Protection monk vs Resto Rit? [Archive]

Siako

28-01-2007, 17:52

In PvE a Retoration Ritualist can make a decent substitue for a Healing Monk, sacrificing greater reaction speed and possibly stronger heals for energy efficiency and the ability to heal multiple targets at once. A Protection Monk however, especially for PvP, far outclasses a single Restoration Ritualist.

Protection Monks have very little power (except for the recently added and frequently used elite Zealous Benediction) in terms of direct healing, relying on Divine Favor, possibly Divine Boon, and quite frequently Healing line spells such as Gift of Health or Infuse Health to handle large chunks of damage. Instead, Protection skills are known for their ability to reduce the amount of damage an ally takes. Spells such as Protective Spirit can make spikes far more managable, while spells such as Shield of Absorption can quickly shut down various forms of pressure damage. Healing for small amounts of health but preventing large amounts of damage allows you to stay ahead of your enemies.

Casting speed, additionally, is very important in PvP. Many spells in the Protection Line activate in less than a second. The Restoration Ritualist, though it has powerful heals for the energy spent, takes much longer to respond to a threat. Combined with their decreased ability to prevent damage, Restoration Ritualists will find themselves working much harder than a Protection Monk to keep an ally alive. Furthermore, longer cast times means easier interrupts and more damaged received that could be avoided by moving.

Finally, Restoration Ritualists are excellent endurance healers, yet there are nonetheless many ways for a Monk to manage their own energy. Thus, even if the Ritualist does a better job at healing per energy spent a Monk can still manage with adequate energy efficiency and greater versatility.

neoflame

28-01-2007, 18:43

The prot line is generally acknowledged as being one of the most important to game balance in the game. Unfortunately, Nightfall brought us Grenth dervishes.

Lunari

28-01-2007, 19:38

The prot line is generally acknowledged as being one of the most important to game balance in the game. Unfortunately, Nightfall brought us Grenth dervishes.

Yea so true :sad:

Bloody Samuel

29-01-2007, 16:38

Protection Monks have very little power (except for the recently added and frequently used elite Zealous Benediction) in terms of direct healing, relying on Divine Favor, possibly Divine Boon, and quite frequently Healing line spells such as Gift of Health or Infuse Health to handle large chunks of damage. Instead, Protection skills are known for their ability to reduce the amount of damage an ally takes. Spells such as Protective Spirit can make spikes far more managable, while spells such as Shield of Absorption can quickly shut down various forms of pressure damage. Healing for small amounts of health but preventing large amounts of damage allows you to stay ahead of your enemies.

While everything you say is correct, in High level PVP you do not make a prot bar without gift of health unless you are using zealous benediction. It is a godly skill and if you do leave it off your bar you probably havent played much.

ump

29-01-2007, 20:26

Monks go protection in GvG because the "healer" is the flag runner using Heal Party or Light of Deliverance. Protection offers far more utility than a healer (such as condition removal, hex removal, spike protection, pressure protection, as well as the "heals" already mentioned).

ChaosTrance

29-01-2007, 22:05

Antmf, please stop multiple posting for quetions, when you could use the same thread more than once. Its annoying me.

Anyhow, Prot monks are more survivable than Rits, for one thing. Damage reduction. With prot spirit You can keep damage on partymembers down to an easily healable level. You can stop spikes before they even start by pre-protting, and SoA stops sin spikes in their tracks. Its also a very good spell when your being melee-trained, as damage quickly drops to 0 :P Its fun :D. Also, the prot monk is alot more versatile than the resto rit, and is able to support a team with much less Energy needed, due to the little amount of damage that your actually taking :D.

So as was said in the Rit forum already, (in your own post which you could have read),

Prot Monks > Resto Rits for Survivability.

Vexed Arcanist

29-01-2007, 22:23

This thread should be closed since the same topic is going on in the Ritualist forum and seems to be just fueling a fire.

Antmf

30-01-2007, 06:30

This thread should be closed since the same topic is going on in the Ritualist forum and seems to be just fueling a fire.

How is wanting to seek knowledge from both experienced monks and experienced rits fueling a fire? I like to hear from both sides so I can form my own opinion after hearing others. Sorry if I insulted anyone or if my question was a waste of anyone's time. As for the people that did reply with knowledgeable answers I greatly appreciate it and I offer my gratitude.

Shrakzara

30-01-2007, 14:35

It should be noted that mitigating damage is better than covering up afterwards. Big spike damage kills a character before someone can heal them. Big spike damage on a protected character is significantly reduced to a scratch, so healing them becomes very easy.

Chilblains, Lingering Curse, etc. can kill a protective monk, as enchantment stripping is very strong. A communion ritualist, however can protect without such weaknesses (they have other weaknesses instead).

Defense ignoring damage (hexes, conditions, certain spells) can eat through a protective monk's abilities. Hexes and conditions can make a protective monk really powerful too, but interupts tend to kill monks and their parties. Its a bit harder to interupt a Ritualist (but it can be done - Binding Rituals are not spells).

I don't know about PvP, but in PvE, Protection Monks are better, I think.

rentauri

30-01-2007, 15:15

How is wanting to seek knowledge from both experienced monks and experienced rits fueling a fire? I like to hear from both sides so I can form my own opinion after hearing others.

Because in that thread you posted in the Rit Forum many were saying the while Resto Rits make better healers compared to the Healing Monks (which can be argued here and there) they were all pretty much argeeing that Protection Monks are better. This thread is saying the same thing.

As it has been stated (both there and here) Protection Monks are better simply because of the damage they can prevent, the little they can heal and the other things they can bring to bear. Also they can invest 6-8 in Gift of Health and get an awesome healing spell with no real negative effect.

Strangely enough however while the Protect Monk is better often when it comes to heros the Healing Monk Hero seems to be more effective and better at there job then the Protection Monk Hero.

Tarug

30-01-2007, 15:57

Strangely enough however while the Protect Monk is better often when it comes to heros the Healing Monk Hero seems to be more effective and better at there job then the Protection Monk Hero.

