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Ace Bear
04-05-2007, 22:31
I think I will just number these questions to make it easier to read/answer to.

1. In a build of 2 War, 1 R, 1 Me, 2 Ele, 2 Monk what would the Burning Arrow Ranger's bow be? I generally just use a simple Sundering Bow but would a +33% to poison be better? Also I put a health mod onto that bow with a a +15% above 50, are their better options? The reason I ask this is because dps of bows aren't really that great and I kind of have the feeling the Sundering and maybe even the +15%^50 is wasted.

I am thinking of using +5 energy bow with a +33% poison and +30 hp.

2. Majors, superiors, and minors. I understand how they work, just not always clear on when to use them. For instance, I know that backline monks should always have minors. Midline casters should generally go minors as well right? But higher armor can get away with Majors and maybe even a Superior.

My examples: For Rangers I go energy armor with Minors. For Dervs I also go energy armor with Minors(occasionally a Major because Derv armor does give health). For Wars I go health armor with Majors and sometimes even Superiors.

3. Deny, smite, Holy Veil, convert, purge, expel, divert hexes. I know(more or less) the benefits of each and the drawbacks of each. But what do you people generally bring in that case? I usually put Deny on the infuse/LoD and holy Veil on the RC monk with either a purge on a midline caster(if it is an Ele, then Convert) or convert on the runner.

4. Hammers, this always confuses me. Zealous is bad, but does that also make Vamp bad? And would Sundering be better? I usually stick with Sundering just for all around damage.

If anyone else has questions post them here do that maybe someone will answer them. Thanks in advance.

B Ephekt
04-05-2007, 22:51
1) Poisonous and 15^50. Burning Arrow and Screaming Shot (if you use the latter) do some nice damage, you shouldn't give that up. Sundering is generally trash unless you're focusing purely on spike, and even then Vamp usually out does it.

2) Everyone wears minors. The extra 1-2 attribute points is not worth the health trade off when considering spikes, DP and VoD. Sups were only playable in the past due to armor swapping.

3) I prefer Veils on the monks. Deny is a fine skill, but managing Veil is not so hard that it would distract an infuser.

For midline hex removal Convert on eles or necros, Shatter Hex or Expel on mesmers or purge on a paragon, ranger or caster are all viable options.

4) Vamp is fine for hammer. Hammers are also one of the few cases that make Sundering worth it imo, for the huge triggers. I generally run with vamp, sundering and elemental for hammer - vamp for pressuring, sundering for unloading your chain and ele for warriors. Sundering is worthless on sword and axe, however, unless you're running a pure spike.


I'm sure some people will disagree with me on the hammer thing though.

Nazpharoz
04-05-2007, 23:47
I agree with the sundering on the hammer. But still would say that sundering would trash at swords, axes, daggers. even if you are running a spike build.

And no more to add then the rest, tho. they sum it up very well.
However wants to add 1 point, always have at start over 550hp. It's just the savity for yourself to be harder to spike down.

David Holtzman
05-05-2007, 03:29
I played with vamp hammer a long time, I've found far better use from my sundering. I usuall run with a Sundering, an Elemental, a shieldset with +hp and armor weapons, and a wand/spear. When I run with enraging or TTL or any of those, I drop the wand for a furious hammer. I can always go into my inventory to get it when necessary.

Bloody Samuel
05-05-2007, 13:18
I think I will just number these questions to make it easier to read/answer to.

1. In a build of 2 War, 1 R, 1 Me, 2 Ele, 2 Monk what would the Burning Arrow Ranger's bow be? I generally just use a simple Sundering Bow but would a +33% to poison be better? Also I put a health mod onto that bow with a a +15% above 50, are their better options? The reason I ask this is because dps of bows aren't really that great and I kind of have the feeling the Sundering and maybe even the +15%^50 is wasted.

I am thinking of using +5 energy bow with a +33% poison and +30 hp.

2. Majors, superiors, and minors. I understand how they work, just not always clear on when to use them. For instance, I know that backline monks should always have minors. Midline casters should generally go minors as well right? But higher armor can get away with Majors and maybe even a Superior.

My examples: For Rangers I go energy armor with Minors. For Dervs I also go energy armor with Minors(occasionally a Major because Derv armor does give health). For Wars I go health armor with Majors and sometimes even Superiors.

3. Deny, smite, Holy Veil, convert, purge, expel, divert hexes. I know(more or less) the benefits of each and the drawbacks of each. But what do you people generally bring in that case? I usually put Deny on the infuse/LoD and holy Veil on the RC monk with either a purge on a midline caster(if it is an Ele, then Convert) or convert on the runner.

4. Hammers, this always confuses me. Zealous is bad, but does that also make Vamp bad? And would Sundering be better? I usually stick with Sundering just for all around damage.

If anyone else has questions post them here do that maybe someone will answer them. Thanks in advance.

