Fahranur, Orr, and Bahltek

[aptaleonII]

I and Santax recently came up with a theory explaining the link between Fahranur, the first city, and Orr- the link mentioned by the Chokhin Librarian Gahmir Lenon-


Ahai. I'm currently writing a paper on the origins of the world; more specifically the First City and how it relates to the ancient Orrian Kings. I love ancient civilizations! Fascinating subject, isn't it?
When our theory was complete, we realised that almost all of Bahltek’s dialogues fit right in with it.

First of all was Bahltek’s speech regarding the scroll at Fahranur-


The certain scroll I am searching for deals with a place of Nightmare, and the terrible beings that dwell there.

The “place of nightmare” obviously fits the Realm of Torment, and the clear answer may be that he is searching for the Scroll of the Apocrypha. However, keeping the link to Orr in mind, we remembered that the Catacombs of Arah had multiple forbidden scriptures. The one used by Vizier Khilbron, at least, was a scroll of Abaddon, and so could the others be. This link may seem tenuous at best, but continuing on-


They belonged to a most effulgent mage from an exceptionally advanced civilization. He was able to traverse through multiple planes of existence, some of which predate the one you currently call your native soil.

The most obvious conclusion here seems to be that this refers to Lord Odran. He fits the bill closest, easily. However, this also fits into our theory perfectly, if we take the mage to be Terick (Razakel). He was able to traverse from the Realm of Torment to our plane of Existence, at the very least. It’s not a huge leap of the imagination to assume the Scrolls of Abaddon in the Catacombs of Arah belonged to him.

We then come to Bahltek’s speech about the Ghost Ship:



I've heard rumors of a spirit ship sighted just off this coast. Yes, an authentic, bona fide, ghost ship. Why don't you swim out and visit it? Too bad. In any case, there are dimensions out there other than the one we currently inhabit. This ship is clearly an echo of one of those dimensions.

This would fit perfectly if the “Ghost Ship” was taken to be an Orrian Ship. It would strengthen the link between Fahranur and Orr no end, except for one thing- the Ghost Ship in question is said to be an echo of another dimension. Several explanations were suggested- that the ship was not full of the Lich-risen Orrian-Undead, but rather ancient Orrian Spirits, with nothing to do with the Lich whatsoever, for example. Quite easily, their origins could have been the Mists.

We then come to Bahltek’s speech about Water and its properties:


Water is powerful; more powerful, I'm sure, than you realize. It can be used as a mirror to see into places that are magically obscured. As you can see, we are surrounded by the viscous substance, and I happen to have a bowl. I will leave it to your dizzyingly vigorous intellect to put together that parcel of information to your own avail.

This hardly fit in at all, until Santax remembered the innermost chamber of Fahranur, the one that housed the Apocrypha, and the one that leads down to unexplored depths of the city, is flooded, and even full of Water Djinn. Those unexplored depths, I may remind you, are sprouting Abaddon Tendrils prolifically. We suspect that that chamber (or rather the unreachable doors inside it) houses our link to Orr- whether it’s magical or mundane, and perhaps that that is what Bahltek is searching for.

The last of Bahltek’s speeches is this, at Lahtenda Bog:


The gods can be seen in the heavens... to varying degrees. They've emblazoned their marks upon the firmament, and these marks are not constant.

Santax and I ventured out into Lahtenda Bog, the Astralarium, and even Nahpui Quarter to try to find the meaning of this, but that meaning still eludes us; the stars are nowhere to be found in Lahtenda Bog- it’s a cloudy night. However, I have just thought of something; perhaps if we were to look at the reflection of the skies in the clear pools behind the Sunspear Crypt in Lahtenda Bog, we’ll be able to see our elusive stars.

Santax and I are convinced Orr will see a return in GW:2- it has such potential. Perhaps this is a hint of things to come.