That's because to prot a player has to use his brains, something heroes seem to lack.:tongue:

Different prot skills are used in very specific situations, and can be useless if not used correctly. (when a target is about to take a huge one time dmg, RoF is great, while SoA is useless. OTOH, while taking pressure from lots of attacks causing small dmg, SoA is wonderful, while RoF is not. Heroes can't distinguish these situations to use the best skill). Besides that, Heroes often use prot skills just to fill the red bar (I'm tired of seeing Tahlk using Protective Spirit to heal 40 from DF:sad:). As for healing, it's usually not as complicate - bars go down, bars go up... glimmer, orison or whatever. Heroes might not use the best healing spell every time, but when they mess up, it usually is not as bad as when they mess up with prot spells.

TLLOTS

30-01-2007, 22:27

That's because to prot a player has to use his brains, something heroes seem to lack.:tongue:

Different prot skills are used in very specific situations, and can be useless if not used correctly. (when a target is about to take a huge one time dmg, RoF is great, while SoA is useless. OTOH, while taking pressure from lots of attacks causing small dmg, SoA is wonderful, while RoF is not. Heroes can't distinguish these situations to use the best skill). Besides that, Heroes often use prot skills just to fill the red bar (I'm tired of seeing Tahlk using Protective Spirit to heal 40 from DF:sad:). As for healing, it's usually not as complicate - bars go down, bars go up... glimmer, orison or whatever. Heroes might not use the best healing spell every time, but when they mess up, it usually is not as bad as when they mess up with prot spells.
That's true, though I've found running my heroes as boon/prot monks works very effectively. Of course you still shouldn't give them any remotely expensive spells like Protective Spirit, but Reversal of Fortune and Guardian they use fairly well.

HomelessBob

12-02-2007, 18:37

I'll tell you it's 10times easier interrupting a healing rit than a prot monk. My mesmer eats healing rits for breakfast.

windcaller

12-02-2007, 20:14

I'll tell you it's 10times easier interrupting a healing rit than a prot monk. My mesmer eats healing rits for breakfast.

As well as my mesmer eats Healing Monks for dinner. Also BL monks, ZB monks, etc.

The difference is in casting time. However a rit can handle pressure alot better than a Prot monk, who focuses mainly on damage prevention.

oles

12-02-2007, 20:22

As well as my mesmer eats Healing Monks for dinner. Also BL monks, ZB monks, etc.

The difference is in casting time. However a rit can handle pressure alot better than a Prot monk, who focuses mainly on damage prevention.

Hahaha. And that's, of course, why all you see is healing rits in GvG.

themagicmoedee

12-02-2007, 20:47

Restoration Ritualists get a bad rap. If you believe the prevalent viewpoint, they're slow, inept bumblers that don't quite get the job done in any situation. As a practical matter, there are several builds that compete favorably as the middle-ground compromise between the speed, effectiveness, and general energy inefficiency of a Protection Monk (because much of the benefit you derive from Protection skills that don't strip hexes and conditions is based on other people doing stuff to the target you throw your stuff at, which means that, theoretically, if a team could see who you were throwing your Protective Spirit on, they could render you a much less relevant actor) and the raw massive healing power of a Healing Prayers Monk.

A properly outfitted Restoration Ritualist has at least three significant heals available that fire in less than one second (Mend Body and Soul, Wielder's Boon, and Spirit Transfer) and several unstrippable protective/healing enchantments. The catch is that he can't stack those enchants and he's not as quick with them as the Protection Monk. As far as energy goes, I've never played any character that was as solid as my Ritualist, but is that worth trading for casting time when there are so many ways to supplement energy management?

PvE, I've played Protection Monk (both Zealous Benediction and Divert Hexes), and I honestly prefer my Restoration Ritualist. It's just more fun for me, I can do a bigger variety of things, and I'm itching to try out my new and improved Spirit Light Weapon to see if it went from terrible to amazing. In previous chapters I also noticed a lot less in terms of coordinated spike damage and the Ritualist's superior party-wide anti-pressure skills were useful. Ask me in a couple of weeks whether that's still the case - my Ritualist will be taking the trip over to Elona this Wednesday, and I just finished with my Monk.

PvP - there's not a question. You have to have at least one Protection Monk in the party. Period. For the second Monk, I'd be tempted to take a Rt/Mo with Generous was Tsungrai and Infuse Health and a number of anti-pressure skills, though. But you can't not have the Protection Monk.

This is really more of an apples and pomegranates debate, though. The two are sort of related in that a few of the Ritualist's weapon spells emulate elite Protection enchantments, but otherwise they don't play the same game. The Ritualist is essentially reactive and the Protection Monk is essentially proactive. Totally different play styles.

WingspanTT

12-02-2007, 21:47

I think magicmoedee pretty much summed it up

resto can't replace prot.

can resto replace healing? maybe

personally I think prot + resto is better than prot x 2 or prot + healing, especialy since some resto weapons can prot without being overlapping with the other healer's enchants

also, spirit transfer > infuse

Corporeal Ghost

12-02-2007, 22:42

A properly outfitted Restoration Ritualist has at least three significant heals available that fire in less than one second (Mend Body and Soul, Wielder's Boon, and Spirit Transfer) and several unstrippable protective/healing enchantments. The catch is that he can't stack those enchants and he's not as quick with them as the Protection Monk. As far as energy goes, I've never played any character that was as solid as my Ritualist, but is that worth trading for casting time when there are so many ways to supplement energy management?

There's the crux of the problem. For an above average Monk, the answer is, quite simply, no. There are VERY few places upper-end Monks have any kind of energy issues in PvE. Even if a Ritualist is more energy efficient, if the Monks energy never hits zero, there's not really a question of which is overall more efficient, is there?

But that's not to say Ritualists are useless. They're quite useful. In fact, I'd wager to say they're most useful in the hands of the above capable Monk. Given the choice, however, I'll take the Monk. I was experimenting with a Restoration/Protection split Ritualist primary before my computer died. I'll let you know how that goes.

