PDA

View Full Version : The Great Dwarf's name found?



Konig Des Todes
28-08-2008, 05:03
This I noticed while looking up info on the Remnant of Antiquities (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Remnant_of_Antiquities) that was brought up in this post (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4218593#poststop) in this thread (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10201206).

Sepulchre

While looking at the name of the dungeon, I started wondering who or what Dragrimmar was. There are two referrences to the name in the dungeon and the quest related to it. The dungeon name itself, Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, and the Anvil of Dragrimmar. At first, I always thought Dragrimmar was the name of the actual Anvil.

I was curious what Sepulchre meant, so I looked it up:

sepulchre
noun
a chamber that is used as a grave [syn: burial chamber]
__________________________________________________
sepulchre [ˈsepəlkə] noun
a tomb
So Sepulchre means a tomb or burial ground, this is even backed up by the Remnant's skill effect "Diamondshard Grave". Which means that Dragrimmar, despite my first thought, was a living being not a object.

Anvil of Draggrimar

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/Azazel_90/Guild%20Wars/Theories/gw036.jpg

Now, that explains the name of the dungeon, a tomb of a person named Dragrimmar. But what about the Anvil? Well, we know the Anvil's origin:

You've got the look of one who understands Dwarves. Yes, I think you'd be more suitable. Listen to my tale:
After many years of searching, I have tracked down an artifact of great import to the Dwarven people...the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say the Great Dwarf himself stood at this anvil forging great and powerful weapons, much as he forged our people. Alas, time clouds the stories and the anvil's resting place was lost. But we know it lies in wait for the time when our people will need it once again.
We believe that time is nigh, and my research has led me here. I tried to explore the depths of the sepulchre, but the traps befuddled me. At heart I'm a fighter, not a thinker. I need someone with the wit to navigate the traps and the strength to brave the terrors below to escort me to the anvil. If you've a will to help, the Dwarven people would be eternally indebted to you.

It's true then. The anvil exists! I dared not hope, but... This is great work you've done, friend. As I meditate here I may learn to be a better smith, to be able to help my people in their coming travails. Take this as a sign of the gratitude owed ye by the entire Dwarven nation, friend. This shows that the Anvil belonged to the Great Dwarf at one point in time.

So, does that mean that the Great Dwarf's name was Dragrimmar, and if he was killed, which is a possibility, his body could have been buried somewhere in this dungeon.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/Azazel_90/Guild%20Wars/Theories/gw038.jpg

This picture I just took for my own pleasure, and would like to point out to any how the Great Dwarf would have forged weapons down in the ice covered dungeon.

Sage Bollnar

Outside the dungeon, there are two dwarfs, Outrunner Remlok which I quoted, and Sage Bollnar. This is what Sage has to say:

Legends tell of an anvil of great power called the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say it was used by the Great Dwarf himself. Upon its face he forged weapons with the strength of our people and shields as unbreakable as our collective will. There's no doubt the Anvil of Dragrimmar exists, but whether it truly belogned to the Great Dwarf... that mystery may never be uncovered. But I do believe we are now close to reclaiming it. And, who knows? Perhaps the answer to this mystery will finally be found as well. The times grow dark, friend. It doesn't take a scholar to see that, and even I will rest easier knowing this power is back in our hands.


Aye, there's the rub. The nub of the matter you might say. Of defenses this place has many. I've seen some, at least as far in as Remlok lead us. You will find gates within, all sealed and named for the virtues our people received from the Great Dwarf: strength, kinship, and unity. From what I can tell, the way forward will only open to those who talk the path of the virtues. I've seen devices that open the gates. They are branded the same. When I used one, I heard gates before me opening and the distant sounds of others closing. The way forward must lie in finding the correct path to walk through the virtues.


Oh, my. Frightful creatures await you inside, manifested of ice and forgotten memories. Not the sort of thing I care for, you know. One story even tells of a guardian known as the Remnant of Antiquities awaiting within the anvil chamber. It is said the creature was shaped and brought to life by the Great Dwarf himself to guard the anvil until such time that our people would once again need its power. The tales also tell of one who would prove worthy of claiming it. I can only wonder at what terror could, watching and waiting for ages innumerable, down in the dark. The thought makes my spine tingle. That place is its domain, friend. I could imagine the air itself turning against you. Best step lightly. So it seems, at least to Dwarf Legends, and the Great Dwarf had a lot to do with the Anvil and this dungeon. The Great Dwarf hid the Anvil here, even creating puzzles and guardians to protect it until it was needed. Another thing that points to my theory.


