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shardfenix
11-09-2007, 03:48
Last night, my guild proceeded through Underworld, then skipped to halls for 2 fame. Wait, it gets better.

After our win, we got a No Opposing Party. I've had this happen in halls many times before, though it is uncommon. No big deal, we just waited 12 minutes until the next match...and then

We got a second No Opposing Party.

And a third

And a fourth

And a fifth

Here is an unedited (cropped for size, nothing else) screenshot of my /age before the end of the last wait timer. You'll notice this is not PVE tombs because
1: There is a Ghostly Hero
2: There is a Victory Chest
3: There is a timer saying "Time until next mission starts" instead of "time until returned to outpost"
4: There is a score on the screen.
5: Nobody can get a paragon to level 20 and beat tombs in 2 hours 18 minutes, as my /age shows.
6: Nobody plays PVE tombs (kinda like halls I guess)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Shard_Fenix/5nop.jpg

We did manage to get opponents after the 5th NoP, but lost because we lost one monk and we fought dual spiritway, which for some reason still exists.

I have permission from everyone whose name appears in the screen to be posted here.

In case you don't know math or are too lazy to figure it out, we were there 12 minutes for the actual battle, every 12 minutes after that = a single NoP. Computers round down when counting time, so 1h 12m = 72 minutes -12 for the battle = 60 minutes of no groups. 60/12 = 5 nops.

Good game anet, now do you believe people hate halls?

ZaraSaleem
11-09-2007, 04:03
yep, that sure was fun...all that waiting around and all

kongkingx
11-09-2007, 08:50
That what happens when you decide to farm scrubs (aka play at dead times).

Please be competitive and VS good teams.

B Ephekt
11-09-2007, 09:26
This happens a lot now. Even when I've played at 8 or 9pm CST, we get nops and skip to halls for 2 fame wins most of the time. These hours used to be well within prime time.

Playing earlier you just end up facing thumpers on every map, and skipping to halls anyway.

Good teams in HA is kind of a joke now-days.

Laura Fantus
11-09-2007, 09:34
My perspective is coming from a rather casual HA player, but I have been doing so for the past 1.5 years, so I hope it makes sense.

Lately, I find it more and more hard to even find teams at the times I can/want to play PvP (which is often not in EU primetime). Yes, I am one of those unfortunate people who often have to play in PUGs because of my wierd playtimes. At the time I am writing this there is only one halfway populated district in International and less than a dozen people currently not in a group already. Both EU and US zones are devoid of activity as usual. This hasn't always been that way, even at this time of the day.

I would think that a lot of that has to do with GW:EN and pretty much everyone playing it atm except the PvP only players of course.

However, find it more and more hard to do organized PvP lately since overall activity seems to decline, particularly in HA. I can only speculate why this is, but one possible explaination might be that there are not too many new players coming to GW in general, so if players quit HA they don't get replaced by a new generation of players anymore (as seemed to be the case in the past). At least my personal impression is that most teams I am fighting these days are decently experienced (which the odd newbie group in between of course). Which could lead to a very high entry barrier for not-so experienced players since they probably won't win many games having to fight R6+ groups all the time - meaning they probably get frustrated and quit. This has been different in the past, since new players came to HA all the time, so when you played enough and got to say R3 you had lots of unranked groups to win against and build experience and motivation from which made you stay.

If my speculation has some ground it might be not easy to do something about it. In my opinion HA has existed in the past by simply drawing in the same amount of new players as it lost (my guild is full of decently ranked ex-PvPers who tired out of HA and quit it, so this definitely happened). At this stage of the GW lifecycle this model no longer works. Don't ask me what could be done to make the people stay, I have no clue either. I personally still like HA lots, except that it's increasingly hard to even find people for teams if you don't belong to a huge network of HA players (which most casual players obviously won't have).

As I said I have no clue about the state of the high-end section of the PvP community since I don't belong to that segment, but in my opinion that's what is happening in HA in general atm.

Vela
11-09-2007, 13:54
Gave up HA after multiple 1 hour waits in Vault or 2 fame hall skips. I do look forward to another double fame weekend... so I can get my "you know what" and never have to think about zoning in that outpost again.

- Vela

Wuzzman
11-09-2007, 15:11
My perspective is coming from a rather casual HA player, but I have been doing so for the past 1.5 years, so I hope it makes sense.

Lately, I find it more and more hard to even find teams at the times I can/want to play PvP (which is often not in EU primetime). Yes, I am one of those unfortunate people who often have to play in PUGs because of my wierd playtimes. At the time I am writing this there is only one halfway populated district in International and less than a dozen people currently not in a group already. Both EU and US zones are devoid of activity as usual. This hasn't always been that way, even at this time of the day.

I would think that a lot of that has to do with GW:EN and pretty much everyone playing it atm except the PvP only players of course.

However, find it more and more hard to do organized PvP lately since overall activity seems to decline, particularly in HA. I can only speculate why this is, but one possible explaination might be that there are not too many new players coming to GW in general, so if players quit HA they don't get replaced by a new generation of players anymore (as seemed to be the case in the past). At least my personal impression is that most teams I am fighting these days are decently experienced (which the odd newbie group in between of course). Which could lead to a very high entry barrier for not-so experienced players since they probably won't win many games having to fight R6+ groups all the time - meaning they probably get frustrated and quit. This has been different in the past, since new players came to HA all the time, so when you played enough and got to say R3 you had lots of unranked groups to win against and build experience and motivation from which made you stay.

If my speculation has some ground it might be not easy to do something about it. In my opinion HA has existed in the past by simply drawing in the same amount of new players as it lost (my guild is full of decently ranked ex-PvPers who tired out of HA and quit it, so this definitely happened). At this stage of the GW lifecycle this model no longer works. Don't ask me what could be done to make the people stay, I have no clue either. I personally still like HA lots, except that it's increasingly hard to even find people for teams if you don't belong to a huge network of HA players (which most casual players obviously won't have).

As I said I have no clue about the state of the high-end section of the PvP community since I don't belong to that segment, but in my opinion that's what is happening in HA in general atm.

pretty much sum it up. Of course anyone who doesn't have their head prementaly incased sand should have realized this at least a year and a few months ago... sad shardfenix just realized HA was dieing yesterday....

Vela
11-09-2007, 18:57
The problem stemmed from very very beginning...since beta I would say. In early days, the game was little known to most. But, early starters took advantage of existing loopholes and ranked up thus, introducing elitism. However, ANET had several several chances to fix it.

The main thing that killed PvP is "so-called" PvP players community; their attitude played the biggest role supported by ANET's stupidity in promoting the idea PvP>>PvE. ANET should have embraced the fact from the get-go that both are two different styles of gameplay and cater to these two communities differently but, fairly. They tried to cater to the both the same way and resulted in a failure.

- Vel

mmorpg man
11-09-2007, 20:56
what Anet should do is a weekend event which put HA back to the way it was at the start of guildwars. now that there won't be any new professions we might be able to see what needs doing to improve it.

Shuuda
11-09-2007, 22:38
what Anet should do is a weekend event which put HA back to the way it was at the start of guildwars. now that there won't be any new professions we might be able to see what needs doing to improve it.

I don't really see how the new proffessions caused the bad HA mechanics, that would of come down to bad maps, or objectives, which encourage the use of gimmick builds (Sorry if Im wrong, as I know next to nothing about HA). And living in the past is for wimps anyway.

Katy K
12-09-2007, 04:02
what Anet should do is a weekend event which put HA back to the way it was at the start of guildwars. now that there won't be any new professions we might be able to see what needs doing to improve it.

I would reinstall to try that.

Ranger Nietzsche
12-09-2007, 04:04
The problem stemmed from very very beginning...since beta I would say. In early days, the game was little known to most. But, early starters took advantage of existing loopholes and ranked up thus, introducing elitism. However, ANET had several several chances to fix it.

The main thing that killed PvP is "so-called" PvP players community; their attitude played the biggest role supported by ANET's stupidity in promoting the idea PvP>>PvE. ANET should have embraced the fact from the get-go that both are two different styles of gameplay and cater to these two communities differently but, fairly. They tried to cater to the both the same way and resulted in a failure.

- Vel

What killed HA was a stagnant playstyle for the first year and a half, so all the good PvPers realized it was a lesser arena, so all that was left was people farming for Rank, people new to PvP, people who suck at GvG, and people who didn't like GvG. It sucked (Ghostly is a ****ing idiot) and after Nightfall was ridiculous for one week before 6v6.

Then 6v6 made half of the HA players hate it so much that they either quit, or formed crappy GvG guilds, which as the GvG quality dipped became decent GvG guilds.

Some new people liked 6v6 and showed up. Then kill count came and made 6v6 bearable for more people. Then 8v8 came which combined with kill count was ridiculous...and pissed off all the 6v6 fans, but the old 8v8 fans hated the new spike meta and left.

etc.
etc.
etc.

All the game mechanics cater to certain builds which skews the meta. IMO The ONLY way to create an HA w/o a stagnant meta is to get rid of all mechanics in general, and just make it an annihilation tournament all the way to HoH.

The only maps I ever really liked were annihilation, relic run, and kill count during 6v6.

shardfenix
12-09-2007, 05:35
I don't really see how the new proffessions caused the bad HA mechanics, that would of come down to bad maps, or objectives, which encourage the use of gimmick builds (Sorry if Im wrong, as I know next to nothing about HA). And living in the past is for wimps anyway.
Thanks for telling us what made HA bad when, in the same sentence, you say you have little HA experience.

I'll explain

Balanced PvP + Ritualists = Broken PvP
Balanced PvP + Paragons = Broken PvP

Vela
12-09-2007, 14:55
What killed HA was a stagnant playstyle for the first year and a half, so all the good PvPers realized it was a lesser arena, so all that was left was people farming for Rank, people new to PvP, people who suck at GvG, and people who didn't like GvG. It sucked (Ghostly is a ****ing idiot) and after Nightfall was ridiculous for one week before 6v6.

All the game mechanics cater to certain builds which skews the meta. IMO The ONLY way to create an HA w/o a stagnant meta is to get rid of all mechanics in general, and just make it an annihilation tournament all the way to HoH.

The only maps I ever really liked were annihilation, relic run, and kill count during 6v6.


HA was ALWAYS for fame farming. ALWAYS...Period. You can say holding is not farming. Look back at the Ghostly blocking by standing at the middle of altar in early days to hex or deer's paragon battery holding in latter days. Both were ways of farming. If you attach a title to anything, it will be farmed and farmed and farmed and farmed again; and then again!

I agree to the mechanics thing you mentioned. I have done a 12 wins streak in HoH with 11 relic runs and 1 king of the hill. It was simply ridiculous. Amount of relic runs introduced in map rotation is simply idiotic and very very boring. "Annihilation rounds only" may be a solution or may not be at all. I think they need to introduce death penalties in King of the Hill or Relic Run matches. Current form of King of the hill is extremely borring as if you have 7 points with 3 minutes remaining on counter and the opponent is at zero, you practically have nothing to do for 3 minutes. And worse yet, you will then have a 30 minutes wait.

And Gimmicks will always be there, be there killcount or relic runs or simple annihilation. And talking about annihilation and responding to a post by a person from Spearmen, iirc EoE bomb was introduced in HA by Spearmen. :cry:

I don't think HA can be mended, however, getting new people in PvP will be a slow process till old guys stick around. But, things are changing, I am seeing a lot of old folks faded out in HA. In a few months or so, unless ANET fubars again, I do hope new crop of R3's will come up and HA will have more opponents to play against, good or bad.

People need to understand that game does not thrive only because of so-called good people but, mostly because of the mix of good and bad, the mass. If the mass shrinks, the game's shelf-life will also shrink. With Elitism HA died and that's a fact. And it is also true that if you know people in HA, getting to a higher rank is just time investment and nothing else.

- Vela

Wuzzman
12-09-2007, 17:43
Lol, unfortunetly shardfenix and Ranger fails at these type of discussion. They really don't see past their little social circle and thus they miss the point by miles. What killed HA is so simple you couldn't believe it. Its not game mechanics, its not skill balance, its not even heros. Its the fact that new players are not becoming HA'ers. You can NOT keep the old players, that is a fact, and even though plenty of questions of overall quality of HA has been raised and made some long time players leave, ultimately the HEALTH of an arena is dependant on how many NEW PLAYERS THAT JOIN THE GAME!

If people were paying attention they noticed that HA started dieing over a year ago, several months before 6v6. It was gradual, something that you notice and hard to miss. Gradually districts became less and less populated. Then there was 6v6, which really all it did was cause what was going to happen anyway in about 6 month happen in 1 week. Anet change HA to 6v6 because it tried to fix a problem with HA. Which is that new players come and leave the arena in an alarming rate that HA could only hope to decline.

As we all know 6v6 just alienated several players at once, creating a huge exodus. Ha has never recovered or ever will recover. When Anet got around to making Ha back to 8v8 the bar for average groups suddenly rised. Those same r3's lfg were all now r6's. The skill didn't increase but the entry level did. How could HA not but die with BS like that infront of new players faces. Ha only increasing in its unfriendly attitude to the same new players that it needs to live just shows how low the community has gotten. The problem with the pvp community is that it barely thinks outside their own little social circles. The game could be dieing all around them, but as long as they have their perfect mechanics and balance, there is nothing wrong. Its only when they look around and see no one playing with them that the truth dawns on them. The pvp community is simply reaping what they sow.

Anet isn't entirely blame less.
1. They should have kept RA a pve arena. Its a horrible arena and if any player wants to start pvp'ing TA should be the entry point so they won't be shell shocked by what they see in HA.

2. Divided the districts by RANK if they were to have a rank system. Next gen pvp game with none of the next gen logic. Even lesser games have that level of common sense.

3. You should have been able to lose fame when you lose. They should have known players would seperate themselves from other players based on rank, at LEAST make it so that rank has a shred of truth about the players actual win/lose ratio.

4. Joining a guild shouldn't be a matter of spamming on local chat. There should be a lot easier way to join guilds LF players then the current spam in local chat method. Guilds are too important to the game to have the same player finding mechanic as advertising for items.

Vela
12-09-2007, 18:41
Quoted for truth and echoing my opinion...

.... ultimately the HEALTH of an arena is dependant on how many NEW PLAYERS THAT JOIN THE GAME!

Quoted for truth and echoing my opinion again ...

.... How could HA not but die with BS like that infront of new players faces. Ha only increasing in its unfriendly attitude to the same new players that it needs to live just shows how low the community has gotten. The problem with the pvp community is that it barely thinks outside their own little social circles. The game could be dieing all around them, but as long as they have their perfect mechanics and balance, there is nothing wrong. Its only when they look around and see no one playing with them that the truth dawns on them. The pvp community is simply reaping what they sow.

However,

.... They should have kept RA a pve arena. Its a horrible arena and if any player wants to start pvp'ing TA should be the entry point so they won't be shell shocked by what they see in HA.

I do not agree to this. RA was an excellent arena to get acquainted with a build w/o worrying about win or loss. However, with the introduction of Glad title, the situation changed. People started playing "RA Builds". This was a problem that should have been nipped in the bud. However, it was encouraged. People in this very forum told me what to run on a necro in RA and also told me what not to run. Why? Because necros are anti melee and when I play in RA people will expect me to be so.

It may be true statement considering the meta or overall progression of the class in last two years but, for someone playing in RA should use his/her imaginations....and for that matter RA is an excellent arena. It is for tryouts w/o thinking about team synergy or such. It is a good starter ground to learn a few very basic things...like timings, kiting, engaging etc. I always considered it as an arena where you can learn playing dual roles.

TA has absolutely nothing in common with HA. TA is the most unpolluted arena as well. HA is vastly strategy with gimmicks or against gimmicks. The map objectives are repetitive and mostly dull. Present day HA can be compared to DoA in Nightfall...same sh*t again and again and again. If you don't agree to do the same ****, then, of course you will be rolled in underworld.

The Rank system is faulty from the get-go. As I stated earlier an R11 iWay warrior maybe the best killer there is but, I won't depend on his/her ability to keep my toon alive when he/she joins my party as an R11 Monk. If Rank was any indicator of a player's PvP prowess or interest, then they should have attached it to everything PvP or made it class based. I do not know of any other title that has more significance to be class based than HA Hero rank system.

I believe, we are beating a dead horse. I hope ANET does not make the same mistake in GW2.

- Vela

B Ephekt
12-09-2007, 19:01
Its not game mechanics, its not skill balance, its not even heros. Its the fact that new players are not becoming HA'ers.
Your theory is silly. The gameplay, mechanics and heroes are the reason the new players don't stick around. Let's face it, tombs is crap and has been for a long time. It's simply not fun enough to stick around if you don't have the rank.

Shuuda
12-09-2007, 20:10
Why do I get the feeling HA would be more fun if it was just two teams of 8 fighting a bare box room.

Wet One
12-09-2007, 20:45
And Gimmicks will always be there, be there killcount or relic runs or simple annihilation. And talking about annihilation and responding to a post by a person from Spearmen, iirc EoE bomb was introduced in HA by Spearmen. :cry:
- Vela

LoL...

I think you missed it by about a 12+ months on that one.

I think it was Lulu from Te or someone else who used to run EoE bomb before factions even came out. It was a mix of a Me/Mo with vengence or some other party rez, mop, and 1 single ranger usually a couple warriors with charge so they could chain it and get to you ASAP. This is when armor switching was still possible, the mesmers would kill themselves with illuision of weakness, the ranger had frenzy i think, and the infuser just infused himself to death on the hard rez, same with the bip. When done right you could do a double pump EoE bomb on 1 mop, and the matches were like ~20 seconds.

There used to be a video of them running this on multiple maps in tombs on youtube, but i cant seem to find it atm.

Wuzzman
12-09-2007, 22:03
Your theory is silly. The gameplay, mechanics and heroes are the reason the new players don't stick around. Let's face it, tombs is crap and has been for a long time. It's simply not fun enough to stick around if you don't have the rank.

so your telling me that a new player raged HA because killcount is gayer then alter holding? Or ritspike is more imbalanced then paraway? LOl and how does heros make a new player leave HA when its the easiest way for them to get in it? If an arena can't keep new players then it dies. New players only care about getting into a group. Period. Even the average unranked/low ranked pugger doesn't give a damn what new *** mechanic is in Halls when they don't even get past fetid river. Again you have to think past your halls winning circle even if that is hard...

Ra is the garbage that should be left in pve's back yard. Ta is at least organized, forces players to bring builds that actually work together. Hell back in my day Ta teams would require vent. Ta decline happened when AB was invented. Ab is easier and like Ta is the garbage that should be left in pve's backyard.

And yes B Ephekt HA is the crap that rolls at the bottom of ladder lol. You should see HA only guilds gvg, its hilarous when they insist that axe/shock warriors are just pressure.......................................... ..... But it didn't have to be that way. It could have been a place where guilds group could pratice builds and average players can have a quality pvp experience without being in a guild....its sad that it failed. And even sadder that few people know why........Ha may not be important quality wise, but as a measure for the state of pvp as a whole, its a good measurement.

kongkingx
13-09-2007, 01:35
.... ultimately the HEALTH of an arena is dependant on how many NEW PLAYERS THAT JOIN THE GAME!

No IWAY, no more noobs running IWAY, no more noobs to own.

That's right.


I clearly remember during IWAY heydays. American ****ing district can go up to 9. International districts? up to 2.

Now, american district = 1 International district = up to 2.

So let's figure out why HA is dead, shall we?

Cziter
13-09-2007, 01:39
Balanced PvP + Ritualists = Broken PvP
Balanced PvP + Paragons = Broken PvP

agree , Rt and P are imba , weapons that u cant strip , and chants that u cant strip. But the only thing that really broke whole pvp fun was Observer mode. Devs were completly dumb to add OM to specific game like GW.

Vela
13-09-2007, 14:09
LoL...

I think you missed it by about a 12+ months on that one.

I think it was Lulu from Te or someone else who used to run EoE bomb before factions even came out. It was a mix of a Me/Mo with vengence or some other party rez, mop, and 1 single ranger usually a couple warriors with charge so they could chain it and get to you ASAP. This is when armor switching was still possible, the mesmers would kill themselves with illuision of weakness, the ranger had frenzy i think, and the infuser just infused himself to death on the hard rez, same with the bip. When done right you could do a double pump EoE bomb on 1 mop, and the matches were like ~20 seconds.

There used to be a video of them running this on multiple maps in tombs on youtube, but i cant seem to find it atm.

I know what EoE bomb was and who used to run them. And check this out...

"Another success story for The Spearmen is the popular "gimmick" build known as the Edge Bomb. Short for "Edge of Extinction Bomb," the build involves a full party of players designed to kill themselves on short notice, with one player using Mark of Protection to survive the bomb and quickly resurrect his comrades. The death of seven players at once deals a significant amount of damage. This particular build has also received a recent nerf, making it much harder to pull off." [Source: GW Website (http://www.guildwars.com/community/guildweek/gotw-2006-10-10-thespearmen.php)]

And EoE bomb had nothing to do with Factions. It was quite prevalent when Tomb was changed to HA and iWay was at its peek.

- Vela

Wuzzman
13-09-2007, 16:16
No IWAY, no more noobs running IWAY, no more noobs to own.

That's right.


I clearly remember during IWAY heydays. American ****ing district can go up to 9. International districts? up to 2.

Now, american district = 1 International district = up to 2.

So let's figure out why HA is dead, shall we?

on what planet are you smoking....international district was NEVER 2 districts, even during the IWAY season. International district was were players would organize blood spikes, ranger spikes, eoe bombs, vimway, and ranked iway. Not to mention balanced teams.

B Ephekt
13-09-2007, 18:49
so your telling me that a new player raged HA because killcount is gayer then alter holding? Or ritspike is more imbalanced then paraway? No, you just can't read/decided to take what I said out of context.

New players start off, but they never stay because the current players are ranked, and farming fame with gimmicks, so the new players never win. New players don't have a good chance of winning maps like kill count, king of the hill or relic runs, and judging by how many rank whiners this game has, most don't have the motivation to learn.

The mechanics are keeping new players from progressing to a point where they would want to stay.


No IWAY, no more noobs running IWAY, no more noobs to own.

That's right.


I clearly remember during IWAY heydays. American ****ing district can go up to 9. International districts? up to 2.

Now, american district = 1 International district = up to 2.

So let's figure out why HA is dead, shall we?American districts collapsed at one point when all the IWAY scrubs discovered the internetional districts. IDs were never 'just 2' except in the very very beginning, and now of course.

Ranger Nietzsche
13-09-2007, 20:24
I remember being new at HA and balking at the sheer amount of game mechanics and broken strategies surrounding them I had to learn to get higher. And that was just Relic Runs and Altar Holding.

Imagine a new player now, that has to learn the mechanics, mannerisms, gimmicks, and strategies for 2 different Cap Points (which each have their own strategy), relic runs pre HoH, relic running in HoH, and altar holding.

thats a lot to learn, and no one thinks to tell you about them except in the 30 seconds before the match starts.

mmorpg man
13-09-2007, 21:03
thats a lot to learn, and no one thinks to tell you about them except in the 30 seconds before the match starts.

thats why I believe that the only solution (apart from scrapping fame and rank emotes - no support there) is to get Anet to start again from scratch and see what needs doing now that there are no more professions coming. HA has just gone from bad to worse first by the introduction of scrolls to get to elite missions and has now reached rock bottom on usefulness thanks to the loss of favor of the gods (no need when districts can be visited as many times as you like). put it back to how it used to be and let the new generation of PvPers decide whats good and whats bad about it.

Wuzzman
13-09-2007, 21:52
Then we can all agree that Ha should be 8v8 in a very large sand box. B Ephekt you do have a point, there is really just to much a new player has to get used to suddenly. TA used to be not to far from the Ha enivorment but that went to hell when all the idiots discovered that AB is a whole lot easier then Ta. Now Ta is Ra's backyard.

kongkingx
13-09-2007, 23:41
on what planet are you smoking....international district was NEVER 2 districts, even during the IWAY season. International district was were players would organize blood spikes, ranger spikes, eoe bombs, vimway, and ranked iway. Not to mention balanced teams.


oh yea? that was maybe 2nd quarter of 2006 and beyond.

I was talking about 3rd-4th quarter of 2005 up to 1st quarter of 06


American districts collapsed at one point when all the IWAY scrubs discovered the internetional districts. IDs were never 'just 2' except in the very very beginning, and now of course.

No. It collapsed when OoV was ****ed up and intrinsics of the Warrior armor was changed. People thought that IWAY was dead that point. Good thing, Factions came with OoApostasy and IWAY was revived. Then skilled hardcore iwayers from American districts (mostly from Europe) formed IWAY in IDs and newbie iwayers who used to flock the American districts cannot keep up so they changed to noobier (spike) builds or maybe quit the game.