--me

windcaller

13-02-2007, 12:47

Hahaha. And that's, of course, why all you see is healing rits in GvG.

that's because some are narrow minded and don't see the potential of a new proffession unless they see numbers floating. (ex. mesmer, which isn't new at all ^^ )

i suspect you never played a rit. How sad ;)

Bloody Samuel

13-02-2007, 13:18

windcaller

13-02-2007, 16:35

When you see, Team everfrost clan detained virtual dragons running restoration ritualists instead of prot monks then you can say that they are viable, Since it is certain that this will never happen as these guilds have a characterisitc of intelligence and high level play experience you can stop asking these questions.

In pve you can run whatever.

And this is why people copy builds and just mimmick the top guilds. this is what shows that most players don't have a personality of their own, they just copy+paste builds.

Ever thought of testing something and not doing something just because *the top guilds do it*? Ever thought of trying a build that just popped into your mind even though *none of the top guilds use it*?

FYI i'm not interested in what the *top* guilds are using. I found a build that works and i enjoy using it, so i go and use it. Trying to be a minion of, let's say, PnH, doesn't make anyone 'cooler' or 'leeter'.

In my GvG experience (and i gvg'ed alot) i noticed that Rits can handle pressure alot better than monks. My rits never complained about having energy issues, while i sometimes heard the monks saying 'retreat for a bit need some regen'.

themagicmoedee

13-02-2007, 21:27

There's the crux of the problem. For an above average Monk, the answer is, quite simply, no. There are VERY few places upper-end Monks have any kind of energy issues in PvE. Even if a Ritualist is more energy efficient, if the Monks energy never hits zero, there's not really a question of which is overall more efficient, is there?

But that's not to say Ritualists are useless. They're quite useful. In fact, I'd wager to say they're most useful in the hands of the above capable Monk. Given the choice, however, I'll take the Monk. I was experimenting with a Restoration/Protection split Ritualist primary before my computer died. I'll let you know how that goes.

--me

Yeah, but are we talking Healing Prayers or Protection Prayers? Very different critters. I was on the line for energy going both ways, but just trying to heal over everything was a LOT harder with a Healing Monk (who gets virtually nothing but healing) versus my Ritualist at end-game Cantha (who usually gets some extra cheese with his heals). I'll be honest and say I have no idea how well an elite Ritualist would play against an elite Monk, because how many people do you know that do nothing but play Ritualist in high end GvG and Halls matches? And do it well, mind you. They've been red-headed stepchildren since their advent, and I kind of look on anything that compares the skill of competing "elite" players in each discipline with a jaundiced eye.

I personally prefer Healing/Restoration for a Rit, though. Of course, I haven't played with my Rit much in terms of protection since they made me less effective than a Protection Monk (by which I mean the Ritual Lord build, which totally stomped all over most Protection Monks in terms of effectiveness, if only because with all of three skills you could Shielding Hands/Protective Spirit every party member and never worry about energy - probably good that that got fixed), but back then, I just didn't see many synergies, whereas the Generous/Infuse spike is great for hybrid spike/pressure healing support. But do let me know how that works. I start back again on Wednesday, and I'm always interested to try something new with my Rit.

X H K

14-02-2007, 03:05

a protection monk overcomes a restoration rt. a Rt doesn't have many defense skills.(Some of them rely on the Communing line.) Due to the usefulness of ZB, a restoration rt doesn't have many spike heals.

DreamStealer

14-02-2007, 03:41

How is wanting to seek knowledge from both experienced monks and experienced rits fueling a fire? I like to hear from both sides so I can form my own opinion after hearing others. Sorry if I insulted anyone or if my question was a waste of anyone's time. As for the people that did reply with knowledgeable answers I greatly appreciate it and I offer my gratitude.

It's really not as if just monk-purists go here, and just rit-purists go to th rit forums. Most people check a little bit of everywhere, and when you're arguing the same thing, it's a waste of people's time.

Bloody Samuel

18-02-2007, 05:12

FYI i'm not interested in what the *top* guilds are using. I found a build that works and i enjoy using it, so i go and use it. Trying to be a minion of, let's say, PnH, doesn't make anyone 'cooler' or 'leeter'.

This is equivalent to not listening to your teacher in school and then failing the exam. The problem is a lot of people just refuse to accept things about the game that the top guilds and players have known for ages.

Protection prayers having no viable alternative for coping with the many different forms of damage being used in the game is a known fact. Restoration is not anywhere near good eneogh.

In my GvG experience (and i gvg'ed alot) i noticed that Rits can handle pressure alot better than monks. My rits never complained about having energy issues, while i sometimes heard the monks saying 'retreat for a bit need some regen'.

In my GVG experience which is top 20 and I am telling you that Restore rits are useless outside of
1. NR/Tranq builds,
2. Ritualist Spike Gimmick builds,
3.Where their is a midline rit to keep up spirits as well. When you do the last in a balanced build you lose on utility.

Rits never running out of energy?
So how did you lose?
I wonder why the best teams dont use these things that dont run out of energy, hardly anything to do with the class not being good eneogh.

Joe

windcaller

18-02-2007, 07:19

Protection prayers having no viable alternative for coping with the many different forms of damage being used in the game is a known fact. Restoration is not anywhere near good eneogh.

this is the equivalent of not looking outside of the box. Rits can deal with many forms of damage. Apparently you never played the proffession. I wonder how can you give feedback if you don't know what the spells do? o.o'

In my GVG experience which is top 20 and I am telling you that Restore rits are useless outside of
1. NR/Tranq builds,
2. Ritualist Spike Gimmick builds,
3.Where their is a midline rit to keep up spirits as well. When you do the last in a balanced build you lose on utility.

rits are better because they need only 1 attribute line for healing, rest is for e-management / whatever you'd like.

Rits never running out of energy?
So how did you lose?
I wonder why the best teams dont use these things that dont run out of energy, hardly anything to do with the class not being good eneogh.

Joe

*Yes, some rit build never run out of energy. Check the rit forum for that.

*You're putting the 'lose' condition on 2 players of the whole team. Must i remind you that the GvG team has 8 members?

*The best teams don't use new classes alot because they are used to the old ones. And they're not forced to learn something new. If ANet nerfed the monk, i'm sure we'll see more rits in GvG.