1. Use more than one bow. Posionous is a great mod for a ranger. Carry more than one type as well. One flatbow is nice for some pesky stationary targets.

2. I recomend minors on everyone in GvG. I also recomend as much health as possible on everyone because shields can be used to increase ones armour against the threat you currently face - yes that means carrying 7 or so shields.

3. That is down to the whole build. I like veil on one of the monks and purge signet on the other. Hex breaker is also nice on the infuser.

4. I like furious on hammer because of the chance that you might contribute a kd in the next spike. Vamp does more damage, and i would spike with vamp up. You are right about zealous tho. However if a lot of blocking/missing go furious

Ace Bear
05-05-2007, 18:08
Thanks peoples. Woot on the general consensus too heh. If yal don't mind I have more questions.

5. I don't play monk exclusively but I have been known to do it. Mainly just to help me learn their skills so that when I am playing against a monk I know when they are going to do this and that. However I keep seeing monks with Swords(and shields too) in GvGs and Obvserver mode. I know swords without the attribute req are jack for dps and I also thought shields were the same(although gingerbread shields and such give you full armor, I know that), so why give themselves +3-5 extra armor for seemingly alot less energy?

Is this just a fad or are their legit reasons to do this?

If I could possibly think of the rest right now I would ask them but since I can't I will just say thanks in advance and end this post.

Productivity
05-05-2007, 19:00
Monk (and all caster for that matter) weapon sets are something you should understand why you are on for every movement/cast. You'll find that as you watch better players, they are constantly swapping to different sets to meet their requirements.

First up, the basics. Below-req shields give you +8 armour. They also will have +30 health and a misc mod (+10 vs. fire/earth/water/air/blunt/piercing/slashing, reduce cripple/daze, -2 enchanted, -5/20%) based on what opposition you're facing. For me, -2 enchanted is my standard, -5/20% is for when running NR/Tranq, the +10s/reduce mods are for when I've worked out what I am actually facing.

Martial weapons (swords, spears and axes) can either be 10% recharge or +5e, with the latter being more common. They have an advantage over wands in that they can have either an enchant mod or a health mod, both desirable for a caster. Spears are strictly better than swords or axes, however the advantage is minimal, spearing trappers and dazed targets and breaking RoFs for 2 is all I can really think of. Swords can be used with ripostes however. Axes have no advantages.

What I run and why. This is on a monk.

Set 1: Frozen Fan (9 curses req, -5e, +5armour, + 30 health), Spear (-5e, +30 health). This set is for when you are getting energy denied. It gives a -7 difference on your energy, reducing your maximum or apparent energy to be denied. During heavy e-denial I hold on this one at all times except when casting, swapping to a different set and opening up the energy as needed.

Set 2: Spear (+5e, +30health), Shield (see above for mods). This is my main set. It's my highest armour set and has a decent amount of energy on it to burst. I use it when casting general spells that don't need an enchant mod to get value. Swapping from set1->set2 gives me a +12 energy swing. Spend as much time as possible except under extreme conditions in this as it has the highest armour level and highest max health of all my sets. It's easy damage mitigation.

Set 3: Spear (+5e, 20% enchant), Focus (+5armour^50, +30 health). This is my enchanting set for the most. It's got a further +12 energy swing from set 2 and it has the crucial enchant mod. The swing means when aegis recharges and you're on set2, moving to three will almost allways open up enough energy to cast straight away. Guardian, Shield of A., Shielding Hands, Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond etc. all get casted on this set. Also if I'm low on Set2 energy and I need to burst cast I'll swap into this set as it has a higher max. I only sit in this set for the minimal time possible however, as it's got lower armour (and variable) and a lower max health.

Set4: Wand (10% recharge all, +15/-1 regen), Focus (+15/-1 regen, +30 health). Emergency set. This is a really bad set to use, but sometimes the extra +25e that this opens up will win you a game/cause an enemy party wipe. Knowing when to swap into this set and when not to is very difficult, because once you go there, it's extremely hard to dig yourself out. However, there will be times when you operating for another 15s out of this set will allow your warriors to break a team. Spend utterly the minimum time in this set and only when Set3 is exhausted. Sit in set2, swap to set4 to cast then swap back striaght away. Every second you are in this set you lose 2/3 of a point of energy in lost regen.

Basically, what you have to keep in mind is while monks spend most of their time with shields on, they have focuses in their setup and can burst out when need be. However for general play, a shield performs better than a focus will and it's not hard to swap into the focus when you need it.

It is also best to die on your lowest-max energy set, as the res calcualtion for energy works on that set. Thus if set1 gives me 20 energy, I get resed with 25% and come up with 5, swap straight to set2 and have 17 energy. If I died on 2, with 32 max energy, I come up with 8 energy@set2.

cranialexodus
05-05-2007, 19:37
I generally take elemental, vamp and furious, and a 15/-5 furious spear with a shield (switch to this set when spiked and die on it) and will swap the elemental for a sundering hammer or flatbow at times. I run majors on orders often. Generally, I put deny on anything with signet of devotion and veil on anything else. Poisonous recurve for general purpose, vamp flatbow for npcs.

