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BunnyLord
02-02-2007, 01:52
* Spoil Victor: decreased duration to 5..20 seconds.
* Reaper's Mark: decreased Energy return to 5..15, decreased Health degeneration to 1..5.
* Deathly Swarm: increased damage to 30..90.
* Vile Touch: decreased recharge time to 2 seconds.
* Deathly Chill: increased Conditional damage to 5..50.
* Toxic Chill: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
* Discord: Increased damage to 30..110.
* Chilblains: decreased recharge time to 8 seconds.
* Corrupt Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Envenom Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Gaze of Contempt: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 25 seconds.
* Jagged Bones: Increased Recharge time to 15 seconds.
* Rend Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Rip Enchantment: decreased sacrifice to 30..10% of maximum Health.
* Barbs: increased damage to 1..15.
* Suffering: decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Defile Flesh: increased duration to 5..35 seconds, decreased sacrifice to 10% of maximum Health.
* Price of Failure: decreased cast time to 2 seconds, increased damage dealt to 15..45.
* Malign Intervention: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds. The created minion does not exploit the corpse.
* Insidious Parasite: decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.
* Malaise: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Energy degeneration and you suffer -2 Health degeneration. Malaise ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Malaise ends, that foe takes 5..50 damage."
* Wither: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -2..4 Health degeneration and -1 Energy degeneration. Wither ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Wither ends, that foe takes 15..75 damage."
* Rising Bile: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased damage done per second to 1..6, decreased duration to 20 seconds.
* Ulcerous Lungs: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds. This Hex now does -4 Health degeneration, but only to Bleeding foes.
* Depravity: decreased recharge time to 15 seconds, decreased Energy loss to 1..5.
* Mark of Fury: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, increased duration to 5..35.

Daniel Giterman
02-02-2007, 01:59
This destruction of jagged bones is just too much. 10 would have been enough.

I XM
02-02-2007, 02:43
Overnerfed

bellissima
02-02-2007, 02:45
Yeah... 15s on JB seems too much.

halfthought
02-02-2007, 03:09
totally signed

and discord is too much 105 at 16 DM is better, 135 seems way too good, using a discord pressure, I held halls for a couple times last event

The Avatar
02-02-2007, 03:21
anet certainly doesnt know how to balance.

halfthought
02-02-2007, 04:00
people certainly dont know how to back up there oppinions

thats gotta be the 5 time ive said this, pleas BACK UP YOUR OPPINIONS geez

im really getting pissed

jasmine leb
02-02-2007, 04:09
oh no guys, he's getting pissed.. lol.. who cares.

anyway, jagged bones is pretty messed up. although I never really used it anyway.

I XM
02-02-2007, 04:35
30 second duration(fixed) enchant with a recharge of 15. That's 2 casts per 30 seconds instead of 6 (7 with a 20% enchant mod) before.

This means that in a heated PvE battle you can only recycle 2 minions per 30 seconds instead of 7.

In the long term (degen, not death from battle) it means that a lot less minions will get recycled. Just tested in a few of my Hero build test areas with my usual 2 MM setup: usually I have 8+ (1/3) of the minions being jagged horrors when there is a lot of action or not enough corpses for 2 MMs. Now it seems going slowly at most gets about 5 jagged horrors (1/4). Going at my usual pace, it's more like 2-4. Definitely not worth an elite slot anymore.

In PvP, well that's the energy regen cut in 3. Don't need to test to see. -_-

Discord (overbuffed, will be overnerfed in the next patch instead of brought to a reasonable level) it is I think. This patch overall is quite bad. Necroes weren't hit as bad as mesmer and paragons though. I think the large number of skills and builds is starting to show Izzy's lack of competence for the job of balancing skills. It's now just being nerfs to any used skill whether they are overpowered or imbalanced. No thought for buffing counters or anything. The crappy GvG "balanced" gimmick build (and the incessant nerfs to make sure this particular gimmick build stays on top) is also starting to get on my nerves. If the new HA isn't fun either, I'll take a break from GW and come back in a few months see if it's better.:soapbox:

meatloafman
02-02-2007, 04:44
spoil victor didnt get touched.

Aemchair Warrior
02-02-2007, 04:49
well, i think jagged bones got hit a bit hard. giterman's hit, 10sec recharge would be fine. most of the other changes i can live with. messing with an echo toxic chill build might be kinda fun.

Undead Priest
02-02-2007, 05:23
Changes from First Test Weekend to Second "Test" Weekend
(Aka the New Permanent Changes you're gonna have to live with)


Depravity:
2nd Weekend - decreased recharge time to 15 seconds, decreased Energy loss to 1..5.

1st Weekend - Depravity: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Original - Recharge 25, Energy Loss 1..7


Envenom Enchantments:
2nd Weekend - Envenom Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.

1st Weekend - decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 25.

Original - Cost of 10 Cast of 2 and Recharge of 20


Gaze of Contempt:
2nd Weekend - decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 25 seconds.

1st Weekend - decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 2 seconds, increased recharge time to 25 seconds.

Original - Cost 15, Cast 2, Recharge 20


Reaper's Mark:
2nd Weekend - decreased Energy return to 5..15, decreased Health degeneration to 1..5.

1st Weekend - decreased Energy return to 5..15.

Original - Energy Return 10...20, Health Degen 1...6.


Jagged Bones:
2nd Weekend - Increased Recharge time to 15 seconds.

1st Weekend - *No Change From Original*

Original - Recharge 5


Hmm, a lot of stuff that should have gotten buffed, didn't, and then they way over-nerfed Jagged Bones.
JB was actually worth a MM putting it on their elite slot before,
Although admittedly there was debate as to whether it was actually better than the alternatives or not, but now it's all but impossible to justify it's Elite Status at all much less considering it in you skill bar, when there are so many other skills, that beat it hands down.

Arutima
02-02-2007, 05:39
ah that jagged bones "nerf" reminds me of something that happened a bit before the release of factions. Verata sacrifice, anyone?

Ryuujinx
02-02-2007, 08:55
Goodbye jagged, may you rest in peace. Hello tainted flesh how are you doing?

Sigh.

ManMadeGod
02-02-2007, 12:18
Olias lost his job.
"You are fired!"

ManMadeGod
02-02-2007, 12:35
totally signed

and discord is too much 105 at 16 DM is better, 135 seems way too good, using a discord pressure, I held halls for a couple times last event

135?
It's now 115 damage at 16 death (same as last test event).

