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shardfenix
05-01-2008, 21:58
Here's a fictional GvG scenario.

One team's guild hall has all the normal NPCs. ~12 archers, ~3 footmen, 2 knights, bodyguard, guild lord. The other team has ~12 archers, ~3 footmen, 2 knights, 2 curse necros, 4 blindbot/sirspike eles, and 6 bodyguards. Guess who wins?

The two extreme maps in Alliance Battles (Ancestral Lands and Kaanai Canyon) give us the same scenario. One team always starts with somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 extra NPCs more than the other team (NPCs which cannot be captured), which happen to be placed so that they defend 2 shrines and 6 extra NPCs that can be captured. Playing on these maps is not fun. The same way fighting a 16v8 in tombs is no fun. When one team has a guaranteed 2 extra shrines and the other team has no advantage, can you call that balanced pvp?

The only possible way to win these maps is if the defending team has at least twice the amount of mentally retarded players on their team than you do, which although happens sometimes, has nothing to do with strategy or execution. Since coordination between 3 separate groups is impossible, winning this map, for the most part, is a random event.

Aside from the inherent "auto-win" these maps give the defending team, it's annoying to hear the "LMAO YOU GUYS GOT OWNED 500-300" from players whose combined IQ is less than a chair's.

Take Kaanai Canyon and Ancestral Lands out of rotation. The other 3 maps are more fun, require strategy and execution, and give both teams a nearly equal chance to win.

perverted hermit
06-01-2008, 03:10
Here's a fictional GvG scenario.

One team's guild hall has all the normal NPCs. ~12 archers, ~3 footmen, 2 knights, bodyguard, guild lord. The other team has ~12 archers, ~3 footmen, 2 knights, 2 curse necros, 4 blindbot/sirspike eles, and 6 bodyguards. Guess who wins?

The two extreme maps in Alliance Battles (Ancestral Lands and Kaanai Canyon) give us the same scenario. One team always starts with somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 extra NPCs more than the other team (NPCs which cannot be captured), which happen to be placed so that they defend 2 shrines and 6 extra NPCs that can be captured. Playing on these maps is not fun. The same way fighting a 16v8 in tombs is no fun. When one team has a guaranteed 2 extra shrines and the other team has no advantage, can you call that balanced pvp?

The only possible way to win these maps is if the defending team has at least twice the amount of mentally retarded players on their team than you do, which although happens sometimes, has nothing to do with strategy or execution. Since coordination between 3 separate groups is impossible, winning this map, for the most part, is a random event.

Aside from the inherent "auto-win" these maps give the defending team, it's annoying to hear the "LMAO YOU GUYS GOT OWNED 500-300" from players whose combined IQ is less than a chair's.

Take Kaanai Canyon and Ancestral Lands out of rotation. The other 3 maps are more fun, require strategy and execution, and give both teams a nearly equal chance to win.

i sort of enjoy playing as the extreme underdog. its more embarassing for the opponents when you beat them 500 118 (that was fun:grin: ) in their own territory. its also embarassing for you to lose in your own territory though. so i get enjoyment as well as annoyance from the deep luxon and kurzick maps.


i find the people who boast about narrow wins in their own territory are amazingly hilarious. if i win 500 300-400+ in my territory (deep) i just think, well we won it because of the territory, but oh well faction for meeeee (randomness)



p.s. i must admit i do prefer etnaran keys and grenz though (more randomness, was meant to shut up ages ago):sealed:

Wuzzman
06-01-2008, 05:46
yeah RA teams should fight zaishen elite before entering into "RA", cause HA has it and I can't imagine what will happen if HA didn't have the zaishen elite to bottleneck all the noobs. Next we should have relic run objectives in RA and VoD for AB.

shardfenix
06-01-2008, 07:14
yeah RA teams should fight zaishen elite before entering into "RA", cause HA has it and I can't imagine what will happen if HA didn't have the zaishen elite to bottleneck all the noobs. Next we should have relic run objectives in RA and VoD for AB.

I posted a serious, legitimate suggestion in hopes that intelligent people would post their thoughts about it. Be critical, constructive, or take your brainlessness somewhere else.

Kendel
06-01-2008, 10:25
Removing them is a bit extreme.

But they should probably reduce the amount of time spent on it, ie instead of every 3 hours the faction line changes make it every 1.5 if your in the far territory.