Why would i learn extra advanced math if i'm not going to use it? Same applies to some GvG veterans.

And some of these 'veterans' are stuck with their number popping issues. A rit doesn't pop that many numbers as a monk, but clearly you fail to see its advantages.

What are these advantages?

For example:
*unstripable buffs (i.e.:weapon spells, items)
*spirits. Party wide mass buffs/heals/protection
*Resto rit spells unconditionally heal for alot more than monk spells.
*Class-specific e-management. A rit doesn't have to go /e or /me for e-management.

And you're failing to see that each proffession has its own place in this game. Peoaple are just hesitant to try something new. Which is bad.

A pure prot monk will never save the party. I think tht you're trying to say that some monk builds, which include protection prayers, are better than some rit builds on restoration. If this is the case, then i agree.

However, if you're saying pure prot > resto rit, i'll end up laughing like mad.

:smiley:

Bloody Samuel

19-02-2007, 01:49

rits are better because they need only 1 attribute line for healing, rest is for e-management / whatever you'd like.

The problem is bolded out. Healing sucking is the problem.

*You're putting the 'lose' condition on 2 players of the whole team. Must i remind you that the GvG team has 8 members?

I didnt say that but when your backline doesnt run out of energy you can go "full" offence and break the other team. If you watch obs mode you will regularly see top guilds retreating for a bit before they make a push.

This regens the energy of the whole team and allows the Monks more energy to cope with the increased damage from losing damage mitigation from your team making a push rather than playing "Control".

*The best teams don't use new classes alot because they are used to the old ones. And they're not forced to learn something new. If ANet nerfed the monk, i'm sure we'll see more rits in GvG.

I am sorry but that is completely incorrect. You see plenty of assasins, dervishes in observer mode and while Paragon is not so common I know that OUT runs one in their pressure build.

Why would i learn extra advanced math if i'm not going to use it? Same applies to some GvG veterans.

And some of these 'veterans' are stuck with their number popping issues. A rit doesn't pop that many numbers as a monk, but clearly you fail to see its advantages.

Why would you learn more about the game? To win? To Not Suck?

What are these advantages?

For example:
*unstripable buffs (i.e.:weapon spells, items)
*spirits. Party wide mass buffs/heals/protection
*Resto rit spells unconditionally heal for alot more than monk spells.
*Class-specific e-management. A rit doesn't have to go /e or /me for e-management.

Some of this is why Clan Detained ran a single Ritualist as part of their Split Build. Called "Eurosplit". And By the way this was not as a replacement for their 2 Monks.

And you're failing to see that each proffession has its own place in this game. Peoaple are just hesitant to try something new. Which is bad.

The ritualist is not a replacement for a Protection Monk with ZB or carrying Gift of health Ever.

A pure prot monk will never save the party. I think tht you're trying to say that some monk builds, which include protection prayers, are better than some rit builds on restoration. If this is the case, then i agree.

However, if you're saying pure prot > resto rit, i'll end up laughing like mad.

:smiley:

Yes I am saying that Pure Prot Monks are better than restore rits by far. They now have zealous Benediction in that line So they can max divine and Prot and be much better. Then when they go secondary sin/wa/me they are almost infinitly superior for High level GVG.

Joe

windcaller

19-02-2007, 15:04

Joe

You're too stubborn to get anything enter your brain. So i'll stop. I'm sorry i waisted your time trying to make you think wider.

Happy monking,

Windcaller.

Almas Darksoul

19-02-2007, 15:43

Arrogance is never a good thing.
(Second Edit:

I know more about the game than you. You could have learned a lot from my posts but you didnt.
Please pay particular attention to Almas post just above mine.
I found that kinda funny.)
Ritualists can usually offer up more burst healing power than a healing monk. This is true - skills such as Mend Body and Soul give exceptional healing while also having minor utility. However, the Restoration lines lacks a reliable "Infuse Health" - the closest alternative being Spirit Transfer, which not only heals for less, but is reliant on the team allowing you to have surving spirits. Also, the skills Heal Party and Light of Deliverance are amazingly energy efficient and heal for large amounts - the Ritualist has no effective equivalent to this.

Ritualists have protection skills, too, and some of these dwarf their protection prayers counterparts. Weapon of Warding is a fair bit stronger than Guardian under most circumstances (although Guardian itself is rarely used), and Weapon of Shadow can be very useful against warrior trains (although these are dying out with the weakening to Avatar of Grenth).

However, in high level PvP (which is what a lot of the argument in this thread has become centered around), the Protection skills used by monks fill a very specific role. Protection/Favor hybrid monks are expected to be capable of mitigating spike damage to reasonable levels, performing minor healing, surviving by themselves in a split or against a gank and removing painful conditions or hexes (dependant on the metagame). The skill bar of this monk has been altered slowly, and had occaisional large-scale morphs created by innovative teams.

The main reason why the ritualist is unpopular is that he is ill-equipped to fill many of these roles.
He cannot mitigate spike damage with skills such as Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond (which between them can even make some damage spikes "heal" the target) - a large amount of the damage prevention on the Restoration Ritualist is in anti-warrior forms described above. The closest a Ritualist can come is Shelter, which is expensive, weak, and vulnerable not only to interrupts but rapid killing.
The ritualist also lacks the survivability to play alone. Even the monk requires a secondary for these defensive purposes, using skills such as Return or Soldier's Stance. Attempting to point-heal damage is woefully inefficient compared to avoiding it, or even reducing it.
Next, the Ritualist is completely unable to remove hexes from other players, not to mention weak at removing conditions. Skills such as Resilient Weapon, while undeniably effective against hex-pressure skills such as Conjure Phantasm, do very little to null the damage caused by Spoil Victor or even Empathy. Mend Body and Soul is an unreliable condition removal - spirits can rarely be kept alive long save in Spirit Spam builds, which are generally gimmicky and thus weak to splits and skill-counters. The alternative, Weapon of Remedy, is elite and requires activity on the part of the enemy to trigger. While this isn't always an issue, it seriously reduces the effectiveness of the Ritualist in Adrenaline Spike builds, where monks are often the players removing conditions from warriors immediately before a spike (as the /mo's are often busy preparing with skills such as Diversion), and the Warrior will unlikely be targetted again before spiking. Wielder's Remedy/Vengeful Weapon is a workaround to perform this function, but Vengeful Weapon is generally weak, and the combo is countered easily by enchantment removal.

