View Full Version : Balancing AB
Akirai Annuvil
12-12-2007, 16:10
At the moment there's a large imbalance inherent to several AB maps, most obviously Kaanai and Ancestral. This imbalance makes them far less fun to play, as it's (1) hard to enter the central base, (2) the defending side has a numerical advantage thanks to an increased NPC number and (3) one side has far easier mobility. This means you don't need to play better than the other team to win, you need to play much better. Since it's AB this can be done by the more PvP savvy folk, but is generally not something attainable for the PuGs. Changing this would make these maps more fun to play as they're on a more even ground, making skill far more of a noticeable factor.
Now prefferably, I'd see them replaced by completely neutral maps, however it's clearly to late in development to see such an implementation so I'll easily settle for a few relatively minor changes to balance out play and allow for more aggressive tactics from the offensive party.
Allow the teleporters to teleport opposing faction members. At the moment they do not, forcing the members to retreat through the gates. This change allows people to extend into the base far more easily as they're guaranteed a safe route of escape.
Let the Explosion Kits respawn every 1-2 minutes, allowing the disadvantaged team easier access to the homebase and thusly more raid like tactics. Have repair kits respawn at a slower rate.
Change the NPC spawns at shrines to spawn the same number of NPCs regardless of being the defending or attacking party, to decrease bias currently inherent in these maps (applies to Grentz Frontier and Etnaran Keys too).
Discourage people from solo capping, by just noticeably slowing the rate of capping with 1 person further.
If possible increase the amount or effect of Defiled Water. At the moment, you can near completely ignore it's presence on the map. Also increase the amount of Defiled Water on Kaanai Canyon (where there currently is none).
Possibly allow people to shadow step past gates and unlock them from the inside (if this change was added, there is no need for respawning explosives). Again it'd allow for more raid like tactics, however it could overpower the shadow step in AB and lead to a further rise of Assassin popularity (which is already quite high). I personally feel the new tactics possible would more than make up for the rise in ninja fans.
Space out the NPCs so they're nearby range from each other lessening the effectiveness of adjacent range AoE (goes for all maps).
Allow Alliances to issue challenges for ABs to other Alliance's, increasing the importance of Guild Alliances and creating a new organized PvP experience Allow for 4 guests (spread over the three teams) and a maximum of of 4 heroes (which count as guests, not allies).
Adjust the Underdog bonus, lowering them on Kaanai and Ancestral's to Grentz like effect.
Psychotic Death X
12-12-2007, 16:27
Thats how its meant to be, since your pushing the opposing force back into there homelands.
yeah it's called home field advantage...
Akirai Annuvil
12-12-2007, 22:07
Thats how its meant to be, since your pushing the opposing force back into there homelands.
Thank god people care about lore when balancing ****.
No they don't.
yeah it's called home field advantage...
See above.
If homefield advantage creates an unbalance in favour of one side, get rid of it or lessen it. Balancing the game is ftw.
Psychotic Death X
12-12-2007, 23:18
Thank god people care about lore when balancing ****.
No they don't.
See above.
If homefield advantage creates an unbalance in favour of one side, get rid of it or lessen it. Balancing the game is ftw.
It is balanced, the whole idea is that if your side is doing bad, your side is given a advantage. If your being pushed back Kaanai or Ancestral then you deffinately need the advantage.
And with a score bonus for winning on those maps as attackers, I really don't see what the problem is.
Actually the same could be said for Etnaran Keys and Grenz Frontier. IMHO Etnaran is far more one sided than Grenz is. But it is meant to be one sided. Otherwise how else can one push out of their homelands.
Meh... some of its a nice idea... specially getting rid of some of the NPCs.
But all i'd like to see is some decent frigging faction from AB. 1500 for a win in Saltspray is ********... i get 1500 for a win in Ancestral AND Grenz. Faction should ALWAYS be like it is in a double weekend event...
Akirai Annuvil
13-12-2007, 14:50
It is balanced, the whole idea is that if your side is doing bad, your side is given a advantage.
Soooo, the maps are balanced becuase they give one side an advantage over the other? That's not really the conventional meaning of balance.
If your being pushed back Kaanai or Ancestral then you deffinately need the advantage.
