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laf
14-02-2007, 23:50
a spike that does over 600+ dmg + shet load of spirits and all of the good stuff...kinda kills the feedback that anet wants dont it?

I predicted people would run w/e works best in 8v8 weekend and i was right.

Wuzzman
15-02-2007, 04:16
lol. Anet wanted more channeling rits, why you think they added bloodsong to channeling, nerfed the rit lord build, and buffed channeling damage? A nerf to rits won't come since technically they are balanced according to anet. ANd besides this is a HA problem and doesn't even barely touch gvg, and considering that the only other builds the spike is facing (bloodspike, and searing flames/boa assassin balance??) are hardly examples of builds to judge the strength of this build by. That is like saying touch rangers are unbalanced because they own wammo's.

laf
15-02-2007, 11:49
oh well if they say its balanced then it is balanced and I will abuse the power anet provides..

Its kinda like in the movie starsky and hutch with owen wilson and ben stiller and snoop dogg. when snoop dogg was telling then a secret owen wilson is like "he lays it out for us to play it out". I will apply that method here with the rit spike (no matter how lame that spike)

windcaller
15-02-2007, 12:39
I predicted people would run w/e works best in 8v8 weekend and i was right.

well guess what. Peeps aren't stupid to run something that doesn't work. Sounds interesting, huh?


:grin:

laf
15-02-2007, 15:01
u didnt get the point i was trying to make there..its alright I didnt think anybody would :) I dont want to explain im tired heh.

Darko the MM
13-03-2007, 01:57
IMO, HA is the only place where Channeling has any use. No nerfs.

shardfenix
14-03-2007, 23:39
Ritualists don't belong in this game. They do one of two things: Spam annoying spirits, and spam more annoying spirits. You know that little kid in Halo who steals all the rocket launchers, gets a tank, and camps in a remote corner of the map where nobody can shoot at? That's what ritualists are.

Harshateja
15-03-2007, 02:14
The problem with ritualists is that they are either too strong or too weak. Their ability to be abused makes it so its nigh impossible to find the appropriate middle ground. I agree with you that they are overpowered but since I don't see ap ossible way to balance them without making them useless incomparison to elementalists, my suggestion is to balance protective measures such as stronger spirit destruction etc.

nightrunner
15-03-2007, 02:50
Same thing with Assassins, too. Their chains are really powerful, as BoA sins have demonstrated, but nerf them and they become pretty useless.

shardfenix
15-03-2007, 04:02
Same thing with Assassins, too. Their chains are really powerful, as BoA sins have demonstrated, but nerf them and they become pretty useless.
The thing about sins is their flavor. Their sole purpose in life is to go in, kill something, and get out. BOA sins do exactly this. Any form of preveiling or blocking will stop an assassin dead in its tracks. I love fighting boa sins in HA cause I just RC it and they feel useless.


The problem with ritualists is that they are either too strong or too weak. Their ability to be abused makes it so its nigh impossible to find the appropriate middle ground. I agree with you that they are overpowered but since I don't see ap ossible way to balance them without making them useless incomparison to elementalists, my suggestion is to balance protective measures such as stronger spirit destruction etc.
The spirits are one thing, and are a giant annoyance, but they are easily killable. When I say rits are broken, I mean the typical "weapon gank" rits who spam remedy/vengeful/warding. One rit can successfully deal with 99% of gank teams in their GL area. Sorry if you fail at math but 1 guy plus mindless archers shouldn't be able to stop 3 good, self sufficient players.

Vengeful and remedy need a giant nerf, as they are twice as good as ROF right now. It's a complete joke that remedy hasn't been nerfed since day 1. At 3 recharge, it's almost like having a 10 point life siphon on whatever warrior's attacking you, except you're losing conditions at the same time.

Rits are so incredible abusable right now it makes pvp not fun. The only guilds I usually lose to ALWAYS run a weapon rit. Why? Because it can solo 3-4 gankers without trying.

Mr Savior
15-03-2007, 08:37
i dont see any reason nerf Rt's, s spammers have many counters.
and if running weapon rit team loses 1 dmg dealer, weapon spells cant spike maby if he have some points in channeling to finish ppl off.

in HA, if they place spirits too near each other 1 aoe can kill them

Tucks
15-03-2007, 18:40
Nerf soul reaping too.

shardfenix
16-03-2007, 00:26
Nerf soul reaping too.

Agreed. Soul reaping should only work for non-summoned creatures (no spirits, no animated minions). Having infinite energy is what maked necros so overpowered, plus the fact that their hexes have no recharge.

