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Santax
02-02-2007, 20:01
The Old Gods of Tyria
The Old Gods (also known as "the Gods of Tyria" and "The Five") created the world of Tyria, and all the lands of it... Cantha, Elona and even Janthir were created by these gods. But what do we really know of them? The purpose of this thread is to explain, explore and discuss what divinity actually is among the gods of the Guild Wars universe. I'm going to quickly go through the scriptures of the old gods to give you a brief idea of each of them. If you already know them, you may skip this bit.


And when the world rang with the clanging of swords and did fire fall from the skies, Dwayna, goddess of life and air, heard the wailings and pleas of the weak.

And when the rumblings of war did not cease, cameth Her charge Doric, who did prostrate himself at Her feet.

And cast She now a glance upon the war-torn lands and wasted flesh of the fallen, and with tears upon Her cheek did lay her gentle hands upon the prostrate man. Then saith She unto him and all Her charges, "Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.

"For I am your goddess, and I will give blessings to all who follow these teachings."


For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.

Then did Balthazar, god of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.

Then saith he, Lift up thy weapons. For you are My soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity.

And then did release for His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the god into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.


And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.

And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.

Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death.

Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, I am Melandru, Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer.

And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.


Came then Desmina, scorned and exiled by her people. And in her misery and wretchedness, did Desmina curse the gods for abandon all who, like her, admired power and ambition.

And asketh she, Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the God to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?

And rumbled then the earth from far below, and with a terrible groan, split open. Grew then the ground white with frost and ice, and from forth the frozen earth spilled the rotted, skeletal minions of Grenth.

Then did appear the god, and with bony hands outstreched, welcomed the girl into His fold. Saith he, I am your god. Follow where I lead, come whence I call, and the rotted corpses of the dead will be yours to control. And swearing allegiance in life and beyond, did Desmina thence become the god's first follower.


And it was, that a stranger came to the village of Wren seeking shelter and employment. Though young in years her body was stooped and twisted, her flesh eaten by disease.

"Ye have the mark of plague upon ye, said the citizen named Gallrick. Leave this place lest you sicken our people."

'I've lost my family and my home, cried the desperate woman. Have you no heart?"

Yet each persone, in turn, did look away.

Then from the crowd came a young woman, Sara. She looked upon the woman with pity. "If you need help," said Sara, "I will give it." And Sara did approach the gnarled, bent woman and did offer her a healing hand.

Then the sickend woman pulled from body the robes of plague, revealing Herself to be the goddess Lyssa.

The people of Wren fell to their knees, begging Lyssa's mercy. But lifting Sara gently, saith She, "True beauty is measured not by appearance but by actions and deeds. Many have eyes, but few have seen. Of all here, you saw the beauty behind the illusion. And you alone shall be blessed with My gifts."

Abaddon, Lord of the Depths

And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.

On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.

And prayed Jadoth, "Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.
Abaddon was the former god of secrets and water. He was charged by the other five gods to give the gift of magic - Preservation, Destruction, Aggression and Denial - to the people of Tyria, however he gave all of them all of these powers, and war quickly ensued between the human tribes. A war between Abaddon and his followers, the Margonites ensued, and he managed to depose two as-of-yet unnamed gods, before the combined might of the Old Gods struck him down at the Mouth of Torment, a battle that transformed the Crystal Sea into a desolate wasteland where the serpentine Forgotten would settle. King Doric came to Dwayna, unaware of the secret war between the gods, begging for a way to bring an end to the wars between the human tribes.

I personally believe that at this point, the gods activated a volcano off the Tarnished Coast, creating Abaddon's Mouth, and threw the Bloodstones into there. When it erupted, it sent the Bloodstones flying into all corners of the world of Tyria, destroying all nearby human settlements and creating the Ring of Fire Island Chain. However, it is uncertain how the Titans, the Door of Komalie and the Mursaat fit into this.

The Goddess of Truth

And so it came to pass that Spearmarshal Kormir, hero of all Elona, was pulled into the inky blackness surrounding the God of Secrets. And though her sight had been robbed, her body wracked, and her spirit flayed, she remained resolute.

And so was she joined within the Realm of Torment by fearless allies, and other great heroes, who stood at her side as she sought to thwart Nightfall. Together did they battle through Fear, and Anguish, and Madness, until at last they stood before the face of the imprisoned god; he who had challenged the Five and lost; he who threatened to break the chains placed upon him by the other gods; he who now sought to bring Nightfall to the world: the dark god, Abaddon.