This might have been an argument back when the map switch system wasn't hacked and broken by the pendulum rule they implemented.
And with a score bonus for winning on those maps as attackers, I really don't see what the problem is.
They're not fun or skilldriven. You know there's a large amount of chance that you'll lose, even if the other side plays like complete crap. A nice reward doesn't balance out such an obvious imbalance, nor does it make them as fun.
IMHO Etnaran is far more one sided than Grenz is.
Actually, the maps are pretty much exact copies.
But it is meant to be one sided. Otherwise how else can one push out of their homelands.
By playing better than the other side.
But all i'd like to see is some decent frigging faction from AB. 1500 for a win in Saltspray is ********... i get 1500 for a win in Ancestral AND Grenz. Faction should ALWAYS be like it is in a double weekend event...
I never really cared about the faction (it's a nice source of jade and amber, but not really worth anything as FFF is simply 10x faster), but it would be nice yeah :smiley:
Ranger Nietzsche
13-12-2007, 22:23
Akirai, its SUPPOSED to be one-sided in favor of the defending team.
But game balance is around the WHOLE experience, not just balance in one aspect.
Its Balanced by the rewards being so much Higher for the attacking team.
the ettins kiss
13-12-2007, 23:44
I wouldnt mind faster territory changes, doing ancestral lands for an entire sunday(Im kurzick) isnt my idea of fun. perhaps it should be more like this.
ancestral 1 hour
grenz 2 hours
saltspray 3 hours
etnaran 2 hours
kaanai canyon 1 hour
btw is there any reason at all when there is a map change that teams should automatically disband?
Akirai Annuvil
13-12-2007, 23:53
Akirai, its SUPPOSED to be one-sided in favor of the defending team.
Ritualists were supposed to be passive defences; the game has changed. Likewise the rules of ABs have changed. It used to be incredibly rare to be on one of the deep maps; people complained, anet added the pendulum effect, making it incredibly easy to reach the deep maps. Now I'm complaining that the deep maps aren't fun because they lack a balance between both sides, and tbh just lack viable overall strategies.
But game balance is around the WHOLE experience, not just balance in one aspect.
Its Balanced by the rewards being so much Higher for the attacking team.
The rewards are relatively worthless; sure you gain a higher reward for higher challenge, but the amount by which the challenge increases is imo disproportianate with which the challenge increases, and regardless the reward itself is lacking in comparison to other PvE related, less challenging ways to achieve an even bigger reward. The 'balance' between how fast you can gain the title with PvP play, in comparison to PvE play is skewed. so the reward:challenge ratio isn't really balanced either, looking at it as a whole.
I wouldnt mind faster territory changes, doing ancestral lands for an entire sunday(Im kurzick) isnt my idea of fun. perhaps it should be more like this.
ancestral 1 hour
grenz 2 hours
saltspray 3 hours
etnaran 2 hours
kaanai canyon 1 hour
The main practical problems with such a system that I've seen would be timezones; some would be stuck more with certain maps (not sure if that's the case with the times you're suggesting).
Ranger Nietzsche
14-12-2007, 00:43
I don't really see whats so hard about attacking on the deep maps.
4 organized people will win them a good 75% of the time anyway, which nets you better faction.
At 5k a win during the double weekend in deep Kurzick land I was netting ridiculous amounts of faction.
idiots. When your on the other sides home turf, they are suppose to be able to repel you more easly then you can repel them. Other wise alliance battle will be literally stuck on one map....
I wouldnt mind faster territory changes, doing ancestral lands for an entire sunday(Im kurzick) isnt my idea of fun. perhaps it should be more like this.
ancestral 1 hour
grenz 2 hours
saltspray 3 hours
etnaran 2 hours
kaanai canyon 1 hour
^ I would support this. As far as I can tell, the map was Kanaai Canyon all through the day yesterday, except for three hours when it was Etnaran Keys. I was hoping we'd move to Saltspray after that, but nope, apparently the Luxons were sucking enough that it warranted another couple of hours on Kanaai.
Though I won a fair amount of matches on Kanaai, so I'm not complaining too hard :P -- 2.5k faction per win? Yes, please.