Learn your Tombs history.

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 00:20
The good players were always in ID, from almost the beginning. Way back to the LuLu and Air Jordan days. I was never in the IWAY circles, so I don't know what you guys did.

I remember the pants****ting when OoV was fixed, but the IWAYers were in IDs before that as far as I remember. I remember because everyone would tell them to go back to ADs with the rest of the scrubs.

skilled hardcore iwayersNice oxymoron.

Shuuda
14-09-2007, 00:38
skilled hardcore iwayers

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to put them words in the same sentence together like that.

kongkingx
14-09-2007, 01:26
Wow, I didn't know it was possible to put them words in the same sentence together like that.

If those rank 9+++ IWAYers weren't that skilled then, they would just be farming the first 2 maps and probably be rank 3-6 up to now.

Yes, sometimes you gotta admit that rank/fame equates to skill when almost all of the competitors are running the same build, which was the case before.

please all together now.. SKILLED IWAY PLAYERS.



.. I was never in the IWAY circles, so I don't know what you guys did.

fair enough. now you know :laugh:

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 01:52
The r9+ IWAYers are no more skilled than the r9+ necro spikers. Anyone can get rank with enough time (or an imba build like IWAY was until the nerfs).

Rank doesn't equate to skill. Skill equates to skill, and sometimes also rank. Simply having rank does not mean you're good at the game.

Ranger Nietzsche
14-09-2007, 01:52
Yes, it takes skill at playing IWAY

the problem is that doesn't really equate to skill at playing anything else.

Which, sense IWAY doesn't work, now makes them lacking in any skill at all.


Theoretically, of course. But practically I've met a few people of this type.

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 02:02
I remember when 6v6 first came out and all the IWAYers moved on to other builds. You got to see just how bad those players were at anything but IWAY. And they failed pretty hard at everything... but thumpers.

Wuzzman
14-09-2007, 02:28
oh yea? that was maybe 2nd quarter of 2006 and beyond.

I was talking about 3rd-4th quarter of 2005 up to 1st quarter of 06



No. It collapsed when OoV was ****ed up and intrinsics of the Warrior armor was changed. People thought that IWAY was dead that point. Good thing, Factions came with OoApostasy and IWAY was revived. Then skilled hardcore iwayers from American districts (mostly from Europe) formed IWAY in IDs and newbie iwayers who used to flock the American districts cannot keep up so they changed to noobier (spike) builds or maybe quit the game.

Learn your Tombs history.


hmmmm no. Iway was nerfed 3 times. and each time iway was just as popular as it was before.

kongkingx
14-09-2007, 04:43
Yes, it takes skill at playing IWAY

the problem is that doesn't really equate to skill at playing anything else.

That's what those players want to play and to be good at. Let's relate this to real life.

IRL, a leet chemical engineer will suck if you put him in an operating room and ask him to perform a heart bypass. And a leet chemical engineer is superior to a noob chemical engineer.

Hopefully, you get the point.

Anyway, IWAY seemed "overpowered" before because it sacrificed defense and put those extra to damage output. Then IWAY got nerfed and the overwhelming damage, which was its rationale, was gimped but they kept the build's defense the same(or even lowered, i think, because of the -20 inherent armor vs elemental damage change). Because of that, it became a naturally inferior build compared to balanced setup, which wasn't touched to scale with IWAY changes.


hmmmm no. Iway was nerfed 3 times. and each time iway was just as popular as it was before.


Defining iway nerfs that I remember

- Stacking IAS up to 33%+++(IAS increment depended on each pet died) [THIS Not sure but I heard]
- Stacking IAS upto 33%+ (IWAY+TF)
- Mantra of Resolve nerf (offense trappers who just go within your wards use this)
- Reduced IAS on IWAY (33% -> 25%)
- Gimped traps (esp damage on dust trap and duration of conditions)
- Eviscerate nerf
- EoE nerf
- Heal Party nerf
- OoV+OoP nerf
- Spirits nerf (EoE, NR and others area of effect)
- (if i forgot things, please put here)


and the final blow to IWAY came when Tiger's Fury was changed to 25%.

After the TF change, the W/R was dead and then this steady stance crap **** zerg blow way came into the picture.

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 05:11
That's what those players want to play and to be good at. Let's relate this to real life.

IRL, a leet chemical engineer will suck if you put him in an operating room and ask him to perform a heart bypass. And a leet chemical engineer is superior to a noob chemical engineer.

Hopefully, you get the point.I get the point. GW professions are like real life jobs lol good one.

No, IWAYers were bad at the game. They couldn't play balanced, and even failed at most other gimmicks. Good players, who generally run balanced, can run pretty much any build. There's a huge difference.


Anyway, IWAY seemed "overpowered" before because it sacrificed defense and put those extra to damage output.
Now you're just making stuff up. IWAY was based on overpowered mechanics. Logically, if order and IAS stacking was imbalanced, then so was any build that relied on those mechanics.

kongkingx
14-09-2007, 05:16
I get the point. GW professions are like real life jobs lol good one.

No no. Let's make it a little realistic, shall we?

Say you suck at playing guitar and I can play hendrix with eyes closed, who is more skilled guitarist?

But say you're an experienced drummer, can play Bonham or Moon pieces and you asked me, who never touched a drum stick all my life, to proxy for your band. Will I pull it off?

Come on dude, make a connection. It's not rocket science.


Now you're just making stuff up. IWAY was based on overpowered mechanics. Logically, if order and IAS stacking was imbalanced, then so was any build that relied on those mechanics.


Different builds have purposes. If the purpose of spikes is to catch the infuser offguard and the purpose of balanced is to own virtually every build possible, the purpose of IWAY is to overwhelm people till they piss their pants off and crack from the swings of 33% axe damage, traps and oov, oop. It was not overpowered because there were GREAT guilds who were undefeated versus Great IWAYers, along with the fact that the defense of the build relied on squishy necros with subpar monk spells + traps + crappy regen from IWAY. If it was overpowered, then all of the top guilds in the past should've rapezowned by iway. Only who sucked at the game (THEN) whined.

And if you don't know that, i understand. You weren't into IWAY circles then.

Inside the iway circle then, we know what did what and who's who.

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 05:45
Come on dude, make a connection. It's not rocket science.I get your point, it's just flawed.

A better analogy would be a guitar compared to one of those plastic guitars with the buttons that you buy your 5 year old.


33% axe damage
IAS stacked well beyond 33% back then.


If it was overpowered, then all of the top guilds in the past should've rapezowned by iway.
Something being beatable does not mean it's balanced. It's based on risk:reward and effort:reward. IWAY was high reward for very little risk, skill or effort.

Additionally, the entire build was based on exploiting overpowered mechanics. Unless you want to try and claim that order and IAS stacking were balanced, you can't really prove that IWAY was balanced.


Only who sucked at the game (THEN) whined.
Says you. Kind of funny that the majority of good tombs players hated IWAY, and complained - not because it was hard to beat, but because it gave terrible players a brainlessly easy way to farm fame and devalue what everyone else worked hard for.

kongkingx
14-09-2007, 07:31
IAS stacked well beyond 33% back then.

It stacked beyond 33% when it was just a fun build to play (8 warriors or 7 warriors + 1 necro) for the kicks. and was fixed.

Then the trio of trappers+warriors+necros came after the fix.



Something being beatable does not mean it's balanced. It's based on risk:reward and effort:reward. IWAY was high reward for very little risk, skill or effort.



and if iit's not overpowered, it doesnt necessarily mean that it's balanced. because you're ignoring the possibility that it is underpowered.

The meaning of overpowered is common-sense. If you kill a guild lord using a single skill or you own every team there are using a single build with ease, that's clearly overpowered.

If you lose to 3 groups all of the time even using that overpowered build of yours, well your build is not that overpowered anymore because technically, everybody can now own you. All that the scrubby whiners must do is to play like those 3 groups who always beat you.

It's like defining an uncrackable algorithm. Only 1 solution is needed to say that the algo is crackable and if there are no solutions, it's uncrackable.






Says you. Kind of funny that the majority of good tombs players hated IWAY, and complained - not because it was hard to beat, but because it gave terrible players a brainlessly easy way to farm fame and devalue what everyone else worked hard for.

The only people who hated IWAY were scrubs and spikers. Period.

woot im a warrior
14-09-2007, 07:42
The only people who liked IWAY were scrubs. Period.

Fixed.
1234

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 08:38
It stacked beyond 33% when it was just a fun build to play (8 warriors or 7 warriors + 1 necro) for the kicks. and was fixed.

Then the trio of trappers+warriors+necros came after the fix.Nope, same update as OoV and Eviscerate (http://guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/updatearchive-2006-03.php).


and if iit's not overpowered, it doesnt necessarily mean that it's balanced. because you're ignoring the possibility that it is underpowered.I agree. However, IWAY only worked because it was overpowered. After the nerfs it WAS underpowered, because it was a degenerate build built on exploiting broken mechanics. There's no reason 4 warriors with 2 necros healing them should have worked at that point in the game if it were properly balanced.

And again, if the mechanics the build were based on were overpowered, then the build was as well. If you can't refute this I'm going to have to assume that you're just making up nonsense.


If you lose to 3 groups all of the time even using that overpowered build of yours, well your build is not that overpowered anymore because technically, everybody can now own you. All that the scrubby whiners must do is to play like those 3 groups who always beat you.Sorry, your definition fails.

Rspike was broken and it lost. Signet of Might was broken and it lost. Dervish train was broken and it lost. Incoming chains with Energizing Finale was broken and it lost. Hexway was broken and it lost. Ritspike was broken and it lost. Etc, ad nauseam.

Your definition of overpowered can't account for this, so I think it's safe to say that we can ignore it. In fact, can't think of a single overpowered mechanic in any game that resulted in an unbeatable auto-win every time.

In pretty much every competative game out there, something is considered overpowered when it either limits the other options, or is low risk:high reward, low skill:high reward or low effort:high reward - to the point where the reward is disproportional to the amount of skill or effort it takes to win. IWAY was all of those as it gave very low skilled players the ability to farm massive amounts of fame. Just look at the r9+ IWAYers you mentioned earlier for evidence of this. Most of those r11 and 12 IWAYers are absolutely terrible at the game.



The only people who hated IWAY were scrubs and spikers. Period.Tell that to LuLu, Tommy, Miss Air Jordan, Prav, iQ, EW - hell any of the old ID1 crew who were around before all the scrubs moved on to IWAY after sucking at balanced and spike. Sorry, but you're talking out your *** here; the majority of truly good tombs players hated IWAY. IWAY devalued rank and was brainlessly easy to play. Nobody, good or otherwise, but IWAYers liked it after the initial novelty wore off. And the people who didn't hate it for being overpowered hated it for being the only build your ever fought against.



Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

mmorpg man
14-09-2007, 09:30
Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

plus its pretty pointless talking about a long dead build in a near dead arena. moving on everyone.

like someone said earlier in this thread, obs mode has killed HA by allowing gimmick builds to be known to more people more quickly. I remember going onto obs mode just after unlocking HA to see what works and what doesn't. saw the thumper-heroway build and for the first month or so thats all I used. basically this comes down to human nature that if we find something that works we will continue to use it and exploit it to reap the rewards.

kongkingx
14-09-2007, 15:55
Nope, same update as OoV and Eviscerate (http://guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/updatearchive-2006-03.php).

I agree. However, IWAY only worked because it was overpowered. After the nerfs it WAS underpowered, because it was a degenerate build built on exploiting broken mechanics. There's no reason 4 warriors with 2 necros healing them should have worked at that point in the game if it were properly balanced.



What's the point of having lotsa skills if only certain skills can be used to make a non degenerate build?

All builds are legit. Only scrubs define degenerate builds.



And again, if the mechanics the build were based on were overpowered, then the build was as well. If you can't refute this I'm going to have to assume that you're just making up nonsense.

The mechanics were not overpowered. It was just the things that should've put in defense were put more on offense.






Rspike was broken and it lost. Signet of Might was broken and it lost. Dervish train was broken and it lost. Incoming chains with Energizing Finale was broken and it lost. Hexway was broken and it lost. Ritspike was broken and it lost. Etc, ad nauseam.

Nothing was broken but a very few builds (or one called signet of might). People just made the balanced build as benchmark and everything that has an offense above the balanced build (even they sacrificed defense or adaptability) is viewed as overpowered by scrubs.


Your definition of overpowered can't account for this, so I think it's safe to say that we can ignore it.

only War Machine and EvIL were the guilds that wasn't owned by Sweetie Animal Girls, an IWAY supergroup which got top 3 overall in GvG. So what does it say? If scrubs played like WM and EvIL back then, then they wouldn't be owned by IWAY.


In fact, can't think of a single overpowered mechanic in any game that resulted in an unbeatable auto-win every time.

coz technically, nothing is overpowered. It's just scrub whining.


In pretty much every competative game out there, something is considered overpowered when it either limits the other options, or is low risk:high reward, low skill:high reward or low effort:high reward - to the point where the reward is disproportional to the amount of skill or effort it takes to win. IWAY was all of those as it gave very low skilled players the ability to farm massive amounts of fame. Just look at the r9+ IWAYers you mentioned earlier for evidence of this. Most of those r11 and 12 IWAYers are absolutely terrible at the game.

This game is not only about playing balanced. Stopped concluding plx.




Tell that to LuLu, Tommy, Miss Air Jordan, Prav, iQ, EW - hell any of the old ID1 crew who were around before all the scrubs moved on to IWAY after sucking at balanced and spike. Sorry, but you're talking out your *** here; the majority of truly good tombs players hated IWAY. IWAY devalued rank and was brainlessly easy to play. Nobody, good or otherwise, but IWAYers liked it after the initial novelty wore off. And the people who didn't hate it for being overpowered hated it for being the only build your ever fought against.

You're quoting people who weren't even playing HA hardcore when IWAY was cool.

Tell that to the rest of people who broke off Prav, tell that to some members of Te who played IWAY (for fun), tell that to few members of [cow], tell that to Electron Theory, and tell that to Power of My Ranger who did IWAY after his scrubby spike got owned everytime by iway




Anyway, I'm tired arguing about a dead build. You can't even prove your claims... this is pretty pointless.

Why should I present a proof of my claim if I AM the proof of my claims. I was an IWAYer since September '05 and followed any developments with the build and got news within the IWAY circle.

Just take my word for it. Remember, YOU WERE NOT IN THE IWAY CIRCLES.

B Ephekt
14-09-2007, 19:12
All builds are legit. Only scrubs define degenerate builds.By your logic, eF were a bunch of scrubs for winning with hexway and then complaining about how broken it was. And it was broken.

Scrub is a term used for someone who limits themselves, not a random insult for anyone who disagrees with you. IWAYers limited themselves by never learning how to play the game, and for the most part only tombing - a non-tourney setting.

The crux of your argument seems to be that anyone who recognizes an imbalance is a scrub. That's retarded and indefensible.


The mechanics were not overpowered.
They were deemed to be overpowered, so you're wrong. Any reasonable player will tell you that order stacking was retarded. It only lead to gimmicks like rspike and IWAY. Additionally, the IAS stacking was a bug; a broken mechanic.


coz technically, nothing is overpowered. It's just scrub whining. Any game will have imbalances, it's inevitable. Claiming otherwise is simply incorrect (or a lie).

Even in the fighting game world, where scrub is the mantra of nearly every player, there are banned characters because they are truly imbalanced. Ignoring imbalances all together while chanting 'scrub' over and over does not prove that you're a good player. If anything, it just makes you look silly.

Trust me, nobody would care how 'leet' you claimed to be if you could only win with CE Sagat or Akuma.

Why should I present a proof of my claim if I AM the proof of my claims. I was an IWAYer since September '05 and followed any developments with the build and got news within the IWAY circle.Nobody knows who you are so you're not proof of anything. I'm asking for reasoned, logical arguments here not "lolz u r a scrub if u disagree lolz." A monkey count come up with that.

Ranger Nietzsche
14-09-2007, 23:45
Nothing was broken but a very few builds (or one called signet of might). People just made the balanced build as benchmark and everything that has an offense above the balanced build (even they sacrificed defense or adaptability) is viewed as overpowered by scrubs.


Did you honestly just imply that Signet of Might was the only broken build ever?

As someone from a guild where nearly every original member has r1, r2, or r3 champ and we suck at GvG...that makes me giggle.

If you think running 8 D/Mos up to r6 on the Guild ladder in 2 days is balanced, then I guess you just fail right there don't you?

kongkingx
15-09-2007, 03:43
Did you honestly just imply that Signet of Might was the only broken build ever?

As someone from a guild where nearly every original member has r1, r2, or r3 champ and we suck at GvG...that makes me giggle.

If you think running 8 D/Mos up to r6 on the Guild ladder in 2 days is balanced, then I guess you just fail right there don't you?



Rank 6 in 2 days? Well, I call it "shocking" the ladder. People weren't prepared and running the same crap on the ladder.

Well if you finished rank 1 after the ladder season ends, I can safely say its overpowered.

But yea, I failed that to list (and I said "certain builds")


By your logic, eF were a bunch of scrubs for winning with hexway and then complaining about how broken it was. And it was broken.

Because they don't run hexway and they ran it but still hated it.

Yes they are good players but they are scrubs.




Scrub is a term used for someone who limits themselves, not a random insult for anyone who disagrees with you. IWAYers limited themselves by never learning how to play the game, and for the most part only tombing - a non-tourney setting.

Scrubs are those people who whine because supposedly a certain overpowered build beats them.

To quote someone, "Because what defeats you must be overpowered".



Trust me, nobody would care how 'leet' you claimed to be if you could only win with CE Sagat or Akuma.

Winning is the only name of the game. Win whatever it takes. (iQ style?).

Nobody knows who you are so you're not proof of anything. I'm asking for reasoned, logical arguments here not "lolz u r a scrub if u disagree lolz." A monkey count come up with that.

Follow through my old posts here so you'll get a clue. Coz you made me name drop before. I hate name dropping and it makes me itch if i do so.

You should be thankful that someone, like me, a hardcore scrubby IWAYer, is offering you the other side of the story. I bet all you heard about iway were riff raffy trashy things from fellow haters.


OK, let's please go back to why HA was dead topic.

Again, my take on that is that because IWAY was nerfed.

B Ephekt
15-09-2007, 04:21
Because they don't run hexway and they ran it but still hated it.

Yes they are good players but they are scrubs.They don't run it anymore because it got nerfed, thanks in large part due to their complaints. They ran it for an entire 'season' because it was broken and the best build at the time.

They didn't limit their success, so no, they're not scrubs. You just have no idea what the term means.


Scrubs are those people who whine because supposedly a certain overpowered build beats them.

To quote someone, "Because what defeats you must be overpowered".No, sorry, that's only part of it. A scrub is someone who refuses to use a certain tactic because it's "cheap" or "noob" and therefore limits their success. A scrub would be someone who didn't run meta because it was "lame" and then never got anywhere.

You can't really compare players who are sensible enough to acknowledge imbalances and hate seeing an otherwise skill-based game degenerate into button mashing (C-spacebar, if you will).

I'm sure some people disliked IWAY because they lost to it, but a lot of people hated it because it was a truly retarded build that gave bad players a braindead easy way to farm and devalue fame. Why do you think rank means absolutely nothing now? Because you could farm a tiger with IWAY in a couple months, and still have no clue how to play.


Follow through my old posts here so you'll get a clue.
Honestly, I don't care who you are. Your arguments are terrible. I just want you to provide evidence when you claim that IWAY was balanced...


You should be thankful that someone, like me, a hardcore scrubby IWAYer, is offering you the other side of the story. I bet all you heard about iway were riff raffy trashy things from fellow haters.
I respect your view. I just can't agree with it, because I konw very well how bad the vast majority of IWAYers were at this game. Sure, there were a few good players that IWAYed from time to time, but they are definitely a very small minority.




Rank 6 in 2 days? Well, I call it "shocking" the ladder. People weren't prepared and running the same crap on the ladder. I'll give you that this definitely had something to do with it, but that build was just ridiculous. They were the sole reason dervishes got nerfed HARD before ever making it into release.

kongkingx
15-09-2007, 04:41
No, sorry, that's only part of it. A scrub is someone who refuses to use a certain tactic because it's "cheap" or "noob" and therefore limits their success. A scrub would be someone who didn't run meta because it was "lame" and then never got anywhere.


Did you just say that? because if you examine your statement, you just owned yourself.

If you were one of the many who didn't run IWAY when it used too own because you think its cheap, noob and lame and never got rank 10 in no time, you, sir, are a (former) scrub.



They didn't limit their success, so no, they're not scrubs. You just have no idea what the term means.

I have my own definition of scrub and i still have my list of non-scrub guilds (WM, EvIL, iQ, KGYU, cow) at hand. You never saw someone with those tags went to forums and whined how overpowered things were, don't you?

B Ephekt
15-09-2007, 04:51
Did you just say that? because if you examine your statement, you just owned yourself.

If you were one of the many who didn't run IWAY when it used too own because you think its cheap, noob and lame and never got rank 10 in no time, you, sir, are a (former) scrub. I told you before that I've run IWAY, back when it was like 6 wars, a nec and a bonder. I've run most of the gimmicks that have been around at one point or another. I didn't really find it fun so I stopped running it.

I've never gotten top 10. The lowest I've been was rank 13 prior to the Celestial and in the top 20 a couple times.


I have my own definition of scrub and i still have my list of non-scrub guilds (WM, EvIL, iQ, KGYU, cow) at hand. Yea, i can count them off using only my left hand.
Fair enough I guess. Your definition differs from the one most people accept though...

Ranger Nietzsche
15-09-2007, 05:26
You never saw someone with those tags went to forums and whined how overpowered things were, don't you?

Thats because most of them have access to Izzy/Phinaeus through better means than forum posts.

Complaining something is IMBA because it creates a stagnant meta game or limits the number of available options isn't bad behavior, its a genuine attempt to improve the quality of the game.

I don't know this for certain, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that there is a good chance you read Sirlin WAAAAAY too much.

B Ephekt
15-09-2007, 06:46
You never saw someone with those tags went to forums and whined how overpowered things were, don't you?Yeah because they did it in irc and on the alpha forum.

And actually, Ensign posts about imbalances all the time. As for some of the others, ever read the iQ or QQ forums? iQ, KGYU and cow members have all posted about how retarded the game was at certain points.

I don't know this for certain, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that there is a good chance you read Sirlin WAAAAAY too much.I doubt that. He doesn't even get the whole scrub thing right. At least Sirlin has a valid point. He's just complaining about anyone who notices an imbalance.

kongkingx
15-09-2007, 16:03
Yeah because they did it in irc and on the alpha forum.

And actually, Ensign posts about imbalances all the time. As for some of the others, ever read the iQ or QQ forums? iQ, KGYU and cow members have all posted about how retarded the game was at certain points.
I doubt that. He doesn't even get the whole scrub thing right. At least Sirlin has a valid point. He's just complaining about anyone who notices an imbalance.

Ensign doesn't posts scrubby whines such as certain builds making the rank system worthless though or certain builds making the ladder system crap, though.

Same with those guilds that I mentioned.

Alleji
15-09-2007, 18:38
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Shard_Fenix/5nop.jpg
Wow, you guys still play? I'd think you and Ryan would rage the game by now considering how much you *****ed at it and all :P

As for nop's, I remember when we got 2 in a row... I guess it only went downhill from there :laugh:

kongkingx
15-09-2007, 23:33
Complaining something is IMBA because it creates a stagnant meta game or limits the number of available options isn't bad behavior, its a genuine attempt to improve the quality of the game.

What's stagnant and what's not is relative dude. I didn't find IWAY as stagnant coz there were varieties within the build.. etc etc etc...

Personally, I find the current "balanced" state stagnant that's why the game sucks now.

B Ephekt
16-09-2007, 00:03
Ensign doesn't posts scrubby whines such as certain builds making the rank system worthless though or certain builds making the ladder system crap, though.

Same with those guilds that I mentioned.
Ensign makes posts about degenerate mechanics, how IWAY was trash and how things piss him off. Blame, Kry, Devine and Deep all made posts about how retarded dervishes and anti-melee hexes were, etc. Smgzor from KGYU/QQ posted about stuff all the time. If you don't know about it, it's probably because you don't pay attention tot he GvG community.

Sorry to burst your little magic-land bubble, but pretty much everyone you listed has complained about imbalances, because they cared about the state of the game. Do you really think top players just sit around screaming scrub and never taking an interest in skilled play? Hardly. And that is pretty much the polar opposite from the IWAYers who just wanted their broken build left intact so they could "pwn noobs."


