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View Full Version : On the First Day of 8v8 my true showed me



Wuzzman
10-02-2007, 03:09
Blood Spike. Lol, I expected the iway warrior to come rolling back but I guess all the iwayers left during the 6v6 change. Lol, I'm going to log back on to check the Hall of Heroes metagame but after my first and ONLY random way(one noob with no plan is good enough to ruin my day) and the 20 minutes if observing what is being spamed in local chat blood spike is the most dominate build. Everything else is sad attempts at balance builds...if you notice any builds balance or spike please tell us so we can discuss(full of the build is nice to have description is nice to have:grin: ).

halfthought
10-02-2007, 03:44
IMO, 8v8 was never fun in my oppinion, even more gimmicky then 6v6, at least in 6v6, balanced still existed

Tiyuri
10-02-2007, 04:43
IMO, 8v8 was never fun in my oppinion, even more gimmicky then 6v6, at least in 6v6, balanced still existed

I played balance all night, had no trouble beating any gimmick, and fought a lot of other balanced teams, don't know what HA you were playing.

B Ephekt
10-02-2007, 04:44
IMO, 8v8 was never fun in my oppinion, even more gimmicky then 6v6, at least in 6v6, balanced still existed
Balanced existed in 8v8... you just had to get past Broken Tower to see it.

Although there were a lot of spike builds out tonight, I did see quite a few balanced teams. IMO, facing more than the same thing over and over is nice for a change, even if it is bspike. I missed playing infuser too.

6v6 was garbage, it completely ruined tombs. Here's to hoping Anet realizes 8v8 was what Guild Wars pvp was meant to be.

Tiyuri
10-02-2007, 04:50
Balanced existed in 8v8... you just had to get past Broken Tower to see it.

Although there were a lot of spike builds out tonight, I did see quite a few balanced teams. IMO, facing more than the same thing over and over is nice for a change, even if it is bspike. I missed playing infuser too.

6v6 was garbage, it completely ruined tombs. Here's to hoping Anet realizes 8v8 was what Guild Wars pvp was meant to be.

Agreed, fighting the gimmicks is worth it for the excellent balanced matches I had in-between. In 6v6 there were no balanced teams at all.

I really enjoyed myself tonight, the first time since old 8v8.

Buddah
10-02-2007, 06:11
In 6v6 there were no balanced teams at all.

I call BS right there.

There was balanced teams. Month back someone made the same claim and I pointed out a few guilds that were running their takes on balanced in 6v6. Just because they didn't stand out in your mind doesn't mean there were none.

B Ephekt
10-02-2007, 07:14
There were builds in 6v6 that tried to be balanced, but there was no true balance in 6v6. I ran 'balanced' (if that's what you want to call any build without 4 characters of the same class) exclusively in 6v6, but would often lose due to an inability to counter a certain build skill-wise. That's not balanced; balance is a build that can naturally counter many things, and allows the team to simply outplay their opponents. Every single 6v6 build out there relied on overloading one thing - melee, hexes, defense, etc while the player limit prevented you from taking counters to more than 2 or 3 builds. Eventually you would face a build you simply couldn't counter.

6v6 was build wars, plain and simple. Sadly there are so many scrubs that can't beat spikes, 8v8 might not stick around.

chanxeng
10-02-2007, 07:24
Ran into ranger spike today :undecided: Saw many iway-ers lfg as well....its still too early to tell

windcaller
10-02-2007, 08:28
i hope mesmers will get back on the floating line with 8v8...

Ryuujinx
10-02-2007, 08:44
i hope mesmers will get back on the floating line with 8v8...

I had a couple builds ran today involving mesmers was quite fun.

We eventualy settled for this for a while til we had to go.

Shock Warrior (evicerate and the like, before all this fancy shadow stepping came about :P) <- Me I <3 Shock War
SS Necro < Yes SS, we were epxecting mee heavy teams so why not cater to the warrior/dervish/thumper train? =P
Grenth's Dervish < nerfed, but now it's balanced =P
E-Sure Mes/SH Ele <we never decided which we liked more.
SS/Warder
RC Prot
ZB < Originaly Divert Hexes but noticed a um.. lack of hex-heavy builds
LoD/Infuse

god 8v8 was fun..

andrewf
10-02-2007, 09:13
Agreed, fighting the gimmicks is worth it for the excellent balanced matches I had in-between. In 6v6 there were no balanced teams at all.

I really enjoyed myself tonight, the first time since old 8v8.

My guild has been running balance for awhie...and took favor for Taiwan a few times too.

richo
10-02-2007, 10:20
what did i saw yesterday

R8+ IWAY LF xx
R3 iway lf xx
R9+ iwat lf xx
r6+ iway lf xx
Bspike lfg
r6 iway LFG
r9 IWAY lfg
R8 rspike LF XX

this was about all yesterday evenening, i already miss 6 v 6

edit: i do hope we get alot of balance groups in HA soon else i wont bother playing HA with all the iway again...