David Holtzman
06-05-2007, 04:27
Again, I would seriously recommend against using a vamp hammer as your standard. In almost no situation that I can think of is vamp the way to go (unless you somehow manage to trap an unprotted target with no evasion stances and you're in an IAS). You generally do more damage to yourself than the enemy, and that's just silly. Sure, you get a very slightly increased DPS, but who cares? Ensign said it best: DPS doesn't kill people, big crits do. On a hammer you won't be pressuring someone out very often at all. Generally you'll get your kills when a Bulls follows into a sundering crushing followed by your sundering heavy hitter. It won't happen very often, but generally kills don't. Playing for the time when the dice rolls your way is smarter than voiding the dice rolls at all.

Ace Bear
06-05-2007, 18:51
Wow, thanks product and of course everyone else.

David Holtzman
07-05-2007, 07:40
Wow, thanks product and of course everyone else.

If you have any more questions just come on back. We don't bite as hard as some people say we do.

Ace Bear
07-05-2007, 22:59
If you have any more questions just come on back. We don't bite as hard as some people say we do.
Its not the bite that worries me, its the rabies. :wink:

6. I know the merits of a Melandru Dervish(I think). But if combined with a Smiter(AoE or the Signet of Removal Smiter is fine) couldn't the Avatar of Balthazar be just as or more effective? My reasoning is with constant condition removal Wearing Strike becomes available, many enchantments allows crippling sweep to become one helluva snare, and the added speed boost/armor gives the Derv both survivability and plenty of movement advantages. Hell you could even use it for running flags.

David Holtzman
08-05-2007, 03:45
If you want your derv to run flags, all you need is to toss Pious Haste on there. It's the best runskill in the game, bar none. Balth runs out, but Pious never does. Balth v Mel, you're definitely wanting to go mel. Not taking DW is way better than a measely 40AL, and condiremoval can never keep up with the weakness/blind spam that invariably happens on a dervish. Of course, you may want to try it out and see for yourself. You'll likely better understand the differences between the two forms- and why one is played and one isn't- if you take it into battle and see what happens.

halfthought
08-05-2007, 23:49
Personally, I would recommend running major runes on NON GANK warriors. I've always ran majors on any frontline warriors, that usually don't split, especially dragon slashers and crip slashers. There usually not priority targets for spiking, and as a result, I find its ok to sub a bit on there HP. Sup are still suicide though. And personally, I feel that sundering is crap on ALL weapons...except maybe scythes.

B Ephekt
09-05-2007, 00:20
Why would you run a major on a sword warrior, much less a Crip Slash of all things? None of the attack skills on a Crip Slash do +damage, a major only gets you an additional 1s on the conditions and the extra 1-2% chance to crit is pretty useless on a sword warrior.

I just don't get how a negligible increase in damage is worth 35hp.

I could maybe understand the rational behind running majors on a hammer or axe, since the crits are actually something to worry about. Not on a sword though.

Another thing to consider is that warriors who are pressuring will become spike targets. If you can get DP on a warrior and control morale it makes things a lot easier, since the warriors have trouble extending. DPed warriors go down ridiculously fast at VoD as well.

halfthought
09-05-2007, 00:53
Why would you run a major on a sword warrior, much less a Crip Slash of all things? None of the attack skills on a Crip Slash do +damage, a major only gets you an additional 1s on the conditions and the extra 1-2% chance to crit is pretty useless on a sword warrior.

I just don't get how a negligible increase in damage is worth 35hp.

I could maybe understand the rational behind running majors on a hammer or axe, since the crits are actually something to worry about. Not on a sword though.

Another thing to consider is that warriors who are pressuring will become spike targets. If you can get DP on a warrior and control morale it makes things a lot easier, since the warriors have trouble extending. DPed warriors go down ridiculously fast at VoD as well.

The reason why is primarily because there the least likely to be spiked, and along with axe warriors, have the highest armor. Yes I am aware that the far majority of the spike comes from armor ignoring damage, but a 20% portion comes from things that are reduced by armor. This makes them the least vulnerable to spikes, and I find it safe to run majors on, if I'm trying to squeeze a bit more damage.

I don't run it on hammer wars, because I typically don't use hammer wars for spiking, but for linebacking. I find that there FAR more likely to be spikes, and has less armor to deal with it.

shardfenix
09-05-2007, 04:38
1. What would the Burning Arrow Ranger's bow be?either +5 energy or 15^50, vampyric, and either +health or +armor. The 20+ seconds of poison will most likely be removed before its full duration, so a poisonous string would be useless 99% of the time.


