feedback about HA last weekend, we've made some really significant changes to some of the maps and gameplay mechanics.

We will hold testing of Heroes' Ascent with an 8v8 party size configuration next weekend, starting on February 9th. This will be a limited test-nor more than a week in length-after which we will revert to the current 6v6.

We will then continue to collect community feedback on the party size issue before making a final decision on HA party size by the end of February.

Parker Bsb
07-02-2007, 13:04
Taking bets on Make HA 6v6 again threads popping up within 2 days of 8v8 being re-instated again (this is assuming it will be of course).

Buddah
07-02-2007, 16:24
Taking bets on Make HA 6v6 again threads popping up within 2 days of 8v8 being re-instated again (this is assuming it will be of course).

Turnabout is fair play.

Ranger Nietzsche
07-02-2007, 17:29
Taking bets taht the "make it 6v6" petition is a lot smaller

ImSoToast
08-02-2007, 02:58
You know what I am afraid of? Peoples short, realy short memories.

See when 6v6 was proposed all the supporters were just absolutely positive that creativity will be unleashed on GW. Well what 3 months later and you have 2 predominant builds. What happened to all the people that said good bye to cookie cutter builds in 6v6? People said that less choices means we will have more creativity because its well "forced" with less choices or some crap.

Well what will happen is a lot of spike builds will come back for the 8v8 weekend. Now all these people will come back preaching the bs that 6v6 doesn't have spikes and thus has more creative builds.

The simple fact to me is that no matter if its 6v6 or 8v8 or any other party size I would like the supporters to have logical reasons for their causes.

For instance, I like 8v8 and I can logically say that even with spikes being rampant, 8v8 has more build options. This is what I like about 8v8 over 6v6.

Now I won't really mind if there are all these pro 6v6 threads, as long as none of them try to tell me that builds are "better" or more varied in 6v6.

Shoot I got a decent ammount of fame playing duo smite in 6v6 before the aoe nerf with zealots fire nerf. It's funny because in 8v8 duo smite or smite in general wasn't as popular for as long as it was for 6v6, go figure huh? The reason I know this is because I loved playing an aoe smiter since it was the only pvp monk role I could actually be efficient at.

Raven Flameheart
08-02-2007, 13:03
Well, I never really played HA before it became 6v6, but I think I can predict some major gimmicks being run this weekend. And I'll be doing it too, just for funsies. It's not so much the presence of cookie-cutter builds per se (because you could have a 2-man cc build), it's the potential level of abuse from said builds (the more number of people, the more cookie-cutter builds have effect on the out-come.)

Oh, and ImSoToast : Zealot's smite is still part of a few HA builds, using an E/Mo smiter with Master of Magic, smiting off Dervishes to give them energy boosts.

Kylden Ar
08-02-2007, 17:08
Fine. I admit it. My anger got the better of me.

I apologize. I don't like being a jerk, but it happens more than I'd like to admit.

Now, try to see where I'm coming from. You all have your rank, or are really close to it.

Option 1) Join a HA guild.

Right now I'm in my 3rd guild since starting this game (4th if you count my brief attempt at making my own before I realized I had no time to build up a guild). It's dying because of Vanguard. The other two died because of other MMOs as well. So, every time I've made friends in this game, they have vanished. So, no base there. I'm to the point now where I don't want to join a guild because I fear they'll fall apart.

So, option 2) Try forming my own groups.

Maybe it was easier when you guys did it, but these days it is almost downright impossible.


Spend 20 minutes or more making the team, then enter the battle. Ok, well, rough start, but it's our first time working together, we can pull... awww hell. One of the monks just ragequit. (Oh, yeah, but not before calling us noobs. Hello, you JOINED the noob team.) Ok, we made it, even got a little morale boost and no one died. Ok. Wait for the next area to load, talk a bit, make a plan (trying to guess what henchie you'll get as a replacement, knowing it will not actually work). Ok, next fight loads. Ok, so it's an organized guild team. Well, we can... great. Now the warrior ragequit. So, we're a 5 man team, one of which is a henchie. Just great. Well, maybe the great community will be sporting. "Hey, we lost two to ragequits, maybe one of you might be sporting enough to sit out?" "lol, noobs! free fame!" Great. So, now I can try my best, or watch the team get steamroll... errr.... great. Our first death ragequit too. So much for actually using this rez signet... *shakes head* Too bad the other team still gets fame if your resign.