As for IWAY devaluing fame... show me one other gimmick that lasted as long or had such a large player base.


What's stagnant and what's not is relative dude. I didn't find IWAY as stagnant coz there were varieties within the build.. etc etc etc...Yeah, well everyone else hated it because it was 99% of what you fought at that time. Nobody really cared if there were subtle differences, because every team was still 4 warriors and 2 necros.

When they started using the mesmer and cg rangers they just crumbled like a really bad balanced team. IWAY was all but dead at that point though.

Personally, I find the current "balanced" state stagnant that's why the game sucks now. The game sucks now because most of the good players left due to a long period of sporadic imbalances.

kongkingx
16-09-2007, 01:54
Ensign makes posts about degenerate mechanics, how IWAY was trash and how things piss him off. Blame, Kry, Devine and Deep all made posts about how retarded dervishes and anti-melee hexes were, etc. Smgzor from KGYU/QQ posted about stuff all the time. If you don't know about it, it's probably because you don't pay attention tot he GvG community..

I need citations on these please... specifically how Ensign said that IWAY was trash and how things piss him off. Don't bother with the cow and qq guys posts.

Or yea, please put in here some links so I can remove them from my non scrub guild list.


Yeah, well everyone else hated it because it was 99% of what you fought at that time. Nobody really cared if there were subtle differences, because every team was still 4 warriors and 2 necros.

Please look at GvGs now and please tell me the difference of what you just said and what you see in GvG.. (clue: please be abstract)

B Ephekt
16-09-2007, 02:05
Go search Ensign's posts over at Guru. He's said how stupid IWAY was a number of times, and his latest "stuff I want nerfed and how" threads were all about skills that pissed him off.



Please look at GvGs now and please tell me the difference of what you just said and what you see in GvG.. (clue: please be abstract)
Balanced is the one build concept that allows the game to be about skill rather than build or button mashing.

Ranger Nietzsche
16-09-2007, 04:40
you want evidence that Ensign posts about stuff that pisses him off?

Do you KNOW who Ensign is?

woot im a warrior
16-09-2007, 05:10
you want evidence that Ensign posts about stuff that pisses him off?

Do you KNOW who Ensign is?

I was wondering that myself because Ensign has made plenty of posts on guru about imbalanced builds/skills/mechanics.

kongkingx
16-09-2007, 18:03
you want evidence that Ensign posts about stuff that pisses him off?

Do you KNOW who Ensign is?


I used to be in Guru and posting there hardcore and trash talking every scrub who posts that "IWAY was overpowered". That was when I was in circulation, my guild was the best iway guild there is and you see my guild's name always on global announcement and all of the posts there were virtually IWAY threads. I didn't recall any case Ensign telling that IWAY was trash build that made rank system useless and he hated everything IWAY because if he did, I should've recalled the threads where I forum trashed talked him.

But none, so I wanted B Ephekt to point to me Ensign's exact posts..

(But I remember him posting how overpowered warriors were)


Balanced is the one build concept that allows the game to be about skill rather than build or button mashing.


Please open your mind before reading this because it's pointless otherwise (http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showpost.php?p=565132&postcount=21)

KKThnx.

B Ephekt
17-09-2007, 00:18
I wanted B Ephekt to point to me Ensign's exact posts..Guru is way too slow to bother doing that, sorry.

I'm not sure what Vanq's opinion is supposed to teach me. He's a good player and all, but I disagree with him. Most good players would disagree with him.

Wuzzman
17-09-2007, 03:59
Players deal with what they want to deal with. Scientific fact. I remember Ensign ranting and raving about how "sh**tty" passive defensive is, and when he said passive defense he was exclusively talking about necro hex's. Because when I mention aegis and wards he and his fanboys not only dismissed it but even insisted on argueing for several pages on how skillful wards are. Lol, what short memory they had when only a year ago players would litterly hundle around the ele casting wards that the only people moving was warriors, and of course in those days people carried ward against foes, gg. Now several months after he ranted to his heart content about the "degenerative play" hex's encourage and even praised the update that obliterated anti-melee hex's but didn't say a word when within the same week, wait-for-vod-way became the new meta.

Balance is only what players choose to deal with. If everyone want to play rock then lets nerf paper so rock can be the only build played. Don't bother thinking its some definitive thing that your a noob if you don't share some elses opinion. Balance is not a fact but a collection of opinions, for example players hate "Build Wars" and there has been a several threads flaming Anet for not changing the game. But the current Block Wars, thats even more passive, more defensive and even encourages less skilled play (honestly who kites anymore), and I don't hear a peap from these very same "expert players concerned about the overall skill level of the game".

Give me a break.

Bloody Samuel
17-09-2007, 20:43
The problem is that passive hexes overloaded both casters and warriors.

I agree with aegis, and passive paragon shouts being bad for the game.

I will however echo ensigns thoughts on this subject and state that physical pressure is too strong in its current form with aggressive refrain paragons and warriors with conjures, unblindable dervishes running about.

So currently one needs some form of passive defence to survive with that sort of massive physical offence available.

Tone down paragons and make melandru weaker and then we can start to tone down some of the passive defence.

Joe

Wuzzman
17-09-2007, 22:37
2 shock warriors has and always will be all you need to kill anything. picking and choosing which offensive options you want to nerf just creates more builds like vodway.

Vela
18-09-2007, 14:46
The whole topic moved from "HA is dead - What to do to rectify it" to "iWay - And the everlasting stupidity of debating it needed skill or not".

Please get back to the real issue please. Moderator stop discussing Ensign and bring the post back on track.

- Vela

B Ephekt
18-09-2007, 15:43
The whole topic moved from "HA is dead - What to do to rectify it" to "iWay
I don't believe this thread was ever intended to "rectify" the problem with tombs. Additionally, I don't think IWAY is that far out of context as it was both a major factor in making tombs suck, and (in addition to necro spike) was a sort of life support for the arena for some 1.5 years.

Vela
18-09-2007, 15:54
So it was for just whinning HA is dead? My bad.

- Vela

Wuzzman
18-09-2007, 19:59
The only thing keeping HA from becoming a total ghost town is that there are at most 2-3 pugable builds, heroway, spiritway, legoway/Ha balance team.

kongkingx
18-09-2007, 20:03
The only thing keeping HA from becoming a total ghost town is that there are at most 2-3 pugable builds, heroway, spiritway, legoway/Ha balance team.

Few things/comments


Heroway - "At least I can farm a few maps."

Spiritway - "Slingshot instead of rifle to hunt ducks is ftw"

Legoway - "I think that balanced is the leetest there is and I'm a ****ing nerd."

B Ephekt
18-09-2007, 20:09
The only thing keeping HA from becoming a total ghost town is that there are at most 2-3 pugable builds, heroway, spiritway, legoway/Ha balance team.
I think it has more to do with all the sub-r9s that got started during the 6v6 carebear days trying to grind out their remaining fame, and all the r9+ guys trying to get their birds.

mmorpg man
19-09-2007, 00:16
The only thing keeping HA from becoming a total ghost town is that there are at most 2-3 pugable builds, heroway, spiritway, legoway/Ha balance team.

not just those. paraway still works as does zergway ("fear me" build) and I have had some success with the old air spike. also just having the builds doesn't guarentee success if the players don't know how to use it. for instance a spike basically only works if everyone in the team has vent/ts.

Wuzzman
19-09-2007, 00:33
true but having a build that players can say "roll X" and 80% of the time the player rolls the right build is very important for pugs.

shardfenix
19-09-2007, 03:39
Lol, unfortunetly shardfenix and Ranger fails at these type of discussion. They really don't see past their little social circle and thus they miss the point by miles. What killed HA is so simple you couldn't believe it. Its not game mechanics, its not skill balance, its not even heros. Its the fact that new players are not becoming HA'ers. You can NOT keep the old players
So you're saying that HA died because no new people play it. That's fine. But new people not playing it is not an independent event. Why are new people not playing it? Because it sucks.
My "small social circle" consists of many of the best players in the game, and they all agree HA has gotton worse and worse as time goes on. Not because new players aren't playing it. Nobody plays HA anymore because its maps suck, and because the state of game balance sucks (this is why only about 8 guilds are serious about gvg as opposed to 100+ back in prophs). I have a second account holding a guild I used to be in, which is ranked 1100. It's been empty for about 4-5 months. If you afk'd a guild back in prophecies, it would become rank 6000 in no time. One could estimate that there are 1/6 the number of pvpers than there used to be.

Ask any good player why they left/stopped pvping. They will tell you it's because pvp sucks now. Getting 5 no opposings in a row in halls during populate hours is bad. Whenever we make a group, we beat UW, SOMETIMES go to and beat fetid, then skip to halls. This happens 90% of the time without fail. I just wanted anet to know what their players think of their ****ty "high level" arena.

Bloody Samuel
19-09-2007, 04:14
sadly what shard said is true, yjere is no real excuse for HA being so bad, or explaining why i have to wait for 30 mins in halls before facing a new team.

kongkingx
19-09-2007, 08:30
So you're saying that HA died because no new people play it. That's fine. But new people not playing it is not an independent event. Why are new people not playing it? Because it sucks.
My "small social circle" consists of many of the best players in the game, and they all agree HA has gotton worse and worse as time goes on. Not because new players aren't playing it. Nobody plays HA anymore because its maps suck, and because the state of game balance sucks (this is why only about 8 guilds are serious about gvg as opposed to 100+ back in prophs). I have a second account holding a guild I used to be in, which is ranked 1100. It's been empty for about 4-5 months. If you afk'd a guild back in prophecies, it would become rank 6000 in no time. One could estimate that there are 1/6 the number of pvpers than there used to be.

Ask any good player why they left/stopped pvping. They will tell you it's because pvp sucks now. Getting 5 no opposings in a row in halls during populate hours is bad. Whenever we make a group, we beat UW, SOMETIMES go to and beat fetid, then skip to halls. This happens 90% of the time without fail. I just wanted anet to know what their players think of their ****ty "high level" arena.



The irony is that you think that most of the people who don't play HA are thinking that pvp sucks and you and your little social circle who think pvp sucks but still play it is whining that no one is competing against you.

I don't know. Your logic is even f-ing up my grammar.

shardfenix
19-09-2007, 09:31
The irony is that you think that most of the people who don't play HA are thinking that pvp sucks and you and your little social circle who think pvp sucks but still play it is whining that no one is competing against you.

I don't know. Your logic is even f-ing up my grammar.
Well, you can say what you want about who I can speak for, but the fact remains that HA almost never has more than 2 districts, and even then only 1 of them has non-afk people in it. It is nearly impossible to have a full run. I'm assuming everyone stopped playing because they find it boring or tedious. Most intelligent lifeforms do things they like.

The irony is that you criticize other people's logic, yet you bring nothing intelligent to the discussion. I especially like the last line. It could be the most illogical statement in this thread...kudos. It's hard to top the brainless morons who post in the pvp section.

Wuzzman
19-09-2007, 14:49
Lol, at best even if you put all the best players in the game in 1 district, they only fill up a 1/10 of that same district. Thats 1/10 of 1 district out of maybe 6-7 disticts full of players in lively HA enviroment. Even if you say "omg all the good players are leaving", the chances that 99.99% of HA players ever meet these elites besides in OB mode, is sooo small that even if they all leave HA right NOW 99.99% of HA players wouldn't notice.

No new players = dead arena
Why can't you get that formula.

Vela
19-09-2007, 15:41
Lol, at best even if you put all the best players in the game in 1 district, they only fill up a 1/10 of that same district. Thats 1/10 of 1 district out of maybe 6-7 disticts full of players in lively HA enviroment. Even if you say "omg all the good players are leaving", the chances that 99.99% of HA players ever meet these elites besides in OB mode, is sooo small that even if they all leave HA right NOW 99.99% of HA players wouldn't notice.

No new players = dead arena
Why can't you get that formula.


Wuzzman you are very right. HA always had 3 different set of crowds:

1. Wannabe R3s.
2. Wannabe R9s.
3. I am so leet, I just play with folks who are almost leet as me...not more than me, but close.

Now, wannabe R3s are gone. Got their bambis. thanks to double fame weekends, got the wolf as well...some of them also got tigers in the process and moved on.

Wannabe R9s can't PuG anymore. Even when they can a series of nOp's kill the charm and patience. Who wants 3 fames per hour at 9 PM EST?

Most of "I am so leet" group have already joined GANK or have started playing WoW.... or simply whine at forums about how they got their tigers and such playing balanced when tombs was so good. Fact is they did NOT. <sorry, its true.>

HA mechanics always sucked. It had a big barrier of entry to the playing mass. But, people still played for glowing emotes as people could do several "Puggable" builds. Now, these builds are still possible but, there are no people to play with as game got older it lost its fans' ardor.

And what's funny is that in HA only there was any form of title system. And that system was broken. It was enough to create segregation in player populace. Because of that title system HA was farmed and farmed and farmed and farmed some more. That was THE only place where grinding was encouraged by ANET. GvG and TA remained cool for a long time because of no title system. And we all know what happened to GvGs when champion title was introduced.

Now, ANET has decided to introduce title in every possible place in the game. Someday, there may be a title for AFK'ing as well. Unless ANET schemes a way to draw out old blood from HA and provide stimulative incentive to the masses to play in HA, it is going to be dead in a month or two. I had 7 consecutive nOp at Zaishen last nite at 9:00 PM EST before getting a UW match. Took another 8 or so nOps to get to burial mounds. After that we simply disbanded.

- Vela

B Ephekt
19-09-2007, 19:06
or simply whine at forums about how they got their tigers and such playing balanced when tombs was so good. Fact is they did NOT. <sorry, its true.>Maybe YOU got a tiger running gimmicks, but not everyone did. I don't think anyone with a tiger can say they got ALL of their fame with balanced, but every good player I know got the majority of heir fame running balanced.


HA mechanics always sucked
Pre-Factions, HA was actually fun. Holding still sucked, but the overall quality of competition was better, you didn't skip to halls every run (but when you did, it wasn't bad because you could hold without getting 20000 nops), people actually ran balanced and so on. Now the mechanics suck worse, you fight thumpers on every map and skip to halls after UW or Fetid.


GvG and TA remained cool for a long time because of no title system. And we all know what happened to GvGs when champion title was introduced.People were farming the ladder long before champs were introduced.

mmorpg man
19-09-2007, 20:22
here is my theory to the reason HA is dead:

in the beginning there were no rankers. these early people grouped together and competed in HA. they then gained ranks and got entranced by the emotes. after the first rush of competetive gaming (just before factions came out), new players came in and wanted to compete. the high ranking people didn't want to play with inexperienced players because they wouldn't gain as much fame with them. these new players grouped together to gain fame themselves but unlike at the start, there were now advanced players who easily beat them. a few of the new players changed to gimmick builds created by the advanced players and gained some fame while the majority of the new players went and did something else. the players that stayed got some fame and ranked up to play with the older players. after this episode (just before nightfall came out), no more new players came (or at least got past UW) so the ranked players were forced to play the same people all the time and this got boring so they left. and so we get to the state of HA as it is today.

fortunately there is some hope for the future of HA. from looking at the thread for unranked HA gatherings I can see there are quite a few new players who haven't yet been driven away. once the highly ranked players get bored of playing each other, HA will be empty. the new players will then be able to start the cycle again as it started at the beggining of of prophecies.

these are just theories but I am hopeful they will come true. If they do then I ask that the new ranked players teach new players who to play and not concentrate on farming fame like this generation of players have. if this happens then HA will continue to live and not become a ghost town like JQ.

borkbork
19-09-2007, 21:20
...because all the kids went back to school. They have to be in bed by 9 PM EST.

:)

InneRam
20-09-2007, 01:39
...because all the kids went back to school. They have to be in bed by 9 PM EST.

:)


Wow, Your so right... xD How did you know >:(.

And Because most of the teams aren't even playing HA >.> just because they
lack players to join their "r7+ party", which they might take a few hours to recruit and then everybody will leave the party...

-IR

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 02:11
...because all the kids went back to school. They have to be in bed by 9 PM EST.

:)

Um, no. There were always plenty of players on at these times during the past. People don't play HA anymore because it sucks.

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 02:44
Since the OP is now dissing me of criticizing him without me putting some intelligent thought to this obviously pathetic thread, let me toss my 2.5 cents.

Why HA is dead (even you know the answers)?

- HA came to a point where in casual players don't have the chance to enjoy it anymore, to the point that a caller and ventrilo is needed to be able to play and if there are no caller available or no vent serv to use, you won't be able to play. All of the casual friendly builds have been nerfed to uselessness and of course, who wants to play in an Arena where you're guaranteed to lose because your build sucks? No one. We all want rewards, winning is the ultimate reward and for the casual player, winning with less preparation will surely make him play more. These casual players have lives and aren't nerds, like you guys and especially the OP, to devote their time to be good in an online game.

- HA is old yes but it doesn't matter if you enjoy the game. Heck, there are still people playing NES Battle City or Blizzard's Starcraft even though they are rottingly old. The mechanics of HA is not that perfect but it's good for the current 8 team format. Well, again, the lack of enjoyment can be traced to the first point that I made.

- People got what they wanted from HA and now enjoying other things. Imagine a senior citizen who has worked all his life to reach his goals and then retired on an island and is now fishing or sunbathing and getting his retirement checks + others every month. The HA players prolly just wanted a bambi to show off or wolf or tiger and zone to a pve zone to /rank everybody and never planned to play HA anylonger

- Burn out factor. People just get bored of something. It's like you getting bored of your nagging boyfriend or girlfriend.

- No new blood, no free fame. These new players are the ones give us easy fame and free fame is the best thing there is. Why are they gone? Again, there is only slim chance for them to feel good about themselves and that is heroway. Spiritway is *** *** weak build and balanced require mastery time that can be allotted to real life things such as watching movies or dating your girlfriend. If I'm a new player now and happened to zone to HA and I see "forming whatever group: need whatever must be rank whatever", I'll just zone to RA and get some instant action or just uninstall and watch some porn.

So that's it. I hope this stupid thread be closed.

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 03:46
These casual players have lives and aren't nerds, like you guys and especially the OP, to devote their time to be good in an online game. [...] and balanced require mastery time that can be allotted to real life things such as watching movies or dating your girlfriend.Yeah because becoming good at a video game obviously requires you to devote your entire life to it. The reality is, some people learn faster than others; some can spend an hour or two a night and learn as fast as someone grinding all day. Balanced isn't really that hard to learn, people are just lazy and want big rewards for very little effort.

I love how bad players always rationalize away how much they suck. I mean, clearly anyone better than you must have no life, right? Nevermind the fact that those making these claims are probably still in high school and living off mommy and daddy. I say this because I can't imagine any reasonably intelligent or mature person stooping to such stupidity to get an inherently flawed point across.

Competitive pvp isn't very casual friendly. I guess this kind of sucks if you want to sign on for 30 minutes and "pwn noobz" without any effort, but that's not how things work. HA is ridiculously easy now ayway, if these players can't win now they're probably not pvp material in the first place. QQ


Edit: The part about being a scrub isn't necessarily directed at you. So can we please avoid another page of you explaining how good you were at IWAY?

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 04:39
Yeah because becoming good at a video game obviously requires you to devote your entire life to it. The reality is, some people learn faster than others; some can spend an hour or two a night and learn as fast as someone grinding all day. Balanced isn't really that hard to learn, people are just lazy and want big rewards for very little effort.

There are reasons why casual and new players don't usually get into playing the balanced build.

- The learning curve is high and you need at least some time to play it ok and more time to play it superbly. That's why veteran guilds which played since day -1 are likely to pwn those wannabe HA balanced leets out there today. Say, make a guess who will probably win when you pit iQ and GANK in a match.

Time is a big factor and learning balanced require time. Sadly, casual players like me want to log into the game, get into the group, "type 1 and gogogog", own some people, if lucky try to win HoH and have a good night sleep afterwards. I don't have time to devote myself to becoming a great monk or a great 3-2-1 caller, or a great mesmer who master the art of diversioning everything. Moreover, I don't wanna log in game, get a crappy group and lose in UW.

- I just like FOTM's. I like plugging myself to a build that is easy to form and can easily get into action, "type 1 and gogoogog", own some people, try to win HoH and get a good night sleep


2 points which boils down to 2 concepts:

1) Valuing time
2) Ease of getting to actually play the ****ing game

And people are wondering why there are lots of no opposing parties? Give me a ****ing break.


Competitive pvp isn't very casual friendly. I guess this kind of sucks if you want to sign on for 30 minutes and "pwn noobz" without any effort, but that's not how things work. HA is ridiculously easy now ayway, if these players can't win now they're probably not pvp material in the first place. QQ

True, because there is no competition anymore. Just farming noobs.

And do you think that you're getting good at playing if you just play vs noobs?

At least, during our time, good guilds played HA. We, playing IWAY, had the chance to face actual guild teams/pugs of EW, iQ, EP, Te, WTB, Coversman, iA, pRp,WM, EvIL and also good IWAY guilds such as MTRX and BrB etc..

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 05:27
This:

I just like FOTM's. I like plugging myself to a build that is easy to form and can easily get into action, "type 1 and gogoogog", own some people, try to win HoH and get a good night sleep
Is the cause of this:

True, because there is no competition anymore. Just farming noobs.

Two years ago people were willing to put the effort into learning how to play, even if it was only an hour or two a night. Now all those players have moved on to GvG or quit playing, and the noobs don't bother learning. So it's largely just scrubs mashing buttons at other scrubs, and then one or two guilds like GANK who are actually half decent farming them all.

This is why HA is so terrible.

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 05:31
This:

Is the cause of this:


Two years ago people were willing to put the effort into learning how to play, even if it was only an hour or two a night. Now all those players have moved on to GvG or quit playing, and the noobs don't bother learning. So it's largely just scrubs mashing buttons at other scrubs, and then one or two guilds like GANK who are actually half decent farming them all.

This is why HA is so terrible.

naaaa. Even though FoTMs were hot back then, good players STILL played HA.

And back then, HA can also be viewed as "Who's better at running this casual friendly FOTM?" No one was actually prevented from running fotms and technically, all people had the equal chance to play them. It's such certain peeps just hated FoTMs (for reasons IDK) which contributed to their nerfing. Well what happens when you kill a popular build, you'll definitely lose players. FoTMs nerfed and look at what's happening now..

An interesting thing to note back then is that lots of people played HA, playing FotM(s) and you still see people, though few, running other builds. Also you'll see good players (like those i mentioned, forgive me if i forgot others) and casual players and definately new players ( those usually send into local "forming IWAY group, rank doesnt matter") filling up districts.

Now its all GANK and noobs using very weak builds which contains nerfed-to-death skills. No competition. They are like pveing.

Anyway, one thing my friend B Ephekt. You keep on dissing those rank 9++ players who got their fame from builds other than balanced. Of course a rank 9++ orders necro will suck at playing mesmer in a rank 9++ group.

But give him back the build that he got all his fame from in original form and he'll show you how he got his rank 9++..

Vela
20-09-2007, 14:46
This:

Is the cause of this:


Two years ago people were willing to put the effort into learning how to play, even if it was only an hour or two a night. Now all those players have moved on to GvG or quit playing, and the noobs don't bother learning. So it's largely just scrubs mashing buttons at other scrubs, and then one or two guilds like GANK who are actually half decent farming them all.

This is why HA is so terrible.

Man, I think you need to revise the post before you make it final. Get your facts right first. Two years ago people in HA were:

1. Playing FoTM
2. iWaying
3. VimWaying

And a very few were playing balanced. Now, if balanced in your dictionary means anything other than iWay, I have nothing to say. And calling other people noobs when you were one, is just another example of why HA is presently dead ---- because of people like you. I started playing GW in Nov 2005. And by then it was simply impossible to get a group in HA if you don't have a bambi at the very least or can't run iWay. People posted about iWay being so overpowered in the forums and then formed their R6+ iway group in HA probably even before the web-page reloaded.

I am sick and tired of people calling other noobs without realizing that they were the ones too. The game is a business and like any business it needs mass to support it. When there is no mass support the purpose fails.

What ANET should have done is some sort of HA tourney to give competitive people some chance to get their chance of getting nightly adrenaline rush and leave the game as a whole to the mass who you unfortunately call noobs. And for ANET they are their million dollar customers.

And again to reiterate my comment on earlier post about getting R9s from gimmicks and double fame weekend, it s simply idiotic to say people who are good got R9 playing balanced. No, most people did not. In iWay days people just iWayed to get to R9, in Spirit Spamming days, people spammed to get R9, in block the altar days, people stood in the middle of the altar to get to R9. People simply farmed HA as it was MEANT to be farmed. It was ONLY way to show others that you are leet as you have a glowing emote when others don't.