2. Majors, superiors, and minors. I understand how they work, just not always clear on when to use them. For instance, I know that backline monks should always have minors. Midline casters should generally go minors as well right? But higher armor can get away with Majors and maybe even a Superior.Sups for spiking and, if your team is comfortable with it, on a frontliner. Monks should always use minors in competitive play. Midliners can go whatever theyre comfortable with. Health armor and +armor armor is generally what should be used.


3. Deny, smite, Holy Veil, convert, purge, expel, divert hexes. I know(more or less) the benefits of each and the drawbacks of each. But what do you people generally bring in that case? I usually put Deny on the infuse/LoD and holy Veil on the RC monk with either a purge on a midline caster(if it is an Ele, then Convert) or convert on the runner.Again, it's a matter of preference. Some monks like deny+divine spirit, some like veil.


4. Hammers, this always confuses me. Zealous is bad, but does that also make Vamp bad? And would Sundering be better? I usually stick with Sundering just for all around damage.Hammer vamp mods being 5/-1 instead of 3/-1 make up for the slower attack speed. And...

Vampyric > Sundering on EVERY weapon type.

Disclaimer: If you disagree with the above fact, do not reply to this post. Instead, call nature and ask how to do math.

People who use sundering either don't know any better, or they are idiots.


I'd also like to share how damage works with your weapon attribute.

Every point in your weapon attribute effectively decreases your target's armor by 5 (up to 12 points). Every attribute point above 12 effectively decreases your target's armor by 2.

In addition, each attribute point in a weapon mastery increases the chance to land a critical by 7/8%, or 0.875%, in addition to the default 9% to critical. every attribute level except 7 and 15 are the break points for chance to critical.

David Holtzman
09-05-2007, 08:20
b][i][u]Vampyric > Sundering on EVERY weapon type.

This is not correct. If you are looking for pure DPS, then sure. But as any experienced PvPer knows, DPS doesn't kill anyone. Every good hammer warrior I know runs sundering and for good reason. The same is true of scythes, and to an extent depends on build for axes.

shardfenix
09-05-2007, 09:59
This is not correct. If you are looking for pure DPS, then sure. But as any experienced PvPer knows, DPS doesn't kill anyone. Every good hammer warrior I know runs sundering and for good reason. The same is true of scythes, and to an extent depends on build for axes.wow. I wish I could tell you how wrong you are...oh wait, I can!

to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll list the average damage over 5 hits for each weapon when that weapon criticals. These weapons have standard +35% damage and are attribute level 12.

Sundering Axe: 40.6
Vamp Axe: 41

Sundering Sword: 32
Vamp Sword: 33

Sundering Hammer: 51.2
Vamp Hammer: 53

Sundering Scythe: 59.8
Vamp Scythe: 61

Sundering Hornbow: 46.8
Vamp Hornbow: 49

Sundering Daggers (26% chance to double strike): 36.036
Vamp Daggers: 37.8

As you can see, even when I twisted the conditions in favor of sundering, it still doesn't meet vamp's damage on any weapon. Wanna see the numbers when it's vs a 60 armor target and criticals are normal? The following numbers represent the limits of average damage as number of hits reaches infinity.

Sundering Axe: 30.508
Vamp Axe: 32.08

Sundering Sword: 29.772
Vamp Sword: 31.42

Sundering Hammer: 44.956
Vamp Hammer: 47.89

Sundering Scythe: 44.758
Vamp Scythe: 47.74

Sundering Hornbow: 39.986
Vamp Hornbow: 43.32

Sundering Daggers (26% chance to double strike): 29.932
Vamp Daggers: 30.4

Yup, it's just as I had assumed. Sundering also sucks under normal circumstances.

B Ephekt
09-05-2007, 17:52
either +5 energy or 15^50, vampyric, and either +health or +armor. The 20+ seconds of poison will most likely be removed before its full duration, so a poisonous string would be useless 99% of the time.I can agree with +5 energy maybe, but not the vamp. The ranger switches targets far too much to contribute anything with 5 life stealing here and there. Poisonous is pretty nice once the team become pressures as well.


DPS on a hammer warrior doesn't kill, big triggers on their chains do. Getting near 200 damage Crushings, Mightys or Prot Strikes is more useful than getting a slightly higher DPS out of the guy.

Wuzzman
09-05-2007, 17:56
the only reason why warriors with "experience" don't use vamperic is out of fear. Warriors are often hex'ed with things like faitheartness, and having a vamperic weapon makes what would make a -3 degen into a -4. They are usually the first to get hit with a condition like poison, or bleeding from a trap. Since they are the usual target of passive defense that causes degen they prefer not to get killed over an extra 5 damage.

Reverse Vision
09-05-2007, 19:13
Interesting :)

More vampiric vs sundering IF there's anything thats not been said please.

