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shardfenix
19-03-2007, 04:17
In this short article/post I will detail why nobody plays Heroes' Ascent anymore, and how it can be fixed. The opinions suggested in this post are the culminations of ideas from many of my friends, who used to love HA, but now find it utterly disgusting. Hopefully Arenanet will see this post and actually use their heads. I will NOT mention any other arenas, for the purposes of keeping it simple.

The way it used to be
Heroes' Ascent (and Tombs of the Primeval Kings) were never perfect. There were always complaints about it, and there were always "gimmick" builds - builds which can be run effectively without much skill or thought. Many seasoned players agree that the Hall of Heroes ladder was at its best during Prophecies, when the only real gimmick was air spike. Every build had a counter, and every build had a stretegy. With the exception of gank maps (burial mounds, broken tower, scarred earth, and Courtyard), if your team was good, you would win most of the time.

With the removal of multi-team maps before Factions was released, getting to HoH became easier for pressure builds and spikes. Like it had always been, holding teams would climb through the maps in an effort to fend off the pressure caused by two teams ganking you. The mechanics for HA were made the most fair after Factions was released, when the only "gank maps" were altar maps, in which the defending team had an advantage anyway.

Why Heroes' Ascent Sucks
Today, Heroes' Ascent maps have three main objectives: 1: Gank and farm the weakest team
2: Have more snares than your opponents
3: Run meta or lose

Kill Count
With the introduction of multi-team kill count matches, the stretegy is simple: Get the easiest kills faster than the other guys. Why make it a fair 3-way when you can race another team to see how many of yellow you can kill first?

In a 3-way, who don't you attack? Obviously you will try to avoid the team who presents the biggest threat to you. Since 99% of teams in HA run metatrash (2 sins, 2 eles, 2 monks), when a "different" build comes along to broken, they naturally become a threat. This prevents new builds from forming, and it prevents innovative teams from winning.

SOLUTION TO KILL COUNT: Nerf the overpowered defensive builds, then make kill count a 1v1.

Relic Runs
Relics have always been an integral part of HA. It prevents overly defensive teams from winning (they cant win if all they do is live). However, there are far too many and too convenient ways of snaring opponents. Freezing gust and shadow prison are now placed in EVERY HA build. Running a relic with a permanent 66%-90% slowdown is impossible. People don't even fight on relics anymore.

Heroes' Ascent relic runs are even worse. People who play with me in game know how stupid I think 3-way relic runs are. There isn't a word for it yet, but it would be a mix of pointless, waste of time, retarded, and thoughtless. The winner is determined when the match starts. It's simple: If you have more snares than the other teams, you win. Watch observe in HoH right now. Find a match with a relic run and press "o". Notice how nobody ever takes damage?

SOLUTION TO HOH RELIC RUNS: Discontinue them.
SOLUTION TO OTHER RELIC RUNS: People with relics can't move faster or slower.

Build Dynamics
If the above two flaws with HA are fixed, only one problem exists: Too many overpowered skills exist in the game. Gimmicks will always exist. Lazy and bad players will always find new ways of winning without having skill or a thought process. This is fine, but not when you can thoughtlessly give your team invincibility via skills (yes it can be done). This is solely Isaiah's job, whether he gets it right or not is up to him. I was very pleased with the last balance. He looked at which overused skills are overpowered, and changed them accordingly. He didn't add any random nerfs or random buffs. We need more skill balances like this Izzy, even if you only do a few skills at a time.

As a final suggestion to the people at arenanet, I beg of you, read the forums and listen to your fans. Doing the 100% opposite of what we suggest has only ruined your game. Trust me, the players know what will make the game better.

Also, fix uncharted isle's doors.[ /bugreport]

Tucks
19-03-2007, 07:55
The way it used to be
Heroes' Ascent (and Tombs of the Primeval Kings) were never perfect. There were always complaints about it, and there were always "gimmick" builds - builds which can be run effectively without much skill or thought. Many seasoned players agree that the Hall of Heroes ladder was at its best during Prophecies, when the only real gimmick was air spike. Every build had a counter, and every build had a stretegy. With the exception of gank maps (burial mounds, broken tower, scarred earth, and Courtyard), if your team was good, you would win most of the time.

With the removal of multi-team maps before Factions was released, getting to HoH became easier for pressure builds and spikes. Like it had always been, holding teams would climb through the maps in an effort to fend off the pressure caused by two teams ganking you. The mechanics for HA were made the most fair after Factions was released, when the only "gank maps" were altar maps, in which the defending team had an advantage anyway.

Air spike was the only gimmick? Are you kidding me? Alot of the most notorious gimmicks came from then. IWAY, Spirit spam, Bloodspike and Rangerspike.


Why Heroes' Ascent Sucks
Today, Heroes' Ascent maps have three main objectives:

* 1: Gank and farm the weakest team
* 2: Have more snares than your opponents
* 3: Run meta or lose

1: Not always, usually people go for the non-gimmick, as they perceive it to be weak. In my experience the "weakest" team can usually turn this into an advantage by positioning themselves in a manner where the teams cant fight them without exposing their back line to the third team, then sweeping in and pinching a team while they are engaged.

2: Take a decent dom mesmer, or any sort of shutdown and lock the snare guy down. It isn't hard.

3: You're an idiot/poor player if you think that.



Kill Count
With the introduction of multi-team kill count matches, the stretegy is simple: Get the easiest kills faster than the other guys. Why make it a fair 3-way when you can race another team to see how many of yellow you can kill first?