I know HA veterans aka good players who change their toon names after hitting R9 to ensure no one recognize them playing scrubway to reach there. Some even took sabbaticals. So, yes, people farmed HA to get to R9 and now, its dead because of the segregationist principles that ANET instilled in the game.

But, it is a cycle. I am quite sure come winter it will be alive again. But, we need old blood out of it.

- Vela

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 18:06
Get your facts right first. Two years ago people in HA were:You should take your own advice. I'm talking about pre-IWAY times when people were still running mostly balanced, before everyone good left for GvG. IWAY was not around 2 years ago, sorry.


I started playing GW in Nov 2005.
So you missed the summer of 2005 and you're telling me to get my facts straight? Please, you weren't even around form the beginning.


And again to reiterate my comment on earlier post about getting R9s from gimmicks and double fame weekend, it s simply idiotic to say people who are good got R9 playing balanced. No, most people did not.That's a bold statement for someone who wasn't even around from the beginning. Like I said, I doubt anyone can say they got all of their fame from balanced, but the majority of good players that I know their fame from balanced. Your extremely generalized claims are unfounded at best, so please, pick another argument. Even when IWAY and necro spike were raging in tombs, the better players ran balanced, and everyone knew each other.



I am sick and tired of people calling other noobs without realizing that they were the ones too.This sort of logic really doesn't make sense. Noobs are new players, who in this case don't know how to play. How is referring to new players "forgetting that I once was one?" The point is that the new players just pick up gimmicks instead of balanced like the older players did, which is why HA sucks now.

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 18:14
I know HA veterans aka good players who change their toon names after hitting R9 to ensure no one recognize them playing scrubway to reach there. Some even took sabbaticals. So, yes, people farmed HA to get to R9 and now, its dead because of the segregationist principles that ANET instilled in the game

I actually happen to know some of them stupid hypocritical wannabe leet scrub noobs too. ^_^


You should take your own advice. I'm talking about pre-IWAY times when people were still running mostly balanced, before everyone good left for GvG. IWAY was not around 2 years ago, sorry.

September 2007 - 2 years = September 2005. The greatest IWAY guild ever was first formed November 2005 by mostly rank 3,4,5 peeps and their first batch of rank 9s started to appear on December 2005.


Check your facts plx.

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 18:22
I don't remember IWAY being around in September, which was my point.

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 18:23
I don't remember IWAY being around in September, which was my point.

fair enough but you should since you were aware of prenerf iway (the one with no scrubby trapper), you should at least get your estimates right.

Wuzzman
20-09-2007, 18:33
there has NEVER been an absence of builds that work perfectly fine without vent. These vent less players would barely get past UW and would always get owned on the second map regardless of the current mechanics. Even now there are ventless builds. Fact is over time HA has become an increasly unfriendly place. And as more players give up with HA, the players come in with the daunting task of navigating pug bull.

For one players who come to HA generally are coming from Ra, with only a brief stop at TA. Thats horrible. HA is not RA with 8 players. Ha is the alternative to gvg for players who don't have guilds. It is puggable gvg in essence and it shouldn't drop in quality(which mean players SHOULD HAVE VENT AND SHOULD BE LEARNING HOW TO CALL IF THEY PLAYING MELEE, NOT JUST IN CASTER SPIKES). The Ra player has no idea the concept of conforming to build types for particular builds. If TA was the beginning of the pvp world then this problem would be cut by 3/4.

Point two, back in the days, r3 was a common requirment to get in Iway?!?! Wtf, it doesn't take a bambi to play Iway. What is the minimum rank to join a VENTLESS, heroway/spiritway? R6!!?!?!?! Wtf, more utter bull****. Those builds can be easily run by r0!!!!!. Any game of the slighest sense when it comes to pvp would have divided the districts by rank a LONG time ago.

Lack of players willing to learn the game(they start from RA and people wonder why that is the case...), followed by steep climb to even get into the game, plus players who are good at the game eventually leaving...no wonder Ha died. Lets assume that there are new players trying to Ha right now. Even if you get past the average HA bull, there are on average 3 districts in international district. American district is litterally a ghost town. I go there and be litterally the ONLY ONE there. Even if an arena if crap **** bull, if there is enough players doing it maybe, just maybe, try to break into it. But if you press "P", and count exactly 10 groups being formed out of 3 international districts, how long will you tolerate the Ha bull?

Anyway, if you were to git hero's right now players would run spiritway, random way, or legoway/balance. Spiritway and random way would be run 80% of the time by most players. Makes no difference, I like HB more then Ra most of the time anyway lol.

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 18:37
Actually, kongking, you may be right. I do seem to remember IWAY being around towards the end of minion factory.

I was speaking of the edenial days though. There was a long period of time before IWAY came around, and balanced - in some form or another - was meta at that time.

As an aside... My memory of Vim is fuzzy, but I do remember it being around before IWAY. Nobody called it Vimway back then because IWAY hadn't been thought up yet. I think this was around the time Putrid was being exploited (in balanced builds).

Wuzzman
20-09-2007, 18:41
You should take your own advice. I'm talking about pre-IWAY times when people were still running mostly balanced, before everyone good left for GvG. IWAY was not around 2 years ago, sorry.


So you missed the summer of 2005 and you're telling me to get my facts straight? Please, you weren't even around form the beginning.

That's a bold statement for someone who wasn't even around from the beginning. Like I said, I doubt anyone can say they got all of their fame from balanced, but the majority of good players that I know their fame from balanced. Your claims are unfounded at best, so please, pick another argument. Even when IWAY and necro spike were raging in tombs, the better players ran balanced, and everyone knew each other.

This sort of logic really doesn't make sense. Noobs are new players, who in this case don't know how to play. How is referring to new players "forgetting that I once was one?" The point is that the new players just pick up gimmicks instead of balanced like the older players did, which is why HA sucks now.

Ha balance has always been a fotm build in and of itself. The balance build that pugs could run was the following.

2 shock war
1 warder
1 woh monk
1 sb/infuse
1 rc/prot
random slots

For Ha to run balance it must be pugable, right now legoway is puggable (gets past UW), but it requires vent and a competence. The average legoway pug is r7+, just how the old balance build was r5+, when the average ventless build was r3+. Yell back in those builds half of those r5+ balance builds were without vent lol.

Good balance groups has always been guild teams, and thats why pugs don't bother with balance most of the time. That will never change.

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 18:44
2 shock war
1 warder
1 woh monk
1 sb/infuse
1 rc/prot
random slots
This build was strong and easy because it was a nice spike with lots of defense and holding power. No holding makes tombs harder for newbs these days, because builds need to be truly flexible, not just ultra defensive. That's really the main difference.

I wouldn't really call 'HA balanced' a fotm though. For something to be fotm it has to be run by a majority of pugs at a certain time. Even when variations of that build were popular, it was mostly run by higher ranked or more skilled players. You would rarely, if ever, see an < r6 groups running that build in the past.

Wuzzman
20-09-2007, 19:03
even 10% of 100,000 players is alot of players. It was a fotm for the fact that, 90% of balances had that set up without fail. I could without out thinking know that that if I see 2 shock warriors, there are 3 monks behind him, plus an ele spamming wards, maybe a mesmer or a ranger. There was no variation and a certain (albiet small) sector of the community ran it consistently. It was a fotm without the "noob" attached to the end. It was an acepted fotm.

Vela
20-09-2007, 19:59
You should take your own advice. I'm talking about pre-IWAY times when people were still running mostly balanced, before everyone good left for GvG. IWAY was not around 2 years ago, sorry.

So you missed the summer of 2005 and you're telling me to get my facts straight? Please, you weren't even around form the beginning.

That's a bold statement for someone who wasn't even around from the beginning. Like I said, I doubt anyone can say they got all of their fame from balanced, but the majority of good players that I know their fame from balanced. Your extremely generalized claims are unfounded at best, so please, pick another argument.


No my statements are not unfounded. If you want to go back to Summer of '05, people simply did spamming or blocked ghostly at altar for endless capping. And balanced builds were always there but, PuGs seldom played it. 10% at best.

And if you have played since beta, you definitely need a refresher. In Fall of 2005, there were two groups in HA.

1. People who played iWay and owned the rest
2. People who sucked at iWay and whined about it.

American districts used to be in double digits in primetime.

Now, let me disect and bisect your statements about good players.

1. Blood Spike -- [iQ] ran it in tombs OVER and OVER and OVER again. Mobile defense with Aegis chaining literally evolved with their b-spikes. It was mainly because they were iWay days. Have doubts? Go and check team-iQ forums. If I attribute b-spike popularity to anyone then it will be to iQ. They also were the ones who found out how to block the pathway in sacred temple with only one person. They were the ones as well to exploit broken tower map exploit. Now, if you say iQ is a bad guild, well...

2. Para Holding -- Before [hex] & [Deer] did there 1000+ fame runs with stupid 6v6 para holding build, it was actually [iQ] who played it in HA well before [hex] and [Deer] did. But, obviously, they did not have the old motivation anymore to exploit it to the core. Hence, people did not notice them as much people noticed [hex] and [Deer].

Now, it will be stupidity to say [iQ] folks are bad players as they surely, are not. However, it will also be idiotic to say only scrubs play builds such as these. People played whatever was easy and effective and get them the most fame in the least possible time. It was true then and it is still true now.

And now scrubbing iWayers is simply stupid. I know several iWayers who only played W/R and they were THE BEST at that role. People shunned iWay telling, hexk it did not need any skill. When you get rolled by a R3+ PuG with 4-8 warrriors pounding your R6+ TS/Vent co-ordinated team is truly a sobstory. But, that's how HA was...good or bad.

Even though I did not play in Summer 2005 but, I have been around to know what I have typed here are simple truth.

- Vela

Wet One
20-09-2007, 20:33
IIRC iway came around to counter dual smite with the ether-renewal e/mo's that were rampant in tombs.

Then there was also the chain lightning spike teams, OMG! That was sooooo fun.

What about ranger spike? zomg <3 ranger spikeeeeeeeeeeee ,yea yea that was a lot of fun as well :-D


And if i recall, the para holding that [deer] did was a joke, because their build had 0 offense, they paid teams 100k to resign to them so they could get the skip to halls, then paid the teams in halls 100k each to let them cap and resign.... Is that exploit? no thats making a build that should not win get to the ultimate goal, and then do what it was made for, shut down offense with stupid amounts of defense.

B Ephekt
20-09-2007, 20:37
No my statements are not unfounded. If you want to go back to Summer of '05, people simply did spamming or blocked ghostly at altar for endless capping. And balanced builds were always there but, PuGs seldom played it. 10% at best.Your statements are unfounded because you have no evidence. You have, at best, your limited view of when you started playing after the 'glory days' (summer 05).

I will give you that some people gimmicked their way to r9. I even narrowed my claims to "people I knew" to give you a bit of concession. But claiming that nobody got r9 with balanced is simply overgeneralized garbage. It's an untenable claim, sorry, and it's not going to fly. Maybe if you want to reword your claims to "most people" instead of "nobody" you'd have a point.

Personally, I played pretty much every gimmick that came around, but I still got the majority of my fame from balanced. Balanced was the most fun and what I played the most. I have an entire friends list full of people who did the same, so your claims are obviously flawed.

And if you have played since beta, you definitely need a refresher. In Fall of 2005, there were two groups in HA.

1. People who played iWay and owned the rest
2. People who sucked at iWay and whined about it.
More like IWAY, rspike, balanced, minion factory and everyone who complained about it. IWAY was one of the contributing factors to most people leaving tombs for GvG, because it turned what was once a decent meta into a repetitive mess.

Yes, IWAY made up 90% of tombs at one point, but that doesn't mean there weren't other builds around during and before that time. Tombs prior to IWAY is exactly what I'm talking about, so I'm not sure why you need to inform me that my statements are "wrong" by describing later events.


1. Blood Spike -- [iQ] ran it in tombs OVER and OVER and OVER again. Mobile defense with Aegis chaining literally evolved with their b-spikes. It was mainly because they were iWay days. Have doubts? Go and check team-iQ forums. If I attribute b-spike popularity to anyone then it will be to iQ. They also were the ones who found out how to block the pathway in sacred temple with only one person. They were the ones as well to exploit broken tower map exploit. Now, if you say iQ is a bad guild, well...IQ also ran dual edenial and balanced during the time I'm speaking of like every other decent group.

They took the time to learn the game before they started playing gimmicks, which is my entire point. How you've missed this and continued to take my comments out of context is well beyond me.


2. Para Holding -- Before [hex] & [Deer] did there 1000+ fame runs with stupid 6v6 para holding build, it was actually [iQ] who played it in HA well before [hex] and [Deer] did. But, obviously, they did not have the old motivation anymore to exploit it to the core. Hence, people did not notice them as much people noticed [hex] and [Deer].This is way past the time I'm speaking of, and Sierra from RenO did it before Deer or Hex (I know because Chamalee and I went with him on his second run). Actually, Hex played it with Sierra for theirfirst time, and Deer's version was a modded version with a rit and W/R hammer war - and later a warder after the para nerf.

IQ ran what was basically a modified version of GvG 'Eurospike,' which was nothing like the dual para holding build.

At any rate, IQ is known for running gimmicks, but they're good players in their own right. The majority of gimmick players are decidedly not; they're 'good' because of their gimmicks.

However, it will also be idiotic to say only scrubs play builds such as these. Which is not what I've said at all. Please try to read my posts.


And now scrubbing iWayers is simply stupid. I know several iWayers who only played W/R and they were THE BEST at that role. People shunned iWay telling, hexk it did not need any skill. When you get rolled by a R3+ PuG with 4-8 warrriors pounding your R6+ TS/Vent co-ordinated team is truly a sobstory. But, that's how HA was...good or bad.IWAY players were, in general, only good at IWAY. And, yes, when a group of scrubs without vent can roll good vent groups it is sad, because skilled play goes out the window due to broken mechanics. Why do you think IWAY was so powerful pre-nerf and barely playable after it? The main reason is that IAS and order stacking got balanced properly, so the pressure wasn't so brainlessly easy to apply with C-spacing. The better IWAYers like MATH and what was left of MTRX still ran IWAY successfully, but the scrubbier pugs couldn't pull it off any more.



IIRC iway came around to counter dual smite with the ether-renewal e/mo's that were rampant in tombs.I remember Dual smite destroying IWAY though.

Wet One
20-09-2007, 20:58
I remember Dual smite destroying IWAY though.

Yes, good dual smite did, but 95% of the people running pug dual smite were doing so without vent, and just going about it spaztically and iway would rip them a new one... and then when ether renewal got nerfed into uselessness, iway took the spotlight (i think, it was so long ago i can barely remember)


And to backup your point i will offer Leloof as an example. I dunno for sure, but the majority of the times i have seen him play in the past and the present he has run balanced stuff...

And hey, even if he only ran balanced from r12 to r14 thats still over 40,000 fame of balanced builds right there, so i would say your point is proven (or he got r9 8 times playing balanced LOL).

kongkingx
20-09-2007, 21:39
As an aside... My memory of Vim is fuzzy, but I do remember it being around before IWAY. Nobody called it Vimway back then because IWAY hadn't been thought up yet. I think this was around the time Putrid was being exploited (in balanced builds).

The popular vimway build (iway warriors + vim trappers) was actually the bastard child of iway, when some iwayer just thought of pugging with 3 iway warriors and 4 vim trappers one day (i know, i was there). Before that, Vimway was with 4-6 vim trappers and black out warriors.

Of course, there are people who took vim to the next level. If you remember a player Playboy Light, you should agree with me. He made sure that vim was in his builds which ranged from the usual balanced or ranger spike.

If there were variants before that, I don't know. I started HA on Sept '05.


Point two, back in the days, r3 was a common requirment to get in Iway!

No. I started pugging in all trap groups in HA, getting meager fame. and then some iwayer just thought of putting traps on his iway team. I was rank 0 and he liked my style so i've worked up my way ever since.

And it seems like nothing is going to stop me since lots of iway group were forming .

That's how easy a noob can get into pvp back then.

Now tell me plx.

Wet One
20-09-2007, 22:42
If there were variants before that, I don't know. I started HA on Sept '05.


I remember running vim in one of the first guilds i was ever in (gonna say ~3-4 weeks after game was released) and it consisted of vim-warriors, vim- trappers, and Mo/W vim monks. This is also @ the same point in time where everyone would do a "nub-check" where someone would zone into dragons lair and all the nubs on pve chars would zone out of the party... sooo classic.


And as a side note, there were ranked iway groups forming ~1 week after the build came out. Because I remember a guildy telling me that there was some crazy new build that people were running in tombs (and we always formed in ID's because 3 of our members were from England/Germany) and in ID1 there were a couple of germans and norwegians making r6+ "iway" groups that required vent. However they were not called iway at the time, and the guy said roll a W/R... and i remember thinking wtf apply poison axe or sword warrior.. but that wasnt it at all. I remember playing the build for ~1 week and getting so bored with it that i never did it again.

Wuzzman
21-09-2007, 13:15
The popular vimway build (iway warriors + vim trappers) was actually the bastard child of iway, when some iwayer just thought of pugging with 3 iway warriors and 4 vim trappers one day (i know, i was there). Before that, Vimway was with 4-6 vim trappers and black out warriors.

Of course, there are people who took vim to the next level. If you remember a player Playboy Light, you should agree with me. He made sure that vim was in his builds which ranged from the usual balanced or ranger spike.

If there were variants before that, I don't know. I started HA on Sept '05.



No. I started pugging in all trap groups in HA, getting meager fame. and then some iwayer just thought of putting traps on his iway team. I was rank 0 and he liked my style so i've worked up my way ever since.

And it seems like nothing is going to stop me since lots of iway group were forming .

That's how easy a noob can get into pvp back then.

Now tell me plx.

there was close to, 7 active american districts in those days. They was unranked iway, unranked balance, unranked bloodspike. If that was more common HA would have continued to grow, but it didn't.

Vela
21-09-2007, 14:25
This is what you said...

Your statements are unfounded because you have no evidence. You have, at best, your limited view of when you started playing after the 'glory days' (summer 05).

I will give you that some people gimmicked their way to r9. I even narrowed my claims to "people I knew" to give you a bit of concession. But claiming that nobody got r9 with balanced is simply overgeneralized garbage. It's an untenable claim, sorry, and it's not going to fly. Maybe if you want to reword your claims to "most people" instead of "nobody" you'd have a point.

Personally, I played pretty much every gimmick that came around, but I still got the majority of my fame from balanced. Balanced was the most fun and what I played the most. I have an entire friends list full of people who did the same, so your claims are obviously flawed.

And this is what I said before..

And again to reiterate my comment on earlier post about getting R9s from gimmicks and double fame weekend, it s simply idiotic to say people who are good got R9 playing balanced. No, most people did not.

I always said most people did not get R9 playing balanced. And if I ask almost anyone who still plays and has a tiger emote how he/she got the emote, and do I even have to guess what these people will tell me? "...Playing balanced, of course. Some may be gimmicks, but, mostly balanced." :grin: I have no issue in you supporting your path to R9 being balanced, as I am not here to prove that you did not. But, when you tell good players got high rank only by playing balanced, I absolutely disagree to that. However, in the last post you agreed to play every possible gimmicks. And, hope you consider yourself a 'good player' so, I think we can leave it at that.

However, it simply is mind-boggling how people go about the gimmick builds. Noobs play it. Leet play balanced. No, these builds are not so easy to build or play that a Noob can build them and play them effectively to make them popular on their own. Most of these FotMs and puggable builds are made by people with extensive knowledge of the game including skill synergies, tactics, arena mechanisms and what not. Most of these builds were made popular to the mass by good players who got extensive success with these builds. And extensive success quantitatively means fame in HA, does it not?

And I wonder what rank were you in glory days. Did you get your R9 in 'glory days'. You got it much after that, correct? Also, 'glory days' were actually 'we are all noob days' as the game was brand new and people were still fathoming the game.

- Vela

Wuzzman
21-09-2007, 15:48
Also concerning ventless teams beating balanced teams on vent. If you are a balance team there is no excuses for losing to a build like IWAY! I don't care what unnerfed version of it, there is absolutely NO EXCUSES for losing.

Shuuda
21-09-2007, 17:13
these builds are not so easy to build or play that a Noob can build them and play them effectively

I disagree, I once went into HA as a ranger, and got into a Spirit/thumpway PuG, and made plenty of fame (Im not that proud) and I've barely ever done HA before. So, yes, they are that easy to play effectively.

kongkingx
21-09-2007, 20:17
there was close to, 7 active american districts in those days. They was unranked iway, unranked balance, unranked bloodspike. If that was more common HA would have continued to grow, but it didn't.

Yea. And I remember districts can go past above 7.

B Ephekt
21-09-2007, 22:04
I always said most people did not get R9 playing balanced. And if I ask almost anyone who still plays and has a tiger emote how he/she got the emote, and do I even have to guess what these people will tell me? "...Playing balanced, of course. Some may be gimmicks, but, mostly balanced." :grin: I have no issue in you supporting your path to R9 being balanced, as I am not here to prove that you did not. But, when you tell good players got high rank only by playing balanced, I absolutely disagree to that. However, in the last post you agreed to play every possible gimmicks. And, hope you consider yourself a 'good player' so, I think we can leave it at that.Fair enough.


However, it simply is mind-boggling how people go about the gimmick builds. Noobs play it. Leet play balanced. No, these builds are not so easy to build or play that a Noob can build them and play them effectively to make them popular on their own. Most of these FotMs and puggable builds are made by people with extensive knowledge of the game including skill synergies, tactics, arena mechanisms and what not. Most of these builds were made popular to the mass by good players who got extensive success with these builds. And extensive success quantitatively means fame in HA, does it not?
People complain because most gimmicks dumb down the game play by making it completely one dimensional. If everyone runs X, then you either run X with the meta or run Y to counter the meta. If you're good you could run Z and deal with X and Y reasonable while not hard countering them, but who wants to fight through a bunch of X and Y non-stop? That's not a while lot of options, and makes for extremely boring game play.

I'd say that gimmicks are worse these days because there is usually just one of them instead of multiple. If you tomb today, you're going to fight thumper/spiritway on every single map. Where is the fun in that?


And I wonder what rank were you in glory days. Did you get your R9 in 'glory days'. You got it much after that, correct? Also, 'glory days' were actually 'we are all noob days' as the game was brand new and people were still fathoming the game.I was a noob like everyone else, but at least we learned how to play the game.

Wet One
22-09-2007, 00:09
And I wonder what rank were you in glory days. Did you get your R9 in 'glory days'. You got it much after that, correct? Also, 'glory days' were actually 'we are all noob days' as the game was brand new and people were still fathoming the game.
- Vela


I got my R9 nearly 20 months ago, back in the glory days of tombs (notice the name, not HA, TOMBS!!!!!) It was late Jan/early Feb 2006...

kongkingx
22-09-2007, 00:57
I got my R9 nearly 20 months ago, back in the glory days of tombs (notice the name, not HA, TOMBS!!!!!) It was late Jan/early Feb 2006...


Same! I got rank 9 back in the glory days too. December 2005. I was the 4th one in our guild to get it and I was a ****ing scrubby IWAY trapper!

And if we didn't focus on GvG and just concentrated on farming whining noobs back then (up to the point wherein Tiger's Fury was nerfed), I should've been one of the hardcore IWAYers who are now close to rank 15..


I'd say that gimmicks are worse these days because there is usually just one of them instead of multiple. If you tomb today, you're going to fight thumper/spiritway on every single map. Where is the fun in that?


I clearly remember the same whines back then. Before, you see people posting in forums complaining about IWAY after IWAY that they face and the funny thing is that these people are those who don't win HoH and/or get beaten by the 3rd IWAY team that they face.

And now, you are complaining about thumpway which you can rape in a few minutes because it's a weak *** build.

My point?

When will people stop complaining?

mmorpg man
22-09-2007, 01:44
When will people stop complaining?

who knows? some people just don't understand that whatever Anet nurf there will always be a build which is superia in 9/10 senarios and will then be turned into a gimmick.

Vela
22-09-2007, 03:32
I disagree, I once went into HA as a ranger, and got into a Spirit/thumpway PuG, and made plenty of fame (Im not that proud) and I've barely ever done HA before. So, yes, they are that easy to play effectively.

I wrote this....


No, these builds are not so easy to build or play that a Noob can build them and play them effectively to make them popular on their own.

Read full sentence first, then understand what meaning it contains and then quote the full sentence please.

