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Azriels Death
16-03-2007, 00:34
Ok... So about 15 minutes ago I was doing some AB, and before every match starts, I like to point out some things to people that may be new to AB, or haven't had that much experience with them. And then this happened...


http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/kurt295/pissed.jpg



Keep in mind that this is only a small portion of the one sided conversation, the whole thing spanned throughout the entire length of the match; which we proceeded to lose. Comment after comment after comment was constantly pm'ed to me, which I was too busy to block the person because I was actually capping shrines with people that weren't even on my team, because my team mates were part of the group that refused to believe rushing out of the base and straight into the mob didn't accomplish anything.


After this transpired, it brought a few question to mind:

Why is it necessary to insult those that are only trying to help?

Since when should members of the same team/side/faction/ act this way towards one another?

How are these actions productive in any way towards furthering your team/side/faction to victory?


I guess the point to this thread, is that, you may not agree with what one person says, and you may not agree with advice offered or a statement made. But that doesn't give you the excuse to insult or be rude and immature to whoever offered it or stated it. After all, you're on the same side, so why not try to make it as pleasant as possible for everyone that's working towards the same goal to help your side win?

In-game etiquette people, In-game etiquette, I can't stress this enough.

MoonUnit
16-03-2007, 01:10
No manners in PvP it seems. :undecided:

BlackMass
16-03-2007, 01:15
As a rather new arrival to the world of AB, I tend to take in the advice that those like you put out there before and during a match. I may not ask any questions during the match, I'm usually too busy trying to get a handle on my smite monk build, but just so you know for every person that doesn't like the advice you're giving there's one quiet one like myself reading what you and others have to say and taking the advice to learn a bit more about ABing.

Azriels Death
16-03-2007, 01:28
That's obviously a good thing to hear Blackmass. Any advice given about strategies, styles of play, and general gameplay in competitive areas like AB should always be tested. Who knows, no matter how absurd it may sound, it may actually turn out to be good, sound advice. It could also turn out to be just plain bad advice, but it's up to people to actually test the given advice before they take it as complete truth that they would swear by, or as something completely idiotic.

Lytel
16-03-2007, 01:40
I think it's funny at the start how everybody tries to achieve 4-4-4, and it usually takes about a minute of moving around to get it right. If there were 3 teams of 4 in a class of 5 year olds, and you told each person to go and stand with their team, I'm sure they wouldn't find it as hard as people in AB. :P

shardfenix
16-03-2007, 04:19
You know what's funny about those pics? That guy knows what he's talking about. You win AB by capping shrines and killing enemy stragglers, not by getting killed to their MM mob. Learn how to play before criticizing other people.

Azriels Death
16-03-2007, 05:18
The comments highlighted in Green were from me by the way, hence the character name. The ones highlighted in Red were from the person complaining about me trying to be helpful. Just thought I'd clear this up if it had been misunderstood in any way. :cool:

Little Hex
16-03-2007, 07:54
Because of ppl like you, I turn off my sound and team chat, people like you really annoy me in AB.

JodoKast
16-03-2007, 10:46
How do you manage to spend your time chatting AND capping points at the same time ? From what i can see, you didn't loose that game because of the mobbing but because people were too busy chatting with you :) At some point its more efficient to let people do what they feel like instead of over engineer strat on random teams

Fae
16-03-2007, 11:30
Sadly, this happens to everyone. And I'm on both sides of the fence of the issue.

I'll occasionally say things like "less mobbing, more capping" or "cappity cap cap please!" but usually no more than once or twice a match. After that it's futile. It's also really annoying when someone in your team is screaming at you to cap when you're doing the best you can.

I can chat, cap and do other things in the same time in ABs. And am often holding conversations in game, on another computer and successfully keeping my team alive / killing. Some people can multi-task, others don't do it so well.

Some PvPers *do* have manners. Just like some PvE-ers really need to be smacked with the "please pay attention for more than 30 seconds" stick. Sometimes in ABs you'll get the people who listen, sometimes you wont. And remember, the same thing is happening to the other team.