B Ephekt
09-05-2007, 19:34
the only reason why warriors with "experience" don't use vamperic is out of fear. Warriors are often hex'ed with things like faitheartness, and having a vamperic weapon makes what would make a -3 degen into a -4. They are usually the first to get hit with a condition like poison, or bleeding from a trap. Since they are the usual target of passive defense that causes degen they prefer not to get killed over an extra 5 damage.
You're just being silly. You can switch out of your vamp set when you're hexed or blind. People run sundering on hammers because it makes sense.

shardfenix
09-05-2007, 22:09
DPS on a hammer warrior doesn't kill, big triggers on their chains do. Getting near 200 damage Crushings, Mightys or Prot Strikes is more useful than getting a slightly higher DPS out of the guy.
Now I see where you guys are confused. Maybe this will help you out.

Sundering does NOT affect bonus damage (a +30 power attack when sundering is still a +30 power attack. Only the base weapon damage goes up).
Sundering does NOT reduce bonus armor (a paragon with a bajillion shouts will only lose 20% of 80, not 20% of whatever their armor really is.)
Sundering does NOT reduce armor given to you by your armor (sentinels armor sunders for 20% of 80, not 20% of 100).
Yes, if all of your hits are always criticals, sundering is definitely better than vamp. So gogo assassins with hammer sundering mods maybe. Not warriors. I'd rather have a good chance to do 400 damage than a bad chance to do 450.

If you want more numbers on {insert mod here} I'd be glad to post them, or you can get my damage calculator in the tools forum (i think its still there).

David Holtzman
09-05-2007, 22:16
wow. I wish I could tell you how wrong you are...oh wait, I can!

wow. I wish I could tell you how dumb you look when you totally misread someone...oh wait, I can!

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you at least tried to read my post. You know, the one where I said that vamp is better than sundering for DPS? The exact line was, "If you are looking for pure DPS, then sure." But, and here is my point, I'm not looking for DPS. I'm looking for lucky bursts of high damage, which is what sundering gives me and vamp doesn't. I've gotten plenty of lucky kills when a sundering bulls goes into a sunder crit crushing, but that luck is simply non-existant for vamp. So, again, if you want to do DPS go vamp, if you want to play your cards for lucky kills go sundering. I know which I have had more success with.

shardfenix
09-05-2007, 23:15
wow. I wish I could tell you how dumb you look when you totally misread someone...oh wait, I can!

...I'm looking for lucky bursts of high damage, which is what sundering gives me and vamp doesn't. I've gotten plenty of lucky kills when a sundering bulls goes into a sunder crit crushing


Sundering does NOT affect bonus damage (a +30 power attack when sundering is still a +30 power attack. Only the base weapon damage goes up).

I'll assume you tried to read MY post. Sundering does not, as I just said, affect bonus damage. So if you want the extra 13 damage once every 5 hits instead of the extra 25 over every 5 hits, your loss. Even if you sunder your crit crushing, my vamp made up for the damage with the previous hit.

And for fun, 100% critical hits, 16 attribute, 80 armor targets, sundering always hits. Sunder vs vamp.


Sundering
Vamp

Sword: 46.0
Sword: 38.0

Axe: 59.0
Axe: 47.0

Hammer: 74.0
Hammer: 59.0

Dagger: 35.0
Dagger: 30.0

Scythe: 86.0
Scythe: 68.0

Spear: 57.0
Spear: 46.0

Hornbow: 52.6
Hornbow: 43.0

Other Bow: 59.0
Other Bow: 47.0

About why hornbow is low: I accidently put -10% alpen instead of +10%, so ignore it until I fix it later.

hmmm...the left right thing didnt look as nice as i planned :/ sorry.

B Ephekt
09-05-2007, 23:41
Sundering does NOT affect bonus damage (a +30 power attack when sundering is still a +30 power attack. Only the base weapon damage goes up).You're thinking of armor penetration from Strength, which doesn't trigger on attack skills. Sundering does trigger on attack skills; it increases the base damage before the additional damage is applied. Sundering does not 'stack' with Power Attack because the skill does not have inherent armor penetration. Sundering triggers will, however, stack with AP from skills like Judges Insight or Penetrating Blow, and the inherent AP on hornbows.

Try this: Roll a warrior with 14 hammer 13 strength and go Wild Blow the dummies at Great Temple. Wild Blow hits for 84 normally, and 103 when sundering triggers. Now try the same thing with Power Attack. Normal hits average around 65, crits around 90, sundering triggers are around 120.


Sundering does NOT reduce armor given to you by your armor (sentinels armor sunders for 20% of 80, not 20% of 100).This is irrelevant for most purposes. Sentinels gives +20 vs. elemental damage, so physical damage would not be effected. In all other cases elemental weapons are generally used against warriors in pvp, so again nothing is affected.