Xunlai Agent
10-02-2007, 13:14
there are much less balanced teams in 8 v 8 than in 6 v 6 from what I have seen so far

Almas Darksoul
10-02-2007, 13:39
Build I ran (with TasH guild) was an Invoke Lightning Air Spike - we had tested it in 6v6 in advance. Got three hall wins on first run, lost at courtyard the next two runs (to the same team, very frustrating).

Basic build was:
Invoke Lightning
Lightning Hammer
Lightning Strike
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Air Attunement
Resurrection Signet

On 5 elementalists. One had Godspeed/Windborn Speed, one had Godspeed/Gale, one with Aegis/Extinguish, one with Aegis/Draw Conditions, one with Ward vs Foes/Ward of Stability. Sixth slot was a Water Elementalist.

Rapid spikes with Invoke Lightning have the potential to kill 3 targets at once (although this is a rare occurance due to rival positioning, armor of nearby targets and randomness of next target, when it happens it's freaking hilarious). Lightning Hammer can be spammed if GoLE is used well, allowing for frequent spikes to keep the enemy on their toes.

Other interesting spike builds I saw included a Rt/R ranger spike (Nightmare Weapon) using four spikers, an orders necro and three defensive characters. Very strong due to having lots of hard rezz skills and defensive spirits constantly being played, as well as a highly damaging spike.

A tip for balanced builds is to carry a reasonable level of disruption (Choking Gas is great for this) to allow your team to stop the first couple of spikes. Against Ritualist and Necromancer spike builds, you need to apply pressure quick and hard to be able to wear them down - this is most annoying in killcount maps where you'll be trying to pressure one team while the other one has a field day spiking you. Be very wary of the position of enemy teams.
Also, take characters who can solo or duo effectively - in Halls this is very useful for winning Alliance Battle Halls and Relic Run. Characters who can solo can spread the enemy defense very thin by pressuring both their blocking groups and their relic running. This hurts spike builds even more as it ensures they can't spike at all, but even other balanced builds can be caught off guard.

Quite cute to see the prevalence of Icy Veins/Soul Barbs spikes, ran into 2-3 of those. Ritualist Spikes can also be very annoying since their damage skills deal shockingly large amounts - I would suggest a 2sec cast time on some of these. Aside from that, shutting down their ability to lay spirits can hurt them a lot.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2007, 16:44
Heh I was amazed - the 1st team we faced when we entered last night was [MATH] take one guess what they were running.

Alot of interesting matches, on killcount we faced a Flesh golem team which absoutley crushed us... altho I think on any map but killcount they would not be nearly as dangerous. Almas speaks truly - bloodspike is not so difficult to counter with decent disruption and alot of pressure.


All in all I think I faced more unique/varied builds in one night than I have thru all of 6v6.

thedrjay
10-02-2007, 17:16
It's been a beautiful thing so far. Here's hoping they keep it.

richo
10-02-2007, 17:30
Alot of interesting matches, on killcount we faced a Flesh golem team which absoutley crushed us... altho I think on any map but killcount they would not be nearly as dangerous. Almas speaks truly - bloodspike is not so difficult to counter with decent disruption and alot of pressure.


All in all I think I faced more unique/varied builds in one night than I have thru all of 6v6.

today the madnes already cooled down abit and i ran a few very old and rare builds like a build around 1 touch ranger, obsidian flame spike, flesh golem factory and a few spikes it worked out better then when i went asleep yesterday with the thought about iway...

B Ephekt
10-02-2007, 18:00
The people already crying about IWAY are seriously making me laugh. I'm actually refreshed to be fighting against IWAY; after months of playing against only 3 builds even IWAY is interesting again.

Call me crazy but I'd much rather fight IWAY, balanced and a diverse selection of spikes than the same 3 builds over and over.

Tucks
10-02-2007, 18:20
People who cry about IWAY = talking out of their ***.

Seriously, its about as powerful as a kitten on dope now.

All of the defense comes from the lines and trappers, rush them at the start, kill the necro's over and over, when they are out of sigs move to the trappers, then warriors. One necro up alone is pretty much screwed, so just beat them down one after the other. They have no prot, only traps for defense, and there is 101 ways to get around trappers.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2007, 18:26
Wait who's complaining about IWAY? As far as I know I mentioned facing MATH and richo said he had dreams about IWAY.

I don't think either can be seen as "ZOMG IGAY=UMPOSHIBLE 2 BEET"

Vexed Arcanist
10-02-2007, 19:04
All in all I think I faced more unique/varied builds in one night than I have thru all of 6v6.

While I can't disagree on what you experienced I can equate it to your luck.

Every "first night" of a new change will see many more variations on team builds than 3 days after, weeks after, etc.

Within 3 days of the first day of the change the team builds will squarely fit "FOTM". Blood spike and Gaze spike are already top contenders, while Blood Spike has a harder time once in HoH due to the new variations of HoH over simply holding.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2007, 19:22
While I can't disagree on what you experienced I can equate it to your luck.