Natus
17-03-2007, 02:32
Soul Reaping is fine how it is. Just because something works isn't a valid reason to cry nerf.

Tucks
17-03-2007, 02:41
Soul Reaping is fine how it is. Just because something works isn't a valid reason to cry nerf.

And people with near unlimited energy isn't broken?

Jormandgundr
17-03-2007, 06:30
The spirits are one thing, and are a giant annoyance, but they are easily killable. When I say rits are broken, I mean the typical "weapon gank" rits who spam remedy/vengeful/warding. One rit can successfully deal with 99% of gank teams in their GL area. Sorry if you fail at math but 1 guy plus mindless archers shouldn't be able to stop 3 good, self sufficient players.

Then.... *gasp!* try someting different! If your build obviously can't do what it did because someone decided to do something, then you adapt. I'm sorry, but most 6 month old builds aren't so great as they once were anymore(although some still are).

David Holtzman
17-03-2007, 08:48
Soul Reaping is fine how it is. Just because something works isn't a valid reason to cry nerf.

Soul Reaping is absolutely broken and everyone knows it. The problem is: how the hell do you balance it without breaking necros?

TLLOTS
17-03-2007, 10:29
Soul Reaping is absolutely broken and everyone knows it. The problem is: how the hell do you balance it without breaking necros?
The best suggestion I've heard on this matter is to make Soul Reaping give energy regeneration instead. It's part nerf and part buff in that there is then a hard cap on how much energy you can get out of it, but the fact that the energy returns are more predictable makes it easier to get the most out of the energy you do get from it.

David Holtzman
17-03-2007, 10:46
The best suggestion I've heard on this matter is to make Soul Reaping give energy regeneration instead. It's part nerf and part buff in that there is then a hard cap on how much energy you can get out of it, but the fact that the energy returns are more predictable makes it easier to get the most out of the energy you do get from it.

I don't see much difference between a necro with 10 regen and one getting gobs of mana when things die.

nightrunner
17-03-2007, 20:53
Yeah, honestly, Soul Reaping needs some serious rethinking. It's been exploited since the beginning of the game.

I think extra regen is a good idea, but 10 pips is kind of ridiculous. It would have to cap somewhere, or maybe stuff dying would increase the duration of the regen, ect.

halfthought
17-03-2007, 22:13
soul reaping should give energy at a different rate at 12 SR, we should get 8 energy, but then make necro spells more cost effiecient. No more globs of 10 energy hexes faintheartedness should cost 5 energy, SV should cost 5 ETC

TLLOTS
18-03-2007, 00:33
I don't see much difference between a necro with 10 regen and one getting gobs of mana when things die.
Who said anything about 10 regen? The suggestions I've seen have been focused on giving anywhere from 2 - 4 extra pips of regen. There's a fair bit of flexibility in how you can implement it, for example:

Soul Reaping: Whenever a creature dies you gain +3 energy regen for 1 second for every point of Soul Reaping you possess.

This way Soul Reaping will only ever get you 7 pips, and neither times nor regen rates will stack, so if you have countless minions dying, then some of that energy you simply won't see return.

There are other suggestions as well such as:

Soul Reaping: Whenever a creature dies you gain extra energy regeneration for 12 seconds, 1 pip for every 4 points in Soul Reaping.

As said before, there's plenty of ways to go about changing it to energy regeneration so as to prevent Soul Reaping abuse. There's no doubt in my mind that it is the right way to go, the main question is which of these suggestions do you use?

Tucks
18-03-2007, 02:56
Who said anything about 10 regen? The suggestions I've seen have been focused on giving anywhere from 2 - 4 extra pips of regen. There's a fair bit of flexibility in how you can implement it, for example:

Soul Reaping: Whenever a creature dies you gain +3 energy regen for 1 second for every point of Soul Reaping you possess.

This way Soul Reaping will only ever get you 7 pips, and neither times nor regen rates will stack, so if you have countless minions dying, then some of that energy you simply won't see return.

There are other suggestions as well such as:

Soul Reaping: Whenever a creature dies you gain extra energy regeneration for 12 seconds, 1 pip for every 4 points in Soul Reaping.

As said before, there's plenty of ways to go about changing it to energy regeneration so as to prevent Soul Reaping abuse. There's no doubt in my mind that it is the right way to go, the main question is which of these suggestions do you use?

That doesn't fix it at all. With spirits and minions on the field he would have +3 energy regen non stop.


