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Gmr Leon
22-09-2008, 01:17
A brief introduction to the Mists and the Rift.


Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

In the middle of the Mists is a spot where time moves neither forward nor back. It is a tear in the fabric of the cosmos, the point of perfect balance between all forces of the universe. This place is known as the Rift, and there is nothing to which it does not connect, nothing that cannot be reached from inside it. Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places. It is the center of all things.

The Nature of the Gods and their Relation to the Mists.


From that look on your face, I suppose you want to know more. How can I put this so that you will understand.... Gods are part of this world. Think of these "facets" as one of any number of possible manifestations of those gods.

From this example, I believe that the Gods are actually sentient portions of the Mists. From what we’re provided in the description of the Mists in the portion describing Razah, this doesn’t sound too far off.


The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with a humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

This being the case, it seems highly probable or possible, that the Mists themselves would clump together and coalesce until they formed a deity-like entity that dominates a certain aspect of the Mists. These beings would contain the main element of the Mists that makes the Mists so peculiar, straining towards creation; being sentient, however, they would have traits that are similar to humans like emotion and caring. This in turn would give reason for certain actions on the part of the Gods and would explain why most of the sentient species are aware of their existence, despite being from another plane or world.

The current Gods may have been humans from another world, this is entirely possible. My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods. They were formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, containing larger chunks in their souls, or perhaps even their entire soul was a chunk of the Mists. Which is what allows them to so easily manipulate the Mists because they're able to uplink with it at ease.

I believe they have a higher amount of control over the Mists, but not complete dominance over it.

The Nature of the Bloodstones, Magic itself, and the Mists.

The most interesting part is the introduction of magic into the world, this was done by Abaddon, as we all know and it states that he handed it out too freely. I think, that water conducts magic yes, but that magic itself is the manipulation of the Mists. What I think Abaddon did, was bring the Mists or certain aspects of the Mists, into the living creatures themselves and that he brought the Mists closer to Tyria itself allowing easier manipulation of the Mists. That he brought the Mists close to Tyria and of course, being so close allows easier manipulation which allows abuse on the part of the races, which is why the Gods punished him and placed him in the Realm of Torment.

To bring the Mists closer to Tyria would only end in catastrophe, as we know it will produce demons on its own accord, and that would only unleash further devastation upon Tyria. If Abaddon did this with that knowledge in mind is unknown, but as a God of Secrets it seems that it may have simply been something that the benefits outweighed the costs. However, the other Gods clearly disagreed, which is why they crafted the Bloodstones..And on that topic..

I believe that they obviously contain the more destructive forces of magic, but I also believe they act as a barrier against the Mists. A sort of grid that keeps the Mists from completely pervading into Tyria and keeping the balance of power, another way to view it could be as columns supporting a ceiling and keeping it from completely falling down. In short, we can simply call this the Bloodstone Barrier, or Barriers.

An idea that occurred to me after the initial posting of this thread, and can be seen in a later post of mine, is a better example of my idea. My idea would probably be better described by a Dam. There's a large amount of water on one side, and a lesser amount on the other. Every now and then, water is let through the Dam to the other side. In my example it would be that the Mists as a whole are on one side, and then a smaller restricted amount is on the other side, in this case Tyria, with the Bloodstones acting as the Dam. When they are activated, the more destructive aspects of the Mists are let through or more easily manipulated, and then the flow stops whenever the length of the activation ends.

Magic, Mists, Water

Every tragedy that has occurred in Tyria has usually altered the landscape dramatically, by lowering something. In the Margonite War, the water level was lowered, and the seabed brought to the surface. In the Searing, Ascalon was almost completely leveled. Orr was completely leveled. The Harvest Temple was brought down by the force of Shiro’s death wail that it created a whirlpool and froze.

I believe that, in the case of the Margonite War, Abaddon utilized water’s conductivity, where the whirlpool is described in the Scriptures of Abaddon, to create the meteorites that struck down the ships, further depleting the water.

In the case of the Harvest Temple, we’re provided a wonderful, wonderful fact that further proves that the Gods are sentient portions of the Mists, the Mists are just a manipulation of magic, and that one can sidestep the barrier produced by the Bloodstones through certain methods. In this scenario, the Gods bless the Emperor with a part of their power to distribute among the people to ease their burdens, however, through rituals Shiro made himself capable of stealing this power, but this could only be done by releasing the power through death. The Emperor was a conduit and a container, which Shiro managed to make himself into through his rituals, however, Abaddon manipulated him to bypass the Bloodstone Barriers. He wanted to throw the Gods power in their face, and used it as a way to get souls to help his other end motives. When the power was released by Shiro’s death, it was as though the Mists themselves punched into the world, a side effect of this through the conductivity of the water, and whatever the nature of the manipulated Mists, was the petrifying of the Jade Sea and the Echovald.

When it comes to the Searing and Cataclysm, it would appear that the artifacts themselves held a part of the Mists, and of course when manipulated correctly, bypassed the Bloodstone Barriers by their very existence beneath them. If the Mists are contained within an object, it appears that it could not be removed by the Barriers, but only by being hidden or removed from the world. Obviously for both artifacts used in the Searing and the Cataclysm, they went for the former.

Souls, Souls, the Never-Ending Energy Source?

So, I’ve come to the conclusion that magic is just a form of the Mists being manipulated, but souls happen to be a key energy source for Margonites, Demons, Mursaat, and perhaps even the Gods themselves. Magic is also a central energy source. The end conclusion then must be that souls contain certain parts of the Mists, that, when in a large supply, are a morbid and dark form of energy that is only used by the vilest creatures or by creatures that have no other choice but to use them for sustenance.

A point made later in this thread by Azazel was that the body or soul could possibly be a chunk of the Mists. Expanding on that with my idea that magic is simply the manipulation of the Mists, that chunk would be what allowed them the ability to manipulate. Highly skilled mages would have a larger chunk of the Mists making up their soul, or possibly just long years of training in how to connect the chunk to the whole of the Mists allowing easier manipulation.

Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists.

My apologies for the length..I’ve had this on my mind for quite awhile, and just now got to writing it down in a, hopefully, coherent manner that conveys my ideas in the proper manner and does not confuse anyone.

Shinryu
22-09-2008, 01:26
It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

Judging from that, I believe the Gods came from The Mists. The Dragons came from the mists also. So what created The Mists, where did it come from, and if so where is the creator of the creator?

Gmr Leon
22-09-2008, 01:34
It would appear that the Mists just are. Or in your example, the Creator just is.

Shinryu
22-09-2008, 01:56
That doesn't really answer the question!:rolleyes:


It would appear that the Mists just are. Or in your example, the Creator just is.

Konig Des Todes
22-09-2008, 02:03
Interesting theory.

For the souls section, I would have to say that, they can be used as an energy source because they are made from the Mists. I would argue, that the souls are literally a part of the Mists, tiny sentient pieces of the Mists that power material bodies.


Judging from that, I believe the Gods came from The Mists. The Dragons came from the mists also. So what created The Mists, where did it come from, and if so where is the creator of the creator? Simply put, they have always existed. Same idea that is put forth for justifying the Abrahamic God's existence. Always existed.

Gmr Leon
22-09-2008, 02:07
For the souls section, I would have to say that, they can be used as an energy source because they are made from the Mists. I would argue, that the souls are literally a part of the Mists, tiny sentient pieces of the Mists that power material bodies.

That's certainly a possibility, and would sort of explain how Kormir kormired Abaddon. Her soul being a part of the Mists, simply connected and joined with the Mists that made up Abaddon. Still remaining herself, but containing the violent forces of the Mists that would literally tear apart Tyria had she not joined with them and contained them.

Shinryu
22-09-2008, 02:56
And how has The Mists always existed?

Gmr Leon
22-09-2008, 03:00
...Let's not get into that. If the Asura know the Mists exist and always have, being the central "atheistic" group in GW, we'll just have to take it as it is. Going into the topic of how the Mists exist is similar to asking how God exists, you're just going to end up punching through air without any conclusive results.

The thing is, the Mists exist, we know they exist, how they exist is mostly irrelevant.

Advocate Rhino
22-09-2008, 08:47
Every theological system eventually stops and some point or another and says, "We don't know how that got there." Which is probably more responsible than "it got there because it is everything and nothing... zzzz..."

The mists are basically that point in GWs I think. If they explain them, people would just ask "but how did the mist spraying machine get there" :)

Karn the Betrayer
22-09-2008, 08:59
so we don't actually go into the mists ingame or could part of the UW be counted as the mists?

another thing is that huge statue in the C.D be a margonite before their fall being an ancient elonian?

Karuro
22-09-2008, 18:29
so we don't actually go into the mists ingame or could part of the UW be counted as the mists?

another thing is that huge statue in the C.D be a margonite before their fall being an ancient elonian?
1: The Mists are all the divineish realms. UW, FoW, HoH.. Now let that sink in and maybe you'll get what I'm saying here. (It has also been mentioned hundreds of times, I bet)

2: It's just a female warrior in 1.5k droks armor. Enough margonite conspiracies already.

Gmr Leon
22-09-2008, 22:32
Actually, that's not right..The Mists are similar to outer space in our world, or at least they appear to be. The Underworld, Fissure of Woes, Rift, Hall of Heroes, Tyria, everything exists within the Mists. Just as everything exists within the Universe.

Karuro
22-09-2008, 22:38
Actually, that's not right..The Mists are similar to outer space in our world, or at least they appear to be. The Underworld, Fissure of Woes, Rift, Hall of Heroes, Tyria, everything exists within the Mists. Just as everything exists within the Universe.
Yes, I got a bit mingled after seeing Azazel's interpretation of The Mists.

Konig Des Todes
23-09-2008, 04:16
1: The Mists are all the divineish realms. UW, FoW, HoH.. Now let that sink in and maybe you'll get what I'm saying here. (It has also been mentioned hundreds of times, I bet)


Yes, I got a bit mingled after seeing Azazel's interpretation of The Mists. Switch The Mists with The Rift and you get a cookie and correct posts. :)


so we don't actually go into the mists ingame or could part of the UW be counted as the mists? The Underworld and other Realm of the Gods are either themselves (not attached to anything) or part of the Rift *more likely imo*. Everything can be "counted" as part of The Mists because, as Leon said, The Mists is like outerspace, it surrounds everything, but yet nothing is truly a part of the Mists, just connected and created from it.

In other words, everything is linked to the Mists, in multiple ways, but are not considered part of the Mists.

Side-Note: Whenever I type The Mists, I am tempted to spell it Mysts... Myst was a good game...

Karuro
23-09-2008, 15:25
^
But the Rift is the center of The Mists. And as far as we know, the HoH (and courtyard) is inside the Rift. The rest is outside of it, god knows where in The Mists.
So in our terms: The Center of the Universe or something.

The Mists:

Before there were humans (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human) or dwarves (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dwarf), before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.The Rift:

This place is known as the Rift, and there is nothing to which it does not connect, nothing that cannot be reached from inside it. Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places. It is the center of all things.

Which means, if you want to go from say, the UW to the FoW, you'd need to go to the Rift first. Think of a train station departing to everywhere. Though the stations in the realms outside the Rift only go to the Rift and back. We get the help from Avatars in the Tyrian realm to access more realms than normal (Since we can't find these "stations", because we aren't one of the know-how's like Odran).

Though the Heroes Ascent tournament allows us to use the UW's "train station" to the Rift's Courtyard (And passing that, to the Hall of Heroes).

Noname Otakugami
23-09-2008, 17:08
I'm sure you'll call me crazy when I say this.
But since I knew that the power of a god can be transfered, I stater to think that the current gods were once humans.
So, the power of the gods exists even without gods, but can be controlled by a creature that contains the power, by turning into a god.
Now imagine a little party of adventurers, that find a lost treasure, and use it, and they gain god-like power.
Now, as 'new gods' they meddle with the ones that were already there (like Dhuum) an defeat them, and deal with others that want to gain their same powers (like Menzies) or meddle between themselves (like with Abaddon).

Probably the human gods were once humans (Lysa could be a pair of twin sisters that gained the same power and joined as one in the process), and they tried to live among humans, but they found too much problems, so they finally left to the mists.

About the Bloodstones, I think that they are both seals and droppers. They lock away the power that is the source of the magic humans were given and other creatures learned to use also, and at the same time, they let it flow slowly.
I also think that the power locked by them is not the power from the gods. The gods took something powerful and magical and locked it away by creating a 'containment field' were the that thing giving the power is sealed.
If you unlock even one of the Bloodstones, what was locked by them starts to recover its power.

I also think that there are powers canalized by bloodstones, and powers that are not.
Skills that disappear in GW2 would be the ones given by the bloodstones, the ones that remain would be poewers that are not.

Gmr Leon
23-09-2008, 21:46
Er..The Bloostones exist in the present..And I understand what you're saying about them containing certain powers, or what I would consider aspects of magic, but then you lose me.


I also think that there are powers canalized by bloodstones, and powers that are not.
Skills that disappear in GW2 would be the ones given by the bloodstones, the ones that remain would be poewers that are not.

...That would mean that no skills would disappear in GW2 because all of the ones we use are the powers that are not provided by the Bloodstones.

Also..The Bloodstones don't begin to recover their power by one activation. Their power seeps out, yes, but to get the full amount of it you must activate it each time.

I think we have the same understanding of the Bloodstones..Or at least similar. My idea would probably be better described by a Dam. There's a large amount of water on one side, and a lesser amount on the other. Every now and then, water is let through the Dam to the other side. In my example it would be that the Mists as a whole are on one side, and then a smaller restricted amount is on the other side with the Bloodstones acting as the Dam. When they are activated, the Mists are let through or more easily manipulated, and then the flow stops whenever the length of the activation ends.

Skyy High
23-09-2008, 23:05
To bring the Mists closer to Tyria would only end in catastrophe, as we know it will produce demons on its own accord, and that would only unleash further devastation upon Tyria. If Abaddon did this with that knowledge in mind is unknown, but as a God of Secrets it seems that it may have simply been something that the benefits outweighed the costs. However, the other Gods clearly disagreed, which is why they crafted the Bloodstones.
If this is the case, then why does Balthazar seem so comfortable with opening a portal directly to the Rift in the ruins of LA in GW2?

Gmr Leon
23-09-2008, 23:13
There's a difference between the Rift and the Mists. The Rift is an actual structure, a nexus, within the center of the Mists. Demons, apparently, don't spawn there or can't be spawned there. Though there's nothing to keep them from invading, which is something we've seen occur in the case of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.

It also just shows that Balthazar doesn't like to go without his random little mortals killing one another.

Konig Des Todes
24-09-2008, 00:52
But since I knew that the power of a god can be transfered, I stater to think that the current gods were once humans.
So, the power of the gods exists even without gods, but can be controlled by a creature that contains the power, by turning into a god.
Now imagine a little party of adventurers, that find a lost treasure, and use it, and they gain god-like power.
Now, as 'new gods' they meddle with the ones that were already there (like Dhuum) an defeat them, and deal with others that want to gain their same powers (like Menzies) or meddle between themselves (like with Abaddon).

Probably the human gods were once humans (Lysa could be a pair of twin sisters that gained the same power and joined as one in the process), and they tried to live among humans, but they found too much problems, so they finally left to the mists. I agree that the current gods were once mortals, but not human. Grenth, Abaddon, Dwayna, and Melandru show humanistic characteristics, but don't show themselves to be humans. Melandru and Dwayna are angelic. Grenth is, well hard to say (one mural shows him with wings so... Angel of Death? All we know is that he wears a skull). Abaddon was demonic (the physical entity we saw was very much like a Jade Armor, but i doubt a connection). Balthazar seems to be Human and Lyssa is a mystery. Lyssa seems to be siamese twins in some murals, one entity with multiple faces in others, so hard to tell. I highly doubt they became gods via finding treasure. Grenth killed Dhuum, Kormir "killed" Abaddon, Abaddon killed one or two other gods (I suspect one to be Arachnia), others are of unknown origins.


About the Bloodstones, I think that they are both seals and droppers. They lock away the power that is the source of the magic humans were given and other creatures learned to use also, and at the same time, they let it flow slowly.
I also think that the power locked by them is not the power from the gods. The gods took something powerful and magical and locked it away by creating a 'containment field' were the that thing giving the power is sealed.
If you unlock even one of the Bloodstones, what was locked by them starts to recover its power.

I also think that there are powers canalized by bloodstones, and powers that are not.
Skills that disappear in GW2 would be the ones given by the bloodstones, the ones that remain would be poewers that are not. Like I told you in the Mysterious Stranger thread, it is known that Abaddon gave out the magic to all sentient races, and the other gods struck him down, then sealed most of the magic in the Bloodstones. Lastly, you unlock the Bloodstones by King Doric's blood, so, I don't think they would have that as the last precaution to holding something back (in your idea, apparently the Ancient Dragons) by just a drop of blood, then letting Doric and all his family live on *Why let the last key exist? Destroy the key, destroy the threat, doesn't make sense*.

Skyy High
24-09-2008, 02:08
There's a difference between the Rift and the Mists. The Rift is an actual structure, a nexus, within the center of the Mists. Demons, apparently, don't spawn there or can't be spawned there. Though there's nothing to keep them from invading, which is something we've seen occur in the case of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings.
Still, opening a portal directly to the Rift, whether or not it's supposed to be "safe" from demon-spawning, brings Tyria way closer to the Mists than a little spreading of magic could have. Unless, of course, every time we cast a spell we're opening small portals to the Mists to draw power from....OMG, EVERYONE, STOP CASTING!


It also just shows that Balthazar doesn't like to go without his random little mortals killing one another.
I'm touched that he loves us so. :grin:

Gmr Leon
24-09-2008, 02:19
In a way, you are right..I'm not exactly sure of a better way to explain my thoughts on that than my post you just quoted. Aside from the fact that..Oddly, other sentient creatures don't seem to attempt travel through there for whatever reason. There's only been one other case, of living sentient creatures besides humans, being there.

Whatever the case, I think the best explanation lies in Azazel's interpretation that connections can be made from within the Rift, but do not exist there constantly. Otherwise, I can't see anything else to explain the lack of otherwordly creatures being there.

Konig Des Todes
24-09-2008, 02:32
Still, opening a portal directly to the Rift, whether or not it's supposed to be "safe" from demon-spawning, brings Tyria way closer to the Mists than a little spreading of magic could have. Unless, of course, every time we cast a spell we're opening small portals to the Mists to draw power from....OMG, EVERYONE, STOP CASTING! I think what makes the passage safe, is where the portal goes through. Since all of Odran's portals go to the Rift, what needs to be known is where in the Rift. As I stated in my thread (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=482759) about the Rift, the portal in The Tombs of Primeval Kings would lead to the Underworld, which at the time of Prophecies/Factions, is under attack by demons. That explains how the demons corrupted that portal (and then they just followed the path to the Hall of Heroes).

Balthazar, not wanting to threaten his gladiators, would open the portal to a safer place. The Fissue of Woe might or might not be under attack still, same with the Underworld. The Realm of Torment (at that time the Redeemed Realm) would have demons in it still. So that leaves Dwayna's Realm, Lyssa's Realm, and Melandru's Realm. Of course, the Fissure of Woe might not be under attack at that time as well. So the portal can lead anywhere in the Rift, even lead straight to the Hall of Heroes.

Therefore, Balthzar's portal would be safe, as long as either end of the portal doesn't get attacked like the one leading to the Underworld.


In a way, you are right..I'm not exactly sure of a better way to explain my thoughts on that than my post you just quoted. Aside from the fact that..Oddly, other sentient creatures don't seem to attempt travel through there for whatever reason. There's only been one other case, of living sentient creatures besides humans, being there. There is a simple answer to why basically only humans are found exploring the Rift. Humans desire power.

Gmr Leon
24-09-2008, 03:06
I wouldn't say power. They're just extremely curious...With the obvious underlying interest in obtaining power.

Shinryu
24-09-2008, 03:58
So let me guess this straight, we are discussing knowledge already known? O_o

Konig Des Todes
24-09-2008, 04:04
There are holes in the information we know, and that is what we are discussing.

jayson
24-09-2008, 05:01
Actually, that's not right.. The Mists are similar to outer space in our world, or at least they appear to be. The Underworld, Fissure of Woes, Rift, Hall of Heroes, Tyria, everything exists within the Mists. Just as everything exists within the Universe.

I would think of the mists as something closer to the central transfer chamber like the Asura built. Not so much a space but a connection to all other places. Like a big knot in the center of a million strings streaming out of the center.


From this example, I believe that the gods are actually sentient portions of the Mists. From what we’re provided in the description of the Mists in the portion describing Razah, this doesn’t sound too far off.

Ok so this part confuses me a little. The gods are a part of the Mists, but are or aren’t in control of it? Razah was created by the Mists or the gods? If he was created by the gods then it would make sense why he would only have basic humanoid limits. If in fact he was created by the Mists, then why was Razah not created as powerful as the gods?