I mean you rarely get more than 1k faction on Ancestral/Kaanai, and to win while heavily disadvantaged is a rare thing (anyone telling me otherwise is full of it frankly), its just not worth the effort.

the ettins kiss
06-01-2008, 10:47
I would like the duration of ancestral and kaanai to be severely reduced.
In addition to that removing the momentum bonus on those maps altogether.
But removing the maps entirely seems a bit unnessescary to me

Ranger Nietzsche
06-01-2008, 11:42
i like them cuz they mean lots of extra faction for less work when I win in opposing deep over and over again.

Wuzzman
06-01-2008, 17:42
I posted a serious, legitimate suggestion in hopes that intelligent people would post their thoughts about it. Be critical, constructive, or take your brainlessness somewhere else.

but your suggestion lacks understanding of AB period....you don't control the outcome of an AB map any more then if you roll a dice and happened to pick the right number. If someone made a thread about removing the prot line cause the "real" strategy is in healing prayers then should I respond to that intelligently too?

Sir Jack
06-01-2008, 18:22
Err, the shrines inside the base can be captured and recaptured, it's just a bit harder to do, except if you've got a good team going, in which case you can capture and hold those shrines inside their base for quite some time.

Zalis
06-01-2008, 19:20
Keep the extremes. The extra challenge is healthy. It promotes the idea that the Faction conflict is ongoing and changing daily. Also, if you remove two maps then we're down to three. Thumbs down to that.

I won a few Ancestral Lands maps in a row yesterday vs Kurzicks, so there's no saying it can't be done. The extra Faction is quite nice too.

Masoj Hunett
06-01-2008, 23:44
You can't tell me it isn't logical that the further into the opposing force's territory and the closer to their main base, the more resistance you will face. I enjoy the extra challenge, especially when I win, which I've done many times. Even if you don't win, as long as you have a somewhat competent team you'll get close to, if not more, 1000 faction.

the ettins kiss
07-01-2008, 00:28
You can't tell me it isn't logical that the further into the opposing force's territory and the closer to their main base, the more resistance you will face. I enjoy the extra challenge, especially when I win, which I've done many times. Even if you don't win, as long as you have a somewhat competent team you'll get close to, if not more, 1000 faction.

Its not that the deep maps are too hard or dont give enough faction.
But do they have to last for 6 hours each time?
As a Kz player I see ancestral way way more often then I would like. Being Kz at ancestral = rarely any challenge and running in circles most of the time. Do you mind if there are some people in here thinking that 6 hours is a tad too much? None of the other maps last 6 hours on end. Except for Kaanai.

Amadei
07-01-2008, 09:38
Being Kz at ancestral = rarely any challenge and running in circles most of the time.

Not to mention the very, very, very long waits to get in a match in the first place :|. That's the main reason I don't play Ancestral very much, besides it not being much of a challenge. This:

http://pics.livejournal.com/fraught/pic/000gwhrp

...is not fun.

I don't want to remove them, because every once in a while I do play it and it's to just brainlessly nuke things because the map is slanted so heavily in my favor (I run slightly more nuanced builds on the other maps :P), but I agree with whoever said to cut the time spent on this maps in half.

Zalis
07-01-2008, 17:43
Not to mention the very, very, very long waits to get in a match in the first place :|. That's the main reason I don't play Ancestral very much, besides it not being much of a challenge. This:

http://pics.livejournal.com/fraught/pic/000gwhrp

...is not fun.

Since the underdog bonus implementation, I've actually had that occur less. Your time zone and hours of frequency might have more to do with that.

Amadei
08-01-2008, 09:16
Since the underdog bonus implementation, I've actually had that occur less. Your time zone and hours of frequency might have more to do with that.

Lucky you :P. The screenie is an older one, but stuff like that still happens to me fairly regularly whenever I play Ancestral.

Ate of DK
08-01-2008, 09:46
New maps for Alliance Battles ftw.

But when I look at how long they neededimplement new maps for Heroes Ascent then I think we have to way a long time. Maybe some maps where team play is more important than running solofarm builds.

shardfenix
09-01-2008, 21:13
Err, the shrines inside the base can be captured and recaptured, it's just a bit harder to do, except if you've got a good team going, in which case you can capture and hold those shrines inside their base for quite some time.
It takes tons more effort for an attacking faction to take them that it does for defense to take them. Imbalanced. Forgive me for saying the role play aspects of this pvp arena is stupid. I pvp to pvp, I don't pvp to pretend other humans are something they're not and I'm defending land from an invading army. There are places where role play aspects of the game should shine. This is not one of them.

Let's put role-playing in gvg. The defending team (the team with the lower rating) should get twice the amount of NPCs as the other team has. Also, they should start with the flag stand capped and with 10 morale. Oh, and their opponent's catapult is already loaded. Then gvg would be as balanced as AB!