Representative elite of Blood Magic: Spoil Victor -> nerfed
Representative elite of Curses: Spiteful Spirit-> scatters
Representative elite of Soul Reaping : Reaper's Mark -> nerfed
Representative elite of Death Magic : Jagged Bones -> BANNED

I don't think Discord will survive, it will be nerfed during this weekend.

Wither and Malaise suck btw.

chirthain
02-02-2007, 12:44
Overnerfed...really overnerfed....

Viti Ligo
02-02-2007, 13:18
Shame what they did to Jagged bones, but afterall doesn't really affect my favorit builds too much if at all.

satenia
02-02-2007, 13:48
Shame what they did to Jagged bones, but afterall doesn't really affect my favorit builds too much if at all.

Gave up on the WS/PT build... or? 4 sec recharge on WS is harsh :tongue:

Guess I gotta start looking into MM'ing or SS'ing after all. Cookiecutter ftw.

Viti Ligo
02-02-2007, 14:26
Gave up on the WS/PT build... or? 4 sec recharge on WS is harsh :tongue:

Guess I gotta start looking into MM'ing or SS'ing after all. Cookiecutter ftw.

MM'ing FTW.

cloudbunny
02-02-2007, 14:35
Well, almost "eternal" minions with the old Jagged bones was a bit over the top, imho.

My MM-Olias was very good in keeping them up. It also gave a party with 2 or more necros loads of extra energy. 5s recharge was way to good for a start. It had been a bit overpowered also at 10s. Sustained minions + extra energy is a very powerful combination.


My Olias will now change his elite slot for Discord. I tested it today, and he makes very nice use of it. The Barbs buff is also a nice boost to a curse+MM necro Duo.

Rend Enchantments is actually going to be a skill I will use in the future, against hard bosses, the 3s cast really hurt it. I might even test Rising Bile, 140 damage to foes in the area is a pretty strong finisher in hard fights.


Altogther the changes for me were mainly on the positive side.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Undead Priest
02-02-2007, 17:24
Well, almost "eternal" minions with the old Jagged bones was a bit over the top, imho.

My MM-Olias was very good in keeping them up. It also gave a party with 2 or more necros loads of extra energy. 5s recharge was way to good for a start. It had been a bit overpowered also at 10s. Sustained minions + extra energy is a very powerful combination.


When exactly was it at 10s?

Anyhow I have to disagree with you, this nerf was poorly implemented.

The whole purpose of jagged bones was to extend the lifetime of your existing minions (The Energy Gain was just Icing on the Cake).
The current recharge and duration means that at best only two of your minions can be enchanted with it at one time, and you have to remember this is an Enchantment, it can easily be removed, plus it can exploited to give your foes more energy, or allow them to cause more damage to your allies.

Currently, as a normal ordinary skill, it would be at best a so-so skill, and might be worth a slot, but as an elite?

If the abuse is using Jagged Bones as an E-Management skill, when it's supposed to be a Minion Life Extension tool, it would make more sense to leave the recharge where it is and either raise the cost of the spell to 10, or reduce the SR for Jagged Horrors to half, like they did with spirits.

Another alternative is to leave the spell as is, but make it so it enchants target Undead Ally, and all Animated Undead Allies Nearby Target Ally.

Nekretaal
02-02-2007, 18:04
This was a massive nerf to necromancers.



As for the specific changes,


Reaper's Mark: decreased Energy return to 5..15, decreased Health degeneration to 1..5

I hate this change. Apply poison + poison mod gives you almost the same amount of Degen at almost the same duration. At the level of soul reaping of most necromancers who will use the skill, the -4 degen is the same. While the poison from apply posion can be easily removed, it is actually harder/more draining on monks to remove the poison (easily reapllied) than to remove the hex. Plus, for the same 10 energy using apply poison you can put some degen on one player or on the whole team (using a non-elite too).

The nerf to energy kills necromancers in RA/TA/HvH where necromancers lack good energy management.



* Deathly Swarm: increased damage to 30..90.
* Vile Touch: decreased recharge time to 2 seconds.
* Deathly Chill: increased Conditional damage to 5..50.
* Toxic Chill: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds...
* Corrupt Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5.
* Envenom Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Rip Enchantment: decreased sacrifice to 30..10% of maximum Health
* Defile Flesh: increased duration to 5..35 seconds, decreased sacrifice to 10% of maximum Health.
* Ulcerous Lungs: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds. This Hex now does -4 Health degeneration, but only to Bleeding foes.
* Mark of Fury: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, increased duration to 5..35

Crap skills that are still crap.

* Discord: Increased damage to 30..110.

Aside from generally complaining at how awful the skill is, nobody really clamored for the change. I've played with dischord, and the balancing factor of the skill is the fact that the skill has a tendency to fizzle and do nothing... a lot... stealing your energy everytime it fizzles. Combine this with the ability of conditions to be removed in pve, and its not so hot for a single target spell that doesnt do AOE. Maybe Dischord could be paired up with a Mark of rodgort teammate, for the hex and condition... but.. the death necromancy line brings very little to the table on its own. I think the skill is balanced. I think the skill doesnt make the pvp metagame in a big way.


* Chilblains: decreased recharge time to 8 seconds.*
* Rend Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Gaze of Contempt: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 25 seconds.

These recharge times suck. Other than minions, what are necromancers actually good at?

Most of our skills arent as good as similar skills other lines. Our hexes are worse than conditions and worse than mesmer hexes, all of our many curse debuffs combined cant compare to "blind" and our non-minion damage ability is probably the worst or second worst of all classes. At one point I could say: Well, necromancers are good at removing enchantments, but thats not true anymore. Grenth Dervish didnt get anything changed about a broken mechanic, and assassins can wipe out a stack of enchants with a 2s recharge dual attack, and sometrhing like shatter enchantment or drain enchamnet was always better than necromancer enchantment removal.

Color me dissapointed.


* Suffering: decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Price of Failure: decreased cast time to 2 seconds, increased damage dealt to 15..45.
* Malign Intervention: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds. The created minion does not exploit the corpse.
* Malaise: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Energy degeneration and you suffer -2 Health degeneration. Malaise ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Malaise ends, that foe takes 5..50 damage."
* Wither: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -2..4 Health degeneration and -1 Energy degeneration. Wither ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Wither ends, that foe takes 15..75 damage."
* Insidious Parasite: decreased recharge time to 12 seconds


These are buffs that didnt go far enough to make the skills usable. I do like the changed to malaise and wither. With this framework, a future buff could make them useable. Hopefully malaise and wither were fixed to match their description.


