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Laken Cascade
20-07-2007, 23:46
After two months of trying this mission over and over and doing it today with a person who knows what is required i have come to the conclusion this mission is broken , the effect + two very powerful bosses + huge damaging enemys means the mission in my eyes is harder than probaly the new NM DOA

I have done TH with a purely hero and hench party with one other player
I have done Raisu with what was a pretty poor pug who couldn't agre eon anything but this mission takes me everytime rolls me up and spits me out and its due to two places:

Places

1: The torment claw portal , that claw + those wraiths + the spawn means you can be guaranteed a TPK if your not careful , and even when you are that section is the longest fight in the area , my question is why? why is that portal so much harder then the rest

2: Shiro, need i say more this guy has wiped my party more times then Tony Blair promises feel flat , and i can only give one reason why Shadowstep , the inability to manipulate Shiros postion combined with Impossible Odds , which you have no chocie but to break away from (yeah break away dumb henchies) means your guaranteed a party wipe as well

So what can be done about it well there 3 solutions in my eyes:

Solutions

1. Tone down the area effect better healing will counter the high damage

2.Remove the torment claw at the portal , theres no reason for it to be there except to wipe out the average PUG, taking an interrupt ranger means you lose damage for Shiro , not taking one means you run the risk of that one portal wiping you

3.Remove Shiros ability to Shadowstep or tone down Impossible Odds , there good skills for the Faction Final mission but here they crank up the difficulty stupidly, obviously Shiro should be a threat but not an guarantted killer against most partys

I know i will be slated for posting this poll and my thoughts but as ANEt has said if you have an issue post it on a forum so here i am posting

Laken Cascade
20-07-2007, 23:57
I'm all for voting and looking but constructive feedback is better for both me and ANET

Смерть
20-07-2007, 23:59
I think its fine how it is. Was able to master it in normal mode, and some guild members recently beat it in HM. Sometimes I find it a pain, but wouldn't want it to loose its name.

wingzro
21-07-2007, 00:00
I've done it on all 9 of my characters fine in normal mode, I don't bother with hard mode. Torment claw's slash skill only really harms what's directly in front of it, so when you see it activating and can't interrupt, just move behind it. The portals, most of the time you can pull them to you or away from patrols. Patrols in that area are easy enough to take on one at a time by pulling. The Lich can be taken out easier than Shiro since he doesn't do anything spectacular. I've taken out Shiro prior to picking up the shrines as most people suggest, spoil victor helps, as with against any boss. Wild blow helps against his battle scars stance. Basically use the same techniques you did before and you'll take them both down.

GrimShade
21-07-2007, 00:01
This mission is basically the end game mission. Abadon is too easy. As far as I am concerned it's a proper difficulty. You need to use tactics, and proper builds to make it through. If you don't figure out what you did wrong and adjust you don't make it through.

The mission is Henchable, just figure out what you are doing wrong and where you always die. You will need to spend more energy getting through this than the early ones. It's a challenge, rise to it.

If you want to make it through describe your team build and charicter builds, and we can help you. Also what points do you fail? We can annalyse what went wrong and work from there.

Garbaron
21-07-2007, 00:02
I too feel Shiro in combination with the Lich is a bit over powered. Especially if compared how ridiculously easy Abbadon can be beaten.

Imposible odds really is a near to guaranteed 50% party wipe-out. I lost count how many times my entire group got killed by Shiro because of him using this skill. And when thinking of how long it takes to get there (closing all the rifts) it really annoys me to get killed by this guy after being 20 mins into the mission. So yes.... toning down Shiro is called for! .

Lhun Duum
21-07-2007, 00:03
I stopped playing the game some months ago because I failed too much on
this mission. I tried with both heroes and PUG. Everytime I was able to reach the bosses only for Shiro to kill everyone.

Laken Cascade
21-07-2007, 00:09
Yes i know the mission is meant to be hard but its too hard the worrying thing is so far 75% seem to disagree , i do wonder how many may not want people reaching DOA , personally i wouldn't mind if they gave Shiro a whack as exaplined about that guy is a 50% GUARANTTED PARTY WIPE ,also the mission drains you so its hard to keep doing it on repeat especially when getting so close each time

aspboy
21-07-2007, 00:11
Hard mission for sure but not impossible, ive henched it for masters. While it is more challenging than Abaddon (maybe due to length), i think its acceptable. Afterall its near end game, not supposed to be easy.

Leonora Windleaf
21-07-2007, 00:13
So it's broken because you can't do it? hmm....

Anyway, I think it's fine at it is, with the right set-up and good co-ordination it is certainly do-able. I managed it twice in HM, and 4 of my chars are protectors of elona. I remember some of our guildies being able to do this with H/H. Maybe a check in forums or the wiki for tips. One tip against Shiro: Blinding him works nice, Spoil Victor will take him down ridiculously fast. Curses and Illusion Spells/Empathy are youre friend against him. And remember to keep moving when he's after you. Also, there is a nice trick to avoid the Shiro'ken at the gate where shiro will talk. Right Tactics will help you very much here.

EDIT: GoM is no-where near as hard as NM DoA. That area requires a very different and specific tactic. You are practically fighting ton's of shiros there ( ok not really, but I hope you get the point)

Zero
21-07-2007, 00:17
I'd say its fine, provided you hold aggro (and thats possible even with hero's and henchies) and stand at the "entrance" to the shrine area you can keep just shiro on you. Prot up and have a stance breaker (and some blocks/blinds) and its all good. Your then free to run around ignoring the lich.

Alternativley snare Shiro, kill the lich and go shrine capping, Hit shiro when you have all the bonuses and its easy enough. Just take your time there's no rush (unike factions missions ^_^ ).

Laken Cascade
21-07-2007, 00:20
So it's broken because you can't do it? hmm....

Anyway, I think it's fine at it is, [B]with the right set-up [/B}and good co-ordination it is certainly do-able. I managed it twice in HM, and 4 of my chars are protectors of elona. I remember some of our guildies being able to do this with H/H. Maybe a check in forums or the wiki for tips. One tip against Shiro: Blinding him works nice, Spoil Victor will take him down ridiculously fast. Curses and Illusion Spells/Empathy are youre friend against him. And remember to keep moving when he's after you. Also, there is a nice trick to avoid the Shiro'ken at the gate where shiro will talk. Right Tactics will help you very much here.

I know all the tips , pull the partys, take the bridge , wait and let the shiroken past , wipe the party that comes up the left near the spire , i know my tactics i'be done all of prophencies with henchies and one other human player

The factor is unless you use a certain make up you lose as you just rightly stated , the problem is this , this isn't an elite mission, changing a buid is good but when only a certain team set up with certain skills can beat a mission then what , also an player cna only have 3 heroes so he can't make all his member shave the skills he wnats

This is the flaw

Roi
21-07-2007, 00:21
Madness isn't very hard at all in my opinion, though Shiro can be a bother sometimes. The mission is just long and it requires a little more than simply rushing in with the leet build you found on wiki. :rolleyes:

No, I don't think I needs a nerf. I feel the difficulty level is very fitting considering it is the last mission in Nightfall (becuase we all know Abaddon's Gate is little more than a formality)

Scutilla
21-07-2007, 00:23
I agree that Shiro is troublesome in that he requires a certain setup to kill effectively, but other than that the mission's difficulty is fine- hard enough to be worthy of the final (non-boss) mission, but not hard enough to require a human group or prevent lesser players from getting through it. If you really have a problem with having to tailor your team to fit your opponents... I don't really know what to say to you :undecided:

As for the Torment Claw at the portal, I find it to rarely cause a problem. Pull everything but the Portal Wraiths away to kill them, then when you move in kill the Claw first. The Claw will likely hit a few characters with heavy damage, and if the Wraiths get lucky they might finish someone off, but it's not too difficult to recover.

If you're having trouble with Shiro, here's how to beat him (tweak as necessary for your profession and your hero selection). These obviously aren't hard-and-fast builds, other setups could work, it's just what I've found to be most efficient in my own experience.


One warrior with Wild Blow (a dervish or assassin with the same also works, though a warrior can take Shiro's hits the best)
An elementalist nuker (fire with Searing Flames seems to work best, but air also works well)
A curse necromancer with the standard anti-melee hexes- Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, etc.
A blood necromancer with Spoil Victor, Blood Ritual, Order of Pain, and damaging blood skills
A paragon with defensive Command/Leadership shouts (They're On Fire synergizes well with the SF ele)
A standard healing monk
A standard protection monk (focus on blocking enchantments and Protective Spirit)
Free slot of your choice (I recommend an anti-warrior mesmer, a second melee character, or another damage dealer)

The only other key thing to remember is that he throws your conditions back at you, so it's a bad idea to bring condition-causing skills (other than very short ones like SF's burning). Bring equivalent hexes, like Blurred Vision instead of blind.

If you can get a friend and set up your six heroes like this, they can easily take down Shiro this way with little micromanagement. If you're doing it yourself, take the warrior and two necros and bring Mhenlo, Khim, Cynn or Herta, and Sogolon.

Aries De Lyle
21-07-2007, 00:23
I finished the Normal Mode mission with this build (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456112) and a monk hero - Tahlkora - as prot to reduce the spike damage aka Lich's wands lol. The regen really helps relieve so much pressure and the party heals are great.

Impossible Odds wasn't much of a problem with the party regen and Ballad of Restoration. Since I doubt you're a Paragon and Morgahn can't use TNtF you can probably use SF heroes and They're on Fire :p

Bezimienny
21-07-2007, 00:24
The mission is actually quite easy if you prepare for it. Lich dies so fast it's not even funny. Shiro is tricky, but it takes only 3 skills to defeat him: Wild Blow, SS(or SV) and Empathy. Anti-melee Hex Necro/Mesmer is very useful here.

VelyoAtanas
21-07-2007, 00:25
Yes i know the mission is meant to be hard but its too hard the worrying thing is so far 75% seem to disagree , i do wonder how many may not want people reaching DOA , personally i wouldn't mind if they gave Shiro a whack as exaplined about that guy is a 50% GUARANTTED PARTY WIPE ,also the mission drains you so its hard to keep doing it on repeat especially when getting so close each time

Errr... no.

Make sure you've got stance cancels, and don't use anything on Shiro that causes conditions.

He has devastatingly powerful skills and can nail your entire party, if you let him. Don't let him.

Quite honestly mate if you're strugling with dealing with the mission prior to him you maybe need to re-evaluate your tactics, there's nothing challenging in there until you get to Shiro and the Lich, it's standard PvE "move forward, pull mob, kill mob, move forward..." all the way.

N H A
21-07-2007, 00:26
Even doing it with people who have the strategy down we wipe out too often. Truth is that it's almost two missions and that jamming them together makes it too difficult. You are dead on about sticky spots.

I have patientce, stick-to-it-ness, but I just want to spit at how often I've failed even with groups that I know are doing everything right. We run a tight little commando group and I've seen us bite it way too often for good players. Something is wrong with how it stacks up or in the duration of the mission. I'm wringing out my socks by the time I die so it's beyond the normal end game level even.

Talon one
21-07-2007, 00:26
i usualy bring a warrior with 'you're all alone' and wild blow,
a paragon with wild throw (because koss can be a bit slow on stance removal)
a necro with spiteful spirit

with those skills, the mission can easily be henched - but without stance removal for impossible odds, it becomes insanely hard.
i agree that the mission is almost too hard for normal players, but the frustration of losing the final battle a few times can easily be made up for once you actually win. it encourages players to seek help, join guilds and join fan forums/lookup wiki :p

Laken Cascade
21-07-2007, 00:30
Errr... no.

Make sure you've got stance cancels, and don't use anything on Shiro that causes conditions.

He has devastatingly powerful skills and can nail your entire party, if you let him. Don't let him.

Quite honestly mate if you're strugling with dealing with the mission prior to him you maybe need to re-evaluate your tactics, there's nothing challenging in there until you get to Shiro and the Lich, it's standard PvE "move forward, pull mob, kill mob, move forward..." all the way.

I struggle at the two points mentioned , thats it , they always seem to be the two palces that wipe me , other then that yeah the mission is easy i breeze it now until those two points

MisterB
21-07-2007, 00:30
This mission is fine. I hero/henched it with Master's in Normal my first time through. You do have to be careful; this is basically the final mission, and it should be hard. This mission has been toned down; Shiro does not have Meditation of the Reaper nor Echoing Banishment. To address your specific problem areas:

1: The Torment Claw portal is harder than the rest because it is the final portal, and thus, the most heavily guarded. Focus fire and prioritize targets correctly, and it's no problem if you're careful.

2. Shiro & the Lich: I find it easier to kill Shiro first, and then cap all the shrines.
The best method I found was to individually flag heroes in a semi-circle outside of the door. Shiro won't walk very far outside the door, and if you position your heroes just slightly out of spell range from the door, he will attack less because he walks back and forth. Spoil Victor and Spiteful Spirit rip him to pieces, especially if you also have a MM. Test builds in Imperial Sanctum with no Celestial skills if you are having trouble.

GreatBabai
21-07-2007, 00:32
Its very easy mission actually. Especially for end-game area. Instead of toning down it needs some more challenge imho.

The Dark Sisterhood
21-07-2007, 00:34
I must admit to making a pigs ear out of it the first time I attempted it (I killed the Lich and Shiro before capping the Shrines), but you live and learn and the eight times I have played it since has been a walk in the park.

Use your Lightbringers Gaze to interrupt Torment Claws, flag your Heroes/Henchmen well away from the Portals and carefully pull the patrols towards them, send in a Warrior first or make sure you have buffs on before you hit the Wraiths

Pull Shiro into the doorway and use a Warrior Hero to aggro him, equip the Hero with Wild Blow, use skills such as Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, Spitefull Spirit, Empathy, Spoil Victor etc, to kill him.

Run around and take the Shrines while ignoring the Lich, position yourself towards the back away from the stairs and the Lich will stop following, although he may take out the odd Hero if you are unlucky, when you have taken all the shrines, kill the Lich, which should be no problem.

Once you know what to do, it is easy and you will kick yourself for ever thinking it was hard.

Just wait until you try to Vanquish the Poisoned Outcrops using Heroes in Hard Mode, then you will know the real meaning of difficult.

I still haven't worked out a build that could take out Droajam, Mage of the Sands and three Sandstorm Crags, as well as doing the rest of the area, some of the groups can kill a party in seconds if they have DP.

I had to cheat in the end and bring Candy Canes :embarassed:

Also, why do Heroes that don't need line of sight insist on moving out of the protection of the terrain and stand in direct line of fire, especiall when Rangers are using Choking Gas and Debilitating Shot, it drives you mad!!!!

english storm
21-07-2007, 00:38
it's not very hard at all if you know what you are doing bring 1 warrior and 1 necromance hero, give your warrior bonnets deffence and glads then flag your warrior hench at the entrance and make sure shiro only attacks him. As long as your other heroes and henchies are out of aggro range but within range to heal your warrior hero, shiro will die very very quickly without any threat (SS or SV on necro). You don't even need glads really just disable all his skills apart from bonnets and he will generate enough adrenalin to keep bonnets on all the time.

With a 75% block rate all the time shiro doesn't stand a chance no other skills are needed :) IF your still stuck pm in game and i will help you complete the mission.

Ate of DK
21-07-2007, 00:39
Did this mission with 2 characters in Hard Mode with Heroes.
Not a big deal if you ask me.

If you reach the end then just kill the Lich fast (stand next to him when he's still talking) and when he's dead you start running around and don't ever attack Shiro before you have capped all altars.

I voted /no.
Game is easy as it is allready.

