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View Full Version : Was the great wall a huge mistake in planning?



jayson
29-10-2007, 03:50
The majority of Ascalon is actually in front of the wall and not behind it. Why would it be built this way? Originally I had thought the wall was originally planned as a defensive measure for an attack from the south, possibly Kryta. But it's usually assumed that the wall was built as a defensive measure against the Charr. But if it was to keep out the Charr, why not build the wall further north? The Charr seem to be well known to Ascalon before the searing and for that matter why keep your capital cities where they are? Wasn't the threat of invasion at least a possibility that would've at least brought up the idea to move the majority of your population behind the wall?

Troal
29-10-2007, 03:59
I think Ascalon was originally built with the majority of the population behind the Wall, but with the in-fighting amongst the Charr without a powerful leader, the Ascalons grew bold and pushed the Charr back further into their own lands. By building settlements beyond the Wall, they solified their claim over conquered Charr territory, and the disorganized tribes could do nothing to stop them. It wasn't until the Charr found the Titans and their unity of purpose in religion that they managed to become a truly credible threat to humanity.

SurviverX
29-10-2007, 04:18
The Charr lore on PC Gamer made human sound like the evil one. The Charr was in Ascalon first, then came the human. The human driven the Charr north and built a wall to protect themselves from the Charr that want their land back. The human and charr have fought for ages over the history, but the charr were never successful. They saw the human worship gods, and in return are granted magic. They become hungry for power, and adopted the Titans as their god. Throught their god's power, they finally struck down the wall only to be killed by King Adelbern's "white sword" magic.

So yea..the wall was originally built to protect against the charr. But before the Charr have god, human were much more powerful and driven the Charr far north. So the wall became useless and people start to built homes outside of the wall.

jayson
29-10-2007, 04:25
That could be a credible answer except for the fact that there's little evidence of a larger population behind the wall. All of Ascalons major ruins are north of the wall and it doesn't take much to assume that you needed a large workforce to build it. There's no place to house them on the south side. Sure there's Fort Ranik but I would assume it's more of a military housing and not a place for the citzens of Ascalon. Other then that you have Serentiy Temple ,two small villages and a church. No real evidence of a large population anywhere in the south. If the people of Ascalon were so bold as to build north as a show of dominance then it's rulers had failed in the walls planning. Why build a wall to defend yourself and then not use it?

Ranger Nietzsche
29-10-2007, 05:19
Um, Ascalon City and Rin, the two largest cities in the country, are both behind the wall. Nolani is behind the wall. Barradin's Estate is behind the wall. Ashford was behind the wall.

The only major cities north of the wall were Surmia and Drascir.

mocax
29-10-2007, 05:35
I thought Rin's where stormcaller was.

In GW, the notion of good and evil are subjected to one's point of view, very similar to the real world (eg Korean War, Vietnam, Israel etc)

jayson
29-10-2007, 06:48
My thought was that Ascalon City was the home of the king and the surrounding area of his home is the market place. As for Barradins Estate, I'm sure it was his land and not a place for the general population. Nolani Academy looks to be north of the wall on the map. And like Fort Ranik wouldn't house a general population. Rin on the other hand is clearly south of the wall and it was my mistake for not paying attention to that. It still doesn't explain why Surmia and Drascir are built North of the wall. My point was why build anything north of the wall when you're enemy lives there?

gervasium
29-10-2007, 07:22
Actually, Nolani is on the northern side of the Wall. Rin is on the south. In the nolani mission, you have to cross a gate in the Wall to go south (in a cinematic).

Karn the Betrayer
29-10-2007, 07:43
as you see in GWEN much of the Charr homelands did belong to the humans cause I seriorusly don't see Charr building elegant bridges let alone enjoy beautiful waterfalls

Gmr Leon
29-10-2007, 21:35
Actually, it looks to me like the majority of the Ascalonians lived in the Eastern Frontier region. Where there's a huge crater next to Serenity Temple looks to have housed a moderately sized population and it looks like south of it there were at least two large cities.