In a 3-way, who don't you attack? Obviously you will try to avoid the team who presents the biggest threat to you. Since 99% of teams in HA run metatrash (2 sins, 2 eles, 2 monks), when a "different" build comes along to broken, they naturally become a threat. This prevents new builds from forming, and it prevents innovative teams from winning.

SOLUTION TO KILL COUNT: Nerf the overpowered defensive builds, then make kill count a 1v1.

99% of the teams run the "metatrash" because they think it is good, and it is extremely easy to run. Drop AoE and sin spike some ****.

I used to hate killcount, but now i like it on broken but hate it on courtyard.
Leave Broken as it is, but change courtyard somehow, maybe make it an old school 1v1 altar. Why do i hate courtyard? It is one huge network of narrow paths, except an area in the middle that you don't use anyway, as you will get pinched. This encourages AoE builds way too much (partly why people run 2sins, 2eles, 2monks so much).


Relic Runs
Relics have always been an integral part of HA. It prevents overly defensive teams from winning (they cant win if all they do is live). However, there are far too many and too convenient ways of snaring opponents. Freezing gust and shadow prison are now placed in EVERY HA build. Running a relic with a permanent 66%-90% slowdown is impossible. People don't even fight on relics anymore.

Heroes' Ascent relic runs are even worse. People who play with me in game know how stupid I think 3-way relic runs are. There isn't a word for it yet, but it would be a mix of pointless, waste of time, retarded, and thoughtless. The winner is determined when the match starts. It's simple: If you have more snares than the other teams, you win. Watch observe in HoH right now. Find a match with a relic run and press "o". Notice how nobody ever takes damage?

SOLUTION TO HOH RELIC RUNS: Discontinue them.
SOLUTION TO OTHER RELIC RUNS: People with relics can't move faster or slower.

Relic runs are fine, run a decent dom mesmer and the snares are gone. The problem is the fact that in a 6v6 format people aren't taking as much utility. The utility that is taken tends to be extra defense, such as wards or blind.

Relic runs are also one of my favorite maps, because it encourages people to play tactically. As to the whole "If they have loads of snares, they win" thing, i call Bull****. There is hundreds of ways to get around that, for example force them to split the monks, overpower one, kill the person he was guarding, oh look - you have killed their ghost, runner, or snarer. Granted it isn't always that easy, but (this isn't meant to be bragging) with my guild we rarely loose relic runs, no matter how many snares they have.

What does need changing is the map designs - the choke in the first relic run. Fix that, or fix the "Z axis" bug, and the fact you can block an entire team into their base with 1 guy in the second run.

With 3 decent teams in the halls it isn't like that. It generally ends up a very close match, as the teams allocate their snares/blocks as to who is furthest ahead.

If it is Team 1 - 6, Team 2 - 3, Team 3 - 5, Teams 2 and 3 will snare/block team 1, team 1 will snare/block team 3. This allows team 2 to catch up, slowing down team 1 most, team 3 a bit, and team 2 not at all. Anyone who is slowing down team 2 is pretty stupid if they are that far behind.



Build Dynamics
If the above two flaws with HA are fixed, only one problem exists: Too many overpowered skills exist in the game. Gimmicks will always exist. Lazy and bad players will always find new ways of winning without having skill or a thought process. This is fine, but not when you can thoughtlessly give your team invincibility via skills (yes it can be done). This is solely Isaiah's job, whether he gets it right or not is up to him. I was very pleased with the last balance. He looked at which overused skills are overpowered, and changed them accordingly. He didn't add any random nerfs or random buffs. We need more skill balances like this Izzy, even if you only do a few skills at a time.

That has to do with the mentality of the players in HA, and the fact that 6v6 is too limiting. The skills aren't that bad, but people aren't packing the counters anymore.

B Ephekt
19-03-2007, 11:20
Shard your posts are always great comedy.

bellissima
19-03-2007, 15:50
I used to hate killcount, but now i like it on broken but hate it on courtyard.
Leave Broken as it is, but change courtyard somehow, maybe make it an old school 1v1 altar. Why do i hate courtyard? It is one huge network of narrow paths, except an area in the middle that you don't use anyway, as you will get pinched. This encourages AoE builds way too much (partly why people run 2sins, 2eles, 2monks so much).


I agree with parts of this. I think it should stay a 3-way but not kill count for the reasons you state about map layout. However, don't put it back to the original altar capping mechanic where the team holding altar at the end wins (otherwise known as 3-way staring match for 8 minutes). Use the newer mechanic seen in HoH objectives, where you earn points the longer you hold altar. This means you fight the whole ten minutes rather than just the last two.

Tucks
19-03-2007, 16:50
I agree with parts of this. I think it should stay a 3-way but not kill count for the reasons you state about map layout. However, don't put it back to the original altar capping mechanic where the team holding altar at the end wins (otherwise known as 3-way staring match for 8 minutes). Use the newer mechanic seen in HoH objectives, where you earn points the longer you hold altar. This means you fight the whole ten minutes rather than just the last two.

I said 1v1 altar, like broken tower used to be.

bellissima
19-03-2007, 17:04
I said 1v1 altar, like broken tower used to be.

And I said I thought it should stay 3-way and take the new King of the Hill mechanic. Was there some confusion or are we allowed to have different opinions? :confused1:

Tucks
19-03-2007, 17:11
And I said I thought it should stay 3-way and take the new King of the Hill mechanic. Was there some confusion or are we allowed to have different opinions? :confused1:

Eh - sorry misread. Need sleep -.-.

I assumed where you said "However, don't put it back to the original altar capping mechanic where the team holding altar at the end wins (otherwise known as 3-way staring match for 8 minutes).", that you thought i wanted it as 3 way.