Yeah. Now, imagine that scenario playing out over and over for 6 hours. That was my day when I attempted to try out the new HA, before I got into this thread. If it sounds frustrating, that is because it is.

Then add in how bad the lag has been... missing most of the first engagement and just blindly hitting buttons and praying it works. Yeah. If they really wanted to balance, they'd find a way to slow everyone in a match down to the same speed.

I don't know. I still think a lot of this might be moot of they at least allowed you to display the rank title starting at rank 1, even if you had to wait every three for the emote. It would at least show people were trying.

Parker Bsb
08-02-2007, 18:09
Meh it happens to the best of us sometimes.

I suggest you check out this thread: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432953

It's also stickied at the top of the HA forum.

Back on topic now: I think the lack of DP on maps can make for some interesting come from behind victories - and truthfully I don't think this is a bad thing as it forces teams to stay on their game.

Kylden Ar
08-02-2007, 18:36
Meh it happens to the best of us sometimes.

I suggest you check out this thread: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432953

It's also stickied at the top of the HA forum.

Back on topic now: I think the lack of DP on maps can make for some interesting come from behind victories - and truthfully I don't think this is a bad thing as it forces teams to stay on their game.

I'd like to get to one of those maps. The no DP thing on AB makes me a little less afraid of engaging the enemy. :smiley:

Almas Darksoul
08-02-2007, 20:50
PvP guilds tend to be less likely to lose members than more casual guilds - the more interested in winning a player is, the less likely they are to stop playing. That said, this has the disadvantage of arrogance in players and ragequitting guilds which aren't "good enough" for certain people. And being harder to find.

Yeah, I think gimmicks will be back for 8v8. I also think spikes will be very popular - in fact, I've spent some time designing spikes myself. However, despite all this I think it's worth it for the originality. Much more original builds which still have the potential of working can be developed, and concepts which cannot be ran in 6v6 should work atleast to a limited degree in 8v8. Most notably, I'll say that Hex Builds and Condition Builds will function in the right hands in 8v8. Right now it takes so many character slots devoted to degenerating that killing is hard, but an additional 1-2 offensive characters really does help this. Having an extra monk also decreases the effectiveness of highly popular damage pressure builds in HA, as teams will have almost twice as much healing power.

It would be nice if 2 heroes per group were allowed with the change, though, if only to make fun-run groups easier to form

Edit (responding to post below):
What I'm saying is that the extra 1-2 offensive players will allow these pressure teams to have the extra killing power they need. For example, a hex build with heavy shutdown capabilities will be able to slide in a black lotus chain assassin who can spike down kills.
Damage pressure will still have an advantage, but not as much of one. I think.

That said the killcount maps are rather dodgy - but there are few original alternatives. Changing the point scoring to be related to health loss inflicted hurts spike builds a lot (which arguably isn't a bad thing). Testing altar map mechanics again could be interesting.

FarbrorVattenmelon
08-02-2007, 20:56
hexes and conditions still doesn't work (efficiently) due to the death count mode :/

Kylden Ar
09-02-2007, 03:28
So, I had some time to kill, so figured I'd hang out in HA AM 1 for my 15 minutes to see who might be recruiting.

I haven't even finished loading yet, and I get an invite to a party. So, I figure, what the heck, I take it.

Party forms pretty quick. Other than "We need good healing eh Monk?" and someone thinking my Ele could do spirit spam better than a Rit, no planning at all.

Yeah. But this is for fun right? Since there is no plan, I make some changes to my stock water build (the new Icy Prism is gold), and say I'm ready.

So, we enter battle. As usual, someone starts the timer before everyone is loaded. I charge in, making the best of it. First, maelstrom on the zaishen monks. Then a snare, then some water trident to keep em from running from the sins. All told, we still manage a 4% morale boost despite their best efforts to fail.

But that's not enough. So our monk starts chanting resign. About 5 times. Then he ragequits. He was the one chanting 'go go go go go go go' before we entered, with a glad title. Because he left, 2 others ragequit.