You may as well make it 1/4 of energy return for summoned creatures.

Natus
18-03-2007, 03:06
Cry more...Soul Reaping is not broken. It does not provide unlimited energy, that's an exaggeration. It's a powerful attribute when used in certain ways, but it doesn't need to be changed. Learn to counter/cope with builds that "reap" the benefits of Soul Reaping, like Spiritway.

Even though Spiritway isn't the greatest example.

Tucks
18-03-2007, 04:15
Cry more...Soul Reaping is not broken. It does not provide unlimited energy, that's an exaggeration. It's a powerful attribute when used in certain ways, but it doesn't need to be changed. Learn to counter/cope with builds that "reap" the benefits of Soul Reaping, like Spiritway.

Even though Spiritway isn't the greatest example.

I'm not some scrub like yourself who runs that ****. In fact i know how to deal with it easily enough. It doesn't mean it isn't broken though. People run healers boon necro's under natures sometimes, simply because of the energy that is fed into them makes the -2 energy regen almost insignificant.

Natus
18-03-2007, 04:41
I gave Spiritway as an example, I didn't say I ran it. Failure to read correctly...gg.

And attempting to insult me was unnecessary, I did nothing to you.

Arutima
18-03-2007, 05:23
soul reaping is more of a pve thing, thought, and almost have to rely on spirit spam to get energy in pvp, wich anet already lower the effectiveness (only 50% soul reaping with spirits)

As for unlimited energy ... let's nerf dervish's mysticism, paragorn's leaderships and assassin's critical hit too, since they can provide near unlimited energy, too :P

Natus
18-03-2007, 05:52
Mysticism, Leadership, and Critical Strikes aren't the same type of energy management/recovery as Soul Reaping.

Aiiane
18-03-2007, 06:24
Personally, I'd like to see Soul Reaping changed to an energy gain whenever a necromancer spell heals you, you gain up to 1 point of energy for every 4 ranks of SR. Thus, lifestealing spells, minion sacrificing, et cetera. By limiting it to necromancer skills, you prevent things like spamming monk heals on oneself. Health regen would not trigger it.

David Holtzman
18-03-2007, 06:26
Cry more...Soul Reaping is not broken. It does not provide unlimited energy, that's an exaggeration. It's a powerful attribute when used in certain ways, but it doesn't need to be changed. Learn to counter/cope with builds that "reap" the benefits of Soul Reaping, like Spiritway.


Yeah, you just have no idea what you're talking about. Go play some PvP and come back when you have experience. If you don't think that unlimited energy on casters is broken, then you just don't understand how Guild Wars works.

Natus
18-03-2007, 06:42
Yeah, you just have no idea what you're talking about. Go play some PvP and come back when you have experience. If you don't think that unlimited energy on casters is broken, then you just don't understand how Guild Wars works.

I understand how it works, and while I'll admit that it is a bit...Unbalanced, if that's the word for it, I still do not think it needs a major change.

And, I wasn't trying to say that my views are the right views, it's just simply my opinion. I am not arguing, there's no point.

David Holtzman
18-03-2007, 08:42
I understand how it works, and while I'll admit that it is a bit...Unbalanced, if that's the word for it, I still do not think it needs a major change.

I don't see any minor change that would fix necros super-powering each other.


And, I wasn't trying to say that my views are the right views, it's just simply my opinion. I am not arguing, there's no point.

It's too much work to explain why what you're saying is not an opinion, so I'll settle for telling you your opinion is wrong.

TLLOTS
18-03-2007, 10:32
That doesn't fix it at all. With spirits and minions on the field he would have +3 energy regen non stop.


You may as well make it 1/4 of energy return for summoned creatures.
Compared to how Soul Reaping currently is, the suggestions I posted are significantly less prone to abuse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not touting them as the ultimate solution to life the universe and everything, but they are the right direction to go.

As for those who believe Soul Reaping isn't a significant problem, you really need to look at it again. It is perhaps the most gimicky primary attribute in the game, as such there's very little middle ground in which it is balanced, it's either overpowered or underpowered, and skills like that are bad enough for the game, let alone a primary attribute. Don't take people's desire to see Soul Reaping fixed as a desire to make it useless; I suspect many of those in favour of changing it would just as soon wish to see it made into something useful rather than nerfed into oblivion.