I would not have thought this much into Bahltek’s mysterious dialogues if encouragement to decipher his riddle had not been printed in the Magazine a month or two ago (the EOTN/GW special one). Note: If this theory, by some massive stroke of luck, turns out to be correct, Santax and myself take equal credit.

[Santax]

If this theory, by some massive stroke of luck, turns out to be correct, Santax and myself take equal credit.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/4850/highfiveqw2.jpg


The “place of nightmare” obviously fits the Realm of Torment, and the clear answer may be that he is searching for the Scroll of the Apocrypha. However, keeping the link to Orr in mind, we remembered that the Catacombs of Arah had multiple forbidden scriptures. The one used by Vizier Khilbron, at least, was a scroll of Abaddon, and so could the others be.
Not to mention that every Orrian killed by that Abaddonian scroll in the Cataclysm was sent straight to the Realm of Torment.

And yes, I am 99.9% sure we have not seen the last of Orr. Inititally it was simply optimistic speculation - what would make a better homeland for the undead (should they be a playable race) than Orr? Underwater, which is ok, since the undead don't need to breathe, and it's also the only place left where there is a large quantity of undead, except of course the Desolation.

Of course, that was just speculation - there was nothing really to back it up until in the E3 presentation where the developer mistakenly referred to the Tarnished Coast as the Kingdom of Orr. An easy mistake to make, you'd think, since they're both areas known to exist in Tyria but are unexplored - it's not too difficult for someone who isn't into the lore to get the two mixed up. However, the developer specifically mentioned that the Kingdom will rise from the depths for GW:EN. Gaile has since discounted this in a news post contradicting some of the details shared in E3, saying:

During the E3 presentations in Los Angeles, a lot of great information was shared, but a few errors were made regarding features and elements of Guild Wars: Eye of the North and Guild Wars 2.

We know that players love new information about the game, but we want to make sure that what you have is as accurate as possible. Therefore, here are some clarifications for you:
Dwarves are not a playable race in Guild Wars 2.
The Tarnished Coast is located on the coastal area south of the Maguuma Jungle; it is not at all connected with the Kingdom of Orr, which sank into the sea long ago. The idea that Orr may someday rise from the depths is interesting, but nothing like that happens in GW:EN.
There are no pit traps in GW:EN.
Players can unlock all missions and all areas, regardless of their reputation with the other races.
There are many ways to improve your reputation with the Norn, Dwarves, Ebon Vanguard, and Asura. Mini-games are one way to gain reputation, but there are several additional ways for you to gain reputation.
You do not control golems directly, but you can direct them to some degree.
This is interesting, since you don't need to be a top psychologist to know that the developer that stated all the false facts (oxymoron much?) listed above didn't have much knowledge of lore. So where on earth did the statement that it would rise out of the water come from? I'm almost 100% convinced that he shared something about Guild Wars 2 that he shouldn't've.

[Karuro]

I'm still a bit confused about what the guy actually said at E3.
I heard him saying Rising/Rise of Orr, but now people say a place is called the River of Ore. Both sound a lot alike though.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Orr in GW2, but it's kinda foggy to think it was a clue or us not listening good enough :(

Bahltek kinda faded into the Archives, so a good job in bringing him up again and linking with Orr ^^

[Gmr Leon]

And I wasn't invited? :cry:

A suggestion from myself may be to scour the Crystal Desert, Diviner's Ascent for one, for certain answers. I'm almost certain there's something we're overlooking out there. I just can't think of what really.


This would fit perfectly if the “Ghost Ship” was taken to be an Orrian Ship. It would strengthen the link between Fahranur and Orr no end, except for one thing- the Ghost Ship in question is said to be an echo of another dimension. Several explanations were suggested- that the ship was not full of the Lich-risen Orrian-Undead, but rather ancient Orrian Spirits, with nothing to do with the Lich whatsoever, for example. Quite easily, their origins could have been the Mists.