CarbonBasedLifeform
21-07-2007, 00:42
I've done it with Hero/Henchmen with all 9 of my characters. ME + hench/heroes. Sucessful everytime.

tips:
- kill shiro first
- learn how to pull (my god...)
- learn how to proritize tragets (jees x2...)
- learn the shortcut across the cavern with the Titan abominations
- learn to bring a hex removal (expel hexes)
- no aoe dmg, at all: all kinds
- focus fire
- learn how to flag your heroes
- NEVER set them on Offensive mode, they will aggro everything, set them to defensive
- necro is your friend, SS mostly, SV is just extra
- dedicated tank hero (koss)
- reccomended henchmen: menhlo, khim, aiden, eve (battery)
- spam Lightbringer's Gaze as soon as it recharges, interrupt is your friend
- LB 2 level is enough

:listen: :listen: :listen: :listen:

Kayleen Ajzurion
21-07-2007, 00:44
Ok, I've finished Nightfall 4 times and I've never had any trouble with this mission. And I PuGed too *gasp* :shocked:

Is it because I got really lucky? I mean, people thought THK was hard too(before heroes that is) and I never had any trouble with that one too. I must be really lucky with PuGs... :smiley:

I played this mission as an ele, a rit, a monk and a necro, no problem at all. The beginning is easy, the portals aren't too ahrd, just don't over-aggro. Lich and Shiro aren't hard. Just kill the Lich fast, bring a blind or somethign to take care of Shiro while you activate the altars and that wraps it up. Could you specify which passes you're having trouble with?

Kay

english storm
21-07-2007, 00:49
I've done it with Hero/Henchmen with all 9 of my characters. ME + hench/heroes. Sucessful everytime.

tips:
- kill shiro first
- learn how to pull (my god...)
- learn how to proritize tragets (jees x2...)
- learn the shortcut across the cavern with the Titan abominations
- learn to bring a hex removal (expel hexes)
- no aoe dmg, at all: all kinds
- focus fire
- learn how to flag your heroes
- NEVER set them on Offensive mode, they will aggro everything, set them to defensive
- necro is your friend, SS mostly, SV is just extra
- dedicated tank hero (koss)
- reccomended henchmen: menhlo, khim, aiden, eve (battery)
- spam Lightbringer's Gaze as soon as it recharges, interrupt is your friend
- LB 2 level is enough

:listen: :listen: :listen: :listen:

Shiro should be left till last, hex removal is not need at all just bring 2 healing hench they are more then enough. AoE doesn't really matter one bit in normal mode and i didn't even bother taking LB with me but it would help if your really stuck. As for the dedicated stance tank it's not needed just chuck bonnets defence on your bar, just that one skill does the trick...

ajd
21-07-2007, 00:57
One of the easiest missions imo.

Just kill the lich and take out the temples then kill shiro.

Also, do not over agro...

Fay Vert
21-07-2007, 00:57
Yep, tone it down a bit, it's just a massive frustration for normal players. Shiro is just a bit too silly. I think they should make the avatars harder to obtain, but more effective when you do.

the ettins kiss
21-07-2007, 00:58
some tips.
1 do the portals counter clockwise, make sure you make nice distanced pulls.
2 never stand in melee range with a torment claw, 1 nuke should be able to kill it with ease, flag melee hench away from torment claw or be sure to interrupt its skill.
3 Shiro or the Lich can be pulled seperately, hopefully Shiro first, cuz the lich is very nasty once shiro has died. the trick is party waits behind entrance, 1 player pulls as soon as shiro or lich move that player should lure one of them in by trying to balance the edge of aggro.
4 unless you are a tank all players should evade shiro at all cost.
5 never move into the gates when both shiro and the lich are alive, if shiro manages to kill part of your team, pull back, he will not follow far outside of the gate.
6 shiro or the lich will barely regenerate so take your time to regenerate
7 once either shiro or the lich are killed move in to wipe the shrines, use one or two players, preferrably a tank to keep the remaining boss busy
8 together with all the skills mentioned by others it would seem pretty failsafe to me.

Given the fact that you seem to primarily pug it, try to find pugs that intend to do bonus, people going for bonus are often more experienced players, and its not like the bonus makes it harder to finish the mission.
In case you plan to hench, try to flag the monks and casters out of shiro's maximum reach, try to spread up H+H as much as possible to minimize impossible odds damage.
I wish you the best of luck.

N H A
21-07-2007, 00:58
thanks to those who left constructive ideas, I've recorded most and will have ample opportunity to test them out (those I haven't used so far of course - Ihave some in my bag of tricks already). I bet I still feel like dish linen gone through antique clothes washer ringer through. ;)

Fossa
21-07-2007, 00:59
Not too hard mission considering I have all 3 chapters and can actually use Spiteful Spirit or Spoil Victor. I wonder how it goes for a Nightfall only person with heroes + hench though....

jciardha
21-07-2007, 01:00
AOE damage can be a bad thing in the Realm of Torment, as it can trigger Call to Torment in multiple demons at the same time. Not always, but I have had it happen on me.

Toxic J
21-07-2007, 01:02
As with all the missions out there, bringing the right setup makes it a walk in the park. If you're stuck somewhere the best you can do is visit sites and read up on walkthroughs of those specific missions.

PulseReaction
21-07-2007, 01:09
Well, I pugged this mission with 5 other dervishes, a.k.a. the outcasts who couldnt get any group. We managed to pull carefully and did not overaggro.

However, i'm all in favor of a Shiro nerf - he is just too powerful.

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 01:15
Im not sure how differcult this mission really is with PuG's having always done it with heroes and henchies and gotten master reward everytime, my advice is take the ranger hero equip her with broad head arrow, epidemic and winter (used agaisnt portal wraiths and sorcerers), take a necro hero and set them up as MM jagged bones bomber and a warrior type with wild blow for the endpart.

Unlike The Dark Sisterhood I target the Lich first as long as everyone is attacking him Shiro isn't going to do you no harm so you can kill him with no problem, then I flag my heroes to the shrines kill the Margonites in each completly ignoring Shiro to recieve the blessings, Olias usually raises minions for Shiro to take care of while I do this, once I recieved all the blessing it's time to take out Shiro.:wink:


Surprisingly Zenmai did really well, I had to chose her because I didn't have many skills unlocked for the dervish or warrior on that account, but i'm glad I did as it was pretty smooth and only incurred 1 death during the mission
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6821/gw332nn7.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3209/gw198cm5.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1973/gw186gw0.jpg

Ora
21-07-2007, 01:18
I still haven't worked out a build that could take out Droajam, Mage of the Sands and three Sandstorm Crags, as well as doing the rest of the area, some of the groups can kill a party in seconds if they have DP.

I had to cheat in the end and bring Candy Canes :embarassed:




hehe, I hear you...actually exp scrolls, some planning ahead, headbutt/plague touch and sentinels armor on my warrior + my usual h/h (Razah, Olias, Master, Mhenlo, Khim, Hertha and Sogolon) did the trick.
That was, before the PvE only skills were released. With "save yourselves" it should be a lot easier now.

Kill 1st craig, use exp scroll, kill some margos, rebuild minions, kill second craig...

Razma Dreizehn
21-07-2007, 01:27
The mission is fine. I solo tanked Shiro with ShoD while Razah accidentally killed him so fast that we didn't have a chance to activate all the shrines for bonus and had to start over. It was HM by the way.

Isk8
21-07-2007, 01:53
The only real problem we ever have with this mission is Shiro at the end. Usually the way I play this mission out with guildies is...

1) Pull Lich, at least enough so he can get killed by the group.

2) I play a prot monk, so my job is to hold shiro... Prot spirit + SoA + Pacifism.

3) With the Lich dead... the remaining 7 of the team go activate the shrines.

4) With all the shrines active, I stop holding Shiro and let the tanks take over.

Now THIS is where he gets rediculous... We've all seen his Battle Scars from Factions, we can deal with that... 1 good placed wild blow. But his skill Impossible Odds is just plain rediculous. He can wipe out ANYONE with this skill in no time flat. and the fact that this skill lasts twice as long as its recharge... COME ON! He double strikes everyone, has a built in plauge touch feature, and can remove hexes upon its activation... oh ... and his skills cant be disabled. So even if you are lucky enough to interrupt that skill, guess what, its coming right back at you in 5 seconds.

An all guild and alliance group took 2 HOURS fighting JUST SHIRO one time. most of us at 60dp... with all the shrine bonus's... I had tanks that were getting killed by impossible odds even with prot spirit + SoA + Seed of Life on them.

This is the only portion of this mission that needs a look at by the dev team.

Spaminator
21-07-2007, 01:54
It's hard the first times, but now I just rush through it, even with H/H...

The Dark Sisterhood
21-07-2007, 02:12
hehe, I hear you...actually exp scrolls, some planning ahead, headbutt/plague touch and sentinels armor on my warrior + my usual h/h (Razah, Olias, Master, Mhenlo, Khim, Hertha and Sogolon) did the trick.
That was, before the PvE only skills were released. With "save yourselves" it should be a lot easier now.

Kill 1st craig, use exp scroll, kill some margos, rebuild minions, kill second craig...

I very nearly did it with my first attempt, I only had to face Droajarn and one other Crag that time, I used Norgu with Arcane Conundrum, Migraine and a few interrupts.

I killed the group with ease and even had a 4% Morale Boost, then, with only three groups to go, it all went horribly wrong and soon I found myself back in the Outpost.

Nothing ever seemed to go right after that and I seemed to get realy bad spawns all the time, one even consisted of three Cavaliers, two Acolytes and a Carver.

I was to say, slightly miffed by this stage, especially as it was the last area of the Desolation I needed to do and only Joko's Domain had not been completed on the first attempt.

Even though I eventually finished it, I wouldn't exactly call it a success as I used Candy Canes, but if I had tried once more I might have got better spawns and done it with ease, maybe I will try again one day.........

Still, looking on the bright side, I started using skills and Heroes that I hadn't used much before, I've hardly raised a Minion in days!!

BunnyLord
21-07-2007, 02:24
I think the only thing I want to be toned down in GoM is Shiro. He needs to much Hex work to kill.

Chackan
21-07-2007, 02:25
Only Shiro gave me a hard time, the rest of the mission i found it easy :S

kojikeri
21-07-2007, 02:29
I voted Yes.

Since HM is available, those who love the challenge can be satisfied in that mode. There's nothing worse than making the game frustrating for the common man.

I hope this helps you guys.

Ora
21-07-2007, 02:52
Still, looking on the bright side, I started using skills and Heroes that I hadn't used much before, I've hardly raised a Minion in days!!

I almost always take an MM hero when vanquishing. (and exp scrolls against the dp, cc's don't lower the dp of the h/h...:wink: )
Minions have a slower reaction than their master, so when used correctly, you can literally make the mobs chasing you run into a bone wall...
(Flag your MM and when you have aggro and fall back, flag the MM back, the minions will still attack...)

Tyus Hoc
21-07-2007, 03:12
Personally I had no problem with it at all. But that was normal mode, have not tried hard mode. I say keep it as is. First time I ran around to get the portals, killed Shiro so fast and thought, "that's it?" Must have been lucky. That was with my Necro. Other chars had a bit more problem, but not by much. The only thing is, if you fail- if Shiro kills you- it is such a loooong mission to redo imo.

I just run from portal to portal to get the god powers. I ignore Shiro attacking. On top of that, I find if you go as far to the back as you can at each portal, Shiro backs off and goes back to the centre. This is while my team waits to take over the portal (or get our energy back up if needed) after we kill the margonites.

The Dark Sisterhood
21-07-2007, 03:28
I almost always take an MM hero when vanquishing. (and exp scrolls against the dp, cc's don't lower the dp of the h/h...:wink: )
Minions have a slower reaction than their master, so when used correctly, you can literally make the mobs chasing you run into a bone wall...
(Flag your MM and when you have aggro and fall back, flag the MM back, the minions will still attack...)

Yes, I used a MM for most of HM, Olias to start with and more recently Razah (with Explosive Growth and Signet of Creation/Death Nova)

I stoppped using a MM when I did The Hidden City of Ahdashim, due to the lack of bodies and since then I just haven't bothered with either my usual MM or SS Necros and have replaced them with a Paragon and an old school Meteor Shower Elementalist.

Oh, I was using Rainbow Candy Canes BTW, they remove DP from Heroes.

dopple
21-07-2007, 03:45
1: The torment claw portal , that claw + those wraiths + the spawn means you can be guaranteed a TPK if your not careful , and even when you are that section is the longest fight in the area , my question is why? why is that portal so much harder then the rest

Very simple aggro management will get you through that portal. First, aggro the patrols (the titans particularly) and destroy them. But dont aggro the few patrolling creatures that are tied to the portal in question. Then get on high ground near the portal and lure the portal wraiths to you. Destroy them. If necessary, retreat, recover and repeat on remaining(s) portal wraith(s). You dont even have to approach the torment claw.

I have seen a lot of people who dont have a clue how to deal with the portals in general. They attack the patrol tied to the portal and waste their energies on that patrol, then attack the portal wraiths and meanwhile the patrol does respawn and joins the fight. Instead, time yourself to attack the portal wraiths just after the patrol has left the portal. Unleash all your power on the wraiths, they wont last long. The patrol will eventually come back and join the fight, ignore them until the 3 wraiths are down.



2: Shiro, need i say more this guy has wiped my party more times then Tony Blair promises feel flat , and i can only give one reason why Shadowstep , the inability to manipulate Shiros postion combined with Impossible Odds , which you have no chocie but to break away from (yeah break away dumb henchies) means your guaranteed a party wipe as well


Shiro is very doable with just hench heroes, but you must effectively know how to do it. It can be very frustrating for people who dont use wiki. I dont bother capturing the shrines at all. Like so many, I position a tank at the doorway to the shrines region and all others spread out and away from the doorway so that Shiro/Lich wont go attack them. Make sure the tank has got Wildblow. Bring lots of hexes that make Shiro miss attacks (reckless haste, spirit of failure, price of failure) and some hexes that damage per attacks (Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Spoil Victor).

The positioning of your hench/heroes is crucial. Position the tank sligthly away from the doorway so that he wont go farther than the doorway when he aggros Shiro and moves toward him. You want them to fight pretty much at the doorway. Position and spread the rest so they are in casting range of the doorway. Kill the lich first, and then Shiro.

NameAlreadyInUse
21-07-2007, 03:53
Yep, going to have to vote no here.

This is certainly not the easiest mission out there, but its very henchable. More so, certainly, than the endgame mission of, say, Prophecies.

Anyway, here are the tactics and tricks I've used to get through this mission with hero/hench in the past:

Prep work: make sure you're going into the mission with two things above all, somebody who can cast Spiteful Spirit at a decent level (I gave it to Dunkoro actually), and a stance breaker (I've used Koss in the past, but General Morgan works too).

Shiro'ken Ambush: Just rush the door as soon as it opens and fight the spawns on that far side of the door. The spawns on the other side (the one you came in on) will never get into your aggro circle and can be ignored.

Portal Wraiths: Go counter-clockwise around the room taking on the wraiths. Wait for the spawns with them to start their patrols. You'll get a couple adds to your fights here and there, but it wont be too bad. When you hit the last portal (with the claw) just try to pull as many of the patrol groups away as you can one at a time. The big one is to try pulling the Titans so you're not trying to fight them with everything else, that can get out of hand fast. Use LB Gaze for the mass interrupt effect and extra aoe damage. Remember, this isn't Factions, you're not being timed here, take it slow and you should be okay.

Shiro/Lich: Take out the Lich first, as soon as he becomes targetable. Ignore Shiro totally. He won't do any real damage to anyone as long as you're not fighting him. Just have you and your team run from shrine to shrine and cap everything. Once you've done that hit shiro with SS and just wail away. Once he gets to about 50% health he'll start to spam Impossible Odds and his other big damage/self heal skill. These are both stances so just manually have your hero spam wild blow/throw while everyone else lays into him with all they have. He drops fast without those stances.

Hope that helps a bit. Nothing others haven't posted in one way or another in this thread (and others) before I suppose, but I needed something to do while trying to get into the GW store for the PRP...

Dallcingi
21-07-2007, 04:13
I did this with my guildie 2 days ago and he knew what to do as well and we did fine... died a bit but still masters.

