[XoO]vs.[Rawr]

[Tsai Cooper]

Its on now(started at 9:59 EST in observer mode).

Not a fan of the A/W's gank from [XoO](he's from [DF]). TS with AoD? Shadow Walk and dash, or recall. W/e he performed well, i just didnt like his build. It was funny watching him train there blind bot when she had the flag aroun 9:19.

Props to said blind bot, handled the double whammy pressure well, gailed the w/d when he was retreating to squeeze out another power shot :grin: .(9:40- 11:00?)

Where was the res of David the tester[Rawr]? He died around 14:40 and got shrined at 16:00. Long time, though okay i guess since they were pretty near that hall([Rawr]'s) by then.

[XoO] At 18:02(:01?) From a resign.

Good match.

[David Holtzman]

The team was too far back to rez me up at that point. For some reason they fell back as I was pushing the flag in, even though they had split off 3 people to kill me. Also, all of XoO was from DF. Xen of Ownslaught is a DF smurf. Didn't help that our mesmer was completely lagging out of the game, but we mostly lost due to positional error.

[Fikusan]

o.0 Xen of Ownslaught is a DF Smurf but they guest real XoO quite a bit... eg Aya... ive also played for ownlaught a few times

[Defending Rohan]

The training of the bsurge was more the fact that rawr sent back alot of their defense to deal with a single sin, so I just kept the bsurge in their base busy while the stand team attempted to wipe [rawr]'s stand team.when their whole base had been cleared.

[rawr] didn't react to split very well at all the whole game and lost all of their NPCs by 6 minutes into the game and let their flagger gain DP numerous times.

Also, the sin bar I am running is, imo, the best solo ganker sin build you can have. It has a teleport that works wonders on collapses, it has a snare(though not a very good one), it has a strong combo, and it has a self heal.

Just my 2 cents.

PS: 1st post, I wonder how long it will take before I offend gaile and get banned.

[David Holtzman]

The placement and number of NPCs on Nomads makes them basically irrelevant. That's one reason we ran it in iA for rspike in GvG. Ignoring the sin was intentional- the idea was that the stand team would wipe. Trading NPCs for DP on the enemy is more than worth it, especially in Nomads. I wasn't on the stand team though, so I can't really tell you why it didn't work. I can tell you that the constant rending touch was making it very hard for our bsurge to do anything.

[Monstrum]

Also, the sin bar I am running is, imo, the best solo ganker sin build you can have. It has a teleport that works wonders on collapses, it has a snare(though not a very good one), it has a strong combo, and it has a self heal.


let me guess...

shadow prison, tiger stance, black lotus, twisting, black spider, BoS, exposed, feigned/restful?
OR
shadow prison, tiger stance, black lotus, horns, black spider, BoS, impale, feigned/restful?

[David Holtzman]

AoD, shadowy burden. The rest you have though.

[Monstrum]

why shadowy burden apart from the cast time? the damage gain is absolutely minimal considering 90% of ur damage is armor ignoring... those npcs arent going anywhere, and expose is far better vs players

[Tsai Cooper]

David i totally agree about the nomads thing.

Krul, 2 things:

let me guess...

shadow prison, tiger stance, black lotus, twisting, black spider, BoS, exposed, feigned/restful?
OR
shadow prison, tiger stance, black lotus, horns, black spider, BoS, impale, feigned/restful?
A/W/Mo?
And couldnt you have just read my first post?
Rohan, imo, moebius just destroys that.
A/mo 11+1+1 dagger 12+1 critical 6 healing
w/e lead(i use leaping so i can cripple a player occasionally, but a straight gank might lend itself to jagged strike)
exhausting assault
moebius
death blossom, or critical strike(DPS vs. infinte energy)
restful
shadow walk
dash
res sig or mending touch(so you dont have to limp away after those rangers again.)

[Defending Rohan]

The placement and number of NPCs on Nomads makes them basically irrelevant. That's one reason we ran it in iA for rspike in GvG. Ignoring the sin was intentional- the idea was that the stand team would wipe. Trading NPCs for DP on the enemy is more than worth it, especially in Nomads. I wasn't on the stand team though, so I can't really tell you why it didn't work. I can tell you that the constant rending touch was making it very hard for our bsurge to do anything.