In short, don't fret about it. The other team will have the same problem in the next match :D

Silicon Based
16-03-2007, 12:17
As pointed out in the original post, unfortunately many ppl playing AB do not know what the purpose is of the game, or if they do, they do not know how to achieve this best. Fighting the opposing parties MOB is not the way to go. But that aside.

Some advice of more experienced AB players would not harm anybody I would say, whether you already heard it before or not.

It is a shame that AB often is spoiled by leechers. Even worse was an example I experienced yesterday were one team player X wrote to the other player Y: "player Y, start moving or else I leave!", a couple of seconds player X left the game and a short while after player Y started moving!
Leeching is one thing that is very annoying but even worse is leaving because one thinks another player is leeching/afk!

AB is built up mostly around random teams, which often makes it necessary to inform new players of the rules of the game, but also often results in disconcerted actions of your team, running/fighting/capping at random, no overall goal or plan.

This will probably not change in the near future, unless one could join an empty district with guildies or alliance only and join the battle, I do not know how players are then divided by the server over 1 or more AB games, but if people in one district are placed in the same game, you could have AB goals achieved as a true team effort.

qvtkc
16-03-2007, 12:32
Why is it necessary to insult those that are only trying to help?First off, I laughed when I saw the pic... You know what you are talking about, but no one in your team cares. Been there. Loads of times.

But you know what? What did you do?

1) Piss off people who do know what to do, and don't need or want to be told it as if they were 6-year-olds.

2) Piss off people who don't know what to do since you assume they don't know what they are doing - in general, even if you are right, assuming that someone is a moron will only offend them.

So you only managed to make your own team less motivated to play. I see that you are Kurzick, so either stop it, or switch sides.

Azriels Death
16-03-2007, 17:52
At the time I had stated the first two comments the match hadn't even started yet. So I refuse to believe that I was hindering myself or anyone else from furthering the process of moving towards a shrine. Also the comments "Guys turn around", "Don't Attack them" "Nooooo" were made right before the other three members of my team along with people who weren't even on my team rushed straight into the elite warrior shrine when there were about 8 or 9 enemies waiting along with the 3 NPCs. The comment "WTF 4 can take on 8 I'm sure" was made directly after the random person decided to start PMing me throughout the entirety of the match, instead of doing what was obvious and leading their team AWAY from the mob and capping the shrines that were left totally open. As you can see from the screen logwas also in the process of solo capping the Ranger shrine before a couple of people who actually knew what to do showed up and helped finish off the last NPC. I didn't make anymore comments or statements after the first PM I received as I decided it was useless to even try. So it wasn't as if I were constantly trying to tell people what to do, or constantly trying to tell people where to go.

Secondly, I among others who do the same IMO, offer this kind of advice and tips for the benefit of players who may be new to AB, or may not quite have an understanding of what to do, Not for people who have been playing AB since the release of Factions and have a firm grip on the concept of capturing shrines, kiting, and things of the sort. There's absolutely no sense in being belligerent, venomous or rude to those who offer it as it is clearly not meant for those who already know it. Whether the advice is actually heeded by people or not is a different story, that's their choice. No one else can force them to follow.

And as for me being Kurzick, yes this is true. But I really show no preference to either side, as I have played on both sides before and find them both to be equally strategic and tactful at times. To me, it's exactly what it is. A game. It's not "Take that Luxon ******* out!" it's "Hey that Derv is coming to cap this shrine, stop him." And vice versa. There's really no sense in assuming that this thread was meant to do nothing more than discriminate against one Faction or the other, as assuming will never get you very far.

qvtkc
16-03-2007, 19:09
Secondly, I among others who do the same IMO, offer this kind of advice and tips for the benefit of players who may be new to AB, or may not quite have an understanding of what to do, Not for people who have been playing AB since the release of Factions and have a firm grip on the concept of capturing shrines, kiting, and things of the sort. There's absolutely no sense in being belligerent, venomous or rude to those who offer it as it is clearly not meant for those who already know it. Whether the advice is actually heeded by people or not is a different story, that's their choice. No one else can force them to follow.You should know that I completely agree with you. But you asked why people felt it necessary to insult you. I never said it made any sense, but people do all kinds of things that make no sense.

Anyway, what I meant was this: You have three kinds of people. 1) Those who know how to play. 2) Those too stupid to learn how to play. 3) Genuinely new players.