Dark Shinobi
18-03-2007, 15:08
Personally, I'd like to see Soul Reaping changed to an energy gain whenever a necromancer spell heals you, you gain up to 1 point of energy for every 4 ranks of SR. Thus, lifestealing spells, minion sacrificing, et cetera. By limiting it to necromancer skills, you prevent things like spamming monk heals on oneself. Health regen would not trigger it.

Aiiane, you idea is stupid because Necros with vampiric weapons would get energy just by attacking. It might not be something people would do but still that fact that such problem can arise is unacceptable.

halfthought
18-03-2007, 17:37
Aiiane, you idea is stupid because Necros with vampiric weapons would get energy just by attacking. It might not be something people would do but still that fact that such problem can arise is unacceptable.

no, her idea is stupid because it would make necromancers useless in pve, and pvp

casts 2 bone fiends....

energy=0

casts 4 fainthearted

energy=0

wait oh yeah, I can recover some of the enrgy by casting a 10 energy vamp gaze.

*casts vamp gaze

gains back 3 energy from a 10 energy skill that does 72 damage

and you think necros are dead in high level pvp :rolleyes:

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444909

windcaller
18-03-2007, 18:29
Shinobi and halfthought watch your languages please. Her idea is not stupid.

If you do the same with Fast Casting, to return a certain % of energy cost from Mesmer-only spells you could make the primary attribute actually worthwile. However, in my opinion, Soul Reaping is fine as it is.

halfthought
18-03-2007, 19:00
yes I suppose, but the flavour of soulreaping disappears if it said

for ever point in soulreaping, your spells cost 4% less

isnt that the same as expertise except with spells?

B Ephekt
18-03-2007, 19:10
If you do the same with Fast Casting, to return a certain % of energy cost from Mesmer-only spells you could make the primary attribute actually worthwile.
Fast casting is already worthwhile...

KicknDave
18-03-2007, 20:16
Soul Reaping is fine.

Natus
18-03-2007, 20:52
Soul Reaping is fine.

I said the same, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

Harshateja
18-03-2007, 20:59
Fast casting is already worthwhile...

HA! Nice One! Oh wait you were being serious...Dude, at the very least it needs to work for ALL skills. As of right now, working for only spells, its pointless.

David Holtzman
18-03-2007, 21:19
I said the same, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

Hah, no. It follows deductively from how the game is balanced that having unlimitted energy is broken.

Natus
18-03-2007, 21:43
I guess. I bow to your superior knowledge. It obviously surpasses my own knowledge of game mechanics.

Seriously, not sarcastically.

:flowers:

windcaller
19-03-2007, 14:40
Fast casting is already worthwhile...

You're amusing :)

I believe you think that the Inspiration line is already superior to any energy management out there. Including GoLE. :grin:

halfthought
19-03-2007, 19:31
You're amusing :)

I believe you think that the Inspiration line is already superior to any energy management out there. Including GoLE. :grin:

Fast Casting is what allows mesmers to be used at all in gvg. Who has time for 3 second diversions, or 2 second spike skills? If you believe otherwise, play mesmer with 0 in fastcast.....

windcaller
19-03-2007, 20:11
Fast Casting is what allows mesmers to be used at all in gvg. Who has time for 3 second diversions, or 2 second spike skills? If you believe otherwise, play mesmer with 0 in fastcast.....

i saw loads of builds without any mesmers in them. that shows how much mesmers are needed everywhere in GvG. A team can win without diversion, and with 2 second spike skills :)

B Ephekt
19-03-2007, 20:24
HA! Nice One! Oh wait you were being serious...Dude, at the very least it needs to work for ALL skills. As of right now, working for only spells, its pointless.
Do you even pvp outside of RA/AB?


You're amusing :)

I believe you think that the Inspiration line is already superior to any energy management out there. Including GoLE. :grin:
Look at all the useful mesmer skills, most have cast times of 2-3 seconds. Diversion and Shame would be terrible without fast casting. Gale would be less useful on a mesmer without fast casting. Interrupts with activation times that dip well below 1/4s are awesome.

You're talking out your ***.

GoLE outclasses most energy management currently, but Power Drain is still pretty good in that it's an extra interrupt for aegis and gives you some energy back. The rest of the inspiration line has seen better days, however.


i saw loads of builds without any mesmers in them. that shows how much mesmers are needed everywhere in GvG. A team can win without diversion, and with 2 second spike skills :)
Your logic is flawed. All it shows is that different guilds have different plays styles.