And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat.

Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.

And so by mortal hands did a new immortal enter creation.
Kormir and her Sunspears, along with the Order of Whispers and the Forgotten defeated Abaddon when he tried to return and destroy Elona in 1075AE. She was blinded at the battle of Gandara where The Hunger, one of Abaddon's demons devoured her eyes before taking her prisoner. She became a god in a process fondly known in these forums as "kormiring" - assuming the mantle of a god while simultaneously defeating them. She now stands as one of the Six Gods.

The Unseen Ones
The Unseen Ones are a race of creatures held divine by the White Mantle, a small cult in Kryta. Their true name is the Mursaat. At one point, the White Mantle had a huge following, and was poised to conquer all of Tyria, but they were defeated by the Titans, as forseen in the Flameseeker Prophecies. It is theorised that the Mursaat were once worshippers themselves of the Old Gods, but found something in the Crystal Desert that compromised this. This thread aims to explore this possibility and take this into account during discussion. For more information on the Mursaat, see this (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437646) thread.

Other Deities
This is the important bit. These gods question the existance of the current Gods of Tyria
Dhuum

Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here. My vigil over these lands was broken for a time, and I can feel a resurgence of the old taint. Four horsemen approach, riders of Dhuum. Destroy them before they can reclaim this place and throw the underworld into chaos!
Dhuum was the God of Death before Grenth. He was "kormired" around the time of the Exodus (Grenth gained his first follower, Desmina, around 48 years before the Exodus) and erased from history. He and Menzies, half brother of Balthazar, attempted to aid Abaddon in bringing Nightfall upon the world. It is unknown whether he will attempt returning to the mortal world again.

Menzies
Menzies is the half-brother of Balthazar. He and Dhuum, former god of death, attempted to aid Abaddon in bringing Nightfall upon the world.

The Older Gods
Although it is stated that the world of Tyria was the first world created by the Old Gods, and after the Exodus the Gods created other worlds, recent findings have revealed that there are worlds before ours.

... they belonged to a most effulgent mage from an exceptionnaly advanced civilization. He was able to traverse through multiple planes of existence, some of which predate the one you currently call your native soil. No, I won't tell you more. No, you can't fetch anything for me. No, I don't need your help at all, thank you. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have "big person" quandaries to ruminate over...
This implies that there are possibly many, many worlds before ours and also many, many gods. It is also worth noting that the Forgotten were "summoned" to Tyria, not created there. This may also explain why they are now extinct thanks to the Margonites on our planet, and yet manage to remain populous in the Realm of Torment.

Tuor Son Of Huor
05-02-2007, 07:55
The Door of Komalie leads to the Realm of Torrent where Abaddon was imprisoned - essentially, it is his Cell-Door. Therefore the Mursaat can be seen as the Guards of the Door of Komalie; preventing anything from getting in...


.... Or getting out.

Sir Jack
05-02-2007, 09:52
Notes:
- Grenth and Lyssa went to Cantha and/Or Elona. They were god(ess) before that time. While the exact time of their journey is unknown, it's likely they went there before the listed dates.
- Unless the Doric in Dwayna's text is Doric, father of Doric, or just a guy with the same name as Doric, being 116 years old minimum is quite a bit for a human. Granted he'd be blessed by Dwayna, it could be it's still the same guy who later went to plea fot the Gods.
- My guess the Gods existed before that time. Abaddon's scripture indicates that. His scriptures are from 1 BE but he already knows about Abaddon. Marga coast inhabitants were devout followers of Abaddon since ~175 BE, when they started ruling the Neverending Ocean. Beating the Luxon and Forgotten Armada without divine help? (Note: beating as in outclassing them, not beating them in battle).
- All the scriptures of the Five Gods (safe Dwayna) are dated 48 BE. This would indicate one of the following: There was a huge coup on the gods before that which only Dwayna survived or the Gods decided to reveal themselves at that time.

Zaa Nayazu
05-02-2007, 15:09
I vote for the rest of the Gods to have revealed themselves at around 48BE.

I also Have a question that I havent been able to find the answer to, even if I remotely remember been answered before.

Ranger Nietzsche
05-02-2007, 15:46
First, verifiable in-game the scriptures of Lyssa are dated 45BE. So in that case she is the last of the gods to reveal themselves.