I believe that the reasons above are evidence enough for few teams to seriously consider a Ritualist in GvG as a replacement for a monk-slot. To perform 8v8 tasks well, they would have to carry several monk skills to help in damage mitigation and condition or hex removal (the most likely being Protective Spirit and Dismiss Condition). However, this then means they cannot take a secondary which supports their own defense - so they become weak in the split. To slide them into a team build, you would have to customize a fair amount of the build around them, for example, including a split which could play very defensively and having an off-monk hex removal (and preferably an infuse). This would generally make it weak in itself as it would reduce the offense of your team significantly, for only the benefit of slightly improved single-target healing power.

I was planning on discussing Heroes' Ascent too, where Restoration is certainly a lot more viable (and indeed was, especially during the days of holding). But I'm bored now.

Edit: One thing I'm not too bored to say - the fact that Restoration is "both" healing and protection is both a gift and a curse to the ritualist. While it makes them stronger for playing when they aren't in danger, it means that they miss out on all the juicy specialist skills that monks get. The ritualist can perform the basic functions of both healing and protection very effectively, but ultimately these lines are defined by a few key skills - Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Shielding Hands, Infuse Health, Heal Party etc.

Bloody Samuel

19-02-2007, 16:21

You're too stubborn to get anything enter your brain. So i'll stop. I'm sorry i waisted your time trying to make you think wider.

Happy monking,

Windcaller.

You call me stubborn?

I know more about the game than you. You could have learned a lot from my posts but you didnt.

Please pay particular attention to Almas post just above mine. It is a nice summary of why I am correct.

Joe

WingspanTT

19-02-2007, 16:51

I believe Almas is correct, however there are a couple points I'd like to discuss:

Arrogance is never a good thing.
However, the Restoration lines lacks a reliable "Infuse Health" - the closest alternative being Spirit Transfer, which not only heals for less, but is reliant on the team allowing you to have surving spirits.

This statement makes it look so black and white, when in reality we must also remember that Infuse is also reliant on the infuser having enough life to infuse, that the infuser must recover the life lost (meaning infuse costs more than jusst 10e), and that SXfer range is gigantic, even far outside of earshot.

Also, the skills Heal Party and Light of Deliverance are amazingly energy efficient and heal for large amounts - the Ritualist has no effective equivalent to this.

To be fair, it is not like Monks are the ones casting Heal Party 90% of the time anyway, so I think it's a moot point.

The rest I think is a fair assessment or, at least, could be tested.

Almas Darksoul

19-02-2007, 17:04

Eh, reasonable points. I think it is still hard to disagree that Spirit Transfer is inferior to Infuse though, even if they aren't ridiculously far apart on scales of how good each is.

With Heal Party I was commenting more on HA, but your point is still valid. Even so, both of these matters are regarding the Healing component of the monk, which is aside from what the majority of my points were about.

WingspanTT

19-02-2007, 17:08

True, but I think it is important about the context in which HP is being used. Because Life is technically more healing per point, you could say it is best, since a Rit that just echo chains Life all over the map (outside of each one's range obviously) would give giant healing to the team... but this would be ridiculous.

Bloody Samuel

19-02-2007, 18:08

Life is not to be mentioned in the same sentence as "is as good as" or "is best" and "Light of Deliverence and Heal Party".

Because that would be wrong.

WingspanTT

19-02-2007, 18:15

windcaller

19-02-2007, 20:42

Please pay particular attention to Almas post just above mine. It is a nice summary of why I am correct.

Joe

Oh, that's funny, i read his post and it seems like we agree on some things. And no. You're not correct :laughing:

Arrogance is never a good thing.

yup. We're on the same brainwave.

And i agree with alot of things, but not all. The exceptions were raised above so it's unnecessary for me to re-post them.

A small addition: rits can solo heal. I won 30 matches in a row in RA by being the only healer in the team. Survived assassin spike, warr spike, ele spike...and just with resto skills. Even laughed in the face of a mesmer who tried to drain me. And a rt/mo with extra condition removal = gg!

And just because you think you're good, that doesn't mean you really are. You don't know who i am, i don't know who you are. So making false assumptions just by judging a personal opinion is not that good.

Kid, in real life, a thing is totally different in its essence from what it appears to be.

I know more about the game than you. You could have learned a lot from my posts but you didnt.

well that bourght a tear of laughter into my eye. Kudos! I played this game since it appeared...well...unnecesary details i might add.

And how do you know how much I know about the game? What? You're a telepath now? :huh: :laughing:

Anyways, i believe all aspects of the monk/rit relation were pretty much summed up.

I believe all of us favor one over the other, so trying to make it black or white doesn't help alot.

Grey is the key, imo.

skaspaakssa

20-02-2007, 03:04

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned at all (didn't read quite everything though), is that there's such thing as a secondary! So many of the things that a restoration ritualist lacks, they can easily get max prot and take those skills (i.e. Protective Spirit, hex removal, unconditional condition removal). A Rt/Mo can arguably use Infuse Health better than a Monk, if using Generous was Tsungrai, and Protective was Kaolai is somewhat of a replacement for LoD (do Monks really use Heal Party?) You can't really do all of that one on character though... You do also lose the self-survival skills that Monks often get from their secondary, but I've been wondering are they really that necessary? I've seen some Monks on obs mode going /E for GoLE (well I didn't seen anything else).

By the way, I have barely any experience in GvG, so this is mostly in theory... but if you're going to tell me I'm wrong somewhere please at least tell me why!

Bloody Samuel

20-02-2007, 08:46

A small addition: rits can solo heal. I won 30 matches in a row in RA by being the only healer in the team. Survived assassin spike, warr spike, ele spike...and just with resto skills. Even laughed in the face of a mesmer who tried to drain me. And a rt/mo with extra condition removal = gg!

