Why is everyone choosing Health over Armor?

[SurviverX]

Seems like everybody in GvG have at least 500 health. I thought it's experimentally proven armor reduces more damage than health.

[David Holtzman]

Armor reduces base damage and elemental damage, of which most damage in GvG is not. Bonus damage ignores armor, mesmer damage ignores armor, degen ignores armor, and so on. Health works against all of this, however.

[Selene Raseth]

Low end of health on casters is usually 585 health, so it's quite a bit more than 500. It's been increased every chapter that comes out, since so far each one has added roughly 50 extra max health as an option for upgrades.

[Warskullx]

Health is good vs spike.

+Damage from attacks ignore armor
Many popular mesmer skills ignore armor
Degen goes around armor

Health is reliable, +armor is not

[Nazpharoz]

Just like some said, higher health can counter a bit more then +armor.

however wants to add a few things on this.
most armors can't have +armor vs everything. most are +armor vs elemental or vs physical. most gvg builds are doing both physical and elemental damage.
on a sword/axe you can choose between +5 armor or +30hp. this +5 armor is vs everything what isn't armor ignoring. the +30hp is more reliable against a lot more and especialy when they spike.
the +5 armor will do a bit better against melee training till they are going to spike you.

I mostly have some sets nowaday where only my shields have different mods off +armor and the extra sword and staff has 20% longer enchant, but don't use this much.

Most guilds where the rank is above 1500 aren't that stricktly about starting health, while guilds around the rank below are mostly stricktly with minimum starting health. Some have minimum starting health off 550+, some goes to 600+ starting health.
As a caster you are able to push your health to 630 or even 650 health by weapset and armor. it only depends on the needed runes on your armor.
2 minor runes of something makes your health go to 650.
3 minor runes lowers it to 640. (mostly the starting health the infuser has)

sword and axe warriors have around this health also, but hammer warriors have lower health, mostly 610 to 620 at max. (try to spike them down quick with their 80 armor)

[SurviverX]

If armor is so unimportant, why don't we all just run IW and slash through our enemies?

[cranialexodus]

I thought it's experimentally proven armor reduces more damage than health.

Not that surprising consider max health has no effect on damage taken.


If armor is so unimportant, why don't we all just run IW and slash through our enemies?

IW ignores armour. It's one of just two things it has going for it, the other being it ignores block/miss. However if IW was 80-90 dps rather than about 30 it may actually see play. Seriously, 20 lower base AL than a warrior is the very last of IW's problems.

There's more to consider than merely 40 health vs 10 (conditional, though potentially as good as unconditional e.g. centurion's) armour, 5 armour vs 30 health. The armour stacking cap gives AL-boosting equipment an advantage it never used to have. Then again, consider viable methods of increasing armour and max health. Fertile Season, melandru and vital weapon are the only options for max health, for armour there's perhaps shield of regeneration, watch yourself, stand your ground, shield of deflection, disc stance, armour of mist and for projectils shields up!. I guess fertile season is 15AL too. Armour boosting is easier really; vital's powerful but a potential timebomb and communing is a bit of a wasteland outside of 4v4 or with multiple rts. Losing 20AL has no danger carried along with it. Clearly the higher your max health relative to AL is, the more useful an increase in AL is relative to an increase max health. Beyond 100-120 adding AL is basically a waste of effort. With health however you may benefit from a health increase right up til around 1-1.2k. The biggest armour ignoring, prot ignoring spikes are to the tune of 700 even in TA.

[Radiant Dawnstar]

Prophecies - Superior Runes, 450-500 Health.
Factions - Major Runes, 500-550 Health
Nightfall - Minor Runes, 550-650 Health

Eye of the North - No Runes, 650-700 Health

Is that what we're going for?

[David Holtzman]

No one ever ran majors. It went straight from sups to minors when armor swapping got nerfed. Even before then there were no sups on casters since prophecies, and only a few on warriors.

[Radiant Dawnstar]

Many people run Majors now actually, and in Prophecies everyone but Monks ran Superiors. That might just be my HA-based opinion, but I still think it's true.