We realized you guys would completely ignore our split from the beginning, seeing as how rawr rarely ever deals with splits effectively. The First 2 NPC's on nomads you can afford to lose, but if you lose your inner NPCs we can mantain a threat on the lord, and mantain a threat on your flagger. Perhaps one of the reasons you could never get anything accomplised was due to the fact that the stand team had to consistently go back and assist the flagger.

You can only ignore the split for so long.

Also, the AoD Bar is:

AoD, Shadowy Burden, Black Lotus, Twisting Fangs, Black Spider, Horns of the Ox, Tigers Stance, and Feigned Neutrality.

Shadowy burden is simply there to be a hex and the + dmg certainly does help when ganking NPCs.

Moebius Sins are killed so easily they can't possible be relied on to be effective solo gankers. Another thing you have to take into consideration when playing a sin is effectively collapsing, which isn't that good on a Mob Sin because he has only Shadow Walk, which any smart team will kill. Yes a mob sin does do more damage, but it does it over a longer period of time. When you are attempting to gank a base you want things to get done quickly and efficiently. Also your Mob sin doesn't have a deep wound OR horns of the ox, therefore it is terrible.

~For Rohan!

[Tsai Cooper]

Moebius Sins are killed so easily they can't possible be relied on to be effective solo gankers. Another thing you have to take into consideration when playing a sin is effectively collapsing, which isn't that good on a Mob Sin because he has only Shadow Walk, which any smart team will kill. Yes a mob sin does do more damage, but it does it over a longer period of time. When you are attempting to gank a base you want things to get done quickly and efficiently.
Not entirely. A good moebiuser will see to it all his attack skills are recharged and his energy is full at the end of a kill, whereas you had to wait for ts to recharge. an A/mo moebiuser while lacking feigned's +armor, has a much more potent, and more upkeepable heal, and since good damage is armor ignoring feigned wont do much. With minor dag and cs, vitae's, survivors, and a sup vig i have a 610 health moebiuser, show me the one player (barring an unforeseen split that leaves him(the sin) outnumbered. that has a build that could kill that. i can put a spear of defense and a shield with the +45 enchant and have 625 health with +13 armor, not including the shields inscription. On shadow walk your right i guess, but its only dervs that are packing a fool proof stance ender in the meta.

[Defending Rohan]

Your Mob sin does very little damage compared to the hex combo chain, is weaker on collapses, and is alot easier to kill.

I still don't understand how you think it can be a good bar when it is lacking a deepwound.

[David Holtzman]

The First 2 NPC's on nomads you can afford to lose, but if you lose your inner NPCs we can mantain a threat on the lord, and mantain a threat on your flagger.

One sin with feigned is no threat at all on the lord. The lord does too much damage- he'll kill the sin, not the other way around. Cleaning up NPCs on Nomad is pointless since the stand is so out of the way.


Perhaps one of the reasons you could never get anything accomplised was due to the fact that the stand team had to consistently go back and assist the flagger.

No, assisting the flagger is fine. The problem was that you punished us for moving, but we didn't punish you for it. That was what decided the match, not the silly ganking.

[Tsai Cooper]

how is it so much easier to kill?
and can we take it to the dummies outside the temple?
equal speed on 60, or very close
on 80 and 100 you have me beat but i'm still more versatile in my opinion
but you know what
you were the guy good enough to get to "top matchs" in observer mode, not me
so i'll shut up

[Defending Rohan]

One sin with feigned is no threat at all on the lord. The lord does too much damage- he'll kill the sin, not the other way around. Cleaning up NPCs on Nomad is pointless since the stand is so out of the way.


Thats my point, a sin CAN'T kill the lord. However, [rawr] sent back a bsurge every time I got even close.

[Tsai Cooper]

Thats my point, a sin CAN'T kill the lord. However, [rawr] sent back a bsurge every time I got even close.

that was a tactical error
Rawr should have realized rohan was no threat and just let him kill npcs
the blindbot is an essential utility not something to be wasted on a gank.

[Yue]

If you plan on ignoring the split and wiping the stand team, don't send the bsurge back.