The fact that you mention RA as support for your argument. Nobody spikes in RA. A single assasin unloading his combo in RA is not a "Spike". Nor is a Warrior unloading his adrenaline a "spike". The fact that you think spikes exist in RA does not bode well from your post.

And just because you think you're good, that doesn't mean you really are. You don't know who i am, i don't know who you are. So making false assumptions just by judging a personal opinion is not that good.

I didnt say I was "good". I said I knew more about the game than you. Considering you think that restoration ritualists compare to Monks with Protection skills, Hex removal and some secondary stances for protection against hexes/melee shows that you dont know some of the fundamental class and skill principles. I could be horrible at the game but I am still correct.

Kid, in real life, a thing is totally different in its essence from what it appears to be.

You dont know that I am a Kid. And your next statement is not always True. A thing can most certainly be in its essence what it appears to be. So dont try to appear smart by saying something philosophical.

And how do you know how much I know about the game? What? You're a telepath now? :huh: :laughing:

Lets See.

The best teams don't use new classes alot because they are used to the old ones. And they're not forced to learn something new. If ANet nerfed the monk, i'm sure we'll see more rits in GvG.

This shows that you dont know anything about what the top teams use. The fact that you think the top guilds dont want to learn anything new is also something that is questionable.

rits are better because they need only 1 attribute line for healing, rest is for e-management / whatever you'd like.

The next fact is that you think only needing one line for healing makes them comparable to a protection monk with a gift or a zealous benediction

A rit can handle pressure alot better than a Prot monk, who focuses mainly on damage prevention.

This is another thing that is a bit odd. A reasonable pressure team will output a godly amount of damage that cant be "Healed". It is why the Healing line is not really that good. It is a fact that protection is better than healing at coping with damage because as in real life "prevention" is better than a "cure".

This fact has been known by the high level community for a long time. Refusing to learn from the players in the game who are much better than you at it is illogical. Especially when you accuse them of not wanting to learn see above nice quote. If I were you I would be pretty :embarassed:

Those people who dont know the answer to the question "restore rit vs prot monk" will know who is correct and who is not. That is all that really matters.

Bloody Samuel

20-02-2007, 08:57

Samuel, your post is ignorant, especially compared to some wonderful posts here by other members.

Others: "skill X is better than skill Y because reason Z"

You: "skill X sucks. skill Y rules."

Give me a break. At least put up some kind of argument. You might even be right!

1. Heal Party and Light of Deliverance can be used when you need it. Life is delayed for 20 seconds.
2. Heal Party and Light of Deliverance have 2 second and 5 second recharges. This means that they can be used a lot more than life "when really needed".

Those two reasons are eneogh really. Crunching the numbers is not necessary. "When needed" or "on demand" is key really.

Joe

Tristan Chapin

20-02-2007, 10:25

Windcaller I admire your persistence in trying unorthodox stuff for a GvG backline, but I side with Bloody Samuel. There's no substitute for a prot monk in GvG. Resto rits are only viable in a build that has high internal synergy. In some builds they can be quite powerful. But by contrast, all of a prot monk's assets are available on-demand. This makes him more mobile on the field, more adaptable to the enemy front line, and more free from contingencies like spirits and reliance on his teammates' activity. No matter what's transpiring, a prot monk is always a threat, as such. Whereas a rit without his party's build cannot do much.

windcaller

20-02-2007, 14:10

Windcaller I admire your persistence in trying unorthodox stuff for a GvG backline

kudos.

but I side with Bloody Samuel. There's no substitute for a prot monk in GvG. Resto rits are only viable in a build that has high internal synergy. In some builds they can be quite powerful. But by contrast, all of a prot monk's assets are available on-demand. This makes him more mobile on the field, more adaptable to the enemy front line, and more free from contingencies like spirits and reliance on his teammates' activity. No matter what's transpiring, a prot monk is always a threat, as such. Whereas a rit without his party's build cannot do much.

i know. But it is possible for a rit to out-do a monk in GvG.

The fact that you mention RA as support for your argument. Nobody spikes in RA. A single assasin unloading his combo in RA is not a "Spike". Nor is a Warrior unloading his adrenaline a "spike". The fact that you think spikes exist in RA does not bode well from your post.

3 assassins who unload their combos is not considered a spike? I didn't know that. What is a spike then :fortuneteller:

P.S.: i am sarcastic about the spike. :sarcasmalert:

WingspanTT

20-02-2007, 15:23

1. Heal Party and Light of Deliverance can be used when you need it. Life is delayed for 20 seconds.
2. Heal Party and Light of Deliverance have 2 second and 5 second recharges. This means that they can be used a lot more than life "when really needed".

Those two reasons are eneogh really. Crunching the numbers is not necessary. "When needed" or "on demand" is key really.

Joe

Thank you, I agree.

Of course you can always "blow up" life, but that's a differnt story. More healing but obviously still more conditional. Likewise you could run Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting to recast life before the timer expires, to do a smaller (50-100) heal every 8-10 seconds. But now we are in "let's make a build" territory that is not necessary in this thread.

themagicmoedee

20-02-2007, 20:56

Are we still having this discussion? Really?

I think we can all agree that unless and until something is done to make Shelter and Union more viable, you'll always need a Protection Monk. That's just the end. You don't have another workable option that can reduce damage as effectively. You can bend over backwards and maybe keep Shelter up about 1/2 to 2/3 of the time and then you might be competing with a Protection Monk on a pure volume scale, but you're essentially spending your whole bar at that point to put a very fragile Protective Spirit on everybody.

In terms of healing, seriously - take a look at the total volume and tell me that the Ritualist isn't at least in the game against a Monk. Not that it really matters, because I don't see that many healers in average GvG that aren't dedicated mostly to Infuse Health (and a Ritualist really does do that better). When operating with a Protection Monk who can prevent spikes, possibly while using an Infuse Health build himself (for that quick targeted heal), in my personal experience in PvE, with lots of angry people throwing general pressure at the party, I had an easier time and provided better healing volume to the party with a Ritualist. You need somebody to help cover spikes. That's a given. But I would consider the competition a wash.