B Ephekt
19-03-2007, 20:38
Holding was more fun. Kill count isn't that bad, but it has just as much randomness as alter holding ever did. You can still get ganked, you still have scrubs winning with one dimensional builds, luck still plays a part in winning, etc.

Relic runs are fine. Pre-veil the runner, prioritize condition removal, body block, snare and you're fine.

The problem is that tombs just isn't fun anymore. I doubt anything they do will change that, the community is gone. Every decent player has either moved on to GvG or quit GW entirely, only a handful remain and they're just farming their remaining fame `til r12.

shardfenix
20-03-2007, 02:26
Air spike was the only gimmick? Are you kidding me? Alot of the most notorious gimmicks came from then. IWAY, Spirit spam, Bloodspike and Rangerspike.Iway came LONG after air spike. I started pvping a few weeks before spirit psamming got nerfed, and until that december, IWAY hadnt existed yet. I was talking about the ~4 month period where the only gimmicks were air spike and kindle arrows spike.


2: Take a decent dom mesmer, or any sort of shutdown and lock the snare guy down. It isn't hard.
Yeah because dom mesmers fit so well into 6 man builds. And shutting down 1 guy when 4 have snares is a really thoughtful solution. Use your head before saying something stupid.


3: You're an idiot/poor player if you think that.K you run a "new" build in broken tower and see if you win. 9 times out of 10, you won't. Read the entire post before opening your very loud mouth.


99% of the teams run the "metatrash" because they think it is good, and it is extremely easy to run. Drop AoE and sin spike some ****.Which brings me to another good point: People who HA a lot are stupid. If you think meta is good, I have two letters for you: RC. I can't remember the last time metatrash beat me when I had an RC monk.


I used to hate killcount, but now i like it on broken but hate it on courtyard.Remember when you called me an idiot?

Relic runs are also one of my favorite maps, because it encourages people to play tactically. As to the whole "If they have loads of snares, they win" thing, i call Bull****. There is hundreds of ways to get around that, for example force them to split the monks, overpower one, kill the person he was guarding, oh look - you have killed their ghost, runner, or snarer. Granted it isn't always that easy, but (this isn't meant to be bragging) with my guild we rarely loose relic runs, no matter how many snares they have.Again, read the whole post before blabbing your big mouth. Did you happen to read the part where I said "HoH relics" You know the ones where you don't need a ghost to cap?


What does need changing is the map designs - the choke in the first relic run. Fix that, or fix the "Z axis" bug, and the fact you can block an entire team into their base with 1 guy in the second run.The "Z axis bug" is not a bug, it's a function of heightmap terrain. They will never fix it because they can't.


With 3 decent teams in the halls it isn't like that. It generally ends up a very close match, as the teams allocate their snares/blocks as to who is furthest ahead.Which equals the worst team not getting ganked, and the best team getting ganked. This is "fair" how?

The skills aren't that bad, but people aren't packing the counters anymore.
Wow I don't say this very often in PvP forums, but please pvp before posting here.

The only thing they improved about HoH is the new altar objective. Being "Hold the altar longer than everyone else" instead of "12x sandstorm at 15 second mark cap at last second" is much more challenging.

Tucks
20-03-2007, 09:45
You just proved that you are an idiot, Good job.


Iway came LONG after air spike. I started pvping a few weeks before spirit psamming got nerfed, and until that december, IWAY hadnt existed yet. I was talking about the ~4 month period where the only gimmicks were air spike and kindle arrows spike.

You said during proph, not during the first 4 months of the game. Next time say what you mean? It wasn't balanced anyway, it is just that the gimmicks weren't thought of yet, and that the general skill level was lower then current.



Yeah because dom mesmers fit so well into 6 man builds. And shutting down 1 guy when 4 have snares is a really thoughtful solution. Use your head before saying something stupid.

Dom mesmers are excellent if your team is decent. 4 people never have solid snares (not shadow prison or **** like that, but stuff like freezing gust that can be maintained. Holy veil > longer snares like prison.) I didn't say something stupid, it is just that you are a bit dense and don't understand how the game works. Sorry :(.


K you run a "new" build in broken tower and see if you win. 9 times out of 10, you won't. Read the entire post before opening your very loud mouth.
Which brings me to another good point: People who HA a lot are stupid. If you think meta is good, I have two letters for you: RC. I can't remember the last time metatrash beat me when I had an RC monk.

I do, regularly. And i win a lot too. 9 times out of 10 i do win. This isn't bragging, just the truth used to make a point.



Remember when you called me an idiot?

I'm an idiot? Oh sorry, actually taking the map design and positioning into account is idiocy? I'd better quit Guild Wars as you OBVIOUSLY know so much more about it then me.


Again, read the whole post before blabbing your big mouth. Did you happen to read the part where I said "HoH relics" You know the ones where you don't need a ghost to cap?

If you didn't notice, i talked about both types of the runs. How about you stop being a hypocrite?


Which equals the worst team not getting ganked, and the best team getting ganked. This is "fair" how?

No, it means the team that is currently ahead being ganked. The ones with the most speed buffs? The best team will pull somthing out of the hat near the end and jump ahead one, the bad ones will mindlessly run relics.


Wow I don't say this very often in PvP forums, but please pvp before posting here.

Meaningless flame. I could list all my stuff to show that i do have experience, but to be honest i don't see the point. I already know you are probably a bad player from what you said, so I'm not going to whip out my Epeen. (It would crush you anyway)

Ace Bear
20-03-2007, 21:44
Wow I don't say this very often in PvP forums, but please pvp before posting here.
After reading through all the fun stuff posted above I had to quote this. You say that all the time on here. And most of your posts show that you don't pvp(or don't do it right).

shardfenix
20-03-2007, 23:54
After reading through all the fun stuff posted above I had to quote this. You say that all the time on here. And most of your posts show that you don't pvp(or don't do it right).
How so? Just because my opinions are backed by fact instead of popularity, people think they're wrong. Take logic 101.