AlmightyBoris
21-07-2007, 05:34
I agree that this mission is very hard. Hardest of NF IMO. However, I don't think it needs to be toned down. It is true that you cannot do this with any build you want. But there are several builds that work to beat Shiro. Blind him, slow him with water magic, and SS/SV and empathy as mentioned already. Personally I didn't use any tank against him, so even that is not necessary. Also, getting the shrines makes it so much easier - masters is easier than standard IMO.

yakslappin
21-07-2007, 05:38
I dont think that this mis bieng hard is what bothers me.. its that it is much harder than defeating a god in the next mission.. I think they should buff abaddon, or yes, weaken this mission.

Kaya Ke Kitana
21-07-2007, 05:40
Alternative : I(rit)set up spirits divided all over the place, for some reason Shiro doesn't like them and keeps on going after them first so he's busy then.

Voted no, as with my spoil vic nec he was also real quiet.

kojikeri
21-07-2007, 06:01
Alternative : I(rit)set up spirits divided all over the place, for some reason Shiro doesn't like them and keeps on going after them first so he's busy then.


That's not just Shiro, it's a common AI behavior in the the entire game.

Egal
21-07-2007, 06:48
I know all the tips , pull the partys, take the bridge , wait and let the shiroken past , wipe the party that comes up the left near the spire , i know my tactics i'be done all of prophencies with henchies and one other human player

The factor is unless you use a certain make up you lose as you just rightly stated , the problem is this , this isn't an elite mission, changing a buid is good but when only a certain team set up with certain skills can beat a mission then what , also an player cna only have 3 heroes so he can't make all his member shave the skills he wnats

This is the flaw

There's plenty of advice on offer here, and anyway, you say you don't want or need it so I'll simply answer the original question posed. No.

After having mastered this on my Dervish I was really looking forward to doing this right with my main, my Mesmer. This is how I did it: Fast cast Barbs Mesmer (me) MM Olias, Barrage Margrid, VoS Melonni, melee hench, Sogolon and Kihm. Don't remember where I'd been playing with this set-up, not Torment though. I was tired, half-drunk and, as ever, just a pretty average GW player.

Killed Shiro at the door without bothering to cap the shrines (breaking my own "rules" for the mission) and finished off the Lich in about 5 seconds flat after the shrine capping.

I used to really like GoM because it's a make or break mission for an average player like myself. I was really looking forward to doing this with my Mesmer having planned exactly how I was goin to play it. Then ended up doing it as stated above when I thought I'd just have a quick try-out of the new Normal Mode, late on a Sunday night, having played Hard Mode all weekend. When I fired up my Mesmer, I happened to be at GoM so in I went.

Just wanted to try it out, was never intending to do the mission properly, otherwise I would have changed my build and group set-up. Figured I'd wipe before too long, log off and go to bed. But I just kept going and going...

None of the must-have skills, minions and Barrage to encourage Call of the Torment and both weak against Shiro himself. But it worked.

You want Gate of Madness toned down. Sadly, I think the new Normal Mode has already neutered this mission.

Saucermote
21-07-2007, 06:56
I voted yes, entirely for shiro. The normal player, especially one that just has nightfall, is going to be overwhelmed, and reading an unofficial site for a build/strategy really shouldn't be required. Sure after a few tries, you may figure out what skills you need to take to counter, but a lot of the useful skills seem to come from the other chapters. Normal mode shouldn't cause frustration to the point where players want to give up, save that for hard mode.

Obviously there are enough players having trouble, and a few that are very comfortable, that runs through this mission have been going for 10-15k depending on masters.

Lord Helmos
21-07-2007, 07:01
No this mission is cake, if you are REALLY stuck on it contact me at

IGN: Xarcena Amaris

I believe I can get anyone through it, just as long as they dont super aggro.

Its so easy with a PARTY SUPPORT PARAGON, which can be found on wiki. Just drop "Shield's Up!" for wild throw and gg.

TheSonofDarwin
21-07-2007, 07:09
No. Learn his skills, strategize. This is perhaps the only mission where you can't just 1-8 on the keypad.

1) Lich first.
2) Obtain all shrines, don't attack Shiro along the way.
3) Run back to entrance to temple, regen.
4) Make your tank block the gate, casters shouldn't be wanding him unless you like him teleporting and pwning you.
5) Spread your heroes out, and place the rest of your hench at a location different from the others that way you don't have a party wipe if things go wrong.
6) Norgu with a fast cast rez makes recoveries easy.
7) Skill your heroes appropriately - just a random conglomeration of skills isn't go to work so well - It never should!
8) Learn, relearn, and learn again flagging and skill combination.

I do understand this mission is difficult, I failed it quite a few times till a learned what worked and what didn't. If I failed I didn't go full speed with the same builds as I failed with. If I failed I analyzed WHY I failed (party bunched up for impossible odds?). As it is essentially the endgame mission, it should be difficult. I don't find it any more difficult than Raisu.

If you fail: Ask yourself, "Why?" Follow that up with "Then maybe I should have done, X, Y, and Z differently" If all else fails, take a look at tips on wiki.

PuppyEater
21-07-2007, 07:57
While I do agree that Shiro is only really a threat when your activly trying to kill him (I tanked him with my ranger useing just Natural Stride and Trolls), the high chance of a party wipe is just too high for such a long mission...

satomz
21-07-2007, 08:35
Torment claw does no damage if you stay away from it. You must have been punching it in the face. That'd gotta get you killed.

If you can't seem to negate damage for impossible odds, flag your people apart, so that Shiro only hits so many targets at once. Notice most anti-melee can shut him down. Blind does wonders while you cap the shrines. If you don't want blind on yourself during impossible odds, use blurred vision. Empathy, SS, SV, Spi of Failure, whatnot do wonders at all times. There are three professions that can knock stances out: use them. There are tons of damage reduction skills around: use them.

First time I played through was with my para and a dervish. It took us about 3 tries to beat the mission, and we are by no means super experts. It might be hard, but it's not outrageous: it's fine.

By the way, if you give us more specifics (profession, what you are having trouble with, etc), you get better advices.

Empraim Wainwright
21-07-2007, 08:51
This mission is basically the end game mission. Abadon is too easy. As far as I am concerned it's a proper difficulty. You need to use tactics, and proper builds to make it through. If you don't figure out what you did wrong and adjust you don't make it through.

The mission is Henchable, just figure out what you are doing wrong and where you always die. You will need to spend more energy getting through this than the early ones. It's a challenge, rise to it.

If you want to make it through describe your team build and charicter builds, and we can help you. Also what points do you fail? We can annalyse what went wrong and work from there.

GrimShade said it better than I could at this hour

mornd
21-07-2007, 09:19
If THK was considered hard in the early days for 1st time players, then gate of madness should be considered hard as well, even with heros. I am undecided because while NM GOM may be considered ok to experienced players, it may be too hard for people who started in elonia using their 1st character.

Stop saying its very easy and spare more thoughts for those with less experiences, else never ever call another player elitist again.

Nanashi
21-07-2007, 09:22
It's Shiro mainly who makes this mission so difficult but mainly anti melee have this mission beat. I just spammed conditions while popping off AoD when ever he did his loop-de-loop

Mirrr
21-07-2007, 09:30
I voted no. Why? Because this mission is easy. NM or HM... it doesn't matter.

You DON'T need things such as:
- Wild Blow
- fire nuker
- MM
Also anti melee hexes aren't necessary but they are useful.

Torment claws are the problem? Ever heard of ranged attacks? No? Shiro is the problem? Ranged attacks again?
Why is it so hard to give up your beloved wahmmo build and try something new for a change? If you have problems with this mission so why you wanna go to DoA? You think its easier? Or maybe it should be toned down again? If you tried to beat this mission few times you should know spawn spots and patrol routes.
This mission is great because it shows that people should really change TACTICS sometimes.
After all... PvE is always about knowing AI and way around it.

CPPK
21-07-2007, 09:50
I think that the mission as a whole is tough, but once you know how its quite simple to get all the way through to the Lich and SHiro. My only quarrel is that Shiro is a complete ***** to take down without the right build/party. Thats really the only part that I found too hard. SHIRO!!!

Rurik Bacon
21-07-2007, 09:58
I voted yes, only bcoz of Shiro. And how bringing ONE skill can unrealistically improve your odds of pwning him.

Ditto for the factions' version of Shiro. You either thrash him really badly or endure the pain of getting thrashed after a prolong fight.

[Edit]


I voted no. Why? Because this mission is easy. NM or HM... it doesn't matter.

You DON'T need things such as:
- Wild Blow
- fire nuker
- MM
Also anti melee hexes aren't necessary but they are useful.

Torment claws are the problem? Ever heard of ranged attacks? No? Shiro is the problem? Ranged attacks again?
Why is it so hard to give up your beloved wahmmo build and try something new for a change? If you have problems with this mission so why you wanna go to DoA? You think its easier? Or maybe it should be toned down again? If you tried to beat this mission few times you should know spawn spots and patrol routes.
This mission is great because it shows that people should really change TACTICS sometimes.
After all... PvE is always about knowing AI and way around it.

The way I see it, Shiro is the anti-tactics. Sure, you do not need a specific skill/skill set to defeat him, but bringing it drastically reduce the effort needed.

Hiero
21-07-2007, 10:04
I think the mission is fine...

SepticFlesh
21-07-2007, 10:24
No.

I really dont think this mission is that hard to be honest. I managed to do it on my second try with H+H and only failed the 1st time cause my whole party got body blocked against a wall by those shiroken near the start. I just took a melee heavy team equipped with a couple of interrupts and just dominated. I had no troubles with the portal bit and when it came to defeating shiro and the lich I just killed the lich and then ran round and capped all of the shrines then just dominated shiro.

Also this was before they brought out easy mode....

madape
21-07-2007, 10:28
It's hard indeed, but not to hard and certainly not as hard as NM DoA. I never had problems at the portal with the Torment Claw and although I agree Shiro is overpowered he is beatable and not the only overpowered enemy in the game. Sorry but I don't feel like this HAS to be altered, /notsigned.

-Ape

oakwine
21-07-2007, 10:34
Henched it, done it with friends, sure failed a lot at first, but you eventually get it.

Big Secret of Success: Look up the mission on Guildwiki and learn how to take down Shiro.

zyonuf
21-07-2007, 10:41
Some things in the game are way easy and some are hard. This makes the game worth playing...

Orinn
21-07-2007, 10:54
Is it hard? Not really, if you know how. However, it's a longish mission, with a VERY good chance of a party wipe unless someone has outside knowledge. It's frustrating failing a mission over and over again, and Shiro's impossible odds is completely absurd.

I've run friends through it. I make them dro their heroes, and take my own heroes and henchies that i can flag. The portals take good pulling and positioning, nothing too hard. The lich is still a joke, and as long as I can flag the NPC's, Shiro isn't tough.

Here's the thing: I KNOW how to beat him. For players taht don't already know they can beat him, it's a much more difficult fight, making a teamwipe frustrating because often people don't quite understand what happened that they were winning, and then all of the sudden, in literally seconds, they all die.

Reading the wiki, or forums here, shouldn't be a prerequisite for success for the average player, because the average player doesn't read the wiki or the forums. I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but failure can happen so rapidly, that there is no way to learn from the fight itself, and people have to rely on outside information to get it right.

ailar
21-07-2007, 11:08
Hmm, as it happens I tried this mission yesterday for the very first time, with an all-Hero/Henchmen team. And I didn't even bother adjusting my skillsets or my Heroes' templates, I just wanted a quick look of what to expect.

It's not easy, I'd even say it's a pain in some places, but I still made it right to then end. Where I failed was in killing Shiro, and that's just something I have to be prepared for next time (bring Spoil Victor, for example). Apart from that, I would have succeeded on first try, with no previous experience at all, and even mastered it.

And since I'm hardly what you'd call a powergamer, I'd say that makes it just fine :)
(not that I look forward to spending an hour again getting to the final fight, but it IS an end-game mission and is supposed to be long and difficult)

Milennin
21-07-2007, 11:30
No, it's prefectly fine. It's H/H-able in both Normal and Hard Mode if you know the enemy's weakness.
Always read descriptions of Monster skills to see what they do. Remember what they do, and if possible bring a skill to counter/avoid them on your own or your Hero's skillbar.
If you need help with the mission or beating Shiro, you could just ask for some tips on it in the mission outpost, there's usually people willing to give some advice on it.
Shiro is easy if you have a Warrior with Wild Blow tanking Shiro, while the spellcasters spread out around him, and bring down his health. Don't inflict any conditions on Shiro once he gets under 50% HP because he'll spread them to your party with Impossible Odds.
The only thing the Tank will have to do is tank Shiro, maybe use "Watch Yourself!" and use Wild Blow immediately after Shiro activates Battle Scars.

Mr Tickle
21-07-2007, 11:35
I've done this with heroes & henchies. I set up master of whispers as spoil victor while I as necro was spiteful spirit. Zhed (earth) & Tahlkora.

I piled through down to the Lich and killed him first totally ignoring Shiro. Once the lich was dead we then went to cap the portals still ignoring shiro. When all the portals were down we then went back to the gate to fight shiro.

This tactic worked for me and I managed to get masters... however I remember when NF first came out when there was no help on the wiki. I tried for 2 weeks with different PUGs & failed every time :D so I can understand how you feel.

lordpwn
21-07-2007, 12:17
I voted no. The mission's one of the few that can actually pose difficulties to a badly coordinated or unskilled party in normal mode, and being near the end it should be a little difficult.

I completed it with a few guildmates a while ago. Shiro was harmless after we got a competent Warrior tank to hold him in place and a Monk tossing some prot and healing on the Warrior. We killed the Lich quickly and capped the shrines while the Monk and the Warrior stayed behind to keep Shiro in place. Then we took on Shiro; Impossible Odds wasn't that dangerous with the party scattered a bit to minimize the AoE effect and with the prot Monk covering whoever Shiro decided to rush at. The hex stack on Shiro killed him in seconds once he stopped to attack our Elementalist.

Just because we have Hard Mode now doesn't mean everything in Normal Mode should be nerfed to cater to the needs of bad PUGs and "casual players" who can't seem to understand basic game mechanics after somehow making it through most of the game.

Fay Vert
21-07-2007, 12:37
Reading the wiki, or forums here, shouldn't be a prerequisite for success for the average player, because the average player doesn't read the wiki or the forums. I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but failure can happen so rapidly, that there is no way to learn from the fight itself, and people have to rely on outside information to get it right.

QFT, all these people that think Shiro is easy are not bein honest, I am willing to bet most trotted off to wiki to "learn" how to do it because they couldn't do it themselves. That's not good game design. Tone Shiro down. But buff Abaddon, he was a joke.

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 13:42
If THK was considered hard in the early days for 1st time players, then gate of madness should be considered hard as well, even with heros. I am undecided because while NM GOM may be considered ok to experienced players, it may be too hard for people who started in elonia using their 1st character.

Stop saying its very easy and spare more thoughts for those with less experiences, else never ever call another player elitist again.


Er you do realise that Gate of Madness is the second to last mission in the game, there are more frustrating missions then that Ruins of Morah and Jennur's Horde (I've heard this is a differcult one). The player has to fight their way through RoT just to get to that mission they are hardly noobs by then (if the mission was at the point where Vizunah Square was then I would agree with you).

Ora
21-07-2007, 13:52
...that Ruins of Morah and Jennur's... ).

actually the advise is the same for all 3: rtfw (read the f* wiki).

5 minutes of reading wiki and each of those "difficult" missions is perfectly doable.

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 14:13
actually the advise is the same for all 3: rtfw (read the f* wiki).

5 minutes of reading wiki and each of those "difficult" missions is perfectly doable.


My point was that there are harder missions in the game even before you get to the Gate of Madness mission, also considering it's the end to last mission.

Risu Palace (long mission to get Master)

Abaddon's Mouth (was considered differcult at the time because of Willa the Unpleasant).

Ravious Pretagata
21-07-2007, 14:23
Beaten with H/H multiple times. Oh noes! You have to plan your party ahead to deal with the wraith area and Shiro.

Ora
21-07-2007, 14:24
My point was that there are harder missions in the game even before you get to the Gate of Madness mission, also considering it's the end to last mission.

Risu Palace (long mission to get Master)

Abaddon's Mouth (was considered differcult at the time because of Willa the Unpleasant).

I wasn't aiming at you :wink: besides, the OP might not have the earlier campaigns.

my point was aiming at the OP: reading wiki > repeating the same mission over and over again till you are frustrated.

Unknown Hatred
21-07-2007, 14:57
So...let me get this straight.

If i can 4 man GoM, with 1-3 deaths in the misson, NONE at shiro, its obviously too hard.

/Fail.

First time at doing GoM with heroes, only Dunkoro died, and that was due to a overpull of about 60 foes.

Oh, and i've heard about this skill, it interupts and deals holy damage to torment creatures, what was that called again? *cough*

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 15:17
Sorry my bad, yes wiki is a good source if you want to know how to get through hard missions (still Ruins can be frustrating).

Caitriona
21-07-2007, 15:28
It has already been "toned" down.

Shiro is a shadow of its former self.


No, no further need to DUMB it down even more... really. GW need at least a little bit of challenge. Anyone who cannot hench this mission seriously does not deserve to win it.

Ate of DK
21-07-2007, 15:52
My point was that there are harder missions in the game even before you get to the Gate of Madness mission, also considering it's the end to last mission.

Risu Palace (long mission to get Master)

Abaddon's Mouth (was considered differcult at the time because of Willa the Unpleasant).


Not really :rolleyes:
http://www.imagehoop.com/view_thumb/3f359900/gw007.jpg (http://www.imagehoop.com/view_image/3f359900/gw007.jpg)

http://www.imagehoop.com/view_thumb/69096924/gw008.jpg (http://www.imagehoop.com/view_image/69096924/gw008.jpg)

Sorry for the off-topic post.
But my point here is that everything can be done with hero/henchman.
If people would just take that 5min to create a team that has a chance and don't just go in with the cookie-cutter-build they play everywhere.

Ate

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 16:13
My reference to Abaddon's Mouth mission being hard was before Factions was released and to Risu Palace was before we got heroes in Nightfall.

A dazed Willa isn't so annoying as she was before, the only way we could apply daze on her back then was by using Skull Crack (and we all know what a great skill that was):grin:

Yes Risu is much easier now we can take heroes into that mission.

Kendel
21-07-2007, 16:25
My point was that there are harder missions in the game even before you get to the Gate of Madness mission, also considering it's the end to last mission.

Risu Palace (long mission to get Master)

Abaddon's Mouth (was considered differcult at the time because of Willa the Unpleasant).

Raisu Palace is EASY. The only boss who causes a problem is Koosun if your not smart enough to kill it ASAP.

Abaddon's Mouth was never hard... its was only hard because your average pug idiot has no idea what Mesmers and Rangers are, or what Disrupting Chop does. Sorry but a boss that has an effective ~160(?) armour making Meteor Shower do 21 damage isn't hard, the simple minded pugs made it hard. She had ONE healing skill for christ sake.

Personally i find Ring of Fire far harder purely because of those frigging Ether Seals trying to break into the base... its henchable... but frustrating.

Getting masters with hench i found hard outside of just tanking Shiro as a 55... but wtf.

Sea Edge
21-07-2007, 16:33
Wailing weapon wins.

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 16:38
Raisu Palace is EASY. The only boss who causes a problem is Koosun if your not smart enough to kill it ASAP.

Abaddon's Mouth was never hard... its was only hard because your average pug idiot has no idea what Mesmers and Rangers are, or what Disrupting Chop does. Sorry but a boss that has an effective ~160(?) armour making Meteor Shower do 21 damage isn't hard, the simple minded pugs made it hard. She had ONE healing skill for christ sake.

Personally i find Ring of Fire far harder purely because of those frigging Ether Seals trying to break into the base... its henchable... but frustrating.

Getting masters with hench i found hard outside of just tanking Shiro as a 55... but wtf.


I agree a mesmer could take her out with no problems (but don't forget mesmer were not wanted, so the average PuG wouldn't know how useful they would be). :wink:

As for the one skill her other skill did get nerfed.

Same thing for Thirsty Rivers mission and the monk boss, the average player found it hard to take them out. With the introduction of new skills, missions which were once hard suddenly become much more easier.

Mystic Zarak
21-07-2007, 16:52
it's not hard.. I can be abit of a challange to some ppl but come on! You wanna do it while you sleep!? All those complaints -,-

Isk8
21-07-2007, 17:05
Anyone who cannot hench this mission seriously does not deserve to win it.


I think that is a pretty biased and harsh comment.

Karadoth
21-07-2007, 17:18
THK was never hard, the Thirsty River 2 monks was more annoying till I managed to time a distracting shot right. Gates can be tricky (mainly impossible odds, really), my main problem is it takes too damn long to get to the tricky part so if you screw it up you have to slug through the amazingly dull rest of the mission again.

That said, there are plenty of tips in this thread that should help anyone out, I'll certainly be using hexes next character I bring through it (I didn't have any necro or mesmer skills unlocked on the first run through).

Zayren
21-07-2007, 18:04
Shadowsong, Blinding Surge, Blinding Flash, Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure, Reckless Haste, Empathy, and a good tank. Bye bye, Shiro. Beat it many times using that general build.

Sniperworm
21-07-2007, 18:10
I fail to see how people struggle so much in the mission, my first attempt through there I had no idea what was going to happen and didn't have any special builds to take on Shiro and the Lich and yet I managed to take them both at the same time in a strait fight.(Didn't know about the shrines untill my 3 time in the mission)

Mad King Corn
21-07-2007, 18:12
It needs to be toned down, I have gotten 8 characters through there ok, but only after many many tries. I still need to take 3 characters through there (Assassin, Ranger and Monk), all 3 have been trying for a month or better, My ranger and assassin cant seem to find groups very often, and when they do, we get wiped, my monk never has a problem getting a group, but so far the groups have all sucked. I had one good group recently that had potential, but 1 lost connection and never came back and shortly after that, another one left because he felt 7 people were not enough. :(
You know its a bit too hard when people can charge 10K-15K to run it and actually get people to pay it. If it was not for the high running cost, I would have given up long ago and just had people run it for me.

cyll
21-07-2007, 19:24
following the advice on this forum i used the following build:
player: N/Me anti melee ss
P/W hero heavy dmg negation, with wild throw
W/Mo hammer hero for wild blow, dps, interrupt.
D/Mo hero: dps
kihm, mhenlo: heal. with p/w support they can keep up easily
sogolon for even more support
cynn for dps

i outmanoeverd the patrols at the portals. killed all without problems
then killed shiro first. i wanted lich first but somehow shiro managed to pull. whatever, killed him first. with wild throw and blow and 2 para 2 monk support he did no dmg at all.
then capping the shrines. lich dmgd my henches, and killed some of them. rezzed and kept running the shrines. with all blessings i just squeezzed the undead life out of her.

i didnt tank shiro, or the lich with the Warr. he didnt have a shield :p i just wanted to use the rhino hammer. dual para dual monk has them to 5 dmg or something.
first H/H nopug try, check
lich dead, check
shiro dead, check
4/5 shrines capped, err so i killed the lich before i capped the last shrine :p no problem, ill just do it over. 20 minutes should be enough to finish this mission again knowing what i have to do.

correct build planning and corrent use of hero flags pwnz this mission. difficult, but the feeling is rewarding in itself.

ah and remember: go to the back of a shrine to break agro from shiro/lich. this way you can easily cap and regen.

good luck


EDIT: try capping the razah rit hero when you complete nightfall. the finding a purpose quest is a bit lower challenge than this mission, but it gave me the same kind of achievement feeling.

satenia
21-07-2007, 20:53
Imuo there is nothing wrong with the difficulty of this mission. Granted, it takes more focus on builds and bringing a few key skills along, but better a late lesson than none at all. By the time you get there, semi-mandatory heros and skills for this mission are already available, so it's not like you have to go all out of your way in order to meet the requirements.

Koss with wild blow and a basic warrior build does the Shiro tanking 100% fine (arguably better than your average PUG tank), Norgu and/or MoW/Olias hex him fine, the rest is really just optional. Done this so many times on various chars and I haven't failed on a H&H-only attempt ever.

Personally I think the problem is not so much with the mission itself, but with the sudden increase in difficulty compared to earlier missions, mostly related to the heavier focus on bringing the right builds/skills.

cyll
21-07-2007, 20:59
just did it again. got masters in 1 try :) this time i made sure i had that last shrine capped :p

not difficult, but certainly not easy either

gl

ChaoticCoyote
21-07-2007, 21:00
But my point here is that everything can be done with hero/henchman.
If people would just take that 5min to create a team that has a chance and don't just go in with the cookie-cutter-build they play everywhere.

Yes, everything can be beat with hero/hench... well, I haven;t beaten Aurora Glade yet with H/H, but I'll figure it out.

GW's root problem is that it tries to appeal to both hardcore (PvP and expert PvE) players like us, and also to casuals. Casual players -- those with a few hours a week to play -- have no hope of H/Hing the campaigns. And if they get frustrated, they quit, and if they quit, they aren't buying new chapters, and that means ANet loses business.

And due to the lack of a monthly fee, GW has a strong appeal to casuals.

Honestly, I think ANet needs to make some parts of Normal Mode slightly easier for the casuals, and make Hard Mode and end-game content challenging (as opposed to just boring "bigger, faster" monsters) for the hard cores. That may be what they're trying to do... but it still needs a bit a tuning, especially on missions that create "roadblocks" for casuals -- like Gates of Madness, Aurora Glade, and such.

TheSonofDarwin
21-07-2007, 21:09
It needs to be toned down, I have gotten 8 characters through there ok, but only after many many tries. I still need to take 3 characters through there (Assassin, Ranger and Monk), all 3 have been trying for a month or better, My ranger and assassin cant seem to find groups very often, and when they do, we get wiped, my monk never has a problem getting a group, but so far the groups have all sucked. I had one good group recently that had potential, but 1 lost connection and never came back and shortly after that, another one left because he felt 7 people were not enough. :(
You know its a bit too hard when people can charge 10K-15K to run it and actually get people to pay it. If it was not for the high running cost, I would have given up long ago and just had people run it for me.

For the bolded part - That also tells you how easy some people find it that they can run people through it no problem, even a few men down.

To be 100% honest, it's easier to do it with heroes/hench than real peeps...

Confusion of Minds
21-07-2007, 21:17
It needs to be toned down, I have gotten 8 characters through there ok, but only after many many tries. I still need to take 3 characters through there (Assassin, Ranger and Monk), all 3 have been trying for a month or better, My ranger and assassin cant seem to find groups very often, and when they do, we get wiped, my monk never has a problem getting a group, but so far the groups have all sucked. I had one good group recently that had potential, but 1 lost connection and never came back and shortly after that, another one left because he felt 7 people were not enough. :(
You know its a bit too hard when people can charge 10K-15K to run it and actually get people to pay it. If it was not for the high running cost, I would have given up long ago and just had people run it for me.


My advice to you is to hero hench it, believe me you would be amazed at how easy it is if you do, the only tricky part in the mission is closing the rifts parts, the advice given here will help you on what is the best builds to get through the mission and defeat Shiro.:wink:

PuG's can be unpredictable, I've never had to do the mission with them so I'm not sure how hard it is otherwise.

cibi
21-07-2007, 21:52
I miss when pugs were occasionally good.

All the same, Shiro isn't quite THAT bad, and I find that Wild Blow is handy on him here, just like it is in Factions.

Also, the litch is waaaaaaay to easy, so Shiro is the only real boss here. Honestly, have you ever been a fire ele and watched the damage you do to the litch? Guy must be made of paper... Or a dried corpse, I guess.

Kendel
21-07-2007, 22:07
Shadowsong, Blinding Surge, Blinding Flash, Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure, Reckless Haste, Empathy, and a good tank. Bye bye, Shiro. Beat it many times using that general build.

You call that general? Are you on something?

And how does that even work once he hits Impossible Odds... he just removes all hexes then spreads blind to everything.

Bezimienny
21-07-2007, 22:24
You call that general? Are you on something?

And how does that even work once he hits Impossible Odds... he just removes all hexes then spreads blind to everything.
IIRC he only removes ONE hex - so you just need to cover it.

getalifeme
21-07-2007, 23:22
I did it on first attempt (NM) with my Deverish in an average PUG. I am saying average because only 2 people had done it before and rest, including me were attempting it for first time. So i did exactly what party leader asked me to do. I got my tanking skills on, engaged Shrio, monk stayed at the safe distance and began to heal me. I kept Shiro busy while rest of the team took care of other things. No one in our team died even once.

MisterB
21-07-2007, 23:33
It needs to be toned down, I have gotten 8 characters through there ok, but only after many many tries. I still need to take 3 characters through there (Assassin, Ranger and Monk), all 3 have been trying for a month or better, My ranger and assassin cant seem to find groups very often, and when they do, we get wiped, my monk never has a problem getting a group, but so far the groups have all sucked. I had one good group recently that had potential, but 1 lost connection and never came back and shortly after that, another one left because he felt 7 people were not enough. :(
You know its a bit too hard when people can charge 10K-15K to run it and actually get people to pay it. If it was not for the high running cost, I would have given up long ago and just had people run it for me.

A few of our guildies had Rangers that needed this done, so we ran a modified Barrage/Pet and utterly slaughtered this. Easiest time I ever ran this mission. Half our team was heroes, including the monks. You could try that on your Ranger; you only need one other person with heroes to pull that off. Just wait in a semicircle outside the door while someone pulls Shiro out, and ambush him.

edit: You will of course need level 20 pets on your heroes; we had an army of Black Moas.

Ora
22-07-2007, 00:33
Yes, everything can be beat with hero/hench... well, I haven;t beaten Aurora Glade yet with H/H, but I'll figure it out.

.


I have mastered it on hm with h/h...and yet again, the answer is: rtfw (read the f***wiki) there is a neat little hint in there working similar to the Dunes bonus :wink:

Kinlin
22-07-2007, 00:43
I got through this mission and I suck at Guild Wars. :laugh:

I vote no.

Love
22-07-2007, 01:03
To answer the quesion of the poll, no. I dont think it should be toned down. I see this mission as a nice example of teamwork and planning. If u just get random bunch of ppl and run in, u will most likely fail it at somepoint. If u take the trouble of putting up a co-ordinated team, sorting out builds and so on, its fairly easy to do.

Ofc this is only based on my own experiences with said mission.

Laken Cascade
13-08-2007, 23:27
Okay i'm gonna commit a small pice of threadmancy here , about 10 monutes ago i retried gates of madness using peoples advice and once again got my *** handed to me on a platter by a certain red armoured Canthan who is clearly overpowered , how do you guys do it i mean i took all this

Builds:
Me: Rt/W Using Lord Helmos Spriit Strength Swordsman set up with 2 points taken out of swordmanship and put into communing to lengthen vital weapon after the nerf
Prot Strike was replaced with Wild Blow
And Wileders Boon with Savage Slash

Heroes:
Mo Dunkoro
12 healing , 12 divine
healing touch , words of comfort , orison of healing , ethreal light,heal party , smite hex, healers boon , resurrection chant

Necro
Minion Master , Death Bomber

Ele
OgBCoMzDdbs20MG9CcBtQAA

Hench
Mhenlo,Khimi, Sogolon,Gehraz

I went in fine got across the bridge okay using savage slash to interrupt the pain titans and spellcasters

Took out the torment claw by interrupting torment slash with savage slash

Moved round cleared at the base of spiral , took claw on left then right using the savage slash technique

Went up started shiro conv , moved down and waited for them to come

Moved round the portals slowly taken the wraiths out , took down the two titans to make the last portla easier

Got and pulledshiro out , started attacking him using wild blow then he started wiping me out when he was at 3/4 health until i could no longer widl blow him before dying

tried to pull the lich died inside the temple and from there i couldn't be rezzed without them both landing on top of me and wiping me out

So can someone tell me now that Shiro is not overpowered because i swear by god he is

Erasculio
13-08-2007, 23:40
So can someone tell me now that Shiro is not overpowered because i swear by god he is
He isn't overpowered, not really, he's just hard. I'm sure it has already been said on this topic, and that your question would be more fitting at the Nightfall PvE section, but anyway:

I don't think you had either enough damage or enough defense to take him down. Keep in mind that Shiro has some weaknesses that may be used to kill him a lot easier:

1) He kills people with Impossible Odds, and he only triggers that when he's at low health. Which means, you may just ignore him when he's at full health without many problems.

2) Impossible Odds removes all conditions from him, as well as one hex, but he has no way to deal with enchantments. Which means, using enchantments and other ways to evade being hit really help.

3) Impossible Odds makes him attack extremely fast. Skills that hurt oponents when they attack (Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, Empathy and etc) really, REALLY hurt him.

So I would suggest the following:

a) Kill the Lich first. Ignore Shiro - don't even bother pulling the Lich, just move down and kill him first, without Impossible Odds Shiro is easly ignored.

b) After killing the Lich, continue to ignore Shiro and go get the bonus. Earning the blessings of the Five Gods give your entire party huge buffs that really help when trying to kill Shiro.

c) Get an Elementalist with Ward Against Melee (Herta is enough) and a Necromancer with Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste and Parasitic Bond as cover hex. When you are ready to kill Shiro, make sure he's inside the Ward, and that he's always under SS and RH (use Parasitic Bond on his, so Impossible Odds won't remove any of the two other hexes).

d) Get a better offense. Your party was almost purely defense (three monks, with two being Healing monks that cannot really deal with Shiro, and one Paragon), so switch that a bit - I usually play through that area with two or at most three monks as my entire defense. Protection is more important than Healing there.

Erasculio

aptaleonII
13-08-2007, 23:40
I don't think it should be toned down. This is one of those missions that forces players to break from the builds they've used to sail through everything else without using their imaginations and use something different... as well as some planning. Very hard missions are a good thing.

Fade Into Shadow
13-08-2007, 23:41
Its perfectly beatable at this point and would cheapen the feeling of finally making it if they were to decrease the difficulty.

Grima Wormtongue
13-08-2007, 23:42
three monks + totally defensive para = fail.
one hero useless at shiro (mm bomber) = fail.
two meele = fail.

* healer monk? try protection. and try some freakign energy mamagement too. or simply scrap hero monk.

* mm might be cool, but he just does not help at most important battle (hes not that great vs titans either.). scrap olias or make him go curses.

* take herta isntead of geraz. seriosuly. ward = shiro now does 50% damage (!). she deals damage too, btw.

* dont go in meele with freaking caster. you cost monks too much energy at cost of doing nothing being worth it going to meele.

aka, learn to play.

Kattox
13-08-2007, 23:48
This mission is the one reason why I haven't finished the nightfall campaign as of yet. I understand the need to be hard but Impossible Odds is just extreme. You can't out-heal/prot it, you can't kill him before he kills your whole party with it, and the stupidity of the heroes, (especially the necromancer henchmen,) in getting into melee range of him means that you're screwed unless you pug it... and even then you've got no guarantees that you'll get a decent group.

Basically, the way I see it, the only way to win on the Gates of Madness is to keep grouping with pugs and praying the other players know what they're doing.

Sounds Risky
13-08-2007, 23:50
This mission is the one reason why I haven't finished the nightfall campaign as of yet. I understand the need to be hard but Impossible Odds is just extreme. You can't out heal it, you can't kill him before he kills your whole party with it, and the stupidity of the heroes, (especially the necromancer henchmen,) in getting into melee range of him means that you're screwed unless you pug it... and even then you've got no guarantees that you'll get a decent group.

Basically, the way I see it, the only way to win on the Gates of Madness is to keep grouping with pugs and praying the other players know what they're doing.

Don't give them touch skills and flag them far enough away so they can still cast the necessary spells. And set healer heroes on passive so they don't wand.

soulfoot
13-08-2007, 23:52
my in game name is Evil Ash Boomstick, friend me and i will be happy to help with gates of maddness, i can even do it while you go afk, specially if its only one person besides my henchmen and heroes


edit: this includes bonus btw

double edit: contact me in game i dont check forums hardly at all, your post was on main page and caught my eye

Laken Cascade
14-08-2007, 00:08
three monks + totally defensive para = fail.
one hero useless at shiro (mm bomber) = fail.
two meele = fail.

* healer monk? try protection. and try some freakign energy mamagement too. or simply scrap hero monk.

* mm might be cool, but he just does not help at most important battle (hes not that great vs titans either.). scrap olias or make him go curses.

* take herta isntead of geraz. seriosuly. ward = shiro now does 50% damage (!). she deals damage too, btw.

* dont go in meele with freaking caster. you cost monks too much energy at cost of doing nothing being worth it going to meele.

aka, learn to play.

Thank You Grima for your feedback next time please do it without insulting me and my intelligence and my so called non-ability to play the game
(considering i have h& hed every mission in proph and nearly everyone in factions with my closest friend , who is less experinced then me)

Oh and thank you Erasuclio that was good and informative , very standard of your posts which i alwats enjoy reading as there well lad out and well thought even if i don't always agree

Kattox
14-08-2007, 00:12
Don't give them touch skills and flag them far enough away so they can still cast the necessary spells. And set healer heroes on passive so they don't wand.

I can happily say that I don't give them touch skills, I do flag them away and I do set the healers on passive.

What I get is seeing Olias running up close to Shiro away from his flag point so he'll cast spiteful spirit even though he was in casting range and not under attack where he was. I then see dunkoro running around like a chicken and not healing anyone when Shiro is out of attack range. Herta decides to cast her wards away from where the action is going on and during all this I'm struggling to keep my little old dervish alive after I and half the party lose half hp in the space of a few seconds.

To be honest, from what I've seen, Shiro needs a slight nerf so he hasn't got almost insta party wipe and Mr Lich needs a substantial buff, (all he manages to do before death is distract me for 10 seconds from shiro before he gets slapped to the ground).

margretli
14-08-2007, 00:25
I always take the Spoiled Victor Necro route.

My fav team set up for this is:

SV Necro
best to have a battery necro for this, main damage to Shiro at the end, but not really the main damage dealer for the entire mission.

Spirit Rit
Very useful for protecting the team, and spirits are good diversion for the end bosses, especially if going for masters.

Wild Throw Paragon
Wild Blow Warrior
Bring both if possible, but I find having only one would be enough. Both wild skill are for taking Shiro out of his deadly stance (which name escaped me at the moment)

Healer
Quick spike heals, and party heal when necessary. Hopefully most large spike will be toned down by the spirits.

Additional damage dealers.
Any damage dealing class will do. These are for getting to the point where the end bosses are, and for finishing Shiro off when his hp drop too low for SV to work.

Have not failed with a set up similar to that.

Sounds Risky
14-08-2007, 00:41
In the few times I use Dunkoro, I have to admit he comes off as slightly retarded.

I've beaten Gates of Madness with two characters, using the same setup both times (a dervish and then a necromancer). I brought Koss, Tahlkora, the Master of Whispers and then Odurra, Herta, Mhenlo and Devona.

Koss was given basic axe skills along with Grenth's Balance, Wild Blow, "Watch Yourself!" and Bonetti's Defense. Tahlkora was run with a basic Light of Deliverance Hybrid build (with Protective Spirit). I believe both times the Master of Whispers had Spoil Victor along with Price of Failure, Insidious Parasite and Parasitic Bond along with some other junk to try and keep him alive/useful during the rest of the mission.

The Lich was dispatched first of course. I then flagged Koss in the corner near the gate to the temple, Tahlkora within range of Koss and then the rest of the group far away. I pulled Shiro up and had Koss intercept him, I then made sure to re-flag Koss so he would move back to his original spot, but this time with Shiro in tow. Shiro doesn't do enough damage to a single character with the healer AI assisting, so I was free to take the rest of the party to capture the shrines. Once the shrines were all captured I'd head back to Shiro and flag the party a bit outside of Shiro's range so when I called him out as a target, the ranged would move in enough to be able to cast their spells but still out of range of the devasting skill of his, but Devona wouldn't move in since she would only move so far from the flag. When I did it on the Dervish character I didn't even need to fight Shiro for most of the fight, as I probably would have gotten myself killed anyway.

Both times I've done this it's worked like a charm.

Djinn Effer
14-08-2007, 00:47
The mission is very easy. I've never failed it and I've even been able to run it with a friend... You should probably try reading guildwiki's tips and trying what it suggests, it makes it very easy.

Quintus Antonius
14-08-2007, 00:50
I really don't think this mission is that tough. True, you can't run in and take everything at once, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. Just because something is difficult, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Age
14-08-2007, 01:16
It is not that hard with a good team and I mean team.I got four char through it as well as Monked it.It is not that hard if everyone has a good skill bar and no tanking Eles.

Age
14-08-2007, 01:24
I always take the Spoiled Victor Necro route.

My fav team set up for this is:

SV Necro
best to have a battery necro for this, main damage to Shiro at the end, but not really the main damage dealer for the entire mission.

Spirit Rit
Very useful for protecting the team, and spirits are good diversion for the end bosses, especially if going for masters.

Wild Throw Paragon
Wild Blow Warrior
Bring both if possible, but I find having only one would be enough. Both wild skill are for taking Shiro out of his deadly stance (which name escaped me at the moment)

Healer
Quick spike heals, and party heal when necessary. Hopefully most large spike will be toned down by the spirits.

Additional damage dealers.
Any damage dealing class will do. These are for getting to the point where the end bosses are, and for finishing Shiro off when his hp drop too low for SV to work.

Have not failed with a set up similar to that.
Necro :Insidious Parasite
Mesmer:Empathy
Monk:Aegis but not effective out of aggro as to the Nerf someone quoted me it is not nessary in this mission.Not on this forum.

majoho
14-08-2007, 01:38
Had no big problems beating it with Heroes/Henchmen, it did take me 4-5 tries to do it though, but I consider that a learning process you shouldn't really be able to do it on your first try.

Go slow, the Lich is easy, beating shiro is just a case of placing your h/h right and using wild blow.

I didn't bother with masters though.

Kendel
14-08-2007, 01:50
Funny how you left out the most useful stance removal in this situation...

The Critical Defences Wild Striker? You know... the 1 who tanks Shiro with a permanent 75% evasion and can wild strike his battle scars off incredibly fast, and and also happens to be the ONLY character that can solo the original Factions Shiro... and considering this Shiro is easier i'd say theres no problem.

big evil tam
14-08-2007, 02:13
mission is easy to do with heros and hench .i have done hundreds of times for players stuck on this one .pm me if you want a helping hand.i run this mission 5-6 times a day.

happy feet
14-08-2007, 02:23
CAN THE FLOW OF USELESS POLLS STOP!!!!!!!!!

I mean I don't flame very often but it seems every thread has a poll now, ><, makes me wonder that you can't make desicions yourself and need to rely on others....

Laken Cascade
14-08-2007, 02:23
I have done this mission now soulfoot was basically amazing and knew what to do , however whislt watching him i did note you seem to need a set build and that does worry me slightly on the missions dificulty and he was using that crit sen mentioned above which is amazing considering how cack the ai cna be

Zehnchu
14-08-2007, 02:33
It's easy to people who have Prophecies Campaign and or Factions Campaign.

For people who start out in Nightfall only it's close to imposable.

It's only easy if you take skills people are saying to take.......

Spiteful Spirit-Prophecies Campaign
Spoil Victor-Factions Campaign
Insidious Parasite-Prophecies Campaign

As you can see a Nightfall only player doesn't have these skills.

Gate of madness doesn't need to be toned down...it's Shiro that needs to be toned down...

You get the same results time after time....you get him down to half and he wipes the party out.

Not everyone is can be good....

P.S And don't say pug it...cuz you all know that's a joke, guild it if people where in big guilds you wouldn't think so many people have trouble. buy the chapter you need skills for..ugh yeah can you think of anything more lame to say.

beldeti
14-08-2007, 02:37
Grats on finishing a mission that's been a thorn on the side of many a player. But it's fine as is, once you have the build and strategy down pat.

I didn't bother with the bonus for a long time after I finished it on my ranger, it was hard for me but finished it first try (apt name, that mission). I was running a b/p team, with margrid, jin and olias, plus mhenlo, khim, devona and i forget which one... Sogolon? I had just recently tamed hyenas, so they were levels 14-16 when I did the mission. Minions and pets soaked up the Battle Scars, but Shiro took a long time to die but die he did. Lich went pretty easy after that.

I only went back to it last week on my Protector-hunting binge, read the tips up here and mastered it in normal mode with h&h. It was much easier than I remembered (even though I was in between rifts #1 and 2 when the rifts activated), with the proper setup.

Went back there last night and mastered it with my monk. Up next will be the rest of my characters to gather their heroes and keyless chests.

karadoc
14-08-2007, 02:45
I had a lot of trouble completing this mission the first time. But I did it.

It is hard, but it really isn't _that_ hard. When I did it the first time, I was playing as an Illusionary Weaponry mesmer, with a complete Heroes/Henchmen team. Also, I didn't rally any of the gods, because I thought it would make the mission harder rather than easier (usually going for the bonus makes things harder. I didn't know what would happen.)

If I managed to complete it under those conditions, that certainly dispels most of the myths about it, such as "it can't be done with H/H" and "it requires a particular build".

After completing it that way, I was able to beat it first time every time for each of my other characters - all with H/H teams. (It really is a lot easier to beat Shiro with all the buffs you get from the shrines.)

No one needs Spiteful Spirit, or Spoil Victor, or any other particular skills. It's a hard mission, but challenges are what make games fun!

Marveric
14-08-2007, 02:46
The mission is fine. Period. Make it any easier and you might as well just give everyone Legendary Guardian.

What needs fixing is that PuG idiots need to stop being stupid and learn to play the game. People keep dying and they grab more healing monks, but all they need is a f***in prot monk and an evasion tank to hold Shiro, and then hex him to death... the Lich is too busy throwing his wand orbs at the wall to do any thing else. The tanks are too busy spamming Mending and Healing Breeze everywhere to bother with evasion stances, the eles are too busy "nuking" to do something more useful, the necros are too busy spamming life steals everywhere because they think "omg lifestealing I'm an invinci vampire!!!", rangers are too busy spamming that useless barrage instead of interrupting, and all the other people are excluded because they don't have the right first letter.

This thing is easily henchable with heroes, so meh. I did it with my legendary survivor derv and I tanked Shiro without ever going <50%. Oh and I didn't have Spoil Victor to kill him with; just SS, Empathy, and PoF. Heck you can solo Shiro.

BunnyLord
14-08-2007, 02:51
They need to town down Domain of Secret. That's the worst place in Realm of Torment.

Gates of Madness is actually easy especially with the recent "buffs" to protection spells such as guardian and aegis.

Marveric
14-08-2007, 03:04
Domain of Secrets is a nightmare in HM... that energy increase thing needs to go down to 10-15%, not 30%...

WasAGuest
14-08-2007, 03:20
gah, clicked yes instead of no...

Ate of DK
14-08-2007, 03:27
Domain of Secrets is a nightmare in HM... that energy increase thing needs to go down to 10-15%, not 30%...

It's very easy to farm LB-points there actualy.

Here is my favorite build for my ranger in PvE:
I have a ranger myself and take Jin and Margrid as extra rangers. (3 Barrage rangers with whirling def & throw dirt) A Paragon/Necro that uses Order of the Vampire as elite and some damage boost shouts. Khim, Mhenlo, Sologon and Devona.
(With this team my record time in HM Grand Court of Sebelkeh is 5:17min)

I only kill the margonites most of the time and leave the Menzies aside. They have too small groups and I dont like running so much.

Elex Aio
14-08-2007, 03:27
Don't think it needs to be toned down. I mean, if you know what to do (guild wiki really helps), and you have good defense and offense, it is very doable. Even if you don't have prophecies or factions. Not all missions have to be so easy that you can blow right through them. I remember back from my noob days that I'd have to try missions over and over, and I got a better sense of self accomplishment if I beat it. (Experience with this mission really helps with this mission.)

BTW, a nice tip I noticed last time I did the mission: If you have all of your casters hide behind the doors outside of the fortress/temple that the Lich and Shiro are in while your tanks tank (the monks can focus heals on them), it works pretty well. Your casters can safely cast away. (I was a warrior on my last try)

oakwine
14-08-2007, 04:44
I've done this mission for several of my characters, helped friends who were doing it. How? Looked it up offline, read up on all the tips. Put the mission name in a search engine, or look it up on a certain popular wiki.

My Suggestion: So, why should players have to look offline for tips on how to succeed at this mission, or any other? Should be an NPC in the outpost with some advice on how to proceed, or at least an official GW link with extended mission info.

karadoc
14-08-2007, 06:45
oakwine, the official GW wiki can be accessed by all players at all times. You can even get a link to the mission you are on by typing /help in the game. Players are free to access this information whenever they wish.

There does not need to be an NPC in the game saying things like "bring Spiteful Spirit and Spoil Victor to kill Shiro at the end". In fact, I think that would spoil the game for a lot of people. I'd wager that most people would prefer not to be walked though a game. I find that most of the fun in games comes from working things rather than from "winning". We don't need an in-game walkthough at every mission. That would spoil it. If someone wants a walkthrough, the can get it from outside the game.

Son of the hood
14-08-2007, 08:28
i've done it in NM + HM, so why this poll?

I'ts not as if its impossible to do!

Five Seven
14-08-2007, 08:39
it's fine as it is

Nanashi
14-08-2007, 08:44
I think they toned down Shiro in NM and left his difficult half to HM. In that case it's fine as before Shiro was the true problem, the mission itself was like THK before reaching the Keep.

WingspanTT
14-08-2007, 09:00
Aegis chain + "There's nothing to fear" + 10 god blessings > Shiro

LBKnight
14-08-2007, 09:21
This is in reference to the Gate of Madness mission.

PUG & Pray and hope that the 5 Gods are around to answer your prayer.

The worse that could possibly happen while capturing the altars of the 5 Gods:
You get a voice recording informing that The 5 Gods are away on *cough* official duty (where in fact they are having popcorns & ales, and betting over the tournaments in HoH) - Please leave your message after the beeb!

Asbjornsalech
14-08-2007, 09:25
GoM is not that bad i have done HM on it

Lensor
14-08-2007, 10:02
I think it is fine. The only "problem" with it is that it is a long trek to Shiro/Lich, so if you dont pack enough punch to take them out, it is a lot of time "wasted".

Cérilia
14-08-2007, 10:35
I've beaten this mission with H/H, but I still find it way too hard. Beating this mission is a chore there is no fun for me in here.

Ate of DK
14-08-2007, 10:44
I've beaten this mission with H/H, but I still find it way too hard. Beating this mission is a chore there is no fun for me in here.

But the better the feeling once you beat it. And that's a feeling I like to have after completing the (unfortunatly few) chalanges in GuildWars.

Eggia Haiip
14-08-2007, 11:21
Heya

In a word:- No.
In 2 words:- **** no.
In 3 words:- why the ****?

I got to this mission very recently, playing through with my friend who i have played through all 3 chapters with. we set our team up after reading the objectives (me a derv, him a necro, and our 6 heros between us)
We went through the mish, and wiped the first try cos we missed a patrol, which came in on us during a battle and killed us all.
Next try, we changed out setup slightly, and we completed the mission first time. The trip to the portals area was the hardest part, the portals were pretty easy (with our expert luring tactics) and then the final battles against the lich and shiro (sepperatly as we lured again) was the easiest part, we even capped all shrines and got masters!

If we could do it 2'nd try, why would it need toneing down? My opinion is that people give up too quick, or get stressed with it and make mistakes. I imagine (if you were failing in pugs) that you just needed a better leadership that knew what they were doing.

As its the second to last mission in elona (iirc) its meant to be hard as nails!

With my 25 months playing time, and my friends the same, the two of us have become very good at the pve side of GW (even if i do say so myself!)

So if anyone has been stuck on this one for ages, gimme a whisper ingame, and i'll help you if i'm free at the time. :grin:

Eggia (IGN Lisa Lightstriker)

Cérilia
14-08-2007, 11:23
But the better the feeling once you beat it. And that's a feeling I like to have after completing the (unfortunatly few) chalanges in GuildWars.

Well my feeling after beating it was: "not anymore". (and I have yet to beat it 8 more times to finish NF with my other characters... *sigh*)
Challenges are not something I enjoy to be honest!

Garbaron
14-08-2007, 11:26
I’ve beaten Shiro and Lich yesterday with an all H/H Team and was surprised how well it worked. Couple of the Hench got slain by Shiro but overall it was rather easy.

I did not bother to try bonus since it was my secondary char and he really does not need to get “protector” everywhere.... but my main does :D.. but I guess even that would have been possible.

Anyway.. what really stuns me is that sometimes you cant beat Shiro with a full human party!
Shows you how bad some ppl are at team play! I mean.. full human party. They all can us 8/8 Skills while Hench only have like 4-6/8 Skills…..

I went to Abbadon using the same party constellation and beating him was a joke too… I even made master with the H/H .. something I did not expect to happen.

So even if I said “needs to be toned down” earlier I revoke that statement.. GoM can be done.. and easily too.

SpongeBob
14-08-2007, 11:31
This mission isn't hard at all if you are just patient. Doesn't need to be toned down. My PUG group did it the 2nd time we tried. It's all a matter of separating Shiro from the Lich and taking him out, the Lich is easy. It was the only mission I decided to try a PUG with since it was a challenge with heroes/henchies. If a PUG can win it this easily it doesn't need to be toned down. I wish all missions were harder myself. Most of NF was so easy it wasn't as much fun playing through it like Prophecies. RoT was ok and definitely challenging of the whole chapter. But, the rest of the chapter was just too silly easy. Abaddon battle yes was definitely very easy. They should have switched the missions around since this one was definitely much better.
The other mission that I thought was challenging in NF was the Drought mission. I tried that one with several PUGS over an over an over again and nobody could heal well, nobody could interupt well, nobody could do anything well, but, me.:grin: So, finally after seeing what the Drought actually did I build my own hero/henchie group and beat it the very next time through it. It was so simple any 8 year old could do it. Most of the entire chapter one could just use heroes/henchies and nothing else was hard until the Shiro/Lich mission. I even only used 5 total hero/henchie until I got to RoT. Only 3 in early portion up until Drought mission. NF was pretty easy. Of course hard mode makes things much harder, but, normal mode makes things much easier. So, since normal mode is so easy now no need to tone this mission down for that reason as well. I see well over 70% agree so I doubt it will be changed.

Karadoth
14-08-2007, 11:33
Challenge is good, boring part you have to do every time before the challenge is bad.

Tom Nook
14-08-2007, 11:34
Anyway.. what really stuns me is that sometimes you cant beat Shiro with a full human party!
Shows you how bad some ppl are at team play! I mean.. full human party. They all can us 8/8 Skills while Hench only have like 4-6/8 Skills…..

Reminds me of Thunderhead Keep, back in the day.
I couldn't do it with PUGs but sailed through it with a Henchmen team. :laugh:

Karadoth
14-08-2007, 11:36
Yeah, I did that with most of prophecies (well, sometimes I had my other two ranger friends as well), it was amusing that some groups sat for ages refusing to even take one hench slot...

Grima Wormtongue
14-08-2007, 11:37
Challenge is good, boring part you have to do every time before the challenge is bad.

QFT.

Its just like THK - long, time consuming prelude to challenging part. Challeging part needs to stay, time consuming prellude needs to go.

Rob Van Der Sloot
14-08-2007, 11:38
I always ask some guildies to help out with Gate of Madness. I know it's hard, and I've never tried to hench it. Shiro is the biggest problem I think. It's hard to get all the shrines while that maniac is chopping up your party. That's why I always ask someone from my guild to tank Shiro.

Despite the difficulty it would be a shame if Gate of Madness was toned down. As others have already pointed out Abaddon is too easy. This is basically the only really hard mission before the end.

SpongeBob
14-08-2007, 11:44
Reminds me of Thunderhead Keep, back in the day.
I couldn't do it with PUGs but sailed through it with a Henchmen team. :laugh:

You're kidding? I got through that first try. All it took was a MM back in the day when they could have unlimited pets.:rolleyes: I later went back and did it with my heroes/henchies and it was a blast. Heroes in my book are much better at performing their skills than most players.:grin: I don't PUG much anymore, just can't find reason for it except to help a group out that is having a tough time on a particular mission if I happen to be in the zone. I spend most of my time in newbieland of Nightfall farming easy golds now. :laughing: This is why I have a hard time believing anyone is having a hard time making money. I make nearly 5k a run now in newbieland just fartin around through the zone. Most runs are 4 golds per and nearly always some maxed out upgrade or weapon.

shadowhand
14-08-2007, 11:47
I've never had any real trouble with this mission. Sure, I died a few times until I had tinkered with my group build a bit and come up with something that worked against the majority of the foes on the map - as well as the bosses, but it was quite doable I found.

In fact, even my monk, who is admittedly not much of a fighter.... Ok, not a fighter at all... Got through that mission with barely a hitch... I say it's fine as it is.

Shakkara
14-08-2007, 13:00
Did it on first try with hench shortly after the game was released. I'm a wammo, brought koss, dunkoro and morgahn and the two monk, paragon and dervish hench. Ignored shiro and killed lich first, then activated the shrine, then killed shiro. Took me a few sec to figure out that there should be only one person near shiro or he heals way too fast, so I tanked him and flagged my heroes back and eventually got him down.

jsmorley
14-08-2007, 13:07
I think it would ruin it to make it any easier. This is also one of the few (only?) missions where obtaining the masters level on the mission isn't just a vanity effort, but if you do the bonus objectives the main objective is far easier.

With a reasonably coordinated group, this mission isn't hard at all, just a bit long. Take the groups one at a time, (watch the patrol patterns before attacking the first time you do the mission, so you avoid agro'ing two groups at once) pull the big titan monsters around the portals so you can deal with them and the stuff that spawns from their dead bodies before you take the rest of the mob, have one player call targets at all times so you focus your attacks.

When you get to the end, have everyone focus on the Litch first, he isn't that hard to get down. Don't attack Shiro AT ALL. Just run away from him. Then in a clockwise fashion go get each of the bonus altars, they are easy. Remember, while doing this run away from Shiro, don't attack him at all or he will wipe out the entire team with Impossible Odds.

Once you have all the bonus altars, you will have so many buffs on the team that Shiro will be a pussycat. Run back into the middle and just kick his butt.

Ate of DK
14-08-2007, 13:27
Gate of Madness belongs to the small group of missions that require that little extra for a lot of players to complete it in HM with Master Reward.

Eternal Grove HM is another one, but they are not unbeatable.

They should remain at how they are now. Keep the challange.

Nathardia
14-08-2007, 13:30
So what can be done about it well there 3 solutions in my eyes:

Solutions

1. Tone down the area effect better healing will counter the high damage

2.Remove the torment claw at the portal , theres no reason for it to be there except to wipe out the average PUG, taking an interrupt ranger means you lose damage for Shiro, not taking one means you run the risk of that one portal wiping you

3.Remove Shiros ability to Shadowstep or tone down Impossible Odds , there good skills for the Faction Final mission but here they crank up the difficulty stupidly, obviously Shiro should be a threat but not an guarantted killer against most partys

4. Try to think outside the cookie cutter box.

An Ebon Dust Aura+Pin Down or a Crippling Shot+Throw Dirt+Dust Trap ranger (either build should bring Muddy Terrain as well), can totally nullify Shiro. Neglecting 90% of his damage and removing 100% of his 33% speed buff means less burden on the monks, keeps the rest of the party safe, and makes it a breeze for the rest of the team to cap the portals... which is far more useful to have than some added damage. -_-

Impossible Odds barely does any damage if you spread out your party; just lure Shiro outside the gate to neglect most of its damage. And the torment claw? I hope you're not standing next or into it or something? Claws have a limited range, so ranged attacks are key here. ;)

BlackSephir
14-08-2007, 13:35
Too hard? Maybe in HM, I did it in NM with henchies...

seamussheridan
14-08-2007, 13:45
I've done it in NM with most of my characters by just using Heroes and Henchies. If you know how to do the mission it is easy.

Oh, a Paragon with

"Save Yourselves!"
"There's Nothing to Fear!"
"Go for the Eyes!"
Aggressive Refrain or Frenzy
"They're on Fire!"
Focused Anger

helps a ton. As does a Dervish with Ebon Dust Aura, as was mentioned above, or a Broad Head Arrow Ranger.

choco
14-08-2007, 14:18
Blinding Surge + Spirit Shackles = Puppy Shiro and energy management, enough said.

Grima Wormtongue
14-08-2007, 14:43
Ill just note that shiro can transfer all conditions to adjacent party members (he does not need to hit) and remove one hex every ~10 seconds.

Thus, if you bring condition heavy build, know what you are doing, because otherwise they can backfire easily. Monk dealing with most of party being blind/having 10 degen from conditions and is snared by cripple will have a lot problems on top of shiros normal stuff.

Zaxares
14-08-2007, 15:02
No, I don't believe this mission needs to be toned down. It's all a matter of knowing how to pull, and having the right builds to deal with Shiro. (I strongly recommend a Curses necromancer with Price of Failure, Reckless Haste and Spiteful Spirit, and a Communing Spirit Spammer with Wanderlust and Shadowsong)

A lot of people suggest pulling and killing the Lich first, but from my experience, it's a lot easier to pull and kill SHIRO first. You can pull him all the way back to the first gate that leads down into the area where he and the Lich are waiting, and he can be pulled far away enough that the Lich won't interfere in the fight.

Once you've got Shiro on his own, body block him with your warriors so he can't run back, then pile on the anti-melee hexes. His Impossible Odds skill is still highly dangerous, but if your Curses necro can keep the critical hexes on him, and the Spirit Ritualist can keep either Wanderlust or Shadowsong up at all times, Shiro will not prove a problem at all.

The Lich is a joke on his own. Have the Curses necro cast Enfeeble on him while your party runs from shrine to shrine to keep his insane wand damage down, and you shouldn't have any problems.

jerseyjoe
14-08-2007, 15:10
I've done the mission with six of my own characters and have helped guildies do it. It can be done with people who use their brains. It can be done with hero/hench. It cannot be done by people who can't adapt to a difficult situation. This is a noob filter, like THK used to be in Prophecies.

galad
14-08-2007, 15:20
just take necro hero with spoil victor and watch shiro killing himself in few seconds, peace of cake.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 15:20
Just wait until you try to Vanquish the Poisoned Outcrops using Heroes in Hard Mode, then you will know the real meaning of difficult.

I still haven't worked out a build that could take out Droajam, Mage of the Sands and three Sandstorm Crags, as well as doing the rest of the area, some of the groups can kill a party in seconds if they have DP.


Amen to that. I thought it had been hard when I had first gone in just to cap from him, but vanquishing was an uber pain.

liamSlayer
14-08-2007, 15:25
just got wiped by shiro, our party got him down to 1/10 health and he wipped us all out..............

but its doable

soulfoot i am pming you XD

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 15:34
I had to give up reading by page 8, attention span doesn't let me get through all of the pages. I voted no because I have taken all 9 of my chars through on normal mode with just heroes and hench. The only thing that I would say is required would be stance breaking skills for Shiro, though it is probably possible without them. I suppose I bring anti-melee hexes as well. For the rest of the mission, agro control, pulling, killing the wraiths first.
I like that it puts together the endings of Proph and Factions. I learned my lessons bringing my characters through those chapters.
I am usually available at night to help people if they need it.