* Barbs: increased damage to 1..15.
* Rising Bile: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased damage done per second to 1..6, decreased duration to 20 seconds.

I actually like these changes, though neither skill of the two is good enough to be non situational.


* Depravity: decreased recharge time to 15 seconds, decreased Energy loss to 1..5.

This skill just gets worse and worse. Its basically non-aoe, and the energy loss is almost to the point of ignoring. The cast time is still "you need to be a mesmer to play this" awful, and the skill also doesnt seem to work like "Price of pride" where the energy loss happens first causing the skill to fizzle if the energy to cast it doesnt exist.

This skill does amost nothing to monks used to playing with low energy. I dont like the skill.


* Jagged Bones: Increased Recharge time to 15 seconds..

Wow this skill was butchered. Totally butchered. I wonder if in PvE, the level of the jagged minion cant be raised to give this skill a point for existing.

Necromancers are once again screwed in corpse poor areas.


Spoil Victor.. well they didnt change the recharge or the cast time, which would have killed the skill. I guess I can live with this change. I was one of the early proponants of this skill, and I'm not sure that the current version isnt worse than the pre-buff version that people thought was the worst skill in guild wars, but was raved about by people who actually used it.

OTHER:

SPIRITWAY.The Restoration spirit "Life" is more spammable, but the ritualist communing line is dead, with only one decent offensive and one defensive spirit left, so it looks like necromancers may still get into pvp groups, spamming non-necromancer skills, when paired with a restoration ritualist.

Divert Hexes was not changed. The only way to use hexes was already to use mesmer elite-disabling signets, because Divert Hexes wipes out a stack for 10E and recharges in 5S (healing for 200 and removing up to 3 conditions too)

Hexing abilities of the elementalist were massively buffed. They have more spammable aoe hexes with bigger aoe ranges and more useful effects than necromancer now. Curse hexing is obsolete, as is the idea that the necromancer can AOE hex people the best.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

Anet seems to only care about the death line. The curses and blood lines have many poor skills that recieved no attention. Its hard to identify any areas (other than spoil victor) where either line does anything better than other lines.

Its going to be harder to run a necromancer in pvp. All of the pvp necromancer builds got hit. Divert hexes still makes everything in curses obsolete, and blood is still on life support (other than the single skill spoil victor) because runes of vitae mean necromancers cant spike with blood cleanly in 6v6. Jagged spammers are dead, but "spiritway" isnt dead. This means that it will still be possible to see necromancers in high level pvp, but those necromancers may not have many (or any) necromancer skills.

In Pve, I've had a lot less fun with my necromancer ever since nightfall came out. Heros do a great job as MM, and every other build other than MM is not so efficient compared to MM and compared to other classes. Anet seems to have neglected the curses and blood lines again.

Necromancer skills (outside of MM) seem to be lacking, and the profession itself is starved for things to do in areas where the enemies are too high level for minions to matter or the areas are corpse poor. Even the battery role (which was never fun to play) sometimes sees necromancer replaced by paragon.

cloudbunny
02-02-2007, 19:17
This was a massive nerf to necromancers.
Wow this skill (Jagged Bones) was butchered. Totally butchered. I wonder if in PvE, the level of the jagged minion cant be raised to give this skill a point for existing.

Necromancers are once again screwed in corpse poor areas.


Well, MM'ing in Prophecy before SF was not that great....

After SF the minion masters have almost taken over the necro proffesion. In Factions they got a big boost (BoTM could now alone replace BoTM+ Verata's Sacrifice) + nice skills that combined well with MM, Icy Veins and Flesh Golem. The whole Faction environment, except the last mission was a big MM Feast.

In Nightfall we got several other very nice MM skills with Jagged Bones as the extreme top of the pile - "Eternal Minions"! When I use MM-Olias as as a necro-buddy, my team have no problem what so ever in any area up to DoA.

Yes it was a big nerf, but the skill was very overpowered. I understand people are mourning. But 2-3 recycled minions is a nice help. Much better than the Flesh Golem elite in my opinion. having 6-8 recyclable minions is a bit over the top. As curse necro I could have MM-Olias as a effective high-dmg battery making me spam 15 energy skills like crazy.

As I said before, even if the skill had recharged in 10s it would have been a bit overpowered.

I still do very well as Curse necro in PvE areas, if I go with MM-Olias we are still a very strong addition to a team.

regards,
Cloudbunny

Healia Exe
02-02-2007, 21:09
Jagged Bones is really overnerfed and that while it was just an average elite to begin with, in my opinion. The 1 second casting time usually already made Olias react too slow anyways, but 15 recharge on top of that is just too much...

Undead Priest
02-02-2007, 22:54
Well, MM'ing in Prophecy before SF was not that great....

After SF the minion masters have almost taken over the necro proffesion. In Factions they got a big boost (BoTM could now alone replace BoTM+ Verata's Sacrifice)


No, BoTM was worthless before it got buffed, it cost 10 energy, 10% max health, took 5 seconds to recharge and all that to only heal the minions adjacent to you for 30 health!

The buff to BoTM was just to counter the nerf to VS.
VS could heal ALL minions for 180 health every 30 seconds at 15% health sac and 10 energy

BoTM can health all minions
(Using 10, otherwise health sac would be greater)
for 198 health every 30 seconds
(Or Significantly less if you can counter the Sac)
at 50% health sac and 10 energy.

BoTM might have replaced VS, even without the Nerf, but BoTM was not a worthwhile skill until it's buff.




...Yes it was a big nerf, but the skill was very overpowered...As curse necro I could have MM-Olias as a effective high-dmg battery making me spam 15 energy skills like crazy...


Ah, but as I already stated instead of reducing the Battery nature,
Anet attacked the duration of the life span of the minions. (the MM's Lifeblood!)

If JB was indeed overpowered (which I agree with actually) it wasn't in the extended lifespan of the Minions, it was in the energy gain that could be achieved through their continued death's.

A Minion Master without minions is a huge hinderance to his party, thus he needs options for extending the life of his army.
currently a MM has three choices in the death line.

1. Verata's Sacrifice - Needs a buff, likely an increase in the duration to make it feasible for common use, and even then will only extend the lifetime so long

2. Blood of the Master - Decent heal, but requires the MM to have some method to either heal or mitigate the extremely large Sacrifice, and also has a limit to the amount it can extend the lifetime of a minion.