Every "first night" of a new change will see many more variations on team builds than 3 days after, weeks after, etc.

Within 3 days of the first day of the change the team builds will squarely fit "FOTM". Blood spike and Gaze spike are already top contenders, while Blood Spike has a harder time once in HoH due to the new variations of HoH over simply holding.

Agreed it's mainly due to people trying out new things etc... but it was a breath of fresh air to be sure - I havn't seen 10+ID's in a VERY long time.

Aside from that - 8v8 there is more room to be innovative, sure you'll meet alot of the same FOTM's; but you will still face the odd builds more often than you did 6v6.

digidy
10-02-2007, 20:06
Just so you know [MATH] doesnt run iway its not even in the Bar. we were running 4 rao axe wars thus the need for pets and the trapper isnt there for def hes there for a couple key skills. Just so you know we love 8v8 and if Ha stays 8v8 so do we if its 6v6 id rather pve alrdy got my rank so do all the others.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2007, 20:21
In all seriousness, what good IWAY team actually uses the skill IWAY anymore?

Aside from that, good match; sorry one of our players flamed you guys after you beat us.

digidy
10-02-2007, 23:31
We had some nice runs last night. 2 full runs to ha only 2 lose at the very last sec cap. all in all very nice to see alot of old player coming out of the woodwork to play ha again. Been over a year and a half since we had that much fun playing hopefully changes are here 2 stay.

melandrus elite
10-02-2007, 23:38
My guild ran rit spike and won halls over bspike, a savannah heat spikish build and a pressure running 2 spirit strength weapon rits. total fame=43 time=2 hours IWAY's we faced and pwned=16 (including QuCo)

Tiyuri
10-02-2007, 23:49
My guild ran rit spike and won halls over bspike, a savannah heat spikish build and a pressure running 2 spirit strength weapon rits. total fame=43 time=2 hours IWAY's we faced and pwned=16 (including QuCo)


43 fame in 2 hours? ouch.

B Ephekt
11-02-2007, 00:50
My guild ran rit spike and won halls over bspike, a savannah heat spikish build and a pressure running 2 spirit strength weapon rits. total fame=43 time=2 hours IWAY's we faced and pwned=16 (including QuCo)

How did you beat 16 IWAY teams and only get 43 fame? Won a lot of Underworld matches?

Xunlai Agent
11-02-2007, 01:00
rit spike rit spike rit spike and oh rit spike yeah...

halfthought
11-02-2007, 02:13
rit spike rit spike rit spike and oh rit spike yeah...

yeah I agree with that, 70% of all teams we fought were non-balanced, and I thought 6v6 had WAY more balanced. I got to halls 12 times so far (won Thrice :P)... in halls I think we fought.......maybe 4 balanced teams.

Bring back 6v6!


Balanced existed in 8v8... you just had to get past Broken Tower to see it.

Although there were a lot of spike builds out tonight, I did see quite a few balanced teams. IMO, facing more than the same thing over and over is nice for a change, even if it is bspike. I missed playing infuser too.

6v6 was garbage, it completely ruined tombs. Here's to hoping Anet realizes 8v8 was what Guild Wars pvp was meant to be.

oh yes, "alot" :rolleyes: . I've been past broken 95% of the times ive ran this week. Balance IS alot more uncommon.... what build were you running? I bet it wasnt balanced.

B Ephekt
11-02-2007, 02:35
oh yes, "alot" :rolleyes: . I've been past broken 95% of the times ive ran this week. Balance IS alot more uncommon.... what build were you running? I bet it wasnt balanced.
I was talking about the old 8v8, if you didn't pick up on it the first time. I know for a fact that there was a lot of balanced teams back then.

This weekend I've ran balanced and rspike.

halfthought
11-02-2007, 04:23
I was talking about the old 8v8, if you didn't pick up on it the first time. I know for a fact that there was a lot of balanced teams back then.

This weekend I've ran balanced and rspike.

back then

Currently, many skills are balanced to suit 6v6, and changing it to 8v8 will undoubtedly result in overflow of gimmicks

melandrus elite
11-02-2007, 05:05
the problem with no balance is because there is no holding so a team that can spike every 4 seconds on a kill count map has become much more efficient.

ANET bring back holding (on Courtyard at least)!

Shinjinbukai
11-02-2007, 07:13
I LOVE 8v8! It actually has a lot of builds that work, we just have to wait a bit, right now you all are seeing the builds because that is what the "norm" is making, the guild teams are running the GvG builds with Air Pressure and more Balance. I admit the Rit Spike, Bspike, and Iway seem like it all, but I just watched 3 HA battles and the teams that won were Balanced or with 2 Air eles who knew what they were doing. Most of you probably didn't play during the old 8v8 but once you get used to it its a blast! Its bringing back my memories of the good old days. :D

And on a side note- Every Single tournament and GH match is 8v8, and when I GvG it isn't all Bspike, because good teams know how to counter. If you want proof just watch other 8v8 games that aren't HA.