^ I would support this. As far as I can tell, the map was Kanaai Canyon all through the day yesterday, except for three hours when it was Etnaran Keys. I was hoping we'd move to Saltspray after that, but nope, apparently the Luxons were sucking enough that it warranted another couple of hours on Kanaai.
Though I won a fair amount of matches on Kanaai, so I'm not complaining too hard :P -- 2.5k faction per win? Yes, please.
^ yeah what she said.
I don't really see whats so hard about attacking on the deep maps.
4 organized people will win them a good 75% of the time anyway, which nets you better faction.
At 5k a win during the double weekend in deep Kurzick land I was netting ridiculous amounts of faction.
qft.
My guild (Kurzick) has the most members playing when Kaanai (the map that favors Luxons most...) is on.
Challenge + 2.5 K faction 8/10 times.
I really don't mind the underdog bonus. They added it so players wouldn't give up in the enemy-favored areas. (particularly Ancestral and Kanaai)
Ancestral just isn't worth pugging as a Luxon w/o the bonus.
thor thunder
18-12-2007, 19:00
hey luxons win plenty too i made 20,000 faction 5 strait wins in Saltspray on suday till like ~7:30 then all the good people left and kuz benidiction monks came in then they started winning =(
but yeah i agree they favor some maps a little too much and some new ones would be nice =D
Some Dude
20-12-2007, 03:15
I disagree wholeheartedly with several points you've suggested, although I am a fan of one point. In order:
1-2 & 6) It is tactically a bad idea to go into the enemy's base. You should only ever do it when you control both outside res shrines, and in that case the enemy are all going to res inside their base, making it impossible for you to hold - which means you should never do it. Making it easier for people to get into the bases is therefore going to make it more likely that the underdog team will lose.
The shadow stepping idea would also have unpleasant repercussions in gvg.
3) There is supposed to be bias in the maps. The reason the fight was pushed back to those maps in the first place is because of an overabundance of scrubs playing for one side compared to the other. Having even NPC numbers will just mean the scrubs will continue to be pwnt, which makes for a boring game for both sides.
4) The rate of solo capping doesn't need to be slowed, it is already very slow. Anyone who caps solo wants to be a "hero" and will likely not be deterred from trying to do so with this change. On the other hand, if you're the only one left after your noob team runs off to die, you shouldn't be disadvantaged by having a slow solo-cap time.
5) I've never even read the description of defiled water. It certainly seems useless. I'm not sure why it would need to be buffed, since it is easily avoided by either side. Remove it from both maps if you want balance, or else place it to hinder one side more than the other, and buff its effect as you suggest (in keeping with the defendability for the home team theme).
7) Spacing out the NPC's is a good idea. I second this motion. NPC's are stupid, and fire ele's consequently own AB's. Additionally, I'd suggest giving NPC's a full skill bar, requiring a proper team to take them down.
8) If alliances are allowed to issue challenges, it shouldn't be tied to the moving border line, since smurf alliances of the opposing faction could be created ^^. Other than that I have no objections.
9) I have no idea what the Underdog bonus is, or how it's different for various maps - enlighten me?
Liselle Morrow
20-12-2007, 12:29
The whole point of these maps is not to be balanced at all. You tend to end up in deep homeland maps of your faction not simply because the enemy plays so well but because the general portion of your faction plays like crap. Everyone always assumes that winning in Ancestral Lands or Kaanai Canyon as the invading team is only possible if you're all amazing players, but this isn't true. A large portion of it depends on the defending team and how savvy they are on tactics. If they're crap, even a mediocre cap team can win. If they're not crap, winning will indeed be difficult, but then that's the whole point, because the more you lose, the sooner you'll be out of these maps and back onto more balanced middle ground.
This is important from a game-mechanic point of view because the outcome of AB has significant effects on the real world map, hence having players stuck in deep kurzick or deep luxon for extended periods of time is not beneficial to the game's design. That's why these maps should stay imbalanced as they are, because they prevent the battles from becoming too one-sided when one faction is clearly stronger than the other.