I would like the duration of ancestral and kaanai to be severely reduced.
In addition to that removing the momentum bonus on those maps altogether.
But removing the maps entirely seems a bit unnessescary to me

Removed map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scarred_Earth), Removed map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sacred_Temples), Removed map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Broken_Tower), Removed map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ahmtur_Arena), Once removed map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Burial Mounds).

They've done it before to well-designed maps. Why can't they do it to terribly-designed maps?

Zalis
09-01-2008, 22:42
Let's put role-playing in gvg. The defending team (the team with the lower rating) should get twice the amount of NPCs as the other team has. Also, they should start with the flag stand capped and with 10 morale. Oh, and their opponent's catapult is already loaded. Then gvg would be as balanced as AB!

...stuff....

They've done it before to well-designed maps. Why can't they do it to terribly-designed maps?

I'm pretty sure that most people will argue that you should just play another form of pvp. Alliance Battles revolve around the gimmick of territory control. This gimmick plays on the yo-yoing of territory lines, meaning (ideally) the battlefield is somewhat fluid. Take away the extremes and it makes it an even shallower gimmick than it already is.

While I might agree that some new maps would be nice, the deep-shallow-neutral map idea works just fine IMO. (especially since the underdog bonus)

Wuzzman
10-01-2008, 03:59
The fact that shardfenix can even find pvp in alliance battles should tell us enough. I'm sure running around in circles faster then the other mob is high quality stuff.

shardfenix
10-01-2008, 08:02
The fact that shardfenix can even find pvp in alliance battles should tell us enough. I'm sure running around in circles faster then the other mob is high quality stuff.

Alliance Battles is great. When you actually do get a 4v4 in AB it can be more fun than TA. The fact remains that Kaanai and Ancestral aren't balanced properly. Whether you run circles around the map or whether you decide to mob vs mob, there are still those two well-protected shrines that tip the match unfairly one way.

Antillio
10-01-2008, 09:50
There is nothing wrong with new more '' balanced '' maps.

alltough what i like to see is that under certain conditions both side can summon a special unit ; Kurzick - Juggernauts. Luxxon - Turtle.

how it should be done or balanced i dunno yet but i would like it. give's it more a fort aspenwood feel wich i like alot but gets dull since it's the same map over and over.

Wuzzman
10-01-2008, 20:25
Alliance Battles is great. When you actually do get a 4v4 in AB it can be more fun than TA. The fact remains that Kaanai and Ancestral aren't balanced properly. Whether you run circles around the map or whether you decide to mob vs mob, there are still those two well-protected shrines that tip the match unfairly one way.

...shard...the problem is, the purpose of alliance battle isn't to win, it is to make the map change and score easy faction. Even if you want to win, your not winning because your pvp'ing. your winning cause your doing pve. Run around, kill some npc's avoid human players. It's persistent pve with some PK attached.

I'm assuming you play with guilds or friends, I did the same when AB came out. I've fought and held almost entire mobs with my friend/guild groups, only to lose anyway because the other 8 players are busy doing nothing. It's sad but true, AB never was a pvp arena to begin with anymore then RA is. Preferably you do both arenas for the laughs and lol's at the ****ty builds, you don't intend to win.

Kendel
12-01-2008, 02:51
Nobody plays AB to make the line move...

Because what you do in AB in your games makes **** all difference to the other god knows how many games are going on at the same time along with the momentum bonus.

People play it for faction because its less monotonous than FFF or for the fun of it.

Wuzzman
12-01-2008, 15:10
the map design provides a fail safe so even the noobest of players can eventually get the map moving to the other side. Which in turn keeps the players happy because they get to run around in circles on different maps. The faction amount is for the player base, allowing those that still farm faction to do so easily win or lose.

Arutima
12-01-2008, 23:08
what i would like to see is making fort aspenwood and jade quarry ab maps and add them into the map rotation

Zalis
12-01-2008, 23:52
what i would like to see is making fort aspenwood and jade quarry ab maps and add them into the map rotation

Make it so that Grenz/Etnaran randomly switch to Jade/Aspenwood instead. That would mix things up a bit.

kaelyn the dove
13-01-2008, 12:50
It's not the maps I dislike, but rather how long they seem to last. Just yesterday, it seemed that the map never once changed from ancestral, if it did, it was only for a couple of hours.

-Teh Shishi

Dogbert
13-02-2008, 17:48
There is nothing wrong with new more '' balanced '' maps.

alltough what i like to see is that under certain conditions both side can summon a special unit ; Kurzick - Juggernauts. Luxxon - Turtle.

how it should be done or balanced i dunno yet but i would like it. give's it more a fort aspenwood feel wich i like alot but gets dull since it's the same map over and over.