New players play builds in HA after they are made popular by others, more experienced people. And rightfully so. That's what I said.

- Vela

shardfenix
23-09-2007, 02:58
There have been many builds noobs put together and played. Depending on what your definition of a noob is, maybe not. The point is, no build run by 8 bad players should ever beat a build run by 8 good players. This is why PvP isn't fun. Too many bad players, too little skill involved.

mmorpg man
23-09-2007, 03:24
There have been many builds noobs put together and played. Depending on what your definition of a noob is, maybe not. The point is, no build run by 8 bad players should ever beat a build run by 8 good players. This is why PvP isn't fun. Too many bad players, too little skill involved.

every build has weeknesses so your logic is only true if the 2 teams are running the same build. its also highly unlikely that a build was made by an inexperienced player that turned into a gimmick (unless that person was immence on the theory of the game mechaniques but had some disability that prevented them from using the build).

I do however agree that PvP can only be fun if playing against people of your own standard. playing against weaker players in boring because there is no challenge and playing against people stronger than you is boring as well because there is no chance in winning. how do we solve this problem? but shortening the gap between experienced and inexperienced players and the only way to do that is to get rid of elitism.

SOLUTION (you've probably all heard it before but I'll say it again) - get rid of fame and the emotes for it. now many of you may say thats not fair when we worked so hard to get it. boo hoo, get over it. and yes if I was r9+ I would still be here saying this so don't try using that against me.

if any of you want to say I'm just whining that HA is too hard then let me ask you something: whats the difference between you whining about "working hard" for your glorious fame and inexperienced players whining about not having them?

kongkingx
23-09-2007, 04:45
bottomline is that if you got owned and you cried, you're not only a noob but also you're a scrub.

mmorpg man
23-09-2007, 12:56
bottomline is that if you got owned and you cried, you're not only a noob but also you're a scrub.

just because you lose a match doesn't mean you're a noob.

grimwold
23-09-2007, 13:26
SOLUTION (you've probably all heard it before but I'll say it again) - get rid of fame and the emotes for it. now many of you may say thats not fair when we worked so hard to get it. boo hoo, get over it. and yes if I was r9+ I would still be here saying this so don't try using that against me.

if any of you want to say I'm just whining that HA is too hard then let me ask you something: whats the difference between you whining about "working hard" for your glorious fame and inexperienced players whining about not having them?

I can guarentee that if you had played on a fairly regular basis for the last two years, and had r10 almost exclusively from playing balanced, there is no way in the world you would be saying get rid of fame and titles. Its not going to happen anyway so no point in you to keep mentioning it. HA will be dead without fame, not just really quiet like it is now, but stone dead.

kongkingx
24-09-2007, 03:33
I can guarentee that if you had played on a fairly regular basis for the last two years, and had r10 almost exclusively from playing balanced, there is no way in the world you would be saying get rid of fame and titles. Its not going to happen anyway so no point in you to keep mentioning it. HA will be dead without fame, not just really quiet like it is now, but stone dead.

You said you're from DOGS and we all know that DOGS were a pure spike team.

How did you get r10 exclusively from playing balanced?

Balanced doesn't necessarily mean that your team has mixture of classes. I experienced vsing mixed class pure spike teams (3-2-1 spike really disguised as "balanced").


just because you lose a match doesn't mean you're a noob.

yea but i didnt say lost a match or cried. :P

woot im a warrior
24-09-2007, 04:27
You said you're from DOGS and we all know that DOGS were a pure spike team.

How did you get r10 exclusively from playing balanced?

Balanced doesn't necessarily mean that your team has mixture of classes. I experienced vsing mixed class pure spike teams (3-2-1 spike really disguised as "balanced").

All balanced teams have a spike in it, if it didn't they would never score kills. But the difference is when that is all the team can do, and they can't pressure along with spike.

(I don't know DOGS so i don't know exactly what kind of spikes they ran)

kongkingx
24-09-2007, 08:07
All balanced teams have a spike in it, if it didn't they would never score kills. But the difference is when that is all the team can do, and they can't pressure along with spike.

I'm not saying that balanced teams don't have spikes (heck even pure pressure teams can call spikes). All I'm saying is that having mixed classes in teams doesn't necessarily mean that your teambuild is meant to be played balanced(-ly) because I've seen mixed spike caster (or with say a teleporting warrior or a useless warrior) pure 3-2-1 spike teams which their players call as "balanced".

DOGS = British Bulldogs = ranger spike / mixed class spike way way back.

mmorpg man
24-09-2007, 09:41
I can guarentee that if you had played on a fairly regular basis for the last two years, and had r10 almost exclusively from playing balanced, there is no way in the world you would be saying get rid of fame and titles. Its not going to happen anyway so no point in you to keep mentioning it. HA will be dead without fame, not just really quiet like it is now, but stone dead.

we'll never know without trying. do you have a better solution??? I didn't think so so shut it. unlike some of you "experts" I don't want HA to go into the mud. but why should you care as you have your r9 and emotes to show off to everyone in boast. HA should be more than a title farm.

woot im a warrior
24-09-2007, 10:31
we'll never know without trying. do you have a better solution??? I didn't think so so shut it. unlike some of you "experts" I don't want HA to go into the mud. but why should you care as you have your r9 and emotes to show off to everyone in boast. HA should be more than a title farm.

The whole game now revolves around title farming, there are people who buy top 100 guilds to farm champ points.

mmorpg man
24-09-2007, 21:54
The whole game now revolves around title farming, there are people who buy top 100 guilds to farm champ points.

you don't see people farming kurzick and luxon faction and the only title farming in PvE is for lightbringer and sunspear titles.

B Ephekt
24-09-2007, 21:59
SOLUTION (you've probably all heard it before but I'll say it again) - get rid of fame and the emotes for it. now many of you may say thats not fair when we worked so hard to get it. boo hoo, get over it. I'm not sure why this has to be explained to you in every thread, but here we go again. On what basis would you remove fame from those who earned it to appease those who choose not to? That's just stupid. The players who gained rank earned it, regardless of what build then used to get there. They deserve their reward. If some scrubs choose not to make the effort, then they deserve zero reward.

You're also ignoring the fact that if you removed rank, the high ranked players would only play with people they knew to be high ranked. So you're still not going to be getting free rides in decent groups. And I don't imagine that it would be limited to high ranked players either. Anyone who had rank would stick with people they knew to be ranked. If nobody knew you, you'd still be stuck searching for people willing to take an unknown player along.

Not to mention that without a reason to play HA, nobody would even bother. You seem to acknowledge that HA is mostly about fame farming, so what makes you think people would stick around if that aspect was removed? I'm pretty sure people aren't grinding HA because thumpway is fun to play...

and yes if I was r9+ I would still be here saying this so don't try using that against me.But you're not, so your claim is contrived at best.


if any of you want to say I'm just whining that HA is too hard then let me ask you something: whats the difference between you whining about "working hard" for your glorious fame and inexperienced players whining about not having them?The difference is that one group actually earned something, while the other only cried about how it was impossible or too hard.


we'll never know without trying. do you have a better solution??? I didn't think so so shut it. unlike some of you "experts" I don't want HA to go into the mud. but why should you care as you have your r9 and emotes to show off to everyone in boast. HA should be more than a title farm.
Your solution is terrible to begin with, so what's the difference?


you don't see people farming kurzick and luxon factionUm, go to AB sometime, people have r5 and 6 of those titles. There are also Glad points, Champ points, Hero rank, all the other pve titles.

Wuzzman
24-09-2007, 22:43
Lol, if you remove rank from HA then...lol, its just to funny. Maybe it would have been at idea back in 2005. HA will just turn into a 8 man RA team. You want to know how I know this? When IWAY was around, even more recently when Iway was Steady Stance Wars, you can easily join a iway start the battle and have the whole team rage in under 10 second on the Zaishen. That was with a fame farming build that beat ritspike often. Can you imagine the number of teams that will dispand at the zaishen, and even more teams that will rage at Underworld. Rank is a group forming mechanic that has been established since 2005.......I don't think "Glf player with vent" will catch on.......

mmorpg man
25-09-2007, 00:47
I'm not sure why this has to be explained to you in every thread, but here we go again. On what basis would you remove fame from those who earned it to appease those who choose not to? That's just stupid. The players who gained rank earned it, regardless of what build then used to get there. They deserve their reward. If some scrubs choose not to make the effort, then they deserve zero reward.

who said anything about getting no reward? I said get rid of fame but maybe increase the chance of getting a rare item or money when you win HoH. that way there is still a reward for winning but no discrimination.


You're also ignoring the fact that if you removed rank, the high ranked players would only play with people they knew to be high ranked. So you're still not going to be getting free rides in decent groups. And I don't imagine that it would be limited to high ranked players either. Anyone who had rank would stick with people they knew to be ranked. If nobody knew you, you'd still be stuck searching for people willing to take an unknown player along.

PUGs are common in HA. haven't you noticed that most of the teams winning HoH these days aren't guilds? and most people don't really care as long as you can play the build and you're friendly.


But you're not, so your claim is contrived at best.


don't try to judge people before you have played with them.


The difference is that one group actually earned something, while the other only cried about how it was impossible or too hard.


this conversation sounds familier somehow. oh yes I know the answer to this (God only knows i've said it enough times)! you say you all got your fame in the beggining of prophecies when there weren't any r9+ groups and as someone said you were all fathoming out the game. in case you haven't noticed things are a little different now. whether you think so or not, most new players find it extremely hard to come into a new arena and try to play a build against others who have played it for months.



Um, go to AB sometime, people have r5 and 6 of those titles. There are also Glad points, Champ points, Hero rank, all the other pve titles.

not everyone wants to do fff you know so how else are they meant to get enough faction to use the kurzick/luxon skills? JQ and FA are abandoned and fff is just boring as hell. also most AB players are either just wanting to beat up some "noobs" without wasting an hour to organise a team or are getting faction to pass to their guild so they can own a town in cantha.

so, ephekt, you said yourself that HA is dead so what is your solution? oh right you haven't got 1 because you have never thought of it because like most people you just got your r6 or r9 and left. then why are you here debating with me about a solution to HA when you will probably never go there again?

Shuuda
25-09-2007, 00:49
What seems funny to me (not ha ha funny) is how some people can still be blind to the decline of HA. I recently had a chat with a guildy, who's like r7 and seemed to deny it when I said that HA is dying, nor did he seem to undertand what Spirit/thumpway was made to do (Kept going on about how it can be beaten by good players, not realising that new players are the main victims of gimmick builds). I also have reason to believe he tried the "who r u" thing on me to deny what I said. Tsk tsk.

kongkingx
25-09-2007, 03:21
What seems funny to me (not ha ha funny) is how some people can still be blind to the decline of HA. I recently had a chat with a guildy, who's like r7 and seemed to deny it when I said that HA is dying, nor did he seem to undertand what Spirit/thumpway was made to do (Kept going on about how it can be beaten by good players, not realising that new players are the main victims of gimmick builds). I also have reason to believe he tried the "who r u" thing on me to deny what I said. Tsk tsk.

For people who enjoy HA, beating noobs, getting free fame from competition-less "competition", HA is alive and well.

Same **** back then. When IWAY hating people were complaining that "HA is dead" back then in forums, American districts were soaring up to double digits.

It's all relative imo.

B Ephekt
25-09-2007, 04:21
who said anything about getting no reward? I said get rid of fame but maybe increase the chance of getting a rare item or money when you win HoH. that way there is still a reward for winning but no discrimination.There is no discrimination, just experienced players and scrubs who want a free ride (ie, fame removed).

Fame is the reward for HA. You get it on every map you win. If you remove it people will stop playing HA. Why would players who never even make it to HoH, much less win HoH, be compelled by a chance of getting a rare item from a chest they never see? They won't, and they will quit playing. At least with fame they can build up their rank by winning the first few maps over and over again.

Why would experience players, who are trying to get higher ranks, want pve items as a "reward?" They won't, they're only playing to get their next ranks.

Removing fame is the dumbest move Anet could make for reviving HA. It's stupid stupid stupid, and Anet knows it. That's why they didn't remove rank 2 years ago when the first scrubs started crying after people started forming ranked parties.

If there was any time rank should've been removed or reset it was after spirit spam, but Anet didn't care... and they don't care now.

PUGs are common in HA. haven't you noticed that most of the teams winning HoH these days aren't guilds? The players who win during prime time are mostly friends list groups. Groups unknown players will never get into if fame is removed. At least now unknown players have a chance to get into those groups once they get some rank and make friends with the higher ranked players.

I don't think you really understand how HA works...

and most people don't really care as long as you can play the build and you're friendly.If this is the case, then why does fame need to be removed?

don't try to judge people before you have played with them.
Please try to comprehend my posts.


whether you think so or not, most new players find it extremely hard to come into a new arena and try to play a build against others who have played it for months.
If something is worth having, then it's worth making an effort to get. If new players want to win and get fame, they need to learn to play with other new players. Why is that so hard to understand?

If they can't learn or don't want to make the effort, then HA is clearly not for them.

not everyone wants to do fff you know so how else are they meant to get enough faction to use the kurzick/luxon skills? JQ and FA are abandoned and fff is just boring as hell. also most AB players are either just wanting to beat up some "noobs" without wasting an hour to organise a team or are getting faction to pass to their guild so they can own a town in cantha.
Please try to comprehend my posts.


so, ephekt, you said yourself that HA is dead so what is your solution? oh right you haven't got 1 because you have never thought of it because like most people you just got your r6 or r9 and left. then why are you here debating with me about a solution to HA when you will probably never go there again?Please go read my other posts on the subject. I actually want HA to get better because I don't have the time nor motivation for GvG anymore. I've posted tons of suggestions before, and had this very discussion with you in the past, so forgive me if I don't repeat it now.


Discussing this is pretty stupid, so I'm not going to bother any more. Anet isn't going to do it, sorry, so if you want rank you're going to stop posting about it on fansites and go earn it like everyone else.

mmorpg man
25-09-2007, 18:43
Discussing this is pretty stupid, so I'm not going to bother any more. Anet isn't going to do it, sorry, so if you want rank you're going to stop posting about it on fansites and go earn it like everyone else.

if enough people ask for it they will get it. remember when they nurfed soulreaping and the next day basically every necro on here had said they were against it so it was changed back.

Shuuda
25-09-2007, 19:53
Soul Reaping was never changed back as far as I know, it was just changed again, into something different.

B Ephekt
25-09-2007, 20:33
if enough people ask for it they will get it. remember when they nurfed soulreaping and the next day basically every necro on here had said they were against it so it was changed back.
People have been asking for fame to be removed for 2 years and it hasn't happened yet. Probably because Anet isn't completely stupid.

And soul reaping was never reverted.

Think whatever you want, but it's not going to happen.

Wuzzman
25-09-2007, 21:35
If HA is being played for "fame" then HA needs to burn in hell. Rank was Anets way of making a crappy party forming mechanic, but theye didn't take the full step and actually make things competitive. But if "fame" is the only reason why 90% of Ha'ers do HA then HA needs to burn in hell and I will personally open the gates of Hell for HA.

Ugly Betty
25-09-2007, 21:52
The players who win during prime time are mostly friends list groups. Groups unknown players will never get into if fame is removed. At least now unknown players have a chance to get into those groups once they get some rank and make friends with the higher ranked players.

I don't think you really understand how HA works...

QFT. this is exactly how i've achieved my current rank. the more i played and made friends the easier it was for me to get in groups. my chances for winning increased as i met higher ranked ppl. once i reached a decent rank (r4) the opportunities really opened up.

if fame is removed HA will be dead - without a doubt, without a doubt.

Ranger Nietzsche
25-09-2007, 23:07
If HA is being played for "fame" then HA needs to burn in hell. Rank was Anets way of making a crappy party forming mechanic, but theye didn't take the full step and actually make things competitive. But if "fame" is the only reason why 90% of Ha'ers do HA then HA needs to burn in hell and I will personally open the gates of Hell for HA.

what do you mean 'if"

Tombs was played for fame from day 1.

Fame was the original title, and its popularity is probably what inspired them to make PvE titles similar to fame.

mmorpg man
25-09-2007, 23:41
if fame is removed HA will be dead - without a doubt, without a doubt.

for a time it might be. then new players will come and start things again like they were at the beggining of prophecies. the only difference is that there will not be any discrimination between ranked and unranked players.

why do people choose GvG over HA? because of the competitiveness of the match. all HA has offered is a title track, an emote and some gold or an item if you win HoH. why do most of the new players quit HA? because they are thrown in the deep end, by discrimination, against players with far more experience. put 2 and 2 together, it doesn't take a genius to work out what must be done.

Ugly Betty
26-09-2007, 00:00
all HA has offered is a title track, an emote and some gold or an item if you win HoH. why do most of the new players quit HA? because they are thrown in the deep end, by discrimination, against players with far more experience. put 2 and 2 together, it doesn't take a genius to work out what must be done.

i would argue that a title track, an emote, and some gold/item is far more than other arenas or some repetitive dungeon offers.

as for discrimination - i disagree. you commit to something you go far. you make friends, you get in groups. you get in (good groups) you win more. you win more, you get fame. that's fair enough for most americans i think.

B Ephekt
26-09-2007, 00:12
mmorpg man doesn't understand HA or the concept of working for something. You can't really reason with someone who wants a free ride.



. the only difference is that there will not be any discrimination between ranked and unranked players.I'm just curious why this "discrimination" is a bad thing? Experienced players play with others of similar experience. Inexperienced players need to gain experience before they get into experienced groups. Where is the problem here? The answer is that most unranked players are just lazy and want a free ride. The ones who aren't work for their fame like everyone else.

Fame is a party formation tool. If you remove it how will I, for example, form a group without having to weed out a bunch of scrubs before I can even play? Right now it's pretty easy; ask for r10+ players and kick anyone who sucks. This is much, much easier than having to deal with people who may have zero experience.

Do you expect me to personally interview each player or something? Groups already take long enough to form.

why do people choose GvG over HA? because of the competitiveness of the match. all HA has offered is a title track, an emote and some gold or an item if you win HoH.Exactly. This is why nobody will play HA if you remove those rewards. A pve item might be a good reward to you, as a pve player, but the majority of HA players aren't going to want that. Hell, the majority of HA players can't even get to that chest.


Ignore reality if you want to, but Anet isn't going to give you a handout. If you want rank you're going to have to earn it like everyone else.

Vela
26-09-2007, 20:38
HA groups need to be rank matched in actual battle. And lower rank teams be given handicaps like bowling leagues in more than 2 team maps. One thing for certain is that HA mechanisms need to be changed and it must be made PuG friendly.

That's the only way to make it popular IMO. There is no fun in beating the same team/build over and over again. On Thursday last, faced [U@ly] in Burial (thanks for them being a guild team, we got a skip from UW after a couple NoPs at 9 PM EST). And, of course, they were running hexway or whatever crap that was. We lost as we did not have enough hex removal. We reentered and faced them again at Dark Chambers...thanks to Expel hexes inclusion and skip, we won. Faced Scrubway in Halls led by Tr@pt M!sch!ef...won halls and got a flame. Waited for a few minutes ( thanks to a couple of NoPs), guess who we had to defend against...yep, you guessed it right its [U@ly] again accompanied by some jokers as third team. Luckily we won without any good reason...for some reason [U@ly] decided to go at the other team instead of us.

Anyhow, the joy ended there and a 12 minutes counter started
...we left.

I really wish, they change HA mechanism and use rank for something useful than lame "Gloat" and discrimination.

May never happen..

- Vela

Vela
26-09-2007, 20:53
I'm just curious why this "discrimination" is a bad thing? Experienced players play with others of similar experience. Inexperienced players need to gain experience before they get into experienced groups. Where is the problem here? The answer is that most unranked players are just lazy and want a free ride. The ones who aren't work for their fame like everyone else.

1. The reason today you are making the quoted post answers your question about why discrimination is bad. If it wasn't, HA would not have been dead.

2. No. Most unranked players are looking for a group that will not disband at Zaishens and will have a chance to understand the complex HA mechanisms from the people who have already done it.

Now you and I both know what happens we face a team who never played in Antechamber map. They lose simply because they don't know what the heck is going on in there. For an inexperienced player fathoming it from reading posts and guides is not difficult but, impossible.

Oh by the way, did you get your tiger last year or got a special code to unlock the emote when you purchased copy of the game? Your generalized comment about unranked players being lazy and looking for a free ride is garbage and you know it.

Have you met the majority of the unranked community? If so, why? :grin: Can't you just play WoW and be happy? :grin: I say all these with love and humility..don't take these as personal attacks.

- Vela

B Ephekt
26-09-2007, 21:17
1. The reason today you are making the quoted post answers your question about why discrimination is bad. If it wasn't, HA would not have been dead.HA is dead because of the gimmicks that were allowed to **** up the place for so long, and the mechanic changes being poorly thought out and implemented. If anything killed HA, its was IWAY, with 6v6 and kill count finishing it off.


For an inexperienced player fathoming it from reading posts and guides is not difficult but, impossible.Sorry, I don't buy this. Unless you're going to claim that all inexperienced players are idiots or something. The game gives a short tutorial of the map before the match starts, the Wiki lists the objectives pretty clearly and the tactics are covered in forum posts everywhere.

Succeeding on maps you haven't reached before might be difficult, but it's hardly impossible. At any rate, it's part of the learning process. If some players see losses as a deterant rather than an opportunity to learn, that's their problem.


Oh by the way, did you get your tiger last year or got a special code to unlock the emote when you purchased copy of the game? Your generalized comment about unranked players being lazy and looking for a free ride is garbage and you know it. The statement is a generalization. But I hardly think it's inaccurate when the majority of rank whiner state that "rank is unfair" because they can't get into r9+ groups. If you believe what the rank whiners claim on the fan sites, there are extremely large amounts of unranked players who are "just as good as r9s," and "just want to play without discrimination." So why can't they group together? The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that they want to get into those r9+ groups because they know the fame comes faster, or want rank removed so they can play with those players without "discrimination" (ie, they want a free ride).

I'm sure there are some unranked players who are fine with rank and don't want a free ride. But you know what? Those are the players like Ugly Betty who are willing to work for their rank and don't want to see it removed.

I just don't understand why ANet should remove rank just to appease the players who can't be bothered to work for it.

Have you met the majority of the unranked community? If so, why? Nope, but I've played in plenty of unranked groups since I got a tiger. And the complaints on the forums are all the same - "zomg I can't get into r9+ groups even though I'm unranked. Stop discriminating against me it's so unfair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Granted, more ranked players could help the unranked guys out, but I don't see why the game should force this kind.

Shuuda
26-09-2007, 21:55
The only major issue with getting into HA is the fact that all unranked PuGs I see are running gimmicks and just fame farming. But maybe I just don't look around enough...

If you can't handle elitism in a video game, your gonna get eaten alive in the real world.

B Ephekt
26-09-2007, 22:16
The only major issue with getting into HA is the fact that all unranked PuGs I see are running gimmicks and just fame farming. But maybe I just don't look around enough...It's not like the ranked pugs aren't playing gimmicks too. Generally the only people running balanced are higher ranked friends list groups.

mmorpg man
27-09-2007, 00:17
HA groups need to be rank matched in actual battle. And lower rank teams be given handicaps like bowling leagues in more than 2 team maps. One thing for certain is that HA mechanisms need to be changed and it must be made PuG friendly.

thanks for the support vela. for a minute there I thought I was on my own.


Sorry, I don't buy this. Unless you're going to claim that all inexperienced players are idiots or something. The game gives a short tutorial of the map before the match starts, the Wiki lists the objectives pretty clearly and the tactics are covered in forum posts everywhere.


thats like saying if you read a cooking book you can instantly do eveything perfectly first time. because that makes a huge amount of sense doesn't it. this brings me back to my point of "the best way to get good at something is to practice it. if a new players gets into a team which basically rage quits against the zaishen then how are they meant to practice the maps against real teams?

what does rank show other people about you? that you can say 1 2 3 spike and press a button. such a lot of skill that requires doesn't it. or maybe you can just press c space 1 2 3 4. wow such skill is worthy of merit. those are just some examples but I think the best is "I just beat a group who have just joined HA, have never played the map before or the build." do you want to trophy for that?

rank doesn't show skill. all it shows is that you can play 1 build (even if it is balanced). that doesn't make you a skilled player especially when playing against an inexperienced group.


The statement is a generalization. But I hardly think it's inaccurate when the majority of rank whiner state that "rank is unfair" because they can't get into r9+ groups. If you believe what the rank whiners claim on the fan sites, there are extremely large amounts of unranked players who are "just as good as r9s," and "just want to play without discrimination." So why can't they group together? The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that they want to get into those r9+ groups because they know the fame comes faster, or want rank removed so they can play with those players without "discrimination" (ie, they want a free ride).

prime example of discrimination right there. thanks for proving my point.