Rawr Im Kuji
20-12-2007, 16:55
i think the current underdog bonuses and the map advantages add a side of strategy and tactics to ab. Yeah all you have to do it cap, but under certain circumstances that might include tactics to help win that cap area. Im not a hardcore ab player, but ab a fair share. I think the system could be tweaked but overall its a decent system
shardfenix
05-01-2008, 21:00
It is balanced, the whole idea is that if your side is doing bad, your side is given a advantage. If your being pushed back Kaanai or Ancestral then you deffinately need the advantage.
And with a score bonus for winning on those maps as attackers, I really don't see what the problem is.
No, if your side is doing bad, you suck. You don't get bonuses for losing in GvG, why should you in AB?
How to fix AB (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5233655#post5233655)
Some Dude
05-01-2008, 23:18
No, if your side is doing bad, you suck. You don't get bonuses for losing in GvG, why should you in AB?
In GvG if you're doing bad, it's because your chosen team is bad.
In AB if you're doing bad, it's because it's "noob hour" for your side, and they're dragging you down. You can't control it. A map change to balance out the total tards makes it more fair for the real players.
No, if your side is doing bad, you suck. You don't get bonuses for losing in GvG, why should you in AB?
How to fix AB (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5233655#post5233655)
because AB is not GvG. And to reiterate SomeDays point, the purpose of those maps is to prevent AB matches from getting stuck on map for days and weeks at a time. Players want to see the map change from one side to another, however they generally have little control over that since AB is really 12v12 RA. So Anet made sure that as you get deeper in one side territory that side gets the advantage meaning that maps will change automatically due to the increasing benefits the losing side receives. This is what keeps the noob omelets happy and really changing that won't "fix" or "balance" AB.
what you need to really fix AB? oh I don't know put the Battle back in Alliance Battle. I can win an AB match on any map by simply avoiding as many enemies as possible even 1v1 duals or 4v4 skirmishes. Hope that the other teams and players on your side is doing the same and if they are you almost always win the match. Thats stupid. You spend more time killing npc's then you do players and when you do kill players your the one who is losing? WTF and we call that a pvp arena? 2 solutions.
1) Bring the other shrines extremely close to the rez shrines. In fact no larger then 1 argo bubble away from the rez shrine. Why? To force people to FIGHT EACH OTHER, not run around in circles and turns capturing alters into a necessity not only for points but because they provide an Npc advantage in the slug fest. To do this AB maps will have to become smaller or more NPC shrines created, but most likely smaller AB maps will result. and slight adjustments to NPC AI because they no longer stand and defend the shrine but help out in the engagement at the rez shrine. Make the side holding the rez shrine gain more points per kill and cap then the ones who don't.
or
2) Allow everyone to bring the max number of heroes they can carry(3) in AB. Meaning each person has control of 3 heroes make it 64 vs 64. You don't have to change the maps, because the maps will become to small to run around and avoid engagement. This will also result in quicker AB matches (that is better for the kurz side anyway). Also makes the end game AB maps more epic and chaotic and will encourage sieging the castle instead of running around it like a little pussy.
will either happen. probably not. Will it be good for AB, well the current AB is persistent pve. while my suggestion is well crude pvp. Persistent pve<<<<<<<<<crude pvp.
perverted hermit
22-03-2008, 22:09
I don't really see whats so hard about attacking on the deep maps.
4 organized people will win them a good 75% of the time anyway, which nets you better faction.
At 5k a win during the double weekend in deep Kurzick land I was netting ridiculous amounts of faction.
what about the potentially totally disorganised 8 people on your team?
anyway i like the system as it is. it would make sense that you would face a more difficult challenge as you get further into enemy territory. you couldn't expect to enter the gates of mordor, only to have a nice cup of tea with lord sauron (pointlessly random lotr reference)
There is nothing wrong with the way AB is currently, if you want different kind of PvP, there are different kinds for you. Stop tryign to fix something that isn't broken.
Offatwork
24-03-2008, 06:32
1-2 & 6) It is tactically a bad idea to go into the enemy's base. You should only ever do it when you control both outside res shrines, and in that case the enemy are all going to res inside their base, making it impossible for you to hold - which means you should never do it. Making it easier for people to get into the bases is therefore going to make it more likely that the underdog team will lose.
I don't think you understand the concept on why people should attack the defending force's base. It consists of 2 cap shrines and 2 assist henchmen; that's a lot to take away from the opposing enemy (since it is their advantage from the very start of the match).