Karuro
29-10-2007, 21:47
as you see in GWEN much of the Charr homelands did belong to the humans cause I seriorusly don't see Charr building elegant bridges let alone enjoy beautiful waterfalls
The humans TOOK their land. I doubt any Ascalon got any further than the crater we see on the world map. It'd be suicide to run into a large charr army for them. Unless you're the Ebon Vanguard, who's forced to do so.

Basically to sum it up why Drascir and Nolani were built north of the wall:
They got cocky.

Humans arrive with their Gods and drive the Charr away.
Humans claim the land as "Ascalon" and build a gaint wall to keep the Charr out.
Humans & Charr fight around North of the Wall. Humans think they're winning quite a bit, and build more cities to conquer land, thinking they're winning the war and the Charr are weak now.
Charr pick up the Titans and blow up the Wall, searing all of Ascalon.
"Haha, Humans".
Years pass and Humans kill the Titans.
Charr go "WTF" basically and their leader seeks a new god quickly to keep the warbands together.
Those new Gods (the destroyers) get wiped out along with the leaders band.
Pyre's daughter(?) rises to power and wants payback.
Charr take over Ascalon.
Stubborn Adelbern annihilates everything in Ascalon with his sword magic.

Ranger Nietzsche
29-10-2007, 23:55
The surmia description plainly states that it was build in a time of optimism when they had the charr pushed back.

Drascir is where it is because there was an entrance to the Hall of Heroes.

pinoycliff
30-10-2007, 02:53
From what I got in the Tyrian lore, the Great Wall was built as a protection against the Charr when the Charr sieged Ascalon. So before the Charr came the wall wasn't even built and cities was build in that northern area. The Ascalon thought they could handle the Charr invasion. But once they started to lose. they build the Great Wall to hold back the Charr.

Kailden Jera
30-10-2007, 11:01
From what I got in the Tyrian lore, the Great Wall was built as a protection against the Charr when the Charr sieged Ascalon. So before the Charr came the wall wasn't even built and cities was build in that northern area. The Ascalon thought they could handle the Charr invasion. But once they started to lose. they build the Great Wall to hold back the Charr.

A wall that big would take half a century to build. That thing is huge! Even the great wall of china is smaller in structure size.

Skyy High
31-10-2007, 06:00
The Great Wall of China is ~4000 miles long. Are we really saying Ascalon is that big? Kinda throws off the measurements of Tyria.

Plus, there's the catch-all for things that seem impossible - magic. Ascalonians have magic, we don't. Who knows what kinds of architectural spells people can perform; we're heroes, not smiths or architects, so naturally we don't know them.

psionicflames
31-10-2007, 10:11
After all, it requires certain spells to open certain doors, implying that magic is as much a part of any construction as mortar. This might be why the Searing had to be so...erm..over the top? in its destructive power, to not only breach the wall itself but the magic protections supplied/imbued by/within it. Possible?

Kailden Jera
31-10-2007, 12:16
The Great Wall of China is ~4000 miles long. Are we really saying Ascalon is that big? Kinda throws off the measurements of Tyria.

Plus, there's the catch-all for things that seem impossible - magic. Ascalonians have magic, we don't. Who knows what kinds of architectural spells people can perform; we're heroes, not smiths or architects, so naturally we don't know them.

I impiled that, while the Great Wall of China is extremely long, the size of the Ascalonian Wall dwarfs in HEIGHT the Wall of China.

China is huge, Ascalon is small. The Wall of China is as huge as a 3 story building, Ascalons can be as huge as a 6 story building in some portion. Is all a matter of proportion.

Skyy High
05-11-2007, 16:53
Okay....so the Ascalon wall is roughly twice as high as the Great Wall, on average. Which would mean that it would still need to be 2000 miles long to equal the same amount of bricks and mortar. That's still a ridiculous number; Ascalon is probably no more than a couple hundred miles wide, if that - someone who's worked on measuring Tyria could give the actual number.