It’s things like this that lead me to believe we’re going to find out what’s written about the mists is a lie. That in fact it was a small group of humans who stumbled upon the Mists long ago and hid the knowledge of how to gain it’s power. I find it too coincidental that the gods are originally depicted as human when there were other forms they could’ve taken. This sounds to me like deliberate propaganda from the original humans to fool humanity into believing that gods existed and humans are created by them. We have examples now that prove humans are easily able to not only travel the mists, but actually supplant and obtain a Gods power.

Imo to further my theory the gods split up the magic because they knew it was all too easy for humanity to achieve “godhood” with all the magic intact. It’s was imo a self preservation measure that the gods split up the magic into the bloodstones to save their own status. Looking at it from this point of view, one might even say that Abaddon was actually like Prometheus and it was the other gods who duped us all into believing he was the original bad guy.


Abaddon was formerly the God of Water and Knowledge. When the gods gave the sentient races of Tyria the gift of magic, it was Abaddon who represented the gods and handled the actual distribution. However, Abaddon gave out this gift a little too freely and indiscriminately, which fueled the greed that caused the sentient races to abuse it and wage massive wars against each other.


The Exodus of the Gods is an event that marks the central point of the Mouvelian Calendar. It is the year in which the Gods of Tyria departed from the world of Tyria and no longer lived among their creations. Prior to the Exodus, the Gods used to live in the city of Arah in Orr, on the continent of Tyria. After the Gods controlled the use of magic and brought back the creatures of Tyria (World) from the brink of self-destruction by giving the Bloodstones to King Doric, they decided to leave the world.

Realisticly speaking why would the gods live among their creations? I feel this further proves that the gods were in fact human so much so that they actually had a human dwelling. Be it a continent, a city or a single dwelling. What need would a god that is a being of “mist” or energy need with tangible things? I think the Exodus was because the humans once again were getting too far along in the discovery of godlike powers. Eventually the bloodstones would all be discovered and with enough time and effort could be reunited.

Even with Kormir, she became the god of secrets. I would imagine she understands the role she’s been given and that she can’t reveal just how easy it is to become a “God” even though we see it with our own eyes. The change of power seems far too easy imo.


Originally Posted by The Manuscripts
The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with a humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

A suitable human template? This seems to speak volumes to me. We have the mists that can only mimick humanity. If that’s so then how is it that the Gods who are actually of the mists, able to create a human or civilization for that matter, when the mists they derive from can’t? It's like a Golem 1.0 being asked to create an Asura.


These beings would contain the main element of the Mists that makes the Mists so peculiar, straining towards creation; being sentient, however, they would have traits that are similar to humans like emotion and caring. This in turn would give reason for certain actions on the part of the Gods and would explain why most of the sentient species are aware of their existence, despite being from another plane or world.

Similar yes but not human. Hence the reason why I say the creation of humans by the current gods is a lie and in fact other then tapping into the power of the mists, there’s no difference between a Tyrian and say Grenth for example. The mists just allow the humans who’ve mastered it to possibly alter their physical form, height or weight in any manner they choose even as far as becoming energy or non corpereal. Wings are easily recreated through magic by a paragon for example. Fire, special armor, skull faces... all of it currently possible to recreate by any skilled human.


Originally Posted by Skyy High
Still, opening a portal directly to the Rift, whether or not it's supposed to be "safe" from demon-spawning, brings Tyria way closer to the Mists than a little spreading of magic could have. Unless, of course, every time we cast a spell we're opening small portals to the Mists to draw power from....OMG, EVERYONE, STOP CASTING!

Essentially aren’t all of the rifts that are currently used previously been created by Odran ? Also if I have this correct, didn’t we use a rift to escape with Stormcaller? That seemed fairly safe to use didn’t it?

Konig Des Todes
24-09-2008, 05:28
I would think of the mists as something closer to the central transfer chamber like the Asura built. Not so much a space but a connection to all other places. Like a big knot in the center of a million strings streaming out of the center. Wrong, that is the Rift that acts as a Nexxus (or like the Central Transfer Chamber).


Ok so this part confuses me a little. The gods are a part of the Mists, but are or aren’t in control of it? Razah was created by the Mists or the gods? If he was created by the gods then it would make sense why he would only have basic humanoid limits. If in fact he was created by the Mists, then why was Razah not created as powerful as the gods? Either, he was created by Abaddon specifically, or the Mists. All demons are created by the Mists, each with different amount of powers and different shapes. Razah was made with a humanoid shape. Keep in mind, he was originally designed to be the strongest hero (able to change primary professions).


It’s things like this that lead me to believe we’re going to find out what’s written about the mists is a lie. That in fact it was a small group of humans who stumbled upon the Mists long ago and hid the knowledge of how to gain it’s power. I find it too coincidental that the gods are originally depicted as human when there were other forms they could’ve taken. This sounds to me like deliberate propaganda from the original humans to fool humanity into believing that gods existed and humans are created by them. We have examples now that prove humans are easily able to not only travel the mists, but actually supplant and obtain a Gods power. I think, that the current gods were not the original gods, and that they fear being supplanted by evil. To prevent evil from getting the upper hand is a good enough reason to prevent some knowledge (like how to become a god) from getting out.


Imo to further my theory the gods split up the magic because they knew it was all too easy for humanity to achieve “godhood” with all the magic intact. It’s was imo a self preservation measure that the gods split up the magic into the bloodstones to save their own status. Looking at it from this point of view, one might even say that Abaddon was actually like Prometheus and it was the other gods who duped us all into believing he was the original bad guy. Splitting up magic was more of a preservation of the species, who would have continuously killed each other for power (eventually maybe working their way to the gods).



Realisticly speaking why would the gods live among their creations? I feel this further proves that the gods were in fact human so much so that they actually had a human dwelling. Be it a continent, a city or a single dwelling. What need would a god that is a being of “mist” or energy need with tangible things? I think the Exodus was because the humans once again were getting too far along in the discovery of godlike powers. Eventually the bloodstones would all be discovered and with enough time and effort could be reunited.

Even with Kormir, she became the god of secrets. I would imagine she understands the role she’s been given and that she can’t reveal just how easy it is to become a “God” even though we see it with our own eyes. The change of power seems far too easy imo. Wouldn't you want to live with your children? Being creations would be the same as being children to some people, especially when the creation is sentient. Kormir is actuallly the Goddes of Truth and Knowledge, not secrets. :wink: Also, remember that Abaddon was weakened, so the other gods would be much more powerful then how strong Abaddon was when we fought him.


A suitable human template? This seems to speak volumes to me. We have the mists that can only mimick humanity. If that’s so then how is it that the Gods, who are actually of the mists, able to create a human or civilization for that matter, when the mists they derive from can’t? It's like a Golem 1.0 being asked to create an Asura. This is an interesting point to bring up, I believe that it is more along the lines of "once done, cannot be redone." Meaning that anything directly created from the mists are only copies by chance. And if you bring up torment demons, I'll just bring up game mechanics and simplicity.


Similar yes but not human. Hence the reason why I say the creation of humans by the current gods is a lie and in fact other then tapping into the power of the mists, there’s no difference between a Tyrian and say Grenth for example. The mists just allow the humans who’ve mastered it to possibly alter their physical form, height or weight in any manner they choose even as far as becoming energy or non corpereal. Wings are easily recreated through magic by a paragon for example. Fire, special armor, skull faces... all of it currently possible to recreate by any skilled human. Like I said, I don't think the current gods are the human creators either *maybe Dhuum and Abaddon, but not the others imo*. And yes, it is highly likely that the Gods can change their shape/size/form/etc. Razah is similar to human, but not a human, because he was created by the mists directly, not through the sentient portions. That also applies to the "once done cannot be redone" idea I brought up.


Essentially aren’t all of the rifts that are currently used previously been created by Odran ? Also if I have this correct, didn’t we use a rift to escape with Stormcaller? That seemed fairly safe to use didn’t it? All rifts not created directly by Abaddon and his demons are in fact created by Odran (only three known locations though). And we didn't escape with Stormcaller via Chaos Rift, but via a portal. I think what we see in that cinematic was the original idea of how to set up Map Travel. If you notice in the outpost you end up in, there is a platform, which I believe is also in the cinematic, and similar things are found throughout Tyria, even at some rez shrines in Kryta. I think these platforms were meant to be teleporters, but was later scrapped for simplicity.

jayson
24-09-2008, 06:32
Wrong, that is the Rift that acts as a Nexxus (or like the Central Transfer Chamber).

You're right. I was using this definition as my example


A spatial rift looks like a tear in the fabric of space, but in actuality represents no damage; it merely evidences a place where two locations meet across a compressed distance

So the "rift" would be the door and the Mists would be the room connected to the door. Anet just reversed it.


Either, he was created by Abaddon specifically, or the Mists. All demons are created by the Mists, each with different amount of powers and different shapes. Razah was made with a humanoid shape. Keep in mind, he was originally designed to be the strongest hero (able to change primary professions).

So would you call Razah a demon or something else? And even if he was designed to be the strongest hero he would still fall under the limitations of humanoids. Regardless of his original ability of becoming any class, he was still limited to a dual class system. Not exaclty the all powerful creation he was supposed to be imo.


I think, that the current gods were not the original gods, and that they fear being supplanted by evil. To prevent evil from getting the upper hand is a good enough reason to prevent some knowledge (like how to become a god) from getting out.

Being supplanted by evil is correct. And none more evil then the humans who covet the very power they wield. The more I read about humans, the more I see them as the true evil in Tyria.


Splitting up magic was more of a preservation of the species, who would have continuously killed each other for power (eventually maybe working their way to the gods).

My point exactly. The end result in my theory was that with full magic power, humans would easily rival the Gods who imo are nothing more then humans who've tapped into the mists.



Wouldn't you want to live with your children? Being creations would be the same as being children to some people, especially when the creation is sentient. Kormir is actuallly the Goddes of Truth and Knowledge, not secrets. :wink: Also, remember that Abaddon was weakened, so the other gods would be much more powerful then how strong Abaddon was when we fought him.

Nothing in GW has ever struck me as kindness from the Gods. They have imo continually manipulated humanity to do their bidding. They've had us kill the Lich, destroy Shiro and finally clean up the mess they left with Abaddon. They hide themselves from us and only contact us when it suits them. None of that seems to promote a "loving parent" lol.


This is an interesting point to bring up, I believe that it is more along the lines of "once done, cannot be redone." Meaning that anything directly created from the mists are only copies by chance. And if you bring up torment demons, I'll just bring up game mechanics and simplicity.

See I feel that's too convenient an answer. Once done would imply one God. But six? And then the ability to create an entire race that's smarter then the mists own creations? Something fishy there.


Like I said, I don't think the current gods are the human creators either *maybe Dhuum and Abaddon, but not the others imo*. And yes, it is highly likely that the Gods can change their shape/size/form/etc. Razah is similar to human, but not a human, because he was created by the mists directly, not through the sentient portions. That also applies to the "once done cannot be redone" idea I brought up.

It's my theory that all of them were once human and in the case of Dhuum and his like at least humanoid. I believe that the saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutley" applies here. We can use Grenth supplanting Dhuum and Kormir supplanting Abaddon. In the case of Kormir it was different because the power had to go somewhere and the gods chose kormir because they could trust her. Better her then another who wouldn't be in agreement with the five. You'd have the same abaddon situation all over again. As far as I'm concerned, she's no better then the rest of the current gods now.


All rifts not created directly by Abaddon and his demons are in fact created by Odran (only three known locations though). And we didn't escape with Stormcaller via Chaos Rift, but via a portal. I think what we see in that cinematic was the original idea of how to set up Map Travel. If you notice in the outpost you end up in, there is a platform, which I believe is also in the cinematic, and similar things are found throughout Tyria, even at some rez shrines in Kryta. I think these platforms were meant to be teleporters, but was later scrapped for simplicity.

Sounds reasonable.

Arkhan The Black
24-09-2008, 10:56
I have been wondering myself if the gods where once mortal but they somehow absorbed the raw awesome energy of the Dragons and then became a part of the mist. I have also been wondering if it was because Abaddon decided to drain the magic from the dragons that he gave magic to Tyria. The other gods would probably object to it because they knew how dangerous tampering with the Dragons could be.

They might have realised because of Abaddons folly the dragons where slowly waking up so they left Tyria in a hurry after settling things with Abaddon.

Noname Otakugami
24-09-2008, 16:53
I agree that the current gods were once mortals, but not human. Grenth, Abaddon, Dwayna, and Melandru show humanistic characteristics, but don't show themselves to be humans. Melandru and Dwayna are angelic. Grenth is, well hard to say (one mural shows him with wings so... Angel of Death? All we know is that he wears a skull). Abaddon was demonic (the physical entity we saw was very much like a Jade Armor, but i doubt a connection). Balthazar seems to be Human and Lyssa is a mystery. Lyssa seems to be siamese twins in some murals, one entity with multiple faces in others, so hard to tell. I highly doubt they became gods via finding treasure. Grenth killed Dhuum, Kormir "killed" Abaddon, Abaddon killed one or two other gods (I suspect one to be Arachnia), others are of unknown origins.

Hm... so Kormir can be shiny golden, but Dwayna can't sprout wings...? Tsks...
In all mythologies, many gods can change shapes, and we have seen many different representations for each god.
They could also simply 'wear' clothing that make them look like having wings on the back or a skull instead of head.

Just look at the margonites. All of them were once human. Some have wings, some tentacles. What are they now? The mists turned them into what they are. Same goes for gods. Things can change.

Kormir was not shiny golden before being imbued with the power of Truth and Secrets.

We know the shapes of avatars summoned at the statues, the Dervish avatar forms, the murals, the statues, other Artwork...
They have 'guidelines' but they do not always look the same.
And you must remember that what people pait is not always whet people really see. Jessu had no halo over his head, that was added by the artists.

We know that the power of a god and the god itself can be separated, and the power of the god can affect the host and change it.

We also know that each god usually takes creatures and change them to be their servants.

Balthazar uses souls of ancient heroes (and not only Human heroes), and they become the Eternals, a kind of Ghosts.
Melandru did the same with the Druids, Spirits that once were humans.
Abaddon did the same with the Margonites, turning those that were once Humans into Demons. And he also uses torment creatures, which are demons created from the Mists.

Grenth uses Reapers, which are Ghosts, but they could have been anything before.
We don't know anything about Lyssa's servants, other than her Avatars the Muse.
And Dwayna uses Angels. We don't know what exactly angels are, or what do they look like, other than the supposition that Avatar of Dwayna could be an angel, since she has wings.
Angels could be like demons, created from or by interaction with the mists. (In many cultures demons are made out of the same thing like angels, just with 'opposite' polarity) but since we have never seen any, we can't tell.

For the latter three, they could have been once humans or not. We don't know enough about them.

What is sure, is that Gods NEVER look like their servants. They may look like the Avatar Forms, like the murals, like the Statues, but not like the servants. The servants are just messengers.
So there's nothing supporting Dwayna being an angel. She could be or could not be an angel. She could just wear wing-like chaos equipment. Or something like the Avatar Froms wears.

Even Kormir could be no longer like her Avatar looks like. Now she's something different. And her old body could have been destroyed, and her memories about it used as a template for her Avatar.
She could even change more once the sealed power of Abaddon is fully released and the real of Torment goes back to its place.
This is something we'll only see in GW2, if we get to see her again.

Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.
When the original Abaddon gained his power, he got connected to the real of Torment, (as we can see parts of his 'body' all over the place, like the tendrils or those bone-like things)
If that were like that, once defeated, his body would collapse and be destroyed, the power released contained in Kormir.
But like there are ashes when a fire is extinguished, there could be 'remnants' of what he once was, and those remnants would be the trigger for Razah's creation. Like when you put a sand grain inside an oyster and a pearl appears there, what was left of Abadon's humanity became the little grain of sand that triggered the gathering of the Mist that formed Razah.
What is sure is that Razah looks like a human because the interaction of the Mists with humans, being it the player, other humans, the original Human Abaddon or the remnants of Abaddon.
What is sure is that Razah is not human, though, he only looks like one.

Akirai Annuvil
24-09-2008, 19:13
I'm no Loregeek. Most of this went over my head.

So, I’ve come to the conclusion that magic is just a form of the Mists being manipulated, but souls happen to be a key energy source for Margonites, Demons, Mursaat, and perhaps even the Gods themselves. Magic is also a central energy source. The end conclusion then must be that souls contain certain parts of the Mists, that, when in a large supply, are a morbid and dark form of energy that is only used by the vilest creatures or by creatures that have no other choice but to use them for sustenance.
Or that the Mist is made up of souls.
Or that there are different types of magic, some controlled by the soul and some by the Mist.

Afaik, the Mist's only purpose and sole magical power is creation. (Ironically, it seems to mostly create things intend on destruction). It stands to reason it isn't capable of subverting itself. That'd imply that disruptive magic doesn't have its source in the Mists.

If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did Echovald Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion?

If the Mist only has creation magic, how can the Bloodstones hold destructive magic, unless it's from a different source?

The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?

Just to mention a few things which don't appear consistent.

Konig Des Todes
24-09-2008, 23:21
So would you call Razah a demon or something else? And even if he was designed to be the strongest hero he would still fall under the limitations of humanoids. Regardless of his original ability of becoming any class, he was still limited to a dual class system. Not exaclty the all powerful creation he was supposed to be imo. I would call Razah a demon (iirc, he also takes damage from EoE when a demon dies, I'm not sure though). This limitation you mention is due to the game mechanics. Although it would be sweet if he, like he should be able to, could use all 10 profession skills as he sees fit (along with having a much higher attribute setting), it won't work with game mechanics (or could, but would be too overpowered to have as a hero). The whole dual profession and 200 attribute points (or really 160 attribute points) are both causes of the Bloodstones (in lore standards, I believe). Without the Bloodstones, we'd basically be infinite levels, infinite attribute points, and all 10 professions at once.


Being supplanted by evil is correct. And none more evil then the humans who covet the very power they wield. The more I read about humans, the more I see them as the true evil in Tyria. I wouldn't say true evil. I'd call humans as the "anti-heroes" of the GW universe. They have bad morals and are, as a whole, not the best thing to happen to Tyria, but they still fight true evil (aka Abaddon/Dhuum/Menzies and your basic slaughterers and marauders).


My point exactly. The end result in my theory was that with full magic power, humans would easily rival the Gods who imo are nothing more then humans who've tapped into the mists. But that's not my point. The bloodstone's creation was done to save humans from themselves just as much as to save the Tengu, Dwarves, Charr, etc. etc. Not done to save the god's own hides.


Nothing in GW has ever struck me as kindness from the Gods. They have imo continually manipulated humanity to do their bidding. They've had us kill the Lich, destroy Shiro and finally clean up the mess they left with Abaddon. They hide themselves from us and only contact us when it suits them. None of that seems to promote a "loving parent" lol. Lich: He wanted global domination (and it was Glint, not the gods, who told us to kill him), he would have killed thousands, not just humans but any race. Shiro: He wanted to wreak havoc on the world, not just for humans, but all races. Abaddon: He wanted revenge on the gods, first thing on his agenda was to take over Tyria.

We killed them more as a favor to the gods, not an order from them. When a child grows up, the last thing a parent should do is to make sure they can take care of themselves. This is done in GW2, and very little contact seems to be made between GW1 and GW2 (according to the wording of the Movement of the World).


See I feel that's too convenient an answer. Once done would imply one God. But six? And then the ability to create an entire race that's smarter then the mists own creations? Something fishy there. I don't get what you're getting at with the six. I don't see how you get "once done would imply one God" either... once done by the Mists (not done by the gods in other words) the Mists either cannot or will not (depending on how smart the non-god portions of the Mists is) create others that are exactly the same (even no two humans are exactly the same, even identical twins have some differences)

And if the Gods are more intelligent then the seemingly mindless entity called the Mists (honestly, am I the only one that thinks of the Mists as a little child creating random things and watching how things turn out?), they would be able to create things with more intelligence then what the Mists creates. If you say Razah is as intelligent as humans, and if he was created by the Mists and not Abaddon, I will have to say, he is only more intelligent in the concept of being able to understand things. Basically, Razah is a unbiased humanoid.


It's my theory that all of them were once human and in the case of Dhuum and his like at least humanoid. Dhuum is believed to be insectoid because of a majority of his followers seem to have insect-like features (although, I personally think those followers were once followers of Arachnia, and moved to follow Abaddon/Dhuum afterwards).


I have been wondering myself if the gods where once mortal but they somehow absorbed the raw awesome energy of the Dragons and then became a part of the mist. I have also been wondering if it was because Abaddon decided to drain the magic from the dragons that he gave magic to Tyria. The other gods would probably object to it because they knew how dangerous tampering with the Dragons could be.

They might have realised because of Abaddons folly the dragons where slowly waking up so they left Tyria in a hurry after settling things with Abaddon. Reasonable, but unlikely. First, how could absorbing energy from the Ancient Dragons cause a connection with the Mists? Second, if they realized that the Ancient Dragons were waking up (very slowly, about 1300 years), then why would they simply leave instead of trying to prevent the waking of the Ancient Dragons, or warn the current inhabitance of Tyria about the Ancient Dragons so that they can be prepared.