Usually I send my team in to destroy that area in order to drive every-single-player controlled foe back to their base. I most often do this when we are not capping quick enough outside. Then generally, since we have control of the choke points, we can control that area for a good 1-5 minutes; well enough to secure a win for our team. Really the only way for them to kill us is if they surround us from all sides, which rarely happens because most people are so confused on what to do or something so they panic.
Now guess how many people really only need to do this: 4. That means that when all the enemy's forces are trying to drive us away from their base, our other team, who are too chicken **** to attack the base in the first place, are capping the important shrines outside without any resistance at all besides the NPC's.
Ugly Betty
24-03-2008, 20:05
I don't think you understand the concept on why people should attack the defending force's base. It consists of 2 cap shrines and 2 assist henchmen; that's a lot to take away from the opposing enemy (since it is their advantage from the very start of the match).
Usually I send my team in to destroy that area in order to drive every-single-player controlled foe back to their base. I most often do this when we are not capping quick enough outside. Then generally, since we have control of the choke points, we can control that area for a good 1-5 minutes; well enough to secure a win for our team. Really the only way for them to kill us is if they surround us from all sides, which rarely happens because most people are so confused on what to do or something so they panic.
Now guess how many people really only need to do this: 4. That means that when all the enemy's forces are trying to drive us away from their base, our other team, who are too chicken **** to attack the base in the first place, are capping the important shrines outside without any resistance at all besides the NPC's.
thanks for the explanation. one can only hope that those who read it will also understand and implement it.
despite being able to hand pick your own team it is still the fickle finger of fate that picks the other 8 idiots. and although i realize capping is important i can never stop laughing and pausing a moment when i throw clumsiness and ineptitude on a flurry sin. ah well...
IMO AB would be better if they completely trashed the two deep maps, fixed the imbalance in distance to shrines on Etnaran and Grenz, gave same number/type of NPCs to each side when a shrine is captured and put the three middle maps on random rotation.
Screw lore.
and although i realize capping is important i can never stop laughing and pausing a moment when i throw clumsiness and ineptitude on a flurry sin. ah well...
Whats even better than that is when you use that noob skill...you know....empathy. And the sin (blind from ineptitude mind you) attacking you falls dead at your feet and questions your sexuality for using such a noob skill. AB is a blast as a mesmer!
Some Dude
25-03-2008, 00:08
I don't think you understand the concept on why people should attack the defending force's base. It consists of 2 cap shrines and 2 assist henchmen; that's a lot to take away from the opposing enemy (since it is their advantage from the very start of the match).
Usually I send my team in to destroy that area in order to drive every-single-player controlled foe back to their base. I most often do this when we are not capping quick enough outside. Then generally, since we have control of the choke points, we can control that area for a good 1-5 minutes; well enough to secure a win for our team. Really the only way for them to kill us is if they surround us from all sides, which rarely happens because most people are so confused on what to do or something so they panic.
Now guess how many people really only need to do this: 4. That means that when all the enemy's forces are trying to drive us away from their base, our other team, who are too chicken **** to attack the base in the first place, are capping the important shrines outside without any resistance at all besides the NPC's.
That's a nice idea, but you're forgetting the first principle of AB - the other 8 guys on your team suck.
You can bet your bottom dollar that while you're in the enemy base for 1-5 minutes, your allies will either get owned at the res shrines, or completely mob, or worse not even try to cap them.
The res shrines are much, much more important than any other shrine. You need to ensure those are capped first. This implies making sure the shrine between them is capped, since if it isn't your res shrines are about to be stolen from you.
Only then should you look at storming the other team's base, but to do that you need to control one of the ranger shrines... which means that you control 4/5 of the outside shrines. Which means you're winning anyway.
Point: storming the base never wins you games, it's there for entertainment purposes only.
botrytis
25-03-2008, 01:10
I just think the maps could be tweaked to really force capping versus mobbing. Just tweak the maps to allow for more coordinated team versus mob play.
Some Dude
26-03-2008, 01:12
I just think the maps could be tweaked to really force capping versus mobbing. Just tweak the maps to allow for more coordinated team versus mob play.
You can lead a noob to logic, but you can't make him think.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.1 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.