ImSoToast
11-02-2007, 09:15
back then

Currently, many skills are balanced to suit 6v6, and changing it to 8v8 will undoubtedly result in overflow of gimmicks

Okay seriously are you playing a different Ha?

So what is balanced in 6v6? As far as I can see its impossible to run a balanced in a 6 man team.

Oh wait 2 rao thumpers, 2 rits and 2 necs was balanced wasn't it. No thats right 2 rao thumpers 2 aoe smiters and 2 monks was balanced. Hm... still trying to think of this magical balanced build that was being run in 6v6 that somehow I didnt face.

Well see I would think balanced would utilize at least 6 of the 10 professions available in the game. Well perhaps at least 5 different professions?

For the new 8v8 Ha the only really thing I see being run a lot are rit spikes. Blood spikes here and there but not too many good ones. Most melee heavy teams are pretty easy to counter, so basically rit spikes are hardest, for now. Still, I have seen more variations of iway or rit spike than spirit way or zergway in the last month or so.

Midnight De Blood
11-02-2007, 13:00
Well see I would think balanced would utilize at least 6 of the 10 professions available in the game. Well perhaps at least 5 different professions?

i have to say that this is not happening on a grand scale of things in HOH at max most of the so called balance teams run 4 but more so 3 classes = sin, ele, monk
once in awhile there are varibles such as a rit or necro or others but these are the non-spike teams i see winning HoH but normally its a spike team that gets it and since the update i have seen ALOT

MiStA PriNCe
11-02-2007, 14:06
8v8 is fantastic so far to me, by far the most enjoyable time I've had in HA for a very VERY long time. 8v8 left when i was still relatively a noob, and after 6v6 I amassed more playing knowledge. With the reintroduction of 8v8, It's fun to play from a different level of playstyle and it really feels good to play classic builds with newer twists

keltik
11-02-2007, 16:25
My guild ran three different balanced builds this weekend, and only ran into two really good spikes (one blood and one other) that we were unable to beat. And our matches against other teams often ran a little bit longer than the 2 or 3 minutes a match in 6v6...It was a lot more fun, because it wasn't just about the damage, but also about the strategy to win on each map than during 6v6....

Tacitus
11-02-2007, 18:19
So many new builds i want to run now its 8v8 its a shame that kill count maps change the style of game so much. Hex, condition pressure and shutdown are still not viable options because the game wants us to get actual damage so we can score points by killing. If the kill counts were removed it would be a lot better but overall 8v8 is better by far than 6v6.

B Ephekt
11-02-2007, 18:36
back thenWow, nice to see that you picked up on that, since it was the context of our entire discourse.


Currently, many skills are balanced to suit 6v6, and changing it to 8v8 will undoubtedly result in overflow of gimmicksI doubt many skills got balanced specifically for 6v6 considering that they have to be playable in GvG as well. What's happening right now is that kill count is making spike builds attractive, and a lot of people are getting to play all the stupid gimmick builds they used to play in 8v8. For example, I personally quit playing ranger spike after the dual orders nerf, but have been enjoying messing around with it this weekend.

You can't make an accurate assessment of the would-be 8v8 meta game based on a test event. Use some common sense.

Now back to the original comment that you apparently got lost on... there was balanced in the old 8v8, there will be balanced in the new 8v8. Anet just needs to work out a few issues like kill count and maybe a few skill balances. Again, use some common sense; this is a test weekend after all.

Wuzzman
11-02-2007, 20:39
I had a couple builds ran today involving mesmers was quite fun.

We eventualy settled for this for a while til we had to go.

Shock Warrior (evicerate and the like, before all this fancy shadow stepping came about :P) <- Me I <3 Shock War
SS Necro < Yes SS, we were epxecting mee heavy teams so why not cater to the warrior/dervish/thumper train? =P
Grenth's Dervish < nerfed, but now it's balanced =P
E-Sure Mes/SH Ele <we never decided which we liked more.
SS/Warder
RC Prot
ZB < Originaly Divert Hexes but noticed a um.. lack of hex-heavy builds
LoD/Infuse

god 8v8 was fun..

darn I always loved hating those three monk backlines. I may actually take the time to dismantle them with my mesmer again. Balance so far is being run by guild groups and not at the pug level...which means 90% of the teams are some sort of spike and you only see a balance team past broken tower. Lol, just like the old searing flames groups dominating the first 2 maps but only seeing holding builds after that. While balance builds are being run, for it to be a true factor for the everyday ha player it must be organized, yes a team of random players can organize on vent and yes I know how unbelievable that is, and ran successfully by those players. That is the test. Its not about how many guild groups can do balance but how many average players will be able to form one (yes even if it takes an hour or requires rank) which will be the ultimate decider on whether or not 8v8 stays.

Tristan Chapin
12-02-2007, 12:44
BTW folks, the popular melee spike builds (generally involving 2 sins, some elems with miscellaneous AOE tools, and a 2-3 monk backline) is a definitively balanced build, and a lot of teams are running it.