Wet One
27-09-2007, 00:20
On a side note, i tombed last night from ~midnight EST till 4:30am... here is a breakdown of what we faced:

The # will be an estimante unless its 1, then that build was only faced 1time

Paragon Spike: 1x
Grab 8 n go: 1x
Ranger Spike (glass arrows): 1x
Hex overload w/2 humilities: 1x
Fire ele spike: 1x
Spirit-way (i am calling it that to be nice): 20+x


As a side note, i would like to comment on the above statment reguarding discrimination. The group i was in, and normaly tomb with discriminates 100%.

The discrimination is broken down as follows:

If you do not normally play with us, or personaly know any of us you simply do not play with us. We do not take ANY pugs. You either have to be a friend of someone in the normal group (and they vouche for you if you are unknown) or a person with a reputation for being good. We do not discriminate based on rank (there are people in the group with wolves all the way to phoenixes) we discriminate based on 1st hand knowlege of your skill @ the game. period, end of story... so even if rank was removed the group of ~12 people we generaly play with would remain the same, as i think it would with 95% of the good groups playing.

B Ephekt
27-09-2007, 02:36
thats like saying if you read a cooking book you can instantly do eveything perfectly first time. because that makes a huge amount of sense doesn't it. this brings me back to my point of "the best way to get good at something is to practice it.Wow, please try to comprehened what I'm saying before you reply.

I didn't say that players should instantly know everything. I said that the primers for learning are there for new players, and that they can learn from this information AND their loses. How do you think everyone else learned? New players actually have it easier due to the wealth of forum posts and observer mode - things we did not have when I started.

The problem is that some players take loses as a deterrent rather than an opportunity to learn. This is either laziness or just being genuinely bad at the game. I'm not sure how removing fame will change that. Perhaps you can explain since you seem to think removing player's rewards will magically fix HA.


if a new players gets into a team which basically rage quits against the zaishen then how are they meant to practice the maps against real teams?
Please explain how removing rank would change this. If you cannot, then I'm just going to ignore your comments from here on out.

Guess what, there will be scrubs with or without rank, and experienced players will stick together with or without rank. The only thing removing rank will do is cause most HA players to stop caring, and the remaining players to only play off their friends list. Do you really think someone who was r3/6/9 etc before fame was removed is going to play with someone they don't know? They won't; they want to win just like everyone else, and an unknown player may as well be a pver.

Additionally, as a ranked player, why should I bother with HA if Anet takes away all the fame I've earned over the past two years? Why should I be compelled to play for the new rewards when they've set precedent for crapping all over our previous rewards?

what does rank show other people about you? that you can say 1 2 3 spike and press a button. such a lot of skill that requires doesn't it. or maybe you can just press c space 1 2 3 4. wow such skill is worthy of merit. those are just some examples but I think the best is "I just beat a group who have just joined HA, have never played the map before or the build." do you want to trophy for that? At least those players have bothered to get rank and the experience that comes with it, which is more than I can say for the whiners.


rank doesn't show skill. all it shows is that you can play 1 build (even if it is balanced). that doesn't make you a skilled player especially when playing against an inexperienced group.You're right, and I've said this many times myself. Rank is an indication of experience, not skill. But experience is relevant to party formation. For example, when I get to a relic run I want a runner who knows how to run, midliners who know how to block and monks that know how to split. With rank, I can be reasonably sure that a player understands these tactics. Sure, rank isn't perfect, and I may end up kicking someone, but who cares? It's better than the alternative, which is weeding through handfuls of scrubs in order to find a player who actually understands the game.

Without rank, how will party formation work? I'm obviously not just going to grab 7 random people and go in - I want to win. Should I interview each and every player about tactics and profession-specific knowledge before we go in? Sorry, that's too much effort for HA. I'd sooner play with people I knew than deal with that nonsense.


prime example of discrimination right there. thanks for proving my point.OK, I'm going to ask this again and maybe this time you can come up with an argument. Why is this "discrimination" a bad thing? Why should experienced players be forced to play with new players? If there are so many new players, why can't they form unranked groups and learn like everyone else did?

Is it because they want a free ride?



If you do not normally play with us, or personaly know any of us you simply do not play with us. We do not take ANY pugs. You either have to be a friend of someone in the normal group (and they vouche for you if you are unknown) or a person with a reputation for being good. We do not discriminate based on rank (there are people in the group with wolves all the way to phoenixes) we discriminate based on 1st hand knowlege of your skill @ the game. period, end of story... so even if rank was removed the group of ~12 people we generaly play with would remain the same, as i think it would with 95% of the good groups playing.
This is true for me and the majority of people I play with as well. If we don't know you, then we don't play with you.

There are times we will take a pug if we can't find someone though, but it's going to be a r10/11/12 pug, because we want to play and win, not teach someone the game.

Vela
27-09-2007, 16:12
This is true for me and the majority of people I play with as well. If we don't know you, then we don't play with you.

There are times we will take a pug if we can't find someone though, but it's going to be a r10/11/12 pug, because we want to play and win, not teach someone the game.

Absolutely accepted truth. It same went with me as well. Most of my fame came from playing with same set of people. I HA only when they call me..else, I am happy chilling elsewhere. Sometimes I go play with other people or do LFG if I am EXTREMELY bored.

This is the simple thing that broke HA. If they introduce handicaps in battles to match up R6s against R10s or R3s vs R6s, I think that will bring back some interest in HA. In general, PvP crowd (ranked or unranked) is perceived as rude trash-talking scumbags...and, unfortunately, most are. Just turn on local chat and anyone will see.

HA needs booster for PuGs and make it PuG-friendly arena to make it popular. Honestly, anything you get today will get old tomorrow or day after. And same goes for Wolf, Tiger or Phoenix emotes. Hence, the game introduces grind mechanism to keep you at it till they get their new scheme in place.


On a side note, i tombed last night from ~midnight EST till 4:30am... here is a breakdown of what we faced:...

And Wet One, the time you mentioned in your post is basically the scrub-farming time for HA and many many players utilized that time to get fame to climb to higher rank. I, personally, know a few who specifically slept thru the evening during summer to wake up around midnight and farm scrubs.

I don't think ANET cares about GW atm as their sponsors and investors are looking for new gigs.

- Vela

Wet One
27-09-2007, 17:44
And Wet One, the time you mentioned in your post is basically the scrub-farming time for HA and many many players utilized that time to get fame to climb to higher rank. I, personally, know a few who specifically slept thru the evening during summer to wake up around midnight and farm scrubs.

I don't think ANET cares about GW atm as their sponsors and investors are looking for new gigs.

- Vela

I agree, well its scrub hour at least, not really sure if they are farming or getting farmed. We usually end up playing around that time because most people work till 7 or so EST then spend some time with their family, eat dinner, watch whatever is good on TV and then jump on GW around 9 or 10. Then do whatever till the rest of the group shows up 1 by 1 lol.


My only concern with a handicapping of low ranked teams is that they tend to play more gimics. And the intrensic problem with that is that they teand to be "overpowered" or broken to start with and handicapping them would only make it even worse. We generaly dont bring many direct counters to spiritway (1 unnatural signet and thats it) so we beat them by being more experienced and outplaying them the majority of the time. Because we want more versatility when we get to halls and actually see those other 5 teams that are playing something totaly different. So by handicapping or making the the current gimic stronger you are really putting teams that wish to have a lot of utility @ a disadvantage imo.

mmorpg man
27-09-2007, 18:13
let me just check that all you people want HA to be full and competetive again like it was before IWAY right? If so then lets look at the HA community we have today. its mainly comprised of new players trying (and failing) to gain r3, fame farmers and the occasional guild thats bored with everything else enough to play HA. take away the fame and the fame farmers will leave to find another title to exploit easily and boast about. how is this a bad thing?

Shuuda
27-09-2007, 18:37
Prehaps fame shouldn't be a title, but should focus more on being a system to do as B Ephekt said, help exp'ed players find other exp'ed players, this comes back to the dividing of districts by rank, which could (COULD) work.

Ranger Nietzsche
27-09-2007, 19:30
let me just check that all you people want HA to be full and competetive again like it was before IWAY right? If so then lets look at the HA community we have today. its mainly comprised of new players trying (and failing) to gain r3, fame farmers and the occasional guild thats bored with everything else enough to play HA. take away the fame and the fame farmers will leave to find another title to exploit easily and boast about. how is this a bad thing?

why do you distinguish between "new players trying to gain r3", and "fame farmers"

what are those new players doing if not farming to r3?

And why would those new players even look at HA twice if there was no r3 to get?

Vela
27-09-2007, 19:38
My only concern with a handicapping of low ranked teams is that they tend to play more gimics. And the intrensic problem with that is that they teand to be "overpowered" or broken to start with and handicapping them would only make it even worse.

You nightcrawler you! Main reason I could never HA much bcoz having a r/l always hurt! :grin:

I agree with the gimmick being overpowered with handicapped systems but, gimmicks exist because of the current objectives, mechanisms and user-unfriendliness of the arena. However, thru my several posts on the subject I proposed to introduce mechanics change along with handicap system. Basic idea is to make it pug-friendly. If it is not, it will never be useful from both ends. You know as much as I do how boring it is to play spiritway or to play against it. When you face the same stuff 20 times it becomes more boring than chest runs! :grin:

I do not agree to the notion about the new players play more gimmicks because they are new players. Honestly, well ranked teams play them a lot and play them more effectively than the others. Who play more than the other I have no patience to find out. And it is a FACT that if you get a bunch of folks who generally play well, you will be able to play anything better than the other guys who don't generally play well. I think its mostly attitude.

But, I am not the one who will just say that "Its dead and just deal with it!". I would like it to revive and be better than ever before. If I don't enjoy something, why would I do it after dealing with work and traffic? Right?

Also, removing rank from HA wil make it a ghost-town. We need to keep rank system and use it for something better than "Gloat"ing. For over two years rank has just been used for this purpose. Its sad but, true.

I have made PuGs with unranked folks many many times or played with guildies and friends who are not ranked. We won some and lost some. In my experience HA is mostly about knowing the maps and mechanism than anything else.

- Vela

B Ephekt
27-09-2007, 23:44
Absolutely accepted truth. It same went with me as well. Most of my fame came from playing with same set of people. I HA only when they call me..else, I am happy chilling elsewhere. Sometimes I go play with other people or do LFG if I am EXTREMELY bored.Yeah, I played with the same group of 10-12 people from r0 to r3, quit the game for a while, and then came back and played with them all the way to nearly r11. We've picked up some people in our group along the way, but the majority of my HA friends were people I've known for a year+ and would hang out on vent with daily.

It seems like the majority of new players miss the social aspect of pvp. It's like they never try to make friends and just end up attempting to pug everything. That approach will never ever work. It's no wonder some people see ranking up as being impossible, even though it's not. I just fail to see how this is a flaw of the rank system.

let me just check that all you people want HA to be full and competetive again like it was before IWAY right? If so then lets look at the HA community we have today. its mainly comprised of new players trying (and failing) to gain r3, fame farmers and the occasional guild thats bored with everything else enough to play HA. take away the fame and the fame farmers will leave to find another title to exploit easily and boast about. how is this a bad thing?
First off, you're still ignoring the glaring flaws in your "argument," and not really doing anything beyond repeating the same old claims over and over.

Second, why are fame farmers a bad thing? And how will HA survive without them? They have been the only thing keeping HA alive this whole time. The scrubs don't contribute anything because they whine more on forums than they play, the middle tier players will quit when they get their rank stripped away before they even get a chance to earn it, and there's no way the high ranked players will stick around if you remove their rank.

People played for fame from the very beginning, which encouraged others to try to rank up as well, and spawned competition. If you remove fame nobody will play HA. Refute or at least address this claim please, because it's one of the major flaws in your argument.

It's also be nice if you actually addressed one of my points once in a while.


why do you distinguish between "new players trying to gain r3", and "fame farmers"

what are those new players doing if not farming to r3?There is no real difference. It's just that his argument depends on there being an "evil" group of fame farmers who are ruining the arena for everyone else.


And why would those new players even look at HA twice if there was no r3 to get?
They won't. New players get interested because of the emotes.

mmorpg man
28-09-2007, 00:27
People played for fame from the very beginning, which encouraged others to try to rank up as well, and spawned competition. If you remove fame nobody will play HA. Refute or at least address this claim please, because it's one of the major flaws in your argument.

It's also be nice if you actually addressed one of my points once in a while.


I'm sorry for being like an a$$ hole this whole time. I guess I don't want to see the obvious points you've been making. I just see so much potential in HA but can't find a way to figure how to revive it.

B Ephekt
28-09-2007, 00:47
It's probably too late to fully revive HA. The game is too old and too many of the players that made tombs great have either quit GW or moved on to GvG. Anet could still make HA more tolerable, but it's going to take skill balancing and better mechanics.

Wuzzman
28-09-2007, 22:20
what do you mean 'if"

Tombs was played for fame from day 1.

Fame was the original title, and its popularity is probably what inspired them to make PvE titles similar to fame.

so from day 1 HA was screwed...o well. I can sleep peacefully knowing HA is finally burning in hell.

kongkingx
28-09-2007, 23:19
How ever bad the meaning of fame has become now, it is still THE indicator that you pwned other people (noobs, wannabe pros, pros, devs) using whatever build.

bottomline, you pwned.

shardfenix
01-10-2007, 00:51
I don't consider cheating "pwned." Maybe you do because you run those builds. The single most pathetic thing about GW is that they killed all pvp arenas with bad balance changes.

Vela
01-10-2007, 15:52
Ok Wet One and B Ephekt... can I be your friends? So, that I can be one of your in-crowd? :)

Seriously..I think reviving HA can be a good production parallel test for GW2 PvP. If they plan to have a Heroes Ascent sort of arena in GW2, then they must try variety of different changes in GW HA with a large number of people playing it. This will ensure that whatever they do in GW2 won't suck big-time.

The biggest mistake ANET did with PvP was that they took opinion from the people who clout with them and implemented the same with little feedback from others. So, PvP circle became smaller and smaller every day. It is very true that once we get a set of friends to play with, we don't look for others. And it is very true that we are more lenient with friends' mistakes and stupidities much more than we are with other people.

In all fairness, if ANET decided to go with titles to prove a players might in certain aspect of the game, two titles would have sufficed.

1. PvP Hero [ "Look I can Gloat better than you!"]
2. PvE Hero [ "I can pwn Charr!"]

These titles could have been aggregated with comparable calculations intrinsic to Adventurer of North title. This would have reduced discrimination by arena and more and more people would have encouraged to try different things instead of scrubbing FotMs in HA.

- Vela (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Vel)

Shuuda
01-10-2007, 20:17
It's not like the ranked pugs aren't playing gimmicks too. Generally the only people running balanced are higher ranked friends list groups.

Would it be wrong of me to ask for adivce on how to get into HA, since it sound like a damned if I do damned if I don't thing.

Vela
01-10-2007, 20:21
Would it be wrong of me to ask for adivce on how to get into HA, since it sound like a damned if I do damned if I don't thing.

Haha you nailed it friend. It sure is that kinda thing.

- Vela

Shuuda
01-10-2007, 20:33
Haha you nailed it friend. It sure is that kinda thing.

- Vela

The struggling man with common sense will ask for help.
The Stupid struggling man will waste time complaining.

Naturally it took me time to stop being stupid and just ask.

P.S don't refer to me as friend, as I am not.

Ugly Betty
01-10-2007, 21:31
These titles could have been aggregated with comparable calculations intrinsic to Adventurer of North title. This would have reduced discrimination by arena and more and more people would have encouraged to try different things instead of scrubbing FotMs in HA.

plz explain this comment and maybe i'll consider your argument. but for now i agree that fame titles are:


...still THE indicator that you pwned other people (noobs, wannabe pros, pros, devs) using whatever build.

Ranger Nietzsche
01-10-2007, 22:06
Would it be wrong of me to ask for adivce on how to get into HA, since it sound like a damned if I do damned if I don't thing.

Getting into HA is pretty much a case of either

1)Getting your guild to HA together
2)Joining a guild that likes to HA together
3)Getting people from your friendslist to HA together.

B Ephekt
01-10-2007, 23:57
Would it be wrong of me to ask for adivce on how to get into HA, since it sound like a damned if I do damned if I don't thing.
Just form and lead your own groups. When you find people who are good, and that you would enjoy playing - and learning - with in the future, make sure you get on each other's friends lists. Play with people you know, learn together and eventually you will know and be known by enough good players that fame will come easily.

Just make sure you understand map and build tactics before you start a group. People are going to expect you to know what's going on, and what to do. Also don't be afraid to tell people when they're sucking, and how to fix it.

Ugly Betty
02-10-2007, 00:45
Just form and lead your own groups. When you find people who are good, and that you would enjoy playing - and learning - with in the future, make sure you get on each other's friends lists. Play with people you know, learn together and eventually you will know and be known by enough good players that fame will come easily.

Just make sure you understand map and build tactics before you start a group. People are going to expect you to know what's going on, and what to do. Also don't be afraid to tell people when they're sucking, and how to fix it.

unless you are well-versed in the maps and tactics of HA and are very experienced in builds and calling, getting and leading your own group is IMO more of a disadvantage than an advantage. quick and devastating losses will lead to rage quitting and rage in general. it is unlikely you will "learn together" in such a scenario.

a better way may be to get into as many "ranked" groups as possible and develop and friends' list from them. they will soon get to know you as a competent individual and thus you will be on their teams more often. after you achieve a decent rank (r4) the doors of opportunity will really open up.

Vela
02-10-2007, 01:16
P.S don't refer to me as friend, as I am not.

It was a figure of speech. However, with that attitude I am sure you are not getting in my groups. :) Good Luck elsewhere. :grin:

- Vela

B Ephekt
02-10-2007, 02:39
unless you are well-versed in the maps and tactics of HA and are very experienced in builds and calling, getting and leading your own group is IMO more of a disadvantage than an advantage. quick and devastating losses will lead to rage quitting and rage in general. it is unlikely you will "learn together" in such a scenario.

a better way may be to get into as many "ranked" groups as possible and develop and friends' list from them. they will soon get to know you as a competent individual and thus you will be on their teams more often. after you achieve a decent rank (r4) the doors of opportunity will really open up.
Pretty much every good HA player I know got started by forming their own groups.

Additionally, I hardly ever remember pugs unless they're just amazing. But I do remember good leaders.

kongkingx
02-10-2007, 03:26
Pretty much every good HA player I know got started by forming their own groups.

Additionally, I hardly ever remember pugs unless they're just amazing. But I do remember good leaders.


Every bad player I know always wanted to join rank 9++ groups as soon as possible, without getting up there gradually.

aka free loaded.

mmorpg man
02-10-2007, 21:10
a better way may be to get into as many "ranked" groups as possible and develop and friends' list from them. they will soon get to know you as a competent individual and thus you will be on their teams more often. after you achieve a decent rank (r4) the doors of opportunity will really open up.

this is exactly the problem with HA. if an unranked person tries to get into a ranked group (even if they are experienced) then 99% of the time they won't be accepted into the team. the only way is if you know a highranked player or players. although even that can be troble to get into a group with them.

Ugly Betty
02-10-2007, 21:45
Pretty much every good HA player I know got started by forming their own groups.

Additionally, I hardly ever remember pugs unless they're just amazing. But I do remember good leaders.

we must play in different time zones because most of the good players i know (r6 and above) started by getting into pug groups, making friends with the higher ranked players, and then going on their own. but you're right about good leaders, i remember them the most and place them on my friend's list immediately with their permission.

B Ephekt
02-10-2007, 21:54
this is exactly the problem with HA. if an unranked person tries to get into a ranked group (even if they are experienced) then 99% of the time they won't be accepted into the team. the only way is if you know a highranked player or players. although even that can be troble to get into a group with them.
I'm just curious how much experience one can have without being at least rank 3? Does this experience come from other forms of pvp? If so how is it valid? Does it come from the very small amount of fame one has gotten by winning the first few maps? If so how is that sort of limited experience a beneficial addition to a more experienced group?

The problem with HA is that new players don't think of group formation logically. It's a team game. Players want to play with others of similar experience so they can eliminate as many weak links as possible. Rank obviously isn't perfect, but it's a better indication of experience than some guy, who can't prove he even has 1 fame, saying "I'm experienced."

If you can't offer a benefit to a group, why do you belong in it? If the only answer to that question is "because I want fame" then you are trying to freeload.


The best way to get rank is to form your own groups so you can control the quality of the players, builds and tactics. If your groups suck, it's your fault, and you can use that information to improve.

Shuuda
02-10-2007, 22:08
Thank you B Ephekt and Ugly Betty for the tips, but it looks like I got a lot of Obs mode to watch before I'm good enough to actually lead.

mmorpg man
02-10-2007, 23:52
Thank you B Ephekt and Ugly Betty for the tips, but it looks like I got a lot of Obs mode to watch before I'm good enough to actually lead.

obs mode is a good starting point but has its drawbacks. the best way is to do it yourself which is what I've been doing. unfortunately most of the teams in HA run some kind of spike now-a-days which is very hard to play against (especially when running a pressure build which I do a lot).

just to clarify I'm never looking for a free ride in HA. I make my own groups of anyone I can find and don't ask for vent only or r3+ or whatever. the problem is there are not enough people to choose from so I have to make do with who I get.

Ugly Betty
03-10-2007, 00:28
I'm just curious how much experience one can have without being at least rank 3? Does this experience come from other forms of pvp? If so how is it valid? Does it come from the very small amount of fame one has gotten by winning the first few maps? If so how is that sort of limited experience a beneficial addition to a more experienced group?

The problem with HA is that new players don't think of group formation logically. It's a team game. Players want to play with others of similar experience so they can eliminate as many weak links as possible. Rank obviously isn't perfect, but it's a better indication of experience than some guy, who can't prove he even has 1 fame, saying "I'm experienced."

If you can't offer a benefit to a group, why do you belong in it? If the only answer to that question is "because I want fame" then you are trying to freeload.

QFT. i agree with everything except your last sentence which i left out. out of respect for your knowledge.

NitelL
03-10-2007, 17:16
Hey everyone,
I've not posted on this forums for a year or 2 now, and I was just looking back to see what's happening. It saddens me that the GW community has shrunk, but there are a couple of misconceptions I read here that I'd like to clear up. As my last memory of guild wars was a while ago, history is actually still pretty fresh in my head. (: Might be a long post so bear with me.

(Should be quite interesting for those of you who don't know or can't remember the facts.)

Before anything else:
Fame must not be removed. (Although I don't play GW anymore so I couldn't care less.)
It's not fair to the people who earned it. I think it's been discussed over and over so I won't bore you with this. What might be interesting is some history on the FotMs.

IWAY:
Invented by Angry Businessman [aB]. 8 hammer warriors running fear me and iressistable blow. Started off as a joke. Pretty effective, and fun as hell. =P It slowly morphed, incorporating 1 necro, then 2, then rangers. It was never at any point overpowered. There were always points of weaknesses. People tend to forget that the reason why it seemed powerful was because there were 8 damage dealers in the team, compared with the normal 4 (the average number on a normal build at that time, Fall 05 when it was hot.).

Necro builds:
Most of them were actually pioneered by Lulu and gang actually. Minions, b-spike (foc spike etc.), eoe bomb..

Spirit Spamming:
I can't remember who started this, but this was how Sissy Boyz [sB] got famous.

FotMs are actually good training ground for newer players. They are accessible, you can easily join a group, and you learn a specific skills, depending on the rank of the group. Sure, r0-r3 iway grps are generally rubbish, but if you've tried a higher ranked iway grp, learning how to pressure and where to apply damage is pretty important. Battle awareness and position is also very important as you have no monk protecting you.
Spike teams teach coordination. And positioning! Just a couple of examples.

It is very possible to start with r0 and build your way up! Back then in fall 05, I actually formed my own group. Rank 0s. I ran my own version of iway (1 hammer war, 3 axe war, 2 barrage rangers, 2 necros). This was the time when everyone ran 7 wars and 1 nec. I led the group, we won halls. This was the time when player quality and quantity was very high. It IS possible. You just gotta take the time to be patient with your teammates and teach them, and PLAY TOGETHER. Some of these people i played with, eventually became the r12s in WTB and other reputable guilds.

I saw Red Chamalee being mentioned here. I think he's a pretty good example of someone starting out from r0 to r9. I was playing in r10+ grps when he was forming his r3 grps, and he wasn't very good. But I always see his name around, and he build his reputation, improved his game and learned and slowly rose up the ranks and he was playing in high level grps even before he reached those ranks. That being said..