[Wet One]

about the only class you will see sups or majors on are warriors or rangers. If i play BA ranger i will run 2 majors just to max out on break points.... but rangers are hard as hell to kill, so its really not an issue. Same with warrior, sometimes to hit a breakpoint people will run a sup, but usualy its all minors because the difference between 14 and 16 axe or sword, is not worth the health you lose.

[David Holtzman]

Many people run Majors now actually, and in Prophecies everyone but Monks ran Superiors. That might just be my HA-based opinion, but I still think it's true.

Oh, in HA sure. In iA we ran with not one but two superiors on our spikers and even sups on our monks. You can do that in HA without getting punished for it, or at least you could. Not in GvG though. iB was the first guild really to start taking sups off their warriors, and people had learned not to run casters with sups long before that. You would still see people swapping sups out of range of combat, like the old Eprod HP eles, but otherwise not so much.

[SurviverX]

Prophecies - Superior Runes, 450-500 Health.
Factions - Major Runes, 500-550 Health
Nightfall - Minor Runes, 550-650 Health

Eye of the North - No Runes, 650-700 Health

Is that what we're going for?

That can be very true! Especially if they plan to implement that "cracked armor" condition with GW:EN.

Then again, we still don't know what it actually does.

Some possibilities I can think of:
1) Reduce character's AL straight to 60. This will make health more important
2) A straight cut of -20 AL. This will make armor more important. Since that's a +20~30% damage.
3) All damage adds 20% armor penetration. Wouldn't make much difference.

I hope it's #2 :rolleyes:

[cranialexodus]

That can be very true! Especially if they plan to implement that "cracked armor" condition with GW:EN.

Then again, we still don't know what it actually does.

Some possibilities I can think of:
1) Reduce character's AL straight to 60. This will make health more important
2) A straight cut of -20 AL. This will make armor more important. Since that's a +20~30% damage.
3) All damage adds 20% armor penetration. Wouldn't make much difference.

I hope it's #2 :rolleyes:

If it does any of those it will be pve only. 700 damage in one unblockable attack would be moderately realistic with the assistance of #2 but where they would all be really ridiculous is on a caster spike team.

I run 605 health on a ranger usually I think. 12+1+1 expertise 10+2 marks 10 WS or something.

[woot im a warrior]

If it does any of those it will be pve only. 700 damage in one unblockable attack would be moderately realistic with the assistance of #2 but where they would all be really ridiculous is on a caster spike team.

I do not think #2 he listed would be much of a problem, we already have weaken armor and no one uses it. As long as it cannot be spammed, I cannot see the condition becoming much of a problem.

[SurviverX]

I do not think #2 he listed would be much of a problem, we already have weaken armor and no one uses it. As long as it cannot be spammed, I cannot see the condition becoming much of a problem.

Weaken armor has 3 second cast! That's like...forever! And it only work for physical damage too...

Since everybody is using +health, a -20 from 60AL is a 40% increase in damage. This can be lethal if it sticks. I wonder why nobody add this to hexway...:huh: Even if it hits a warrior, dropping from 80AL to 60AL is still a 30% increase in damage.

[NoPantsRepublic]

If I remember correctly, every 40 armor above 60 prevents 50% of damage taken, so -20 armor from 60 AL would give the attacker +25% damage.

Actually, people slap as much +armor and +health on themselves as possible, which is why you see a lot of casters using shields.

EDIT: but player use survivor insignias over the other +AL ones most of the time because the +AL are all conditional (i.e. against physical or while attacking), while the +health are useful in all situations.

[cranialexodus]

I do not think #2 he listed would be much of a problem, we already have weaken armor and no one uses it. As long as it cannot be spammed, I cannot see the condition becoming much of a problem.

it would be stackable with JI+shadow burden wheras weaken armour isn't and its cast time sucks too. Making burden both stick and be effective is hard, but not that hard. Sticking JI on a aoe/mom/sor smiter isn't difficult. Under JI+shadow burden shattering assault is capable of ~405 damage. Another -20 and you're probably looking at a 1 hit KO on a 15 second recharge, imbalanced even with the inconveniences and counters involved.

-20AL does make a large difference, 41% off the top of my head, which is why all the ways to get it have major handicaps.