-snip points on God's True Forms- What I was going for here actually, would be Melandru with wings (why would the goddess of nature and earth want wings? Makes sense for Dwayna, but not so much for Melandru). Yes, they could change their shapes, but of all the murals we have of them, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, some show their true form?

I know it is not known that those are their true forms, they probably always showed up as human characteristics. I get that, but my main point in what you quoted was that it is not known if the True Gods were all originally human, and if not all were, Balthazar and Kormir are the most likely to be the only humans. I never said "Dwayna, Melandru, and Grenth are angels" etc. etc. as facts, but as possibilities.


What is sure, is that Gods NEVER look like their servants. They may look like the Avatar Forms, like the murals, like the Statues, but not like the servants. The servants are just messengers.
So there's nothing supporting Dwayna being an angel. She could be or could not be an angel. She could just wear wing-like chaos equipment. Or something like the Avatar Froms wears. This I agree with and disagree with. God don't look like their servants, this is true, but followers look like their gods. If the servants were changed, they were changed to take on characteristics of their god. (Reapers becoming grim reaper-like, Druids becoming one with nature, Margonites gaining six eyes and become semi-corporeal). Followers that are not changed (such as the Priests of Balthazar, Necromancers, etc.) try to make things (i.e. clothing, armor) to help them look like their god (Necromancers, for instance, have a lot of skulls on some of their armors and have "dark" armor).

And, you say that we have Murals, statues, etc. that the Gods may look like, then say that we have nothing that says Dwayna is an angel. Look at her statue, all of her murals, her avatar, her dervish avatar. Every one shows Dwayna as angelic.


Even Kormir could be no longer like her Avatar looks like. Now she's something different. And her old body could have been destroyed, and her memories about it used as a template for her Avatar.
She could even change more once the sealed power of Abaddon is fully released and the real of Torment goes back to its place.
This is something we'll only see in GW2, if we get to see her again. By what you said right there, means that the Avatars form to look like how the Gods once looked. This would mean: Grenth was a reaper-like creature, Balthazar was a warrior, Dwayna was an angel, Melandru was a druid, Lyssa was a floating head. Just by your comment, this is what you implied. Again, goes against what you said.


Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.
When the original Abaddon gained his power, he got connected to the real of Torment, (as we can see parts of his 'body' all over the place, like the tendrils or those bone-like things)
If that were like that, once defeated, his body would collapse and be destroyed, the power released contained in Kormir.
But like there are ashes when a fire is extinguished, there could be 'remnants' of what he once was, and those remnants would be the trigger for Razah's creation. Like when you put a sand grain inside an oyster and a pearl appears there, what was left of Abadon's humanity became the little grain of sand that triggered the gathering of the Mist that formed Razah.
What is sure is that Razah looks like a human because the interaction of the Mists with humans, being it the player, other humans, the original Human Abaddon or the remnants of Abaddon.
What is sure is that Razah is not human, though, he only looks like one. The tendrils were formed by Abaddon's Mind. He changes the Realm of Torment with his dreams, so he made them as horrific as possible, so that once he finish dreaming them, and they get replaced with the real versions (from Tyria and other worlds), Tyria would be torment.

Razah's creation and "template" was probably caused by the heroes coming into the Realm of Torment (of one of the many many human ghosts there). I'd have to say it's more likely for it to be one of the ghosts (by some of his armor designs, probably some of it off of Shiro and other Canthans) because Razah was imprisoned, if his creation happened after Abaddon's fall, why would he be imprisoned? There would be no mind to tell the demons to imprison Razah, except for Mallyx, and how do we know he knew of Razah?


If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did the Jade Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion? Error, Error. Echovald Forest, Jade Sea. You are mixing the two. Leon explained this, but in other terms, The power was intensified via the Jade Sea, and on Shiro's death, it turned into the Jade Wind. In other words, the water conducted the magic, his death let it loose, making an effect like a HUGE Death Nova.


The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?The Rift is far from everywhere. The Rift is at the center of the universe. It can connect to anywhere, but is not everywhere. And The Rift =/= The Mists, two different things.

Gmr Leon
24-09-2008, 23:52
My apologies for not responding yesterday, not only was I rather out of it, but by the time the discussion became a bit more interesting I was about to fall over dead from being tired.

Now my thoughts will hopefully be clear and I'll be able to convey them in such a manner.


Or that the Mist is made up of souls.
Or that there are different types of magic, some controlled by the soul and some by the Mist.

Afaik, the Mist's only purpose and sole magical power is creation. (Ironically, it seems to mostly create things intend on destruction). It stands to reason it isn't capable of subverting itself. That'd imply that disruptive magic doesn't have its source in the Mists.

Well, a point made earlier in the thread by Azazel was that the body or soul could possibly be a chunk of the Mists. Expanding on that with my idea that magic is simply the manipulation of the Mists, that chunk would be what allowed them the ability to manipulate. Highly skilled mages would have a larger chunk of the Mists making up their soul, or possibly just long years of training in how to connect the chunk to the whole allowing easier manipulation.

Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists.

As to the latter part of your quoted response..Well, I've sort of already responded to it. It isn't so much as magical, from my perspective, as it is a natural attribute. Where things are created could be considered where the Mists converge and coalesce, basically a more concentrated area that plops out a new creature. I hope this response makes sense, in regards to creation and the souls thing, and how from my perspective it isn't really subverting itself. Instead, you could simply say that it happens to be the creations or results of the Mists, that subvert it for destructive means. Which is pretty much what you said.


If water conducts 'Mistmagic', then why did the Jade Forest, a mostly earthen environment, still become completely petrified? If winds conducts that magic (like the Jade Wind would imply) why didn't the other ex/implosions of magic get conducted in a similar fashion?

I'm glad you caught this. For some reason, no one I can remember at the moment has. This has posed a major stumbling block for me, especially in my Magical Conductivity theory. If I were to explain it, I would explain it in a similar manner to the Cataclysm's effect on the Tarnished Coast. The Tarnished Coast was, quite literally, a sponge for the magical energies from the Cataclysm. This is actually stated in, I'm fairly certain, the Eye of the North Manuscripts (if you can call them that).

So in the same way that the Tarnished Coast soaked up the Cataclysm's magical energies, so did the Echovald Forest soak up the magical energies that were conducted from the Jade Sea.

In a more scientific way, I would say that the vacuoles of the plant cells of the trees conducted the magic, but that, while scientific, would then lead to why they aren't jade instead..


If the Mist only has creation magic, how can the Bloodstones hold destructive magic, unless it's from a different source?

Well, like I said, magic is, at least to me, the manipulation of the Mists. I think that the Bloodstones, as I've said earlier, are like a dam, keeping the Mists from being in complete contact with Tyria. Or at the very least a dam that filters what's let through, filtering out the more powerful aspects of magic.

I think, that at the time before the Bloodstones, most things were the same. Creatures' souls contained chunks of the Mists, they still had to manipulate it, and everything. However, with the Mists being in direct contact with Tyria, the uplink was far too easy to make, allowing them to tap into some of the most destructive manipulations of the Mists. That's why mages then found it so easy to abuse magic, in my opinion.


The Rift is part and parcel of the Mists. It is also everywhere at once. If the Rift is everywhere, or can be everywhere, why would it be bad if the rest of the Mists gained access to Tyria? What's the use of the Barriers?

You kind of lose me here. The Mists are everywhere, the Rift is at the center of the Mists, and connects everything. Or, at least, connections can be made from within it to anywhere depending on your interpretation.

...I really need to go back and modify my original post a bit with some of these examples I'm coming up with. They really help to convey my ideas clearly.


We know that the power of a god and the god itself can be separated, and the power of the god can affect the host and change it.

It's certain that the power can affect the host, and obviously by affecting the host, change it. And you're right that the power of a God and the God itself can be separated.

I think this actually supports my idea that Gods are actually just more concentrated, sentient parts of the Mists. The forms we see, containers of this power.


I'm sure you'll call me crazy when I say this.
But since I knew that the power of a god can be transfered, I stater to think that the current gods were once humans.
So, the power of the gods exists even without gods, but can be controlled by a creature that contains the power, by turning into a god.


Another theory of mine supporting that Abaddon was once a human too, is what is found in The Heart of Abaddon: Razah.


My point exactly. The end result in my theory was that with full magic power, humans would easily rival the Gods who imo are nothing more then humans who've tapped into the mists.


It's my theory that all of them were once human and in the case of Dhuum and his like at least humanoid. I believe that the saying "Absolute power corrupts absolutley" applies here. We can use Grenth supplanting Dhuum and Kormir supplanting Abaddon. In the case of Kormir it was different because the power had to go somewhere and the gods chose kormir because they could trust her. Better her then another who wouldn't be in agreement with the five. You'd have the same abaddon situation all over again. As far as I'm concerned, she's no better then the rest of the current gods now.

I'm simply going to address these posts all at once, with a simple, but I think, to the point, statement. The current Gods may have been humans from another world, this is entirely possible. My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods. They were formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, containing larger chunks in their souls, or perhaps even their entire soul was a chunk of the Mists. Which is what allows them to so easily manipulate the Mists because they're able to uplink with it at ease.

I do not think that even the Gods could begin to give their own creations the same power they have, power rivaling it, perhaps, but their actual power? It's a possibility, how probable it is, can be debated over and over.


I have been wondering myself if the gods where once mortal but they somehow absorbed the raw awesome energy of the Dragons and then became a part of the mist. I have also been wondering if it was because Abaddon decided to drain the magic from the dragons that he gave magic to Tyria. The other gods would probably object to it because they knew how dangerous tampering with the Dragons could be.

They might have realised because of Abaddons folly the dragons where slowly waking up so they left Tyria in a hurry after settling things with Abaddon.

I highly doubt this to be the case, and I think my response has already explained in other parts why.


Ok so this part confuses me a little. The gods are a part of the Mists, but are or aren’t in control of it? Razah was created by the Mists or the gods? If he was created by the gods then it would make sense why he would only have basic humanoid limits. If in fact he was created by the Mists, then why was Razah not created as powerful as the gods?

Yeah, sorry about that part, I really wasn't all that clear. I believe they hold dominance over certain manipulations of the Mists. Like Balthazar holds dominance over the area of fire, Dwayna wind and life, Grenth cold and death, Melandru earth and nature, Lyssa energy and illusion, and Kormir's just the odd one with truth.

Actually, scrap that. Just scrap it all. My thoughts on this are displayed in the following:

My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods. They were formed by concentrated areas of the Mists, containing larger chunks in their souls, or perhaps even their entire soul was a chunk of the Mists. Which is what allows them to so easily manipulate the Mists because they're able to uplink with it at ease.

I believe they have a higher amount of control over the Mists, but not complete dominance over it.

Alright..I think..I covered everything in here that's been brought up with this response. Sorry about the length. I just want to get my thoughts out there, some slightly different now yet with the same base, in a clear manner so that it can be easily understood.

The one thing I would love in the world is knowledge being made clear and easy to understand, so I try to do that with any of my ideas or theories. Any questions, any criticisms, I try to respond to the best of my ability, in the clearest manner I'm able to devise at the time of thinking.

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 00:22
Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists. Hating to go off topic but, I just can't help but mention: With this way of putting it, I am reminded of a book series called The Dragon Nimbus (with related series The Dragon Nimbus History and The Stargods) by Irene Radford. In the books, there is a place called the Void, which is the afterlife, home of the dragons, source of magic, and it holds all the knowledge in existence. In the books, the magicians have to connect their souls to the Void (and through this can venture into the Void as well as work magic) in order to work magic, and the more experience they have, the more they can access the Void without harm (staying in the Void too long causes harm to both the soul and the body).



I'm glad you caught this. For some reason, no one I can remember at the moment has. This has posed a major stumbling block for me, especially in my Magical Conductivity theory. If I were to explain it, I would explain it in a similar manner to the Cataclysm's effect on the Tarnished Coast. The Tarnished Coast was, quite literally, a sponge for the magical energies from the Cataclysm. This is actually stated in, I'm fairly certain, the Eye of the North Manuscripts (if you can call them that).

So in the same way that the Tarnished Coast soaked up the Cataclysm's magical energies, so did the Echovald Forest soak up the magical energies that were conducted from the Jade Sea.

In a more scientific way, I would say that the vacuoles of the plant cells of the trees conducted the magic, but that, while scientific, would then lead to why they aren't jade instead.. Like I said in my above post, I always considered the affects of the Jade Wind to be similar to that of a Death Nova. A Death Nova poisons and damages all nearby enemies, so when everything is the enemy, even the land and water, it isn't to hard to think that the water and trees gets turned into stone as their version of being "poisoned." The Jade Wind was just a "Super Death Nova" how I see it, instead of poisoning, turning things to stone, wood went to granite, and sea turned to jade. Different things turned to different kinds of stone, but it is all still stone.

jayson
25-09-2008, 00:41
The whole dual profession and 200 attribute points (or really 160 attribute points) are both causes of the Bloodstones (in lore standards, I believe). Without the Bloodstones, we'd basically be infinite levels, infinite attribute points, and all 10 professions at once.


That sounds very godlike to me.


I wouldn't say true evil. I'd call humans as the "anti-heroes" of the GW universe. They have bad morals and are, as a whole, not the best thing to happen to Tyria, but they still fight true evil (aka Abaddon/Dhuum/Menzies and your basic slaughterers and marauders).

I see the point you're making. But knowing that we invaded the Charr lands doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that we're good people. Add to that the guild wars themselves and it's easy to see how warlike and destructive humanity is.

Fighting your basic slaughterers and marauders is almost always a provoked conflict. When we fight thieves and bandits in pre searing, it's our own kind. When we fight the stone summit, we're trespassing on their territory. Something we wouldn't have had to do had we not invaded the Charr homelands and been basicly driven out. We fight centaurs because we take their homelands. We fight tengu because we take their lands as well. See a pattern here?

As for Dhuum and Menzies it's basicly none of our business. It's the gods who allowed interaction with the demons/realms. It's the gods who allow humans to be pitted against each other for sport and entertainment and reward such conflicts. For that matter whether his intentions were for good or not, Abaddon created a disaster by introducing such power to humanity. It's the gods themselves that drive all the conflicts for humanity.


But that's not my point. The bloodstone's creation was done to save humans from themselves just as much as to save the Tengu, Dwarves, Charr, etc. etc. Not done to save the god's own hides.

I'm trying to look at the larger picture here. Follow me on this. We have the gods who create the bloodstones to suppress the power any race or single being can possess. Not doing so would eventually lead to destruction on a global scale. This much I'm sure we can agree upon. We see the level of destruction that can be achieved through the searing. Now the gods obviously saw this happening and did nothing to prevent it even though they were the ones who created this conflict to begin with. At no point is there a healing of the land or any type of retribution from the gods even knowing Abaddon was at work here. Now why this type of attack was never used again is not known. My guess is that magic on that scale can't be used by any non god without the aid of a god themselves. Such a safeguard would be smart because the gods themselves could be attacked with it. Now following the idea of mortals having this kind of power, eventually nearly everyone would be wiped out. And when that happens who do you think those mortals are going to turn on next? My guess would be the ones who created these problems to begin with. Hence looking at the larger picture and the gods saving their own butt.


Lich: He wanted global domination (and it was Glint, not the gods, who told us to kill him), he would have killed thousands, not just humans but any race.

The Lich was doing this for what purpose and was being manipulated by whom though? And as for Glint, who do you think is controlling her? If the gods created her and Glint knows of the Prophecies, wouldn't it be a safe bet that the gods know of it as well?


Shiro: He wanted to wreak havoc on the world, not just for humans, but all races.

Under who's direction?


Abaddon: He wanted revenge on the gods, first thing on his agenda was to take over Tyria.We killed them more as a favor to the gods, not an order from them.

That's right all of this was Abaddons doing. And Abaddons wasn't really our problem. You can say we were doing the gods a favour but I believe that's too "nice" a way of putting it. We were manipulated into doing everything. There was never a choice. It was "Do it or all of humanity will die". But not because of humantiy. It was because the gods messed up. And they expect us to clean it up? Doesn't sound like a god to me.


When a child grows up, the last thing a parent should do is to make sure they can take care of themselves. This is done in GW2, and very little contact seems to be made between GW1 and GW2 (according to the wording of the Movement of the World).

Take care of themselves yes, but would you ask your child to fix the mistakes you've created? All I see here is bumbling from a group of immortals who either can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I feel the Charr got it right when they stated "No more gods."


I don't get what you're getting at with the six. I don't see how you get "once done would imply one God" either... once done by the Mists (not done by the gods in other words) the Mists either cannot or will not (depending on how smart the non-god portions of the Mists is) create others that are exactly the same (even no two humans are exactly the same, even identical twins have some differences)

For the mists to have "created" the gods in the literal sense, would imply to me a very high degree of intelligence. You wouldn't just decide to create 5 or six gods before first testing out how it works. Then revising and refining. Seeing as how the gods are imo failures. Why would the mists create more then one? This is why I feel the mists are not sentient and are nothing more then an energy source to be tapped into. It would be easier for me to believe that the mists allow for creation under the guidance of an intelligent individual. A human for instance with near unlimited resources such as the power of the mists could become a god.


And if the Gods are more intelligent then the seemingly mindless entity called the Mists (honestly, am I the only one that thinks of the Mists as a little child creating random things and watching how things turn out?), they would be able to create things with more intelligence then what the Mists creates.

Well seeing as I believe the mist have zero intelligence I would disagree with your theory yes.


If you say Razah is as intelligent as humans, and if he was created by the Mists and not Abaddon, I will have to say, he is only more intelligent in the concept of being able to understand things. Basically, Razah is a unbiased humanoid.

Razah is intelligent yes. But imo he is lacking in a lot of what humanity is. His understanding of what drives a human, his lack of understandnig of pain and his interaction according to his phrases are very basic. So he knows how to do what he does... but does not know what humantiy is. And that's a failing of the mists themselves. And you have to bear in mind that if Razah has such a limited understandnig, it goes against the intelligence of the supposed creation of the gods before Razah. Essentially Razah would be a step backwards in creation. Why would he be any less in intelligence if the gods and other creations before him are smarter and understand more?


Dhuum is believed to be insectoid because of a majority of his followers seem to have insect-like features (although, I personally think those followers were once followers of Arachnia, and moved to follow Abaddon/Dhuum afterwards).

Can't comment on this. You'd know better then I. :wink:

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 01:15
That sounds very godlike to me. Nah, godlike would be no profession, our own skills, infinite attribute points from lvl 1 (not 5 attribute points from each level gained), and incredibly high armor.


I see the point you're making. But knowing that we invaded the Charr lands doesn't exactly inspire me to believe that we're good people. Add to that the guild wars themselves and it's easy to see how warlike and destructive humanity is.

Fighting your basic slaughterers and marauders is almost always a provoked conflict. When we fight thieves and bandits in pre searing, it's our own kind. When we fight the stone summit, we're trespassing on their territory. Something we wouldn't have had to do had we not invaded the Charr homelands and been basicly driven out. We fight centaurs because we take their homelands. We fight tengu because we take their lands as well. See a pattern here?

As for Dhuum and Menzies it's basicly none of our business. It's the gods who allowed interaction with the demons/realms. It's the gods who allow humans to be pitted against each other for sport and entertainment and reward such conflicts. For that matter whether his intentions were for good or not, Abaddon created a disaster by introducing such power to humanity. It's the gods themselves that drive all the conflicts for humanity.1) Humans are greedy, they want things. Power, Land, Wealth. The list goes on. But does that mean humans are evil? I say no, it means we are fallible. There are humans that are evil, yes, but not as a whole.

The thing with Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies becomes our problem because those three (mainly Abaddon) makes it our problem. It is still the God's problem, but we offer our service (and we even gotta pay for that) to help with things that are not out problem.

But this is all getting off topic, this belongs in some "Humans are Evil in GW" thread.


Now the gods obviously saw this happening and did nothing to prevent it even though they were the ones who created this conflict to begin with.As far as we know, the gods are not omnipotent beings (I think I'm using the right term, that is, all knowing).


At no point is there a healing of the land or any type of retribution from the gods even knowing Abaddon was at work here. There is a healing of the land, natural healing. Perhaps the gods think things done without magic is better. Physical strength over fake strength, make people rely on themselves and not others. That right there would be strengthening them, which kind of goes against your theory (why strengthen those who would kill you? Especially if you knew they would.)


Now why this type of attack was never used again is not known. My guess is that magic on that scale can't be used by any non god without the aid of a god themselves. Such a safeguard would be smart because the gods themselves could be attacked with it. Now following the idea of mortals having this kind of power, eventually nearly everyone would be wiped out. And when that happens who do you think those mortals are going to turn on next? My guess would be the ones who created these problems to begin with. Hence looking at the larger picture and the gods saving their own butt. As said in the Ecology of the Charr, the Cauldron of Cataclysm was given to the Charr by the Titans and are believed to be linked to a more ancient source then the Titans. So yes, this kind of power cannot be wielded by a normal mortal, they would need the "favor" of a god.