It wasn't balanced anyway, it is just that the gimmicks weren't thought of yet, and that the general skill level was lower then current.The skill level was LOWER during prophs? You just proved you don't pvp. I'm done arguing with you.


I'm not going to whip out my Epeen. (It would crush you anyway) Grow up, hypocrite. The next time yu choose to participate in an intelligent discussion, please stick to the topic instead of insulting better players.

David Holtzman
21-03-2007, 03:29
The skill level was LOWER during prophs? You just proved you don't pvp. I'm done arguing with you.

Um, he's right. The skill level was far, far lower during prophecies than it is now. Anyone who has played seriously in GvG or HA should know that.

Ace Bear
21-03-2007, 03:59
How so? Just because my opinions are backed by fact instead of popularity, people think they're wrong. Take logic 101.
Ok here is some logic for ya brain:
Stop using insults to cover up your lack of knowledge. EVERY POST I see you make is insulting someone instead of giving even half an explanation of what you originally meant.

Oh and while I am on it, your posts cover what the majority of HA noobs and pve players think NOT what someone who plays the format consistently without many loses thinks.

For instance: My guild doesn't even HA often yet every time we go in there we usually make up a build on the spot and get a decent number of wins behind it. Your fotm fad non-sense is simply put, retarded. Yes alot of people play fotms, but every guild that has even a little sense will own those builds with usually their own home-grown builds.

Oh and just because I'm cool like shardfenix: Take Calculas III 1201 :rolleyes:

Tucks
21-03-2007, 11:29
How so? Just because my opinions are backed by fact instead of popularity, people think they're wrong. Take logic 101.

The skill level was LOWER during prophs? You just proved you don't pvp. I'm done arguing with you.

Grow up, hypocrite. The next time yu choose to participate in an intelligent discussion, please stick to the topic instead of insulting better players.

hahaha, fail.

You have not made one post that hasn't made me laugh at you.

asxtc
21-03-2007, 16:25
I havent laughed so much for ages /cleans coffee off keyboard

The only comments i can make that really add to the debate are:

The "Z" thingy is nice.

and its Calculus not Calculas.

I think that one of the reasons for the mass production of meta builds is Obs mode.
Pll watch what "Forgot my Ghostlybloke" and the other multi-hold guilds are running....copy the skillbar exactly..and jump in playing the build poorly.

Domina Spellbinder
21-03-2007, 18:48
Skill-level is at an alltime high when 8 pally-premades switch a total of 1 elite and 2 skills and can get to and win halls. :shocked:

shardfenix
21-03-2007, 23:04
Um, he's right. The skill level was far, far lower during prophecies than it is now. Anyone who has played seriously in GvG or HA should know that.

It's not the skill level that's higher now, it's the power of the skills. All of the popular builds played today take almost no player skill to win with. If you seriously think players play better now than they did 18 months ago, you need to start playing real builds and stop playing meta.


Skill-level is at an alltime high when 8 pally-premades switch a total of 1 elite and 2 skills and can get to and win halls. :shocked:
Rofl I did that once. Also won a few gvgs with minion factory.

Djinn Effer
22-03-2007, 01:23
Heh... Search my posts before I quit, a bit better fix for the game.

David Holtzman
22-03-2007, 01:48
It's not the skill level that's higher now, it's the power of the skills.

No, it's both. Seriously, go watch EW v QQ game 1 and compare it to the old amazing games like LuM v WM game 1. There is a very noticable skill difference. If you can't see it, then with respect you just don't know how to look. As for "playing real builds" comments, what guild are you in? My guild is in the top ten of the Celestial Tournament, what's yours?

shardfenix
22-03-2007, 02:38
No, it's both. Seriously, go watch EW v QQ game 1 and compare it to the old amazing games like LuM v WM game 1. There is a very noticable skill difference. If you can't see it, then with respect you just don't know how to look. As for "playing real builds" comments, what guild are you in? My guild is in the top ten of the Celestial Tournament, what's yours?

My guild's not in the top 10 of the celestial tournament because I left them and joined a different guild. Being in arguably the best guild around wasn't exciting for me. I've already done it. It's more of a challenge for me to play with less experienced players.

As for you, there are only three, maybe four really good guilds around. If you're not in one of those, I don't care if youre rank 15 and have a gold cape.

Have some players gotton better in the last 2 years and others worse? Of course. I think that overall, player skill has gotton lower because you simply don't need it as much anymore. This game is Build Wars. Skill is only needed when you fight a team using a similar (or identical) build.

Dark Shinobi
22-03-2007, 02:44
Neato! :D

I'll just comment on HA in the early days and nowadays. Back a long time ago when it was ToPK when Guild Wars released not long, people sucked. Many factors contribute to this, it's a new game and takes time to get used to and grasp but some people learn faster than others. Back then a lot of the teams were grab and go, no voice coordination was used and over time people started using it and improved.
Lack of Balthazar faction to unlock skills means you were forced to PvE to get skills, when faction was introduced the rate of gain was peanuts.

Today we can learn from others in observer mode, we have a fast faction rate to get the tools you need unlocked for competitive play, we know to use voice communication, most of all we have much more experience.

David Holtzman
22-03-2007, 08:26
My guild's not in the top 10 of the celestial tournament because I left them and joined a different guild. Being in arguably the best guild around wasn't exciting for me. I've already done it. It's more of a challenge for me to play with less experienced players.