The people in (1) don't need you to tell them, and they probably think it's sort of annoying. Those in (2) probably don't want to listen since they don't like it when people point out that they are stupid (those are the ones who commented and whispered you). This only leaves the fraction of people who are (3). They probably appreciated being told how it works, though, so even if you don't know it since they never told you, you might have helped someone.

Azriels Death
16-03-2007, 19:49
Nice point qvtkc. The former 2 groups are the ones I'm least concered about, as they obviously don't care or actually know what they're doing.

The latter group is what concerns me the most. As I know I went through a hell of a time trying to figure out exactly what to do when I first started AB, and any advice that was given to me at that time was always tested at least. What I would like people new to AB to understand, is that not everyone is going to ignore you, and that not everyone is going to insult you for not knowing what to do or where to go. Even if the advice I give only helps one person, it makes me feel better knowing that that's one less person who's going to be embarassed about asking a question that may seem obvious or silly, or one less person who's afraid of getting their team into deep **** for running around, randomly, not knowing what to do.

So if my trying to give advice or tips to this latter group pisses people off, so be it. I really don't care. PM me if you will, insult me all you like, but doing so isn't accomplishing anything besides wasting time, and putting you out of the game long enough to put the rest of your team at a complete disadvantage.

mmorpg man
16-03-2007, 22:18
I don't bother chatting once the game has begun. I usually say at the beginning before the game starts "cap as fast as possible" but then i just use the draw function on the minimap which is a lot quicker than chatting.

I have also observed that the tanks (warriors, sins and dervs) are the ones who go against the ohrase "cap not kill" and run straight towards the nearest mob thinking they are indestructable. they then drag the other team members with them because he needs support and the other members know it. the end result is we all die and end up back at base:angry:

David Holtzman
16-03-2007, 23:11
After this transpired, it brought a few question to mind:

Why is it necessary to insult those that are only trying to help?

You weren't trying to help, you were telling him what to do. He made it clear he doesn't care what you think, and you kept at it. You are surprised this annoys him? He probably shouldn't be insulting you, but by what right do you give him commands? It's one thing to give commands to your party as party leader, but there is no leader of the 3 combined teams.

Lady Jade
16-03-2007, 23:43
I have learned in my time participating in AB, to stay with people i'm confident know how to play and do our part; but never direct any comments to anyone else. It's just asking for immature insults and comments directed your way. At least you *know* you've pulled your weight and done your best. And that's really all you can expect. I usually get enough comments from touchers, assassins, and wammos infuriated at me for simply doing what you are supposed to do in AB; killing them. I'm sure you may have experienced that aswell; but the bottom line is sometimes it's best to let people learn by their constant failing strategies and ignore them. You may lose matches when things go haywire, but trying to give people advice that's not wanted won't help the match go smoothly either.

Kairin
17-03-2007, 00:16
No human is perfect and thus nothing humans take part in can ever be perfect, maybe damn near, but never perfect. GW is no exception :P

To be honest, I think your wasting your energy, people who are good and thus know what they are doing dont need to be told, people who are bad and think they know what they are doing wont listen/will throw insults

I think its admirable you are trying to help people and a few people may actually listen and learn, but honestly you are just wasting your time, just try and make the best of it, a few hints to cap like one poster said is the msot you should bother with :)

Natus
17-03-2007, 02:01
That just gets extremely annoying. Please, it's AB, not serious PvP, most people go for fun. Lighten up.

Azriels Death
17-03-2007, 04:15
You weren't trying to help, you were telling him what to do. He made it clear he doesn't care what you think, and you kept at it. You are surprised this annoys him? He probably shouldn't be insulting you, but by what right do you give him commands? It's one thing to give commands to your party as party leader, but there is no leader of the 3 combined teams.

Wow....just....wow. Did you read any of my previous posts aside from the original? If you hadn't noticed from the log I had taken, or any of the previous posts, I wasn't commanding anyone in particular, I was simply explaining in general how to counteract a mob tactic before the match started. There were 12 people fully functioning on our side (no leechers), yet this one person decided to throw a fit, and accuse me of "Whining" over 3 lines of text.