David Holtzman
10-05-2007, 02:39
I'll assume you tried to read MY post. Sundering does not, as I just said, affect bonus damage. So if you want the extra 13 damage once every 5 hits instead of the extra 25 over every 5 hits, your loss. Even if you sunder your crit crushing, my vamp made up for the damage with the previous hit.

You don't understand. I do not want the 13dmg every 5 hits, I want the much smaller chance of 13dmg every hit in a chain. Because getting two or three triggers on sundering in a row on crits is enough to kill someone, something that vamp won't ever do. The actual DPS numbers favor vamp, although the output is fairly negligible between either. If you play for DPS, go vamp. If you want to play your cards for more kills, go sundering.

Bloody Samuel
10-05-2007, 14:56
You don't understand. I do not want the 13dmg every 5 hits, I want the much smaller chance of 13dmg every hit in a chain. Because getting two or three triggers on sundering in a row on crits is enough to kill someone, something that vamp won't ever do. The actual DPS numbers favor vamp, although the output is fairly negligible between either. If you play for DPS, go vamp. If you want to play your cards for more kills, go sundering.


In the current metagame with lots of miss/block its not worth running vamp because you are just putting pressure on your own monks.

IMO furious is probably best because you are desperate to charge your adren so you can actually kill something.

Otherwise David is right, Sundering does eneogh damage now when it triggers and it does trigger often eneogh too that you do actually want it.

Joe

EcHoMaN
10-05-2007, 16:12
Meh relatively weak arguments. If you are getting kills because of sundering on hammers then there is an explanation. Rarely do I see targets dropping from one warrior during a gvg unless the freaken monks are;
out of energy
pressured
target is extended
diversion+list goes on
that in this case a vamp would still get the kill given the above.

EcHoMaN
10-05-2007, 16:36
You're thinking of armor penetration from Strength, which doesn't trigger on attack skills. Sundering does trigger on attack skills; it increases the base damage before the additional damage is applied. Sundering does not 'stack' with Power Attack because the skill does not have inherent armor penetration. Sundering triggers will, however, stack with AP from skills like Judges Insight or Penetrating Blow, and the inherent AP on hornbows.

Try this: Roll a warrior with 14 hammer 13 strength and go Wild Blow the dummies at Great Temple. Wild Blow hits for 84 normally, and 103 when sundering triggers. Now try the same thing with Power Attack. Normal hits average around 65, crits around 90, sundering triggers are around 120.

This is irrelevant for most purposes. Sentinels gives +20 vs. elemental damage, so physical damage would not be effected. In all other cases elemental weapons are generally used against warriors in pvp, so again nothing is affected.
sry but ive crited with 13 stren/14 hammer using power attack for 120(no sundering mod), and from what I know strength actually only triggers on attacks skills.

B Ephekt
10-05-2007, 18:10
Strength does not stack with AP from skills.
The armor penetration that Strength provides is base armor penetration, not additional penetration. It will therefore only stack with effects that add additional armor penetration, not skills such as Penetrating Blow.

Ace Bear
10-05-2007, 18:58
Hmm, hey David I thought you said yal don't bite? :laughing:

Seriously though from my limited experience with GvG(about 100 games under my belt, all with no or limited experienced guilds) I just don't like Vamp on the Hammer or Scythe. You basically have to keep Aegis, Blind, and almost all form of hexes off your Frontline for a large amount of the game just to make sure Vamp doesn't end up taking more life off the Warrior then his targets.

And sure you can just switch out...but what is the point of having the Vamp if you have to stay switched out?

Shard proved it himself, Sundering doesn't have that much less dps while still having no drawback. Furious seems a smart idea to have on hand just incase as well.

EcHoMaN
10-05-2007, 19:13
Seriously though from my limited experience with GvG(about 100 games under my belt, all with no or limited experienced guilds) I just don't like Vamp on the Hammer or Scythe. You basically have to keep Aegis, Blind, and almost all form of hexes off your Frontline for a large amount of the game just to make sure Vamp doesn't end up taking more life off the Warrior then his targets.

There are a few characters in GW which can provide shutdown,(mesmer/ranger/split) use those characters and the things you mentioned shouldn't be such a big problem. If you don't address those issues anyways you will probably keep having ruff times.

R A N D O M
10-05-2007, 20:23
There are a few characters in GW which can provide shutdown,(mesmer/ranger/split) use those characters and the things you mentioned shouldn't be such a big problem. If you don't address those issues anyways you will probably keep having ruff times.

and they have their mes/ranger denying your snares...so their monks can kite but i bet that wasn't taken into consideration when calculating vamp's damage numbers...pre-kiting!

sundering > vamp...

i guess vamp might have a *bit* better dps numbers if you can fail-lock on a snared target that has no block/evade enchants/stance up...

when was the last time that happened...

thinking...

still thinkning...

WAIT! never!