I feel this may be pushing it a bit. However when the GW:EotN was leaked someone pointed out the desolate island to the north and it being Orr. At first I just sort of thought, hopeful thinking, but oddly enough if you were to cut some edges here and there it actually does seem close.

May be right, may be wrong, but for all we know it could be.

I was going to play Okami today, but I think I'm going to log in and look around some of the locations you mentioned. New sets of eyes with a new goal can sometimes find things old sets of eyes with an old goal couldn't. :wink:


I'm still a bit confused about what the guy actually said at E3.
I heard him saying Rising/Rise of Orr, but now people say a place is called the River of Ore. Both sound a lot alike though.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Orr in GW2, but it's kinda foggy to think it was a clue or us not listening good enough :(

Bahltek kinda faded into the Archives, so a good job in bringing him up again and linking with Orr ^^

Riven of Ore. Bahltek was given links to Orr previously, but they were faint and usually stretching things too far. If I remember correctly anyway.

[Santax]

I'm still a bit confused about what the guy actually said at E3.
I heard him saying Rising/Rise of Orr, but now people say a place is called the River of Ore. Both sound a lot alike though.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Orr in GW2, but it's kinda foggy to think it was a clue or us not listening good enough :(

River of Ore? Haven't heard anything about that. But now I've had to go check, I may as well do a transcript of what the guy at the presentation actually says when the game's at the Tarnished Coast (btw, does anyone know what his name is?).


In the original Prophecies, there's a continent talked about, the continent of Orr. This was a continent that had been buried beneath the ocean. In Guild Wars: Eye of the North, this continent has risen to the surface, and this continent was inhabited by magical beings (which we don't know much about) but, as you can see, they left their mark and they left their effect on the continent of Orr. This land is very rich and magical, as you can see there's all sorts of magical effects; floating boulders and that sort of thing, and throughout this land as you explore you'll find other magical effects that you can... uh... that you can in... uh... interact with.

This is the land that the Asura came to. The Asura were driven out from underground by their... the Destroyers, a powerful race that just... the name says it all, are out to destroy life. So the Asura used their intelligence... this is a goblin... uh... golem kiln... they created this huge device that's gonna pull the magic out of the land and create these stone golems... sort of a stone mechanical defender that they use in their war against the Destroyers. You'll also be able to control one of these a little later on in the game with its own set of skills as well.
At that point he goes into the Polymock (POKéMON on steroids) Colosseum and begins to talk about racial reputation and so on.


And I wasn't invited? :cry:
Don't worry, it was a very much spur-of-the-moment thing really :tongue:

EDIT: And yes, that island to the north on the leaked map is certainly interesting. While I don't think that it is Orr... from what we know, Orr is definitely the shattered peninsula to the west of the Crystal Desert. However, the spiral looking formation on that island makes you wonder about it, and the fact it's there at all begs the question as to why it's there... it's almost certainly got no purpose, given that the map we have is the full leaked version, which can only lead us to think that it will be used in GW2.

[Gmr Leon]

I don't think it's Orr either myself. Oh, went to the Lahtenda Bog and what do you know? Old Bahltek appeared! First time I've met him in-game.


Don't worry, it was a very much spur-of-the-moment thing really

That kind of stuff usually happens with me too, can't say I'm very surprised.

[GloryFox]

Is it possible that Bahltek is in reality an Asura in disguise? They do share a common aptitude of speaking down to people.

[Gmr Leon]

Is it possible that Bahltek is in reality an Asura in disguise? They do share a common aptitude of speaking down to people.

...I really hope not. If anything I would prefer him to just be a normal human with interesting abilities and qualities. I couldn't find any stars out in Lahtenda Bog, but another place to note may be the Jaya Bluffs. Reason for this? He's looking southwest and there are two places I can think of that lie southwest. Nahpui Quarter and the Jaya Bluffs.

[Barinthus]

Mmmm considering how much we have on Bahltek, OPs' theory is a possibility. I do hope we will find more about that fellow soon.