Secondly, that person wasn't even on my team. It was just someone who was being immature and childish, and taking the time that they could be contributing to their team away from them by standing in one place throughout the entire match, non-stop pm'ing me over something so trivial.

Third, once again if you had taken the time to read any of my previous posts, you'd see that it was explained that what I'm trying to do, along with others who do the same, is trying to give newer players a more thorough understanding, and a better concept of how AB works.

I could care less about what some high and mighty, holier than thou,
"1337" player thinks of my actions. If they want to be smug, and idiotic, let them rush straight into a mob where the chance of survival immediately drops to 0. If they want to hinder the learning of others by never giving any advice whatsoever, or insulting people that ask "n00b" questions, that's a different story altogether.

That is exactly what I've been trying to prevent. The limitation of knowledge, and the spreading of knowledge. If you know something useful, then share it with others, don't deprive newer players of something that could help them just because your ego gets in the way. I can assure you that your "skillz" won't immediately disappear the second you share information with someone who isn't as "1337" as you are. I can't count how many times I've been in AB and RA, and had one of those people running around Tigering everyone and then rushing straight into the fray and dropping dead immediately. Only to be followed up with "rez!!11!!" or "n00b <insert profession here>" and it's people like that who are hindering the community with their elitism and know-it-all attitudes.



That just gets extremely annoying. Please, it's AB, not serious PvP, most people go for fun. Lighten up.

Good Natus, I'm glad that you find it so annoying. That just means you know what to do already doesn't it?:wink: I wasn't being sarcastic by the way either, it's awesome that there are people who actually know what to do. But just because you in particular know what to do, doesn't exactly mean the other 11 people do, does it? I'm not trying to force my suggestions unto others, as that's all they are. Suggestions.

But take this for example: If you were without a guild at the time, and it was your first time going through a mission, and you didn't know about wiki, wouldn't it have been nice if there were someone in the group who had gone through the mission before, and could walk everyone through it one step at a time? Or how about the first time you tried to farm a certain monster for that green you really needed? Wouldn't it have been great if there were someone who would have gone with you the first time and said for example, "Ok, now stand here until XX amount of mobs go by and then use XX." ?


My point being, is that not everyone knows absolutely everything, but everyone does know something about a certain something else, that others may not.

For example: Johnny Wammo and Donny Dervish are both in <insert outpost/town here>. Donny Dervish is an older character than Johnny Wammo, and has a better knowledge of the area surrounding <insert outpost/town here>. So in the midst of all the chatter going around town, Johnny Wammo poses the question, "Does anyone know where to find <insert boss here>"? Donny Dervish sees this, and immediately knows exactly who Johnny Wammo is talking about, and knows exactly where to find him, along with what Johnny Wammo needs to bring to defeat him. Donny Dervish walks up to Johnny Wammo and whispers to him, "Yeah, I know right where he's at, and I can take you to him. But you should probably bring, <insert skill/s here> cause it makes it go a little easier." Donny Dervish then escorts Johnny Wammo outside of <insert outpost/town here> where they find <insert boss here> and Johnny Wammo gets what he needed.

The benefit for Johnny Wammo? Getting what he needed. The benefit for Donny Dervish? Hopefully a thank you, and the feeling of knowing that he had just helped someone and most likely made their day.

Shuuda
17-03-2007, 08:37
Azriels Death, you remind me a bit of my self, before I quit, AB, and that's in a bad way, lighten up, have fun, quit being such a wet blanket, if they wanna kill things, let them. The reason I quit AB was because I hate failure (Which due to some people's tactics) Happened a lot, but might return since RA is somewhat..... ya know. And I'll make a Vow not to be a bossy taskmaster anymore.

And one other thing, I don't always think 4-4-4 is the best, as a Luxon I find that going 3-5-4 on grenz works well, it's allows better chance of overpowering the res shrine, and using the eles from the left shrine, 3 people can defend it.

David Holtzman
17-03-2007, 08:47
Wow....just....wow. Did you read any of my previous posts aside from the original?

Nope, I just read the OP. Why, do you have a habit of spacing out the necesary content of your posts over time?


If you hadn't noticed from the log I had taken, or any of the previous posts, I wasn't commanding anyone in particular, I was simply explaining in general how to counteract a mob tactic before the match started.