Your thoughts and opinions on this.

Note: I am not saying that it is fact that the Great Dwarf's name is Dragrimmar, but through looking at this, this seems to be implied. I am just wanting other's ideas on this.

sequel
28-08-2008, 07:40
If you haven't finished eye of the north yet don't open this:

from what we learn in Eye of the north, the great dwarf ain't an individual being, more like a shared entity or a mutation among dwarves

Konig Des Todes
28-08-2008, 07:44
Like for sequel, don't open if you haven't beaten EN
Not really. That is not the Great Dwarf himself, but the power of the Great Dwarf that we see. It even explains at the end of Destruction's Depths and A Time for Heroes. The Great Destroyer's Mind is spread and connected to the Destroyers just as the Great Dwarf's Power is connected through King Jalis and the Dwarves.

Sir Jack
28-08-2008, 09:48
It would seem to me that if the GD's name was known, they'd use it more directly than this.
It could be that Dragrimmar is a different entity itself, who made the Anvil which the GD then used to forge weapons onto, which would make Dragrimmar an entity of the same level as the GD.
It could also be that Dragrimmar means something in the Dwarven language tha is hard to translate into Basic (the language the players speak).
Another possibility is that the anvil itself is named Dragrimmar or Anvil of Dragrimmar, and that Sepulchre of Dragrimmar refers to the "resting place" of this anvil.

Jair of the Forest
28-08-2008, 10:46
Interesting thought Az.

I've got one thing to add, might be a bit smartass'ish but mweh.
Both Dwarfs outside the Dungeon specifically say that the Great Dwarf might have used the Anvil, but they never say he was the actual owner of it. Maybe a Dwarven King called Dagrimmar created this Anvil as an offering to the Great Dwarf, and later this Dwarven King was buried at the very same place. After that the Great Dwarf might have taken the Anvil in use, accepting the offering.

Konig Des Todes
28-08-2008, 18:02
@ Sir Jack, I originally thought the dungeon was named after the Anvil itself, but very few tombs hold only an object.

As for a different entity being named Dragrimmar and he/she/it being the creator of the Anvil, that is the only thing I can see that can be the case to counter.

@Jair, I know that they say that the Great Dwarf did not create the Anvil, but it seems he did own it for a time, and at the very least he used it, as you said.

However, I cannot believe that it was a regular dwarf who created the Anvil. It is too big for even a human to use if you go up to it. The Anvil would have been used for someone of at least a Giant's size, maybe a little bigger.

That aside, if it was an old Dwarf - king, craftsman, or whatever - who made the anvil - if so, with the help of others - then why would it be in an area where dwarves rarely ever are? I would think it would be more south, and don't say that it was moved for hiding. If you look at the surroundings, it would be the perfect place for the Great Dwarf to forge things, so it was obviously put there while he used it, therefor not yet needing hiding.


Also, for the argument that the tomb would be more known if it was the Great Dwarf's can be explained two ways. 1. He left and then died, the dwarves would not know that he would have died and the Norn, or some other race *possibly even the Remnants of Antiquities* buried him there and named the place. 2. *and more likely* It was forgotten through legends that the Great Dwarf was buried here.

Sir Jack
28-08-2008, 18:54
@ Sir Jack, I originally thought the dungeon was named after the Anvil itself, but very few tombs hold only an object.


Catacombs of Kathandrax - Kathandrax' Crusher, guarded by Fire Elementals
Heart of the Shiverpeaks - Great Dwarf's Hammah

Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Arc - Little statue at the start, Lost Arc at the end

:tongue:

Seeing as how it's an Anvil used by the GD to forge weapons, it would qualify as an item of Ancient Magic, which makes sense to keep far away from any potential visitors (Norn were never really interested in anything but fighting, their weaponry is pretty savage as well), then guard it by a load of magic so that only those of you kin (Dwarves, but apparently we qualify as well due to the goodness of our heart or something. Oh, and gameplay element) can find, reach and maybe use it.
As a being powerful enough to create a race, keeping your items really well hidden and really well protected seems like a priority issue to me.