The Lich was doing this for what purpose and was being manipulated by whom though? And as for Glint, who do you think is controlling her? If the gods created her and Glint knows of the Prophecies, wouldn't it be a safe bet that the gods know of it as well? He was doing so for his own gain, corrupted but not ordered by Abaddon. We have no evidence that he was following any orders, he was just going with the Flameseeker Prophecies (not even sure if they were completely true as well it seems). Not really a safe bet that the gods know of it as well. And even if it did, there is nothing that we know of that links the Prophecies' events to Abaddon from the actual prophecies (the Titans *or the Foundry of Failed Creations* is only referred to as "the Flame" until the titans are actually released).


Under who's direction? Shiro under his own, after being corrupted by Abaddon. Us under the Envoy's/Kuunavang's, not directly the Gods.


That's right all of this was Abaddons doing. And Abaddons wasn't really our problem. You can say we were doing the gods a favour but I believe that's too "nice" a way of putting it. We were manipulated into doing everything. There was never a choice. It was "Do it or all of humanity will die". But not because of humantiy. It was because the gods messed up. And they expect us to clean it up? Doesn't sound like a god to me. You see, he was our problem, since he became a problem. He gave the Tyrians something that could cause self-destruction, he tried to take over the world *in a sense*. Those sound like our problems. This part was not a service to the gods. Helping Grenth with the Underworld and Balthazar with the Fissure of Woe was service, killing Abaddon was done so that we can be in peace.

Also, there is the idea that gods cannot kill another god (self-proposed law that Abaddon might have ignored).


Take care of themselves yes, but would you ask your child to fix the mistakes you've created? All I see here is bumbling from a group of immortals who either can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I feel the Charr got it right when they stated "No more gods." basically answered that above.


For the mists to have "created" the gods in the literal sense, would imply to me a very high degree of intelligence. You wouldn't just decide to create 5 or six gods before first testing out how it works. Then revising and refining. Seeing as how the gods are imo failures. Why would the mists create more then one? This is why I feel the mists are not sentient and are nothing more then an energy source to be tapped into. It would be easier for me to believe that the mists allow for creation under the guidance of an intelligent individual. A human for instance with near unlimited resources such as the power of the mists could become a god. Like I said, the mists sound to be like a child. Little intelligence, and little care. If a failure is entertaining, why not make more of them? But, the gods are failures in your opinion. And like what me and Leon said, the current gods are most likely not the original gods.


Well seeing as I believe the mist have zero intelligence I would disagree with your theory yes. You first agreed, to a degree, then you said you disagree. If the gods were smarter then the Mists, and the Mists created the gods, why can't the Mists create other things that are more intelligent then the Mists. If the Mists have zero intelligence, then everything created would be smarter then the Mists, and at least one thing had to be created by the Mists without being created by an influence of something else.


Razah is intelligent yes. But imo he is lacking in a lot of what humanity is. His understanding of what drives a human, his lack of understandnig of pain and his interaction according to his phrases are very basic. So he knows how to do what he does... but does not know what humantiy is. And that's a failing of the mists themselves. And you have to bear in mind that if Razah has such a limited understandnig, it goes against the intelligence of the supposed creation of the gods before Razah. Essentially Razah would be a step backwards in creation. Why would he be any less in intelligence if the gods and other creations before him are smarter and understand more?1. Razah is like a clean slate. He has a body, he has reflexes, he knows what to do physically, but mentally, he's no smarter then a 2 year old. He needs to learn.

2. The amount of intelligence in anything is based on what they learn. When the Gods were first created, how do we know they were not like Razah is now? They could have been clean slates too, and they learned in one of two ways of learning (the two ways of learning being from observation and from experience). They learned through experience if they were like Razah is now. Maybe humanity was a mistake in this? Maybe not. Hard to tell until ANet gives an official origin on the gods (or the first gods at least).

Going with what I said lastly, anything of the Mists could come out as a clean slate, with 0 intelligence, but with the ability to learn. Everything from the first god, to the first human. Humans start learning from the second they are born (rather slowly at first, and most forget their first 3 years after a while). So what is stopping the Gods from being created by the Mists, but gaining intelligence? Humans may be evil (I still consider the whole as an "anti-hero race"), they may be because the gods made a mistake in our creation. And the gods are fallible, that is known.

In Short:
I think the biggest problem with your line of thinking, and the GW gods, is that you are comparing them to the "perfect" gods from the Abrahamic religions, instead of comparing them to ancient polytheistic religions (like egyptian mythology, or greek mythology). In monotheistic religions, and some other current day religions, the God(s) is/are perfect in every way, infallible. The ancient religions' gods were fallible, just as the GW gods are.

I'm gonna have to start making shorter responses, re-reading these latest responses are getting annoying.

Gmr Leon
25-09-2008, 01:25
I think both of you are making a mistake in applying sentience or consciousness to the Mists. To me, they are a natural force, coalescing and converging by chance, forming creatures without any intent, and simply doing so as a part of existence. There is no rule or reason to why, they just do.

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 01:29
I was not really applying sentience to the Mists, I can understand how jayson got there (how can something with no intelligence create something with intelligence). The only intelligence I linked to the Mists was that, it reminds me of a child that's wanting to have fun in watching things. Never said it had the mind of a child.

Gmr Leon
25-09-2008, 01:35
Ah, well, that description gave me the impression you were applying some degree of sentience and intelligence to the Mists.

jayson
25-09-2008, 03:39
Nah, godlike would be no profession, our own skills, infinite attribute points from lvl 1 (not 5 attribute points from each level gained), and incredibly high armor.

Well an infinite supply of magic to any current profession would indeed put a player on or near godlike status. Even though Abaddon was weakened we still had a fighting chance against him with the current limitations we possess.



1) Humans are greedy, they want things. Power, Land, Wealth. The list goes on. But does that mean humans are evil? I say no, it means we are fallible. There are humans that are evil, yes, but not as a whole.

Yes I can agree with this assessment. Desire isn't evil. Intent isn't evil. Greed isn't actually evil. It's if and how you carry out your desire and intentions that lead to evil.


The thing with Abaddon, Dhuum, and Menzies becomes our problem because those three (mainly Abaddon) makes it our problem. It is still the God's problem, but we offer our service (and we even gotta pay for that) to help with things that are not out problem.

I'm not quite clear on this part. I know all of the major players here but how did we ever get involved with Dhuum and Menzies? The introduction to those two were voluntary through the UW and the FoW. I know later on through NF we start to see their influence but before that we were in fact the trespassers. You also have to admit that after we die, Grenth and Balthazar use us for their personal needs. They build armies from our dead to serve their own purposes.



But this is all getting off topic, this belongs in some "Humans are Evil in GW" thread.

It's not so much getting off topic when you look at the angle I'm speaking from. I'm talking about how the gods have directly or indirectly created endless conflict for humanity. They put us in the middle of countless species who are capable of wiping us out.


As far as we know, the gods are not omnipotent beings (I think I'm using the right term, that is, all knowing).

I can agree with this as well. But if we can agree on the fact that Glint is a creation of the gods then it's safe to assume that they would know what she knows. I feel it's also safe to assume that she's in fact being coached on what to do with humanity. If not all the time then perhaps a set of guidlines she was created to follow or to put into motion.


There is a healing of the land, natural healing. Perhaps the gods think things done without magic is better. Physical strength over fake strength, make people rely on themselves and not others. That right there would be strengthening them, which kind of goes against your theory (why strengthen those who would kill you? Especially if you knew they would.)

There's a healing of the land that is taking too long. Not only that but why is it that the shrines to the gods, that are mere feet away from some of the catastrophe, are intact and no worse for the wear? I would explain this in one of two ways. One they in fact were destroyed and the gods recreated the shrines. Two they were protected by the gods themselves from the destruction. Both which implies that the gods viewed the damage and took some form of measure to protect their own posessions. By the time the land healed it would be too late. The gods would know this. Ascalon is in ruins and it's people scattered. No rivers or lakes or any water supply for that matter is available. No crops can grow and the people would naturally starve. This isn't a situation of "what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger". This is intervention on the highest level that caused the destruction of Ascalon the likes of which there's no recovery.
Healing the land or repairing the water wouldn't be the same as the gods stepping out and wiping out the Charr. Far from it. The humans on even groud were doing well enough on their own to start. Only godlike intervention tipped the scales and it would seem to me that the playing field needed to be once again evened out.


As said in the Ecology of the Charr, the Cauldron of Cataclysm was given to the Charr by the Titans and are believed to be linked to a more ancient source then the Titans. So yes, this kind of power cannot be wielded by a normal mortal, they would need the "favor" of a god.

Which is why I feel that humanity was abandoned by the gods when it was another god that helped to wipe them out. Fallable is fine with me. But neglect? Just imo further shows that humanity is not the creation of the gods.


He was doing so for his own gain, corrupted but not ordered by Abaddon. We have no evidence that he was following any orders, he was just going with the Flameseeker Prophecies (not even sure if they were completely true as well it seems). Not really a safe bet that the gods know of it as well. And even if it did, there is nothing that we know of that links the Prophecies' events to Abaddon from the actual prophecies (the Titans *or the Foundry of Failed Creations* is only referred to as "the Flame" until the titans are actually released).

I can go along with the Lich doing what he did for his own gain. But I still can't get over the fact that the gods didn't at least know what was going on. On a regular basis we have indirect contact with them and finally in NF they decide to at least communicate with us though their avatars. As I've said before, if Glint knows, I feel that the gods know. And Glint had a heads up for 800 years.



Shiro under his own, after being corrupted by Abaddon. Us under the Envoy's/Kuunavang's, not directly the Gods.

And who would you say the envoys are connected to? Im trying to add responsibility to the chain of command here. At some point Grenth has to be more then just a guy fighting Dhuum. He's got to know what's going on to be smart enough to take care of his affairs. Knowing what's going on in his realm as well as the others would indeed be his business as well as all the other gods. Would you agree?


You see, he was our problem, since he became a problem. He gave the Tyrians something that could cause self-destruction, he tried to take over the world *in a sense*. Those sound like our problems. This part was not a service to the gods. Helping Grenth with the Underworld and Balthazar with the Fissure of Woe was service, killing Abaddon was done so that we can be in peace.

This kind of explanation I feel is like starting at step two or three in a build it yourself project. Theirs always a start and a source. The gods aren't our problem. What they did was long ago and then they left the world of mortals. The only time we have any type of contact with them is through avatars in shrines and when we intrude into their realms. Other then that their business isn't ours... at least it hasn't been since the fall of Abaddon. And even then it was Abaddon who created that problem as well.



Also, there is the idea that gods cannot kill another god (self-proposed law that Abaddon might have ignored).

Is this a lore fact or a theory? I've personally never heard of this.


Like I said, the mists sound to be like a child. Little intelligence, and little care. If a failure is entertaining, why not make more of them? But, the gods are failures in your opinion. And like what me and Leon said, the current gods are most likely not the original gods.


You first agreed, to a degree, then you said you disagree. If the gods were smarter then the Mists, and the Mists created the gods, why can't the Mists create other things that are more intelligent then the Mists. If the Mists have zero intelligence, then everything created would be smarter then the Mists, and at least one thing had to be created by the Mists without being created by an influence of something else.

No it's not a conflict of what I was saying. My belief is that the Mists are nothing but untapped energy,magic or whatever you prefer to call it. I feel it has zero intellince or sentience. I feel that a human or humans tapped into it's limitless energy and learned to harness it's power. My point about the Mists not being as smart as the gods who were created by it was to show what I believe is a flaw in the logic that the mists were intelligent or the creators. Even with unlimited power and resources, a child would be hard pressed to create and intelligent adult presence.


1. Razah is like a clean slate. He has a body, he has reflexes, he knows what to do physically, but mentally, he's no smarter then a 2 year old. He needs to learn.

The blank slate idea makes sense. But if the mists have this childlike sentient intelligence I still feel that Razah would be more then what he is. In short Razah is the best that the mists can do as an imitation of humanity.


2. The amount of intelligence in anything is based on what they learn. When the Gods were first created, how do we know they were not like Razah is now? They could have been clean slates too, and they learned in one of two ways of learning (the two ways of learning being from observation and from experience). They learned through experience if they were like Razah is now. Maybe humanity was a mistake in this? Maybe not. Hard to tell until ANet gives an official origin on the gods (or the first gods at least).

It's hard to learn about humanity when there wasn't any humanity to learn from. Remember if the lore is true the gods were the creators. They would only have themselves to learn from and that would show very little when you have such power. They wouldn't understand struggle or conflict. Those are more of a mortal issue.


Going with what I said lastly, anything of the Mists could come out as a clean slate, with 0 intelligence, but with the ability to learn. Everything from the first god, to the first human. Humans start learning from the second they are born (rather slowly at first, and most forget their first 3 years after a while). So what is stopping the Gods from being created by the Mists, but gaining intelligence? Humans may be evil (I still consider the whole as an "anti-hero race"), they may be because the gods made a mistake in our creation. And the gods are fallible, that is known.

That's a fair assessment. But to give a baby the power of a god? It just seems... unwise


In Short:
I think the biggest problem with your line of thinking, and the GW gods, is that you are comparing them to the "perfect" gods from the Abrahamic religions, instead of comparing them to ancient polytheistic religions (like egyptian mythology, or greek mythology). In monotheistic religions, and some other current day religions, the God(s) is/are perfect in every way, infallible. The ancient religions' gods were fallible, just as the GW gods are.

Not at all. Being Catholic my understanding of my religion is okay at least. We have a god that is all knowing and all loving yet through history is all about punishment and repentance. He's a god that doesn't condone violence or murder but people do it anyway and all they have to do is to ask him for forgivness and you get to go to heavan regardless. He's nearly commited genocide of the entire human race and yet is the "good guy" He also kicked out two essentially infantile people from the garden of Eden. One of them was duped and the other didn't know anything about the apple he was about to eat. Security was quite lax there... "Hey kids don't touch that bag of candy conveniently sitting at eye level where it's easily reached and oh so tasty!" Can you see saying that to a 2 year old? And then punshing them for the rest of existence when they don't obey? lol

Back on topic lol.
I'm just saying that I feel that there are too many inconsistencies with the gods and their influence on the humans they supposedly created. They're ignorant of facts when it's convenient and they're basicly absentee parents. They supposedly plunk us down in the middle of a warzone and leave us to fend for ourselves. Then they set us off on a series of "clean up the gods messes" missions to make the world safe. Sure it's safe for us... because the gods essentially abandoned us to go to a better place. The question is now that the dragons are coming, what will the gods do?


I'm gonna have to start making shorter responses, re-reading these latest responses are getting annoying.

Yeah but it's fun. :smiley:

Gmr Leon
25-09-2008, 03:51
I like how of my two responses as of late, have only garnered a response out of Azazel. Though in one part, Jayson did respond to one of my posts, albeit indirectly.

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 04:22
I'm not quite clear on this part. I know all of the major players here but how did we ever get involved with Dhuum and Menzies? The introduction to those two were voluntary through the UW and the FoW. I know later on through NF we start to see their influence but before that we were in fact the trespassers. You also have to admit that after we die, Grenth and Balthazar use us for their personal needs. They build armies from our dead to serve their own purposes. Menzies: Attack on Hall of Heroes (we use that as an arena and his armies, combined with Dhuum and Abaddon's, slaughtered many humans). Dhuum: Attack on Shing Jea Island during the Dragon Festival 2006. As to your Grenth and Balthazar, only for heroes. Normal citizens don't get used to fight terrorwebs.



I can agree with this as well. But if we can agree on the fact that Glint is a creation of the gods then it's safe to assume that they would know what she knows. I feel it's also safe to assume that she's in fact being coached on what to do with humanity. If not all the time then perhaps a set of guidlines she was created to follow or to put into motion.I disagree with Glint being the first creation of the Gods personally. Sounds reasonable, might have been the original idea, but I think that idea got changed.


There's a healing of the land that is taking too long. Not only that but why is it that the shrines to the gods, that are mere feet away from some of the catastrophe, are intact and no worse for the wear? I would explain this in one of two ways. One they in fact were destroyed and the gods recreated the shrines. Two they were protected by the gods themselves from the destruction. Both which implies that the gods viewed the damage and took some form of measure to protect their own posessions. By the time the land healed it would be too late. The gods would know this. Ascalon is in ruins and it's people scattered. No rivers or lakes or any water supply for that matter is available. No crops can grow and the people would naturally starve. This isn't a situation of "what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger". This is intervention on the highest level that caused the destruction of Ascalon the likes of which there's no recovery.
Healing the land or repairing the water wouldn't be the same as the gods stepping out and wiping out the Charr. Far from it. The humans on even groud were doing well enough on their own to start. Only godlike intervention tipped the scales and it would seem to me that the playing field needed to be once again evened out. I think some where actually struck with the searing. Not only in post alone do we have the statues affected by favor (not so much anymore now though), but I believe the Balthazar statue in Old Ascalon is tilted, and the Lyssa statue in Eastern Frontier is around a ruined building. Also, the statue in Regent Valley no longer has the mending affect to it in post. Also, I have a third possibility. The Ascalonians rebuilt them. And to your "crops cannot grow" and "no water" 1. ash makes the best fertalizer, 2. they can collect rain.



I can go along with the Lich doing what he did for his own gain. But I still can't get over the fact that the gods didn't at least know what was going on. On a regular basis we have indirect contact with them and finally in NF they decide to at least communicate with us though their avatars. As I've said before, if Glint knows, I feel that the gods know. And Glint had a heads up for 800 years. And I still disagree.


And who would you say the envoys are connected to? Im trying to add responsibility to the chain of command here. At some point Grenth has to be more then just a guy fighting Dhuum. He's got to know what's going on to be smart enough to take care of his affairs. Knowing what's going on in his realm as well as the others would indeed be his business as well as all the other gods. Would you agree? I would agree. And I'm surprised why there was no mention of Grenth at all in the Factions storyline. Even though he would be having his hands full in a losing war with Dhuum. It was probably because of Dhuum's, apparently overwhelming, attack on Grenth that Shiro was able to do what he did.


This kind of explanation I feel is like starting at step two or three in a build it yourself project. Theirs always a start and a source. The gods aren't our problem. What they did was long ago and then they left the world of mortals. The only time we have any type of contact with them is through avatars in shrines and when we intrude into their realms. Other then that their business isn't ours... at least it hasn't been since the fall of Abaddon. And even then it was Abaddon who created that problem as well. Abaddon created the first problem, and he created the second problem. Why didn't they kill Abaddon before? Because they couldn't. Only reason I see. 1) You need a conduit for the power and 2) They probably have some self-given laws that prevents the killing of a god (which would be why none of them took Abaddon's power).


Is this a lore fact or a theory? I've personally never heard of this.theory from guru.


No it's not a conflict of what I was saying. My belief is that the Mists are nothing but untapped energy,magic or whatever you prefer to call it. I feel it has zero intellince or sentience. I feel that a human or humans tapped into it's limitless energy and learned to harness it's power. My point about the Mists not being as smart as the gods who were created by it was to show what I believe is a flaw in the logic that the mists were intelligent or the creators. Even with unlimited power and resources, a child would be hard pressed to create and intelligent adult presence.



The blank slate idea makes sense. But if the mists have this childlike sentient intelligence I still feel that Razah would be more then what he is. In short Razah is the best that the mists can do as an imitation of humanity.


That's a fair assessment. But to give a baby the power of a god? It just seems... unwise

Well, no one is saying that the Mists has intelligence. Leon said in his last post that it is a force of nature, and never said it has intelligence. I said it reminds me of a child, but I never said it has the intelligence of a child.


It's hard to learn about humanity when there wasn't any humanity to learn from. Remember if the lore is true the gods were the creators. They would only have themselves to learn from and that would show very little when you have such power. They wouldn't understand struggle or conflict. Those are more of a mortal issue.You misunderstood. In what I was saying there, the gods would learn through how their creations act. They would make something (because they could and/or out of curiosity) and they would observe. Dhuum probably observed the crueler races and learned to be injustice through them for instance. And, again, I never said the Gods (Dwayna, Abaddon, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, and Dhuum) were the original gods.


-snip rant on the abrahamic god-you basically summarized why I stopped being religious. Good Job.


Back on topic lol.
I'm just saying that I feel that there are too many inconsistencies with the gods and their influence on the humans they supposedly created. They're ignorant of facts when it's convenient and they're basicly absentee parents. They supposedly plunk us down in the middle of a warzone and leave us to fend for ourselves. Then they set us off on a series of "clean up the gods messes" missions to make the world safe. Sure it's safe for us... because the gods essentially abandoned us to go to a better place. The question is now that the dragons are coming, what will the gods do?Well, I don't know why you brought in the dragons... but ok. You also got to keep in mind that there are an unknown amount of other worlds that the six, previously five, gods have to watch as well. Then there is the Rift and their own realms. Lets say there are 12 world out there, then the Rift/realms. That's basically 3 things each to watch. That right there, would get your hands full *even gods would need a break here and there as well*. There are more then likely hundreds of worlds though, so how can you expect them to keep a close eye on every world? You cannot.