Domina Spellbinder
12-02-2007, 14:04
Didn't like it, only played on fridaynight. Guild also didn't like it. 321Spike requires about the same skill as wanderlust.

laf
12-02-2007, 14:36
feedback is a stinky cologne

ImSoToast
12-02-2007, 20:28
Didn't like it, only played on fridaynight. Guild also didn't like it. 321Spike requires about the same skill as wanderlust.


See posts like this are awesome! F'n kidding. So spikes are 3,2,1 spike huh?

So I guess your guild just got sick of holding halls with spike builds right? No offense, but can your guild even hold halls with "those ****ty spikes?"

See if you think ALL spikes are 3,2,1 spike, well that's your problem, and that is why you will never beat spikes consistently.

Ya some spikes, esp blood and caster spikes are basically 3,2,1, that is if you have a ****ing awesome caller. Than yes lots of spikes could be "dumbed" down to a count simply.

Really only spike I saw that I really would maybe complain about is a couple of rit spikes. Simply because they do more damage faster than is mathmetically possible to heal through. Other than that spikes are one trick ponies that are pretty easy to counter. Most spikes just run into them and watch them fall apart, pressure them and watch them stop spiking and heal instead, etc....

And btw, 3,2,1 spike has soo many more variations than that wanderlust you quoted. So at least in my opinion i will take all these 3,2,1 spikers over the single spirit spammers that Ha has become in the last 2 months. BUt **** I'm the weird one that remembers the fotm's being run in 6v6 while others claim that fotm's exsist soley in 8v8.

Parker Bsb
12-02-2007, 20:44
One thing to point out - people are not used to 8v8 and the new map changes. Of course people will run easy builds to get used to the changes then we'll se a gradual shift towards more pressure or balanced build being ran.

Wuzzman
12-02-2007, 22:47
See posts like this are awesome! F'n kidding. So spikes are 3,2,1 spike huh?

So I guess your guild just got sick of holding halls with spike builds right? No offense, but can your guild even hold halls with "those ****ty spikes?"

See if you think ALL spikes are 3,2,1 spike, well that's your problem, and that is why you will never beat spikes consistently.

Ya some spikes, esp blood and caster spikes are basically 3,2,1, that is if you have a ****ing awesome caller. Than yes lots of spikes could be "dumbed" down to a count simply.

Really only spike I saw that I really would maybe complain about is a couple of rit spikes. Simply because they do more damage faster than is mathmetically possible to heal through. Other than that spikes are one trick ponies that are pretty easy to counter. Most spikes just run into them and watch them fall apart, pressure them and watch them stop spiking and heal instead, etc....

And btw, 3,2,1 spike has soo many more variations than that wanderlust you quoted. So at least in my opinion i will take all these 3,2,1 spikers over the single spirit spammers that Ha has become in the last 2 months. BUt **** I'm the weird one that remembers the fotm's being run in 6v6 while others claim that fotm's exsist soley in 8v8.


lol. I would at least state how complicated a spike is then continuely refering to the top ha guilds that play the build. If people are pugging it then the roles are simple, you can not deny that. What you was ranting about was the elitisness of the people playing the build. Again I say this not to take away from the fact that 8v8 has several more fotm builds for people to pug for then 6v6 and it ultimately allows for more builds to be created then 6v6, I wouldn't go screaming and ranting when someone isn't impressed when the only new thing pugs learned is how to count.

Ranger Nietzsche
12-02-2007, 22:56
Just cuz PUGs run a build doesn't mean the roles are simple.

A PUG spike won't get past the first relic run.

Good Guild groups can hold halls with spikes.

So clearly there must be learning curve in there SOMEWHERE.


And anyone who thinks there isn't balance should check out the Sheer number of 3 sins 2 eles 3 monk/rit backlines that are out right now.

R A N D O M
12-02-2007, 23:00
sb on 1...ok i'm going in...

old school...

Wuzzman
13-02-2007, 01:02
Just cuz PUGs run a build doesn't mean the roles are simple.

A PUG spike won't get past the first relic run.

Good Guild groups can hold halls with spikes.

So clearly there must be learning curve in there SOMEWHERE.


And anyone who thinks there isn't balance should check out the Sheer number of 3 sins 2 eles 3 monk/rit backlines that are out right now.