So yeah, in this case, a Tomb just for one item seems pretty just.

Konig Des Todes
28-08-2008, 22:23
Of those three examples you gave, the only one I would say is a good example would be Catacombs of Kathandrax. Heart of the Shiverpeaks is not a tomb, but a dungeon. Indiana Jones, I haven't seen that movie in such a long time so I cannot comment on it.

And I said nothing about giving an entire underground area/cave to one item and it's guardians is not a priority issue. Just stated that those are usually not tombs.

I'm gonna have to look into the Catacombs of Kathandrax for further comments.

Shinryu
29-08-2008, 01:05
You are epic, Azazel. Your name shall be written down on the Great Godly Tomes resting in the Mists, and be known throughout all eternity. :smiley:

There we go, I like this new thread of yours.

I'll put in my speculation when the thread develops even more, and do some research on my own.

Gmr Leon
29-08-2008, 01:35
Don't encourage him too much.

Anyway, I get the feeling that while this may have been an anvil used by the Great Dwarf, I do not think it carries the Great Dwarf's name. In fact..Even if the dwarves did know the Great Dwarf's name if they were even slightly religious they would not dare say it. As indicated by Alkar:


If the true name of either is spoken aloud, it would mean the end of the world as we know it.

Konig Des Todes
29-08-2008, 01:51
Don't encourage him too much. Wise words. I might start to get full of myself and look into everything I can find. Although I will say, Sir Jack has made me interested in who "Kathandrax" is, just as much as I am interested in who Dragrimmar is, if not the Great Dwarf.


In fact..Even if the dwarves did know the Great Dwarf's name if they were even slightly religious they would not dare say it. As indicated by Alkar: That is a good point. I never noticed that he said "of either" before. Although, I must know, why would speaking the Great Dwarf's name bring the end of the world? If it acts the same way as the Great Destroyer's name, then it would bring back the Great Dwarf. One would think that to be a good thing.

Unless, the Great Dwarf was really evil or something, and the dwarves just strayed from that and hidden that side of him in old times.

Edit: Or what Leon said in the post below.

Gmr Leon
29-08-2008, 01:57
Or it might just be a general thing. A bit like in some cultures you could not look at the Emperor or else you would die instantaneously or your eyes would boil out or some lovely thing like that.

That or its similar to some jokes related to higher entities names being beyond any mortal's meager comprehensive abilities. Although in this case it's the world's inability to comprehend it leading to its own self-destruction.

Jair of the Forest
29-08-2008, 11:01
However, I cannot believe that it was a regular dwarf who created the Anvil. It is too big for even a human to use if you go up to it. The Anvil would have been used for someone of at least a Giant's size, maybe a little bigger.

Read my post again. I said he would create it for the Great Dwarf to use, as an offering.


That aside, if it was an old Dwarf - king, craftsman, or whatever - who made the anvil - if so, with the help of others - then why would it be in an area where dwarves rarely ever are?

There are entire cities in Tyria where there rarely are humans. They're called ruins. I don't see why this Anvil or even the Sepulcher couldn't be named after an ancient dwarven king who created the Anvil as an offering for the Great Dwarf. It is not impossible at all that there was a dwarven civilization in the Far Shiverpeaks like there is one in the Southern. In fact, we find ghosts of dwarves in nearly all the dungeons of the north.

VJ Elfins
29-08-2008, 11:45
Although, I must know, why would speaking the Great Dwarf's name bring the end of the world? If it acts the same way as the Great Destroyer's name, then it would bring back the Great Dwarf. One would think that to be a good thing.

If I recall correctly, bringing back the Great Dwarf (in whatever form) did in a way mean the end of the world - that of the dwarves, by turning them to stone.

Also, I think the Great Dwarf's name needed to be said in certain circumstances, like a ritual involving the actual anvil, to bring about said end. Remember the cinema where the dwarves are transformed? Just saying his name wouldn't work, but it sounds like that detail got lost in the evolution of this legend and therefore unknown to most dwarfs.

Elex Aio
29-08-2008, 20:24
Kinda off topic but..