Of course you can win a gvg without a mesmer. Mesmers just make everything better (imo).

halfthought
19-03-2007, 23:24
i saw loads of builds without any mesmers in them. that shows how much mesmers are needed everywhere in GvG. A team can win without diversion, and with 2 second spike skills :)

I never said they were needed, you putting words in my mouth, but I sure run mesmers in gvg, and I sure see more mesmers in gvg then I see paragons/necros/rits/dervish/eles

asxtc
21-03-2007, 15:48
I think Rangers expertise, Monks DF, Wars strength and Eles ES are all way overpowered... :)

Just thought I would add the only remaining char types that havent been attacked in this thread....with the title "any plans on nerfing ritualists?"

Rits and SR Necros really need to have some synergy in the team build in order to fully reap (no pun) the rewards....and therefore would have to side with both of the "snot really overpowered.." crew..

B Ephekt
21-03-2007, 16:27
Sorry, but if you think a character that essentially has 15+ pips of energy regen is balanced, you obviously lack a fundamental understanding of this game.

Soul Reaping is broken. It's infinite energy in any build that has minions or spirits. It's so broken that you often see people using necro primaries with 7 skills from their secondary, just so they can take advantage of the infinite energy from a soul reaping-spirit engine.

This type of exploit does not encourage skillful play, it encourages mindless skill spamming builds.

Dogbert
02-04-2007, 01:54
Sorry, but if you think a character that essentially has 15+ pips of energy regen is balanced, you obviously lack a fundamental understanding of this game.

Soul Reaping is broken. It's infinite energy in any build that has minions or spirits. It's so broken that you often see people using necro primaries with 7 skills from their secondary, just so they can take advantage of the infinite energy from a soul reaping-spirit engine.

This type of exploit does not encourage skillful play, it encourages mindless skill spamming builds.

I agree but also remember that sr was nerfed once when it was too powerful combined with ritualist spirits in general. Now the energy return is 50% and still too much.
Is it the right time to beg for a nerf? I believe anet has said they will be looking at rangers the next thing they do.

Lord Helmos
07-04-2007, 01:55
Ritualists weren't the problem. The infinite energy soul reaping necros backing them were the problem and ANET fixed it. Rit spike falls just as fairly as any other spike team now.

Consume Soul and Spirit Bond are ftw, or just banishing strike all their spirits with a dedicated spirit hunter dervish and gg.

You know how long spirits take to cast, mesmer ftw.

So many teams fall to rit spike because they try to kill the rits without dealing with the spirits. All their utility comes from those translucent ghostly bouys, if you sink those then the whole ship goes down.

MStarfire
18-04-2007, 20:14
It's always funny when someone who's not smart enough to defeat a certain build cries for a nerf. "Oh boo hoo, this character killed me plz nerf omg!"

Ritualists have a skillset that's more varied than any profession in the game. Ritualists are one of the better classes out there, but that doesn't mean they're invincible. Every build has a counter, and I've torn apart ritspike plenty of times.

Here are come clues.

Spirits are at best level 9. Maybe take them out?

Spirits take 3-5 seconds to cast, and THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SPEED THIS UP. And that skill is ELITE and requires the destruction of a spirit to work. So learn to interrupt? Maybe let a mesmer into your group.

Most Chanelling skills do lightning damage. Ward Against Elements?

The large damage skills require a spirit to be nearby. Kill them? Some skills do double damage to summoned creatures. What do you think spirits are?



Next week, I'll discuss why assassins and Searing Flames nukers are stupidly easy to kill and why everyone who wants to nerf them are just whiners.

B Ephekt
18-04-2007, 22:41
It's always funny when someone who's not smart enough to defeat a certain build cries for a nerf. "Oh boo hoo, this character killed me plz nerf omg!"It's always funny when people with an obvious lack of pvp experience go spouting off about things they don't understand.


Ritualists are one of the better classes out thereNot in the Guild Wars I'm playing.


Spirits are at best level 9. Maybe take them out?This thread was about the imba rit spike. "KIll the spirits" is a good idea, except that a team would generally have 8-10+ spirits spread across 6 (at the time) or 8 ritualists, and they only need 1 spirit up to be up to spike.


So learn to interrupt? Maybe let a mesmer into your group.
Spirits are not spells, therefore they require skill interrupts. Mesmer skills that can interrupt spirits: Leech Sig (30s recharge), Cry of Frustration (15e, 20s recharge), Complicate (20s recharge), Signet of Disruption (only works if the target is hexed, also 20s recharge) and Psychic Distraction (elite).