I like how of my two responses as of late, have only garnered a response out of Azazel. Though in one part, Jayson did respond to one of my posts, albeit indirectly. That is probably because he just goes to the last post, or to the first post that responds to him, and forgets to check the rest. :P

Gmr Leon
25-09-2008, 04:31
theory from guru.

It's also in several of the threads such as Is Abaddon Still Alive?, The Process of "Kormir"-ing more complex than we thought, and etc. on here. So it's a theory or thought on both sides.

jayson
25-09-2008, 04:36
Well, a point made earlier in the thread by Azazel was that the body or soul could possibly be a chunk of the Mists. Expanding on that with my idea that magic is simply the manipulation of the Mists, that chunk would be what allowed them the ability to manipulate. Highly skilled mages would have a larger chunk of the Mists making up their soul, or possibly just long years of training in how to connect the chunk to the whole allowing easier manipulation.

Simply put: Souls contain a chunk of the Mists. Mages uplink that chunk to the whole, allowing them to manipulate the Mists. Ones with years of training are more adept at uplinking and keeping the link stable, allowing for easier prolonged manipulation of the Mists.

Imo it'd be a little more accurate to say the water in our bodies is what allows us to manipulate the energy from the Mists. I don't think it's the soul of a human because I'm still not convinced that we are a creation of the Mists. I think that with extensive practice humanity learns about the connection to water and increases the powers and abilities they wield. The soul is who we are, the Mist are what we manipulate. I differentiate the two as a soul being our lifeforce and the Mist an energy source.


I'm simply going to address these posts all at once, with a simple, but I think, to the point, statement. The current Gods may have been humans from another world, this is entirely possible. My thought was reaching far back, before the current Gods, without my realizing it at first until now, to the first pantheon of Gods.

The current gods and humanity would have to be at least from somewhere other then the places they have resided in during the time of the current gods. If it wasn't the case, then humanity would never have been the invaders. We have to have come from somewhere right? And I feel that there's a lot of Tyria left unexplored imo. We may in fact just be from another part of this world. I have this feeling that the old gods were in fact the dragons and that humanity or at least some of humanity figured out a way to tap into the very power the dragons wield. Some of these humans actually rivalling the power of the dragons themselves.


I do not think that even the Gods could begin to give their own creations the same power they have, power rivaling it, perhaps, but their actual power? It's a possibility, how probable it is, can be debated over and over.

Which could potentially explain how humans are close to rivalling the power of the ancient dragons.


Yeah, sorry about that part, I really wasn't all that clear. I believe they hold dominance over certain manipulations of the Mists. Like Balthazar holds dominance over the area of fire, Dwayna wind and life, Grenth cold and death, Melandru earth and nature, Lyssa energy and illusion, and Kormir's just the odd one with truth.

They hold dominance over certain manipulation by choice or by ability would you say? If the gods have this level of power including the ability of bestowing the power over life and death, it would seem to me that only one god holding that kind of power could potentially be a threat to the others.


I believe they have a higher amount of control over the Mists, but not complete dominance over it.

That's an interesting way of putting it. I wouldn't consider myself as having dominance over my pc. But I would consider having dominance over say 3 bearded dragons. The difference being of course the dominant option representing life.

EDIT:
I actually read all of the posts I'm just horribly slow at typing lol. I have a hard enough time keeping up with a single posters conversation. Two is quite a daunting task for me.

jayson
25-09-2008, 05:25
Menzies: Attack on Hall of Heroes (we use that as an arena and his armies, combined with Dhuum and Abaddon's, slaughtered many humans). Dhuum: Attack on Shing Jea Island during the Dragon Festival 2006. As to your Grenth and Balthazar, only for heroes. Normal citizens don't get used to fight terrorwebs.

Menzies attack on the Hall of Heroes is actually out of our Juristiction. We shouldn't really be there. It's an intrusion that turned into a blood sport for the amusement of the other realms.
I see the other points you've made but again I say to go back to the source. Who's intruding on who's territory first? And secondly what's the purpose of the intrusion. And yes only heroes are used. It's the equivalent of saying that only those in the army fights wars. For all intents and purposes, anyone can become a hero.


I disagree with Glint being the first creation of the Gods personally. Sounds reasonable, might have been the original idea, but I think that idea got changed.

Well this would go against believing the lore which I'm actually glad to see I'm not the only one who chooses not to completely follow. History is written by those in power for the purpose of making themselves look better then they actually are. Although for what reason you say Glint wasn't the first creation I'm not sure. Imo the gods see the ancient dragons and attempt to copy them. It works but not on the size or power scale they hoped for. And I'm guessing that's the reason why there are so few of these newer dragons.


I think some where actually struck with the searing. Not only in post alone do we have the statues affected by favor (not so much anymore now though), but I believe the Balthazar statue in Old Ascalon is tilted, and the Lyssa statue in Eastern Frontier is around a ruined building. Also, the statue in Regent Valley no longer has the mending affect to it in post. Also, I have a third possibility. The Ascalonians rebuilt them. And to your "crops cannot grow" and "no water" 1. ash makes the best fertalizer, 2. they can collect rain.

I'd have to look into the shrines to make sure. As for the crops and the rain, it's not enough. Acsaclon is a burning wasteland. Just look at the ground in some areas and you can see the fires still burning underneath. I'm not sure if it's burning or the crust has cracked so far down that magma is rising to the surface. The other point I was making is that the crops would be burned or destroyed by the Charr. Even though they were pushed back behind the wall, they still invade regularly. A crop would be discovered and wiped out instantly. The Charr would make sure of that. The searing was a killing blow.


I would agree. And I'm surprised why there was no mention of Grenth at all in the Factions storyline. Even though he would be having his hands full in a losing war with Dhuum. It was probably because of Dhuum's, apparently overwhelming, attack on Grenth that Shiro was able to do what he did.

Well here's another thought on it. What if Grenth knew about everything going on and chose to ignore it? He knew that humanity was on the job and they'd done a decent enough job with the Lich. Shiro shouldn't be that much of a problem right? We also had the envoys protecting us as well and they actually brought us back to life once.


Abaddon created the first problem, and he created the second problem. Why didn't they kill Abaddon before? Because they couldn't. Only reason I see. 1) You need a conduit for the power and 2) They probably have some self-given laws that prevents the killing of a god (which would be why none of them took Abaddon's power).

So a god can be killed, they just don't want to soil their own hands? What other reason could there possibly be? The death of a god is the death of a god. If you consider yourself a god, then you're not going to worry about being judge, jury and executioner. Who else would be above you? Having to worry about the "rules" of killing Abaddon at this point when he would've gladly killed them, is kind of a hard theory to hold onto imo.
Not taking Abaddons power might actually be the limits in which they can reach. Thinking about it, perhaps they chose to study different facets of the Mists to gain as much knowledge as possible. Each taking a different aspect and continually working on it to a point where little more can be achieved. Perhaps at that point, no more can be stored without doing harm to oneself or the Mists themselves?


theory from guru.

Fair enough.


Well, no one is saying that the Mists has intelligence. Leon said in his last post that it is a force of nature, and never said it has intelligence. I said it reminds me of a child, but I never said it has the intelligence of a child.

Fair enough.


You misunderstood. In what I was saying there, the gods would learn through how their creations act. They would make something (because they could and/or out of curiosity) and they would observe. Dhuum probably observed the crueler races and learned to be injustice through them for instance. And, again, I never said the Gods (Dwayna, Abaddon, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, and Dhuum) were the original gods.

You're correct you didn't say that the current gods are the originals. But learning how you've described seems too convenient to me. But for now I'll accept that.



you basically summarized why I stopped being religious. Good Job.

Lol thank you.


Well, I don't know why you brought in the dragons... but ok. You also got to keep in mind that there are an unknown amount of other worlds that the six, previously five, gods have to watch as well. Then there is the Rift and their own realms. Lets say there are 12 world out there, then the Rift/realms. That's basically 3 things each to watch. That right there, would get your hands full *even gods would need a break here and there as well*. There are more then likely hundreds of worlds though, so how can you expect them to keep a close eye on every world? You cannot.

I brought in dragons because the situation is going to need serious intervention. If the gods chose to acknowledge us when only Abaddon was a threat, then how will they percieve all of these acient, god rivalling dragons waking up all over the place? Are they going to run and hide? Are they going to say "Hey humans, get the hell out while you can!" Will they even bother with us at all? As for all the worlds they have to watch. Let's be honest. How much attention would you say the really pay to humanity? They can use an endless stream of avatars to communicate with us. And they have little need to specifically hear or see us or intervene. That should be obvious considering we were the ones who fought Abaddon. Imo being one of those gods is pretty much a long self indulgent break that is for personal power gain through study of the powers you wield.


That is probably because he just goes to the last post, or to the first post that responds to him, and forgets to check the rest. :P

My apologies for being slow lol.

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 05:53
Menzies attack on the Hall of Heroes is actually out of our Juristiction. We shouldn't really be there. It's an intrusion that turned into a blood sport for the amusement of the other realms.
I see the other points you've made but again I say to go back to the source. Who's intruding on who's territory first? And secondly what's the purpose of the intrusion. And yes only heroes are used. It's the equivalent of saying that only those in the army fights wars. For all intents and purposes, anyone can become a hero. The attack on Shing Jea Island would be around the same time as the attack on the Hall of Heroes, the attack on the Underworld, and the attack on the Fissure of Woe, if my understanding of the timeline is correct. I don't believe Dhuum would attack us because we defended Grenth, he works more directly towards Grenth then to do that. I think Dhuum would have just blocked off our passage. Besides, by the dialogue, it seemed Dhuum was after the essences, not revenge.


Well this would go against believing the lore which I'm actually glad to see I'm not the only one who chooses not to completely follow. History is written by those in power for the purpose of making themselves look better then they actually are. Although for what reason you say Glint wasn't the first creation I'm not sure. Imo the gods see the ancient dragons and attempt to copy them. It works but not on the size or power scale they hoped for. And I'm guessing that's the reason why there are so few of these newer dragons. I believe that Glint is a child, or grand child or whatever, of one of the Ancient Dragons, same with Kuunavang. Although, it is possible that they both were attempted copies of them that failed.


I'd have to look into the shrines to make sure. As for the crops and the rain, it's not enough. Acsaclon is a burning wasteland. Just look at the ground in some areas and you can see the fires still burning underneath. I'm not sure if it's burning or the crust has cracked so far down that magma is rising to the surface. The other point I was making is that the crops would be burned or destroyed by the Charr. Even though they were pushed back behind the wall, they still invade regularly. A crop would be discovered and wiped out instantly. The Charr would make sure of that. The searing was a killing blow.Fair enough.


Well here's another thought on it. What if Grenth knew about everything going on and chose to ignore it? He knew that humanity was on the job and they'd done a decent enough job with the Lich. Shiro shouldn't be that much of a problem right? We also had the envoys protecting us as well and they actually brought us back to life once. Well, you can look at the Envoys helping as Grenth's way of intervening. The Gods don't intervene directly, this could be done as a self-imposed rule of "don't affect the mortals" that they set up after the whole magic tragedy. That honestly makes sense to me.


So a god can be killed, they just don't want to soil their own hands? What other reason could there possibly be? The death of a god is the death of a god. If you consider yourself a god, then you're not going to worry about being judge, jury and executioner. Who else would be above you? Having to worry about the "rules" of killing Abaddon at this point when he would've gladly killed them, is kind of a hard theory to hold onto imo.
Not taking Abaddons power might actually be the limits in which they can reach. Thinking about it, perhaps they chose to study different facets of the Mists to gain as much knowledge as possible. Each taking a different aspect and continually working on it to a point where little more can be achieved. Perhaps at that point, no more can be stored without doing harm to oneself or the Mists themselves? Who would be above a god to take another god's power? The remaining gods. That's what happened with Abaddon, he broke a rule, he got punished. His punishment, eternity in torment, he wasn't granted release through death, but tormented for a thousand years (would have been all eternity if he didn't start his escape). As you said, power corrupts, so why would they want to become corrupted? After seeing what happened to Dhuum and Abaddon, they would want the power spread out, not all into one being to rule everything. The more gods, the less corruption, but there cannot be more then six gods.

The idea that more power would harm themselves also works.



I brought in dragons because the situation is going to need serious intervention. If the gods chose to acknowledge us when only Abaddon was a threat, then how will they percieve all of these acient, god rivalling dragons waking up all over the place? Are they going to run and hide? Are they going to say "Hey humans, get the hell out while you can!" Will they even bother with us at all? As for all the worlds they have to watch. Let's be honest. How much attention would you say the really pay to humanity? They can use an endless stream of avatars to communicate with us. And they have little need to specifically hear or see us or intervene. That should be obvious considering we were the ones who fought Abaddon. Imo being one of those gods is pretty much a long self indulgent break that is for personal power gain through study of the powers you wield. My biggest issue with your arguments, is that you say "humanity" like it is the only thing they worry about, or don't in your case. There are many many more races then humanity, but I'm just picky with vocabulary. Rest of that... I'm not in the mood to continue.

jayson
25-09-2008, 18:46
The attack on Shing Jea Island would be around the same time as the attack on the Hall of Heroes, the attack on the Underworld, and the attack on the Fissure of Woe, if my understanding of the timeline is correct. I don't believe Dhuum would attack us because we defended Grenth, he works more directly towards Grenth then to do that. I think Dhuum would have just blocked off our passage. Besides, by the dialogue, it seemed Dhuum was after the essences, not revenge.

Well looking at Abaddons tactics, we see that included attacking Tyria directly by helping out the charr who previous to Abaddon, had no gods. Ascalons people technicaly have nothing to do with him. And if Dhuum or Meznies are in league with Abaddon, why wouldn't they help out in doing the exact same thing to Cantha or Elona or anywhere for that matter?


I believe that Glint is a child, or grand child or whatever, of one of the Ancient Dragons, same with Kuunavang. Although, it is possible that they both were attempted copies of them that failed.

Going by the lore we would have to believe it's true that they are the creation of the gods. But you're right. It remains to be seen whether or not Glint and Kuunavang are what they say the are.


Well, you can look at the Envoys helping as Grenth's way of intervening. The Gods don't intervene directly, this could be done as a self-imposed rule of "don't affect the mortals" that they set up after the whole magic tragedy. That honestly makes sense to me.

Yeah I added that part to actually try to look at it from a helpful side of the gods. It was all I could come up with. The Envoys helped us because we had a purpose to serve. So it still imo falls under manipulation.


Messenger Vetaura: "We cannot stand by while Shiro continues to meddle in the affairs of the mortal."
Emissary Heleyne: "His duty is to shepherd the newly dead to the gates of the Mists."
Emissary Heleyne: "He's shirking his responsibility as an Envoy."
Courier Torivos: "For every disembodied spirit that he lets loose here in the mortal realm, the delicate equilibrium between worlds tips further out of balance."
Courier Torivos: "Whatever his plan is, it must be stopped."
Herald Demrikov: "But how? We are only Envoys ourselves. We cannot fight Shiro."
Emissary Heleyne: "We can combat Shiro by acting like Shiro."
Messenger Vetaura: "We are the Envoys to the next world."
Messenger Vetaura: "The shepherds who guide the newly departed to Eternal Paradise within the Mists."
Messenger Vetaura: "We were sent here to show you the path to the afterlife."
Herald Demrikov: "But it's not your time. We will not guide you today."
Courier Torivos: "We return you your departed spirits."
Courier Torivos: "We give back to you the gift of life."
Emissary Heleyne: "But it comes with a price."
Herald Demrikov: "In return, we ask your help in defeating Shiro."

Even here we're being helped but only because they have need for us. If Shiro wasn't the threat they deemed him to be, we'd be permanent worm food.


Who would be above a god to take another god's power? The remaining gods. That's what happened with Abaddon, he broke a rule, he got punished. His punishment, eternity in torment, he wasn't granted release through death, but tormented for a thousand years (would have been all eternity if he didn't start his escape). As you said, power corrupts, so why would they want to become corrupted? After seeing what happened to Dhuum and Abaddon, they would want the power spread out, not all into one being to rule everything. The more gods, the less corruption, but there cannot be more then six gods.

The idea that more power would harm themselves also works.

It was a theory that I came up with. The five gods started looking for a candidate to replace Abaddon when the stuff hit the fan so to speak. Kormir was put into power very quickly and imo it was a last minute desperate plan. It's not about being able to kill Abaddon, it's about harnessing the power he weilds after killing him.


]<player name>: "Abaddon is breaking up!"
Kormir: "Incredible! All that knowledge!"
<player name>: "It's running wild! It will destroy everything!"
Kormir: "I'm going into it!"
<player name>: "You can't do that!"
Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"
<player name>: "Kormir! No!"
Kormir: "You said it yourself - it's about a choice! A choice that only a mortal can make!"[/B]<player name>: "Kormir?"
Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more."
<player name>: "Abaddon?"
Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."
Kormir: "Nightfall has come and gone. I have much to do...Much must be repaired."
Kormir: "This will take you home, or to wherever you desire."
<player name>: "Kormir, if you need help..."
Kormir: "Yes. Yes, I will, but for the moment, you have your world back. The gods spoke the truth. It is your world. Use it wisely."
<player name>: "Of course."
Kormir: "And remember my friend - you never fight alone."

So we have an actual issue here where the power of a god when released is like an atomic bomb. It might also help to further my theory about how much power a god can actually hold. Finding a candidate for that power would indeed seem to be a healthy motivation to put things into motion. Kormir was the kind of person who could be trusted. She was a soldier who was accustomed to leadership and also would be able to follow orders. She was being primed from the start of the campaign. More manipulation imo.


My biggest issue with your arguments, is that you say "humanity" like it is the only thing they worry about, or don't in your case. There are many many more races then humanity, but I'm just picky with vocabulary. Rest of that... I'm not in the mood to continue.

I say humanity because I look at the Charr and how they don't worship gods. I look at how the gods supposedly plunked the humans down right onto their land and allowed them to take over. We also have Glint who is supposed to be a guide and the Forgotten who are somewhat of a help. The dwarves only call upon the great dwarf as their god. Even though it could possibly be Balthazar in disguise. The rest of the races just don't seem to have any specific need or desire to worship humanities gods from what I've seen.

Although I'm sure if there's instances you could prove me wrong. :wink:

Arkhan The Black
25-09-2008, 20:47
I think the other races worship the six gods in their own way. They probably don't think of the pantheon as humans who probably sculpted the statues. There is also the fact that humanity has pushed aside the other races and you therefor don't notice so much religious practise from them since they are a more modest minority. We never get to see all of the world either so for all we know there could be non human civilizations worshiping the six gods more openly.

Konig Des Todes
25-09-2008, 22:01
Well looking at Abaddons tactics, we see that included attacking Tyria directly by helping out the charr who previous to Abaddon, had no gods. Ascalons people technicaly have nothing to do with him. And if Dhuum or Meznies are in league with Abaddon, why wouldn't they help out in doing the exact same thing to Cantha or Elona or anywhere for that matter?You only prove my point. The "bad guys" made it our problem.


Yeah I added that part to actually try to look at it from a helpful side of the gods. It was all I could come up with. The Envoys helped us because we had a purpose to serve. So it still imo falls under manipulation.if it is manipulation, it is needed manipulation. Grenth had his hands full *although idk why Dwayna, Melandru, and Lyssa didn't do anything... maybe they have their hands full too but are stubborn and don't want our help? xD* Also, the manipulation can fall under what I said before, a self-given rule of "don't interfere with mortals."


It was a theory that I came up with. The five gods started looking for a candidate to replace Abaddon when the stuff hit the fan so to speak. Kormir was put into power very quickly and imo it was a last minute desperate plan. It's not about being able to kill Abaddon, it's about harnessing the power he weilds after killing him.

So we have an actual issue here where the power of a god when released is like an atomic bomb. It might also help to further my theory about how much power a god can actually hold. Finding a candidate for that power would indeed seem to be a healthy motivation to put things into motion. Kormir was the kind of person who could be trusted. She was a soldier who was accustomed to leadership and also would be able to follow orders. She was being primed from the start of the campaign. More manipulation imo. You first say a last minute desperation plan, then say she was being made into a replacement from the beginning. Which is it? And if Kormir was being made into a replacement, don't you think there would be others? Examples of leaders who were not corrupted (but sometimes not the brightest, at least in the game): Turai Ossa, Rurik, Evennia, Togo, Kormir, Saul D'Alessio, etc. There are many humans who are like kormir (trust-wrothy, have some power but not corrupted by it, I'm sure if the others didn't die and had a chance to fight Abaddon, the gods would have wanted one of them as a replacement). Kormir was just given the chance of fighting Abaddon (although she did nothing >.>).


I say humanity because I look at the Charr and how they don't worship gods. I look at how the gods supposedly plunked the humans down right onto their land and allowed them to take over. We also have Glint who is supposed to be a guide and the Forgotten who are somewhat of a help. The dwarves only call upon the great dwarf as their god. Even though it could possibly be Balthazar in disguise. The rest of the races just don't seem to have any specific need or desire to worship humanities gods from what I've seen.