I noticed how you failed to mention which guild. Would you like to try again?


As for you, there are only three, maybe four really good guilds around. If you're not in one of those, I don't care if youre rank 15 and have a gold cape.

Sure thing. Winning doesn't make you good, right? Oh wait, that's the definition.

Miraino Kakera
22-03-2007, 14:52
I'm just curious as to why people still tomb.. I figured you all would have moved on to solely GvG by now. o.O

And would shardfenix happen to be S H A R D?

Buddah
22-03-2007, 18:11
I'm just curious as to why people still tomb.. I figured you all would have moved on to solely GvG by now. o.O


Numbers game. Some don't have a large number of bodies to field 8 players on a regular basis. Falling short of that 6 is easier to reach.

shardfenix
23-03-2007, 05:25
I noticed how you failed to mention which guild. Would you like to try again?Sure. It used to be There Is No Cow Level [cow] but they had some drama and are now known as There Is A Cow Level [cow] and I hope they beat the hell out of the other top guilds. cow is the only top guild deserving of the gold cape this season.
<3 Dev


I'm just curious as to why people still tomb.. I figured you all would have moved on to solely GvG by now. o.O

And would shardfenix happen to be S H A R D?
People still tomb because they're working for those emotes. I guess the r9s who still tomb just arent goog enough to gvg or something. I quit HA after I hit rank 9.

Yes.

David Holtzman
23-03-2007, 06:58
Sure. It used to be There Is No Cow Level [cow] but they had some drama and are now known as There Is A Cow Level [cow] and I hope they beat the hell out of the other top guilds. cow is the only top guild deserving of the gold cape this season.
<3 Dev


You.. you really thought that cow was the best guild around?

B Ephekt
23-03-2007, 08:21
I like cow, and Devine is indeed a cool guy. Cow isn't the best guild out there though.

And didn't cow disband anyway?

David Holtzman
23-03-2007, 08:36
And didn't cow disband anyway?

Like 5 times. They got back together though I think. They've mostly been running around on Kry's Soldiers lately.

Wuzzman
23-03-2007, 23:06
Lol...The problem with HA? Oh, thats simple, not even the HA players can fix HA lol.

Alleji
26-03-2007, 20:08
<3 Shard





Nerf DPS on Searing Flames.

David Holtzman
27-03-2007, 01:09
Lol...The problem with HA? Oh, thats simple, not even the HA players can fix HA lol.

Yeah we could have, but there's so much beauracracy in the way that we had no chance at all.

shardfenix
27-03-2007, 03:06
You.. you really thought that cow was the best guild around?

I define "best" in terms of player skill and versatility. Yes in these ways, cow is one of the best, if not the best. I've played with and against almost all the other top 30 guilds and they all either run trash builds or they suck at real builds. I have a select few favorite guilds and cow just happens to be one of them.

On a side ntoe, QQ you guys need to recruit better monks, i mean... neo and rep protein...are two of the worst players in the game.

Kamahl
30-03-2007, 03:46
say shard werent you the fellow who couldnt outsplit koss?

Buddah
30-03-2007, 04:23
say shard werent you the fellow who couldnt outsplit koss?

:afro: Koss is damn good. :afro:

shardfenix
30-03-2007, 08:47
say shard werent you the fellow who couldnt outsplit koss?
Koss is 1337. Mine has upgraded armor ^^.

I forgot to mention one thing in my OP. Observer mode shouldn't show the skills teams are using. That's how they get stolen.

Tucks
30-03-2007, 11:53
Koss is 1337. Mine has upgraded armor ^^.

I forgot to mention one thing in my OP. Observer mode shouldn't show the skills teams are using. That's how they get stolen.

hahahaahah, imbecile.

Savsuds
30-03-2007, 12:56
I thought it was the skill of the player when using same skill bars....................

Lord Helmos
30-03-2007, 15:48
When Jesus returns he promised to fix HA for us. :sunny:

But seriously if you think HA is broken now, when 8v8 comes back the builds are going to be twice as a broken. (3 BoAs, Fortress Paraspike, Spiritway from hell, Bloodspike, Ultimate Zergway, Rspike....)

And a double fame weekend? Expect to see alot of R3 nooblets in halls after this weekend. I've already seen some high ranking players carrying on this exact same arguement in HA. The problem is the players aren't being listened to. Theres already 1000 great threads about HA fixes online, yet we are forced to settle for subpar quick fixes.

For example, on the other fansite, a high ranking player from iQ suggested fixing Discord by nerfing not the cast time, but the conditional damage the spell deals to a hexed and a conditioned opponent. After days of fuming the community finally agreed on his fix. Then the nerf bat comes and the skilll is completely butched beyond use to a 2sec cast time.

Democracy is ftw. Skill balances are not democratic. GG halls.

Lord Helmos
30-03-2007, 15:57
say shard werent you the fellow who couldnt outsplit koss?

Don't hate Koss. He flashed his R14 Pheonix on me the other day.

asxtc
22-05-2007, 17:59
After reading some of "shardfenix" comments in other debates...and the wonderful participation in this one...

Koss is 1337. Mine has upgraded armor ^^.

I forgot to mention one thing in my OP. Observer mode shouldn't show the skills teams are using. That's how they get stolen.

Ive come to the conclusion...he is flapping in the water..and has a problem seeing the difference between a debate and an argument.