So you're saying that a single mesmer is going to interrupt all 8 ritualists, therefore preventing them from ****ting spirits or spiking every 5 seconds? OK...

Furthermore, bringing a mesmer solely to counter a single build is a sign that the game is not balanced. In case you missed it, that was the point of this thread; the imbalanced rit spike, which could deal 1400+ damage every 5 seconds.


Most Chanelling skills do lightning damage. Ward Against Elements?Bring an utterly worthless skill just to counter a single spike build? OK....



Regardless of that nonsense, the build in question was already nerfed because it truly was imbalanced. Rits are not very hard to shutdown. The problem arose from teams of 6-8 ritualists, all packing spirits, and 5s recharge spike skills, who **** defensive spirits all over the place and 3, 2, 1 mashed buttons to get kills. It was a skill-less scrubby build with a way too powerful spike, which is what this thread was originally about.

Ranger Nietzsche
19-04-2007, 18:43
I say we should write a 6-8 ranger build that goes 3,2,1 mash buttons to get kills that will survive the rit spike cuz they have 100 armor.

shardfenix
24-04-2007, 06:52
I say we should write a 6-8 ranger build that goes 3,2,1 mash buttons to get kills that will survive the rit spike cuz they have 100 armor.

You could just run paraway with paragons who have 130 armor + health regen + heal gain every time a chant ends + near infinite energy + infuse just in case your build can spike for the equivalent of 3000 damage.


It's always funny when someone who's not smart enough to defeat a certain build cries for a nerf. "Oh boo hoo, this character killed me plz nerf omg!"It's always funny when a moron who doesn't know what game balance is uses childish insults on intelligent people because he's compensating for something, or lack thereof.


Ritualists have a skillset that's more varied than any profession in the game. Ritualists are one of the better classes out there, but that doesn't mean they're invincible. Every build has a counter, and I've torn apart ritspike plenty of times.I've torn apart ritspike plenty of times also. It seems our opinions carry equal wieght...except I'm not a bumbling idiot.


Spirits are at best level 9. Maybe take them out?That's easy when wanderlust is KDing you for 25 seconds, dissonance is interrupting your attacks, and shadowsong is making it impossible for you to hit. By the time you take out half of their spirits, half your team is dead and they recasted all their spirits anyway.


Spirits take 3-5 seconds to cast, and THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO SPEED THIS UP. And that skill is ELITE and requires the destruction of a spirit to work. So learn to interrupt? Maybe let a mesmer into your group.Cause it's easy to interrupt 6 things at once every 2 seconds.


Next week, I'll discuss why assassins and Searing Flames nukers are stupidly easy to kill and why everyone who wants to nerf them are just whiners.
And right now, I'll teach you why Signet of Ghostly Might spammers are easy to kill...but still have literally one hit unpreventable kills on anything they want. Just because something is capable of dying doesn't mean it's weak, but as the rest of your post clearly implies, you didn't pass that logic class in life.

shardfenix
24-04-2007, 06:57
Is it the right time to beg for a nerf? I believe anet has said they will be looking at rangers the next thing they do.

Dear Arenanet, to prevent you from having to rebalance everything over and over and over, why not simply get it right the first time? There are a lot of brains working through these forums. Borrow their ideas. Also, learn 1st grade math. It's easy to balance skills when you know exactly how good they are.

Example: Vamp gaze is a 1 second cast which steals 67 life and costs 10 energy. Vengeful weapon is a 1/4 cast that steals the same amount of life, costs half as much, and can be put on anyone. Durr...

Example: Enchantments are defensive skills which are easily removable. Shouts/Chants are defensive skills which do the same thing for the same cost (in most cases), but are impossible to remove. Durr...

Example: Hammers have the highest average DPS in the game of 24.5 Scythes have an average DPS of 24.42. After you factor in the aoe, scythes are the best weapon in the game by almost triple.

Example: Reaper's mark does 60 damage per energy point. The second strongest hex only does half that much. Also, reaper's mark has a 30 second duration for the low low cost of gaining energy back. One could argue it gives an indeterminable number of damage per energy point.

Example: Orison heals for 60, kiss heals for 51 without the conditional. Then again, it's not very hard to enchant someone. With the easy-to-attain conditional, kiss heals for 81, 111, 141, 171, 201, etc.

Example: Aegis = 10 seconds of 50% damage negation from physicals. Shadow of Fear = 45 seconds of 50% damage negation from physicals.

Example: Channeling...omg

Example: Searing flames is a 119 damage spiking skill that recharges in 2 seconds. A similar elite spike skill is invoke lightning, which has both a cast time and a recharge and hits less people in most cases.

I could go on but I think ppl stopped reading after the 2nd or 3rd example.[ /rant]

So the basic points of this post are
1: Learn math
2: Listen to your players + read the forums.

Imyours Shesmine
24-04-2007, 16:17
I use, counter and remove all the skills you have listed (obviously with varying characters) in the examples above and never thought of them as a problem, certainly not imbalanced. I don't see what your point is.


So the basic points of this post are
1: Learn math
2: Listen to your players + read the forums.

1. I think they do as programmers.
2. The first suggestion is good customer service, which I'm sure they aspire to. Seriously...if you owned a successful company that has Income statements, cash flows and ultimately has to feed its forecasted profit margin every year...would you listen to a bunch of gamers who flame each other any chance they get because their opinions differ a million times over. You would not. You would create a game with “cool” characters marketed towards teenagers who like button pushing.

To make your responses quicker please copy these Self-Righteous, self-aggrandizing sound bite replies here.
It's always funny when people with an obvious lack of pvp experience go spouting off about things they don't understand.
It's always funny when a moron who doesn't know what game balance is uses childish insults on intelligent people because he's compensating for something, or lack thereof.

Ranger Nietzsche
24-04-2007, 19:23
direct comparisons of skills in diff. professions or attributes just doesn't work. Your analysis of orision vs kiss is accurate

but I'm sure you're aware that a skill which would suck as a healing prayers could rock as prot, or shadow arts.

I'm sure you're aware that Hammers have other advantages over Scythes beyond the direct damage, and vice versa.

I'm sure you're aware that directly comparing the stats of a Hex that slows attack speed and an enchant that blocks without any consideration of Hex vs Enchant and minus ASP vs block and One enemy vs Whole party is short sighted.

I'm sure you're aware that characters with enchant based prot can be more advantageous than shout based prot depending on the build.


I'm sure you're aware that while intelligent things are said on these forums (including yourself often) 80% of it is idiotic drivel.

I'm sure you're aware that especially this forum isn't the best place to go for good pvp advice.

C'mon man your SHARD right? You must know some alpha testers at least. Go get them to forward your suggestions, cuz I'm sure you're aware that that is the only real way to get your opinions in game.

I'm sure you're aware of all those things, but its also more fun to rant. It also defeats any purpose your post might have had.

rexkenley
24-04-2007, 22:02
It's amazing how many people suffer from delusions of grandeur :)

"I am the GW God! Worship me ANET!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!"

Eye of Nivawk
25-04-2007, 05:52
Dear Arenanet, to prevent you from having to rebalance everything over and over and over, why not simply get it right the first time? There are a lot of brains working through these forums. Borrow their ideas. Also, learn 1st grade math. It's easy to balance skills when you know exactly how good they are.

Example: Vamp gaze is a 1 second cast which steals 67 life and costs 10 energy. Vengeful weapon is a 1/4 cast that steals the same amount of life, costs half as much, and can be put on anyone. Durr...

Example: Enchantments are defensive skills which are easily removable. Shouts/Chants are defensive skills which do the same thing for the same cost (in most cases), but are impossible to remove. Durr...

Example: Hammers have the highest average DPS in the game of 24.5 Scythes have an average DPS of 24.42. After you factor in the aoe, scythes are the best weapon in the game by almost triple.

Example: Reaper's mark does 60 damage per energy point. The second strongest hex only does half that much. Also, reaper's mark has a 30 second duration for the low low cost of gaining energy back. One could argue it gives an indeterminable number of damage per energy point.

Example: Orison heals for 60, kiss heals for 51 without the conditional. Then again, it's not very hard to enchant someone. With the easy-to-attain conditional, kiss heals for 81, 111, 141, 171, 201, etc.

Example: Aegis = 10 seconds of 50% damage negation from physicals. Shadow of Fear = 45 seconds of 50% damage negation from physicals.

Example: Channeling...omg

Example: Searing flames is a 119 damage spiking skill that recharges in 2 seconds. A similar elite spike skill is invoke lightning, which has both a cast time and a recharge and hits less people in most cases.

I could go on but I think ppl stopped reading after the 2nd or 3rd example.[ /rant]

So the basic points of this post are
1: Learn math
2: Listen to your players + read the forums.