Although I'm sure if there's instances you could prove me wrong. :wink:


I think the other races worship the six gods in their own way. They probably don't think of the pantheon as humans who probably sculpted the statues. There is also the fact that humanity has pushed aside the other races and you therefor don't notice so much religious practise from them since they are a more modest minority. We never get to see all of the world either so for all we know there could be non human civilizations worshiping the six gods more openly.

I'll address both of these posts in one response:

The Humans, Dwarves, Naga (suspected), Forgotten, and the Grawl worship the True Gods.

The Dwarves add a 7th god to the pantheon, the Great Dwarf, and worships that 7th god as their patron god (in THK, Jalis says "Grenth's left hand comes for us"). The Naga have little evidence, but there is a Naga Monk Boss with the name "Ssuns, Blessed of Dwayna." The Forgotten, well they serve the Gods directly. The Grawl congregate near the Temple of Grenth, near a ruined theater with a Lyssa Statue in the Eastern Frontier, and are near the Melandru Statue in Regent Valley (there are also the heretics).

The Norn's religion is the spirits of nature (similar to Native Americans), the Asura believe in the Eternal Alchemy, the Charr are Atheists, Tengu, Heket, Mursaat, Seers, Harpies, Skales, and Centaurs are unknown of their deities (but for Tengu, Skales, and Centaurs, we do have a basic understanding of their religion... very basic).

The Norn, Charr, and Asura (there might be knowledge of the Mursaat and Seers knowing of the True Gods, Quintus would know that more then me though) know of the True Gods' existence, but don't worship them. I believe the other races also know of the True Gods, but don't worship them.

Other races are pretty much non-sentient (although I might have forgotten a few).

So half of the races do believe in the Gods, all acknowledge the gods.


The dwarves only call upon the great dwarf as their god. Even though it could possibly be Balthazar in disguise. I think that theory is now debunked thanks to The Great Destroyer being proven not to be Menzies.

Gmr Leon
25-09-2008, 22:28
Imo it'd be a little more accurate to say the water in our bodies is what allows us to manipulate the energy from the Mists. I don't think it's the soul of a human because I'm still not convinced that we are a creation of the Mists. I think that with extensive practice humanity learns about the connection to water and increases the powers and abilities they wield. The soul is who we are, the Mist are what we manipulate. I differentiate the two as a soul being our lifeforce and the Mist an energy source.

I've never said that humans are a creation of the Mists. Although indirectly, they are. From whichever pantheon of Gods created them, and if I'm correct about the Gods, that would make them created by the Mists.

I would agree with you, about the water in bodies, except for the fact that souls are harnessed to such an extent that it can't only be water. There would have to be something further, that something to me, seems likeliest to be a chunk of the Mists. If the Mists are like matter or energy, being unable to be created or destroyed, just change forms, then this further supports my thoughts. If it were only water, they would have to keep the humans alive, or skin them to utilize the water that was conducting the Mists.

We never see that occur. Therefore, the best conclusion with the current information, would be for their ability to manipulate the Mists coming from the chunk within their soul.

As a matter of fact, that would even explain why there are ghosts existing in Tyria. Their energy just changes, from being physically contained to spectrally contained.


The current gods and humanity would have to be at least from somewhere other then the places they have resided in during the time of the current gods. If it wasn't the case, then humanity would never have been the invaders. We have to have come from somewhere right? And I feel that there's a lot of Tyria left unexplored imo. We may in fact just be from another part of this world.

I have no doubt that that is a possibility.


I have this feeling that the old gods were in fact the dragons and that humanity or at least some of humanity figured out a way to tap into the very power the dragons wield. Some of these humans actually rivalling the power of the dragons themselves.

I just realized that's impossible. That is, the Old Gods being the Ancient Dragons. It seems apparent to me, that for the most part, the physical container of the Mists, that is the God in question, has to be destroyed so that their chunk of the Mists may be absorbed. This is displayed in the actions associated with Abaddon. They still exist, to an extent, but their physical form must be shattered.

I have no doubt that there is a method in which to bypass this complete absorption, or destruction, mainly due to Dhuum's remaining presence. I think, just as the Mursaat are able to split their aspects up to hide and survive, Gods may be able to do something similar. It may be that Grenth was unable to absorb all of Dhuum, or only mortally wounded him enough to draw enough of the power to be a God. It's too unclear to really speculate on, though.


They hold dominance over certain manipulation by choice or by ability would you say? If the gods have this level of power including the ability of bestowing the power over life and death, it would seem to me that only one god holding that kind of power could potentially be a threat to the others.

This is why I said scrap that, because I realized it would become too confusing to try and explain the aspects they hold dominance over.

I believe that they have a choice, myself. Because of the fact that, from my perspective at least, there have always been Gods, anyone wishing to usurp that position would have a choice of which aspect of the Mists he or she wanted to gain dominance over. Then it would just be a matter of choosing the God who presides over that particular area of dominance and trying to kill them.

You might look at it as a very basic hierarchy or government. That is, I disagree with the current person in power's methods, so I'm going to kill them and preside over their position with methods I feel are right!

This seems to be indicated the most by Grenth's usurping of Dhuum. Dhuum was described as a rather terrible God, torturing souls, and the like. Seems to have been a sadistic fellow. Grenth disagreed, managed to kill him mostly, and took over.


EDIT:
I actually read all of the posts I'm just horribly slow at typing lol. I have a hard enough time keeping up with a single posters conversation. Two is quite a daunting task for me.

Ah, that's completely understandable. I'm just glad you don't take the short route. That is, being completely unclear and frustrating to read.


So a god can be killed, they just don't want to soil their own hands? What other reason could there possibly be? The death of a god is the death of a god. If you consider yourself a god, then you're not going to worry about being judge, jury and executioner. Who else would be above you? Having to worry about the "rules" of killing Abaddon at this point when he would've gladly killed them, is kind of a hard theory to hold onto imo.

Not taking Abaddons power might actually be the limits in which they can reach. Thinking about it, perhaps they chose to study different facets of the Mists to gain as much knowledge as possible. Each taking a different aspect and continually working on it to a point where little more can be achieved. Perhaps at that point, no more can be stored without doing harm to oneself or the Mists themselves?

I think there are simply limits on what they're capable of handling without simply becoming the Mists again. What I mean by this is that, according to my viewpoint, the Gods' souls hold a larger chunk of the Mists which is what allows them their power. They're already able to change forms and alter reality as it is, but they're also so close to the Mists without being it, that going any further would simply join them back to the whole. Losing their sentience and abilities. It might even be that they fear the filter dams they put in place, would simply shatter from their power rejoining the Mists.

So keeping their own individual powers is already providing enough of their benevolence towards, well, any creature. This would also explain why of both the examples we see of Gods fighting, never have the others intervened to the point of killing another God.

None of the pantheon tried to kill Dhuum when he abused his powers and tortured souls from the information we have. Grenth had to and from what we're provided, he doesn't appear to have been a demiGod.

At the point of Abaddon, we actually see them trying to fight him, which may only be due to his siege of the Gates of Heaven, but that aside. Abaddon, a God angry and possibly insane, didn't even try to absorb the powers of the two Gods he defeated (not killed, keep that in mind). He could have killed them then, but he did not. Why? He would return to the Mists, and if anything's obvious, he was about to give the Gods hell before he ever let that happen.

To put it simply, there appears to be a certain balance of the Mists that keeps them from doing so, albeit of their own benevolence. This would also explain why there are so many souls in both the Underworld and remaining on the physical plane. I think they have to be put in storage, that is the Underworld, in those forms, until the Mists spawns something new. Depending on the chunk of the Mists within the soul of that individual and that included in the new specimen produced, they would return that individual to the Mists. Keeping the balance.

This would also explain the comments about what Shiro was doing and how it was screwing everything up. The Envoys guide souls directly to the Mists, and obviously they know the balance. So when he stopped doing so, he was just doing things that eventually would produce negative effects. We never saw these, so it's hard to say what exactly these effects could be.

It might be that he was messing up the filter dams. Filling up both sides, without returning anything to the other side. Invalidating the entire existence of the Bloodstones (filter dams) in the first place.

That actually makes sense..It seems Abaddon found a way to bypass the Bloodstones again. He was actually attempting to restore Tyria to its state prior to the existence of the Bloodstones or so it would appear if my thoughts are correct.

Ravious Pretagata
22-10-2008, 15:13
This thread became way too convoluted, but with the OP, I think you are on a good track. I would cross-reference Bahltek to see if you are all the closer. ;)

XxxTenebraexxX
17-12-2008, 11:29
Dragons:

-It's entirely possible that the Dragons were the first gods.

The Dragons are currently awakening from a period of being dormant...perhaps this was a sort of hibernation period that they go through? If that's the case, maybe they imbued six mortals with a part of their power to rule in their place whilst they slept. These individuals would have been as vile as their gods, obviously, because these Dragons would have chosen those of like minds to themselves. However, perhaps it was their equally vile nature, and diminished power in comparison to their gods, that spelled their demise? Six mortals could have rose up armies to slay these avatars...and then took the power for themselves...and this cycle could have continued...the Dragons oblivious that their empire had fallen and their power now in the hands of those they would deem quite unworthy of it.

This would indeed explain why the Gods have withdrawn themselves further from the mortal world, fear of the Dragons coming to take back what they had stole...and do who knows what with their mortal remains after. Now, you can say that the power to manipulate the mist makes this theory impossible...but we notice that the Dragons litterally corrupt and twist anything that falls within their path...even whilst they are simply flying over the landscape...it all warps and distorts. Personally, I feel that the Dragons are, most likely, even closer tied to and able to manipulate the mists than even the Gods are...which makes sense following this theory.

If there are six main Dragons, which I have no idea of personally, then this further supports this theory.

The Mists:

-Even if the Dragons are the first gods...I don't believe them to be true gods either.

I believe The Mists to be a true god, but not sentient...and moreso like a grand cosmic machine such as Leviathan in the Hellraiser series. The God of Creation...able to be used and influenced by dark and light...to produce constructs of good and evil. It's possible, but unlikely, that there are other true gods that actually are sentient who influence the mist...lurking beyond the realms of comprehension as they simply toy with the lesser races in a game of chess. To beings of such untold power, who are truly immortal and cannot be destroyed...life and existence would eventually be seen as a game, one to be played. The Mists makes for a perfect game, constantly different and ever changing...limited only by the imagination of what influences it. These true gods could play a role in the future...making their presence known through their own insanely powerful emissaries.

Regardless of the theory involving true gods, I believe The Mists to be the only known true god...despite the fact that it's not sentient...I see it as the engien of creation.

The Six Gods:

-Power corrupts with time...

Dhuum was evil, we can all agree with that...he reveled in torture, though he did state that Grenth defeated him in such an easy manner that it was embarassing. So, we know that he's not too terribly arrogant...blatantly admiting that his defeat was at his own foolishness...or done so in an embarrassing manner.

Grenth is a just god, but we know that he's no saint...and his statue depicts worshipers groveling in an attempt to have him shower them with "gifts" of power. So, obviously he adores praise and worship...to have people groveling at his feet for whatever scraps he chooses to toss their way. So, while just...he's obviously dark natured.

Balthazar is the god of war, arguably you could deem his ways noble...or barbaric. He adores to watch mortals hack one another to pieces in his name. So, whilst you could say his ways are the way of the sword...he's obviously got one hell of a blood thirst that matches his godhood title.

Abaddon was the god of secrets and water, a god shunned for being too free with the gift of magic and banished to the realm of torment because of it. Since that time, he's obviously become evil...but before his banishment we know little of his persona...but we know that he defeated two of the gods without destroying them, showing a possible display of mercy and even potential unwillingness to dispatch his commrads.

It seems that the gods are basically mortals with too much power than should be granted to any mortal...they can swing either way, teter towards good or evil at the drop of a hat.........because they were once mortal and in mind...still are.

Gmr Leon
18-12-2008, 14:14
That comes really close to deserving its own thread..However, you tie it in with this to the point that it might be a bit confusing were it on its own. That aside..


Dhuum was evil, we can all agree with that...he reveled in torture, though he did state that Grenth defeated him in such an easy manner that it was embarassing. So, we know that he's not too terribly arrogant...blatantly admiting that his defeat was at his own foolishness...or done so in an embarrassing manner.

As Konig already mentioned to you in another thread, this was not Dhuum that stated it. Instead, it was the Reaper of the Chaos Planes, we have never directly encountered Dhuum, thus we have never had the chance to engage in any form of dialogue with him.

The Ancient Dragons..I do not believe to even be close to what would be defined as Gods in-game. They have powers that rival the Gods, but they are not omniscient, omnipotent, or, and despite not all Gods being this either, omnibenevolent.

Gods create, are worshiped, and help their worshipers. The Ancient Dragons, on the other hand, mutate/alter, force servitude, and send their servants to fight a battle they likely won't survive. Do they care? No. The Ancient Dragons are, in contrast to how you described the Mists, engines of destruction.

What they have is the ability to manipulate the elements without restrain; these Ancient Dragons, with the exception of the Orrian dragon we call Malchor, are, to put it quite crudely, more beast than anything else. They show very little signs of a calm sentience which may be conversed with. Instead, they seem more likely to alter you to become one of their servants.

There is no denying that, at least according to my ideas, they contain a large portion of the Mists which allows them such an ability to alter Tyria and Tyria's creatures with ease. However, then this means that the balance is not only maintained by the Six Gods containing parts of the Mists, this would imply that the Ancient Dragons also play a role in doing so. Unlike the Ancient Dragons, though, the Gods show some restraint and control over their ability.

This then means that the Ancient Dragons may be similar to the Gods, in that they must be destroyed and their powers absorbed to stop them completely. In other words, the Ancient Dragons could be, in a way, "God Beasts," the precursors to any Gods that must then challenge and defeat them to ascend to Godhood. Afterward, it becomes defeating the God in question for their ability to become a God.

XxxTenebraexxX
19-12-2008, 11:53
That comes really close to deserving its own thread..However, you tie it in with this to the point that it might be a bit confusing were it on its own. That aside..

Heh...

Walls o text and unorthodox views are what I excell at, you should have seen my theories on the potential history of the Xel'Naga in Starcraft, and the reasoning for their experimentation on the hybridization of Zerg and Protoss. :P


As Konig already mentioned to you in another thread, this was not Dhuum that stated it. Instead, it was the Reaper of the Chaos Planes, we have never directly encountered Dhuum, thus we have never had the chance to engage in any form of dialogue with him.

Indeed, that was quite a mistake on my part. I could have sworn that I read it on the wiki article AND from individuals here...but obviously I was very mistaken. I should have realized when I read that no one knew what Dhumm looked like, so how could he say anything.

*Sighs*

Then again, I am reading many of the threads here, and replying, at six in the morning BEFORE sleeping...that may have a part to play.


The Ancient Dragons..I do not believe to even be close to what would be defined as Gods in-game. They have powers that rival the Gods, but they are not omniscient, omnipotent, or, and despite not all Gods being this either, omnibenevolent.

Yes...but neither are the Six Gods.

I was simply presenting the possibility that the Dragons are stronger "Gods" than the Six Gods. We have yet to see any being who's omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent...and personally, I like that. I don't believe any being is any of those...even in reality despite being a spiritual person myself, granted with unorthadox spiritual beliefs.

I would hope that, even IF they add true immortal Gods, that they aren't either of those terms...simply eternal and beyond anything in the realm of comprehension.


Gods create, are worshiped, and help their worshipers. The Ancient Dragons, on the other hand, mutate/alter, force servitude, and send their servants to fight a battle they likely won't survive. Do they care? No. The Ancient Dragons are, in contrast to how you described the Mists, engines of destruction.

Then there isn't a "God" in any mythos game or reality.

Even the Christian and Catholic God brought forth a great flood that dorwn all life in order to "start anew"...not to mention a myriad of other various acts that anyone who dosn't follow God may see as "evil". Not saying that our mythological Gods were akin to the Guildwars Dragons...just that they don't follow the fabricated, fluffy, definition of a God...and are as prone to chaos as they are creation...good as they are evil. Just depends on who you are as a person and your perception of these "divine" acts as to if you see them as good or evil.

The Mists, though deemed a "True God" in my eyes, also lacks sentience...and is, thus, incapable of good or evil...it's, more or less, a machine...least in my eyes. Simmilar to Leviathan off Hellraiser...that was, truly, the best comparison I could muster. :)


What they have is the ability to manipulate the elements without restrain; these Ancient Dragons, with the exception of the Orrian dragon we call Malchor, are, to put it quite crudely, more beast than anything else. They show very little signs of a calm sentience which may be conversed with. Instead, they seem more likely to alter you to become one of their servants.

So did Abaddon...actually, all the current Six Gods have their own servants that had been altered to reflect them. The Dragons are little different in their actions...simply far more sinister and chaotic.

"According to the article in PCgamer, the Great Destroyer is simply the general of the ancient dragon, Primordus."

We see they have a hiarchy and alter others into their servants...the servants of the Dragon who rose Orr from the depths actually sailing the seas and cutting off supplies and the like. They seem to act with sentience...both servants and master, granted a sinister and chaotic sentience.


There is no denying that, at least according to my ideas, they contain a large portion of the Mists which allows them such an ability to alter Tyria and Tyria's creatures with ease. However, then this means that the balance is not only maintained by the Six Gods containing parts of the Mists, this would imply that the Ancient Dragons also play a role in doing so. Unlike the Ancient Dragons, though, the Gods show some restraint and control over their ability.

According to the wiki article on Primordus, he "practically bleeds magic"...that's all we know though.
I also believe the Dragons to be from The Mists and not "True Gods", I simply believe them to be "higher" than the Six Gods...and more powerful.


This then means that the Ancient Dragons may be similar to the Gods, in that they must be destroyed and their powers absorbed to stop them completely. In other words, the Ancient Dragons could be, in a way, "God Beasts", the precursors to any Gods that must then challenge and defeat them to ascend to Godhood. Afterward, it is becomes defeating the God in question for their ability to become a God.

An "eternal adversary" kind of deal?
Perhaps, also entirely possible...all reliant on details that, sadly, I'm more than sure we won't get till the game :P
Hopefully, at least some of those answers are given...right now, it's all extremely vauge.

Konig Des Todes
19-12-2008, 13:02
I originally avoided posting in this thread to keep form another argument, but as the other thread's argument is simmering down...


Yes...but neither are the Six Gods.

I was simply presenting the possibility that the Dragons are stronger "Gods" than the Six Gods. We have yet to see any being who's omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent...and personally, I like that. He was making less of a point of the True Gods being omni-whatever, and more of a point of the Ancient Dragons not having any kind of personality near what the True Gods have. If I'm correct.


Then there isn't a "God" in any mythos game or reality.

Even the Christian and Catholic God brought forth a great flood that dorwn all life in order to "start anew"...not to mention a myriad of other various acts that anyone who dosn't follow God may see as "evil". Not saying that our mythological Gods were akin to the Guildwars Dragons...just that they don't follow the fabricated, fluffy, definition of a God...and are as prone to chaos as they are creation...good as they are evil. Just depends on who you are as a person and your perception of these "divine" acts as to if you see them as good or evil. Off topic (heck this hole argument is a bit off topic now) but, while it is true that even the supposed omni-everything positive is in fact not omni-everything, the point was more directed, or should have been, to the creation and worship part, not the omni- part. As said, the Ancient Dragons do not create, they twist and change.


The Mists, though deemed a "True God" in my eyes, also lacks sentience...and is, thus, incapable of good or evil...it's, more or less, a machine...least in my eyes. Simmilar to Leviathan off Hellraiser...that was, truly, the best comparison I could muster. :)As I said earlier in this thread, and was going to in reply to your first post in this thread *which I decided not to post to keep the large debates down in numbers* was that the Mists is less like a god, or machine in your eyes, and more like a way of life - meaning that it is the beginning and end (common term for this is "the alpha and the omega" - don't get me into real life religions, I'm more hardcore against the western religions than I am on anything here). It has no mind, but is what creates things, and is where things go after death (more specifically, what creates the souls and where the souls go after being destroyed *within the Rift, mind you*).


So did Abaddon...actually, all the current Six Gods have their own servants that had been altered to reflect them. The Dragons are little different in their actions...simply far more sinister and chaotic. Yes, the gods can change the shape of beings - those are called the blessed of <insert god name here>. Yes, so can the Ancient Dragons. However, the Ancient Dragons do not create.


We see they have a hiarchy and alter others into their servants...the servants of the Dragon who rose Orr from the depths actually sailing the seas and cutting off supplies and the like. They seem to act with sentience...both servants and master, granted a sinister and chaotic sentience.It is natural to have a "beta" in a pack while one is the "alpha." And the patrolling servants of Malchor is more likely to be "protecting the 'alpha's' territory" and less of "cutting off supplies and separating the humans from each other."