Wuzzman
22-05-2007, 21:02
Not too impressed. First off lets travel down memory lane. Why was ha changed to 6v6? Anet knew what the problem was. 6v6 was an attempt to change the pugging enviroment. It was a nerf to ha, whole sale, like what the US wanted to do to Afganistan after september 11th, nuke the place to hell. To anet, it served as a several wammies in one update, technically parties should be able to form groups faster, most of the fotm/spike builds that alot of HA'ers wanted nerfed to hell disappeared, and for a while HA had no metagame...something alot of people who weren't r3 was looking forward to.

Victory for anet right? Wrong, all of players got really, really pissed and left HA. HA at first didn't have any fotm meta, but that didn't last long, at the peak of 6v6 the metagame for HA guess what? 2 builds. Yep real inventive, new frontier...oh and did I mention how SLOW it was to form a group? Anet tried very hard to please the mass's with 6v6, changing maps, taking out maps, reinventing HoH, and even some builds were nerfed for 6v6 reasons (rest in peace vimway). But with each change international district would lose one more district. Lol, at the peak of 6v6 international district had 2-3 active districts and america 1 of life support. Anet concided gave us back 8v8, we demanded even more of Anet (remove holding) and in the end almost 4 months later HA has a total of 3-5 international districts active at any hour and america has 1 district in crutches.

Anet meant well, had a glimpse of the right idea based on their motive and what they wanted to solve, but they ultimately took a counter intuative stance to fixing HA. See what Anet figured was the problem with HA is 3 things.

People, People, and People.

Doesn't get more simplier then that huh? See many people in this thread (I can tell by your responses) can pick out a build that gota go or a map that shouldn't exist in HA and that would make HA enjoyable to the over 3 million guild wars players. Not to say that the maps aren't a problem in and of themselves but lets take a deep breath and think who fills up HA districts? Guys like Buddah and David who probably have under r1k guilds and tigers? I wish that was the case but the vast majority of Ha is "mesmer can play all builds lfg". Whats the main concern that most HA players have?

LFG, LFG and LFG.

To fix HA their must be a PUGGING enviroment. No pugs = no HA. Its a very simple equation that no one seems to get. Most people on this forum say "get rid of the metatrash" or "get a real build". Do they not understand that if HA doesn't have a popular build like IWAY then most people will NOT play HA. They will join random way, get no were, and won't visit HA ever again. Why is it that most pugs being forumed now a days are r6? How is that good for HA? Why would a person who can't even get into a decent group or make one for that matter in a reasonable time care if you remove holding or kill count? Take out relic running or remove 1 or 3 maps in some grand attempt to change HA?

Has HA past the point of no return were even trying to solve its people problem won't work? Probably, I had a suggestion a long time ago when HA was 8v8 and had a relatively large population (in American district too). But Ha right now doesn't have the large population or people with the will to make unraked groups for my plan to work.

This was my orginal solution to HA.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417543&highlight=Hero+Ascent

CrushusMaximus
23-05-2007, 00:12
Not too impressed. First off lets travel down memory lane. Why was ha changed to 6v6? Anet knew what the problem was. 6v6 was an attempt to change the pugging enviroment. It was a nerf to ha, whole sale, like what the US wanted to do to Afganistan after september 11th, nuke the place to hell. To anet, it served as a several wammies in one update, technically parties should be able to form groups faster, most of the fotm/spike builds that alot of HA'ers wanted nerfed to hell disappeared, and for a while HA had no metagame...something alot of people who weren't r3 was looking forward to.

Victory for anet right? Wrong, all of players got really, really pissed and left HA. HA at first didn't have any fotm meta, but that didn't last long, at the peak of 6v6 the metagame for HA guess what? 2 builds. Yep real inventive, new frontier...oh and did I mention how SLOW it was to form a group? Anet tried very hard to please the mass's with 6v6, changing maps, taking out maps, reinventing HoH, and even some builds were nerfed for 6v6 reasons (rest in peace vimway). But with each change international district would lose one more district. Lol, at the peak of 6v6 international district had 2-3 active districts and america 1 of life support. Anet concided gave us back 8v8, we demanded even more of Anet (remove holding) and in the end almost 4 months later HA has a total of 3-5 international districts active at any hour and america has 1 district in crutches.

Anet meant well, had a glimpse of the right idea based on their motive and what they wanted to solve, but they ultimately took a counter intuative stance to fixing HA. See what Anet figured was the problem with HA is 3 things.

People, People, and People.

Doesn't get more simplier then that huh? See many people in this thread (I can tell by your responses) can pick out a build that gota go or a map that shouldn't exist in HA and that would make HA enjoyable to the over 3 million guild wars players. Not to say that the maps aren't a problem in and of themselves but lets take a deep breath and think who fills up HA districts? Guys like Buddah and David who probably have under r1k guilds and tigers? I wish that was the case but the vast majority of Ha is "mesmer can play all builds lfg". Whats the main concern that most HA players have?

LFG, LFG and LFG.

To fix HA their must be a PUGGING enviroment. No pugs = no HA. Its a very simple equation that no one seems to get. Most people on this forum say "get rid of the metatrash" or "get a real build". Do they not understand that if HA doesn't have a popular build like IWAY then most people will NOT play HA. They will join random way, get no were, and won't visit HA ever again. Why is it that most pugs being forumed now a days are r6? How is that good for HA? Why would a person who can't even get into a decent group or make one for that matter in a reasonable time care if you remove holding or kill count? Take out relic running or remove 1 or 3 maps in some grand attempt to change HA?

Has HA past the point of no return were even trying to solve its people problem won't work? Probably, I had a suggestion a long time ago when HA was 8v8 and had a relatively large population (in American district too). But Ha right now doesn't have the large population or people with the will to make unraked groups for my plan to work.