I tackled guild wars a little backwards (fact, NF, Proph) and was only introduced to certain skills in PvP and later in PvE. Prophecies has some of the best skills available to many professions. SS, Meteor Shower, Dwayna's Kiss, etc.
Ever since i saw my first ritualist in PvP i thought the shaman's spirits would act like an MM's minions and the spirits, which require no corpse, would go wild when the master dies. Everything has its ups and downs

Vamp gaze can be used on anyone inside aggro. Vengeful weapon requires the weaponed to be attacked

Enchantment>Shouts, Chants, Echoes (is there is way greater than symbol?). Protective spirit, vital boon, stoneflesh aura and many other enchants have no thing even similar in the SCE (shouts, chants, echoes) inventory. SCE provide armor, blocking, healing, regen, bonding, and energy typically once and they end. Like defensive anthem or Zealous anthem. Shouts last longer but only block or armor, for the most part. I dont think there are many SCEs that can come close to raw might of enchantments.

Hammers vs Scythes. Thats like Sword vs Axe, each has its own area of expertise. And who honestly clusters in front of dervish?

Reapers Mark is rendered almost useless if you remove it and its an elite slot, some skills out weigh it in damage by far, without being elite. Backfire, empathy, and insidious parasite come to mind.

Dwayna's Kiss? ive seen plenty of monks using it... Why dont more? Its prophecies only that may be part of it.

Aegis? seen it used all over the place. Shadow of fear? -50% AS isnt the same as 50% blocking, just ask a sin.

Channeling, well thats easy enough to shut down. All of the damage is either armor ignoring or lightning. Plenty of classes has armor ignoring and plenty can up their amor so that elemental damage is little more than an anoyance. A 63 lightning damage spell (renewing surge) against a ranger does only 31 damage, wow impressive. I may be better off wanding him. And there are enough to ways to kill any caster that spells like renewing surge end up useless. Backfire, dazed or soul leech hurt pretty bad.

SF requires the targets to cluster up and stay on fire, both of which are easy not to do. I do agree that getting nailed with it is just no fun (low recharge isnt fair but worse things have happened) but I find rangers more painful nowadays than SFs.

Dont Rant cause there are over powered skills out there. This happens in any game. Halo 2 no one uses magnums unless the player is good with them. I cant help but notice that no sin skills made it on the list, like Shadow Form, or some Ranger skills like burning arrow or needling shot. dont hate on eles, rits and necros. wow that was longer than i thought it would, kudos to anyone still reading.


BTW with the SR discussion earlier. In light of recent events and me getting used to them, I think that the energy gain should be zero for minions and spirits. Now wait for it...wait for it....Now! Take off the 5 sec thingy and make it so that when a necro gains energy through SR he loses that amount of health or more, now that would interesting. When a mob of 5 guys dies at once and necro with 12 SR is in the area to gain energy he gains 60 energy and loses 60 or more health. And yes i do play as a necro and i think it would add strategy to the way many of us play.

Darko the MM
25-04-2007, 13:02
I saw that ritualists need a buff, it's those pesky necromancers that need to be nerfed. *cough* IV+SB Spike *cough*

shardfenix
26-04-2007, 00:43
Congratulations Nivawk! You completely missed the entire point of my post. Go back and read it again.


Seriously...if you owned a successful company that has Income statements, cash flows and ultimately has to feed its forecasted profit margin every year...would you listen to a bunch of gamers who flame each other any chance they get because their opinions differ a million times over. You would not. You would create a game with “cool” characters marketed towards teenagers who like button pushing.If I owned a successful company that had income statements, cash flows, and ultimately has to feed its forecasted profit margin every year, I would listen to my main demographic, which according to the box, is people who like "game based on player skill," not item or skill power levels. When they actually give me what it says on the box (which is why i bought it in the first place), I would stop complaining, but time and time again, they fail.

On a similar note, why hasn't kill count been taken out of HA? 100% of the HA players all agree it needs to be removed. Balanced or not, if 100% of your player base says the same thing, do it or you're retarded.

asxtc
22-05-2007, 16:47
You must know some alpha testers at least. Go get them to forward your suggestions, cuz I'm sure you're aware that that is the only real way to get your opinions in game.

Oh noes...i dont want the ideas of 1 person swaying the whole debate..in a backdoor manouvre.

What normally happens in such tight debates is:

1 person goes over the top and starts getting out of order in the comments he targets at previous posters....and the rest tend to close ranks and laugh at the points that are proffered.

This thread took the same path.

Smite goes forums
02-06-2007, 14:28
nurf rits, nerf icy veins, nurf paras. kthnx.