This then means that the Ancient Dragons may be similar to the Gods, in that they must be destroyed and their powers absorbed to stop them completely. In other words, the Ancient Dragons could be, in a way, "God Beasts", the precursors to any Gods that must then challenge and defeat them to ascend to Godhood. Afterward, it is becomes defeating the God in question for their ability to become a God. As I was talking to Leon about in game yesterday, this whole idea can be countered by one thing. If the Ancient Dragons themselves are in fact the source of the Gods. This throws out the whole "kill to take the power of" idea. If the Ancient Dragons are still living, they could not have been killed, therefore they cannot be the source of any of the current gods. If there are things such as the "God Beasts" Leon proposes, than there would have to be six new unknown "God Beasts."

However, this is highly unlikely to be the case. Due to the Ancient Dragons' powers being so similar to the gods.

Malchor=Death (or Life, depending on your view)
Primordus=Fire and Earth
Deep Sea Dragon=Water (it is even said to make tendrils from the water, just as Abaddon did)
Drakkar=Ice

With that in mind, this means that there were originally only 12 "God Beasts" and there were at least four that were copies of others (as we do not know what the abilities of Grothmar is really, simply corrupting what it flew over is not enough information, and we do not know if the Desert Dragon is the same as Grothmar)


An "eternal adversary" kind of deal?
Perhaps, also entirely possible...all reliant on details that, sadly, I'm more than sure we won't get till the game :P
Hopefully, at least some of those answers are given...right now, it's all extremely vauge.Adversary is not the idea of the "God Beasts" - however, it is the idea of my theory on the Ancient Dragons.

That is, that the Ancient Dragons (simply called Dragons due to basic looks, as there are many different shapes and sizes of a "dragon") are what could be called "anti-gods" - or more common to real life religions - devils. Not really demons, but the most powerful evil in the universe. With Primal instincts, able to change anything to it's will, and is the ultimate power to rival the full power of a god.

This also goes hand in hand with my "two types of magic" theory - that there is magic controlled and/or produced by the True Gods, and that there is magic produced by the Ancient Dragons. The magic of the Ancient Dragons cannot create though, only twist and bend.

This idea though, only comes from my innate love for the concept of balance in everything. For everything good, there must be equally something evil. As such, the gods would be "good" - however able to be corrupted - and the "dragons" would be "evil."

My hypothesis also would counteract the possibility of any "True" God that you constantly bring up. As if there was something stronger than the True Gods, then there must be something equally stronger than the Ancient Dragons. And the Ancient Dragons cannot be the "ultimate rival" to "good" in the world - as these supposed "True" Gods would be much stronger than the Ancient Dragons.

This also affects Dhuum, Menzies, and Abaddon. Believed to be evil, if the Ancient Dragons are the evil aspect of the gods, than why are these three evil? Simple, in reality, they are not evil. Just corrupted or suffering for the mental fallibility of mortality. As these gods are not the original, the original True Gods would be the real opposite to the Ancient Dragons, but were overthrown.

...

Shesh, I think I should just make a new thread, as this is going way off topic.

XxxTenebraexxX
19-12-2008, 14:09
He was making less of a point of the True Gods being omni-whatever, and more of a point of the Ancient Dragons not having any kind of personality near what the True Gods have. If I'm correct.

By "True Gods" you mean the Six Gods correct?
Anyway, I think I understand what he means...I simply don't believe that the Dragons are any less sentient and intelligent than the Six Gods. I believe that they are akin, in persona, to Abaddon and Dhuum...though probably more chaotic.


Off topic (heck this hole argument is a bit off topic now) but, while it is true that even the supposed omni-everything positive is in fact not omni-everything, the point was more directed, or should have been, to the creation and worship part, not the omni- part. As said, the Ancient Dragons do not create, they twist and change.

Yes, I understand that...I was simply expressing the point that most everything, the Six Gods included, is a shade of gray...that his definition of a God didn't even fit them. As for the Dragons...I'm sure they create something, besides more Dragons of course. We know that they warp and change anything they come across...converting them into servants. That's all we really know though isn't it...we don't know the full extent of their abilities correct?

The argument isn't really as off topic as it may see.

As I said, I do fully agree that they're agents of chaos...that doesn't mean that all they do is warp and change existence. After they have full control over their territory, I'd assume that some sort of existence is their aim...unless they follow "Apep" concept of no desire but the destruction of everything...all life and all existence extinguished.


As I said earlier in this thread, and was going to in reply to your first post in this thread *which I decided not to post to keep the large debates down in numbers* was that the Mists is less like a god, or machine in your eyes, and more like a way of life - meaning that it is the beginning and end (common term for this is "the alpha and the omega" - don't get me into real life religions, I'm more hardcore against the western religions than I am on anything here). It has no mind, but is what creates things, and is where things go after death (more specifically, what creates the souls and where the souls go after being destroyed *within the Rift, mind you*).

Yeah,

Our concept is extremely similar here...I just compare it to a horror movie reference because I'm a bit warped. Leviathan, off the hellraiser series, was an entire alternate dimention, a machine of creation, so on and so forth. The cenebites were, essentially, similar to the Six Gods in the fact that they held a lot of power over the machine... It was simply the best comparison I could come up with, but yes...you and I are in, practically, agreement here...I disagree with nothing you say here.


Yes, the gods can change the shape of beings - those are called the blessed of <insert god name here>. Yes, so can the Ancient Dragons. However, the Ancient Dragons do not create.

Well,

We don't know if they create or not, thus far we've only seen them warp and change... Actually, the Wiki article states that the Destroyers were the Spawn of The Great Destroyer, who was a general of the Ancient Dragon Primordus. Now, I'm not sure if he's classified as a Dragon himself...but if so, his Spawn would have been created as opposed to warped or changed...at least "Spawn" implies created as opposed to altered from another being.

I'm not sure if The Great Destroyer constitutes as a Dragon though...looks like one, at least as much as Primordus does. I doubt he's an Ancient Dragon...but possibly the same "Species" without as much power?


It is natural to have a "beta" in a pack while one is the "alpha." And the patrolling servants of Malchor is more likely to be "protecting the 'alpha's' territory" and less of "cutting off supplies and separating the humans from each other."

Also likely, I suppose it'll depend upon how they act when we encounter them and get more information on the persona of the Dragons and their followers.


As I was talking to Leon about in game yesterday, this whole idea can be countered by one thing. If the Ancient Dragons themselves are in fact the source of the Gods. This throws out the whole "kill to take the power of" idea. If the Ancient Dragons are still living, they could not have been killed, therefore they cannot be the source of any of the current gods. If there are things such as the "God Beasts" Leon proposes, than there would have to be six new unknown "God Beasts."

Actually...that wasn't my quote, it was his...I accidentally forgot the quote tags and, apparently, fixed it whilst you were working on your post. The concept, and possibility, that I proposed in my initial post here didn't take away from the "kill to take the power of" idea...it simply proposed the possibility that the Six Gods obtain their power form the Ancient Dragons themselves...

I hypothesized that, perhaps, in more chaotic times the Dragons ruled unchecked...but upon hibernation they appointed "Avatars" to posses a portion of their power to rule in their absence. This was the birth of the whole "kill to take the power of" idea...other creatures finding out that, upon killing these avatars, they could steal their power and replace them. This could have continued until lesser ruthless beings strived to steal these powers from tyrant Avatars to create a new existence of peace and prosperity...the Ancient Dragons oblivious due to their state of hibernation.

This, however, all falls under how truly sentient the Ancient Dragons are...if they actually had an "empire" of any sort. If they truly are non-sentient beasts that simply possess immense power...then this hypothesis falls flat.


However, this is highly unlikely to be the case. Due to the Ancient Dragons' powers being so similar to the gods.

Malchor=Death (or Life, depending on your view)
Primordus=Fire and Earth
Deep Sea Dragon=Water (it is even said to make tendrils from the water, just as Abaddon did)
Drakkar=Ice

With that in mind, this means that there were originally only 12 "God Beasts" and there were at least four that were copies of others (as we do not know what the abilities of Grothmar is really, simply corrupting what it flew over is not enough information, and we do not know if the Desert Dragon is the same as Grothmar)

This is exactly why I asked how many Ancient Dragons are there?

Wiki currently says there are five known, a few possibly being the same ones we already knew about:

Known ancient dragons:

* Primordus
* The "Drakkar" of the Far Shiverpeaks
* The desert dragon (possibly the same entity as the "Grothmar" or "Drakkar")
* The dragon of ice and snow (possibly the same entity as the "Drakkar")
* The undead dragon of Orr
* The "Grothmar" from the Charr Homelands
* The Deep Sea dragon

If the copy Dragons are indeed the same ones known that makes for Primordus, Drakkar, Grothman, Malchor, and the Deep Sea Dragon...which makes five main Ancient Dragons. If there's one more that we're unaware of, and the copies are indeed just sightings of the ones we know, then that makes a total of six...who have abilities strikingly similar to the current Six Gods.

That further supports the possibility of my hypothasis being correct...that their powers may indeed be somehow tied to the Dragons themselves...be them the final result of a "Kill to obtain the power of" Avatar reign whilst the Ancient Dragons slumbered...or some other means.

Though this is purely something of speculation as well, this may be why the Gods eventually become corrupt...perhaps the power, being a "gift" of the Ancient Dragons, that was meant to be in the claws of their chosen, is dark...and it's a constant struggle to maintain the morals of a mortal...one they live with on a regular basis.

-Perhaps this is why Balthazar has his fun watching mortals slaughter one another...a fix if you will.
-Perhaps this is why Dhuum and Abaddon became corrupt...one would assume, since Dhuum was with the other five, that he was originally in the same mindset as them...a just God and ally before he was toppled by Grenth for becoming a cruel and warped torturer.



Shesh, I think I should just make a new thread, as this is going way off topic.

Hehe...

It truly isn't as off topic as you may think, the OP is updated with the more plausible theories whilst everything else is an open discussion in relevance to those theories no?

Gmr Leon
19-12-2008, 14:22
Yes...but neither are the Six Gods.

I was simply presenting the possibility that the Dragons are stronger "Gods" than the Six Gods. We have yet to see any being who's omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent...and personally, I like that. I don't believe any being is any of those...even in reality despite being a spiritual person myself, granted with unorthadox spiritual beliefs.

I would hope that, even IF they add true immortal Gods, that they aren't either of those terms...simply eternal and beyond anything in the realm of comprehension.

You're right, they're not, but the point was in how the Gods acted and how the Dragons acted more than those traits. However, to an extent, the Gods are fairly omniscient as they see us even in the Realm of Torment when we pray to them in the Temple of the Six Gods. They would have to be at least fairly so to locate us and send a message, right?


Then there isn't a "God" in any mythos game or reality.

Even the Christian and Catholic God brought forth a great flood that dorwn all life in order to "start anew"...not to mention a myriad of other various acts that anyone who dosn't follow God may see as "evil". Not saying that our mythological Gods were akin to the Guildwars Dragons...just that they don't follow the fabricated, fluffy, definition of a God...and are as prone to chaos as they are creation...good as they are evil. Just depends on who you are as a person and your perception of these "divine" acts as to if you see them as good or evil.

No doubt that is true, but the Gods have shown more control or restraint than the Ancient Dragons. They have caused destruction, true, but they have fashioned more and tried to keep Tyria safe more than destroy it. That's more than the Ancient Dragons have ever done, as they've caused more destruction, twisted the elements to serve them, and engaged in war with anything around them ever since they awakened.


The Mists, though deemed a "True God" in my eyes, also lacks sentience...and is, thus, incapable of good or evil...it's, more or less, a machine...least in my eyes. Simmilar to Leviathan off Hellraiser...that was, truly, the best comparison I could muster. :)

A machine, a large organic interact-with-spit-out-result stretching across the Tyrian universe, whatever you want to call it, but don't deem it a God. It is more like a tool as I've stated in this very thread from my observations, as if my thoughts are correct one must manipulate the Mists even to use magic. This is actually supported to an extent by the Ritualists' magic existing prior to the gift of magic from the Gods, as they were utilizing the souls of their ancestors, which I propose to be chunks of the Mists, to cast spells.


So did Abaddon...actually, all the current Six Gods have their own servants that had been altered to reflect them. The Dragons are little different in their actions...simply far more sinister and chaotic.

Abaddon was the only known God of the Six to completely alter and mutate humans into Margonites that share his appearance faintly. All the other servants were not humans taken and altered to appear similar to them. That is the difference between Abaddon's servants, the Ancient Dragons' servants, and the servants of the Five Gods.


"According to the article in PCgamer, the Great Destroyer is simply the general of the ancient dragon, Primordus."

We see they have a hiarchy and alter others into their servants...the servants of the Dragon who rose Orr from the depths actually sailing the seas and cutting off supplies and the like. They seem to act with sentience...both servants and master, granted a sinister and chaotic sentience.

As I said though, the Orrian dragon, which we call Malchor, was more of an exception and not the rule. The Great Destroyer wasn't even a real general per se, instead he was more like a channeling device for Primordus's magic to produce the initial forces of Destroyers, alongside being a living alarm clock for Primordus.


According to the wiki article on Primordus, he "practically bleeds magic"...that's all we know though.
I also believe the Dragons to be from The Mists and not "True Gods", I simply believe them to be "higher" than the Six Gods...and more powerful.

I find that a possibility as well, however, the article itself states that their power rivals that of the Gods. This does not mean that they are more powerful than the Gods, in fact, it practically disproves it in a way. If they were to state that the Ancient Dragons' power superseded that of the Gods', then they would have used that spot to do so. They did not though, instead, they stated quite clearly that their powers rival that of the Gods.


By "True Gods" you mean the Six Gods correct?
Anyway, I think I understand what he means...I simply don't believe that the Dragons are any less sentient and intelligent than the Six Gods. I believe that they are akin, in persona, to Abaddon and Dhuum...though probably more chaotic.

I don't believe them to be less sentient, but they clearly aren't doing what they're doing out of intelligence either. They appear to be acting more on primal territorial instincts than anything else.


Our concept is extremely similar here...I just compare it to a horror movie reference because I'm a bit warped. Leviathan, off the hellraiser series, was an entire alternate dimention, a machine of creation, so on and so forth. The cenebites were, essentially, similar to the Six Gods in the fact that they held a lot of power over the machine... It was simply the best comparison I could come up with, but yes...you and I are in, practically, agreement here...I disagree with nothing you say here.

That's basically what I said as well in relation to the Mists and the Gods.


We don't know if they create or not, thus far we've only seen them warp and change... Actually, the Wiki article states that the Destroyers were the Spawn of The Great Destroyer, who was a general of the Ancient Dragon Primordus. Now, I'm not sure if he's classified as a Dragon himself...but if so, his Spawn would have been created as opposed to warped or changed...at least "Spawn" implies created as opposed to altered from another being.

Yet it later states that Primordus twists the earth with his breath, which is an altering of the environment rather than simply spawning. It slightly shows this in-game as well in the cutscenes as in one of the visions we see a Destroyer of Flesh, I think it is, form out of the magma.


The concept, and possibility, that I proposed in my initial post here didn't take away from the "kill to take the power of" idea...it simply proposed the possibility that the Six Gods obtain their power form the Ancient Dragons themselves...

I hypothesized that, perhaps, in more chaotic times the Dragons ruled unchecked...but upon hibernation they appointed "Avatars" to posses a portion of their power to rule in their absence. This was the birth of the whole "kill to take the power of" idea...other creatures finding out that, upon killing these avatars, they could steal their power and replace them. This could have continued until lesser ruthless beings strived to steal these powers from tyrant Avatars to create a new existence of peace and prosperity...the Ancient Dragons oblivious due to their state of hibernation.

This, however, all falls under how truly sentient the Ancient Dragons are...if they actually had an "empire" of any sort. If they truly are non-sentient beasts that simply possess immense power...then this hypothesis falls flat.

This is where my idea and yours diverge in their views. I don't believe that the Ancient Dragons ever had any Avatars of any sort with the exception of the Great Destroyer. That being the case I believe in the possibility of the existence of supposed God Beasts, but there's not very strong support for that, just as I believe there isn't very strong support for the Ancient Dragons being the source of the Gods' powers as they still live.

XxxTenebraexxX
19-12-2008, 14:47
You're right, they're not, but the point was in how the Gods acted and how the Dragons acted more than those traits. However, to an extent, the Gods are fairly omniscient as they see us even in the Realm of Torment when we pray to them in the Temple of the Six Gods. They would have to be at least fairly so to locate us and send a message, right?

In that sense then, yes I would agree...


No doubt that is true, but the Gods have shown more control or restraint than the Ancient Dragons. They have caused destruction, true, but they have fashioned more and tried to keep Tyria safe more than destroy it. That's more than the Ancient Dragons have ever done, as they've caused more destruction, twisted the elements to serve them, and engaged in war with anything around them ever since they awakened.

Also true...

They, however, are a vastly different species...and their "empire" may have been what they felt was their right to create. So whilst chaotic and violent...their variation of Tyria may have been the first and natural state. It may have been a place where the Ancient Dragons wared over territory, utalizing their respective forces against one another to gain more ground...to claim more land. It would obviously be seen as a time of great sorrow and destruction to us...but to them, it may be no more than how things were meant to be.

In the eyes of the majority of creatures that existed in their time...they may have very well been praised as "good" Gods...because the majority of creatures back then may have had the same mentality...territorial and beliving that through conquest you gain territory. Survival of the fittest...lead by the strongest "God".

Those who thought like the Six Gods may have been few and far inbetween, if my hypothesis is correct, they may not have even existed in the same time period...having spawned this new mentality in later generations after the Dragons appointed their Avatars to watch over their territories whilst they slept.

Their current actions may be no more than their mindset that everything of their empire was destroyed by weak races...and they have to now start all over again from scratch. This is ultimately seen as evil by us...but by them, it's simply how things were...and what was viewed as "good" at the time, a strong nation lead by a strong leader who never backed down and always tore at the heart of it's prey.


A machine, a large organic interact-with-spit-out-result stretching across the Tyrian universe, whatever you want to call it, but don't deem it a God. It is more like a tool as I've stated in this very thread from my observations, as if my thoughts are correct one must manipulate the Mists even to use magic. This is actually supported to an extent by the Ritualists' magic existing prior to the gift of magic from the Gods, as they were utilizing the souls of their ancestors, which I propose to be chunks of the Mists, to cast spells.

Possibly, and yes...I view it mostly as a "machine" in the sense that it simply follows a primary function and that's it...nothing more nor less.


Abaddon was the only known God of the Six to completely alter and mutate humans into Margonites that share his appearance faintly. All the other servants were not humans taken and altered to appear similar to them. That is the difference between Abaddon's servants, the Ancient Dragons' servants, and the servants of the Five Gods.

Lyssa's Avatar is a face in a wreath...granted you could argue that it's only a fabricated visage chosen to reflect her nature in her servant.


As I said though, the Orrian dragon, which we call Malchor, was more of an exception and not the rule. The Great Destroyer wasn't even a real general per se, instead he was more like a channeling device for Primordus's magic to produce the initial forces of Destroyers, alongside being a living alarm clock for Primordus.

Be that as it may...do we know if he was created by Primordus, a lesser dragon, or a warped servant?


I find that a possibility as well, however, the article itself states that their power rivals that of the Gods. This does not mean that they are more powerful than the Gods, in fact, it practically disproves it in a way. If they were to state that the Ancient Dragons' power superseded that of the Gods', then they would have used that spot to do so. They did not though, instead, they stated quite clearly that their powers rival that of the Gods.

That's quite true and the main fault in my hypothesis...
The only thing I can contemplate that MAY get around that is the possibility that they sacrificed a great deal of their power in giving it to their Avatars.

You'd want to give them as much as you can to maintain your territory...whilst not giving them enough to defeat you when you awake.


I don't believe them to be less sentient, but they clearly aren't doing what they're doing out of intelligence either. They appear to be acting more on primal territorial instincts than anything else.

Not necessarily,

Though it was covered in my previous post done whilst you were posting haha...hope I can edit this one fast enough. Anyway, in their eyes...they may simply be reverting everything back to how it was when they rieged...in their eyes, we may be what's "evil", having weakened as species and intermingled nations...melded far too much for their tastes when strong territories ruled by an Ancient Dragon is how, in their eyes, things are meant to be.

It's still quite intelligent...as much as our variant of culture is, it's simply different...not what we would consider "good". Well, not most of us at least...heh.


That's basically what I said as well in relation to the Mists and the Gods.

Indeed...we're all on, pretty much, the same page here in regards to The Mists.


Yet it later states that Primordus twists the earth with his breath, which is an altering of the environment rather than simply spawning. It slightly shows this in-game as well in the cutscenes as in one of the visions we see a Destroyer of Flesh, I think it is, form out of the magma.

Interesting...

Though, he is forming it out of Magma right...how do the Gods create races, out of thin are...The Mists itself...do we even know? What's the the difference between the two beyond terminology? Primordus created a Destroyer of Flesh from Magma...the Six Gods created a race from...?

If the Six Gods "create" in a simmilar way...just with less Chaos, it's the same concept...different perception on how it should be done. In their time, the landscape was probably far more reflectant to the twisted variant that they are creating now...because that's just how things were.