Now, I've played both. I just finished up main line work with my Monk for now (though I will be doing quests with him for a while, I certainly won't be going to PvP because I am so terribly tired of being the Monk) and I'm getting back to my Ritualist. So these are my impressions from some PvP and a lot more PvE. But this is what I've actually observed from behind the controls of each.

Bloody Samuel

20-02-2007, 22:02

But it is possible for a rit to out-do a monk in GvG

Yes it is possible.

I noted situations where this could be true.

1. Gimmick Natures Renewal Tranquility builds.
2. Gimmick Ritualist Spike Builds.
3. Builds with more than one ritualist in a balanced build including shelter and union on a guy who can keep it up because you will not go far w/o something comparable to Prot Spirit. Though you will die quickly w/o shelter up or at least union.

Joe

WingspanTT

20-02-2007, 22:17

I also wanted to mention this:

It seems like every discussion about Rit v Monk comes down to GvG, always ALWAYS. What are the opinions of the posters here of Rit v Monk in RA/TA/HA/HB/AB, in terms of just Resto vs Prot?

I am about to leave work so I can't type something up right now, I'll throw my 2 cents in later.

windcaller

21-02-2007, 06:26

Yes it is possible.

I noted situations where this could be true.

1. Gimmick Natures Renewal Tranquility builds.
2. Gimmick Ritualist Spike Builds.
3. Builds with more than one ritualist in a balanced build including shelter and union on a guy who can keep it up because you will not go far w/o something comparable to Prot Spirit. Though you will die quickly w/o shelter up or at least union.

Joe

On my word! So much sutbborness and narrowness in only one person! You are something really rare, indeed.

Just make a frikkin ritualist and see what's it capable of!

Oh, let me guess, you also think mesmers are overpowered.

I give up trying to convince you that there are more than 6 proffessions in the game.

/over_and_out

EDIT: on the bright side, you should really stick to your monk! really. The more the Rit is unpopular the bigger the number of buffs it gets.

Cheers.

Vexenna

21-02-2007, 08:38

One thing I should note about how capable ritualists are- last night a group of my guildies practiced coordinating some kind of pvp spike they were working on, and so i offered to go in a scrimmage against them, just me and my spirits. I- alone, with Shelter, Union, Displacement and Life (NO HEAL SPELLS, other than the heal that life does), could not be killed by four people spiking me. They finally killed me when VoD mode started and my health was lowered. So yeah.

Bloody Samuel

21-02-2007, 11:17

Just make a frikkin ritualist and see what's it capable of!

Oh, let me guess, you also think mesmers are overpowered.

I give up trying to convince you that there are more than 6 proffessions in the game.

/over_and_out

EDIT: on the bright side, you should really stick to your monk! really. The more the Rit is unpopular the bigger the number of buffs it gets.

Cheers.

1. I know what it is is capable of.

2. Mesmers are unique, they have some very very nice skills and some of those ideas are not present in any other game. Overpwered? Spiritual Pain was.

3. Ritualist cannot be a backline character in replacement of a prot monk w/o you making a build giving them way more support than a prot monk needs or making a build directly to hurt prot monks like NR/Tranq.

They are too weak for that role in 8v8. In 4v4 some of their capabilities are overpowered because they can spirit camp. At the moment the best use of rits is in Spikes.

Joe

Bloody Samuel

21-02-2007, 11:19

Arutima

21-02-2007, 11:19

evillorderic

21-02-2007, 12:04

why comparing a resto rit with a prot monk, anyway?

resto rit is almost as good healer as a healing prayers monk.
If you want to To compare a ritualist with a protection monk, then you're talking about comparing a communing ritualist and a protection monk.

Before nightfall release (and all those new and nifty protection prayers spells), and before the "ritual lord nerf" I would have said that ritualists was better then prot monks for whole party protection.

Since the near extinction of the rit lords and nightfall release, it doesnt anymore

This is 100% true, so far this thread is completely out of line anyway, regardless of either side's opinions. You can't compare restoration magic with protection because its closest counterpart is Healing Prayers, not Protection.

With that in mind, I'd say a Restoration Rit can "outheal" a Healing monk assuming the conditions are met. (A spirit in range usually) Skills like Mend Body and Soul especially shine with a 3/4 second cast and the ability to remove conditions. This skill itself is greater than an orison of healing with DF added on, PLUS it can remove a condition.

Cirian

21-02-2007, 13:21

All you have to do to see the current state of Rts in balanced groups is to watch some ObsMode and you'll see them there. Not as backliners, but as Chan/Resto Rt/Me midliners at the flagstand using Weapon of Warding/Expel Hexes and/or Rt/E flaggers/gankers running Restoration and Water magic.

Solo suvivability of the Rt/E's is really good - they're packing snares, speed boost, heals and stuff like Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Remedy. A solo ShockAxe is not a credible thread to such a character. When they go out supporting a YAA+BurningArrow in a 3 man gank crew, that gank crew is very resilient.

As for replacing a monk in the backline, well I have to say that the number of high quality monk elites and basic skills makes Monks the better choice. I think the Rt/Me midliner does a fine job of moving between the midline and backline when they need to though, so it's like sometimes there's a backine of 2 monks and a Rt and other times the Rt is in the midline.

For PvE I find they both work really, really well. Just a diffent flavour.

windcaller

21-02-2007, 13:51

One half decent shock warrior would kill you on his own.

in your dreams.

@Arutima and Cirian, i totally agree.

WingspanTT

21-02-2007, 15:51

OK, first please no personal attacks.

Second, I agree, the real discussion would be Resto v Healing and Prot vs Communing. So maybe we should close this thread and open those two threads.

Lastly, if someone is claiming to solo 4 spikers, and you just say "haha no", well why don't you two scrim, take some screenies, and show the results? k thanks bye

windcaller

21-02-2007, 16:21

Lastly, if someone is claiming to solo 4 spikers, and you just say "haha no"

it is possible to survive a 4 man spike in a scrimmage as union and shelter will prevent most of the damage.

i would agree on a scrimmage showing how 'a half-decent shock warrior' fails to kill a ritualist.

themagicmoedee

21-02-2007, 17:50

Second, I agree, the real discussion would be Resto v Healing and Prot vs Communing. So maybe we should close this thread and open those two threads.