Ok. Only reason a person would make a pug for a certain build is because they believe that it can work even with mildest level of stupidty that said player can tolerate. But that is just dealing with one instance. If you have several groups forming teams with one build in mind, then obviously your talking about a build that is more then easy to play and effective to more then one person. That build being able to take or hold halls has nothing to do with the fact that it is still easy to play. Iway was in the hall of heroes or at least made it as far as courtyard and won a few times. Would you call Iway complicated? Hopefully your answer is no, but if your answer is yes I must ask you what is a easy build to play lol

. Am I saying that iway had no learning curve? No, all builds have a learning curve and the question is never if it does has one or even how big it is. The question is how much skill with a said build does it require to win a match? You form an iway group and your guaranteed one win, if that group could follow target 1 or 2 more matches are guaranteed to follow. Hell I been in iway's were all they knew how to do was follow target and they was in courtyard. When you play a spike your at least guaranteed one win, if you have a caller who knows what he is doing maybe another one or two matches are in your run. Sure these pugs are not going to hold HoH anytime soon but as long as they know a build that is simple enough to win 1, 2 or 3 matches then how complicated is this build?

the current balance is a poor man attempt at bring together what was popular for the past 2-3 months into a concrete build that doesn't require you to say 3,2,1....it was proven when factions came out the an assassin while an excellent spiker can not possible be expected to give pressure that is required for a balance team and with 3 ele's trying their hardest to make up for that fact it is not surprising to me that they get picked off by spike teams anyway even with a 3 monk backline.

ImSoToast
13-02-2007, 01:35
Im sorry but 2 sins, 3 eles and 3 monk backline IS NOT BALANCED! Wtf that is a rainbow spike if run properly.

Hypocrites, as nicely as one can say the word. Like I said, TO ME, a balanced build would not use the same primary profession, same secondary profession using same skills, or a mixture of. At most 2 monks possibly 3 can be balanced.

So please if you are going to make up rules for this game, or say that one build deserves more merit than others, how about letting us know these rules in advance. How about you make a list of proper builds that we should be running?

Ranting, nah just opinionated. If my post offended you in any way or seemed like it was directed at you, sorry but guilty conscious or something?

Complicated or not, but there is a reason most pugs don't hold halls with spikes, while guild/friends groups do/can. LUcky, skill or whatever the difference still exsists.

If you want to dissect my posts, thats fine but do it with perspective plz. I'm not going to argue about how complicated spikes are or whether I should make you feel that they are good builds/respectable builds, but dumbing them down to simply 3,2,1 is just taking the extreme oppostie view of me. Whether intentional or not it, to me, is an extreme dumbing down of builds.

One of the points of my post, which obviously I must've failed at conveying, was how people call certain builds balanced in their minds without even defining the word first. I disagree with what some people refer to as balanced, now am I wrong, right or both?

There are 10 different professions in the game. Gvg and Ha (for now) are based on 8 players on a team. To me balanced would use at least 6 of the 10 available professions on a team. FINE lets make it 5, for christs sake thats half the professions available. At the very least a balanced should use more than 3 professions to for a team, right? (in answer to poster that said 2 sins, 2 eles and 3 monks make a balanced team. Using 30% of the available professions should not be considered balanced by any standards?)

Domina Spellbinder
13-02-2007, 11:03
See posts like this are awesome! F'n kidding. So spikes are 3,2,1 spike huh?

So I guess your guild just got sick of holding halls with spike builds right? No offense, but can your guild even hold halls with "those ****ty spikes?"

See if you think ALL spikes are 3,2,1 spike, well that's your problem, and that is why you will never beat spikes consistently.

And some more...

Sorry I have got you on your high horse, but yes, I've hold halls with spikes in 8v8, in fact more then I won halls in 6v6. But that is not the point, some people play this HA for fun, I am one of those, and the metagame without spikes was alot more fun imo.

I don't know why you have to make a personal attack right away, what has my ability to play, or defeat spike has to do with the skill it takes to play it?

The ability of a spike team to win depends on the opponents infuser and their interrupter (if they have any) and on how perfect your spikes are. There is not alot more to it except staying alive yourself. So it's basically a farm for the lower levels and tends to create extremely long matches in the upper levels (because everyone has good infusers).


And btw, 3,2,1 spike has soo many more variations than that wanderlust you quoted.

4321, press skill?
531, press skill?
321, press skill then the skill next to it?
54321, press skill, the skill next to it, then the skill next to that?

laf
13-02-2007, 15:00
^ yeah that domina guy pretty much killed that argument about spikes in his last 2 sentances :)..lets move on

Buddah
13-02-2007, 20:00
There are 10 different professions in the game. Gvg and Ha (for now) are based on 8 players on a team. To me balanced would use at least 6 of the 10 available professions on a team. FINE lets make it 5, for christs sake thats half the professions available. At the very least a balanced should use more than 3 professions to for a team, right? (in answer to poster that said 2 sins, 2 eles and 3 monks make a balanced team. Using 30% of the available professions should not be considered balanced by any standards?)
Hence why you feel there is no balanced build while others will claim otherwise. It's an opinion, not a fact.

ImSoToast
13-02-2007, 21:10
Hence why you feel there is no balanced build while others will claim otherwise. It's an opinion, not a fact.

Well that's why I asked you to define what is a balanced build, between you and me. I wasn't trying to be an *** or really arguementive, but just wanna know what you consider to be balanced. I posted a couple of ideas about what I consider balanced, now just interested on your opinion. Nothing bad or insulting, as far as I'm concerned we are just talking.