3. Jagged Bones [E] - is An Enchantment with a 30 second duration, takes and Elite slot and can only be cast on one minion every 15 seconds (Previously 5), but if it's doesn't get striped or expire prior to the minion's death it can provide you with a new minion to replace the old.

saving 2 minions out of 10 simply doesn't justify an elite slot, and it doesn't make sense to nerf the lifespan of the 10 minion army when it's the energy gain that's overpowered.

I would suggest reworking the skill to effect All Undead Allies. Perhaps something like this

Jagged Bones [E] - Enchantment spell
Cost 5 Cast 1 Recharge 15
For 30 Seconds All Undead Allies are Enchanted with Jagged Bones, whenever an undead ally dies while enchanted with Jagged Bones, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes bleeding with each of its attacks.

Now, I left the recharge and duration the same, but this setup would allow Anet to raise the Recharge and Duration to prevent using it for
E-Management, while still allowing Minion Masters to utilize it to keep their army up and running since they only need to cast it once where someone trying to use it for E-management would want to kill off their minions repeatedly.

I XM
02-02-2007, 23:38
The nerf was only because of it's use as an energy engine.

A balancing of the skill rather than this nuking would have involved increasing the recharge to 10s but lengthening the duration of the enchantment so that over time you can have a decent number of concurrently enchanted minions (6-8 before, depending on equipement: +20% enchant mod, HSR mods). Since only the recharge is relevant to its use as an energy engine (in terms of energy per second) this would have severely nerfed the energy engine but kept the skill still good for PvE MMing. Now you really need to rely on BotM for keeping the minions alive long enough (less effective minion bombing) so that over time you can recycle enough minions in corpse poor areas. I need to do more Malign Intervention testing to see if it would help. The hit to its effectiveness is very visible though. :/

5E 1s 15s
For 10-70 (90@ 16 Death Magic) seconds, whenever target undead servant dies, it is replaced by a level 0...12 Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks.

Having it enchant more than one minion would still make it very powerful energy management. Cast, all minions enchanted. Chain kill them until Jagged Bones recharges. Before it was basically 1 minion killable for x soul reaping energy every 6secon cycle. If it enchants 10 minions for more than it's recharge at a recharge of 15 seconds. That's 1 minion killable every 1.6 seconds. Effectively, increasing the energy regen by 4 times. Not good.

The number of minions enchantable per second needs to be low, and the only way to do this is to make it target only one minion and have a high recharge. An alternative solution that respects the minion extension idea would be to totally rework the skill to be similar to the Graven Monolith's Reform Carving. So instead of dying, anytime the minion would die (while enchanted with JB) it changes to a Jagged Horrow with health and degen reset. If Graven Monoliths can change profession/skills dynamically and get their energy replenished (or highly boosted) just after a Reform Carving, I can't see why the same mechanism can't be used to extend minion life in the spirit of the skill. Note there is no death, therefore no SR energy to be gained at all.

ChickenBurger
02-02-2007, 23:52
whine whine whine whine ......

i swear, ill never stop playign my necro nothign wrong with it never will be, deal with a nerf, seriously....theres plenty of other things to do out there...yall make it sound like the end of the world...liek yall ever used jagged bones till soemone started winning with it :)

(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day

crosswound
03-02-2007, 00:04
i think the jagged bones nerf was needed badly every class got the hits they deservered.

Undead Priest
03-02-2007, 00:19
Having it enchant more than one minion would still make it very powerful energy management. Cast, all minions enchanted. Chain kill them until Jagged Bones recharges. Before it was basically 1 minion killable for x soul reaping energy every 6secon cycle. If it enchants 10 minions for more than it's recharge at a recharge of 15 seconds. That's 1 minion killable every 1.6 seconds. Effectively, increasing the energy regen by 4 times. Not good.

The point I was trying to make is that it would allow Anet to Raise both the Duration & Recharge to limit energy gain, without harming the Effectiveness of the skill.
Say you raise it to a 60 second duration and a 30 second recharge you are still looking at a viable skill for a MM since they can maintain their army easier, but you effectively cut the amount of energy someone can gain in that 30 second time frame down by half.
Still too much energy gain? raise the Duration & Recharge, effectiveness for the MM is still left more or less intact.

I think we are mostly on the same page with Duration needing to match the increase in recharge.



An alternative solution that respects the minion extension idea would be to totally rework the skill to be similar to the Graven Monolith's Reform Carving. So instead of dying, anytime the minion would die (while enchanted with JB) it changes to a Jagged Horrow with health and degen reset. If Graven Monoliths can change profession/skills dynamically and get their energy replenished (or highly boosted) just after a Reform Carving, I can't see why the same mechanism can't be used to extend minion life in the spirit of the skill. Note there is no death, therefore no SR energy to be gained at all.


Or they could at least reduce the SR you get off each consecutive minion, or work it so it only gives you an exploitable corpse instead of a minion, or a million other things that attacks the problem directly without killing the skill's worth.

It's simple, Anet needs to rethink this and come up with a real solution that keeps this skill viable, and not just create another elite that won't be added to people's skill bars.

Gmr Leon
03-02-2007, 00:45
whine whine whine whine ......

i swear, ill never stop playign my necro nothign wrong with it never will be, deal with a nerf, seriously....theres plenty of other things to do out there...yall make it sound like the end of the world...liek yall ever used jagged bones till soemone started winning with it :)

(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day

Contrary to that side-note I'm not going to insult you..Instead I'm going to say rock on. First post I've seen with a positive outlook in this thread. Long live Blood and Curses! :tongue:

I don't really see this as a huge OMGZWTFBBQ TEY NERFED MY BUILD!1!!1 *rage quit* update or change myself.

cloudbunny
03-02-2007, 03:33
Just a question...

All you that seem to have the opinion that Jagged Bones is a necessary MM skill....

How did you get through Factions?

There were no minion recycling, only BotM.

Despite that, during the whole Factions campagne everyone seemed to want a MM in the party. Even with a less powerful Jagged Bones it has not gone worse in Nightfall, have it? There are more MM skills to choose from now, than it was before.

Be happy, try something new :-)

Discord, Icy Veins, Order of Undeath are all nice MM elites worth testing.
My Olias do loads of extra damage with Discord, as he do with Icy Veins...