[Some Dude]

If I remember correctly, every 40 armor above 60 prevents 50% of damage taken, so -20 armor from 60 AL would give the attacker +25% damage.

It's a logarithmic scale, not a linear one. -20 armor gives you +41% damage, and -40 armor gives you +100% damage.

[shardfenix]

In the long run, armor is better, but armor doesn't matter against spike builds or degen builds, and in GvG if you don't run degen, you don't win.

[Wet One]

In the long run, armor is better, but armor doesn't matter against spike builds or degen builds, and in GvG if you don't run degen, you don't win.

I disagree w/this. If you apply effective pressure, you dont need to degen.

Our normal build is
hammer w
axe warrior (normally shock, sometimes bulls charge)
Burning Arrow R <-------- only degen in build
MoR mes
b-surge ele
sod monk
lod monk
water ele shield regen runner.


There is not much degen at all and we blow up the majority of teams we face, our only losses are to top 50 teams, or random *** builds people run in at's

[Warskullx]

Prophecies - Superior Runes, 450-500 Health.
Factions - Major Runes, 500-550 Health
Nightfall - Minor Runes, 550-650 Health

Eye of the North - No Runes, 650-700 Health

Is that what we're going for?

I already tend to run 660 health on most of my characters. An extra five health from my GoH and an extra three health from my divine or more HP. The extra HP pays off surprisingly often. You ever try and clean spike someone running 660? You pretty much need to be running rit spike.

When you start looking at things, Vitae runes are so incredibly good. For example, on your ele, you sacrifice 3 energy and a 1 point from your Glyph of Lesser energy for a 10hp boost. Vitae wins out over Energy Storage runes almost ever time. With a warrior, minor strength runes aren't worth it unless they put you at a break point.

Minor runes used to be free, now they cost you 10 HP.

[ekiru]

Prophecies - Superior Runes, 450-500 Health.
Factions - Major Runes, 500-550 Health
Nightfall - Minor Runes, 550-650 Health

Eye of the North - No Runes, 650-700 Health

Is that what we're going for?
More accurately, Nightfall- one minor runes- 600-700 health(for some reason, somehow, one night when I was LoD/infusing, and I was running 674 health.

Personally, when I run a water flagger(although haven't done so recently, due to not playing GW anymore), I run a water rune, a sup vigor, either 3 vitaes or 2 vitaes and a restoration. On a 40/40 set, I've still got 590 health with one of those setups, probably the one with the restoration(it's been a while, so I'm not totally sure). Warriors are the only thing that I don't run 630 to 700 health on(typically run 550-ish on my warriors(mainly hammer) because I don't have room for vitaes with weapon rune, strength or tactics rune, clarity, restoration, and sup vigor and because I like radiant armor). I really should use more health, because when people actually bother trying to spike me, they usually do rather well. I rarely ranger, but I guess I might run majors or sups on them if it hit a breakpoint on cripshot or BA or troll or nat stride.

Warskull makes an excellent point that Vitaes have made every non+health rune have an effective extra -10 hp. Running a sup rune is effectively -85 health because of the vitae you lose by using it. Running a major is -45(this means that 2 majors is actually worse for health than one superior, but better than 1 sup 1 minor),

[cranialexodus]

More accurately, Nightfall- one minor runes- 600-700 health(for some reason, somehow, one night when I was LoD/infusing, and I was running 674 health.
sounds like morale bonus... if that's not too obvious. A dervish would be able to get something like 685 without skills if not using a scythe, without morale or dp.

[SurviverX]

Superior Rune -75
Major Rune -30
Minor Rune -0
Vitae +10

Each jump in rune is -1 in attribute and +30 hp. That's the same until you get to vitae. Running Minors still worths it.

[ekiru]

sounds like morale bonus... if that's not too obvious. A dervish would be able to get something like 685 without skills if not using a scythe, without morale or dp.

Pretty sure I didn't have a boost. It was in an outpost, IIRC. It's not very important, anyway.

[B Ephekt]

No one ever ran majors. It went straight from sups to minors when armor swapping got nerfed. Even before then there were no sups on casters since prophecies, and only a few on warriors.
This is the truth.