Also to Domina, how do you figure I'm insulting? I might be a little sarcastic, but please don't take it as insulting. If I come across a bit conceited, I'm sorry, not my intention. I really am talking though, at the very least, what I experienced in ha playing 8v8, 6v6, and now 8v8 again.

Honestly to me just like you are oversipmlifying spikes to basically 3,2,1, spike , same could be said about balanced and other builds. Crap I can make an arguement that balanced and degen pressure are actually easier to run than spikes. It be a pretty long arguement, but my point is all builds get really simple once you know how to run them and understand them.

Also because a build is simple or easy to run doesn't mean its good or bad or anthything, but thats its easy and simple.

My arguement is also how people try to make certain builds have more merit than others. WHy? Why does a build that you like have more merit than one you don't? I mean the complaints you have about 8v8, I have almost the same exact ones against 6v6. Yes I would rather fight bspike and rit spike daily than spirit spam daily. To me the simple fact is that people like me, who dont' run "fotm's" always have more of an oppurtinity to run different builds than we had in 6v6. Theres no arguing about that.

Wuzzman
13-02-2007, 21:43
Im sorry but 2 sins, 3 eles and 3 monk backline IS NOT BALANCED! Wtf that is a rainbow spike if run properly.

Hypocrites, as nicely as one can say the word. Like I said, TO ME, a balanced build would not use the same primary profession, same secondary profession using same skills, or a mixture of. At most 2 monks possibly 3 can be balanced.

So please if you are going to make up rules for this game, or say that one build deserves more merit than others, how about letting us know these rules in advance. How about you make a list of proper builds that we should be running?

Ranting, nah just opinionated. If my post offended you in any way or seemed like it was directed at you, sorry but guilty conscious or something?

Complicated or not, but there is a reason most pugs don't hold halls with spikes, while guild/friends groups do/can. LUcky, skill or whatever the difference still exsists.

If you want to dissect my posts, thats fine but do it with perspective plz. I'm not going to argue about how complicated spikes are or whether I should make you feel that they are good builds/respectable builds, but dumbing them down to simply 3,2,1 is just taking the extreme oppostie view of me. Whether intentional or not it, to me, is an extreme dumbing down of builds.

One of the points of my post, which obviously I must've failed at conveying, was how people call certain builds balanced in their minds without even defining the word first. I disagree with what some people refer to as balanced, now am I wrong, right or both?

There are 10 different professions in the game. Gvg and Ha (for now) are based on 8 players on a team. To me balanced would use at least 6 of the 10 available professions on a team. FINE lets make it 5, for christs sake thats half the professions available. At the very least a balanced should use more than 3 professions to for a team, right? (in answer to poster that said 2 sins, 2 eles and 3 monks make a balanced team. Using 30% of the available professions should not be considered balanced by any standards?)

your defiantion of balance is flawed...well wrong. A balance build does not mean all professions in one group. It simply means that what ever the metagame can throw at your team you should be able to smoothly handle it while still being able to deal damage.

ImSoToast
14-02-2007, 02:45
your defiantion of balance is flawed...well wrong. A balance build does not mean all professions in one group. It simply means that what ever the metagame can throw at your team you should be able to smoothly handle it while still being able to deal damage.

Really, I respectfully disagree. This is the problem. You tell me I'm wrong and give me such a general definition of what you think balanced means, its lacking. Honestly there are spikes that can "smoothly handle it", yet by no means will a spike be balanced, or will it? Lots of builds, TO ME, are balanced but are on the verge of being spikes. A few harder builds are pressure builds with a spike thrown in.

Anyways whether I'm wrong or right, to me a balanced build should by definition have a variety of professions making them up with none or very few repetitions.

Wuzzman
14-02-2007, 03:10
Really, I respectfully disagree. This is the problem. You tell me I'm wrong and give me such a general definition of what you think balanced means, its lacking. Honestly there are spikes that can "smoothly handle it", yet by no means will a spike be balanced, or will it? Lots of builds, TO ME, are balanced but are on the verge of being spikes. A few harder builds are pressure builds with a spike thrown in.

Anyways whether I'm wrong or right, to me a balanced build should by definition have a variety of professions making them up with none or very few repetitions.

You give 8 necroes vamperic gaze and shadow strike and monk healing skills and what you get (well it's really 6 n/mo 1 ranger and a rit but work with me)? Well for one they will get obliterated by another spike if forced to catch the other teams spikes. Then they will get obliterated by a balance team if forced to continuely heal from the press. Then they will get wiped out by a hex/condition team if made to remove the hexes and conditions. A spike group gets its defense from kills. But is utterly inflexible if that is taken away and is forced to deal with a pressing offense. Again a balance team can handle all the above and still manage a kill because by design their build allows them to effectively counter what ever the metagame can through at it both offensively and defensively. You can run 8 different professions in one team and call it balanced if you want but obliterated before you reach broken tower might let you learn something. The reason why I gave a broad defination of balance because by nature alot of builds from any given class can offer both offense and defensive abilities in combination with a redundant offense.