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Ryuujinx
03-02-2007, 10:21
Why on earth should I be happy? They took a very, very nice elite and made it complete garbage. It's in the heap with verata's sacrifice. Only at least that you can keep on 3 minions this you can keep on 3 with a 20% mod, but only for 6 seconds will it be on all 3.


whine whine whine whine ......

i swear, ill never stop playign my necro nothign wrong with it never will be, deal with a nerf, seriously....theres plenty of other things to do out there...yall make it sound like the end of the world...liek yall ever used jagged bones till soemone started winning with it :)

(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day



And for this, yes I did use jagged before jaggedway came about, it was a nice elite. Back to Tainted for Minion Bombing, and Back to AoTL, Fleshy or OOU for MMing.

Sir Jack
03-02-2007, 11:58
At least JB got nerfed and not Soul Reaping. You wouldn't believe how many people want it nerfed (badly) for PvP due to the possibility of abuse.

ManMadeGod
03-02-2007, 15:49
I do like the changed to malaise and wither. With this framework, a future buff could make them useable. Hopefully malaise and wither were fixed to match their description.

I actually like these changes, though neither skill of the two is good enough to be non situational.


They are very situational!
Malaise and Wither don't do any damage when they end or removed except the target's energy reaches 0.
With only -1 energy degen, the chance that your target's energy reaches 0 is extremely low. If you combine these 2 spells with some more e-denial spells, you probably can make your target's energy reaches 0, but I think you will waste equal or even more energy.
To trigger the extra damage of Malaise, you usually suffered more damage than hexed foe from the degen.

-1 energy degen + very conditional damage << -2 energy degen

The old version is not overpowered, they can be dealt by focus swapping.
The current version will punish your target if he removes it by focus swapping. But, well, -1 degen? people won't bother swapping and will keep it and drain your health. And remember, the damage won't trigger if it ends naturally or removed by hex removal .

This is a big nerf imo.

The current version is useless, especially Malaise.

If ANet want to change them, just go for one, not both.
Keep Malaise -2 energy degen instead of -1 + conditional damage since it causes -2 heath degen to the caster.

cloudbunny
03-02-2007, 17:57
In Prophecy there were no particulary MM Elites. people used Aura of the Lich or Offering of Blood or something else... I even tried Virulence.

Many did not even use the elite slot for their MM builds.

In Factions we got the hyped Flesh Golem and the nice Icy Veins.
In Nightfall we got Jagged Bones, Order of Undeath and now even Discord is useful.

Yes, Jagged Bones got a hard it, but a few recycled minions might be better than none at all in corpseless areas. If you have free skill slot it is still better than many alternatives. Discord/Icy Veins can give you nice extra damage but is a hassel to apply for human players (fine with heros though). The MM skill situation is still much better than in Prophecy and Factions.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Death Sigma
03-02-2007, 19:39
My opinions on these coming from a diehard Necromancer fan. :sunny:


* Spoil Victor: decreased duration to 5..20 seconds.
Meh, I didn't think this should be nerfed in the first place. For some reason it only got popular after NF and before nobody ever used it. (Except for me and a few others I know). I can live with that, since with high Blood you can still keep it on a person for as long as you want or slowly spread it among a few people. Perfect balance I think.



* Reaper's Mark: decreased Energy return to 5..15, decreased Health degeneration to 1..5.
Awww that sucks. I liked the first weekends changes, taking 1 degen pip off this skill makes it worse than most people think. I'll still use it, since it's a nice cheap spell with still great effects and a nice recharge, but I would have been much more happier with less energy return only.


* Deathly Swarm: increased damage to 30..90.
* Deathly Chill: increased Conditional damage to 5..50.
* Toxic Chill: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
Whee I like this! Toxic Chill is good, despite what people think. Great energy cost, cast time, recharge, does decent dmg and poisons! The situational poison is easy for a Necromancer to fufill. Also, not many people use + armor vs. cold damage anymore with inscribable armor, so these skills def. became more powerful. Really happy (just hope you don't fight an all ranger team XD)


* Vile Touch: decreased recharge time to 2 seconds
This skill still sucks. 10 E and a spammable recharge that require you to be in touch range? Ouch. I would say make it a more damaging version of Vamp Touch/Bite. Maybe around 95-105 dmg at 12 Death (I don't know, just more than Vamp Touch). Make it 15E and 5 sec recharge. It would be a nice finisher move that gives you enough time to get back.


* Discord: Increased damage to 30..110.
WHEE. This will be a fun skill to use. Not sure about it becoming a new flavor in high ranked PvP since this skill is very situational, but I can see a few good guilds running it. I will def. have fun with this :laugh:


* Chilblains: decreased recharge time to 8 seconds.
25 E and short range? No thanks.


* Corrupt Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5.

* Envenom Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Gaze of Contempt: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 25 seconds.
Good against Monks and Dervs who rely almost exclusively on enchants. The high degen isn't bad either. I don't see this skill getting alot of use on high-end PvP, but I take it sometimes for some fun and it works. Envenom is basically a lower powered Corrupt Enchants with a condition applied instead of a hex. If it had a lower recharge (say 15 seconds) it would be alot more popular. Gaze of Contempt is still good; I didn't see it as needing a tweak but I'm not sure you will see it much in high end PvP due to it's higher recharge. (should have been 20 secs I think to make it more useful in high end PvP)


* Jagged Bones: Increased Recharge time to 15 seconds.
This skill got owned. 10 Secs would have been enough. There goes jagged necros; this doesn't deserve to be elite right now. Hopefully they will switch it to 10 seconds
.