FOOZBEAR
05-11-2007, 18:31
well in regards to why the wall is not defending the ENTIRE ascalon nation.

History shows us that walls get built....but population increases...so they build OUTSIDE the wall and in times of attack they retreat to the wall.

Lord of the rings....the deep was the LAST stand place.

Minas Tirith ....one city with a huge wall....but they had the settlements outside and the town on the water.

If you ever go to Norwich...in the Uk...you can see the remains of the wall that was used to defend the city. The wall is VERY close to the center of the city and would therfore make it ideal to defend from.

ascalons wall was probably built to be the last fall back point for the nations defenders. if you build your wall on the OUTside boundry of your nation it would take a while to get the defenders which would be housed NEAR the centre of the nation to the wall. in which time the wall would be breached and there would be NOTHING to stop the tide of enemies.

if you house the defenders NEAR the wall you would need MORE defenders to watch the wall due to its length than one closer to the main city which will be smaller in length.

a wall 100 meteres long needs 10 times more troops than one that is 10 meters.

giving numbers here....most castle parapets and walls can have 3-4 deep of men that can repel attackers. so on a 100feet wall you would need 400 people to defend it....where as on a 10 feet wall you only need 40....with the other 360 to replace the men that died.

so the ascalon wall is probably in the right place...and it was well defended until the charr cheated!

Karn the Betrayer
05-11-2007, 18:52
I think the Ascalon's wall was based on the Great Wall of China

Skyy High
05-11-2007, 21:02
Based on, certainly (especially given how well the Charr compare to the Mongols). It's using the size of the Great Wall to claim that the Great Northern Wall is too big for Ascalon to build that I have an issue with.

I also have a feeling that the Wall was not defended terribly well most of the time. I mean, in presearing, we don't see guards posted everywhere along the wall. When some Charr sneak in, guards are dispatched to take them out; there clearly is no "wall guard" on post continuously. What this suggests to me is that the Wall was built so high in most places so it could be a "build and forget" structure: the Charr were not thought to posses magics capable of destroying it, so Ascalons pretty much thought the Wall would defend them nearly on its own.

auserator
05-11-2007, 21:30
ascalons wall was probably built to be the last fall back point for the nations defenders. if you build your wall on the OUTside boundry of your nation it would take a while to get the defenders which would be housed NEAR the centre of the nation to the wall. in which time the wall would be breached and there would be NOTHING to stop the tide of enemies.

i think this sounds about right, if the wall was only built in 898 AE (170 years ago) then it's only really been defending Ascalon for a small part of it's 1100 year history. So it seems like it was originally built either as a response to one large historic Charr attack (perhaps the one that destroyed Drascir?) or as a general deterrent to deep territorial raiding. Where's that PC Gamer article on Charr history again? Perhaps it mentions something about an event 200 years ago...

Gmr Leon
07-11-2007, 14:21
i think this sounds about right, if the wall was only built in 898 AE (170 years ago) then it's only really been defending Ascalon for a small part of it's 1100 year history. So it seems like it was originally built either as a response to one large historic Charr attack (perhaps the one that destroyed Drascir?) or as a general deterrent to deep territorial raiding. Where's that PC Gamer article on Charr history again? Perhaps it mentions something about an event 200 years ago...

It doesn't. Although it does mention that the humans basically pushed the Charr north as originally the area the Kingdom of Ascalon occupies was Charr territory.

kerinad
04-12-2007, 14:38
I can't remember the timeline exactly so all of what I say here may very well be completely incorrect so please excuse me.

The reasons for the various settlements being built North of the Wall for the most part is quite simple; In the cases of Nolani and Surmia, not only were they built in times of optimism but also they house academies that trained many of the powerful warriors that Ascalon had to offer up in defense of it's land. Drascir was built where it is because, as stated there was an entrance to the Hall of Heroes there but also it was built in the time when Doric was king of Ascalon, when Dwayna first showed herself to men, or at least the tomb at Drascir where great heroes such as Lord Victo are buried was built at this time.