In a recent interview with the game devs, they said that they had content lined up to be added ingame up till early next year, and they wanted to expand the lore of guild wars.

It would be interesting if one of these content updates (a mission or quest maybe) pertained to who Kathandrax or Dagrimmar are. Like if we found their spirits or something. To me they both sound like dwarves.

La Jaffa
28-09-2008, 18:28
Or that they put them in the epilogue, At the sides of Droknar.

Noname Otakugami
29-09-2008, 14:50
If the Anvil of Dragimar is know by dwarves, but the name of the Great Dwarf is not, then Dragrimmar is not the Grat Dwarf.

Dragrimmar was probably like Droknar, just another famous dwarf.

I also believe that all dwarves came from somewhere else.
And that 'anvil' was used to open the rift from where they came from their original world. Something like "hitting the anvil so hard that you break the space itseld". Gods can do things like that.
I strongly believe that most of the species in Tyria came from other worlds through the Mists.


Don't encourage him too much.
Anyway, I get the feeling that while this may have been an anvil used by the Great Dwarf, I do not think it carries the Great Dwarf's name. In fact..Even if the dwarves did know the Great Dwarf's name if they were even slightly religious they would not dare say it. As indicated by Alkar:

That looks like a figure of speech to me. It means that when people talk about any of them, the world will be no more as it is know.
In other words: When they are everybody's mouth, it would be because they have awaken and the party begins.

Konig Des Todes
29-09-2008, 22:00
If the Anvil of Dragimar is know by dwarves, but the name of the Great Dwarf is not, then Dragrimmar is not the Grat Dwarf.

Dragrimmar was probably like Droknar, just another famous dwarf.There are a few reasons why I disagree with this:

1. The Sepulcher of Dragrimmar is in a land nearly devoid of Dwarves, a famous dwarf would have been buried farther south, in Dwarven territory.

2. The Great Dwarf's name might have been known, but forgotten/removed when he died, much like Abaddon's name. And like Abaddon and Abaddon's Mouth, some areas might have been overlooked in the removal of the name. The reason why the name would be removed would be as Gmr Leon stated, they believed that the pronunciation of either name would bring about their own end.

But because the Sepulcher is so far north, they would forget about it in removing the name, then so much time passed that they forgot that it was the name of the Great Dwarf (and the burial place of the Great Dwarf, that part would have been done intentionally to go with the whole "he's waiting in the Great Forge for us" idea).

Noname Otakugami
30-09-2008, 16:16
If they call it Sepulcher of Dragrimmar, it's because they know its name.
It's not in a plaque at the door, you know?

Jair of the Forest
30-09-2008, 19:42
1. The Sepulcher of Dragrimmar is in a land nearly devoid of Dwarves, a famous dwarf would have been buried farther south, in Dwarven territory.


This is true, but we don't know where the Dwarves have been in the past. They might have come from the North..or maybe they lived underground till they went southwards and starting building cities. They might have been the actual builders of all the architecture in the Far Shiverpeaks Dungeons.

Konig Des Todes
30-09-2008, 22:14
If they call it Sepulcher of Dragrimmar, it's because they know its name.
It's not in a plaque at the door, you know?The plaque isn't at the Door, it's at Sifhalla. The dungeon is known by name via the Norn, not via the Dwarves.

Noname Otakugami
30-09-2008, 23:54
The Dwarves and the Norn knew each other long before the heroes knew about Norn.

That's because dwarves have been traveling the Depths of Tyria for a long time, specially the Shiverpeaks underground.
That's how they found places like Sorrow's Furnace, made by others.

The Anvil is just an item that is rumored to have been used by the Great Dwarf, named after someone else.

Just that.

Konig Des Todes
01-10-2008, 00:07
Although I know that the Norn and Dwarves knew of each other for a while (it's kinda point blank obvious if you watch the cinematics), I don't see how that has to do with the Depths of Tyria. And Sorrow's Furnace was made by the Dwarves, but sections were made by others (mainly the southwestern area and the Northeastern area *which is mostly not even underground*).

And there is nothing to say that Dragrimmar is not the Great Dwarf, so you cannot say that it is fact that it is not, only that it is unlikely. Until it is proven false you cannot say it is false, just improbable, just as I cannot say it is fact that the Great Dwarf's name is Dragrimmar.