* Rend Enchantments: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Rip Enchantment: decreased sacrifice to 30..10% of maximum Health.
More enchant removal buffs. Maybe ANet wants to discourage enchant use or something. Rip Enchant looks alot better. Rend Enchant got a HUGE boost; go enchant strippers! :D


* Barbs: increased damage to 1..15.
* Suffering: decreased casting time to 1 second.
* Defile Flesh: increased duration to 5..35 seconds, decreased sacrifice to 10% of maximum Health.
* Malign Intervention: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds. The created minion does not exploit the corpse.
Stop me I'm dreaming. These skills got alot better! Suffering update is pretty boring, but the others I'm extremely pleased about. Barbs could become a mainstay in melee heavy team builds; as could Defile Flesh. Malign Intervention can see alot use in Nec heavy teams. I like these updates quite a bit :)


* Insidious Parasite: decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.
* Price of Failure: decreased cast time to 2 seconds, increased damage dealt to 15..45.
YAY FOR ANTI-MELEE. Price of Failure owns now; I will def. have that on my bar on any curse builds. Insidious Parasite I would have liked more if the energy got reduced to 10 E instead, but a lower recharge means less hurt from interruption, so I'm happy! :)


* Malaise: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Energy degeneration and you suffer -2 Health degeneration. Malaise ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Malaise ends, that foe takes 5..50 damage."
* Wither: functionality changed to: "For 5..35 seconds, target foe suffers -2..4 Health degeneration and -1 Energy degeneration. Wither ends if target foe's Energy reaches 0. When Wither ends, that foe takes 15..75 damage."
YAY. Just.... YAY. These two skills really punish an opponent not using effective energy management. The added effects from teh skills are also nice (except Malaises -2 degen, but who cares). You could def. have a Necro and E-Denial Mesmer team up for some MASSIVE damage here. Hell, throw in a Depravity Nec for even more fun. :wink:


* Rising Bile: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased damage done per second to 1..6, decreased duration to 20 seconds.
* Ulcerous Lungs: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds. This Hex now does -4 Health degeneration, but only to Bleeding foes.
Eh, didn't care too much about these skills and still don't. Rising Bile might be a nice cover hex now though.


* Depravity: decreased recharge time to 15 seconds, decreased Energy loss to 1..5.
I think they made this one alot easier to use. Yes the 1...5 energy loss is less than the first weekend, but still, this skill is extremely balanced. With high Curses it's kept up, and you can choose to stick it on one target or slowly place it on 2-3. Great pressure spell here, alot like Spoil Victor.


* Mark of Fury: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, increased duration to 5..35.
Adren Wars should be happy. I never saw much use for these skills, but in a Warrior heavy team this is definetly a plus. These skills make the Necro appeal to not only aid Spellcasters (WoP, Blood Ritual) but also Melee units (Orders, MoF).

OVERALL: I think the Nec was given a boost in versitality and power in this update. Alot of skills that gave Necromancers different and interesting roles but were too underpowered were boosted. Some of the elites that people complained about were put into perfect balance (except Jagged Bones), and they were also given a bit more damage and enchant removal. I don't see why alot of people complain so much; the Necromancer got it easy compared to Paragons..... (which I'm mad about XD)

Death Sigma
03-02-2007, 19:53
They are very situational!
Malaise and Wither don't do any damage when they end or removed except the target's energy reaches 0.
With only -1 energy degen, the chance that your target's energy reaches 0 is extremely low. If you combine these 2 spells with some more e-denial spells, you probably can make your target's energy reaches 0, but I think you will waste equal or even more energy.
To trigger the extra damage of Malaise, you usually suffered more damage than hexed foe from the degen.

-1 energy degen + very conditional damage << -2 energy degen

The old version is not overpowered, they can be dealt by focus swapping.
The current version will punish your target if he removes it by focus swapping. But, well, -1 degen? people won't bother swapping and will keep it and drain your health. And remember, the damage won't trigger if it ends naturally or removed by hex removal .

This is a big nerf imo.

The current version is useless, especially Malaise.

If ANet want to change them, just go for one, not both.
Keep Malaise -2 energy degen instead of -1 + conditional damage since it causes -2 heath degen to the caster.

The changes to these skills puts a hidden pressure of 0 energy punishment as well as providing the -1 pip energy degen to emphasize the pressure. With Malaise just use Life Siphon on the same target and your degen problem is gone, and the enemy has -3 health degen with -1 energy degen and 0 energy punishment, for what, 15 energy? Sounds good to me.

Shoot, use Wither + Life Siphon. -7 health degen, -1 energy degen and 0 energy punishment while you get +3 regen, for 20 energy. I would say thats pretty good for an use of an elite and regular slot.

Use Wither + Malaise. -4 health degen, -2 energy degen and double 0 energy punishment (over 100 dmg) while you get -2 health degen for 15 energy.

I say these skills are much more useable now; lowering the energy degen rate and giving it dmg when foes energy reaches 0 discourages focus swapping yes, but it also shuts down the foe. What happens when they get low on energy? They can't swap for fear of high damage and reapplication of the spells, so they get bogged down and must either slow down casting or stop to regain energy, which is slowed by 1/4 or 1/2 (depending on your combo of spells).

ChickenBurger
03-02-2007, 22:26
Contrary to that side-note I'm not going to insult you..Instead I'm going to say rock on. First post I've seen with a positive outlook in this thread. Long live Blood and Curses! :tongue:

I don't really see this as a huge OMGZWTFBBQ TEY NERFED MY BUILD!1!!1 *rage quit* update or change myself.


Woot Amen :afro:
please folks theres tons and i mean TONS more to a necro than MMing and Minion Bombing, yall act like thats all they are good for

and yes ..Long live blood and curses!(and Soul Reaping):afro:

Healia Exe
04-02-2007, 14:26
It's the nice and new skills/elites that make this game fun to play. Seriously, what exactly was so fun about just running around with a dozen of minions healing them now and then or using Death Nova to minion-bomb. They add new options, people always like it when there's something new to try out... and then Anet nerfs it.


Originally Posted by ChickenBurger
whine whine whine whine ......

i swear, ill never stop playign my necro nothign wrong with it never will be, deal with a nerf, seriously....theres plenty of other things to do out there...yall make it sound like the end of the world...liek yall ever used jagged bones till soemone started winning with it :)

(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day

This thread would seriously be a boring one if everyone thought like you. These kind of posts disgust me seriously... people who add nothing to a discussion and instead tell people what they should do. I can imagine people getting angry from this, so don't play the wise-guy and put '(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day'. Instead if you have the balls to say this, have the balls to face commenting, people like you can learn lots from it.

ManMadeGod
05-02-2007, 05:05
The changes to these skills puts a hidden pressure of 0 energy punishment as well as providing the -1 pip energy degen to emphasize the pressure. With Malaise just use Life Siphon on the same target and your degen problem is gone, and the enemy has -3 health degen with -1 energy degen and 0 energy punishment, for what, 15 energy? Sounds good to me.

Shoot, use Wither + Life Siphon. -7 health degen, -1 energy degen and 0 energy punishment while you get +3 regen, for 20 energy. I would say thats pretty good for an use of an elite and regular slot.