OK, I'm gonna assume you haven't studied semantics. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since its a course few take the odds are in my favor. There are several types of sentences: there are assertions, queries, imperatives, and so on. The kind we're concerned with is imperatives, or commands. You can recognize commands because some person A is giving a set of instructions to person B without using a query. For example the difference between "Would you like to stand over there?" and "Stand over there." You gave commands. Some examples from your text include, "...DO NOT try and fight the mob," and "done t fight them nooooo." An explanation is done with assertions, not imperatives. For example the difference between "If they mob we can cap around them" and "if they mob, cap around them." The former is an assertion. It asserts some proposition, namely the conditional. The latter is an imperative, it gives a set of instructions without a query.


Secondly, that person wasn't even on my team.

Indeed, that is my point. If someone joins your team it's fair enough to give them commands. That's why there is a position called "Party Leader." Someone not in your team however did not consent to your leadership. As such, you shouldn't give them commands. Asserting facts, informing people, are all fine but not the same thing.


It was just someone who was being immature and childish, and taking the time that they could be contributing to their team away from them by standing in one place throughout the entire match, non-stop pm'ing me over something so trivial.

I agree, they shouldn't be PM spamming you. Nevertheless, that changes nothing of my point about commanding others.


Third, once again if you had taken the time to read any of my previous posts, you'd see that it was explained that what I'm trying to do, along with others who do the same, is trying to give newer players a more thorough understanding, and a better concept of how AB works.

I don't particularly care what you were trying to do, I care what you did. Unless perhaps you think this nameless other person magically read your mind and disagreed with your intentions?


That is exactly what I've been trying to prevent. The limitation of knowledge, and the spreading of knowledge. If you know something useful, then share it with others, don't deprive newer players of something that could help them just because your ego gets in the way.

Sharing is fine and good, but don't command people. Not if you expect them to appreciate it. You can of course command them, but if you do you have to expect a certain set of consequences that will most commonly occur.

mmorpg man
17-03-2007, 12:18
But take this for example: If you were without a guild at the time, and it was your first time going through a mission, and you didn't know about wiki, wouldn't it have been nice if there were someone in the group who had gone through the mission before, and could walk everyone through it one step at a time? Or how about the first time you tried to farm a certain monster for that green you really needed? Wouldn't it have been great if there were someone who would have gone with you the first time and said for example, "Ok, now stand here until XX amount of mobs go by and then use XX." ?

for once i'll agree with you on this fact. I remember when I first started factions I didn't know what's what at all. then a friend of mine came along and helped me get to grips with the controls, etc. he gave me some very useful hints about gameplay and battle tactics in PvE.

now I try to pass that information and guidence onto others who were like me and they have said it was really helpful. for example I had gone back to do a mission which I had completed but hadn't got masters. when I entered the team everyone was like "which way?". I then said I had done the mission before so they said I should lead them. In my opinion when people enter a new environment they need someone to show them the ropes otherwise the game turns into a boring tiresome excercise effectively taking all the fun out of it. however I do accept there is a line between giving help and commanding players what to do. commanding playing also takes the fun out of the game as well.

people need to understand where giving helpful advice becomes commanding the other players to do what you want them to do.

martialis
17-03-2007, 18:41
Mobbing is fun. If I wanted to cap shrines, I'd play hero battles. :sad:

I guess my advice is to enjoy ABs more, or maybe take a break. 12v12 battles are the best thing in this game.

Zalis
17-03-2007, 19:09
Mobbing is counter-productive in AB, unless you're winning. Play something else if you're not playing to win, or at least going to try to win. Don't waste the time of your other 11 teammates. AB is fun, but not when people purposely ignore the mechanics and waste your time.

On top of that, 1/3 of all AB players are too busy shouting leet smack talk on both "sydez". Hate that too. I feel like much of GW's PvP has the same mentality as Counter-Strike does. And that, my friends, is a bad thing.