EDIT:

Here's the night sky from Jaya Bluffs during Dragon Festival 2007. Quintus and I speculated that we might be able to find constellations of the Gods but so far I dont see anything.

I don't think this will help but at least it'll either give more clues, reinforce an idea, or disprove a notion.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4366/jayanight1ek0.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jayanight1ek0.jpg)

[Nanashi]

Is it possible that Bahltek is in reality an Asura in disguise? They do share a common aptitude of speaking down to people.

He's Naive... just because they share a common attitude towards beings of possibly lesser intelligence, doesn't make him a race he clearly isn't. :tongue:

Judging by Santex's post recording the words of the guy at the interview, I too think it was a slip of some sort. Perhaps confusion. Unless Anet pulls a gimpy catacorner on us, all evidence points Orr to be off the Crystal Desert so why it would be way up North... unless we entirely missed something.

[lavenbb]

the area west of witman's folly / droknar's forge becomes explorable as well.

That area is what I assumed is just south of Orr (at least according to previous accounts), I think there will at least be something about Orr there, so I guess it doesn't matter if Orr really does rise up like the guy said or not.

[Karuro]

the area west of witman's folly / droknar's forge becomes explorable as well.

That area is what I assumed is just south of Orr (at least according to previous accounts), I think there will at least be something about Orr there, so I guess it doesn't matter if Orr really does rise up like the guy said or not.
Found that earlier, posted the map-part on this thread (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4984529&postcount=89)
Though it looks like you can only get there from The Depth's of Tyria and (if by boat) the small bit in the north-west.

[ShadowReapr]

I am one of the few of the belief that while Bahltek is somehow mysterious, he is blown out of proportion. I believe that his talk may be related to Orr, but in a different way:

He mentions the water is more powerful than we realise. Who is the God of Water? Well, was anyway... That's right, ol' six-eyes himself. So it doesn't surprise me that, despite Abaddon's containment, his element is a bit more powerful and offers more in the way of mysticism, since, by all accounts, Abaddon was in some capacity stronger than the other gods. Ghost ship? Ghastly Margonites perhaps. Ghastly Orrians too, they all got a bit tainted by Abaddon.

I like the theory, I just don't believe it to be true. Keeping within lore rules, I believe he is meant to be misunderstood and pondered upon. Otherwise, he'd hardly feel superior to us, and we'd understand his most likely NEFARIOUS AND DEADLY plans. I kid.

[Santax]

I am one of the few of the belief that while Bahltek is somehow mysterious, he is blown out of proportion. I believe that his talk may be related to Orr, but in a different way:

He mentions the water is more powerful than we realise. Who is the God of Water? Well, was anyway... That's right, ol' six-eyes himself. So it doesn't surprise me that, despite Abaddon's containment, his element is a bit more powerful and offers more in the way of mysticism, since, by all accounts, Abaddon was in some capacity stronger than the other gods. Ghost ship? Ghastly Margonites perhaps. Ghastly Orrians too, they all got a bit tainted by Abaddon.

I like the theory, I just don't believe it to be true. Keeping within lore rules, I believe he is meant to be misunderstood and pondered upon. Otherwise, he'd hardly feel superior to us, and we'd understand his most likely NEFARIOUS AND DEADLY plans. I kid.

I'd have thought the same thing, if it weren't for Eric Flannum actually encouraging us to try and work out the messages for ourselves in the Guild Wars To Do List, in the May 2007 edition of PC Gamer. He says:


Find the mysterious sage Bahltek who wanders the lands of Elona and decipher his cryptic messages.

[aptaleonII]

I'd have thought the same thing, if it weren't for Eric Flannum actually encouraging us to try and work out the messages for ourselves in the Guild Wars To Do List, in the May 2007 edition of PC Gamer.

Pretty much the same way i feel.

[ShadowReapr]

Wasn't that the same list that encouraged ALL OUT WAR between the Heket and the Harpies? I'm not saying there's no merit to deciphering his messages, but it's like trying to decipher a caeser code without the key - perhaps not meant to be understood, perhaps something that we can't pre-empt.