Use Wither + Malaise. -4 health degen, -2 energy degen and double 0 energy punishment (over 100 dmg) while you get -2 health degen for 15 energy.

I say these skills are much more useable now; lowering the energy degen rate and giving it dmg when foes energy reaches 0 discourages focus swapping yes, but it also shuts down the foe. What happens when they get low on energy? They can't swap for fear of high damage and reapplication of the spells, so they get bogged down and must either slow down casting or stop to regain energy, which is slowed by 1/4 or 1/2 (depending on your combo of spells).

Sorry I can not agree at all.
Malaise used to be a good pressure hex before the NERF.
It worked and didn't need a lot of e-denial supports. I can combime malaise with all kind of hexed. Now the only usage of it is combining with other e-denial skills, I don't think it is "much more useable" at all. Old version is much more flexible.

-2 degen >> -1 degen + very conditioanl damage.
You can shutdown rangers and sins by old malaise because they don't use staffs so swapping helps less.

Even the extra damage triggers whenever it ends, the old version is still much better.

Viti Ligo
05-02-2007, 08:57
*sigh*... There are many mysteries to me in these "balance" changes, for example:
Deathly Swarm: increased damage to 30..90.

How does this change balance this skill ? I mean, (in Pve at least ) I selected a target, cast DS and start waiting... usually target has been long dead before ds would hit as my minions, heroes, henchmen or partymembers do the job much faster, resulting DS won't hit anyone.

To make this skill more useable they should have decreased the casting time or make the swarm fly faster. Not fun hit the dead foe...

ManMadeGod
05-02-2007, 10:55
At least JB got nerfed and not Soul Reaping. You wouldn't believe how many people want it nerfed (badly) for PvP due to the possibility of abuse.

I know.
People observe the games, for example, jaggedway vs spiritway.
People noticed the non-stop energy gains from soul reaping, because they are fuelling each other (their allies and enemies).
I used to bring Verata's Aura for HA, one skill that can destroy the whole jagged build, which is just like NR against SoMW build.
But most of the suggestion to change Soul Reaping are not well considered in every respect. For example, cut in half from minions? reduce effective range?
If they want to change how soul reaping works, they'd better think twice before doing it.
No matter how it changed, no doubt it will be a significant change to GW.

DrD
05-02-2007, 15:33
SR better not get touched. NOT EVER!!!!!! YOU HEAR ME ANET!

sequel
05-02-2007, 15:50
SR better not get touched. NOT EVER!!!!!! YOU HEAR ME ANET!

keep it down, don't give them any bad ideas and don't taunt them either with "you wouldn't dare" stuff, just don't mention the subjet at all :sealed:

Death Sigma
05-02-2007, 17:26
Sorry I can not agree at all.
Malaise used to be a good pressure hex before the NERF.
It worked and didn't need a lot of e-denial supports. I can combime malaise with all kind of hexed. Now the only usage of it is combining with other e-denial skills, I don't think it is "much more useable" at all. Old version is much more flexible.

-2 degen >> -1 degen + very conditioanl damage.
You can shutdown rangers and sins by old malaise because they don't use staffs so swapping helps less.

Even the extra damage triggers whenever it ends, the old version is still much better.

So you would rather allow them to freely swap wep sets to get rid of the hex than to put a penalty in for doing so?

That's mainly why spells like Malaise and Wither weren't ever used; their effects were easily dealt with. Now if an opponent did wep set swap with the skill changes, they would be dealt damage each time it happened. Malaise is also low energy and easily spammable- the minute you see the damage counter on your foe (which now you can tell more easily when it's on or off) you can easily reapply it. This gives even more damage since it's much easier to get their energy back to 0 after they've wasted it the first time.

So what if they don't give as much energy degen; it's not like it was a measureable difference between 1 energy pip. The only advantage that Malaise had pre change was that it (when paired with Wither on spellcasters) could lock an opponents energy at a set amount and allowed for only a few spell/skill casts at a time. This was still easily solved by wep set swap, however.

This is why Wither and Malaise are seeing alot more use in the higher end PVPs now: not only do they sync better with different skills from other professions, but they also provide more indirect pressure than before.

Taking a skill that only provides a degen effect, slightly reducing the degen, and adding a damage aspect to go with the effect in my mind is a buff

ChickenBurger
06-02-2007, 00:34
This thread would seriously be a boring one if everyone thought like you. These kind of posts disgust me seriously... people who add nothing to a discussion and instead tell people what they should do. I can imagine people getting angry from this, so don't play the wise-guy and put '(and please dont follow my post with rampaging insults toward me)
thank you, have a nice day'. Instead if you have the balls to say this, have the balls to face commenting, people like you can learn lots from it.



hmmm....not to sure what you added to the conversation there either o wise try to sound classy man...

i was backign the necro simply saying why cry over spilled milk.....the posts before mine, simply were about Jagged Bones, there were boosts, Rising Bile, Swarm.....Death magic....maybe Anet was tired of seeing 10037349 MM's running around with the exact same build..

please dont follow with rampaging insults about how i post on the internet.....and btw i think i comment just fine, sry to offend you sir, if i didnt have the guts (you shoudl watch yoru language) i wouldnt have posted in the first place

o yeah...have a nice day

ManMadeGod
06-02-2007, 04:31
So you would rather allow them to freely swap wep sets to get rid of the hex than to put a penalty in for doing so?


Just as I said above, sins, ranger or dervishs etc. can not get rid of malaise easily, their main weapons are two hands (not staffs or focus), they can not get rid of maiaise easily. One malaise spammer can shutdown a ranger spike team. (Even in old 8v8 HA).



That's mainly why spells like Malaise and Wither weren't ever used;


Huh? They were popular, but now they are dead.
My alliance (10 guilds) used to bring at least one malaise spammer. But no one uses it now.
I don't see any successful build with Malaise and Wither these days since the NERF.
1 Wither + Malaise necro + 1 e-denial mes + 1 Depravity necro? Come on...
Before the nerf, one blood necro with faintheart and malaise (11~12 in curses is good enough for old malaise) can do significant pressure and did better non-conditional spike damage. I don't care if you think old malaise is bad but I held the hall easily.

Now I don't even have to bring neg energy weapons set before I go RA, HA or GvG.



So what if they don't give as much energy degen; it's not like it was a measureable difference between 1 energy pip.


Old malaise has 200% efficiency.



The only advantage that Malaise had pre change was that it (when paired with Wither on spellcasters) could lock an opponents energy at a set amount and allowed for only a few spell/skill casts at a time. This was still easily solved by wep set swap, however.