See - I don't agree with that so much. The problem is that the two professions are apparently not intended to parallel each other, and they certainly don't. Communing splits its time between aggressive skills and defensive skills, and if you try to stand it up against Protection from a purely support-oriented perspective, you're going to get laughed out of the room (well, since the Ritual Lord balance, anyway). Similarly, the Ritualist gets most of the profession's marginal advantage over Healing Monks on the basis that most of their heals come with extra cheese at no additional charge to you, the consumer. High-end Ritualist heals are, on the whole, about as good as high-end Monk heals (accounting for at least some juice from Divine Favor). The latest balance actually put the Ritualist in the game on that end of the competition. I would be willing to defend the idea that, against a Healing-specialized Monk, a Restoration-specialized Ritualist will routinely outpace him in general effectiveness because, for instance, he get Shield of Deflection and Shield of Regeneration as unstrippable non-elites (okay, so they're not quite as good, but there isn't an enchantment available to a Monk without a yellow border that provides as much effect as Resilient Weapon). I think it's a close competition either way, and the reason I'd tend to take the Ritualist in GvG is because he's better at both of the two things that Healing Monks actually do (Heal Party and Infuse Health). Of course, he's not better at both of them at the same time, but that's another complicated discussion.

What I think the real problem is here is that we're trying to compare apples and cabbages. You're not going to find an objective, "Dude, this one is totally better" answer because that's not how a balanced game works. If we're going to put every class with a support role in this race, we have to start considering support Paragons (and frankly, I'd take my Protection Monk out in PvE with Sogolon and we'd be perfectly fine in about 80% of situations, so they're definitely in the race).

Guild Wars is a Benetton ad of professions. Trying to pick a winner is not in the spirit.

Bloody Samuel

21-02-2007, 18:09

in your dreams.

@Arutima and Cirian, i totally agree.

Lol the guy said he was just bringing 4 spirits so I stand by that, he said he brought only Life, displacement union and shelter and I will scrim you myself and I am a crappy shock warrior.

WingspanTT

21-02-2007, 18:15

I am also highly skeptical that such a rit with those 4 skills could survive vs a shock warrior or hell any kind of melee. But uh, who knows, right? Please set up this scrim and post the screenies, then we will get back to something that is actually up to debate.

windcaller

21-02-2007, 18:27

:drumrolls:

The confruntation of all times,
The event you've looked forward to seeing most,
Only on GWO forums.
Starring Bloody Samuel,
As the 'Shock warr'
And Windcaller,
As the 'Ritualist'.
The event of the year,

Soon in Theatres!

leaving jokes aside... Time and place?

WingspanTT

21-02-2007, 18:36

windcaller

21-02-2007, 18:42

While you guys set up times, I would like to place my bets (10k) on the shock warrior. This is assuming the build you posted, none of that "I'm just gonna run an echo-vengeful build" at the last second BS.

did we agree on builds? i'll be resto rit, coz this is what we're arguing about, and he'll be a shock warr.

and the damage a shock warr does negates VwK completely.I think so, at least..never tried.

Siako

21-02-2007, 19:18

did we agree on builds? i'll be resto rit, coz this is what we're arguing about, and he'll be a shock warr.

and the damage a shock warr does negates VwK completely.I think so, at least..never tried.

I thought the build was
Shelter, Union, Displacement and Life (NO HEAL SPELLS, other than the heal that life does), , which is what brought up the issue of the shock warrior in the first place.

VwK alone negates the majority of warrior builds unless specially designed prior to combat with VwK in mind, (which is why it was such a popular farming build before the AI changes) both gradually killing the warrior while healing the ritualist for any damage sustained.

Of course, a better test would be a true GvG match to better portray restoration/protection under pressure. Admittedly this adds too many variables based on the other members skill with their builds as well...

So, in summary, this test would prove just about nothing... but sure go for it anyway. Assuming you use the four spirit build, or even a GvG restoration build not specifically designed to tank one shock warrior, my money is also on the warrior.

Edit: Oh, and for the record a decent protection warrior should be able to survive at least say... 2-3 shock warriors for a good amount of time, number and duration varying based on the build they use.

windcaller

21-02-2007, 19:49

So, in summary, this test would prove just about nothing... but sure go for it anyway. Assuming you use the four spirit build, or even a GvG restoration build not specifically designed to tank one shock warrior, my money is also on the warrior.

i will use a typical resto rt build, nothing special designed for this....event...

*mumbles* i must've missed the 4 spirit build part.

WingspanTT

21-02-2007, 20:05

That was the whole point of the challenge.

And yes of course a standard resto build can survive vs an axe warrior. A standard healing anything could, since if you can't heal the damage one attacker puts out, how could you heal a whole team? Hell, just run weapon of warding, protective was kaolai, soothing memories and any kind of other 5 skills, what could possibly go wrong? ^^

windcaller

21-02-2007, 20:19

That was the whole point of the challenge.

i'm starting to feel like a total noob.

And yes of course a standard resto build can survive vs an axe warrior. A standard healing anything could, since if you can't heal the damage one attacker puts out, how could you heal a whole team? Hell, just run weapon of warding, protective was kaolai, soothing memories and any kind of other 5 skills, what could possibly go wrong? ^^

that's what i wanted to prove.

equip insignia for armor while under item, get resilient ashpot...+34 armor + 24 from resilient weapon + 6 regen...makes spoil victor+scourge healing look like jokes also.

with no active healing you can't survive even a henchman's wandings.

the 4 spirit build (which i missed, and i feel like crap because of it) must've been a joke or a very well hidden sarcasm.even if you wand the target the spirit of union dies, as it reduces damage at every hit. after that's dead carry on hitting until shelter dies. Next, keep your shock for every attempt of a spirit cast. Then you can aswell just keep auto-attacking.

As you said, on an active healing build what can go wrong?Unless you get a lag spike <.<

Pfft.

*hem hem*
However, a Rit can outheal a monk! :undecided: :fortuneteller:

:sad: darn post skipping not paying attention pffft