Play clean, have fun. But, for goodness sake, don't ignore the way things work.

mmorpg man
17-03-2007, 20:40
yeah css (for those of you who have played it) has turned all serious with people calling each other "noobs" constandly. this is not the way to play any online game

Ryuujinx
18-03-2007, 09:13
No manners in PvP it seems. :undecided:

I PvP and I have manners :cry:

halfthought
18-03-2007, 19:19
see, at fist it was 12v12

now its 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 with no cohesion between the chaotic masses

Tucks
19-03-2007, 08:16
Its AB, what do you expect?

Lytel
19-03-2007, 08:54
see, at fist it was 12v12

now its 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 with no cohesion between the chaotic masses
I think it was always like that. :)

The most coordination you get is 4 players working together, usually a guild team. It's hopeless to get all 12 to work together when:

1. they are all random and never met before
2. they can't see each other's bars in the party window
3. most are PvE only players ;)

Sharn mes
19-03-2007, 12:43
Just take AB for what it is and dont get worked up over how bad some play... It will eat you up until you hate AB to much to play. Not worth it.

Juiced
19-03-2007, 14:36
That asside the OP isn't 100% right, yes capping is important, but if u keep capping and the opposing teams keep capping, all u do is walking in circles having the same amount of points. When I join a random team I normally go with the flow, if I make one I ask the members in my team to please follow me, even if they see a lone caster they want to slice, or a stupid wammo to annoy. But I ask it once, if they don't listen I don't care, if I die I go for the nearest and/or most crucial team member and stick with him/her, if my team follows me I occasionaly draw on the map to decide what shrine we go for, and that's it. However if I see 4-3 3-4 in shrines all the time, I sometimes engage an 8 man party with my smaller 4 man party. Depending on how long we survive, we buy our allies a window to keep capping, while the opponent only has 1 team wandering around on a capping streak. Once u have 6 shrines I normally move close to the enemy basis and start attacking everything that comes out, very often the enemy takes the bait and u build up enough points to make it a certain win. If everyone was playing according to what the OP says, winning would become more of a random thing.

Most of the times others do the mobbing though, either because they don't know, like epic battles and enonormous amounts of yellow numbers or just saw a trend and buy ur and the other team some time. Capping is important, mobbing when the time is right as well.

mmorpg man
19-03-2007, 19:56
yeah i guess your right. there are some people who take the ame too seriously (don't get out enough) and piss everyone off with their ranting whenever they die

Razma Dreizehn
22-03-2007, 02:55
You know what's funny about those pics? That guy knows what he's talking about. You win AB by capping shrines and killing enemy stragglers, not by getting killed to their MM mob. Learn how to play before criticizing other people.

You win the thread.















If this was reversal day.

Esrien
23-03-2007, 06:54
There is too little cooperative play, you got so many different kind of people, people who want to win, who want to piss off your team and be a jerk, who want to just play for fun, or are just complete <insert inappropriate language here>!
2 matches in a row, my guild were the only ones who were capping. Other 8 members just charges into the mob one by one and just dies one by one. We told them to stay away from the mob but noooo and they keep on charging, and everyone is calling each other 'NOOBS!!' until we lose like 89ish(my guild got like 80 of those points) to 385ish(that's when we just left)

Supreme Commander
23-03-2007, 14:29
People always talk about "playing for fun" and stuff, but would losing by blindly running into giant mobs be a little boring after a while? I think fun-players should give a little more attention to some better tactics in AB. After all, improving and by that winning more AB's is something I think is fun. Usually when we're losing, I'm pretty much all by myself trying to cap some shrines in the back, I call for someone to aid me, but sometimes people just seem to ignore anything that might turn the tide and that what annoys me most. Some people just don't seem to care about trying to win... Then I think like.... It's pvp, it's "competitive", you want to win. Isn't at least trying something new than just trying to kill the whole mob (which can be possible, but not if they have the central res shrine) and die trying all the time. You can run past, them, get into the back of the field. Call some teammates to reorganise at some part of the map. Usually 1 or 2 will see you get to their side, in a goup you'll just roll em.

In short: get that strange jellyish thingy right in the top of your head to work a little bit harder, keeping it active might increase your IQ by a point or 2 too =)

Alleji
26-03-2007, 19:30
Sorry, don't have access to Photoshop on library computers, but just pretend the picture says "Alliance Battles" instead of "Internets", k?

http://jeroenr.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/internets.jpg