So sundering > vamp! z0mg! hax0r!

Why don't people understand this? Numbers on paper mean nothing when you're actually playing and it all comes down to this...sundering crits kill people like ensign and david said...

EcHoMaN
10-05-2007, 20:44
@Random
who the **** relies solely on ele's for snares? pre-kite, move to next target. Second thing, how does the quote you picked relate to freaken vamp vs sundering, tards, they're everywhere.

shardfenix
10-05-2007, 20:45
You don't understand. I do not want the 13dmg every 5 hits, I want the much smaller chance of 13dmg every hit in a chain. Because getting two or three triggers on sundering in a row on crits is enough to kill someone, something that vamp won't ever do. The actual DPS numbers favor vamp, although the output is fairly negligible between either. If you play for DPS, go vamp. If you want to play your cards for more kills, go sundering.Fine, have it your way. I came to give you the math and I did.


i guess vamp might have a *bit* better dps numbers if you can fail-lock on a snared target that has no block/evade enchants/stance up...

when was the last time that happened...

Why don't people understand this? Numbers on paper mean nothing when you're actually playing and it all comes down to this...sundering crits kill people like ensign and david said...
First, vamp adds twice as much damage as sundering on average, so I wouldn't call it a *bit*.
Second, I never have a trouble with blind because I bring monks
Third, I never have trouble with aegis/sod because I bring rend on my own warrior's bar. I don't mind not being able to put half the damage of vamp on one hit, because when I KD them and let vamp DPS the **** out of them over 5 hits, they die regardless. Pressure > spike.

R A N D O M
10-05-2007, 23:23
@echoman
they certainly are everywhere...
you post was about your midline keeping your wars clean...my post was about the other team also having a midline (OMG!) trying to prevent you from rolling right through them. Because of this you aren't going to be triggering vamp everytime you swing becuase you aren't gonna be clean all the time, so calculating vamp damage assuming you're gonna hit everytime doesn't work!

@shardfenix
vamp over 5 hits is 25 damage...i'd rather call for someone to wand my target...seriously, that "DPS the **** out of" people?

o yeah, did you factor this into your little damage numbers? I see vamp, i pull out my blunt shield...

David Holtzman
11-05-2007, 04:02
Shard proved it himself, Sundering doesn't have that much less dps while still having no drawback. Furious seems a smart idea to have on hand just incase as well.

I personally don't get much use out of furious when I'm not using enraging or the like. I find I prefer more damage to an extra hit of adrenaline now and then. I would leave that up to your warrior's personal preference though, as I've never seen a game lost because of weapon mods.

************************************************** ********


Fine, have it your way. I came to give you the math and I did.

Pardon me if I misunderstood, but didn't your math back up my argument? I said that vamp is better for DPS, which you proved. I said that a sundercrit does more damage than a vampcrit, which you proved. I said that I play for a chain of sundercrits, which you proved does more damage than a chain of vampcrits. The conclusion I reached was playing for kills works better with sundering, playing for DPS works better with vamp. All of this is supported by your data, so I'm confused why you disagree?

shardfenix
11-05-2007, 07:17
Pardon me if I misunderstood, but didn't your math back up my argument? I said that vamp is better for DPS, which you proved. I said that a sundercrit does more damage than a vampcrit, which you proved. I said that I play for a chain of sundercrits, which you proved does more damage than a chain of vampcrits. The conclusion I reached was playing for kills works better with sundering, playing for DPS works better with vamp. All of this is supported by your data, so I'm confused why you disagree?
Because those numbers assumed that every hit was sundering. Unfortunately, sundering only triggers 20% of the time, and crits only trigger ~25% of the time, depending on your attribute level. 1/5 * 1/4 = 1 out of every 20 hits will get your "sunder crit," and the chance of you getting a "chain" of them is even smaller - possible - but smaller. It all depends on "luck" if you believe in luck, or if you don't, it depends on what the server's millisecond timer is at plus how many commands it's performing. If you're hitting prot-less targets without bring blind, vamp is better. If you're trying to hit through aegis, sundering *may* do more damage. The main difference between the two is the error. Vamp has no error. Sundering does. I'm a player who doesn't take chances unless I have to, and between sund v vamp, I take both and use both. My original argument was that vamp does more damage, and it does.


o yeah, did you factor this into your little damage numbers? I see vamp, i pull out my blunt shield...
Actually I did. Vamp isn't blunt damage so that's not a problem to me.

fallot
11-05-2007, 08:50
Actually I did. Vamp isn't blunt damage so that's not a problem to me.

uh, I think he means being hit by a Vamp hammer tells your opponent the type of damage you are doing (blunt), something not revealed with a Sundering weapon.

