View Full Version : R/Ds the next 'big thing' in AB?
Are they the next big thing for ABs? They do seem to be appearing in increasing numbers, a match earlier had 7 of them on our side (Kurzicks) alone... (though to be fair, my team had 4 of them).
They lack healing (cept some variations) but they have very strong anti-attack and pretty good damage/spiking ability. Not the most long lasting of builds but it definatly racks up a body count and helps with capping.
I've been running one a lot lately. It's a good build because of a lot of utility dervish skills:
snare
cheap deep wound
enchant removal
Also, good blocking/running stances and some IAS.
The only problem is dps against single targets. It's about 55dps (counting dw) or so if I'm not mistaken, but no interrupts.
So, it takes a while to solo rez shrines.
Also, the healing is so so. So, can't solo ele shrines.
kaelyn the dove
07-04-2008, 18:39
They do seem to have infested ab. Had a great time farming them with my crip shot though.
David Holtzman
07-04-2008, 18:39
This can be tossed up with touchers as another build my enemies are welcome to run.
Divinity Archer
07-04-2008, 18:49
This can be tossed up with touchers as another build my enemies are welcome to run.
Well, I for one really hate them, I usually run an assassin there, so that is my main problem I guess :tongue:
Not much you can do about the blocking, flashing blades I can cope with, but this is just meh.
The really annoying part is that the build attracts a lot of noobs. I know when to stay away from a target when it's impossible to kill, but a lot of other people seem to have some sort of adrenaline rush when they are trying to melee something that can't be melee'd.
I've been running one a lot lately. It's a good build because of a lot of utility dervish skills:
snare
cheap deep wound
enchant removal
Also, good blocking/running stances and some IAS.
The only problem is dps against single targets. It's about 55dps (counting dw) or so if I'm not mistaken, but no interrupts.
So, it takes a while to solo rez shrines.
Also, the healing is so so. So, can't solo ele shrines.
By any chance is your PvP char Oles Bolt? If so you joined my R/D team earlier.
Sure they are easy to kill if you have a proper organised team and/or lots of melee hate... but what isn't? They really can't be compared to the toucher. For a start the R/D can actually kill targets in a short time. Cripshots are frigging annoying though, luckily i've only fought 1 so far in about 20 ABs.
I'd agree... plenty of melee seem to enjoy going 1v1 with a target that can keep up a blocking stance the majority of the time... it does look very stupid.
By any chance is your PvP char Oles Bolt? If so you joined my R/D team earlier.
Sure they are easy to kill if you have a proper organised team and/or lots of melee hate... but what isn't? They really can't be compared to the toucher. For a start the R/D can actually kill targets in a short time. Cripshots are frigging annoying though, luckily i've only fought 1 so far in about 20 ABs.
I'd agree... plenty of melee seem to enjoy going 1v1 with a target that can keep up a blocking stance the majority of the time... it does look very stupid.
I was just in a 4 R/D group. I think it was on Grenz.
I didn't recognize your name though.
kaelyn the dove
07-04-2008, 20:22
This can be tossed up with touchers as another build my enemies are welcome to run.
I wish it was only my enemies. Saw 8 of them on one kurz team, and 6 of them on my side.
Just sick of seeing so many of them in HA, and now they're polluting ab.
I was just in a 4 R/D group. I think it was on Grenz.
I didn't recognize your name though.
PvP slot is flizzle wiggit. Random words i came up with after i got sick of thinking 1 up.
David Holtzman
07-04-2008, 22:07
You can always kill them around escape. It takes a little while on a BA, but it's certainly doable and easily so. My fights today with the R/Ds went something like this: I wait for them to use escape, start counting down. Then I pin them and start the degen going. They have no snares so I can afford to run them around forever, and that's what I do.
You can always kill them around escape. It takes a little while on a BA, but it's certainly doable and easily so. My fights today with the R/Ds went something like this: I wait for them to use escape, start counting down. Then I pin them and start the degen going. They have no snares so I can afford to run them around forever, and that's what I do.
Crippling Victory is the snare I use.
Here's my build:
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Crippling Victory
Pious Assault
Escape
LR
Troll
Rending Touch
David Holtzman
07-04-2008, 23:30
Crippling Victory is a non-issue. I start at ranged and you don't, meaning it is quite unlikely you will ever have more health than me. Worst case scenario I just MTouch it off. It's a good noobstomp build (but then, what isn't?) but it's not a serious skirmish character like other sorts of ranger.
You can always kill them around escape. It takes a little while on a BA, but it's certainly doable and easily so. My fights today with the R/Ds went something like this: I wait for them to use escape, start counting down. Then I pin them and start the degen going. They have no snares so I can afford to run them around forever, and that's what I do.
Well obviously, but this is AB we're talking about. I did fight a BA Ranger in a 1v1 (well sorta). But it was very hit n miss, with Natural Stride and Mending Touch there was very little i could do to keep him still. Lets be honest, to both parties here it would be foolish to waste your time on the other. BA having to wait till block is down, R/D having to deal with condition removal and 50% block stance.
Proper, well organised guild teams with monk support are likely to beat you 4v4. But in the many, many matches i played earlier with 4 R/Ds, i never came across a single 1 of them. I'm not saying we didn't occasionally get beaten by 4man teams, but they were mostly very inconsistant at it. When it came to picking off straglers (or in most cases it ended up with slaughtering opponents outside their base in both Grenz and Eternan), the R/D was very powerful.
Touchers are really just a noob filter... R/D is that and more imo. The noobs don't stand a chance (cept the Riposte ones... ><), but it can take out decent players (by normal AB standards) quite easily too.
Victorious Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Crippling Victory
Pious Assault
Escape
LR
Apply Poison
Antidote Signet
I've been using that. Apply is really just a cover condition, losing Cripple/DW is a big blow to the build, so Apply keeps the monks Dismissing the wrong thing. Tempted to use Rending Touch instead of antidote, but i've come across too many people using blinds/poisons/diseases to feel i could drop it.
It's boring to play, a proper ranger can be so much more :huh:
It sucks to face them as anti caster when ur in an unorganized team.
David Holtzman
08-04-2008, 09:35
Kendel you need troll, not antidote.
Meh, i should probably try it with higher WS, using a minor exp and vitae's at the moment for max health. It'd be a big help between fights and everything, especially when up against degen nec/mes... but Vic Sweep can be made to be quite effective in AB. Half of the deaths a Unguent would merely extend your life, rather than prevent your death. Besides, i keep running into people with blind.
Divinity Archer
08-04-2008, 13:59
The biggest problem is that are very resilient vs melee and elemental damage, that doesn't leave a lot of options open besides hexes and conditions if that's possible, and not every build has those options.
You can kill them with a team, but when you face them by yourself it's best to leave them alone. (and they will call you a noob runner because of that :tongue:)
It's a build for kiddies who get a thrill out of 1 vs 1 in AB.
You can kill them with a team, but when you face them by yourself it's best to leave them alone. (and they will call you a noob runner because of that :tongue:)
Technically any that do that are noobs themselves because they didn't bring a snare when they clearly have 1 available :p
David Holtzman
08-04-2008, 17:46
With a regen skill and escape there's no reason you should ever die.
kaelyn the dove
08-04-2008, 19:29
It's boring to play, a proper ranger can be so much more :huh:
It sucks to face them as anti caster when ur in an unorganized team.
It sucks facing any meele when you're set as anti-caster. I especially loathe good warriors, who often find the person casting migraine on their monk to be their primary target. I've found distortion and dash help a bit in those situations. Running away is best, but some are persitent and will keep chasing, so distortion is what I use during the dash downtime (I recommend you keep running even with distortion on).
As for r/ds, more of them should carry trolls, which would prevent me from killing them, albeit slowly. Antidote will not save you from conjure nightmare.
Also, as I've mentioned before, playing crip shot can be so fun against most everything, but especially against the numerous r/ds running around. Nothing like keeping a whole group of them crippled. It's especially fun when defending one of the non-bridge shrines at ancestral/kaanai, since the altitude gives the crip shot a huge advantage against incoming meele foes.
As for r/ds, more of them should carry trolls, which would prevent me from killing them, albeit slowly. Antidote will not save you from conjure nightmare.
No but a monk will.
Unguent isn't that strong without lowering Expertise below 14 or running a Sup/Major. Escape has downtime and some Sins bring unblockable combo's. And sometimes groups of casters decide they want you dead and you no chance.
kongkingx
09-04-2008, 02:05
Riposte Warrior owns R/D
kaelyn the dove
09-04-2008, 15:21
If pugging, it is not a good idea to depend on the monk to provide the healing. In general, I think that unless you're with a guild group or f-list, then you really should have some form of self heal on your build.
If you are with f-list or guild, then the r/d is a wasted party member, since it is a sub-par skirmish bar whose job can be carried out much more efficiently by another character (think shock axe, mel derv, hammer warrior).
Riposte Warrior owns R/D
No it doesn't. Only a complete moron would attack a riposte warrior when using melee.
kongkingx
09-04-2008, 19:50
No it doesn't. Only a complete moron would attack a riposte warrior when using melee.
So while the R/D is doing nothing, the riposte warrior will just hit him with sever artery and gash real hard (+final thrust when there are no sigs equipped or sun and moon slash so GG escape).
Or the riposte warrior can go adjacent the R/D's target and the R/D will just feel the 100+ dmg from Riposte and Deadly Riposte coz of his scythe.
R/D = autolose.
kaelyn the dove
09-04-2008, 20:53
R/D = autolose.
QFT
12 chars
Offatwork
10-04-2008, 04:19
Riposte Warrior owns R/D
Haha. I see what you did there. Nice. I totally agree.
Akirai Annuvil
10-04-2008, 17:01
Haha. I see what you did there. Nice. I totally agree.
I wouldn't be surprised if he seriously thinks riposte warrior is a good build >.>;;
If pugging, it is not a good idea to depend on the monk to provide the healing. In general, I think that unless you're with a guild group or f-list, then you really should have some form of self heal on your build.
If you are with f-list or guild, then the r/d is a wasted party member, since it is a sub-par skirmish bar whose job can be carried out much more efficiently by another character (think shock axe, mel derv, hammer warrior).
Unfortunately, none of those staple melee builds are very good in unorganized AB play.
Even if you manage to assemble a good balanced group, there will be times when separation from the group is either forced or required. Without monk support, a purely offensive melee char then becomes food to other more defensive builds with lots of utility.
Such as R/D...
You can trust me on this too, because I've played lots of AB with all those staple builds. Lots and lots of AB.
Divinity Archer
10-04-2008, 18:55
Seems there is an increased number of A/D's too...
So while the R/D is doing nothing, the riposte warrior will just hit him with sever artery and gash real hard (+final thrust when there are no sigs equipped or sun and moon slash so GG escape).
Right... so many flaws there. Why the hell would the R/D be doing nothing and letting the War hit him? How does the War get all this adrenaline to use Sever/Gash/Sun/Final? How does he avoid all the blocking stances? How does he even catch the R/D who has a 33% speed boost 66% of the time?
Or the riposte warrior can go adjacent the R/D's target and the R/D will just feel the 100+ dmg from Riposte and Deadly Riposte coz of his scythe.
They can yes... but the thing is... people who are stupid enough to play a Riposte warrior in AB don't normally have the common sense to move in front of the Scythe.
R/D = autolose.
Lol. Riposte Warrior = autolose. I truly hope your not been serious.
I've seen so many Sins in AB starting to run Critical Defences... most of them can't even use it properly. But i've not seen that many A/Ds.
kaelyn the dove
10-04-2008, 20:40
Unfortunately, none of those staple melee builds are very good in unorganized AB play.
Even if you manage to assemble a good balanced group, there will be times when separation from the group is either forced or required. Without monk support, a purely offensive melee char then becomes food to other more defensive builds with lots of utility.
Such as R/D...
You can trust me on this too, because I've played lots of AB with all those staple builds. Lots and lots of AB.
First paragraph I was giving my input on whether or not trolls should be included in the bar. I generally think that if pugging, most bars should have some form of self heal. Then again, when pugging, I'll either run ba/crip shot ranger, fire ele or monk.
In the second paragraph, I noted that in cases where one is with a guild group/friend's list group, then the staple meele bars are much better/effective at dishing out damage and skirmishing. That is why I think that an r/d would be a wasted party slot.
First paragraph I was giving my input on whether or not trolls should be included in the bar. I generally think that if pugging, most bars should have some form of self heal. Then again, when pugging, I'll either run ba/crip shot ranger, fire ele or monk.
In the second paragraph, I noted that in cases where one is with a guild group/friend's list group, then the staple meele bars are much better/effective at dishing out damage and skirmishing. That is why I think that an r/d would be a wasted party slot.
I didn't argue about your first paragraph. I guess I should have deleted it from the quote.
The second paragraph, I actually read (surprise). And I gave you a counterargument.
I guess you didn't read it, so you just repeated your own words.
No, your all offense builds are not better at skirmishing in AB.
I suppose it might not have sinked in, when I generalized it like that, so I'll give an example.
On a deep enemy map, your perfect guild group of rank5 champions and rank 12 heroes, and rank 8 glads runs into another perfect guild group + npc ranger + npc warrior (what are the chances of that?) And gets partially wiped.
You, as a shock axe warrior, rez apart from your group. At this point you become useless for the next 2-3 minutes.
You can't fight more than 1 enemy at a time. You can't solo cap a shrine. You can't even run past an enemy mob w/o getting Pinned Down and powned.
The R/D build, on the other hand, can do all of the above. Sure, he has 10 less dps and no interrupts. But he has other things, which are more suitable to AB.
The point is, in AB, you can't predict what is going to happen. You don't know what kind of an imbalanced skirmish you may need to fight in or run away from.
You may have to engage an entire enemy cap group by yourself with only shrine npcs on your side. Fight just long enough to slow them down and run away at the last moment.
Such scenarios happen quite often and can change the momentum of a match.
kaelyn the dove
11-04-2008, 00:12
“On a deep enemy map, your perfect guild group of rank5 champions and rank 12 heroes, and rank 8 glads runs into another perfect guild group + npc ranger + npc warrior (what are the chances of that?) And gets partially wiped.”
Pretty sure the group with the numerical disadvantage, recognizing who the defending team is, would avoid combat, unless it was obvious to them they could survive the encounter (the defending team is meele heavy and you're stacked with anti-meele or another similar condition). In other words, they would run and cap another unoccupied shrine and keep capping in the other direction, or set up a defense that would grant them numerical parity/advantage.
“You, as a shock axe warrior, rez apart from your group. At this point you become useless for the next 2-3 minutes. You can't fight more than 1 enemy at a time. You can't solo cap a shrine. You can't even run past an enemy mob w/o getting Pinned Down and powned. “
Which is why the mission map is such a great thing. Plus, it being a coordinated group, which is what we’re talking about here, they would know where to run towards. Also, any warrior worth his salt will know how to avoid roaming mobs. The only commonly used snare the r/d can avoid that a warrior can’t is pin down. But crip shot ,imagined burden, sin hexes, water snares, will pwn the lone r/d just as nicely as it will the warrior. As for pin down, that’s what the wasd is for.
Besides, a good warrior will be able to solo cap near every shrine, except for the elementalist one, which, by the way, neither can the r/d.
“The point is, in AB, you can't predict what is going to happen. You don't know what kind of an imbalanced skirmish you may need to fight in or run away from. “
Yes you can, by paying attention to the screen, the mission map, and the mini map, you can easily avoid imbalanced skirmishes, or any other situation that places you at a disadvantage. Communication and battlefield awareness are what’s important here.
“You may have to engage an entire enemy cap group by yourself with only shrine npcs on your side. Fight just long enough to slow them down and run away at the last moment.
Such scenarios happen quite often and can change the momentum of a match.”
Not on melee, on melee you get your butt back to your group. All a cap group will do is ignore your damage. If the cap group is like anything we run, they you’d be crippled and blind while we kill the npcs. That said, the only professions I ever try to hold shrines with are ba/crip shot ranger when I split from my team, since I know the other three can cap on their own. If pugging, and the pug is terrible, then it’s not a bad idea to hold a shrine if you’re a monk/rit (assuming your teammates are a bunch of suicidal rambos who rush into a mob).
No offense, but it seems like you are trying to argue with somewhat, by now, trivial points... as if you knew what you were talking about.
“On a deep enemy map, your perfect guild group of rank5 champions and rank 12 heroes, and rank 8 glads runs into another perfect guild group + npc ranger + npc warrior (what are the chances of that?) And gets partially wiped.”
Pretty sure the group with the numerical disadvantage, recognizing who the defending team is, would avoid combat, unless it was obvious to them they could survive the encounter (the defending team is meele heavy and you're stacked with anti-meele or another similar condition). In other words, they would run and cap another unoccupied shrine and keep capping in the other direction, or set up a defense that would grant them numerical parity/advantage.
Are you saying that any player in an organized guild guild: 1) will never get killed, 2) will never spawn without his group, or 3) will always rejoin his group within second and will never be trapped by enemy at his spawn point?
“You, as a shock axe warrior, rez apart from your group. At this point you become useless for the next 2-3 minutes. You can't fight more than 1 enemy at a time. You can't solo cap a shrine. You can't even run past an enemy mob w/o getting Pinned Down and powned. “
Which is why the mission map is such a great thing. Plus, it being a coordinated group, which is what we’re talking about here, they would know where to run towards. Also, any warrior worth his salt will know how to avoid roaming mobs. The only commonly used snare the r/d can avoid that a warrior can’t is pin down. But crip shot ,imagined burden, sin hexes, water snares, will pwn the lone r/d just as nicely as it will the warrior. As for pin down, that’s what the wasd is for.
A snared R/D has a much higher chance to get away alive than a snared warrior. For obvious reasons.
Besides, a good warrior will be able to solo cap near every shrine, except for the elementalist one, which, by the way, neither can the r/d.
Not true.
Deep enemy: Mesmer/Necro/Rit shrines.
Shallow enemy: 3 Necro shrine.
Besides, if there's a defender or two, a warrior will have much harder time soloing a shrine than an R/D.
“The point is, in AB, you can't predict what is going to happen. You don't know what kind of an imbalanced skirmish you may need to fight in or run away from. “
Yes you can, by paying attention to the screen, the mission map, and the mini map, you can easily avoid imbalanced skirmishes, or any other situation that places you at a disadvantage. Communication and battlefield awareness are what’s important here.
That's exactly the point. A warrior will mostly have to run run run. While an R/D could make key plays... (see below)
“You may have to engage an entire enemy cap group by yourself with only shrine npcs on your side. Fight just long enough to slow them down and run away at the last moment.
Such scenarios happen quite often and can change the momentum of a match.”
Not on melee, on melee you get your butt back to your group. All a cap group will do is ignore your damage. If the cap group is like anything we run, they you’d be crippled and blind while we kill the npcs. That said, the only professions I ever try to hold shrines with are ba/crip shot ranger when I split from my team, since I know the other three can cap on their own. If pugging, and the pug is terrible, then it’s not a bad idea to hold a shrine if you’re a monk/rit (assuming your teammates are a bunch of suicidal rambos who rush into a mob).
An example that happened just today.
I happened to be a solo defender of a rez shrine on a deep enemy map (Kaanai). I was up against a group of 2 dagger sins, a fire ele, and a dom mesmer. The first thing I did was kill the ele. He got off an MS, but no other nukes. I had to do that through Empathy and other mesmer hate + 2 sins getting blocked, but because I pretrolled and hit a couple of lucky crit hits, I came through with half the health (read: not dead).
Later, I was able to kill one of the sins who ate a Lighting Orb or two. I had to run away now because I was really low on health. I did stay in range of the shrine until 2 other allies came along and helped kill the rest of the enemies.
We recaptured the shrine.
And this may have been a turning point in the match, since the other rez shrine was capped by another enemy group at the same time (the other shrine was soon recaptured though). By solo defending a rez shrine and actually making some kills, I helped save one of the two rez shrines. On Kaanai, losing both usually means a huge shift in momentum in favor of the enemy.
A warrior with your standard GvG-like build would not have been able to accomplish that.
At most, the warrior could interrupt MS and *maybe* run away. The shrine would still get nuked and lost. The other enemy cap group, would respawn here.
And since we are on a topic of finer points of AB tactics, before you post another quote stack, lets end this argument the way our celebrity GvG friends like to.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4404/factionif8.jpg
If you can top this, I'll shut up.
kaelyn the dove
11-04-2008, 07:16
Yay, epeen fight between two people who are, for all intents and purposes, scrubs. Funny, as if there is one pvp title that means almost nothing, it is the ab one.
I will concede that when it comes to low skill/mediocre players, the r/d bar is more likely a better option than staple warrior bars for ab. That is because the skill cap on an r/d is low, and a greatly skilled player will not perform much better than a mediocre one using that bar. In the hands of skilled players, the staple warrior bars are vastly superior, whether the arena is gvg, ha, ta or ab.
Your anecdotes are cute, but they are mere examples of noobstomping. An N/D MM could have also stomped those noobs, yet the MM bar is not good for ab (see the epic thread by Akirai on the necro forum about that).
Here are my own "qualifications," though, as I've mentioned, the faction rank means jack:
My first account (which got me 550 bucks after I quit GW the first time :)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kimfromhouston/AB/kae2006.jpg
Second account (also sold :)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kimfromhouston/AB/kae20062.jpg
My current account (which I've been playing for about a year now):
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kimfromhouston/AB/kae2008.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kimfromhouston/AB/kae20082.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb257/kimfromhouston/AB/kae20081.jpg
Finally, /rank (x2)--jk
You can't /rank me, I'm r6 :)
I will give you that playing something like shock axe, conjure cripslash or dev hammer is a lot of fun.
Just not very efficient in AB, IMHO.
And multiples of R/Ds do have a very nice shock factor, on top of a alot of speed boost. Speed boost and shock damage can be the difference between capping the Res shrine and losing it on Eternan/Grenz at the very start. Almost every match i've been in on Eternan (note Kurzick) that has started off with capping that res shrine has resulted in a win. The advantage you gain by doing so is huge. They may not have the same dps as a Shock Axe but they are definatly more mobile and generally have better survivability away from the group. A big help when it comes to rushing off to stop 1 or 2 people from capping a shrine.
Reality Impaired
11-04-2008, 08:39
I mainly play monk in AB. I've seend a few R/D's recently. They aren't nice, much like very good sins, but I can generally deal with them. I can deal with 95% of warriors too, they are generally just intent on having a good old scrap. A good W/E shock/axe will cause me a lot of trouble.
I don't see any reason to compare epeen's or even the R/D build to any other form of PvP. (we can argue about AB being PvE/P in another thread).
From what I have seen R/D's are a good build, not the 'omgz uber leet' that some people may say, but they are better than the builds taken by the majority of W or R or D into AB. I suspect we will see more of them over the next few months, although there seemed to be a pleathora of R/P Spear Beastmasters last night.
Rea
kongkingx
11-04-2008, 14:23
Right... so many flaws there. Why the hell would the R/D be doing nothing and letting the War hit him? How does the War get all this adrenaline to use Sever/Gash/Sun/Final?
Auspicious Parry
They can yes... but the thing is... people who are stupid enough to play a Riposte warrior in AB don't normally have the common sense to move in front of the Scythe.
That's why im here to educate.
Lol. Riposte Warrior = autolose. I truly hope your not been serious.
no. R/D = autolose.
Jono Mozza
11-04-2008, 18:55
Riposte Warrior owns R/D
Why focus your build around one type of enemy? you can only really cap war shrines as a riposte war, so essentially, your doing nothing for kost of the game. Why not just run a good build target switch to someone else if you see a R/D which is exactly what the R/D will do once he sees the ripsotes. No point hoping the other side will do what you want them to.
David Holtzman
11-04-2008, 21:28
Especially since my BA beats both your riposte warrior and your R/D.
Its obvious quite alot of things are capable of killing the R/D... the questions are, how many are run often in AB, how many are good outside of organised teams and just how long does it take those builds to kill the R/D when there are much weaker people around to focus on? And more importantly here... just how many of these builds that kill the R/D aren't more likely to kill other meleers?
BA CAN kill the R/D... but its a hell of alot more effective against every other type of melee build.
Cripshot is evil though :p
Akirai Annuvil
12-04-2008, 20:15
Riposte Warrior = autolose
R/D = autolose
autolose = autolose
Riposte Warrior = autolose = R/D
R/D = Riposte warrior
Ah, the ultimate in logical arguements :p
SurviverX
14-04-2008, 22:30
R/D is the next big thing everywhere.
I've seen 3 of these on a team in TA. Escape for speed boost, rending touch for ench-remove. Shreds through monk's defense.
I only ever play 1 in HA, because anywhere else, they are an easy kill.
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