This was my orginal solution to HA.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417543&highlight=Hero+Ascent

You got it wrong, Anet decided to institute 6v6 over the protests of many players, then they made heroway, then in order to cover their tracks on the mistakes of 6v6 they decided to screw with the objectives and gave us the wonderfully skilled mode that is kill count, all this to create a smokescreen around their inability to balance the game. This backfired, and most of the people who used to play halls raged guild wars.

So instead of screwing with the mechanics and party size, will Anet actually balance the game for once. (and remove kill count, and give us a proper objective for halls, new altars, or old altars.)

shardfenix
23-05-2007, 01:22
Arenanet's problem is that they keep trying to guess what the players want, when the solution is right in front of them. Ask the players what we want. I haven't seen one person on any forum defending kill count, and very few players like alliance battles in HA. Everyone wants a skill balance (except that medium sized demographic of players known as "iway scrubs"), and even PvE players want changes from previous updates, namely soul reaping. Many top guilds stopped playing because of a lack of competition caused by a stale metagame. RA is in shambles.

Wuzzman
24-05-2007, 06:14
You got it wrong, Anet decided to institute 6v6 over the protests of many players, then they made heroway, then in order to cover their tracks on the mistakes of 6v6 they decided to screw with the objectives and gave us the wonderfully skilled mode that is kill count, all this to create a smokescreen around their inability to balance the game. This backfired, and most of the people who used to play halls raged guild wars.

So instead of screwing with the mechanics and party size, will Anet actually balance the game for once. (and remove kill count, and give us a proper objective for halls, new altars, or old altars.)

hmm...not really. At most the change to 6v6 was made after anet noticed a surge in HA participation during their test run of it, coincidentally it was a double fame weekend..., with that said, Anet's decision came from postitive reviews from people who didn't Ha, and those that did but didn't happen to be the r++ circles. A lot of vocal people pointed to builds like Iway and spiking as the problem with HA and with 6v6 ending that Anet thought it did the right thing without dropping an atom bomb on guild wars. People then wanted to balance Ha by removing the ability for any build to spike. That would make Anet nerf offense of every class in such a way...(glad anet didn't listen to these people completely...)

Anway heroway was a over sight by anet. It wasn't planned, they never thought that people would chose AI over humans in pvp, or that alot of people would complain about getting owned by the AI. Lol, personally I had no problem with heroway, way better then the crap we have now :grin:. I also doubt alot of people "raged" guild wars, raged the HA yes but rage guild wars all together no. HA has been declining in participation for a year. Anet has tried its hardest to curb that. 6v6 was the last ditch attempt to renew HA without balanceing the game for HA. If you did balance the game for HA you would find alot of people actually quiting guilds wars and gvg would probably be screwed over beyond playability.

Kill count was an attempt to further balance 6v6, but with even more people becoming less interested in HA, anet was made to take a system that was made for 6v6 and place into the 8v8 enviorment. Unintentional result is the crap we have now.

Wuzzman
24-05-2007, 06:19
Arenanet's problem is that they keep trying to guess what the players want, when the solution is right in front of them. Ask the players what we want. I haven't seen one person on any forum defending kill count, and very few players like alliance battles in HA. Everyone wants a skill balance (except that medium sized demographic of players known as "iway scrubs"), and even PvE players want changes from previous updates, namely soul reaping. Many top guilds stopped playing because of a lack of competition caused by a stale metagame. RA is in shambles.

At this point asking the players what they want is the dumbest thing I ever heard. This is what the players wanted.

6v6
kill count
whole sale nerfing of everything that does damage

several months later the community decided all those things are crappy. This is what they really want.

whole sale nerfing of everything that prevents damage
holding???
pick a number for the party size of a HA group. International district has 3 districts. Not 3 active districts but 3 total districts regardless of hour.

Anet must some day learn...listening to players every wish list will eventually destroy your game.

shardfenix
25-05-2007, 06:29
At this point asking the players what they want is the dumbest thing I ever heard. This is what the players wanted.

6v6
kill count
whole sale nerfing of everything that does damage

several months later the community decided all those things are crappy. This is what they really want.

whole sale nerfing of everything that prevents damage
holding???
pick a number for the party size of a HA group. International district has 3 districts. Not 3 active districts but 3 total districts regardless of hour.

Anet must some day learn...listening to players every wish list will eventually destroy your game.
You're kidding me right? The only people who liked 6v6 are the scrubs who couldn't win at 8v8, and tyhey only won at 6v6 because all the good players left. Nerfing = good, especially with all these broken skills. Idk what Anet's problem with skill balancing is.

"Hey guys let's nerf the overpowered skills, then let's take other skills and break them so we create a new 2-build metagame of lameness." Yeah that's what players want: One viable build. I'm sick of all the **** anet's been throwing around their otherwise-decent game. The engine is amazing, probably the best MMO engine ever made, but it's unfortunately overshadowed by the fact that Anet can't keep the game fun.

"DOUBLE XP FROM SCROLLS WEEKEND ZOMG"
like people use scrolls anyway.

"ZOMG DOUBLE EXPERIENCE FOR ELITE SKILL CAPTURES"
Yeah if I need anything on my level 20 character, it's more experience points.

"DOUBLE CHAMP POINTS THIS WEEKEND!!!!"
Yeah too bad only about 20 guilds qualify for that.

"DOUBLE FAME THIS WEEKEND"
Yeah cause people should get double rewards for cheating.

"ZOMG WTF HAX KEEPING LOCKPICKS GETS YOU 1% CLOSER TO YOUR NEXT LUCKY TITLE"
Yeah ok thanks I got 2000 points on that weekend, but unfortunately that's still 0% additional chance to keep my lockpicks.