Juggernauts and Turtles can be found in Jade quarry and Aspenwood if i'm not mistaken.

Metafrank
14-02-2008, 00:28
I don't know about the random event if you win thing. I use to win Ancestral lands about 60-70% of the times as a Luxon, but maybe I'm just lucky enough to get the retards you talked about on the other team...
(I have never ever lost Kaanai Canyon in a year as Luxon though, so maybe that one is more unbalanced than its Kurzick counterpart)

P.S: No, I'm not trying to say how good I am, just telling my experience.
How great I am is quite obvious anyway:grin:

perverted hermit
19-02-2008, 03:41
...shard...the problem is, the purpose of alliance battle isn't to win, it is to make the map change and score easy faction. Even if you want to win, your not winning because your pvp'ing. your winning cause your doing pve. Run around, kill some npc's avoid human players. It's persistent pve with some PK attached.

I'm assuming you play with guilds or friends, I did the same when AB came out. I've fought and held almost entire mobs with my friend/guild groups, only to lose anyway because the other 8 players are busy doing nothing. It's sad but true, AB never was a pvp arena to begin with anymore then RA is. Preferably you do both arenas for the laughs and lol's at the ****ty builds, you don't intend to win.

you don't intend to win????


''avoid human players'' are you saying that we just cap shrines and never EVER run into any form of human opposition? you can't always avoid human players, not when 2 teams are contesting a shrine or 1 is trying to protect 1from another. i kno the word around the watercooler is ''cap, dnt fight!!!'', but there can be times where you have to fight, or we may aswell all run nuker eles if we're just PVEing

Antillio
24-03-2008, 16:09
Juggernauts and Turtles can be found in Jade quarry and Aspenwood if i'm not mistaken.

yes i was trying to say that i would like to see them in AB aswell to give it a more fort asp/ jade feeling.

Kendel
24-03-2008, 18:16
In short.

Stfu if you think Turtles and Juggers should be included in AB. Juggers are pathetically bad. Turtles are stupidly dangerous. The balance between the 2 is awful.

Ate of DK
24-03-2008, 18:48
The differences between those extreme maps and the normal maps is obvious.

It to balance the game and make sure that the border goes back and forth. Kurzicks who fight at the luxon home lands are supposed to lose more than they win...

QQ-ing that you can't win shows little understanding of how things work.

kaelyn the dove
24-03-2008, 21:04
I don't know about removed, but they should be tweaked a little to balance them out a bit. Doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but the way they are now, it pretty much forced the attacking team to take the heavily defended fortress shrines to even have a chance to win.

Alleji
24-03-2008, 22:32
SHAAAAARD. Let's play AB.

Offatwork
27-03-2008, 21:15
One team always starts with somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 extra NPCs more than the other team (NPCs which cannot be captured), which happen to be placed so that they defend 2 shrines and 6 extra NPCs that can be captured.

All it takes is one competent monk to be able to assault a base. After the base is taken, you can send in a ranger to clean up the npc's on top.


Turtles are stupidly dangerous.

No. People are stupid. They have a 3 second cast time. Interrupt it.

Trinity Fire Angel
29-03-2008, 03:18
no, that;s stupid. what;s more fun than a two man team solo ganking the enemies' base? 1 sin + 1 monk and you can take out the whole base if the opposition don;t notice you doing it.

seriously, one game i forgot all about capping and a mate and i decided that the Luxons had too many NPC's around the top. so we made it a goal to see if we could kill each one by roaming the top of the castle. we were both A/D and Mo/A so it made it easy to get up top. it was also fun to pick off players trying to get back out to the action thru the top teleporter... some people didn;t learn.

keep the extreme maps,,, some of the best battles ever have been on that bridge. nothing like when the whole AB battle forgets about capping and go 12v12 oin the bridge. woot

DefinatelyStoned
30-03-2008, 00:26
]
No. People are stupid. They have a 3 second cast time. Interrupt it.

If you didn't already know, you can only have 8 skills in GW. Are you suggesting that every person bring an interrupt, regardless of their prof / role?

Offatwork
30-03-2008, 17:59
If you didn't already know, you can only have 8 skills in GW. Are you suggesting that every person bring an interrupt, regardless of their prof / role?

No. I'm suggesting that, out of eight people, at least one of them should be competent enough to grab an interrupt of any kind.

In a normal build, two Warriors have one, a Mesmer might carry a physical interrupt, an Elementalist, and definitely a Ranger.