The Wall itself was built later on in comparison to a fair few of these settlements. I mean the Ascalonians would have gathered around the academies because those students with families would need to live close to where they were being taught so it's a case of working out when the academies were built in comparison to the wall to determine whether or not the academies were sacrificed knowingly or not and therefore discerning if the building of the Wall was infact a massive foul up on behalf of Ascalon or if it would have been fine had the Charr not had access to the powers they used to bring about the Searing.

Gmr Leon
04-12-2007, 21:32
Lord Victo was buried in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, just so you know.

Karuro
04-12-2007, 21:37
Lord Victo was buried in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, just so you know.
To add on, I think the Tombs of Drascir from the Devona-crew-Lore has been changed to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings when the game actually went live or something.

Gmr Leon
04-12-2007, 21:46
To add on, I think the Tombs of Drascir from the Devona-crew-Lore has been changed to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings when the game actually went live or something.

That's what I've pretty much assumed myself, albeit a good story.

Timolas
10-12-2007, 17:43
What I've always wondered is how Bonfaaz Burntfur and his entire army managed to destroy Rin without even feasibly crossing the Great Northern Wall.
Could they have gone around and struck from the mountains?
The gate guards are alive and intend on stopping Rurik at first, acting like they don't even know what is happening at Rin.

Skyy High
10-12-2007, 18:34
Yeah...I always wondered about that too.
"Sir, I can't open this door, it'll let the Charr in!"
*opens door*
*looks at burnt city*
"Dammit sir, I told you they'd get in!"

Sandotyu Akaoni
25-12-2007, 02:19
well in regards to why the wall is not defending the ENTIRE ascalon nation.

History shows us that walls get built....but population increases...so they build OUTSIDE the wall and in times of attack they retreat to the wall.

Lord of the rings....the deep was the LAST stand place.

Minas Tirith ....one city with a huge wall....but they had the settlements outside and the town on the water.

If you ever go to Norwich...in the Uk...you can see the remains of the wall that was used to defend the city. The wall is VERY close to the center of the city and would therfore make it ideal to defend from.

ascalons wall was probably built to be the last fall back point for the nations defenders. if you build your wall on the OUTside boundry of your nation it would take a while to get the defenders which would be housed NEAR the centre of the nation to the wall. in which time the wall would be breached and there would be NOTHING to stop the tide of enemies.

if you house the defenders NEAR the wall you would need MORE defenders to watch the wall due to its length than one closer to the main city which will be smaller in length.

a wall 100 meteres long needs 10 times more troops than one that is 10 meters.

giving numbers here....most castle parapets and walls can have 3-4 deep of men that can repel attackers. so on a 100feet wall you would need 400 people to defend it....where as on a 10 feet wall you only need 40....with the other 360 to replace the men that died.

so the ascalon wall is probably in the right place...and it was well defended until the charr cheated!

I live in norwich and that is indeed true,also you have to think you wouldnt want to build a wall like that on the front line during times of war. It would be a huge task for the already over streched army to defend it while it is being built. It makes sense to build around the capital and military centres. First its easyer to build there with less threat of being attacked whilst building and secondly its tactically sound, because as mentioned people from out lying settlements can fall back into the capital thus everyone can be easily defended.
Well thats how i see it anyway ^^

Nazpharoz
30-12-2007, 00:52
Just a little note on the Acadamies on northern side off the wall.

It's build their in the time off the guildwars, the great hero's who will defend and attack in thus guildwars would be trained inside thus acadamies.
why make them south off the wall open for attacks from other guilds when the students aren't practiced enough to defend well if you might make one north in saver area?

the magical towers to defend the acadamy are supricingly also on the southern side off the acadamy, their where the guilds from Orr and Kryta where able to rush thus acadamies to kill the students before they become a treath for themself.

this might making towns north off the wall also more attractive then having them all south.