Many people run Majors now actually, and in Prophecies everyone but Monks ran Superiors. That might just be my HA-based opinion, but I still think it's true.
I don't know anybody decent who uses majors in GvG, and most good tombers use only minors. HA is kind of a weird thing though... not really a measure of good pvp practices.

No offense, but I'd have to question anyone who thinks +1 attribute (generally +3-5 damage on attack skills) is worth -35 health in pvp. Then again, it probably doesn't matter that much in HA...

[SurviverX]

Ok...does a +39 armor worth -40 health?

[B Ephekt]

Your question has no context, and is seemly arbitrary and rhetorical, how do can you expect a serious answer?


Is this armor from skill, defense mods, a shield, what? Why would gaining 39 armor cause you to lose 40hp?

[VILenin]

No offense, but I'd have to question anyone who thinks +1 attribute (generally +3-5 damage on attack skills) is worth -35 health in pvp. Then again, it probably doesn't matter that much in HA...
It's good for hitting breakpoints on attributes that have them, i.e. Critical Strikes and Expertise. I usually run Major Critical Strikes with headpiece so I can hit the 13-att breakpoint and still have points to put in other attributes.

I also find it helps with certain attributes like Dagger Mastery or Scythe Mastery as those tend to have rather significant boosts between levels. For example, one point in DM adds about 10-15 damage on a spammable combo, which means the damage gained is typically more than the health lost.

[Ace Bear]

How? You hit 10-15 extra damage at most every 4 seconds while you are always without the 35 health. That isn't a good trade-off.

I wouldn't run superiors or majors unless it was a spike build and I just had to have that 16 in my weapon.

[B Ephekt]

It's good for hitting breakpoints on attributes that have them, i.e. Critical Strikes and Expertise. I usually run Major Critical Strikes with headpiece so I can hit the 13-att breakpoint and still have points to put in other attributes.

I also find it helps with certain attributes like Dagger Mastery or Scythe Mastery as those tend to have rather significant boosts between levels. For example, one point in DM adds about 10-15 damage on a spammable combo, which means the damage gained is typically more than the health lost.
That 10-15 extra damage won't mean much once you get DP. And you can forget winning a VoD match with a sin @ -30%+.

Also, Scythe Mastery does not benefit significantly from 14..15..16, I can hit expertise breakpoints with all minors and I don't recall sins needing enough attributes that they would need majors or supers. Just imo though.

[woot im a warrior]

In a GvG there is only 1 character I would even consider running a major on, and that is a BA ranger, just because they have great survivability, and are most likely not going to die.

[B Ephekt]

I used superiors on paras in a Def Anthem/Soldier's D/hex build and it worked pretty well. Of course that build is ridiculously defensive, and paras pretty much never die anyway, but meh.

I wouldn't use anything but minors on anything else, unless it was a full caster spike. That's just me though...

[ekiru]

How? You hit 10-15 extra damage at most every 4 seconds while you are always without the 35 health. That isn't a good trade-off.

I wouldn't run superiors or majors unless it was a spike build and I just had to have that 16 in my weapon.

Majors are fairly common on rangers, particularly those running 15e elites(pre-re-buffed cripshot, BHA, etc.). I think paragons sometimes run majors, too.

[liamSlayer]

I only ever run minors, health is far to precious to me. On my warrior i sometimes have a sup axe or sword if i need the extra damage

on my derv i have

Hood - Sup Vigor
Chest - Radient
Legs- Radient
Hands and feet - Sup achuniment or vitie

Ornate Scythe

7-41
Double pen 20%
+30 Hp
15^50

I like that scythe, but i need to get rid of the double pen mod, there useless, i need a vamp or zeleous one

My dervish including skills can get at least

680 HP (AT LEAST)

id rather have HP, but suvivor insignia arnt worth it, need energy for dervish skills.

[ekiru]

I like that scythe, but i need to get rid of the double pen mod, there useless, i need a vamp or zeleous one

Sundering is great.
Vampiric is great.
Zealous is great.
Ebon is great.
Furious is great but not for scythes.

[SurviverX]

Does this means we can use Shadowy Burden/Shattering Assault assassins for frontline?