You don't need high rank to be in high ranked groups. You just need to play and be known. Start off in your small groups, the good players always notice when there are good players in their opponents team. "Wow, nice catch by the infuser." "Good pressure by the warrior." I started off monking a lot and soon enough I was invited to r9 teams even when i was only r3. You just need to take that extra effort to make friends, and show them that you know what you're doing, and they'll always invite you to play regardless of rank. Start off by being very good at a class, then when you get better, move on to learn another class. Once you're invited to one high rank group, other high rank groups will invite you because they know you and recognise your abilities. I know a lot of r3-r6 people playing in r10+ groups back then. Everytime I rejoin this game, I always see this too. I think generally, the people who are really fussy about rank are the r5-6/r8-9s. I feel most really high levels groups actually allow newbies to play and will take their time to teach them. have you noticed, that many r10+ grps, don't even ask for emote or title? Generally, people who dare to join a r10+ grp are either good, or they're willing to learn. of course, you've got to pay close attention to what's going on if you're part of the latter.

Rank is actually a good way to learn. You'll learn different strategies from different groups. It's a progression. If you threw a r0 in a r9 grp, he won't understand positioning and awareness when he can barely grasps kiting!

Vent is not necessary in good groups. Most korean groups, believe it or not, don't use vent. There is no need for vent in tombs, even in balanced build, as long as everyone knows what role they have to play. I used to play with Brehon a lot (I'm sure you guys know him, he's the first phoenix. You might not think so, cos' you might play at different time zones, but he was the first.), and we'd run with different players all the time. And the only typing we do is idle chatter. xD In game it's all battle awareness. (Given, we really did only play with high rankers.) And he's just one example. I used to play with a lot of koreans, and they never use vent. (They always type everything out in korean. xD)

Leeloof did not reach r12 playing balanced. Most high rankers got there by running the flavors (spirit spamming, dual smite, air spike, r spike). It was only when they reached the high ranks, got bored with the flavors, and then started trying new whacky balanced strategies. Sure there were the others that played balanced to r12, but these people didn't get their fame as fast as the fame farmers (flavor users). Many of the people I see mentioned got their fame the easy way first, then going on to establish themselves as great players. Don't get me wrong on leeloof, he's probably one of the best mesmers ever in the game.

The beauty of Guild Wars are the staggerring number of builds! The game was not made for just 'balanced'. You could go 8 offensive players and win! You can run defensive builds, you can do gimmicks, you can run virtually anything. Many people discount the flavors are skill-less, but they ARE builds nonetheless. I feel it IS exactly that variety that makes GW interesting. Imagine if every game was 2 wars, 1 ele 1 nec 1 mes 3 monks.

Many of the nerfs were well founded, yet many were actually unnecessary. Usually, the reason why some builds seem over powered is because it's just the exact counter of the current prevalent build.

Sadly, I think it is too late to save tombs. The game is old. But I just wanted to post this, because I felt a lot of the posters here have some misconceptions surrounding pvp. I've had the privillege of playing in very high level groups when pvp was the hottest thing so I'm just sharing my views on this, that might be different from what's being discussed here. (I've also played/guested with EvIL, WM, EW..etc.) [Just wanna say kudos to Soul Wedding and Only One Star, still think they were the strongest backline back then. Soul Wedding is like a cockroach, he. just. won't. die.]

Ok, that was my 2 cents. Long post, was just typing whatever came to my mind. Hope it was helpful or at least interesting for some to read about the distant past. =P

I forgot to mention that there is one more reason for segregation in ranks. If you're new, it really isn't fun to be with the big boys. =\
When I started GvG, because I was pretty well known amongst the top brass from the better guilds, I was invited to join them in GvG, but I realised I really can't keep up with their strategy, the play, or the tactics. It wasn't enjoyable for me. It wasn't enjoyable for them (my teammates). It was better to play in a mid level guild, where I could explore the game, and learn the basics before moving on (Fortunately I got better. =P). Same thing applies with the r3 in a r9 grp. It just might not be that fun.

Vela
03-10-2007, 18:02
FotMs are actually good training ground for newer players. They are accessible, you can easily join a group, and you learn a specific skills, depending on the rank of the group. ............. learning how to pressure and where to apply damage is pretty important. Battle awareness and position is also very important ............... Spike teams teach coordination. And positioning!

Rank is actually a good way to learn. You'll learn different strategies from different groups. It's a progression. If you threw a r0 in a r9 grp, he won't understand positioning and awareness when he can barely grasps kiting!

Vent is not necessary in good groups. Most korean groups, believe it or not, don't use vent. There is no need for vent in tombs, even in balanced build, as long as everyone knows what role they have to play. I used to play with Brehon a lot (I'm sure you guys know him, he's the first phoenix. You might not think so, cos' you might play at different time zones, but he was the first.),

Leeloof did not reach r12 playing balanced. Most high rankers got there by running the flavors (spirit spamming, dual smite, air spike, r spike). It was only when they reached the high ranks, got bored with the flavors, and then started trying new whacky balanced strategies. Sure there were the others that played balanced to r12, but these people didn't get their fame as fast as the fame farmers (flavor users). Many of the people I see mentioned got their fame the easy way first, then going on to establish themselves as great players. Don't get me wrong on leeloof, he's probably one of the best mesmers ever in the game.

The beauty of Guild Wars are the staggerring number of builds! The game was not made for just 'balanced'. You could go 8 offensive players and win! You can run defensive builds, you can do gimmicks, you can run virtually anything. Many people discount the flavors are skill-less, but they ARE builds nonetheless. I feel it IS exactly that variety that makes GW interesting. Imagine if every game was 2 wars, 1 ele 1 nec 1 mes 3 monks.

[Just wanna say kudos to Soul Wedding and Only One Star, still think they were the strongest backline back then. Soul Wedding is like a cockroach, he. just. won't. die.]

I don't know who you are from your forum handle. But what you said is very true. Brehon was in my guild for a bit and also having played with many Koreans, I do know the no-vent-needed practice. Point in fact, many EU players use no vent these days. Not for everyone English is lingua franca.

Shunning FotMs and Praising balance builds is a hobby that most of us have managed to cultivate for a long time. I can gurantee we will have variety of definition of what balanced is when asked to different folks. I do remember iway days of [aB], [MATH] and [aW]. However, [aW] was a solid guild and ran variety of builds. I wish they were still around instead of playing WoW lol. :laugh:

And the evil monks (god they were evil) were like syncronized swimmers. Many many people need to think about their positioning and use of devotion in old boon-prot days. They knew exactly what the other will do and when. Evil ran the most predictable builds with flawless execution. Undoubtedly, the best GW PvP Guild ever.

Bottomline, people need to understand just because a build is overpowered it is not bad. It is what it is and if you can counter it, go do it. And do it well.

NitelL
03-10-2007, 18:24
I don't know who you are from your forum handle. But what you said is very true. Brehon was in my guild for a bit and also having played with many Koreans, I do know the no-vent-needed practice. Point in fact, many EU players use no vent these days. Not for everyone English is lingua franca.

Shunning FotMs and Praising balance builds is a hobby that most of us have managed to cultivate for a long time. I can gurantee we will have variety of definition of what balanced is when asked to different folks. I do remember iway days of [aB], [MATH] and [aW]. However, [aW] was a solid guild and ran variety of builds. I wish they were still around instead of playing WoW lol. :laugh:

And the evil monks (god they were evil) were like syncronized swimmers. Many many people need to think about their positioning and use of devotion in old boon-prot days. They knew exactly what the other will do and when. Evil ran the most predictable builds with flawless execution. Undoubtedly, the best GW PvP Guild ever.

Bottomline, people need to understand just because a build is overpowered it is not bad. It is what it is and if you can counter it, go do it. And do it well.


Actually, [aB] played more than iway. Was quite a good buncha players too.

And EvIL was probably the best group of players. They're individual skill is amazing, and they gel well. WM/EW/Te had some pretty interesting builds. EvIL mostly used the same ol', except their monks was always a step ahead of the pack. (Blessed Light on soul wedding when boon prot was the norm. They ran Mo/A for a bit when Mo/Me was the norm). I can't remember a lot of them old guilds offhand anymore. =\ [emt]? Valandor [Val]? [SKs] (:

[As you can see, I didn't play during nightfall, only prophecies/factions. I played the nightfall preview events, and I had quite a lot of fun with 8 R/Ps in GvG and tombs. lol]

I think one strat I really liked but forgot to mention is Flareway. The first time I ran it, I couldn't hear anything on vent except laughter. 8 Me/E with max fastcast (16) and Flare. That's all. lol "This target!!!" *Click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click*

Vela
03-10-2007, 18:33
Actually, [aB] played more than iway. Was quite a good buncha players too.

I think one strat I really liked but forgot to mention is Flareway. The first time I ran it, I couldn't hear anything on vent except laughter. 8 Me/E with max fastcast (16) and Flare. That's all. lol "This target!!!" *Click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click*

Wasn't that Angry Businessmens IIRC? And yea they were pretty good. Only person I remember playing with from WTB was Fooster again IIRC. It is a long time since I did HA seriously.

Flareway, lol.

NitelL
03-10-2007, 18:39
Wasn't that Angry Businessmens IIRC? And yea they were pretty good. Only person I remember playing with from WTB was Fooster again IIRC. It is a long time since I did HA seriously.

Flareway, lol.

Yup, Angry Businessmens. Other notable people from WTB were Blue Qi and Master Saray. (: It's been even longer since I even logged into Guild Wars. LOL

But I'll always remember flareway. I just decided to try it one day and gathered a few friends to run my 'wicked new idea', then someone had to burst my bubble and tell me they saw flareway being run before. Hmph! I thought I had invented the dumbest way to play the game. Hahaha

B Ephekt
03-10-2007, 22:24
AB didn't create IWAY, they just ran it a lot back in the day. I don't remember the name of the guild who created it though.

They also ran FC Air and a number of other gimmicks.

kongkingx
04-10-2007, 04:59
Vent is not necessary in good groups. Most korean groups, believe it or not, don't use vent. There is no need for vent in tombs, even in balanced build, as long as everyone knows what role they have to play. I used to play with Brehon a lot (I'm sure you guys know him, he's the first phoenix. You might not think so, cos' you might play at different time zones, but he was the first.),


I thought M E A T B A L L was the first phoenix because it was all the galore back then when he first showed it.

And he got it when IWAY was hot, IIRC.


Many of the nerfs were well founded, yet many were actually unnecessary. Usually, the reason why some builds seem over powered is because it's just the exact counter of the current prevalent build.

^

NitelL
04-10-2007, 08:14
M e a t b a l l and Brehon got it about the same time, but I remember seeing brehon's phoenix before meatball. I think a lot of people thought meatball was first because of timezone issues. More people actually saw meatball compared with Brehon. Brehon got there without IWAY though. He ran very interesting korean-style strategies.

(I realised when I played back then, the koreans had a very different focus when they came up with builds, and they are mostly stuck in their Korean Dist, whereas the top American and European players will be in International District for sure. That's one reason why the korean-style evolved differently from the rest. Not saying it's better, just different.)

kongkingx
04-10-2007, 09:22
M e a t b a l l and Brehon got it about the same time, but I remember seeing brehon's phoenix before meatball. I think a lot of people thought meatball was first because of timezone issues. More people actually saw meatball compared with Brehon. Brehon got there without IWAY though. He ran very interesting korean-style strategies.

Meatball got most of his fame on other fotms though. I think he just went with the flow back then and finished off his quest to r12 by doing iway. and he was like a few k's or hundreds away.

But I remember it was Meatball. Otherwise, brehon's pics should've flooded the forums first :P

Or maybe the Korean is such a low profile guy. IDK.

happy feet
04-10-2007, 22:33
What are the chances of R15 this weekend, and what are the chances its a dragon??

B Ephekt
04-10-2007, 22:37
What are the chances of R15 this weekend, and what are the chances its a dragon??I think Leloof is still the only r14 in the game. Unless they can somehow get ~20k fame this weekend, to double up to ~40k, I'd say the chances are pretty damn slim.

shardfenix
05-10-2007, 21:59
Last I heard, the leeloof account hit 70k fame. I still doubt they can get 15,000 fame worth of wins in 3 days.

shardfenix
07-10-2007, 14:13
So I was reading the first 5 pages of this topic and I saw some really good arguments, and some comments I had to lol at...one that stands out is "it's beatable, therefore it's balanced." Youre so silly.

Let's assume that Anet reads their fan forums (they don't, but let's just say they do). What are the chances that they'll care? Anet favors unskilled players. Well...I can't say that for certain. There's a small chance that izzy is the most incompetent game balancer to ever walk the planet. It's more likely that anet favors bad players.

I guess since 90% of pvpers are awareless idiots, Anet caters to them instead of catering to everyone. It's easier if you ignore a minority right. WotC caters to everyone and look how great their games are.

Shuuda
07-10-2007, 16:31
So I was reading the first 5 pages of this topic and I saw some really good arguments, and some comments I had to lol at...one that stands out is "it's beatable, therefore it's balanced." Youre so silly.

That is an arguement that some stupid people do use, I remember the talk I had with my r7 guildy, and that's pretty much what he said "good players can beat it.... etc" he completely missed the point of the broken gimmick builds, kinda shocking to see that people with that rank can actually deny the problems.

kongkingx
08-10-2007, 03:11
That is an arguement that some stupid people do use, I remember the talk I had with my r7 guildy, and that's pretty much what he said "good players can beat it.... etc" he completely missed the point of the broken gimmick builds, kinda shocking to see that people with that rank can actually deny the problems.


Call me stupid but I can actually cite a concrete proof that "good players can beat gimmicks".


Of course, if its beatable, its balanced. All you have to do is to play like those who beat teams with imbalanced builds which happen to beat you always and make you cry in forums. In other words, quit whining, learn to play good.

If its not beatable even you have made the ultimate counter to that build, it is still either the players of the build knew their build well or its imbalanced.

Shuuda
08-10-2007, 09:15
But the kind of gimmicks which are the problem are not made to beat good players. I the impression I've gotten is that these builds allow you to get lots of power, for little skill and effort, hence bad players can easily farm newer players or those slightly above them, and get a rank which makes them look better than they actually are, or somethin' like that.

Ranger Nietzsche
08-10-2007, 16:57
Imbalanced when its unbeatable is a problem with game mechanics, and complaining about it is necessary to even play the game.


Imbalanced when the skill/reward ratio is all ****ed up is a more subtle problem, and complaining about it is necessary to make the game more enjoyable.

But both are imbalanced.

mmorpg man
08-10-2007, 19:42
the worst part of it is that some people (like me) are being forced to play a different profession from what they prefer just to get in a team and get some fame. does that sound like fun? no wonder people leave HA after a week or even a day to something else. I mean who wants to play against sway on every ****ing map?!

kongkingx
08-10-2007, 20:34
Failure lies in relating having fun and skill/game balance.

Ranger Nietzsche
08-10-2007, 21:50
Actually, in a competitive arena, the exercise of skill in a balanced format is the main source of fun.

When an areas source of fun comes from somewhere other than such exercises of skill, that arena is no longer competitive. ie RA and AB, where most users describe the fun coming from trying creative/wacky builds and completely destroying inexperience opponents.

kongkingx
09-10-2007, 01:51
Well, say I suck in the game and I'm trying hard to play a build. And that build that I'm playing is what most of the people are trying to master. With it, I own noobs and I'm having fun of course coz winning is fun. I then encounter a group of no names with a build that they came up with because they hate the crappy boring build that I'm playing and owned me at no time. And a few others started to play it and then whenever I play vs them, I get owned. Now I'm not having fun coz I lose so much. And now I started to blame the skill balancer because this certain build is owning big time.

Yea, fun and skill balance have a very direct connection looks like.

mmorpg man
09-10-2007, 01:55
"balanced" to me means any build that has a balance between the 3 lines (frontline, midline, backline). for instance a balanced team might have 1 derv, 2 para (frontline), 2 ele, 1 mesmer (midline) and 2 monks (backline).

kongkingx
09-10-2007, 02:04
"balanced" to me means any build that has a balance between the 3 lines (frontline, midline, backline). for instance a balanced team might have 1 derv, 2 para (frontline), 2 ele, 1 mesmer (midline) and 2 monks (backline).


The beauty of guild wars is the diverse skill set that made is possible to make build combinations other than that.

"Balanced" destroyed Guild Wars IMO.

mmorpg man
09-10-2007, 02:21
atm sway is destroying HA. its even worse to face than the old ritspike.

grimwold
09-10-2007, 11:57
Balanced VS Sway. And the S doesnt stand for spirits imo.

Balanced team has a lot of work to do :

Hitting trappers so smoke trap doesnt destroy the monks.
Snaring thumpers that are kite proof with there attack and movement speed buffs that are unremovable.
Looking around for spirits to kill.
Interupting ooa and warmongers, either of which will destroy balanced either by removing there energy management and / or by interupting the lod.

S(hit)way has it easy :

Thumpers sit on a monk each, monks cant kite them so no worries about hitting them.
Trappers lay traps, cant get an easier job than that, with there stances half the traps get off anyway even if they are being wanded by the midline of the other team which is more than a little busy anyway.
Rit spams splinter weapon and the broken warmongers on its rangers.
Necro rits sit back with broken soul reaping, spamming skills on recharge seeing as they dont have to worry about there energy ever running out.

Balanced can play its *** off for the entire game and still loose if the rit gets warmongers off at a lucky time or the mes is looking else where, perhaps interupting one of sways 50 hard resses and the necro gets ooa up.

Soul reaping is the most broken att ive ever seen, just stop them getting energy when spirits die already. I bet when the skill balance comes they nerf things like frozen burst or flame djinns haste and leave sway exactly as it is. Im quite close to quitting gw tbh.

mmorpg man
09-10-2007, 12:29
Balanced VS Sway. And the S doesnt stand for spirits imo.

Balanced team has a lot of work to do :

Hitting trappers so smoke trap doesnt destroy the monks.
Snaring thumpers that are kite proof with there attack and movement speed buffs that are unremovable.
Looking around for spirits to kill.
Interupting ooa and warmongers, either of which will destroy balanced either by removing there energy management and / or by interupting the lod.

S(hit)way has it easy :

Thumpers sit on a monk each, monks cant kite them so no worries about hitting them.
Trappers lay traps, cant get an easier job than that, with there stances half the traps get off anyway even if they are being wanded by the midline of the other team which is more than a little busy anyway.
Rit spams splinter weapon and the broken warmongers on its rangers.
Necro rits sit back with broken soul reaping, spamming skills on recharge seeing as they dont have to worry about there energy ever running out.

Balanced can play its *** off for the entire game and still loose if the rit gets warmongers off at a lucky time or the mes is looking else where, perhaps interupting one of sways 50 hard resses and the necro gets ooa up.

Soul reaping is the most broken att ive ever seen, just stop them getting energy when spirits die already. I bet when the skill balance comes they nerf things like frozen burst or flame djinns haste and leave sway exactly as it is. Im quite close to quitting gw tbh.

I feel the same. in fact I was just about to quit and uninstall when I got an offer from a r7 I had played with earlier in the weekend to join his guild made me stay with the promise of GvG.

Wuzzman
09-10-2007, 15:52
The rank system isn't flawed. Its worthless. Its kinda hard for many "good" players to accept this idea that the only form of identification besides guild tag is a piece of garbage. The system has moved beyond simply flawed, its is as worthless as a gladiator title. Any ranking system(as far as pvp is concerned) that does not tally up wins with loses is not flawed but worthless. It smuggles in an element of pve in a pvp game type and cheapens the value of a win. Would you call the gvg ladder "flawed" if loses didn't deduct rating? It would be considered worthless. Ha believe it or not is a tournament (the orginal AT lol) and if you want to full understand how screwed up Ha was from the get go, then tally up the amount of people that still remember that Ha is a tournament. Competition has left the building before Iway become a fotm.

Second problem is very simple. Even a mediocre pvp game separates their game based on experience or ranking system. Why does Anet need to be told that if you put r9, r6, and r3's in the same place as unranked players that you WILL have problems. Players should NOT be left with the task of separating their community. When players do it, it is considered segregation no matter how logically you put it. New players will always lean towards the first sign of experience, even though to be honest the difference between an r6 and a r0 is marginal (how many r6’s have vent?). The community can’t get mad at Anet for separating players of different ranks, but they can easily get mad at players who “Noob emote! You don’t have it? Kick”. That behavior is extremely destructive in an already high strung environment and until you make steps to minimize that then you can have the most balance game in the world and you will still have players leave in droves.

Lol, I might as well be talking to a wall. Pvp forums across the board have been about waving your epeen, the game was better in 2005, and yeah if you couldn’t get you rank the hard way like I did you fail at the game. Sounds a whole like that pve, where if you didn’t grind out your level and farm for gold like I did you obviously fail at the game. When new players have to pug, the pugs are horrible, and the only way to get even modestly good at the game is to randomly meet a good player…and people are wondering why most of the pvp community is in Ra and AB?

Wuzzman
09-10-2007, 15:57
Balanced VS Sway. And the S doesnt stand for spirits imo.

Balanced team has a lot of work to do :

Hitting trappers so smoke trap doesnt destroy the monks.
Snaring thumpers that are kite proof with there attack and movement speed buffs that are unremovable.
Looking around for spirits to kill.
Interupting ooa and warmongers, either of which will destroy balanced either by removing there energy management and / or by interupting the lod.

S(hit)way has it easy :

Thumpers sit on a monk each, monks cant kite them so no worries about hitting them.
Trappers lay traps, cant get an easier job than that, with there stances half the traps get off anyway even if they are being wanded by the midline of the other team which is more than a little busy anyway.
Rit spams splinter weapon and the broken warmongers on its rangers.
Necro rits sit back with broken soul reaping, spamming skills on recharge seeing as they dont have to worry about there energy ever running out.

Balanced can play its *** off for the entire game and still loose if the rit gets warmongers off at a lucky time or the mes is looking else where, perhaps interupting one of sways 50 hard resses and the necro gets ooa up.

Soul reaping is the most broken att ive ever seen, just stop them getting energy when spirits die already. I bet when the skill balance comes they nerf things like frozen burst or flame djinns haste and leave sway exactly as it is. Im quite close to quitting gw tbh.

LOL. If your only anti melee defense is aegis...then yeah you can play your *** off because your bringing a half *** build. Why the **** does the ritualist have the energy to spam splinter? Have you seen the expel bar? the energy management is none. Are doing ANY pressure at all? Why are the thumpers owning your team when all they do is train your monk. If that is the case then any damn warrior with conjure could wipe out your ****ty *** monk backline. Why are you clumped together for traps to have maximum effect. If you are going to camp it wards why the hell are you letting a ranger sit in your face and set traps. Do you even have you monitor resolution right, how hard is it to see.

There is no excuse for a balance to lose to spiritway. Period.

Ranger Nietzsche
09-10-2007, 17:32
The majority of the community is in RA and AB because those formats don't require an organized team.

I don't care how much you "fix" HA and improve the population the majority will STILL play RA and AB because anytime you have Pick up Groups competing against organized guild and friendslist teams over vent the pick up groups will lose, and people will start complaining about how its not fair that they have to play against guild groups etc. etc. etc.


Thats why ANet is putting effort into creating this World PvP thing which is essentially a sandbox for "PvP" players who cant/wont/dont do organized PvP.

mmorpg man
09-10-2007, 18:22
Thats why ANet is putting effort into creating this World PvP thing which is essentially a sandbox for "PvP" players who cant/wont/dont do organized PvP.

when was this announced?

Wuzzman
09-10-2007, 18:45
when was this announced?


look on Guild wars wiki...Ha and TA has not been mention when Anet talked about pvp in guild wars 2. The only forms of pvp that have been confirmed is World Pvp which sounds like a RA/AB meets WoW hybrid and GvG with UAX for pvp only characters.

kongkingx
09-10-2007, 22:21
LOL. If your only anti melee defense is aegis...then yeah you can play your *** off because your bringing a half *** build. Why the **** does the ritualist have the energy to spam splinter? Have you seen the expel bar? the energy management is none. Are doing ANY pressure at all? Why are the thumpers owning your team when all they do is train your monk. If that is the case then any damn warrior with conjure could wipe out your ****ty *** monk backline. Why are you clumped together for traps to have maximum effect. If you are going to camp it wards why the hell are you letting a ranger sit in your face and set traps. Do you even have you monitor resolution right, how hard is it to see.

There is no excuse for a balance to lose to spiritway. Period.

Well said.

Anyway, as I've said, before you check game balance, check your personal skills first because maybe you're not noticing that you suck.