As for dorics age. The monument in king's watch states that he became king of ascalon "more than 100 years prior" and it is dated 1AE. So Doric was crowned king sometime before 100 BE. Note also that it marks the passing of Doric, and indicates that when they used Doric's blood to seal the bloodstones that he was killed in the process.

So it is likely it is the same Doric and that he lived a long long time.

Quintus Antonius
05-02-2007, 16:17
Is it possible, much like real scriptures, that the events spoken of happened earlier or later than we think? For instance, when was Jesus born? We don't know, even though we use the BC/AD system widely, Jesus could have been born in a 10 to 20 years +/- date from 1AD. We can't tell simply from the date. In order to learn when Jesus was born and when he was crucified, we have to examine the reign of King Herod the Great for his birth (Herod was an old man at the birth of Christ, so we know it had to be before his death) and for Christ's crucifixion, we have to look at when Pontius Pilatus was administrator of Judea.

The same is true for Doric. We have to place his story next to the known date of the gods exodus and Abaddon's defeat from sources that witnessed it (Forgotten, Glint, Margonites), and compare that to other events such as Doric's reign in Ascalon.

Basically, we'll never know the "exact" date any of this stuff happened. We can only give a close estimate with a +/- margin of error.

I don't think that the scriptures can be counted as totally reliable on the date. Once again, let's look at the Bible. Most of what people think was written by the disciples of Christ (the Gospels) were not actually written by them. They were fishermen, they couldn't read or write. The Gospels were written anywhere from 10 to 100 years after Christ's death. Just like war veterns don't release their memoirs till 20 or 30 years after the war, the scriptures are not necessarily written in that year, or even anywhere close to that year when the event happened.

Tuor Son Of Huor
05-02-2007, 19:28
While you may be right, Quint; since we're here to discuss things scientifically, we must use the accepted convention of measuring time. The Exodus is a definite point in time, and thats why history is measured in relation to it.

The dates given by the Bible (or any other holy book for that matter) have been verified by scientific methods to be accurate - or in a few cases, inaccurate. Since we lack a form of scientific testing, we should then accept that the timeline given in-game is, for the most part, accurate.

Occam's Razor: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

The simple solution here, is that the dates we are given are the correct ones.

Quintus Antonius
05-02-2007, 20:43
That's not true. The dates of most holy books are hotly (VERY hotly) contested, even to this day. First of all, how do people know when the Exodus was? No one but the gods and the Forgotten were there. And since Doric died in the making of the Bloodstones (according to the King's Watch monument) he didn't exactly return to tell his tale of the Exodus. The Margonites were pulled down with Abaddon, and the gods wiped out all knowledge of him. That means that people obviously didn't know about the Exodus because of the battle with Abaddon, because they wiped out all knowledge of him.

There are no dates given in the Bible. And the things we are given are not solid and vary. The commonly accepted date for Christ's birth is 1AD, for instance, but that can't be because Herod was dead by this time, and the change from BC to AD didn't happen for a thousand years later and didn't take into account year "0".

The same thing has to be applied here. We know the gods left, granted, but because Cantha, Elona, and Tyria use different types of dating, it his highly, highly likely that there was another calendar system in place before the Exodus. The BE and AE system only works if there is foreknowledge of the event from which to base the change, which there wasn't.

Tuor Son Of Huor
06-02-2007, 05:57
First of all, how do people know when the Exodus was? No one but the gods and the Forgotten were there.

The people of Arah knew the Gods weren't there any more. They just went by Dwayna's cottage and saw the lights out and the furniture was gone.

Ranger Nietzsche
06-02-2007, 06:23
thats totally how it happened

Tuor Son Of Huor
06-02-2007, 21:23
:P Well, you get my point - The Gods were living in Arah before the Exoidus, so there *were* witnesses to document the exact day of the Exodus.

Quintus Antonius
06-02-2007, 21:35
No, humans didn't start building cities around Arah for about 100 years later when Orr was founded. So that means huamsn didn't find out first hand until at least that time.

Gmr Leon
06-02-2007, 21:43
Well actually Orr became an independent nation 2 years after the Exodus occurred. Which would either mean the Orrian peninsula had pre-built cities that they explored and began to live in or they were around the area for a bit, liked it, and just started doing this and that.

It's a bit foggy whether or not they were there at the Exodus so we can't say for sure.

Tuor Son Of Huor
07-02-2007, 13:31
Well actually Orr became an independent nation 2 years after the Exodus occurred. Which would either mean the Orrian peninsula had pre-built cities that they explored and began to live in or they were around the area for a bit, liked it, and just started doing this and that.

It's a bit foggy whether or not they were there at the Exodus so we can't say for sure.

Why is it foggy? Your explanation and reasoning are 100% plausible.

To say that an empire (pretty big word, btw) sprung up from nothing in less than 2 years is stretching things: There *had* to be human settlements in and around Arah *before* the exodus.

Cu Chulain
24-02-2007, 15:03
Has anyone considered that perhaps it just a matter of there were humans living around Arah but were not permitted near it. When the Gods left, they noticed and went into the city, thinking that the Gods were just away for a time and would be back, decided to be the caretakers until then. This would also mean they would need to defend it and so would need a unified army and so the Kingdom of Orr was founded.

Just a thought.

Zaa Nayazu
24-02-2007, 16:30
The Staff of the Mist and the Scepter of Orr were created before the Exodus. So Orr was already there before the Gods left Tyria. Also, the Prophecies manual says the Gods "Walked" amongst mortals. I have to find where exactly on the manual it says that but I'm sure of it. And I know the name of the scpter could have changed later on, but it does reflect who it was giving to when they were created. They might not have been "officially" known as Orr when the Scepter was created, but it was to their predecesors(sp).

Tuor Son Of Huor
26-02-2007, 00:39
The Staff of the Mist and the Scepter of Orr were created before the Exodus. So Orr was already there before the Gods left Tyria. Also, the Prophecies manual says the Gods "Walked" amongst mortals. I have to find where exactly on the manual it says that but I'm sure of it. And I know the name of the scpter could have changed later on, but it does reflect who it was giving to when they were created. They might not have been "officially" known as Orr when the Scepter was created, but it was to their predecesors(sp).

/bow

This man has got the goods - therefore, we *can* say with absolute accuraccy when the Exodus occurred

Zaa Nayazu
26-02-2007, 15:45
/bow

This man has got the goods - therefore, we *can* say with absolute accuraccy when the Exodus occurred

I dont know if you are serious or "sarcastic". Anyways, to be clear, my point was that Orr had to have been already established before the Exodus happen.

Quintus Antonius
26-02-2007, 16:09
I'm not entirely sure what you meant either, Tuor. Can you clarify?

Sir Jack
28-02-2007, 13:22
Reread the OP's post, one thing bothered me (besides things I pointed out earlier):



Dhuum was the God of Death before Grenth. He was "kormired" around the time of the Exodus (Grenth gained his first follower, Desmina, around 48 years before the Exodus) and erased from history

IMO, Dhuum wasn't Kormired. He's still around controlling his army. Abaddon is only around inside Kormir, where she keeps him in check.
One possibility would be that Dhuum's worshippers are freeing him from Grenth by invading the UW, but if that were the case, the huge amount of Margonite, Demon and Titan armies still present in the RoT and DoA would have sprung Abaddon free the second Kormir absorbed him.
My guess is Grenth took over the mantle as God of Death in a different way. My theory would be that Grenth challenged Dhuum to a "Godly Duel", where the God's current power is at stake and the winner walks away with both.
Could be what the 2 brothers from the Twin Serpents Mountains (/lake?) were trying to do as well, but since they weren't Gods, the duel just didn't take place and Grenth iced (pun intended) them for defying a God.

Quintus Antonius
28-02-2007, 14:20
I don't know. Think about the Reaper of the Chaos planes, he is quite specific in his usage of the word "destroyed". If the gods are indeed like the daedra of the Elder Scrolls, which isn't too farfetched, ANet borrowed ideas from a lot of places, then the gods can't die, but can be destroyed. Upon being destroyed, they shrink back to an "essence", pretty much just a disembodied consciousness, and slowly regrow until they are at full power again. Think about it, Dhuum was overthrown thousands of years ago, but he is just now making a resurgance? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless he was immoblized for a time and was "regrowing" his power.

Zaa Nayazu
28-02-2007, 17:57
Or if he was waiting for the perfect time to show up, like when another God draws attention to himself, ie... Abbadon.

Quintus Antonius
28-02-2007, 18:03
But he was causing problems before Abaddon made himself known.