R A N D O M
11-05-2007, 14:13
Actually I did. Vamp isn't blunt damage so that's not a problem to me.

vamp is still physical damage...


uh, I think he means being hit by a Vamp hammer tells your opponent the type of damage you are doing (blunt), something not revealed with a Sundering weapon.

ty

cranialexodus
11-05-2007, 17:32
uh, I think he means being hit by a Vamp hammer tells your opponent the type of damage you are doing (blunt), something not revealed with a Sundering weapon.

nitpick, exception of colossal pick, though that's a reasonably unsubtle skin.

Some Dude
12-05-2007, 05:48
I am swayed now to believing that sundering hammer > vamp hammer (I never did believe this before).

What about for sword / axe? What are the leet people running these days? Is vamp still better for those?

R A N D O M
12-05-2007, 06:18
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=415

Axe: sunder, ele, zealous
Sword: sunder, ele, zealous
Hammer: sunder, ele

*Edit* Can I link to other sites? Yes No Maybe?

B Ephekt
12-05-2007, 06:42
Sundering on sword is pretty crappy. The triggers aren't large enough to care about and sword crits are tiny. Sword is more about pressure, so vamp is the clear winner there imo.

On axe, I still use vamp. Sundering only gets used lately as a switch due to the hex meta.


Generally though, I take zealous, vamp, sundering, icy and a wand set. As we've already seen in this thread, vamp is the winner for pressure, sundering is the winner for chances for large triggers. There's no reason to not use both.

Ranger Nietzsche
12-05-2007, 09:52
vamp is still physical damage...



ty

vamp is lifesteal. not physical.

David Holtzman
12-05-2007, 11:08
vamp is lifesteal. not physical.

His point is that if you're using vamp then the enemy knows you are using physical damage and can switch to the appropriate shield. With sundering, there's really no easy way to tell whether it actually is the sundering or its an elemental of some flavor.

shardfenix
14-05-2007, 00:40
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=415

Axe: sunder, ele, zealous
Sword: sunder, ele, zealous
Hammer: sunder, ele

*Edit* Can I link to other sites? Yes No Maybe?
Cause team quitter is the absolute authority on what's good... QQ is a horrible guild.

vamp is still physical damage...
ty
I rest my case

David Holtzman
14-05-2007, 01:02
Cause team quitter is the absolute authority on what's good... QQ is a horrible guild.


Pretty sure iQ agrees on this one, if you like them better.

shardfenix
14-05-2007, 06:55
iQ doesn't suck, but they're also not the ultimate authority on pvp. You can't argue with math, I don't care what guild you are. They use sundering because they think it does more damage...or maybe they're phobic about the degen.

When you prove that 13 > 25, then you can call out as many bad top guilds as you want.

Ranger Nietzsche
14-05-2007, 07:10
its more a case of DPS vs Spike

albeit its not exactly a guaranteed or common spike

The same arguments about vamp vs sundering happened back when it was 10/10, but of course the answers to those was obvious.


All your numbers are percentages and DPS numbers. You can't really compare the effectiveness of a consistent DPS vs a percentage chance to spike without converting the percentage chance to spike into DPS like numbers. But that isn't an accurate conversion since here once a certain amount of damage is done (IE a kill) no more is necessary.

Djinn Effer
14-05-2007, 08:25
Psst... I have a solution to your problem:

DPS with vamp, unload adren with sundering.

Crayon throwing over children?

Ranger Nietzsche
14-05-2007, 09:15
I do usually take both.

David Holtzman
14-05-2007, 10:32
When you prove that 13 > 25, then you can call out as many bad top guilds as you want.

Are you being intentionally dense? I've already explained in depth the difference between playing your cards for a spike and doing DPS. If you haven't grasped it after two full explanations, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do here.

shardfenix
14-05-2007, 22:52
Like I've already said, sundering does have a higher potential for damage, but it has a lot more error. A damage potential graph would look something like this

................|---0---|.......Vampyric
..........|------0------|....Sundering

Vamp has more average damage, more min damage, less max damage.

Bloody Samuel
15-05-2007, 13:07
Vampiric DPS is greater than Sundering DPS

Everyone Knows this. However if you read carefully this quote you will see the essence of Davods argument.



I said that a sundercrit does more damage than a vampcrit, which you proved. I said that I play for a chain of sundercrits, which you proved does more damage than a chain of vampcrits. The conclusion I reached was playing for kills works better with sundering, playing for DPS works better with vamp. All of this is supported by your data, so I'm confused why you disagree?


Are you dense?

R A N D O M
04-06-2007, 07:04
rofl...

this thread is funny

exjeh
14-06-2007, 16:19
To answer at Question 3 at the first post , I would run an LoD/infuse Mo/a with return and holy veil , An Rc Mo/a with Sig of dev and deny hexes.

I would run a purge On one of the backline , but there's a posibility to bring Purge on a adrealine war such as a cripslash w/mo. Seems Pretty weird but it worked for my guild and some guilds in top 20ish.