Ugly Betty
10-10-2007, 01:47
look on Guild wars wiki...Ha and TA has not been mention when Anet talked about pvp in guild wars 2. The only forms of pvp that have been confirmed is World Pvp which sounds like a RA/AB meets WoW hybrid and GvG with UAX for pvp only characters.

yeah, i read that too. seems like ANet is thinking with their *** rather than their heads. ****ing retarded IMO. HA is a great arena. it'd be a shame to lose it. guess i'll be playing GW1 for awhile longer.

shardfenix
22-12-2007, 01:58
Thats why ANet is putting effort into creating this World PvP thing which is essentially a sandbox for "PvP" players who cant/wont/dont do organized PvP.

I don't think so. They're probably doing it purely for flavor reasons. They want GW2 to have a "WoW Feel" about freedom and persistence. Anet isn't that good at thinking.

Ranger Nietzsche
22-12-2007, 02:34
all of the stuff I've seen on the World PvP shows that they are copying Dark Age of Camelot's PvP a lot more than WoWs.

kongkingx
22-12-2007, 05:29
PvE dramas (town control disputes/farming location disputes/inter guild disputes/etc) that will inevitably lead to Guild/Alliance PvP, territory invasions and massive PKing ALA Spartans versus Persians is GUILD WARS.

And it is not some organized GvG or AB-like arena ******** that we have today and hopefully those given much emphasis in GW2.

Wuzzman
22-12-2007, 06:25
doesn't AB suck because the objectives avoid actually fighting? I can win an AB by fighting in the smallest amount of skirmishes possible. I'm not really interested in more "objective oriented" pvp with random players....I guess this is why instead of having 6-8 versions of the same two arena's(RA and GVG) that favor the same two player types(Pugs and Organized players) they just have 2. The Guild Wars version of Battleground, and GvG.

personally after playing guild wars I have no big desire to run into a rpg game sword blazing with hope and a prayer that 6 people didn't target lock you at once, let alone two. In other worse, fight by mass noobness of frantic clicking isn't something I like to think about in Guild Wars. I don't like win conditions that discourages actually confronting your enemies like the **** we have in AB .

shardfenix
22-12-2007, 07:27
doesn't AB suck because the objectives avoid actually fighting? I can win an AB by fighting in the smallest amount of skirmishes possible. I'm not really interested in more "objective oriented" pvp with random players....I guess this is why instead of having 6-8 versions of the same two arena's(RA and GVG) that favor the same two player types(Pugs and Organized players) they just have 2. The Guild Wars version of Battleground, and GvG.

personally after playing guild wars I have no big desire to run into a rpg game sword blazing with hope and a prayer that 6 people didn't target lock you at once, let alone two. In other worse, fight by mass noobness of frantic clicking isn't something I like to think about in Guild Wars. I don't like win conditions that discourages actually confronting your enemies like the **** we have in AB .

That's exactly why nobody plays HA anymore. Anet added too many BS objective maps.

Vela
23-12-2007, 06:54
Well there is a difference between playing "Fish" vs. "Contract Bridge" even though both uses cards. World PvP is a good idea. Game is for relaxation and not a job really for me. I wanted the funky tiger emote so played there for 3 months; got it and got out of HA. I still wonder why some folks having phoenixes already still play there. I would rather GvG after r9 if I want to continue in PvP path.

At any rate, in GW2 arenas must be segregated by rank so that the whole thing does not blow completely out of proportion. I have a feeling GW2 will be completely WoWized.

Wuzzman
23-12-2007, 18:42
That's exactly why nobody plays HA anymore. Anet added too many BS objective maps.

map objectives don't keep players from HA'ing. not getting into groups keep players from HA'ing. If *** map objectives is a deterrent for players then why does AB have twice has many people as HA?

kongkingx
24-12-2007, 00:21
map objectives don't keep players from HA'ing. not getting into groups keep players from HA'ing. If *** map objectives is a deterrent for players then why does AB have twice has many people as HA?

And for sure you have the guys who "paid the game to actually play, not to sell themselves to some scrubby hardcore pvpers". That's why RA, AB and PvE is where the people at.

Don't we need more click, zone and play arenas?

Wuzzman
24-12-2007, 19:22
well...those click and play arena's are generally ****...AB and RA being an example.

Ranger Nietzsche
24-12-2007, 23:25
isn't two enough?

kongkingx
25-12-2007, 03:01
I think everything except GvG should be click and play.

shardfenix
25-12-2007, 05:38
The fame title should have a new description:

"This title portrays a rough estimate of the number of battles won in Heroes Ascent. Having higher rank doesn't make you good, so stop talking smack to the people who earned it with real builds."

mmorpg man
25-12-2007, 15:13
The fame title should have a new description:

"This title portrays a rough estimate of the number of battles won in Heroes Ascent. Having higher rank doesn't make you good, so stop talking smack to the people who earned it with real builds."

here here. also I find it quite ironic that ranked players call unranked players "PvE noobs" when some of the builds came from PvE. to name 1 in particular the SS warrior. funny isn't it.

Wuzzman
25-12-2007, 15:56
The fame title should have a new description:

"This title portrays a rough estimate of the number of battles won in Heroes Ascent. Having higher rank doesn't make you good, so stop talking smack to the people who earned it with real builds."

haven't earned **** if you can't lose it.

kongkingx
26-12-2007, 04:21
Every build is real. There is no imaginary builds.

The skill is how good you smack talk high ranks and low ranks alike.

if a rank 1 can smack to a rank 11 real good, then he's pro. and we all know how easily can a rank 11 can smack talk a rank 1, aight?

Karn the Betrayer
28-12-2007, 09:59
Nobody can get a paragon to level 20 and beat tombs in 2 hours 18

or should that be its impossible to get to lvl 20 in that time on most characters unless you got nothing better to do than play GW (ok playing GW is good but you gotta take a break a person died after playing a rpg for too long)

shardfenix
29-12-2007, 04:03
or should that be its impossible to get to lvl 20 in that time on most characters unless you got nothing better to do than play GW (ok playing GW is good but you gotta take a break a person died after playing a rpg for too long)

Yes but then you would have to beat tombs. 2h:18m to power level to 20 is cutting it really really close to what is possible. I was just trying to think of things to put on the list at the time I posted.

kingkongx, if you had any common sense, you would be able to assume what the term "real builds" means. Thanks.

Offatwork
29-12-2007, 06:22
This post is regarding the difference between balance and gimmick builds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This material is straight from the Guild Wars online Website, in a previously posted state of the game acknowledgment:


When it comes to Heroes' Ascent many people use the term "gimmick" when defining most team-builds because they compare the builds to GvG. The problem with that comparison, however, is that Heroes' Ascent and Guild Battles have different objectives. The objective in every Guild Battle is to kill the enemy Guild Lord (or give each player on the opposing team 60% Death Penalty). The objectives in Heroes' Ascent, though, change with each map. The criteria for determining whether a build is balanced or "gimmicky" are essentially different for Heroes' Ascent than for Guild Battles. Also, gimmick builds in Heroes' Ascent are often used to farm fame in the first map or two, while balanced builds are used to progress all the way to the Hall of Heroes.

One way to determine if a build is balanced or gimmicky is to examine how well it can adapt tactics to achieve the objectives and challenges on each map. Can the build split well and be mobile enough for the Antechamber's control points? Does it provide options for relic runners when playing in Unholy Temples? Is there enough offensive power to win in Annihilation maps like the Underworld? Questions like these are an effective way to determine the balance of a build.

************************************************

So, if a balanced build is one that can change its tactics to adapt to various maps, a gimmick build is one that cannot do that. With that in mind, a build that uses two or three midline characters and makes a large investment in Hex spells isn't necessarily a gimmick build. Similarly, having characters with many different professions doesn't make a build balanced. The key is what options a build has to win. A build like Ranger spike that can only win by spiking opponents down over and over is a gimmick. When a build can only do one thing well, it cannot be described as balanced because there is no balance in it.

To conclude, and to paraphrase in my own words, many top guilds advise players to run a balanced build (in terms of GvG) since it offers many advantages over gimmick builds:

1)It teaches someone how to play the game better, far more than a Gimmick build does.

2) A balanced build is less prone to a Guild Wars nerf.

3) A balanced build requires more micromanagement and macromanagement from a team; again making a better player and a better team.

oles
29-12-2007, 07:11
This post is regarding the difference between balance and gimmick builds.

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This material is straight from the Guild Wars online Website, in a previously posted state of the game acknowledgment:



To conclude, and to paraphrase in my own words, many top guilds advise players to run a balanced build since it offers many advantages over gimmick builds:

1)It teaches someone how to play the game better, far more than a Gimmick build does.

2) A balanced build is less prone to a Guild Wars nerf.

3) A balanced build requires more micromanagement and macromanagement from a team; again making a better player and a better team.

1) Not true and not real. Running a balanced build position teaches only how to play that position. No more.
2) No comment.
3) Not true and not real. Playing any build's position requires some micro- and macro-management. *In general*. A better player will be he who can adapt faster or learn to play efficiently. Running a superior (balanced) build does not teach skill (gw pvp skill) any faster. Again, in general.

mmorpg man
29-12-2007, 19:49
imo it is easier to beat a balanced build with something like a spike or iway. it is therefore harder to beat a spike or iway with balanced so therefore balanced builds take more skill to master.

kongkingx
30-12-2007, 00:06
kingkongx, if you had any common sense, you would be able to assume what the term "real builds" means. Thanks.

Why use common sense when you can easily use a dictionary? Coz common sense doesn't have that common ground. What is real build to me may be not real to you.

But I know what you're saying and it's almost idiotic to refer one build as real build, imo.

kongkingx
30-12-2007, 00:14
This material is straight from the Guild Wars online Website, in a previously posted state of the game acknowledgment.

You know what's funny? A.NET released all these skills that we currently have and ironically they set a "build standard" on what's what or what's what not. See, there will be less confusion and all that what they said on that GW page will be acceptable and I won't carry on criticising if asap, they remove all the skills which can be used to make gimmicks and are cluttering my skill pool window and just keep the desirable skills for balanced build.

And if that happens, there won't be "balanced vs gimmick, iway fake fame versus balanced real fame sourgraping bullcrap whines, or whatever" threads anymore. Just "I'm leet in running balanced, and you're not" threads.

Wuzzman
30-12-2007, 02:56
this discussions get unnecessarily heated because usually neither side has a realistic approach to the other. This game has been pushed around by idealism for a while. You want to know the honest truth between balance and gimmicks? Balance builds are simply several gimmicks under one hood.

You really have two options for killing anything pressure or spike. There are several sub-options that aid the killing process like snaring, shutdown, interrupts, and other stuff that are conductive to intelligent play. Any build in guild wars is suspect by the very nature of the game to an overload of any 1 option. And in all honesty a gimmick is really just an overload of 1 option. In HA that is generally ok. Since the map objectives encourage that type of play style in the first place. In GvG a gimmick build can never get a foothold since the objectives and even the sub-objectives destroys the effective of many builds off the get go. It's hard to get around the need for a flag runner, protecting your npc's and at the same time holding it together at the flag stand.

It is really not inherently harder for a balance to beat a gimmick in fact it is very much the other way around. A balance build, properly designed generally can do both options(pressure and spike) quite well, while packing enough sub-options to dismantle the other team. A balance team losing is always due to the improper use of your options. It's like having a toolbox but acting like the hammer is really all you have. Really the only reason playing balance teaches you the game because you are inherently are exposed to the use of a lot of options in the game and you get to see what it does to the other team first hand.

All decent pvp games lead players to a natural evolution of their skills. Eventually as they win and lose more matches they hone their abilities and pick better options available. In guild wars that means all players eventually play balance. Not saying that fotm's aren't half decent builds, they do work, unlike some builds I know....but balance when you really want to play the game seriously is the better options by a large margin.

That is only because as the options a build provides increases(well better to say if the build has many options), so does the strategies and tactics available which means, no matter how good you get the build will follow your skill level closely. The same can't be said about gimmicks. R9 iway = r0 iway and the only real difference is that one has more experience then the other so generally the R9 group won't completely fall apart in the latter maps while the r0 group will be too busy yelling at each other to even pose a challenge. But that difference so is marginal considering that r9 iway will play the first 2 maps exactly the same as an r0 iway and will probably get the same results, IE they lose, in quite the same fashion a r0 iway would even if it did make it past the first 2 maps. Assuming that the r9>> a r0, your ability doesn't increase the effectiveness of the build by a significant margin.

The build doesn't follow you, your skills and your knowledge will get better but your ability will never show cause a gimmick is a gimmick nothing more nothing less. It's like buying a computer who's software and hardware you can't upgrade or change. It may be good for the first 3 years, maybe 5 but soon what you want to do from your PC grows the ability of that PC lags far behind.

kongkingx
30-12-2007, 06:38
When both teams are using identical/same builds, whether gimmick or balanced, experience and skill are key in winning.

Using different builds, ideally, the one playing balanced wins not only because all gimmicks are nerfed, as you've implied, but also balanced are designed to beat non-balanced builds by just bringing say 3-4 counter skills and not sucking.


..R9 iway = r0 iway and the only real difference is that one has more experience then the other so generally the R9 group won't completely fall apart in the latter maps while the r0 group will be too busy yelling at each other to even pose a challenge..

I'm sorry but you failed giving a very strong argument there in your attempt to contrast gimmicks and balanced.

This is like saying, "The rank #1 balanced build team = The rank #50 balanced team". Why? We all know that ideally, a high rank rangerspike is better than low rank rangerspike. Both of the teams have access to the same options and functionalities of the rangerspike build and rank is a strong proof of experience and skill on a particular build(s) that players used to get their rank thus the high rank is likely to pwn the low rank (provided that both are actively playing and obviously, rank 9+ who stopped playing for years will likely to get pwned by r4 guys who play like almost everyday and getting steady amounts of fame, you get the point, rite). Oh did I use "rangerspike"? Replace that underlined word with "iway". Fits?

Oh how about replacing that with "balanced"?

It still fits, right?

But everything else you said sounds good to me. :D

shardfenix
30-12-2007, 11:52
But I know what you're saying and it's almost idiotic to refer one build as real build, imo.
Nowhere have I said only one build is "real." I look at "real builds" as a build archetype not limited by skill or profession combinations, but limited by how easy they are to use.

I'm sorry but you failed giving a very strong argument there in your attempt to contrast gimmicks and balanced.A gimmick is a way of making an action easier than intended.


When both teams are using identical/same builds, whether gimmick or balanced, experience and skill are key in winning...

"The rank #1 balanced build team = The rank #50 balanced team". Why? We all know that ideally, a high rank rangerspike is better than low rank rangerspike. Both of the teams have access to the same options and functionalities of the rangerspike build and rank is a strong proof of experience and skill on a particular build(s) that players used to get their rank thus the high rank is likely to pwn the low rank (provided that both are actively playing and obviously, rank 9+ who stopped playing for years will likely to get pwned by r4 guys who play like almost everyday and getting steady amounts of fame, you get the point, rite). Oh did I use "rangerspike"? Replace that underlined word with "iway". Fits?Or, if both teams have at least one player who is "unskilled," he or she may tip the game in their favor without knowing it, simply by mashing buttons. Although most top guilds who run identical builds do need to rely on skill to win, it's the mediocre players running gimmicks elsewhere that make matches have a seemingly random victor.

Wuzzman
31-12-2007, 04:22
When both teams are using identical/same builds, whether gimmick or balanced, experience and skill are key in winning.

Using different builds, ideally, the one playing balanced wins not only because all gimmicks are nerfed, as you've implied, but also balanced are designed to beat non-balanced builds by just bringing say 3-4 counter skills and not sucking.



I'm sorry but you failed giving a very strong argument there in your attempt to contrast gimmicks and balanced.

This is like saying, "The rank #1 balanced build team = The rank #50 balanced team". Why? We all know that ideally, a high rank rangerspike is better than low rank rangerspike. Both of the teams have access to the same options and functionalities of the rangerspike build and rank is a strong proof of experience and skill on a particular build(s) that players used to get their rank thus the high rank is likely to pwn the low rank (provided that both are actively playing and obviously, rank 9+ who stopped playing for years will likely to get pwned by r4 guys who play like almost everyday and getting steady amounts of fame, you get the point, rite). Oh did I use "rangerspike"? Replace that underlined word with "iway". Fits?

Oh how about replacing that with "balanced"?

It still fits, right?

But everything else you said sounds good to me. :D

hmm no kongknox. I sorta kinda probably did explain the difference on well the paragraph before and after the little stanza you picked out. It really doesn't matter if your r9 using rspike or r0 using rspike, if you have a caller who can count to three the difference between you is so marginal that only when that r9 group happens to come across the r0 group that the difference actually matters. There difference between a experience balance group and a not so experience balance group is huge.

While a match between an r9 iway and a r0 iway may last 20+ minutes at the least, a match between a r100 guild balance and a r1k guild balance (or at least someone playing balance at those levels) would last no more then 5 minutes at the most. Even rank 500 level can steam roll a pug group around the r1k level in less then 3 minutes.

It's the same with pretty much every gimmick, when experience gimmick fights unexperience gimmick the difference is so small that the match last for an eternity, only in builds like heroway or SF way does the matches end quickly but almost always in those cases in victory won by coin toss rather then with experience and skill. Only in the most stale meta has a r100 balance been stalemated by a r1k balance.

kongkingx
31-12-2007, 05:46
So, same thing applies. Ok. :D


While a match between an r9 iway and a r0 iway may last 20+ minutes at the least...

Huh? I don't know if you're exaggerating to make a point or what.

Of course, that's not true. Tell that to anyone who got R1x+++ purely with IWAY and for sure he'll laugh at you.

Wuzzman
01-01-2008, 04:46
I've been in r0 iway plenty of times. Barely active guild that HA's as much as they gvg (once a month). The matches last for 20+ minutes with the r9 iway usually winning unless EoE bomb triggers mass explosion and some r0 ranger or necro is the only one left standing.

Djinn Effer
01-01-2008, 10:40
It's dead because I quit. :heart:

Vela
01-01-2008, 18:19
It's dead because I quit. :heart:

True True. :)

Glamor left! I want no glamorless HA!

Katy K
02-01-2008, 04:56
It's dead because I quit. :heart:

For the 10th time?

Djinn Effer
03-01-2008, 09:59
For the 10th time?

Somewhere around there, but I haven't been back to GW for ~8 months. I was on a recently a bit looking for friends, then I randomly gave a friend one of my r9 accounts, then I decided I'd get another set of FoW since I had the money for it, it was really cute too... So I was on for a little bit oogling at the armor and talking to people, but that was about it... No PvPing for me, in fact... The only PvEing I did was 1 FoW forgemaster thingy which took about 40 mins to get my armor... lol.

But yeah, I have quit GW a lot. It's a game that you can quit and come back to, not easily for PvP, but I'm sure it's true for PvE.

But anyways, my characters are just super cute, so I log on to look at them every now and then. That, and keep leadership of Marvel Superheroes.

But um... Wasn't "HA dead" like almost 2 years ago..? lol!

Offatwork
03-01-2008, 11:09
Running a balanced build position teaches only how to play that position.

I don't understand why you think I was talking solely about positions in a balanced build. Since I wasn't, and was actually talking about subjective and objective viewpoints on a team (and since you might not always run the same "position" on a balanced team), I guess this quote can be disregarded; since it was a misunderstanding or simply doesn't apply.


Playing any build's position requires some micro- and macro-management.

Fortunately a balanced team has a better understanding, or will develop a better understanding, of micro and macro of a team than a gimmick team.


*In general*. A better player will be he who can adapt faster or learn to play efficiently. Running a superior (balanced) build does not teach skill (gw pvp skill) any faster.

I argue that it does, since the opposing cannot argue the same thesis.

A) Gimmick builds crumble when hit on the weak spot of their build and not one player on that team can do little to anything at all about it, in order to prevent destruction of the team. Essentially, their macro and micro crumbles to pieces because they really didn't have them.

Look at Lego for example - shut down the two Paragon's anthems, and then pressure the monks; problem solved.

B) Sure a team can run a gimmick build (there will always be some as long as passive, fire and forget skills still exist) in hopes of getting a team with lesser skill; but this team, in a perfect game, would never make it relatively close to the high scale matches. Balanced builds, given enough training, should out preform gimmick builds in macro and micromanagement.

I was reading an article that said Dark Ally played only balanced builds because they think it is superior to all other forms of builds; since with skill, it can conquer anything that gets thrown at it. The only time they would run any type of gimmick would be to understand its weakness. They would use this knowledge to fine tune their technique on their balanced team so they can exploit the gimmick's weakness; if they run into it.

They further go on to say that, when playing a balanced build for the first time, the team should have just enough defense to stay alive, then remove some of that defense over time, when people develop their skill more.

Moreover, what I would like to see is a variety of good balanced builds to play. Not a bunch of gimmick builds to play (rock paper scissors sucks).

mmorpg man
03-01-2008, 14:03
can I ask those who read this who like using gimmick builds why? is it because you think them superior to balanced builds? is it because they don't need to think of their own build? or maybe its because they don't have the theory of synergy to be able to make their own builds. anyone have an answer for me?

Juiced
03-01-2008, 15:01
can I ask those who read this who like using gimmick builds why? is it because you think them superior to balanced builds? is it because they don't need to think of their own build? or maybe its because they don't have the theory of synergy to be able to make their own builds. anyone have an answer for me?
I sometimes play paragon infuser on a zergway team, u learn to watch ur radar to see who is affected by ur chants, u learn to watch the battlefield to see what's going on, u practise catching spikes.

So let's use zerg as an example, it's NOT superior to balanced builds, what makes it good is the fact it can easily roll over crappy and mediocore balanced builds. The player in these mediocore or crappy balanced teams often don't counter it properly, spirits (Nature's Renewal and Tranquility) should be taken down asap, so if u have a PD mesmer, give him the boring task to stop the spirit spammer. Use ur protection, wards, aos, aegis chains, snares, etc, if it's coordinated it screws up the damage output and adrenaline building from the SS warriors. Keep killing the paras until all res signet are wasted, kill the spirit spammer (hard resser), keep ur ghostly alive, kill the rest.

If some team members do the wrong things, ur balanced party gets whiped, especially on annihilation maps, because the pressure is getting the best of u.

Until zerg reaches later maps, where they fail, they can't keep ghostly alive long on king of the hill maps (no prot), they can barely run (1 charger and 1 spirit spammer), they have no hex removal, so the simplest hexes and some body blocking prevents u from running relics. And the list goes on, ending that most people in lower or unranked zerg parties still have no clue what the point of higher maps is.

I for myself played in some balanced groups, and despite losing alot those battles have been way more fun than any I fought in zerg. Hence I only play zerg to get fame, because experience (and people on here) tells me there is only one way to the top, the hard way. High ranked parties will not take ur hand and let u come along, because 1 guy not knowing what he is doing ruins the run for all. So there we zerg scrubs are, playing zerg over and over to gain rank, or maybe make some friends who vouch for u, just to be able to play the better builds, builds that are actually capable of winning against everything, builds that are balanced :tongue:

So when I loose I try to ignore the comments in local saying 'go back to pve' or 'learn how to play'. And when we win I try to ignore the comments in local saying 'u suck', and 'u should try and play a real build'. I was actually learning and before I can play a decent build in a decent party I need a decent rank.

To those who play zerg because it is fun (especially warrior), I have no clue why u like it. For me it's learning grounds. Glad when I'm rid of it :tongue:

Ate of DK
03-01-2008, 15:05
Gimmick build players who copy a balance build aren't playing that build well when you compare them to the good balance build players. And they tend to get farmed by their own gimmick build when they play balanced. And decide to play the gimmick build again.

Vela
03-01-2008, 18:27
can I ask those who read this who like using gimmick builds why? is it because you think them superior to balanced builds? is it because they don't need to think of their own build? or maybe its because they don't have the theory of synergy to be able to make their own builds. anyone have an answer for me?

They are fast, effective to farm fame and pretty easy to set up for a quick show on the road.

Anyhow, another double fame weekend for those who STILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL don't have the tiger.

Gogo!!

shardfenix
03-01-2008, 21:01
can I ask those who read this who like using gimmick builds why? is it because you think them superior to balanced builds? is it because they don't need to think of their own build? or maybe its because they don't have the theory of synergy to be able to make their own builds. anyone have an answer for me?

Gimmicks exist because most people don't want to try (it's easier).

It's not accurate to say "all gimmick players are bad." I have introduced friends into the game and given them "easier" builds to run just to get started and get some unlocks.

A more accurate version would be "all gimmick players who have owned the game for more than a few weeks are bad."