[Ackmed]

this convo is pretty much pointless now since NPCs actually matter now so the strat is bad either way

[Tsai Cooper]

how so? they jsut do more damage to guild lord, only has power in VoD. if anything that means the gank will see more play
guilds will have to balance winning before the new, potent and early vod with an effective split against the possibility OF vod.

[Yue]

He meant that rawr's strat to deal with the split was bad either way.

[David Holtzman]

No, wiping the stand team and sacrificing NPCs is a fine plan, it just doesn't work when you don't wipe the stand team. Again, I was flagging so I didn't get a chance to see why kills weren't being made at the stand, but the overall plan is sound.

[Defending Rohan]

No, wiping the stand team and sacrificing NPCs is a fine plan, it just doesn't work when you don't wipe the stand team. Again, I was flagging so I didn't get a chance to see why kills weren't being made at the stand, but the overall plan is sound.

I see too many "what if's" in that plan to actually make it a sound plan.

[Yue]

I was at the stand, and I can tell you why kills weren't being made. With the argument of wiping the stand team and sacrificing npcs, you're overlooking some very important things. First of all, with a dedicated split, the stand team is designed to be defensive. The offense on the stand team pushes when the split collapses with it, or when the opposing team sends enough defense back so that the stand team can overpower the opposing team without the split. You're not going to easily wipe a stand team playing defensively, and by attempting to do so plays right into goal of the splitters. By losing almost all the npcs that early in the game, you were forced to send defense to the lord room or else the split can threaten the lord directly with more offense. Eventually you were forced to send your bsurge back since by sacrificing the npcs early, you don't have any more npc support for defense. Sending the bsurge back may be the only option you have, but without it your build loses almost all of it's defense, and your stand team is forced to fall back. When that happens and the match is a forced 8v8, you also run into the problem of having difficulty pushing the opposing team out since you no longer have npc support.

Wiping the stand team and sacrificing npcs might be a fine plan against LS or another team with byob, but it's terrible and unreliable for dealing with a real split. A good team is not going to sit there and let you wipe them, since the stand team's sole job is to stall until the opposing team reacts to the split. Assuming that you'll wipe the stand team is the common mentality, but a bad one.

[Tsai Cooper]

I was at the stand, and I can tell you why kills weren't being made. With the argument of wiping the stand team and sacrificing npcs, you're overlooking some very important things. First of all, with a dedicated split, the stand team is designed to be defensive. The offense on the stand team pushes when the split collapses with it, or when the opposing team sends enough defense back so that the stand team can overpower the opposing team without the split. You're not going to easily wipe a stand team playing defensively, and by attempting to do so plays right into goal of the splitters. By losing almost all the npcs that early in the game, you were forced to send defense to the lord room or else the split can threaten the lord directly with more offense. Eventually you were forced to send your bsurge back since by sacrificing the npcs early, you don't have any more npc support for defense. Sending the bsurge back may be the only option you have, but without it your build loses almost all of it's defense, and your stand team is forced to fall back. When that happens and the match is a forced 8v8, you also run into the problem of having difficulty pushing the opposing team out since you no longer have npc support.

Wiping the stand team and sacrificing npcs might be a fine plan against LS or another team with byob, but it's terrible and unreliable for dealing with a real split. A good team is not going to sit there and let you wipe them, since the stand team's sole job is to stall until the opposing team reacts to the split. Assuming that you'll wipe the stand team is the common mentality, but a bad one.

your a bit pessimistic as well there, because no matter what, a split lends itself to a wipe.
8>7
but your right about it the strategy of stalling and all that.
a good team WILL deal with the split promptly thus lvling the stand to 7-7.

[happy feet]

I heard from someone that Rawr is signing up for our wintersday gvg tourney for a shot at the 2000k prize, can a member of rawr confirm this please? drop me a message or replay to my thread, thanks

[shardfenix]

I don't watch gvg anymore seeing as how there are only maybe 20 good players total in the top 50 guilds, and they don't play anything interesting. Thanks izzy.

[Wuzzman]

I don't watch gvg anymore seeing as how there are only maybe 20 good players total in the top 50 guilds, and they don't play anything interesting. Thanks izzy.

awww but tehy nurfed hezze's.:rolleyes: