Titans and Torment Rifts

[Karn the Betrayer]

since Komaile was shut on them AGAIN could they just utilise the torment rifts to invade Tyria?

[Sir Jack]

It would seem Torment Rifts aren't big enough for Titans to get through, otherwise, we'd be seeing them in Elona to take us out.
On the other hand, how the hell did Saevio Proelium get back in the RoT?

[Jair of the Forest]

Um. It's quite easy. Everything that dies goes somewhere, right? Most humans go to the UW, the greatest hero's go to the HoH, and the biggest criminals and the mis creations of the gods go to...the Realm of Torment.

So the Titans were placed into the Foundry of the Failed Creations by the Gods (after they realized they shouldn't have been created at all), they broke out through Komalie, we kill them and the gods send the spirits of the Titans back to the Realm of Torment. The only way to actually destroy something imo is to kill it while it is in the Mists.

[Karn the Betrayer]

yeah but knowing demons, they'll know a way into getting back...

so I'm taking that Saevio Proelium was the only titan in Elona? if his tomb is old it could mean that komalie was opned onced before either that or the titans have another way of getting through OR that Saevio Proelium was prginally a human designed by ANET but changed to be a titan boss, which confuses me since titans seemed to only appear in tyria

we should have GW worldwide titan quests XD

[Jair of the Forest]

yeah but knowing demons, they'll know a way into getting back...

Well..possibly. As long as the Mists exist, there will be demons.

You have to keep in mind that Kormir and her Forgotten are now boss in RoT, and that they are probably spending their time there now slaying demons.

[Gmr Leon]

So the Titans were placed into the Foundry of the Failed Creations by the Gods (after they realized they shouldn't have been created at all), they broke out through Komalie, we kill them and the gods send the spirits of the Titans back to the Realm of Torment.

The Gods didn't do a single thing in Prophecies, which means they didn't send the spirits of the Titans back to the Realm of Torment. We closed the Door of Komalie, we cleaned up the remaining Titans, and that was it. Remember that Titans are tortured souls, so when we kill them that's pretty much their end, they're recycled into the Mists.

Saevio Proelium was the only Titan in Elona, captured by the Order of Whispers, and then escaped with the weakening of reality due to Nightfall. It must be kept in mind that Titans did exist on Tyria at one time, but were later (mostly) banished to the Realm of Torment and into the Foundry of Failed Creations.

[Jair of the Forest]

The Gods didn't do a single thing in Prophecies, which means they didn't send the spirits of the Titans back to the Realm of Torment. We closed the Door of Komalie, we cleaned up the remaining Titans, and that was it.

There is no evidence for this. And it is nowhere mentioned that the Titans were tortured souls. They were created by the Gods (probably by Abbadon) and it was later on decided (probably by the other Gods after Abbadon's defeat) that it had been a mistake to create them. They are a failed creation, hence why they are in the Foundry.

After the Titans escaped through the door of Komalie, you'd expect the Foundry to be totally empty. Yet when we get there in the Realm of Torment it is still stuffed with Titans (and Margonites). Those Titans wouldn't have been there if the Gods wouldn't have send them back to the Foundry.

[Gmr Leon]

No evidence? Be uncertain, double check yourself, it's saved me many a time.


Inside the Foundry is the Door of Komalie...a passage to the realm of the living. Countless Titans wander these halls. They are sick, twisted creatures formed by tormented souls. The followers of Dhuum have gathered here under the command of The Fury, seeking to gain favor with Mallyx the Unyielding.


After the Titans escaped through the door of Komalie, you'd expect the Foundry to be totally empty. Yet when we get there in the Realm of Torment it is still stuffed with Titans (and Margonites). Those Titans wouldn't have been there if the Gods wouldn't have send them back to the Foundry.

The thing is, we don't have evidence suggesting that they were ever sent back there.

The only slight evidence that I have in this area is that souls in the Underworld were devoured by some of the monsters there, where do they go after this? While it's not certain, it may be that they are recycled into the Mists. With Titans being tortured souls, that makes it a possibility that this was the case with them.

However, until we get confirmation on what exactly does occur after a soul is destroyed, it's just left up to speculation. You may be right, I may be right, and we may both be wrong. There's no complete certainty in Tyrian afterlife.

[Jair of the Forest]

Originally Posted by Aurus Trevess, Gate of Anguish
Inside the Foundry is the Door of Komalie...a passage to the realm of the living. Countless Titans wander these halls. They are sick, twisted creatures formed by tormented souls. The followers of Dhuum have gathered here under the command of The Fury, seeking to gain favor with Mallyx the Unyielding.

Formed by tormented souls, not formed from them. Not sure what that means though, but it's certainly something different than being Souls themselves.


The thing is, we don't have evidence suggesting that they were ever sent back there.

Can you think of any other reason that the Titans would be there again? The Gods have send them there before, makes sense they'd do the same thing again.

EDIT: Apparently Tormented Souls formed them..that means the Gods didn't create them. That's quite new for me too. Wonder what else these Tormented Souls can do if they can create world-conquering armies.

[Gmr Leon]

Well, my point still stands, that we don't really have a clue what happens to souls if they're destroyed. Even if they are an accumulation of them. We don't even know what happens to a Titan's soul after it's destroyed, it could be sent back to the Realm of Torment or it could wander around. The former being more likely, no doubt.

You mentioned again..The thing is, if the Titans we defeated that were released when the Door of Komalie was opened were returned to the Realm of Torment, why do we never see them? I just checked on the wiki to see which bosses were in the Foundry of Failed Creations and in the Gate of Madness mission, none of them are the ones we faced. Unless you count the Armageddon Lords, of course.

It's not that hard to believe that in the years between Prophecies and Nightfall they created even more Titans. The interesting thing is that there were so few released at the end of Prophecies, it seems almost as though it happened too soon and they weren't prepared.

[Jair of the Forest]

It's not that hard to believe that in the years between Prophecies and Nightfall they created even more Titans. The interesting thing is that there were so few released at the end of Prophecies, it seems almost as though it happened too soon and they weren't prepared.

Few Titans? Are you sure you didn't forget the Titans from the Titan Quests? Those and the ones in Hell's Precipice together seem a pretty large force to me.

[Karn the Betrayer]

However, until we get confirmation on what exactly does occur after a soul is destroyed, it's just left up to speculation. You may be right, I may be right, and we may both be wrong. There's no complete certainty in Tyrian afterlife.

maybe defeated souls never go back into the mists, they are literally destroyed.. this makes me think of what the Quincys do in the anime bleach (they destroy the tormented sprits and thier soul goes 'kaboom')

[Gmr Leon]

Few Titans? Are you sure you didn't forget the Titans from the Titan Quests? Those and the ones in Hell's Precipice together seem a pretty large force to me.

Mayhaps, but in comparison to the amount that can be found in the Realm of Torment..:undecided:

[Karn the Betrayer]

even if the tyrian titans got sent back to the torment I only saw those 'pink' ones (like Saevio Proelium) in the torment

[Sir Jack]

even if the tyrian titans got sent back to the torment I only saw those 'pink' ones (like Saevio Proelium) in the torment

That's because Titans pick up the element of their surrounding, as was shown in the Titan Quests, which someone theorised about and was later proven ingame. In the Realm of Torment (technically a non-physical plain not composed of elements we know), that's, well, Torment, pain and suffering.

[Karn the Betrayer]

technicaly there are large portals remember the bit where you have to close down 3 portals before the bit where you have to 'kill' undead rurik

[Jair of the Forest]

technicaly there are large portals remember the bit where you have to close down 3 portals before the bit where you have to 'kill' undead rurik

But those are not portals to the Mists or from the Mists, those are portals that lead from one place in Tyria to another. I guess it takes less energy for someone to create such portals (since the Asura and Mursaat have them all over the place) than to create the portals from and to the Mists.

We know that Varesh (with help of magic artifacts) could create such portals, presumably the Gods, and Lord Odran.

[Gmr Leon]

Where do we ever see Varesh with magic artifacts? We only see her performing dark rituals at the Plaza of the Five Gods, the Sebelkeh Basilica, and the Mouth of Torment. It's said that these rituals helped to break Abaddon's bindings allowing him more freedom. Not to mention the weakening of reality, which seemed to make it very easy for Abaddon to pull Kormir into the Realm of Torment.

I'd say that it was simply those dark rituals that allowed her to "open" portals, but in fact she wasn't opening them at all. It was simply the Margonites opening them from the Realm of Torment. Not that there's any evidence to that other than Abaddon lending his support to Varesh, but..it seems likelier than more magic artifacts.

[Jair of the Forest]

General Kayeht got a magic rune from the Apogrypha right before we destroy it (check the cinematic after Jokanur Diggings Mission). I always thought that Varesh used that (being a sign of Abbadons presence in the real world) to weaken the gates of his prison and open Torment Rifts all over the place.

That's just speculation though. I just thought Varesh being just a mortal wouldn't be strong enough to create those portals all by herself.

[Gmr Leon]

The rune itself probably described how to perform the rituals. These rituals then would then allow her to open the portals or perhaps the blessings of Abaddon allowed her to do so. However, it would seem the ritual at the Plaza of the Five Gods allowed her to open these portals anywhere, if the rituals are what gave her the ability in the first place, that is.

[Jair of the Forest]

That doesn't really make sense. How could a rune, a small sign, describe an entire ritual? It actually containing powerful magic seems more plausible to me...

[Gmr Leon]

I'm not absolutely certain it was simply a rune, Kahyet got something from the Apocrypha. It could have been an artifact, like you're suggesting, or it could have been instructions to the rituals.

[Jair of the Forest]

Watch the cinematic and you'll see that she's holding what looks like a piece of parchment, with a blue'ish glowing sign on it.

[Larqh]

I always assumed the item taken from the Apogrypha would be used with a number of other items, possibly collected before we popped along in the story.

[Gmr Leon]

Watch the cinematic and you'll see that she's holding what looks like a piece of parchment, with a blue'ish glowing sign on it.

I knew that, and my response in this scenario was to be it represented more than that. Whatever the case, ritual, artifact, or blessing we may never know. Though it would seem that, after remembering the cutscene and Blacktide Den, it is that rune or glyph that helped to open portals. I say this due to looking back over the end portion of Blacktide Den and noticing the Grasps of Chaos that accompany Kahyet.

[Harjubal od Uo]

A theme that is often found in ancient literature is the idea that simply reading something as simple as a single rune can impart magical knowledge which can change one's relationship with the world around them, such as the western tradition of the power of the true name of God.

I suspect that this sort of mystical interpretation might be able to be applied to Kahyet and the Apocrypha. It doesn't particularly matter whether she took a rune fragment or copied it, or whether it was instructions for rituals or just a mystical power word that changed her perception of the universe. The important part is that it was powerful, hidden knowledge which she shared with Varesh and which changed them both somehow.

[Karn the Betrayer]

I oftern wanderd how joko got hold of an abaddon scroll too... and are those erm graven monoliths controleld by him too?

[Jair of the Forest]

Palawa Joko....?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but I've never heard of Palawa Joko opening Torment Rifts or having an "Abbadon Scroll". Could you please verify?

[Gmr Leon]

I think he's referring to the Rune of DOOM you have to use/get for one of Palawa's men. It's the quest that many people repeat out in the Ruins of Sahlahja to farm Lightbringer points.

[Karuro]

I doubt it's an "Abaddon Scroll", since it simply destroys the shrines.
If it was though, that'd be the same like having a giant red "Self-Destruct"-button in Abaddon's HQ.

[Karn the Betrayer]

no i was talking about his coffer in it was the Scriptures of Abaddon

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image:Scriptures_of_Abaddon.pnghttp://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image:Scriptures_of_Abaddon.png

sure looks like a scroll

[Jair of the Forest]

Don't those Scriptures of Abbadon turn out to be a guide to get to the "wish-giver"? Which makes this Gardener of Seborhin part of the Vabbian loyalty?

[Karuro]

Don't those Scriptures of Abbadon turn out to be a guide to get to the "wish-giver"? Which makes this Gardener of Seborhin part of the Vabbian loyalty?


"These "Scriptures of Abaddon" aren't scriptures at all. Thank the gods! I honestly haven't a clue as to what is written on this parchment. All I can surmise is that this ancient parchment is part of a greater whole, but it does me no good. Here, why don't you take it? Perhaps you will find some use for it."


"Let me see that. By the gods, my luck has finally come! Where did you find this? I have been searching for this ancient parchment for many years now. It is the missing piece of a puzzle that has remained unsolved for ages. With both halves, I can attain a powerful magic to satisfy my every whim!"

"As a token of thanks, we will seek out the power together. However, there are a few tasks we'll need to take care of first. Speak to me again when you are ready."

There we go.

[Harjubal od Uo]

I don't remember these quests at all. Is there a follow-up or is nothing else ever mentioned?

[Gmr Leon]

It's a quest chain, so there's a follow-up. It's rather interesting really..Considering it was something of Palawa's it seems to indicate he desired wishes. Why he'd leave it in the mines of all places is beyond me though.

[Karn the Betrayer]

if it had something to do with seborhin.wish giver then why 'abaddon scriptures?'

[Gmr Leon]

Because they were uncertain of the scroll's initial contents.

[Karn the Betrayer]

that proves 'don't judge a book by its cover'

[Troal]

It's a quest chain, so there's a follow-up. It's rather interesting really..Considering it was something of Palawa's it seems to indicate he desired wishes. Why he'd leave it in the mines of all places is beyond me though.

Perhaps Joko used a wish to become the powerful being he is, and then hid the parchments all around so no one could wish for power rivalling his, wish for his downfall, etc...

[Gmr Leon]

Possible. But it seems the safest place to bury it would be beneath the sulphur or keep it as close as possible to him.

[Harjubal od Uo]

Perhaps the scriptures or whatever they are couldn't be destroyed by normal means, thus could only be hidden. Turai Ossa or the original members of the Order of Whispers might have hidden them in the mines, perhaps even on Turai's way north to the Crystal Desert.

[Gmr Leon]

Turai, maybe, but the Order of Whispers would remember/record any document they hid. That being the case the Master of Whispers wouldn't need to check on the contents of the scroll.

[Jair of the Forest]

The Order of Whispers is a secret society led by the Master of Whispers. Members of our order have sworn an oath to protect the dark secrets held in these mines."

The Order of Whispers did keep record of these Coffers, so they were probably the ones who hid them after Palawa's defeat. Oh and maybe the Order of Whispers didn't know the content of the scroll either, they might have never opened it after they defeated him.

Also:

The Kournan troops have already discovered one of Palawa Joko's ancient coffers, which they believe houses the scriptures of Abaddon.

As you can read this was not the only coffer, so we know that there are more coffers of Joko spread around the Desolation. I wonder what those other coffers contain..and how Palawa Joko laid his hands on the most likely important scrolls and magical artifacts inside the coffers.

Maybe he found them after taking the Dynastic Cities in the Desolation. That eliminates the idea that he used the Wishgiver to make him a Lich though, because he obviously already controlled massive armies of undead before invading Vabbi.

[Karn the Betrayer]

question is the margs in the desolation ho wthey get there when there are no rifts nearby (supposing they all come out from the torment)

[Sir Jack]

question is the margs in the desolation ho wthey get there when there are no rifts nearby (supposing they all come out from the torment)

They didn't. The majority of the Margonites roaming around in Elona are transformed Kournans. They traveled to the Desolation alongside Varesh (confirmed in cinematic).
In fact, seeing as how Abby was locked away and Margonites can't reproduce, I'd say the ONLY Pre-Fall margonites we see outside the RoT are the Horde of Darkness (confirmed to have fought at that time).
Inside the RoT, the Pre-Fall Margonites would be the ones in the DoA, under the command of Lord Jadoth, given their superior strength most likely caused by their age.

[Karn the Betrayer]

They didn't. The majority of the Margonites roaming around in Elona are transformed Kournans. They traveled to the Desolation alongside Varesh (confirmed in cinematic).

remember Varesh did summon some

well that explains the four marg generals in dzagonur

[Sir Jack]

remember Varesh did summon some


When? All I remember is Varesh summoning demons in Gandara (specifically, The Hunger), and again in Ruins of Morah (hough I think there were rifts involved).
If you're talking about the Margonites that appeared in Fortress of Jahai during a cutscene, there's no explanation except they were there but cloaked. No Rifts were opened, no ritual was cast. They just poofed out of thin air. In all other circumstances, we have either of those involved when Margonits/Demons appear (not talking about quests/Missions where they appear/poof for the quests's sake of having "waves" or so).

[Konig Des Todes]

I would have to agree with Jack on this. The only time Varesh actually summoned something from the Realm of Torment was the demons in Gandara and the demons coming from the rifts starting to open in the Mouth of Torment.

In both instances, only Demons were summoned and at least one rift was used (I'll have to re-watch the Gandara cinematic to confirm if there was a rift there, I think so though).

So the Non-RoT Margonites were definantly "new Margonites" and the ones in the DoA and Horde of Darkness were the "old Margonites." The ones in non-DoA RoT areas could be either.

[Karn the Betrayer]

begs to think why the kournans with direct contact with margs don't look or begin to look like the margs

[Jair of the Forest]

Margonites are Demons..and this is what the NFManuscripts say about Demons:


Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.

As you can read Demons are created by the Mists, while we know that the Margonites are just corrupted humans, transformed followers of Abbadon.

May we actually consider Margonites to be Demons than, lore-wise? There are so many clues in game that the Margonites are Demons, but if they are not born from the Mists, can they actually be Demons at all?

Just throwing in the question...

[Konig Des Todes]

Well, Margonites can be viewed as demons, but only in the concept that Margonites are humans transformed into demons, just as it seems Titans are souls transformed into demons. That is the only way I can see that Margonites can be considered Demons.

As for why Kournans with direct contact with Margonites don't look like Margonites, I would have to say there are three reasons for that.

First, They don't all transform at the same rate, those that we see in Vabbi (that don't get killed at continue to follow Varesh) later become the Margonites in the Desolation.

Second, the Kournans (at least most of them) wear full-body armor, so we can't really see their skin to see the changes.

Lastly, ANet might have been lazy and not bothered to make 2 different skins for each profession of Kournans (or in this theory, three different skins :tongue:)

[Karn the Betrayer]

ANet might have been lazy and not bothered to make 2 different skins for each profession of Kournans (or in this theory, three different skins :tongue:)

lazy to do that yet they have the time to create new tonics everymonth and new masks for all the festivals :huh:

[Sir Jack]

Well, Margonites can be viewed as demons, but only in the concept that Margonites are humans transformed into demons, just as it seems Titans are souls transformed into demons. That is the only way I can see that Margonites can be considered Demons.

As for why Kournans with direct contact with Margonites don't look like Margonites, I would have to say there are three reasons for that.

First, They don't all transform at the same rate, those that we see in Vabbi (that don't get killed at continue to follow Varesh) later become the Margonites in the Desolation.

Second, the Kournans (at least most of them) wear full-body armor, so we can't really see their skin to see the changes.

Lastly, ANet might have been lazy and not bothered to make 2 different skins for each profession of Kournans (or in this theory, three different skins :tongue:)

Actually, I don't think direct contact with Margonites is enough to transform you. We're fine, aren't we? The Vabbian princes are fine. From what we can tell, all direct contact with Margonites does is damn your soul to the RoT. Which, in itself, is pretty bad already.
From what we gather in Kourna, large amounts of troops and civilians disappear. So it's likely they're taken off/kidnapped by troops highly loyal to Varesh and knowledgable about the Demons, like General Bayel. This is entirely possible to do without anyone knowing, even equally ranked generals such as Morghan. Once taken away and hidden, a ritual or blessing by Abbadon is bestowed upon them (similar to Jadoth), possibly after turning them to Abbadon's goal (mindtricks or torture), because if force worked, they could just round up everyone in a single sweep and turn them all into Margonites.
Looking at Varesh, it seems the Margonites transformation works pretty fast once initialised. We don't see any marks on her before Ruins, yet in the mission, she goes from extra eyes to full Margonite. As such, I don't think there's much of an "in between" stage.



lazy to do that yet they have the time to create new tonics everymonth and new masks for all the festivals :huh:

Apples and oranges.
Also, see above.

[Konig Des Todes]

lazy to do that yet they have the time to create new tonics everymonth and new masks for all the festivals :huh:That actually doesn't take much work because they are using already used skins and models, and even used emotes. All they do is create a new item and link that item to changing the user to whatever model is desired for 50 minutes.


Actually, I don't think direct contact with Margonites is enough to transform you. We're fine, aren't we? The Vabbian princes are fine. From what we can tell, all direct contact with Margonites does is damn your soul to the RoT. Which, in itself, is pretty bad already.
From what we gather in Kourna, large amounts of troops and civilians disappear. So it's likely they're taken off/kidnapped by troops highly loyal to Varesh and knowledgable about the Demons, like General Bayel. This is entirely possible to do without anyone knowing, even equally ranked generals such as Morghan. Once taken away and hidden, a ritual or blessing by Abbadon is bestowed upon them (similar to Jadoth), possibly after turning them to Abbadon's goal (mindtricks or torture), because if force worked, they could just round up everyone in a single sweep and turn them all into Margonites.
Looking at Varesh, it seems the Margonites transformation works pretty fast once initialised. We don't see any marks on her before Ruins, yet in the mission, she goes from extra eyes to full Margonite. As such, I don't think there's much of an "in between" stage.You got a point with the contact thing, and I forgot that villagers were also missing as well. As for the "in between" that was something I came up with to explain that, to give a lore based explanation that is.

But with Varesh not really having an in-between phase, it could be that it is because we killed her, and her soul became a margonite and came through one of the portals - that are along the walls - with the demons. That is what I would explain the margonites in the Realm of Torment to be, the souls of the Kournans and Margonites we killed in Elona, and not a whole new batch of Margonites, after all, if those Margonites were also fresh like the ones in Elona, how did they get there? Or better yet, WHY would they go there when everyone - that is evil - in the RoT are trying to get out.

[Skyy High]

lazy to do that yet they have the time to create new tonics everymonth and new masks for all the festivals :huh:
You're comparing fun little extras that people actually derive enjoyment from, to the most minor of minor details that no one save a handful of lore buffs would even ponder over. Perspective, please.

To the actual topic: Varesh most certainly did have an in-between phase. During one cutscene (I think after you've cleansed the Basilica, but definitely before you get to the Desolation), her hood is pulled away, and you can definitely see the pale shapes of 4 extra eyes forming on her forehead. Who knows what kind of timeline we're talking about in-game here, or how long that trek/chase lasts in game time. Definitely at least a few days, which, while fast, is not indicative of an instantaneous transformation.

[Sir Jack]

I've got some more proof that it requires a prior devotion to Abaddon before you can turn into a Margonite.

There are 2 Margonites we encounter who are not alligned with Abaddon, or rather have lost their faith and turned against him.



The Margonites are a dead race. We do not have children. We do not change from the old ways. My people are as stagnant as a fetid pond. My only consolation is the thought that soon there will be no Margonites left to plague the world.

We were wrong to devote ourselves to Abaddon.


That would imply that they had a choice prior to transformation.
It also implies that Margonites do have some form of choice or at least some reasoning after they transformed.

This could however be in different forms. One possibility is that the transformation and overflow with power turns the present devotion in a blind devotion similar to madness, in which case most Margonites would lose all reason. There are arguments against this, as it is shown that Margonites are still capable of conversation, although still greatly inspired by Abaddon.
Another possibility is that it is similar to the Menos caste system of Bleach. For those unfamiliar, the way that works is that the majority of the Menos are basically simple footsoldiers without any specific thoughts. At times though, a Menos will appear that has a mind and personality of it's own, which will become a higher class. We have some similarity here, as the Margonites are clearly divided into different fractions mostly led by generals, but other leaders as well. There's no real proof that the same caste is kept after transformation, as Jadoth was the original leader of the Margonites but is outclassed by Mallyx, who then becomes the leader. Different from the Menos' caste system is that Menos' ranking happens randomly, while the Margonites' seems more like you'd retain your sanity if your devotion to Abbadon is greater prior to the transformation.
The last possibility I could come up with is that every Margonite still holds his/her own thoughts and reason. However, if they dwindle from the path of Abaddon, they're killed fast. The problem is that if they still have reason, odds are we'd see more "converted" Margonites. Especially after The Apostate released some of his papers.

[Gmr Leon]

I think that all Margonites are capable of speech and normal human actions. It's simply their devotion that blinds them to facts provided from others, such as the Apostate, or the sheer madness brought on from centuries of residing in the Realm of Torment. We see various situations in which they speak, it's simply that their in the form of threats.

Also, nowhere is it mentioned that Jadoth is a leader early on, but in the City of Torc'qua it is clear he has become one. He's simply one of the first Margonites to be blessed with magic.

..And I basically restated some of the things Jack said with the addition of madness as a possibility. If anything, I find the last possibility the most likely, but with devotion and madness being the reasons there aren't as many converted.

However, I think, and this is going on a weak branch, that the quests were to hint at the possibility of Margonite survivors. Some of which are on the side of humans or are purified by Kormir and remain as her forces.

[Sir Jack]

However, I think, and this is going on a weak branch, that the quests were to hint at the possibility of Margonite survivors. Some of which are on the side of humans or are purified by Kormir and remain as her forces.

Purified or not, they'd still be a damned race and can't be compared to the Eternals or Reapers. I mean, let's look at them. They're immortal agewise, which is a plus. It's all downhill from there. They require a living human to be made, which means Gods are involving humans directly in the human world. They can't breed, so no little Margonite offspring to get any more.
Basically, they'd be a copy of the Forgotten, except most likely even fewer numbers (it's also unknown if Forgotten can breed or not).

Purifying Titans, that's where a better posibility of Forces lies. Titans are formed of souls, so only after a human has expired, they can be "made". They absorb the dominant element of the area, so if Kormir's done with turning the Realm of Torment into...I dunno, the Realm of Rainbows (?)...Realm of Knowledge, we'd get knowledgable Titans, that could be used in a variety of locations as long as it doesn't include Torment, Pain, Misery, or any of those elements.

[Gmr Leon]

The only issue with turning the Titans into Kormir's forces lies in the fact that Titans are made up of tortured souls. We don't know of any other form of creating Titans and that being the case, they might just wither away after Kormir gains control over her realm. I think the Forgotten might become Kormir's dominant forces until she finds something else, another race perhaps, or creates something to protect her realm.

I just hope to see Margonites not completely wiped off the face of Tyria, even if there are only two left. The Lost and the Apostate, I would be satisfied.

[Karn the Betrayer]

We don't see any marks on her before Ruins

youre forgetting the cutscene beofre/after seklebeh (bad spelling) where she is walking and one of the margs talks to her

[Konig Des Todes]

youre forgetting the cutscene beofre/after seklebeh (bad spelling) where she is walking and one of the margs talks to her
How is a margonite talking to Varesh a mark? Also, Jack stated that there are no marks other than the eyes.

[Jair of the Forest]

How is a margonite talking to Varesh a mark? Also, Jack stated that there are no marks other than the eyes.

I actually thought her skin and eyes changed color to, the skin to purple and the eyes red'ish. Not sure 'bout that.

[Konig Des Todes]

How it seems to me, the skin turns into a darker color (whatever color that is, can't really tell myself), and falls off at some parts, revealing the innards changed into the energy-like look. The eyes didn't quite look red to me, but the eyes didn't seem normal. I'll have to go find some Margonite to look at that isn't the Apostate (as his eyes are energy, just like all other monk Margonites).

My guess on how the "stage" process looks would be:

1. Starting Ceremony/Blessing/Commitment to Abaddon.
2. Extra Eyes
3. Darker Skin
4. Skin Falling Off
5. Finished

Of course, if a "would-be" Margonite dies in the process, like Varesh did, when they end up in the Realm of Torment, they would be full Margonite (or more of one). Seeing how Varesh still had a fleshy face (which looked just waaaay creepy to me) she might have just been in the middle of stage 4 of my chart above, in other words, killing her moved her from skin darkening to 99% Margonite.

I would argue that the Margonites we fight in the Realm of Torment are the Kournans and Margonites we kill in Kourna, Vabbi, and the Desolation. Which makes sense to me, as their souls have to go somewhere, and we don't see any Kournans in the Realm of Torment, so what else could happen to them?

[Jair of the Forest]

Which makes sense to me, as their souls have to go somewhere, and we don't see any Kournans in the Realm of Torment, so what else could happen to them?

They go to the Underworld? I mean, they are just soldiers obeying orders. But still, if I were Grenth I'd direct them to the RoT too I guess..

[Konig Des Todes]

Jair, please note, that the Realm of Torment is part of the underworld. And, as the Kournan Troops were "touched by Abaddon" they would be put into the Realm of Torment as does everyone else who has been touched by Abaddon before his fall (and that would include our characters, but as Abaddon was killed, they don't go there).

Source for the Realm of Torment being part of the Underworld:


"While I was trapped by the Terrorwebs, many souls which should not have been consigned to such a fate were cast down into the pit. Most have been lost forever, but a few remain who have not yet been driven to madness. I shall make it possible for them to escape the realm of torment. Do not allow these Released Spirits to be destroyed."

[Jair of the Forest]

Jair, please note, that the Realm of Torment is part of the underworld.

Source for the Realm of Torment being part of the Underworld:

I fail to see how that should proof that the RoT is part of the UW. The RoT is some kind of hell, while the UW is more of a neutral region, where most people go to after they die.

Remember the river of souls, that streams through the RoT? That is a stream of souls that is supposed to go to the UW, that river streams from the RoT to the UW. And probably right before the river enters UW, every single soul out of it must come before the Throne of Grenth and shall be judged, whether they must stay in the RoT or may pass to the UW (and later even further, to the HoH).

It's a very well known concept of the afterlife that for example the Catholic Church in Medieval times and even now believes.
First one must go through a form of hell, to wash away their sin, before they can enter heaven.

[Gmr Leon]

You mean purgatory? :tongue: Look at the quote provided, that's solid proof. The River of Souls, at least to me, is still a foggy point of the Tyrian afterlife.

[Konig Des Todes]

The Underworld (that we can go to) does seem to be a purgatory-like place. But also note, that everywhere of the afterlife was considered "The Underworld" according to the Prophecies Manual (ftp://ftp.guildwars.com/downloads/gwp-manual.pdf) (page 70-72). So, by that standard, everything in the Rift is a part of the Underworld. (although I would rather think the "afterlife" as a whole is called the Rift, and a part of that is the Underworld, but that is still fairly up to speculation it seems).

As for the River of Souls, one would think that it goes from the underworld to the Realm of Torment, not the other way around like you said. I say this because everything that goes into the realm of torment becomes "corrupted" or "maddened" and if the river started, or passed through, the Realm of Torment before getting to Grenth, all the souls would be corrupted.

I find this funny, this thread went from Titans, to Margonites, and now the Rift.

[Karn the Betrayer]

I find if the underworld is the afterlife where souls can go to rest then how are they supposed to rest when theres demons greeting the newly dead? ok i understand grenth has some problems with dhuum mesing up his place

[Gmr Leon]

The Underworld is not a part of the Rift. The Rift is the center of the Mists and the Hall of Heroes resides within the Rift. The Rift connects to absolutely everything. That does not mean, however, that the Underworld is a part of the Rift, it simply means that it can accessed from the Rift.

[Sounds Risky]

When? All I remember is Varesh summoning demons in Gandara (specifically, The Hunger), and again in Ruins of Morah (hough I think there were rifts involved).
If you're talking about the Margonites that appeared in Fortress of Jahai during a cutscene, there's no explanation except they were there but cloaked. No Rifts were opened, no ritual was cast. They just poofed out of thin air. In all other circumstances, we have either of those involved when Margonits/Demons appear (not talking about quests/Missions where they appear/poof for the quests's sake of having "waves" or so).

They may have been cloaked in some way but the Margonites were brought in to supplement Kourna's thinnly spread forces as Morgahn points out in the same cinematic. Where do people get the idea that members of the Kournan military were being transformed into Margonites, especially before Varesh herself did?

[Konig Des Todes]

We get that idea because Kourna is a military based country, and is naturally able to cover all of their country. The forces are becoming thin because we are killing them off and they are now moving them into Vabbi.

Not to mention that the Kournan villagers are also going missing along, as apparent throughout the Kournan quests.

[Sounds Risky]

None of that really has anything to do with Kournans transforming into Margonites though.

And I don't see how it could have been happening considering The Hunger told Bayel about how Varesh needed Abaddon's forces and had no real need for Kourna's military anymore. Since The Hunger seemed to be the head demon that came through Varesh's summoning at Gandara, I would think he might have at least a little knowledge of Abaddon's ultimate intentions.

Now personally I got the impression that Varesh too was a pawn and was only brought back as a full Margonite in order to make sure the spell at the Mouth of Torment could be completed. She sure didn't show up again in the Realm of Torment.

[Karn the Betrayer]

remeber that the hunger was also eating kournan military too till we killed it... it eats eyes?