Confusion of Minds
14-08-2007, 16:01
The second to last mission certainly shouldn't be dumbed down, It should stay the way it is, the most challenging part of the mission isn't killing the bosses but closing the rifts.

Master Feathers
14-08-2007, 16:36
This mission is indeed a pain but with the correct set up I have successfully beat the thing with just heroes and henchies. I don't think that it needs to be toned down. Agreeed Shiro is a royal pain but you can make him pretty much kill himself. Skills that work great on him and these are to name a few. Try taking two memers with you and a nec and just use this simple strategy. Hit him hard and fast and keep any sort of hex and degen on him that you can always keep him going backwards. I've beaten him without ever worrying about having to knocking him out of his healing stance.

Empathy
Spiteful Spirit
Spoil Victor
Get a deep wound on him ( reduce that huge life bar )
Degen the hell out of him ( poison, bleeding, hexes )
Interupts ( Henchies are great at this, they can sometimes get his impossible odds or even a good PC mesmer can hurt him this way )

Just a few suggestions and things I've tried but it's not an impossible mission, its a pain in every sense of the word but after a few trys it's not really much of a challenge in normal mode you'll have a system down.

Taurucis
14-08-2007, 17:16
I say it should be. My ranger was stuck here for 2, maybe 3 weeks, and my ele was stuck for one. I've tried it with friends, PuGs, and H/H. In the end I decided to hire a runner for both(Way to waste 30k, Anet, stop making impossible missions) instead of wasting more time here.

I don't want a job, I want something enjoyable, and impossible missions aren't enjoyable.

Why should a party setup, which has gotten me through most of Tyria, Cantha, and a good portion of Elona have to be changed just because Anet wants to be jerks?

The reason why there are so many "No" votes is because all the people who would have voted "Yes" are too busy trying, and failing, to complete this mission.

ArichValtrahn
14-08-2007, 17:19
This mission is indeed a pain but with the correct set up I have successfully beat the thing with just heroes and henchies. I don't think that it needs to be toned down. Agreeed Shiro is a royal pain but you can make him pretty much kill himself. Skills that work great on him and these are to name a few. Try taking two memers with you and a nec and just use this simple strategy. Hit him hard and fast and keep any sort of hex and degen on him that you can always keep him going backwards. I've beaten him without ever worrying about having to knocking him out of his healing stance.

Empathy
Spiteful Spirit
Spoil Victor
Get a deep wound on him ( reduce that huge life bar )
Degen the hell out of him ( poison, bleeding, hexes )
Interupts ( Henchies are great at this, they can sometimes get his impossible odds or even a good PC mesmer can hurt him this way )

Just a few suggestions and things I've tried but it's not an impossible mission, its a pain in every sense of the word but after a few trys it's not really much of a challenge in normal mode you'll have a system down.

Well said.

With the right strategy this mission is not very difficult to master in normal mode. I beat it a few times with hench and heroes as well. Of course, I have found its harder with actual players cause they dont do what I tell them to. ;)

TheSonofDarwin
14-08-2007, 17:55
Perhaps part of the issue is that this mission isn't your typical grab 3 wars, 3 SF eles, and 2 monks and gogogo. I'm sure you can probably beat it with this type of team, but I'm not so sure it'd be easy and I'd hate to be one of the monks when the burning starts to spread.

Mesmer (w/ fast cast rez chant), and 2 Necros (NOT MM) alone are enough to bring Shiro down.


After people fail it the first time I think they misinterpret why they failed. They think, "Ok. We died almost instantly, we need more defense." That will only doom one for failing more in future attempts. 2 monks are all you need. If more than one person dies at a time to impossible odds, I invite your team to review the very limited range for nearby - Isle or Wiki will suffice.

You can beat every other enemy leading up to Shiro (as all as Lich) with any random build you throw together, so you are free to build purely to shut down melee, because that is your downfall.

Go to the Priest of Balathazar. Look at all of those spells that mess with melee - there are too many to even count. % miss? Good. Next attack fails and damages? Excellent. Damage per attack? Wonderful. Blind? As long as warriors/rangers aren't your primary damage dealers, who cares if your necros/mesmers/monks are blinded? Spam blind him, it's less he will hit you and spells don't need vision to land.

I've beaten Shiro with just 3 spells: Ineptitude, and/or Clumsiness (w/ MoR), and Spoil Victor. 3 of the dozens of melee shutdown skills - just think how easy it would be if you had more.

Also, if you are one of the classes that aren't a major downfall to Shiro (D/A/R/P), you have a secondary. Play entirely off your secondary if you have to. Don't think you should have to? Well I don't think as a monk I should have to heal or prot every group/area I enter into, but we do what we have to to get by the best we can.

Give Shiro Meditation back and I would say it needs toned down. Give him Echoing Banishment back that teleports you to a narrow corridor filled with torment claws that you have to run past, then maybe. Just remember, he is already severely toned down.

NeferJackal
14-08-2007, 18:02
If anything, the difficulty of Gate of Madness should be increased. Its too easy, and very much henchable.

WingspanTT
14-08-2007, 18:05
This mission is mean but honestly as long as your team knows the following:

1. Dont over aggro titans
2. Kill Lich by himself if possible, use lots of degen at the door
3. Ignore Shiro and cap every shrine (I find if you bring ritualist spirits and cast them at each shrine, when your party runs, shiro stays behind and attacks the spirits till they die, buying you some time)
4. Once you have every blessing, pwn shiro, specifically use wild X to end stances, and don't put blind burning or deep wound on him once he's low on health

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 18:11
on the titan front, another thing to keep in mind is to fight 1, kill what it spawns, kill what that spawns, then move on to the next titan. For me, it is all about patience.

galad
14-08-2007, 18:25
Why should a party setup, which has gotten me through most of Tyria, Cantha, and a good portion of Elona have to be changed just because Anet wants to be jerks?

Personally I think mission is well done when it is necessary for you to change your party setup :rolleyes:

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 18:56
Personally I think mission is well done when it is necessary for you to change your party setup :rolleyes:

I agree. Part of what drew me to GW was the ability/necessity to adapt my skill bar.

Taurucis
14-08-2007, 19:07
Personally I think mission is well done when it is necessary for you to change your party setup :rolleyes:

Should you be FORCED to change your party setup against your will?

Is this boot camp or a MMO? :rolleyes:

ailar
14-08-2007, 19:16
...

3. Ignore Shiro and cap every shrine (I find if you bring ritualist spirits and cast them at each shrine, when your party runs, shiro stays behind and attacks the spirits till they die, buying you some time)
...

The same thing applies for Necro minions. And since you have to kill a bunch of baddies anyway to cap a shrine, there should be enough opportunity to summon a few each time.

Cthulhu Reborn
14-08-2007, 19:22
Ok, I've done this mission with all my 12 characters and am still helping guildies with it.

What you need is a SS necro and an MM necro. Dom Mesmer with empathy helps a lot too and please take a protter with you. Take also a warrior who can tank (glads defense helps for example) and with wild blow.

This works every time. Shiro attacks minions before players. He goes for the weakest. Ritu and Ranger spirits have this effect aswell.
And take a protter against spike damage from the lich, don't go with 2 healers.

The SS necro should also take insidious parasite and some cover hexes and empathy is also clear. Shiro dies without a problem while he is chasing minions and spirits.

TheSonofDarwin
14-08-2007, 19:29
Should you be FORCED to change your party setup against your will?

Is this boot camp or a MMO? :rolleyes:

On the flip side, should the game be so easy that you can close your eyes, choose skills, and be able to complete anything in the game? For almost every area, you can. What we should be rallying for is every area of the game be more like GoM where you have to think. The game is supposed to be at least a little about skill. As an almost purely PvE player I find this aspect of the game requires very little, and whenever it does people are so shocked it's like deer in the headlights as to what to do next.

:undecided: Do people actually want a game you can mindlessly press 1-8 and win? Where is the sense of achievement in that?

Zahra
14-08-2007, 19:58
I did it with an all h/h party, with non-runed heroes. I am a mesmer. There was no way I was going to Shiro without Empathy. After a few tries, I decided to bring the following:

Heroes/henches: 3 monks, 1 ranger w/BHA, 2 wars (1 w/Wild Blow), 1 dervish.
Me: Empathy, Wastrel's Worry, and my usual Dom/Cry of Pain/Insp. build (CoP, Backfire, WW, EFeast, Empathy, Power Spike, PDrain, Rez)

Slow, pull and keep aware of neighboring groups were my by-words for the beginning. Kill only the Shiroken in front of you, the back ones can be left in peace. For the portals, take your time (wait for the spawns to leave the portal so you only have the wraiths to kill), try to close the easy ones first. You can take your time to regroup, regen, etc. Do not be afraid to run away and come back if you start having too much losses. Kill the Lich (Let Shiro beat on you, he's not that dangerous at full health). Grab the portals. Two of them will be far enough for Shiro to leave you in peace if you back off at the far side of the room. Go to the doorway you came in and bring Shiro with you. You want to be far enough that Shiro cannot go much further and just close enough so he doesn't go back in. For a caster, your aggro bubble should barely touch the doorway itself. Disable all condition causing skills on your heores (Shiro will give the conditions back to the heroes when activating impossible odds). Spam WW, Empathy and CoP until he starts on Impossible Odds (IO). When he does, cast Empathy right after he casts IO. You should see yellow numbers flying off the screen. Continue spamming WW if you have the energy. He should be dead shortly.

For the record, I beat Abbaddon with the same set-up.

Taurucis
14-08-2007, 20:00
On the flip side, should the game be so easy that you can close your eyes, choose skills, and be able to complete anything in the game? For almost every area, you can. What we should be rallying for is every area of the game be more like GoM where you have to think. The game is supposed to be at least a little about skill. As an almost purely PvE player I find this aspect of the game requires very little, and whenever it does people are so shocked it's like deer in the headlights as to what to do next.

:undecided: Do people actually want a game you can mindlessly press 1-8 and win? Where is the sense of achievement in that?

Have you ever tried choosing skills and playing GW with your eyes closed? :laugh:

There are some GW players who do not want to spend hours thinking up the correct build to even have a chance of passing a mission.

If every area was like GoM, I think you'd lose a good chunk of player base. Not everyone has 8+ hours to waste failing a game.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 20:05
My normal grouping was me, Olias as a N/Me(Spoil Victor/empathy/WW), TOF general with wild blow, conditional ranger, devona (holds shiros agro in doorway), kihm,mhenlo,sogolon

To be honest, this was my normal grouping for quite a while, though I might change Olias to a mm at times. I don't know why, maybe it is the hair, but I rarely use Master of Whispers.

allinuff
14-08-2007, 20:07
I'm all up for casual gaming but this isn't something that needs change.

You only need to play it once or twice to understand how to beat it really. I packed mostly Shiro hate the first time I played it after hearing people QQ'ing about getting Shiro-*****. Beat it first try.

Thing is, Shiro doesn't change his skill bar. Same applies to all the creeps there. Because of this, I don't think it requires any tone down.

PS: How come "r*ped" is an illegal word? :shocked:

redneck
14-08-2007, 20:12
i voted no because there is nothing wrong with that mission. ive done it twice the first time i got masters on the first try and not a single player died while doing so. second time we had some players run off on their own causing a wipe but 2 kicks and new players later we were on our way.

if the mission is really causing that many problems for you go with someone that knows what their doing and follow their instructions exactly.

***EDIT***
just an additional bit of info for those that think that this mission takes so long i got masters in less than 20 minuets the first time with a group of full humans using this build.

AxMRbiMlH+KgxvQ+4bIWYXMB

cut paste in any GW build's site to see it.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 20:13
Have you ever tried choosing skills and playing GW with your eyes closed? :laugh:

There are some GW players who do not want to spend hours thinking up the correct build to even have a chance of passing a mission.

If every area was like GoM, I think you'd lose a good chunk of player base. Not everyone has 8+ hours to waste failing a game.

I don't know about choosing skills with my eyes closed, but I will engage an enemy group and walk away while my heroes and hench kill everything.

I don't know if everything should be as hard as GoM, but the difficulty should build as you get closer to the end of the game. I think part of the problem is the sudden change in difficulty. The game allows players to brute force their way through most of it, so that when you do hit a difficult section you are not prepared and do become frustrated. Part of my enjoyment is needing to figure out how to play a difficult section.

I have talked with some of my friends, wondering if the game has gotten easier, or after playing since the start, we just understand the mechanics better now. I remember the first time I made it to the desert and got stomped by the hydra boss on the way to Augury. Now I laugh at those pitiful creatures because I know to carry anti ele equipment and skills. I've killed Shiro and the Lich before, and fought titans and portal wraiths, so I applied what I knew, and it has worked ever since.

tawainai daemon
14-08-2007, 20:29
Just wondering...to those who has been on this forum for a long time.
Did a thread similar to this appeared 2 years ago when Thunderhead Keep is like the Gate of Madness of today?

Tips on killing Shiro:
Pull him alone outside of the entrance to the temple and fight him there.
It should not be hard to pull since Shiro has a bigger Aggro range then Lich.
If you fight him outside the entrance it is not that hard to kill him.
All of my PuG are successful at killing him even when half out us is at 60% DP.
We just died to Lich later on when we try to do master.
Cannot quite ignore the 300+ damage :sad:

Taurucis
14-08-2007, 20:31
Just wondering...to those who has been on this forum for a long time.
Did a thread similar to this appeared 2 years ago when Thunderhead Keep is like the Gate of Madness of today?

If memory serves me right there used to be just a couple... although not as many as ones about GoM.

Seef II
14-08-2007, 20:36
The mission's not what I'd call difficult. Once you get the hang of it, it's henchable every time. I took my ranger through it last week, and having not done it in ~3 months, I had to resign out around 3 times because of popups I don't remember being there, but after remembering the positions of those, I cruised through the portals and Shiro+Lich.

allinuff
14-08-2007, 20:36
Actually the game didn't get easier. If anything it got harder. But... now we have heroes, henchies with better bars, better GUI and AI to work with.

Can you believe there were days when skill activation doesn't have a bar? Henchies charge forward when you pull with a bow? Mhenlo and Alesia tanking Jade armors? Henchies prefer to stay in the lava? Those things alone make you want to scream your lungs out. :azn:

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 20:37
Just wondering...to those who has been on this forum for a long time.
Did a thread similar to this appeared 2 years ago when Thunderhead Keep is like the Gate of Madness of today?

There were a bunch about THK. I believe it used to be referred to as the noobkiller.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 20:38
Actually the game didn't get easier. If anything it got harder. But... now we have heroes, henchies with better bars, better GUI and AI to work with.

Can you believe there were days when skill activation doesn't have a bar? Henchies charge forward when you pull with a bow? Mhenlo and Alesia tanking Jade armors? Henchies prefer to stay in the lava? Those things alone make you want to scream your lungs out. :azn:

What about leveling so that you could get skill points to change your skill bar, that was the worst.

ccrazool
14-08-2007, 20:48
My secret recipe for Shiro:

Warrior. Bonetti's Defense + Defensive Stance + "Furious" modded weapon.
Dunkoro. Mix of heal/prot.

The rest of the party does their thing, and leaves Shiro to me. I post my Dunky away a bit, so he can come toss a heal from time to time, and the remainder of the party goes and takes on the shrines. Bonetti's + Defensive Stance = 100% coverage of 75% blocking.

Shiro can't proc Impossible Odds if he doesn't hit his target.

Sure, sometimes he gets away, heh, that's a bit of fun. But usually, that's all we need to accomplish this mission.

allinuff
14-08-2007, 20:56
What about leveling so that you could get skill points to change your skill bar, that was the worst.