"GET READY FOR THIS ONE GUYS...ITS WHAT YOUVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR - ANOTHER DOUBLE SCROLL XP WEEKEND!!!!"
WOW feedback from the first scroll weekend must have been awesome.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Anet is trying to make their game suck.

In response to your previous topic, who cares if scrubs leave HA because metagimmickway garbage gets nerfed? I used to pvp for fun...until it became unfun. Nobody is forcing you to do something you don't like. Pugging would also be faster if people used the party search, one of the best features ever added to the game, which unfortunately gets used by 6 people per day. All you gotta do is press P, look for a group near your rank or skill level, and invite. No more up-arrowing in id1.

asxtc
25-05-2007, 19:11
Dispite lambasting Shardfenix in the past on his HA views ....he does have a point (or 2) here:

The events now appear to be used to fill that space on the right hand side of the login screen.


You forgot the 50% chance of a Dye drop... :)

allinuff
03-06-2007, 20:23
I notice that Shard, you seem to be stucked in 2005.

Game has change. It is inevitable. Move on. If you do not, enjoyment level will drop. Plain and simple. This after seeing a lot of rant threads by yourself. This is not meant as an insult, just some insight on my part, or plain advise if you can stomach it.

Alleji
05-06-2007, 09:04
I notice that Shard, you seem to be stucked in 2005.

Game has change. It is inevitable. Move on. If you do not, enjoyment level will drop. Plain and simple. This after seeing a lot of rant threads by yourself. This is not meant as an insult, just some insight on my part, or plain advise if you can stomach it.That's because GW got much worse since 2005?

The only reason Shard still plays it is because he loves complaining about it :P

shardfenix
06-06-2007, 06:49
The only reason Shard still plays it is because he loves complaining about it :P
No alleji, I play because of the colorful personalities I've made friends with.


Game has change. It is inevitable. Move on.Please try reading one word of my (or anybody's) post before replying. Thanks. Now go iway.

allinuff
12-06-2007, 19:07
Please try reading one word of my (or anybody's) post before replying. Thanks. Now go iway.

Too bad you choose to see it as an insult. Your closed mind (and worse manners) aren't really my lost.

The way I see it, if I do not enjoy something anymore because it has revolved, I move on, as opposed to complaining and hoping things will go back to the way they were.

BTW, who's to say the game (PVP wise anyway) is less enjoyable than it was during summer '05? You do I know. Everyone? Doubt it.

Katy K
14-06-2007, 03:00
The old HA will be available with GWEN comes out. Sadly you'll need to purchase GWEN to access this new arena.

shardfenix
14-06-2007, 09:05
Too bad you choose to see it as an insult. Your closed mind (and worse manners) aren't really my lost.

The way I see it, if I do not enjoy something anymore because it has revolved, I move on, as opposed to complaining and hoping things will go back to the way they were.

BTW, who's to say the game (PVP wise anyway) is less enjoyable than it was during summer '05? You do I know. Everyone? Doubt it.I didn't see it as an insult. . .

I have moved on, CSS and KH have kept me busy this summer. I complain because I hate to see a good game go to hell because of incompetent skill balancers. I used to like pvp because it was competitive. Now it's "cheat or lose" and that isn't fun.

Again, I like it less now because it's not competitive anymore. If you like playing rock, paper, scissors then GW pvp is the game for you. It's all about play style.


The old HA will be available with GWEN comes out. Sadly you'll need to purchase GWEN to access this new arena.
If you can prove it, fine. I doubt they're gonna make a new pvp arena type for a pve exclusive campaign.

Katy K
14-06-2007, 22:22
It was a joke.

Kamahl
18-06-2007, 19:15
ill never get these threads crying on forums wont bring any changes to this game especially crying on a forum that got shuned by galie
shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn the unbelivers!!!!!!!!!!!!

shardfenix
19-06-2007, 01:28
ill never get these threads crying on forums wont bring any changes to this game especially crying on a forum that got shuned by galie
shunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn the unbelivers!!!!!!!!!!!!
GWonline is one of the two forums that Gaile posts on often. If idiots like you didn't have one track minds and didn't have horrendous spelling, maybe she might read the pvp section more often. Also, I did ot post this for Gaile. Gaile is a messenger, she doesn't actually do anything to the game. I posted this for the people who have been "looking at heroes ascent" since they changed all the maps.

People who say other people are crying are just compensating for their inability to participate in an adult conversation. Grow up. Post about the topic, not about how childish you are.

exjeh
19-06-2007, 12:47
I agree with the relic run part in the first article , Stopping the runner should be about best boddy blocking , not the most amounts of snares.

You realy need teamwork for body blocking efficient without snares , so good teams will probably win in sted of teams more capable of running. In that way Speed buffs for relic runners should be removed so it doesn't become a running race dodging evry one. Relic runner should go 10% slower or something though.

thx for reading my opignon

shardfenix
20-06-2007, 12:19
I agree with the relic run part in the first article , Stopping the runner should be about best boddy blocking , not the most amounts of snares.

You realy need teamwork for body blocking efficient without snares , so good teams will probably win in sted of teams more capable of running. In that way Speed buffs for relic runners should be removed so it doesn't become a running race dodging evry one. Relic runner should go 10% slower or something though.

thx for reading my opignon
Although bodyblocking is a sure way to completely stop a runner's movement, it doesn't work in HA. Every other team has 1 or 2 SH eles (some have 6 SF eles or 8 rits with spirit rift/ancestors rage), which will completely WTFdemolish any bodyblock you have going.

Water snares are used because hex removals aren't fast enough. You need 3 veils on your team to keep one water hex off a single target permanently.

Bottom line: water hexes recharge too quickly and are too stackable.