So, the other three of us decide to go ahead anyway. We'll get replacement henchies, right?

Next battle loads. Guild team. Great. Wait a minute... crap. We're now a 4 man team, because that one hero/hench limit apparently applies even if you lose team members in between zones. And we get the fighter. Great. Even better. Now we can charge to our doom.

So, local chat, "Hey guys. We had three ragequit, so we're a 3 man team with a henchie. Couple of you maybe want to sit out, make it fair?"

"lolz noobs!"
"free fame for us!"

:angry: I was not pleased.

But still, I fought. Any fame they get from me will be over my cold, rendered body.

Other people get fair sporting opponents. Do I... noooooo. :sad:

But the grind continues...

Almas Darksoul
09-02-2007, 09:12
Great. Wait a minute... crap. We're now a 4 man team, because that one hero/hench limit apparently applies even if you lose team members in between zones. And we get the fighter.


You will only get a henchman if the player leaves before the "next match" timer begins. This is the same as in RA/TA - except you get replacement players there instead. You can have 5 henchmen in your party if you so choose (although it requires having someone help you with zaishen).

CassiusDrehyg
09-02-2007, 09:21
If you think of playing HA in local districts, you are wasting your time. Proceed directly to international districts, and be discriminated against. Unless you're a Searing Flames ele though, you won't find a group that will actually get you fame, not that local district groups are any better mind.

Parker Bsb
09-02-2007, 13:55
The thing about 8v8 tho Almas, I doubt people will want to increase their healing power - now that killing is more of a factor than holding I'd expect to see 2 monk backlines still common (unless i'm misreading your post in which case oops)

Re Henchmen: Since it's back to 8v8 I'd expect the hench cap to be raised to 4 to be on par with GvG.


That said the killcount maps are rather dodgy - but there are few original alternatives. Changing the point scoring to be related to health loss inflicted hurts spike builds a lot (which arguably isn't a bad thing). Testing altar map mechanics again could be interesting.

Health loss seems like an interesting idea - altho I cant see why some team that can't get the kills but gets realllly close should be rewarded where another team that kills efficiently looses... IIRC the most damage done to the person within the last 10 seconds is awarded the kill so this point may be moot.

Ranger Nietzsche
09-02-2007, 17:16
the kill count system is really odd

for the moment life steal doesn't count.

hexes do but they count in weird ways.

Wuzzman
10-02-2007, 03:02
So, I had some time to kill, so figured I'd hang out in HA AM 1 for my 15 minutes to see who might be recruiting.

I haven't even finished loading yet, and I get an invite to a party. So, I figure, what the heck, I take it.

Party forms pretty quick. Other than "We need good healing eh Monk?" and someone thinking my Ele could do spirit spam better than a Rit, no planning at all.

Yeah. But this is for fun right? Since there is no plan, I make some changes to my stock water build (the new Icy Prism is gold), and say I'm ready.

So, we enter battle. As usual, someone starts the timer before everyone is loaded. I charge in, making the best of it. First, maelstrom on the zaishen monks. Then a snare, then some water trident to keep em from running from the sins. All told, we still manage a 4% morale boost despite their best efforts to fail.

But that's not enough. So our monk starts chanting resign. About 5 times. Then he ragequits. He was the one chanting 'go go go go go go go' before we entered, with a glad title. Because he left, 2 others ragequit.

So, the other three of us decide to go ahead anyway. We'll get replacement henchies, right?

Next battle loads. Guild team. Great. Wait a minute... crap. We're now a 4 man team, because that one hero/hench limit apparently applies even if you lose team members in between zones. And we get the fighter. Great. Even better. Now we can charge to our doom.

So, local chat, "Hey guys. We had three ragequit, so we're a 3 man team with a henchie. Couple of you maybe want to sit out, make it fair?"

"lolz noobs!"
"free fame for us!"

:angry: I was not pleased.

But still, I fought. Any fame they get from me will be over my cold, rendered body.

Other people get fair sporting opponents. Do I... noooooo. :sad:

But the grind continues...


wow that explains my HA run today exactly...grabbing a necro for blood spike I am...