Nice...100 dps...with enchant remove.

[Some Dude]

That actually sounds kind of leet.

But no.

[SurviverX]

That actually sounds kind of leet.

But no.



If armor is so unimportant, why don't we all just run IW and slash through our enemies?




IW ignores armour. It's one of just two things it has going for it, the other being it ignores block/miss. However if IW was 80-90 dps rather than about 30 it may actually see play. Seriously, 20 lower base AL than a warrior is the very last of IW's problems.


So, why not?

[Ace Bear]

Simple because Shadowy Burden is a hex that requires no other hex be used on that target to be effective. Even a healer hench or master of healing can take care of one hex that doesn't have a cover hex.

[SurviverX]

Do your Migraine/Panic stuff on enemy backline, then Shadow Burden enemy frontline.

Now...which removal take priority?

[Ace Bear]

In that scenario the Migraine/Panic but there are other easy counters. Lol who needs to remove it when I can just have my B-surger sit on your for the duration?

[SurviverX]

Time the Shattering Assault on the b-surge after blind is removed. Lets see how many b-surge can you do without air attunement.

[Warskullx]

If armor is so unimportant, why don't we all just run IW and slash through our enemies?

To borrow a phrase from Vindexus...

WASD, BUILD DOWN!

[cranialexodus]

So, why not?

Clarify please. IW is something like 30 dps before IAS. If mesmers had 100 base AL it wouldn't make it a strong build (and they could easily manage about 86 before buffs).


Does this means we can use Shadowy Burden/Shattering Assault assassins for frontline?

Nice...100 dps...with enchant remove.

I have seen shattering assault sins used in split builds once. Siphon speed was used however, something with the condition of shadowy burden in a hex heavy meta is garbage, and 10e 15r isn't helping. The build wasn't very good anyway.

[SurviverX]

Clarify please. IW is something like 30 dps before IAS. If mesmers had 100 base AL it wouldn't make it a strong build (and they could easily manage about 86 before buffs).


That...not really what I meant. I'm quoting you for the part that you say armor is unimportant when you can have high DPS. Which is what the assassin is about.



I have seen shattering assault sins used in split builds once. Siphon speed was used however, something with the condition of shadowy burden in a hex heavy meta is garbage, and 10e 15r isn't helping. The build wasn't very good anyway.

That's because those people don't know to use non-hex alternatives of snaring. Black Mantis Thrust for example.

[cranialexodus]

That...not really what I meant. I'm quoting you for the part that you say armor is unimportant when you can have high DPS. Which is what the assassin is about.

I didn't say that. I said lack of armour is not why IW is a terrible build. the skill IW is why IW is a terrible build. Buff IW massively and then we can talk about mesmers' armour. Armour is certainly important for a pressure build on the frontline - not absolutely essential, but you are going to have to have a very powerful reason for a melee pressure build to be a good option, without decent armour.


That's because those people don't know to use non-hex alternatives of snaring. Black Mantis Thrust for example.

You're not making any sense. Why would you possibly take shadowy burden over siphon speed if you're not getting -20AL, which as has been explained you're not going to be doing? Siphon speed is a better snare than BMT, which sacrifices shattering's assault's potential for a completely unblockable chain, for reasons including duration, recharge, energy cost, speed differential and enhanced survivability. BMT is also conditional on a hex which isn't going to stick if you're running solely burden or expose.

[Some Dude]

Shattering assault = DPS

So your scenario is:

1) Cast migraine/panic on monks, who naturally have 60 AL
2) Cast shadowy burden on frontline, reducing them from 80 - 96AL to 60 - 76 AL
3) Beat on the frontline, who still has more armor than the backline target.

What have you gained? You may as well have unleashed your combo on their backline, minus shadowy burden.....they'll have the same or worse AL so you'll have higher DPS. Plus, you could'ev taken siphon speed, which is about a million times better than shadowy burden.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if conjures work with shadowy burden.

[Vela]

Out of curiosity, I wonder if conjures work with shadowy burden.

No. It doesn't.

- Vela

[Absolute Eminence]

degen pressure is way more pressure for monk backlines. to mitigate this midline casters and frontline bring more health. done.