Yeah so glad they removed it for good. If anything that's a hindrance. But back then you're allowed to redistribute out of town too with those. :grin:

margretli
14-08-2007, 20:58
There were a bunch about THK. I believe it used to be referred to as the noobkiller.

Oh THK! I remember those were the days! I like healing in there. Used to be my favorite pass time. :grin:

majoho
14-08-2007, 20:58
Should you be FORCED to change your party setup against your will?

Is this boot camp or a MMO? :rolleyes:
Actually yes you should.

Taurucis
14-08-2007, 21:01
Actually yes you should.

Someone's grudging ;D

Imagine Gate of Madness with the henchmen back in 2005.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 21:03
Yeah so glad they removed it for good. If anything that's a hindrance. But back then you're allowed to redistribute out of town too with those. :grin:

that is true, and I would sometimes. Talk about stifling creativity though.

ferralboy
14-08-2007, 21:08
Oh THK! I remember those were the days! I like healing in there. Used to be my favorite pass time. :grin:

I think THK almost made me cry. I just remember my pug breaking down and not focusing and getting wiped by the mesmer mursaat boss i think.

ccrazool
14-08-2007, 22:04
Lol

"Forced" to change your party build = good PvE.
Using the same party build through the entire game = "click button, get prize"

TheSonofDarwin
14-08-2007, 22:17
If every area was like GoM, I think you'd lose a good chunk of player base. Not everyone has 8+ hours to waste failing a game.

I agree, but only because Anet set a ridiculous standard. If they would have designed all of their missions to be progressively more challenging, by the time people reached GoM, or another "hard" mission it wouldn't be perceived as such because their previous experiences would have taught them how to play the game when challenges arise.

Like someone said above, and I'd gamble 95% of the game is like this - you can grab your heroes and hench, engages, and forget about what you are doing. You don't even have to fight yourself and you can still beat every area (aside from the endgame/elite areas). People who have only played the other, far easier parts of the game probably see GoM as the hardest thing they've ever encountered. I have a feeling that people who've done GoA, Urgoz, Deep, UW, and FoW might see GoM at the appropriate level of difficulty, what the other areas should strive to attain.

*pout* I wish I were a level designer :smiley:

Taurucis, I do completely see where you are coming from. My proposal rather than making this mission easier is to make the previous missions more challenging. I don't see that happening, though :laugh:

ArichValtrahn
14-08-2007, 22:24
Im having flash backs of the old "Thunderhead Keep is too hard!" days.

Edit - lol, so is everyone else. Dont mind me.

allinuff
14-08-2007, 22:29
Lol

"Forced" to change your party build = good PvE.
Using the same party build through the entire game = "click button, get prize"

Haha... that cracked me up. :grin:

But then again, there are people playing the game for relaxation hence the less amount of thinking the better. :wink:

BladeDVD
14-08-2007, 23:08
But then again, there are people playing the game for relaxation hence the less amount of thinking the better. :wink:
That's why we have a wiki. :wink:

I can go on about how easy it is for me to do this mission with hero/hench, but that's only true because some real nice people put up all those suggestions on the wikis. :laugh:

Roi
15-08-2007, 00:22
Im having flash backs of the old "Thunderhead Keep is too hard!" days.

Edit - lol, so is everyone else. Dont mind me.
And look what happened :[

Marveric
15-08-2007, 01:25
Have you ever tried choosing skills and playing GW with your eyes closed? :laugh:

There are some GW players who do not want to spend hours thinking up the correct build to even have a chance of passing a mission.

If every area was like GoM, I think you'd lose a good chunk of player base. Not everyone has 8+ hours to waste failing a game.

Seriously, if you don't want to put any thought in and just press random buttons and expect to accomplish something, you need to just uninstall the game and stop screwing up the GW population for those of us who actually want to accomplish something. Right now getting through some HM missions is damn impossible because hero + hench doesn't cut it and I can't rely on other people in the mission because most of them are like you, who don't want to spend some time to think and change.

Taurucis
15-08-2007, 03:32
Seriously, if you don't want to put any thought in and just press random buttons and expect to accomplish something, you need to just uninstall the game and stop screwing up the GW population for those of us who actually want to accomplish something. Right now getting through some HM missions is damn impossible because hero + hench doesn't cut it and I can't rely on other people in the mission because most of them are like you, who don't want to spend some time to think and change.

Did I say that GW should be pressing random buttons? I didn't say that GW should become a medieval DDR.

Read a little closer. I was saying that GoM needs to be toned down, not all of GW.

You think I don't spend any time on thinking and changing? Looks like I must have gotten a runner for my 190 fame...

jerseyjoe
15-08-2007, 04:21
Shiro doesn't care how much fame you have in Madness. Many people have made it through that mission. Difficult? Yes. Needs to toned down? No. Look at the bright side .... after you get through Madness you can pay someone to do the final mission while you stand around and yawn.

seamussheridan
15-08-2007, 04:25
It is not that difficult a mission. In my opinion getting masters on Gate Of Pain is harder.

If you've tried it a few times and cannot figure it out, there is always the various wiki's.

If anyone wants help pm me on the forums or ingame, and I will get you through the mission for no charge.

Rue The Day
15-08-2007, 08:03
No, I don't think it should be toned down. It's really not that hard. Just use pulling and common sense. As for Shiro...considering he can be solo'd with an assassin, I wouldn't say he is too hard lol

SpongeBob
15-08-2007, 11:34
The reason why there are so many "No" votes is because all the people who would have voted "Yes" are too busy trying, and failing, to complete this mission.

Give that boy a cupie doll for the funniest reason people voted no. lmao

karadoc
15-08-2007, 12:39
The reason why there are so many "No" votes is because all the people who would have voted "Yes" are too busy trying, and failing, to complete this mission.I was thinking that the reason there are so many "Yes" votes might be that all the people who think the game is too hard are on the forums complaining about it, while everyone else is just playing the game and enjoying the challenge...

Tom Nook
15-08-2007, 13:57
You're kidding? I got through that first try. All it took was a MM back in the day when they could have unlimited pets.:rolleyes: I later went back and did it with my heroes/henchies and it was a blast.

I'm totally serious. None of the PUGs that I grouped with were able to get through it, with or without the bonus.

Fortunately, I didn't make the same mistake with the Gates of Madness mission. :smiley:


My secret recipe for Shiro:

Warrior. Bonetti's Defense + Defensive Stance + "Furious" modded weapon.
Dunkoro. Mix of heal/prot.

Not so secret I'm afraid, I used the same recipe (though I improvised and took Tahlkora instead of Dunkoro). :cutie:

WingspanTT
15-08-2007, 16:47
REally another big deal is to make sure EVERYONE in your group knows exactly what is going to happen, and it helps if everyone has lightbringer 3 or 4, to make things easier vs all the torment creatures.

Erszebeth
15-08-2007, 17:02
Come ON ! This mission is easy enough if you know what to expect. I have passed seven characters in GoM with only heroes/hench. You only need Olias with spoil victor and Koss with wild blow. Pin koss' flag to the entrance, pin the two others heroes back and pin the rest of the henches back too, but not at the same place. That way, when Shiro teleports, he only attacks a part of your party.

Pull Shiro and only Shiro, kill him then pull the lich. Easy. It's even easier if your character is a mesmer with wastrel's worry.

Aretelio
15-08-2007, 17:29
It's not called 'Gate of Madness' for nothing! Tone it down? No way!

WingspanTT
15-08-2007, 17:40
I have a little comment that will save everyone here a lot of time:

The next time you are planning a poll that says "Tone down Mission or Quest XYZ?" just save your time, the result will be overwhelmingly "no". The only exception I ever saw was when DoA first opened.

Barcardi The Cat
15-08-2007, 21:39
I've got numerous charcaters through this mission and been in guild partys to get others through. It's a challenge but it's easily doable with h&h only. When it first started and there was no wiki guide and anything like that, I done it without all the things that people say now are a must have skill. It took time and lots of swearing but we got past it in the end.

It's hard because it's the second to last mission of the game. I hope they don't do a 'thunderhead keep' and tone it down as it's one of the few challenging missions left in the game (apart from the elite missions).

tommynj
15-08-2007, 21:42
Completed gate of madness 5 times already. It is totally doable so no need to tone it down. Even a caveman can do it!

WingspanTT
15-08-2007, 21:43
to the OP and anyone else who have had a LOT of trouble with this mission:

Just hire me and other posters to do it for you. 10k a run! 30k for masters!

shadowhand
15-08-2007, 21:45
to the OP and anyone else who have had a LOT of trouble with this mission:

Just hire me and other posters to do it for you. 10k a run! 30k for masters!

Alternatively, they could ask politely in game and get hints for beating it or get help if time allows for it...

sorudo
15-08-2007, 21:57
mmm, i've master from the time HM was not even there, and at that time NM was harder then currently.
i think it just depends on how you do the build, becouse that's just crusial in the domain of abadon.(no, not DOA)

if one thing must be toned down then i would say hearth of abbadon, without skilled players it's inpossible to get razah at all.

bellissima
15-08-2007, 22:22
I delayed voting in this poll because I hadn't played this mission recently (or in fact, any mission recently). But last night we took our dependable heroes and completed Masters in hard mode on all 3 missions in Realm of Torment. We were pretty rusty and probably running less than optimal builds on the 6 heroes but were still able to complete it on hard mode first attempt.

So I vote no.

Saucermote
15-08-2007, 22:26
if one thing must be toned down then i would say hearth of abbadon, without skilled players it's inpossible to get razah at all.

I h/h'd this, and only died once, right at the begining because I didn't know about the patrol and got overwhelmed, other than that, the mobs here weren't particularly hard. I found this easier than most of the quests in RoT.

ferralboy
15-08-2007, 22:35
mmm, i've master from the time HM was not even there, and at that time NM was harder then currently.
i think it just depends on how you do the build, becouse that's just crusial in the domain of abadon.(no, not DOA)

if one thing must be toned down then i would say hearth of abbadon, without skilled players it's inpossible to get razah at all.

Me and a guildie took 2 very different approaches to this one. He was running wards and using the ranger spirits to change the damage types. I just went with my normal slug it out build. We both did with just our heroes and henchies. I just make sure I bring a rt secondary along for getting rid of the spirits (with gaze of fury) as i head to razah. oh, and no mm. the minions tend to wander off and agro.

Kendel
15-08-2007, 22:37
I have a little comment that will save everyone here a lot of time:

The next time you are planning a poll that says "Tone down Mission or Quest XYZ?" just save your time, the result will be overwhelmingly "no". The only exception I ever saw was when DoA first opened.

Not really. Eternal Grove hard mode gets my vote.

sorudo
15-08-2007, 23:39
I h/h'd this, and only died once, right at the begining because I didn't know about the patrol and got overwhelmed, other than that, the mobs here weren't particularly hard. I found this easier than most of the quests in RoT.
me visa versa, i did every mission in RoT with h/h, i only neaded a full human party to get razah.

kazmodan
16-08-2007, 00:58
with a warrior who knows what he's doing to knock off shiro's stances....its ok.

otherwise, its a wipe when shiro time comes.

most teams get wiped because of shiro.

perhaps making one of the blessings from the shrines knock of shiro's stances can help ease the pain a little, and invite more types of builds into the area.

seamussheridan
16-08-2007, 04:23
Gaze of Fury is such a great thing to have on a skill bar.

Btw the Heart of Abaddon is really easy now in normal mode.

Barinthus
16-08-2007, 04:26
I voted no.

This game has been dumbed down enough already, don't need any more.

I miss old days when THK was a true test of players' skills and when people actually cringed from doing bonus part of missions in Prophecies.

Kennyc
16-08-2007, 05:21
/not signed

It's easy - You just need to look at what skills the bad guys are using and counter them with your skills, the same as the rest of the missions in this game. If you are using the same build over and over and are failing - duh! Look at the game dont just press C and SPACE over and over.

KyppDuron
16-08-2007, 05:25
no...i henched the mission, so i don't really see what the problem is.

raspberry jam
16-08-2007, 05:29
1: The torment claw portal , that claw + those wraiths + the spawn means you can be guaranteed a TPK if your not careful , and even when you are that section is the longest fight in the area , my question is why? why is that portal so much harder then the restBring lb gaze for win


2: Shiro, need i say more this guy has wiped my party more times then Tony Blair promises feel flat , and i can only give one reason why Shadowstep , the inability to manipulate Shiros postion combined with Impossible Odds , which you have no chocie but to break away from (yeah break away dumb henchies) means your guaranteed a party wipe as wellI've had problems with Shiro in his Canthan incarnation, but never in this mission. Actually Impossible Odds is not the reason you wipe, Battle Scars combined with Impossible Odds combined with big damage is. This is how it happens:

* Shiro enter Battle Scars
* Your party hits Shiro with a big damage thingy like Obsidian Flame or Lightning Orb or whatever
* Due to Battle Scars + big damage, Shiro now have a ton of lifesteal on each hit he makes
* Shiro now uses Impossible Odds to hit everything around him a lot of times, triggering the high lifesteal which in turn leads to mass death

Solution is: put Wild Blow on the tank to knock Shiro out of Battle Scars, and don't use high-damage skills. Instead use things like Empathy and Spiteful Spirit, which have small damage packets but triggers a lot of times, and/or Spoil Victor which is life loss, not damage.

I voted no btw

@Kendel: Eternal Grove in HM isn't hard as long as you are at least 2 human players.

Cérilia
16-08-2007, 10:37
:undecided: Do people actually want a game you can mindlessly press 1-8 and win? Where is the sense of achievement in that?
I'm more looking for relaxation than achievement in a game. So I guess the less I have to think the better I am!

In this mission I had to pay attention and even change one or two skills of my heroes. And at the end I was only happy to see that it was over.

TheSock
16-08-2007, 10:40
Replying to the OP, as I haven't read any of the other posts...

I beat the mission (normal mode) with only my ranger, three heroes, and 4 henchies.

Then, a few hours later, a friend of mine needed help with the mission. I was kinda bugged that I had gone through the trouble of doing it just a few hours earlier but I didn't mind helping if he needed it. I went in with my warrior, his warrior, and a bunch of heroes. We had no problems beating it. I told a fellow guildie about it all and he mentioned doing the same thing for one of his character too.

Didn't bother going for the bonus, but hey, that's what guildies are for.

karadoc
16-08-2007, 12:39
I'm more looking for relaxation than achievement in a game. So I guess the less I have to think the better I am!

In this mission I had to pay attention and even change one or two skills of my heroes. And at the end I was only happy to see that it was over.
By the sounds of things, you'd be better off just watching TV or something. Games are interactive my nature. To play, you have to think.

Cérilia
16-08-2007, 13:15
Games are interactive my nature. To play, you have to think.
Interactive doesn't mean you have to think, it only means that you have to react (and that the program reacts to what you are doing). When I finally find a build I'm happy to just mindlessly use it and to kill as many things as possible in the process.

Cthulhu Reborn
16-08-2007, 17:18
Interactive doesn't mean you have to think, it only means that you have to react (and that the program reacts to what you are doing). When I finally find a build I'm happy to just mindlessly use it and to kill as many things as possible in the process.



This just means that you missed the point

WingspanTT
16-08-2007, 17:39
It's true interactive doesnt mean you HAVE to think, but come on. This is like saying the last boss in Sonic 1 or 2 needs to be toned down because "I played this whole game with rings that made it easier, now I get to the last boss and there's no rings, wtf" "I want to play this way without considering how to overcome the obstacle!"

See you can play however you want but in every game even back to PacMan the rules change (after a certain lvl the power pellets no longer make you immune to ghosts) and you have to adapt or lose. Period. That is what gaming is about, since arcade days. Even in FPS, a lot of people only like to snipe, then complain when they lose to shotguns/flamethrowers/chainsaws in close combat. Guess what, every skill/weapon/strategy has a weak point and just sticking with it out of laziness is OK but WILL NOT work everywhre.