The Abaddon's Mouth of Elona, probably only making sense in hindsight.

[Santax]

Wasn't that the same list that encouraged ALL OUT WAR between the Heket and the Harpies? I'm not saying there's no merit to deciphering his messages, but it's like trying to decipher a caeser code without the key - perhaps not meant to be understood, perhaps something that we can't pre-empt.

The Abaddon's Mouth of Elona, probably only making sense in hindsight.

The harpy-heket comment was made by Linsey Murdock... she writes quests and balances explorable areas. Most likely she spawned those monsters there herself! Eric Flannum, on the other hand, gets into writing lore a lot further, and in fact visits the lore forum quite frequently.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

If she did, I would love her for it, because that quest is awesome. That and the mursaat ralley spawning thingy, I love her for doing that too.

But bahltek may not make sense until EotN

[Gmr Leon]

Not sure if this is of any significance, but here's something from the skies of Dajkah Inlet.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/GmrLeon00/Guild%20Wars%20lore/gw997.jpg

Look toward the center and tell me what you make of it.

[Karuro]

<snip>
Look toward the center and tell me what you make of it.
I'm seeing faces again, which I probably shouldn't x.x

[aptaleonII]

I see a fish... a stripey fish... breathing fire... and something else... something that looks like Strong Sad.... or maybe a Deku Scrub... *rubs eyes*

[Quintus Antonius]

Okay guys, I think you are letting your imaginations get ahead of you. Come on now, let's operate with more facts and less imagination.

[Harjubal od Uo]

This may be a pretty presumptuous question for someone with as weak a graphics card as mine to pose, but would anyone who can run the game with high quality visuals be interested in putting together a catalog of skies from all the regions in the game? If we really are supposed to be evincing clues from Bahltek's words, then it certainly does seem as though some serious clues point to the heavens.

[Quintus Antonius]

The thing is, Guild Wars does not have a dynamic sky. It has a flat scape that is then turned around a central axis with a repeating pattern. So anything we can see is just this pattern repeating itself and interacting with other parts of itself as it does.

[Nanashi]

Yup, the center of the sky above is usually always clear and then clouds surround in a band like formation. There's not so much a certain message we should be seeing unless if he's pointing to an event yet to come... which is all but impossible.

[Quintus Antonius]

Indeed, I'm very against bringing game mechanics into a discussion of lore, but in this case, it is very real as the limitations of the technology used in the game prevent complex or hidden messages from being displayed in the skyscape.

In the world of Guild Wars are there messages from the gods in the sky? Yes, absolutely, this is confirmed many times across all three continents. Can we as players outside the game world see them? No, because of the limitations of the technology used to bring the game world to us.

[mocax]

I see evil images in the sky during halloween

[Nanashi]

I see evil images in the sky during halloween

Like I said, events. They also change the moon to the boogyman during that sae event. ^_^ Hell, Wintersday makes it dark in places like Kamadan and Lions Arch. (Droks is usually always dark so that doesn't count)

[Barinthus]

Gmr - if you look at my night sky from Jaya Bluffs earlier in this thread, your screenshot's night pattern is exactly the same as one in mine, fourth screen from right

[aptaleonII]

Since they changed the sky at halloween to show cloud formations of their choice, is it not possible they did so for Bahltek's clue... in perhaps just one area, very localised?

Also, like i suggested earlier, remember to check the reflection of the sky in water. Perhaps the skymessages are what Bahltek talks about when he mentions reflections of magically cloaked stuff in the water.

[Santax]

I can't believe I missed this!


Gateway to the wondrous Basilica, the Grand Court overlooks the reflecting pool that gives the Mirror of Lyss its name. From here, one may ascend to the floating Sebelkeh Basilica itself, the most ornate and magical temple in Elona, and the heart of the Lyssan faith.