And it seems to be a bit more then rumor that the Great Dwarf used the Anvil of Dragrimmar.

La Jaffa
25-10-2008, 12:13
Its a mythe that he used it...
but it is a good speculation, but the Anvil looks a little small, because he forged The dwarfs on Anvil rock... thats VERY Big.

Jair of the Forest
25-10-2008, 13:47
Its a mythe that he used it...
but it is a good speculation, but the Anvil looks a little small, because he forged The dwarfs on Anvil rock... thats VERY Big.

Actually, that could mean 2 things:
1. He actually used the monolith (not a Graven Monolith..a monolith is just a geographical name for a big boulder) as an anvil.
2. He had an Anvil standing on top of the monolith, on which he created the Dwarves.

Konig Des Todes
25-10-2008, 18:58
I am tempted to go either with 2, or 3.

3. The Great Dwarf, like believed of the other gods, can change his shape, therefore shrunk to use the Anvil of Dragrimmar.

deco inferno
27-10-2008, 11:15
I also believed that the Name of the Great Dwarf meant the end of the world as we know it.

If this is so then there are numerous times when Dragimmar is mentioned that the end of the world could have been brought about.

Can I bring into debate the Hammer of the Great Dwarf as well?
Anyone to have completed EOTN would be aware that this hammer is the size of most other 2 handed hammer which could be a better indication of his size (I suspect for forging wielding a 2 handed hammer would not be very practical :P)

Noname Otakugami
27-10-2008, 14:23
Don't discard Possession.

We know that when dwarves became the Great Dwarf, they turned into stone, and changed both in mind and body.

Nothing is against that if a dwarf use the same hammer in the anvil, we won't be temporarily possess by the same force that turned the other dwarves into stone, "becoming the Great Dwarf".

Konig Des Todes
27-10-2008, 22:25
I also believed that the Name of the Great Dwarf meant the end of the world as we know it.

If this is so then there are numerous times when Dragimmar is mentioned that the end of the world could have been brought about.This is mearly a hypothesis and, imo, is as logical as using "there is one god, that is the <insert Abrahamic religion's name for God>" in a argument on whether being *** is right or wrong.

No proof to suggest that would happen, even for the Great Destroyer's true name. Unless the name of the Great Destroyer/Dwarf were in fact very powerful spells that would cause as much, or more, devastation as the Cataclysm and Searing, I don't see how it would bring the end of the world.


Can I bring into debate the Hammer of the Great Dwarf as well?
Anyone to have completed EOTN would be aware that this hammer is the size of most other 2 handed hammer which could be a better indication of his size (I suspect for forging wielding a 2 handed hammer would not be very practical :P)You can bring it into debate. And I would like to tell you that it is believed that the Gods, which in my opinion would include the Great Dwarf, can change their shape and size. Although not proven, would explain the whole "Anvil of Dragrimmar" "Hammer of the Great Dwarf" and "Anvil Rock" size differences.


We know that when dwarves became the Great Dwarf, they turned into stone, and changed both in mind and body. Not really, they are given the power of the Great Dwarf, they do not become the Great Dwarf. At least, that is how it seems to me. Similar to the Destroyers' mind, the Great Dwarf's power was spread among the Dwarves. While their mind is, in the very least, influenced with hatred to the Destroyers, it is not necessarily possession.

Super Range Ranger
22-06-2009, 16:21
I searched Sepulchre of Dragrimmar on google and it asked me if i meant Sepulchre of orgrimmar.Which made me think this could just be another WoW reference. :brainiac:

Burning Freebies
22-06-2009, 17:22
Im thinking that the Great Dwarf did use this anvil. Im guessing that he was a hero amongst an old old Dwarven clan, that eventually made a burial chamber for him-hence the sepulchure.

Then, the worshipped him as a god. People nowdays usually say they worship someone as a god for doing something good, so what if the Great Dwarf was an actual living dwarf, then did something good to cause all this worship?

La Jaffa
22-06-2009, 22:18
Possible
But in most mythologies your a Demi god then (?) or just a great hero but not a god

Konig Des Todes
23-06-2009, 00:31
Great Heroes are never said to create an entire race upon a giant anvil-shaped rock.