The difference between my definition and yours is that yours is utterly too rigid and follows after a brain dead pve concept that if the team of what ever number doesn't have exactly that many different professions in the team it must be a gimick. Mine doesn't try to argue that even a build built around 3 thumpers could be a balance build (which by the way it could).

B Ephekt
14-02-2007, 03:48
Really, I respectfully disagree. This is the problem. You tell me I'm wrong and give me such a general definition of what you think balanced means, its lacking. Honestly there are spikes that can "smoothly handle it", yet by no means will a spike be balanced, or will it? Lots of builds, TO ME, are balanced but are on the verge of being spikes. A few harder builds are pressure builds with a spike thrown in.

Anyways whether I'm wrong or right, to me a balanced build should by definition have a variety of professions making them up with none or very few repetitions.
Balanced is a build that gives you the ability to outplay the widest range of builds. The most common balanced builds are pressure builds, but balanced spikes can exist. Balance has nothing to do with how professions you use in a build, that's ridiculous.

For example, take an old gvg build of mine - 3 warriors, 2 rangers, a runner and 2 monks. The warrior builds are all very similar, as are the rangers; however, the builds allows you to score pressure kills at the stand, split, chain shock on an incoming runner and interrupt caster spikes. This build is obviously balanced, and proves your theory wrong.

An example of a balanced spike would be any one of the adren spike variations you used to see in gvg. You generally had two warriors, a mesmer or two, an air ele and maybe a necro as your stand team. This is also obviously a balanced build, but it scores kills with an adrenal spike aided by damage from the midline casters.

You can make up your own definitions of balanced all you want, but that doesn't make them correct - or even very sensible.

Ryuujinx
14-02-2007, 12:04
darn I always loved hating those three monk backlines. I may actually take the time to dismantle them with my mesmer again. Balance so far is being run by guild groups and not at the pug level...which means 90% of the teams are some sort of spike and you only see a balance team past broken tower. Lol, just like the old searing flames groups dominating the first 2 maps but only seeing holding builds after that. While balance builds are being run, for it to be a true factor for the everyday ha player it must be organized, yes a team of random players can organize on vent and yes I know how unbelievable that is, and ran successfully by those players. That is the test. Its not about how many guild groups can do balance but how many average players will be able to form one (yes even if it takes an hour or requires rank) which will be the ultimate decider on whether or not 8v8 stays.

well just thought I'd throw this out, today at like 2ish my friend and I got this crazy idea to go do some HA so we got on our pvp characters and decded to run something like 2x shock, SH ele, SS/Warder, SS/Corrupt/SV necro (whatever we could find really) and a 3monk backline. wel we went there and it took about an hour to setup and we didn't go far, but we did get a group setup that was balanced. (i have an affinity to shock wars, can ya tell? =P)

but anyway... it's now 6, this prolly has lots of typos and I need sleep. See ya

garidanthefighter
14-02-2007, 13:22
To me, build really has nothing to do with winning halls, as long as it's not something completely stupid... Player ability, chemistry, and coordination are so much more important. When you have those, an adren spike would be my build of choice for holding halls because you only need 2-3 skills from 4-5 people, leaving the rest of their bars open for utility and support.

shardfenix
15-02-2007, 05:20
The only reason spikes exist in 8v8 (and win) is because the skills they are using are too good. Icy veins: 5 energy for 100 damage and 5 recharge? Was Anet on crack? You have to be a complete moron to make a skill like that and call it fair.

windcaller
17-02-2007, 17:05
The only reason spikes exist in 8v8 (and win) is because the skills they are using are too good. Icy veins: 5 energy for 100 damage and 5 recharge? Was Anet on crack? You have to be a complete moron to make a skill like that and call it fair.

let's not forget Spoil Victor. (which makes Mesmer elites look like chibi babies wrotting on the streets of New York.)

ImSoToast
17-02-2007, 18:14
let's not forget Spoil Victor. (which makes Mesmer elites look like chibi babies wrotting on the streets of New York.)

Yes, lol the problem with necs is too many good skills elites and not enough room on the bar. For me what do you chose spoil victor or wail of doom? Both are awesome...

nightrunner
18-02-2007, 06:04
Yes, lol the problem with necs is too many good skills elites and not enough room on the bar. For me what do you chose spoil victor or wail of doom? Both are awesome...

Spoil Victor is good, but the real problem with Necros (in HA, mostly) is Soul Reaping. It's fairly easily exploited - Spirit spam, Jagged Bones, to name a few.

scamPOR
20-02-2007, 06:18
I want to run 2 wars:

1 axe / 1 hammer or 2 axe
2 e/mo master of magic smiters
a taint with FIENDS (YESSSS)
and 3 monks!

e/mos can take freezing gust or deep freeze and taint can take wards.... would be sexy.

Overall 8v8 is always <3 finding the people can be annoying at times, but 6v6 was like TA +2... which was LAME.

Wail of doom is awful....