Nah, put both Malaise and Wither will make your target easier to swap and remove them for free.
Technically playes always spam malaise, siphon, paracitic bond but not Wither.

With -2 degen makes caster still have +2 pipe, ranger still have +1 pipe. As such they must waste more energy and then swap to make the swap work.
However malaise is spammable, if them keep malaised it's absolutely a deadly plight.

As for Wither, it's not spammable, so people didn't combine it with Malaise (before the nerf) unless you expect to face newbies that don't know focus swapping in RA. Otherwise -4 energy degen means easier/faster to remove by swapping for free.

You may well say new Wither + new Malaise still gives -2 energy degen, but Malaise used to do the same energy degen (and only cost 5) and can be combined with any elite you want. And remember, Wither is not spammable.

Still,

-1 energy degen + very conditional damage << -2 energy degen.
And old Malaise with 11~12 curses is good enough, this makes your build much more flexible. New Maiaise require high attribute level in curses to make the additional damage worth a little (still not easy to trigger tho).

If Anet must change Wither, spare Malaise FGS.

Death Sigma
06-02-2007, 22:12
Just as I said above, sins, ranger or dervishs etc. can not get rid of malaise easily, their main weapons are two hands (not staffs or focus), they can not get rid of maiaise easily. One malaise spammer can shutdown a ranger spike team. (Even in old 8v8 HA).
I still see plenty of meleers use negative energy sets; it's always a good thing to have even if you are melee. How does that make it harder to remove it? What about a caster using a staff? That's two handed isn't it? Also, how can one Necro spamming Malaise shut down a ranger spike team? You're talking ~-10 health degen against Rangers; they have 1 pip left and Expertise to help reduce the energy cost. How is that shut down?




Huh? They were popular, but now they are dead.
My alliance (10 guilds) used to bring at least one malaise spammer. But no one uses it now.
I don't see any successful build with Malaise and Wither these days since the NERF.
1 Wither + Malaise necro + 1 e-denial mes + 1 Depravity necro? Come on...
Before the nerf, one blood necro with faintheart and malaise (11~12 in curses is good enough for old malaise) can do significant pressure and did better non-conditional spike damage. I don't care if you think old malaise is bad but I held the hall easily.
Wha? Old Malaise used to hold halls? Old Malaise used in high-end PVP? Where? I can confidently say before the update that I would see ~1-2 teams per month running a Necro with Malaise. It only seemed to be used as a cover hex. Now GVG and HA is a little more rampant with Malaise + Wither Curse Necros. What's that say?


Now I don't even have to bring neg energy weapons set before I go RA, HA or GvG.
You normally don't have to alot now a days because the meta has stepped away from energy denial. It's moreso melee pressure with support from what I've seen. Still, with the added damage bonus, why would you want to weapon swap? The only thing I could think of would to be to counter the few energy denial builds that are currently still roaming around, and with Malaise there it helps to strengthen these builds.




Old malaise has 200% efficiency.
In terms of energy denial. In terms of overall usage (based on what I've seen in GVG builds, RA builds, and my own experiences with the new spell) it is 100% more efficient.




Nah, put both Malaise and Wither will make your target easier to swap and remove them for free.
Technically playes always spam malaise, siphon, paracitic bond but not Wither.
The old versions of them, anyway. Now if someone dares to remove them (whether it be by exhausting energy or weapon set swapping) they get smacked with ~+100 dmg. I don't neccesarily see that as "for free", and I think that is part of what makes them better. Also, you're right. They can't really spam Wither, I'm just going on the fact that they are easily reapplied to add on the pressure.


With -2 degen makes caster still have +2 pipe, ranger still have +1 pipe. As such they must waste more energy and then swap to make the swap work.
However malaise is spammable, if them keep malaised it's absolutely a deadly plight.
Wouldn't the new version of Malaise work better in making it an "absolutely deadly plight?" You would be damaging them everytime it was removed. Otherwise, it would just stay on there. I highly doubt a Ranger with 2 pips or a caster with 3 pips will still be able to cast spells very quickly. This is what enhances Malaise's pressure; if they swap or exhaust energy, they get damaged and risk it getting reapplied (and get damaged again), if they wait for (reduced regen) energy regen, then they can't do anything for the time they are waiting.


As for Wither, it's not spammable, so people didn't combine it with Malaise (before the nerf) unless you expect to face newbies that don't know focus swapping in RA. Otherwise -4 energy degen means easier/faster to remove by swapping for free.
Again, which is why they added the damage aspect to it. Neither spell was hardly ever used because of this, so ANET decided to punish people removing it by weapon swapping.


You may well say new Wither + new Malaise still gives -2 energy degen, but Malaise used to do the same energy degen (and only cost 5) and can be combined with any elite you want. And remember, Wither is not spammable.
True, but with the new effect Malaise also adds energy degen and more pressure than before. The double-edged sword risk that it presents against the enemy makes up for the less energy degen it does give.


Still,

-1 energy degen + very conditional damage << -2 energy degen.
And old Malaise with 11~12 curses is good enough, this makes your build much more flexible. New Maiaise require high attribute level in curses to make the additional damage worth a little (still not easy to trigger tho).

If Anet must change Wither, spare Malaise FGS.

Malaise does 41 dmg at 12 Curses, and at 12 Curses (which you say is good for the old Malaise), chances are your build is going to involve Curses in it. I think that that level is flexible enough for Malaise to do it's damage and still allow you to dip into other attribute pools if you desire. For a spell that costs 5 energy and can be reapplied every 2 seconds, I see this as the pefect damage without it being overpowered. The effect really shines if you get your opponent to low energy; just what it was suppose to do. The minute you see -41 just plug it right back on. You will start to see -41's every few seconds or so if you are persistant, which definetly adds up. Also, the conditional damage isn't so bad as you may think; people tend to have weak energy management these days and often cast skills carelessly, so it's rather easy to bog down a foe's energy (especially if you combine Malaise with an energy denial type elite like Depravity or some Mesmer hexes).

Malaise and Wither obviously needed a change; it was far too easy to get rid of those hexes. They were considered more or less cover hexes that were just minor annoyances. Now they are much more powerful and won't be used so carelessly, as well as not being removed so easily as they were.

I XM
07-02-2007, 03:02
Malaise and Wither were useless before, now at least you can get damage with it on focus swap.