It's like those cheese alien movies where they invade...and we find out that they were actually originally from Earth and simply taking back their home...having left it for whatever the reason only to come back and find us destroying it in their eyes. So, they try to destroy us and change things back...or simply take it.


This is where my idea and yours diverge in their views. I don't believe that the Ancient Dragons ever had any Avatars of any sort with the exception of the Great Destroyer. That being the case I believe in the possibility of the existence of supposed God Beasts, but there's not very strong support for that, just as I believe there isn't very strong support for the Ancient Dragons being the source of the Gods' powers as they still live.

If there are Six Ancient Dragons who have strikingly simmilar powers to the current Six Gods...that would at least pose the possibility that they are tied somehow...and there are five thus far no?

Granted, it's only speculation and quite possibly wrong...but it's a theory nevertheless.

Konig Des Todes
19-12-2008, 15:09
By "True Gods" you mean the Six Gods correct?True Gods, Six Gods, Five Gods (prior to NF), and Old Gods are all terms used for Dwayna and the rest. I use True Gods because they are 1) no longer five, 2) no longer old, and 3) possibly more than six originally.


Well,

We don't know if they create or not, thus far we've only seen them warp and change... Actually, the Wiki article states that the Destroyers were the Spawn of The Great Destroyer, who was a general of the Ancient Dragon Primordus. Now, I'm not sure if he's classified as a Dragon himself...but if so, his Spawn would have been created as opposed to warped or changed...at least "Spawn" implies created as opposed to altered from another being.

I'm not sure if The Great Destroyer constitutes as a Dragon though...looks like one, at least as much as Primordus does. I doubt he's an Ancient Dragon...but possibly the same "Species" without as much power?Ok, first, all evidence we have point to the gods creating Tyria and various life forms on Tyria - including Glint. As there is nothing to go against this, we cannot say that they do not create. Second, the Destroyers are earth and fire (or, specifically, stone and lava) merged into an elemental - so to speak. The Destroyers are controlled by the Great Destroyer, who is also made of stone and lava. As Leon stated, the Great Destroyer is less of an actual general as a more direct creation of Primordus. Third, the wiki isn't completely trusty. And lastly on this part, the Great Destroyer is not a dragon, but is draconic. If we can link it to anything except a Destroyer, it would be an Elemental.


I hypothesized that, perhaps, in more chaotic times the Dragons ruled unchecked...but upon hibernation they appointed "Avatars" to posses a portion of their power to rule in their absence. This was the birth of the whole "kill to take the power of" idea...other creatures finding out that, upon killing these avatars, they could steal their power and replace them. This could have continued until lesser ruthless beings strived to steal these powers from tyrant Avatars to create a new existence of peace and prosperity...the Ancient Dragons oblivious due to their state of hibernation.

This, however, all falls under how truly sentient the Ancient Dragons are...if they actually had an "empire" of any sort. If they truly are non-sentient beasts that simply possess immense power...then this hypothesis falls flat. I should have realized it was what Leon said, but what still. >.> Anyways, there is still the issue in your hypothesis of "why would the Ancient Dragons hibernate voluntarily?" And if they did it once, did they do so before. And if they did in fact do so before, why wasn't there a rebellion. And if there was, why is there no evidence of such? With this idea, you ask one question, and you end up with hundreds. Eventually, it will get to the point of "extremely unlikely."


Known ancient dragons:

* Primordus
* The "Drakkar" of the Far Shiverpeaks
* The desert dragon (possibly the same entity as the "Grothmar" or "Drakkar")
* The dragon of ice and snow (possibly the same entity as the "Drakkar")
* The undead dragon of Orr
* The "Grothmar" from the Charr Homelands
* The Deep Sea dragon Drakkar and the snow dragon are the same. Desert Dragon can only be one with Grothmar, not Drakkar. There is one possible dragon not mentioned, that is the "Ice Pillar" Dragon - also called the "Air" Dragon. But that too is just a hypothesis (I personally think it's a "general" of Drakkar - or more specifically, one of the original creations of Drakkar like the Great Destroyer was of Primordus)


Though this is purely something of speculation as well, this may be why the Gods eventually become corrupt...perhaps the power, being a "gift" of the Ancient Dragons, that was meant to be in the claws of their chosen, is dark...and it's a constant struggle to maintain the morals of a mortal...one they live with on a regular basis.

-Perhaps this is why Balthazar has his fun watching mortals slaughter one another...a fix if you will.
-Perhaps this is why Dhuum and Abaddon became corrupt...one would assume, since Dhuum was with the other five, that he was originally in the same mindset as them...a just God and ally before he was toppled by Grenth for becoming a cruel and warped torturer.I find the reasoning behind corruption more likely to be what draxynnic from Guru said recently:


The thought strikes me that if Abaddon 'comes back' by posessing Kormir...

...How would we know that it's Abaddon and not Abaddon's ur-predecessor? What if the domain of knowledge is essentially cursed, so that everyone who picks up the mantle will go mad eventually and all each successor can do is hold on for as long as they can?

This could be extended to other domains as well. Maybe Death has a similar issue, with Grenth simply being at a different stage of the life cycle. Maybe Menzies was the elder brother, and Balthazar stepped in when he went around the bend. Maybe Dwayna and Melandru are the only one who's portfolio's are 'safe' (this would match the theory based on them both having wings in some depictions that they're the original gods while the wingless deities... aren't) and that Lyssa isn't known to have a rival just means it was long enough ago that she'll be next to go around the bend?

As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts entirely.Short version: All gods will eventually become corrupted because one of the past gods in the line was corrupted. This also supports my theory of the original gods being "omni-benevolent" then being supplanted by evil gods (aka, the "insectoid gods" - the generation of gods prior to the ones we know *Abaddon not included in the insectoid gods* - as it is known that at least two insectoid gods -Arachnia and Dhuum - were evil) then later in some line by the True Gods we know. Due to the evil of the previous gods in the line, some of the gods will become corrupted and the Ancient Dragons are the anti-gods of the original True Gods.

I hope I'm not rambling incoherently...

XxxTenebraexxX
19-12-2008, 15:28
True Gods, Six Gods, Five Gods (prior to NF), and Old Gods are all terms used for Dwayna and the rest. I use True Gods because they are 1) no longer five, 2) no longer old, and 3) possibly more than six originally.


That's true...the possibility of there being more than six Gods like the current known six is indeed present, especially with the Great Dwarf...who we know not as to if he's been destroyed correct?


Ok, first, all evidence we have point to the gods creating Tyria and various life forms on Tyria - including Glint. As there is nothing to go against this, we cannot say that they do not create. Second, the Destroyers are earth and fire (or, specifically, stone and lava) merged into an elemental - so to speak. The Destroyers are controlled by the Great Destroyer, who is also made of stone and lava. As Leon stated, the Great Destroyer is less of an actual general as a more direct creation of Primordus. Third, the wiki isn't completely trusty. And lastly on this part, the Great Destroyer is not a dragon, but is draconic. If we can link it to anything except a Destroyer, it would be an Elemental.


*Nods*

Alright, I didn't know if they would consider it a Dragon or not...the Ancient Dragons themselves all look part of their "element" themselves...or reflectant of their power more so.


I should have realized it was what Leon said, but what still. >.> Anyways, there is still the issue in your hypothesis of "why would the Ancient Dragons hibernate voluntarily?" And if they did it once, did they do so before. And if they did in fact do so before, why wasn't there a rebellion. And if there was, why is there no evidence of such? With this idea, you ask one question, and you end up with hundreds. Eventually, it will get to the point of "extremely unlikely."


-It's possible that this was their first hibernation.
-It's possible that most all species were akin, in persona, to the Ancient Dragons up until the most recent hibernation.

Those are the only two possible reasons I can think of offhand, well...another possibility is that they sleep longer each hibernation period...and the former didn't allow enough time to bolster an effective enough rebellion...or none dared try till this one.


Drakkar and the snow dragon are the same. Desert Dragon can only be one with Grothmar, not Drakkar. There is one possible dragon not mentioned, that is the "Ice Pillar" Dragon - also called the "Air" Dragon. But that too is just a hypothesis (I personally think it's a "general" of Drakkar - or more specifically, one of the original creations of Drakkar like the Great Destroyer was of Primordus)


*Nods*

That was just directly from the Wiki to show what I was talking about, didn't know about the "Ice Pillar" Dragon though.


I find the reasoning behind corruption more likely to be what draxynnic from Guru said recently:

Short version: All gods will eventually become corrupted because one of the past gods in the line was corrupted. This also supports my theory of the original gods being "omni-benevolent" then being supplanted by evil gods (aka, the "insectoid gods" - the generation of gods prior to the ones we know *Abaddon not included in the insectoid gods* - as it is known that at least two insectoid gods -Arachnia and Dhuum - were evil) then later in some line by the True Gods we know. Due to the evil of the previous gods in the line, some of the gods will become corrupted and the Ancient Dragons are the anti-gods of the original True Gods.

I hope I'm not rambling incoherently...

*Blinks*

If I understand correctly, I can easily see that as just as likely a possibility. I have other possible outcomes as well, theories and speculations...I just stick to the ones that seem more likely in my think meat...or ones that seem just as likely and different than what everyone else thinks. That way all potential outcomes can be considered...and each can be picked apart until their likely and unlikely elements remain.

Konig Des Todes
19-12-2008, 15:37
They, however, are a vastly different species...and their "empire" may have been what they felt was their right to create. So whilst chaotic and violent...their variation of Tyria may have been the first and natural state. It may have been a place where the Ancient Dragons wared over territory, utalizing their respective forces against one another to gain more ground...to claim more land. It would obviously be seen as a time of great sorrow and destruction to us...but to them, it may be no more than how things were meant to be.

In the eyes of the majority of creatures that existed in their time...they may have very well been praised as "good" Gods...because the majority of creatures back then may have had the same mentality...territorial and beliving that through conquest you gain territory. Survival of the fittest...lead by the strongest "God".

Those who thought like the Six Gods may have been few and far inbetween, if my hypothesis is correct, they may not have even existed in the same time period...having spawned this new mentality in later generations after the Dragons appointed their Avatars to watch over their territories whilst they slept.

Their current actions may be no more than their mindset that everything of their empire was destroyed by weak races...and they have to now start all over again from scratch. This is ultimately seen as evil by us...but by them, it's simply how things were...and what was viewed as "good" at the time, a strong nation lead by a strong leader who never backed down and always tore at the heart of it's prey.I... don't really know how to respond to this other than, I disagree and there is nothing to really support this. Not yet at least.


That's quite true and the main fault in my hypothesis...
The only thing I can contemplate that MAY get around that is the possibility that they sacrificed a great deal of their power in giving it to their Avatars.

You'd want to give them as much as you can to maintain your territory...whilst not giving them enough to defeat you when you awake.The question still stands of how the Avatars of the Ancient Dragons got that power. If the avatars were on a god level and if the Ancient Dragons' power rivals the gods (note: rivals usually means equals in cases like this), than the Ancient Dragons each pretty much split their power in half. Why and how?


Though it was covered in my previous post done whilst you were posting haha...hope I can edit this one fast enough. Anyway, in their eyes...they may simply be reverting everything back to how it was when they rieged...in their eyes, we may be what's "evil", having weakened as species and intermingled nations...melded far too much for their tastes when strong territories ruled by an Ancient Dragon is how, in their eyes, things are meant to be.

It's still quite intelligent...as much as our variant of culture is, it's simply different...not what we would consider "good". Well, not most of us at least...heh.I would agree with you if they acted like this overall, not just in their own little areas. They only transform the area they decide to dwell in, and nothing else. As far as we know at least - but we cannot rightfully assume that they will go out and change the rest, not yet at least.


Though, he is forming it out of Magma right...how do the Gods create races, out of thin are...The Mists itself...do we even know? What's the the difference between the two beyond terminology? Primordus created a Destroyer of Flesh from Magma...the Six Gods created a race from...?

If the Six Gods "create" in a simmilar way...just with less Chaos, it's the same concept...different perception on how it should be done. In their time, the landscape was probably far more reflectant to the twisted variant that they are creating now...because that's just how things were.-ignores movie comment- The difference is that the beings that the Ancient Dragons "create" are similar in the material they are created from. Destroyer resembles elementals due to them being made out of rock and lava. Humans, Centaurs, Tengu, etc. etc. They all have flesh and bones, without resembling the elements of nature. That is the main difference. The second main difference is that, seemingly, the creatures formed from the Ancient Dragons are mindless, ruled by the "heads" - that is, the Great Destroyer and Primordus, probably other "generals" throughout.


If there are Six Ancient Dragons who have strikingly simmilar powers to the current Six Gods...that would at least pose the possibility that they are tied somehow...and there are five thus far no?

Granted, it's only speculation and quite possibly wrong...but it's a theory nevertheless.-still holds to his "anti-God" idea-


Alright, I didn't know if they would consider it a Dragon or not...the Ancient Dragons themselves all look part of their "element" themselves...or reflectant of their power more so. I don't think so personally. Primordus is just covered in a layer of rock, probably caused by the lava around him. Drakkar is encased in ice, but underneath, it shows natural skin. There is a 3d render that was pulled out by someone over on Guru, if you want I can go find it. As for Grothmar, he too shows natural skin.


-It's possible that this was their first hibernation.
-It's possible that most all species were akin, in persona, to the Ancient Dragons up until the most recent hibernation.

Those are the only two possible reasons I can think of offhand, well...another possibility is that they sleep longer each hibernation period...and the former didn't allow enough time to bolster an effective enough rebellion...or none dared try till this one.Say this is their first hibernation. Why need to hibernate? Say this last hibernation was the first time creatures felt the need to "rebel" - why now of all times? Say there even was a rebellion - why no mention of it?

XxxTenebraexxX
20-12-2008, 08:32
I... don't really know how to respond to this other than, I disagree and there is nothing to really support this. Not yet at least.

How to explain...

Alright, lets say we gave the bullshark sentience and the ability to manipulate it's surroundings...legs and arms. Now, lets say that they developed a society, technology, so on and so forth. Do you presume that their morals and code of ethics would be similar to ours based simply on the fact that they obtained sentience and are an intelligent species now?

Of course not...they would most likely still be VERY predatory in their thinking...their morals, code of ethics, what they deem "good" and "evil" different than us as a species.

We, for example, try to help the weak...they may find that to be evil and believe that the destruction of the weak ensures the strength of a species...which is logically true to an extent. This, however...IS going off topic...

Basically,

The Six Gods and the Dragons probably think drastically different...the species who thrived near the Dragons erra could have followed their thought process and not that of the current Gods.


The question still stands of how the Avatars of the Ancient Dragons got that power. If the avatars were on a god level and if the Ancient Dragons' power rivals the gods (note: rivals usually means equals in cases like this), than the Ancient Dragons each pretty much split their power in half. Why and how?

The Ancient Dragons may simply be able to inbune a portion of their power at will, as for their power rivialing that of the Gods now...that could be due to the fact that the Gods have half of the Dragons power to begin with.

Basically my hypothesis would be:

-The Dragons ruled over territory at constant war with one another to expand or defend it.
-The Dragons went into a state of hibernation and to ensure their lands had a "General" who could adequately defend it...they imbued them with part of their power.
-These Avatars ended up getting destroyed, others taking their power until you eventually have the Six Gods of present time.
-The Dragons awoke...their lands dissipated and culture drastically different than what it had been...their power in the hands of beings they would have deemed weak and unworthy of such.


I would agree with you if they acted like this overall, not just in their own little areas. They only transform the area they decide to dwell in, and nothing else. As far as we know at least - but we cannot rightfully assume that they will go out and change the rest, not yet at least.

That, in my hypothesis, would come when they have adequate forces to spread their territory...
In their time, their territories would have been huge...expanding until meeting the borders of a rival Ancient...but now those territories are gone, so you start small...build a force...and then expand when you have the territory you control secured.


-ignores movie comment- The difference is that the beings that the Ancient Dragons "create" are similar in the material they are created from. Destroyer resembles elementals due to them being made out of rock and lava. Humans, Centaurs, Tengu, etc. etc. They all have flesh and bones, without resembling the elements of nature. That is the main difference. The second main difference is that, seemingly, the creatures formed from the Ancient Dragons are mindless, ruled by the "heads" - that is, the Great Destroyer and Primordus, probably other "generals" throughout.

Granted, we haven't seen any "sentient" creations from the Dragons.


-still holds to his "anti-God" idea-

Which is also possible :)


I don't think so personally. Primordus is just covered in a layer of rock, probably caused by the lava around him. Drakkar is encased in ice, but underneath, it shows natural skin. There is a 3d render that was pulled out by someone over on Guru, if you want I can go find it. As for Grothmar, he too shows natural skin.

Indeed so, I'd love to see it.


Say this is their first hibernation. Why need to hibernate? Say this last hibernation was the first time creatures felt the need to "rebel" - why now of all times? Say there even was a rebellion - why no mention of it?

Could be a myriad of reasons...

We all agree the Dragons also came from The Mists, created by it.
It's possible that it was always part of their nature and that this was simply the first time they entered into hibernation.

If it wasn't the first time they hibernated, then it could have simply fell under the possibility that the majority of races were all in the same frame of mind, chaotic and territorial. The more "meek" races, those who desired peace and prosperity through peace, may have been non-existent during the initial hibirnation periods...or too small in number to bolster enough force to take out an Avatar. The most recent hibernation period may simply have been their first good chance...and upon taking it, they succeeded.

Konig Des Todes
20-12-2008, 09:43
The Ancient Dragons may simply be able to inbune a portion of their power at will, as for their power rivialing that of the Gods now...that could be due to the fact that the Gods have half of the Dragons power to begin with.

Basically my hypothesis would be:

-The Dragons ruled over territory at constant war with one another to expand or defend it.
-The Dragons went into a state of hibernation and to ensure their lands had a "General" who could adequately defend it...they imbued them with part of their power.
-These Avatars ended up getting destroyed, others taking their power until you eventually have the Six Gods of present time.
-The Dragons awoke...their lands dissipated and culture drastically different than what it had been...their power in the hands of beings they would have deemed weak and unworthy of such.Ok, you avoided my main point. I'll restate:

If the avatars were on a god level and if the Ancient Dragons' power rivals the gods (note: rivals usually means equals in cases like this), than the Ancient Dragons each pretty much split their power in half. Why would they give up half of their power?




Indeed so, I'd love to see it. Hold.... First, pictures of it within the lake (with poor rendering, it's how it was found over on Guru):


I have a small discovery...Kind of, lol.

In the explorable area in GW:EN, Drakkar Lake, you may know there seems to be a frozen sea creature beneath the iced over lake, however this is hard to see for some due to near-opaque dark blue ice. Well with me, my graphics card is lame, so it doesn't pick up on the details on the layer of ice; making it clear as glass. (As close as I can figure at least :ninja: )

As a result, I can see perfectly below everything and I have pretty good screen shots of the creature as proof, lol. I would like to add them to Guildwiki, however I'm a newbie at wiki because I've never done it before so I was hoping that someone could take this content and add it for me?
I don't know if anyone has posted such a thread before, so my bad if there is. =P

(Forgive the page stretching, I'll replace the screens with URL links if wanted)

Here are some of the screen shots:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw215.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw217-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw218-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw219-2.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw220-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw226.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw229.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw168.jpg






Added 27/09/07:


http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw385.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw386.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw389.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw390.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw392.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw404.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw407.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/gw410.jpg





Added 28/09/07: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e104/MALCHIOR1134/92446D.tmp.jpg


The text reads: "In Eye of the North, players can find a couple of dragons resting in hibernation. The idea was to have a dragon sleeping under the ice of a frozen lake, as if he'd been there since before the area went frosty."

So, Drakkar was sleeping there and the world changed around him over hundreds of thousands of years, and now we know they're in hibernation, and not put there by the gods. So a jeepers creepers style thing is more there.

Second, the 3d render pulled out of the lake.

full drakkar

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1306/drakkarhb6.jpg

I have his model in 3dsmax so if any1 want it..i can upload it somewhere




If it wasn't the first time they hibernated, then it could have simply fell under the possibility that the majority of races were all in the same frame of mind, chaotic and territorial. The more "meek" races, those who desired peace and prosperity through peace, may have been non-existent during the initial hibirnation periods...or too small in number to bolster enough force to take out an Avatar. The most recent hibernation period may simply have been their first good chance...and upon taking it, they succeeded.I still find this highly, very highly, unlikely though.

But I will laugh very hard when it turns out that the Ancient Dragons have absolutely nothing to do with the Gods and they are just powerful creatures that succumbed to nature or something.

Karn the Betrayer
21-12-2008, 09:57
seems to me the dragons fell to sleep cause they were too bored... i mean a mortal woudn't stand a chance against a venguful non evil god eh?


If the avatars were on a god level and if the Ancient Dragons' power rivals the gods (note: rivals usually means equals in cases like this), than the Ancient Dragons each pretty much split their power in half. Why would they give up half of their power?

true, even we wouldn't half our power with a underling it risks the risk of being overthrown... go figure

XxxTenebraexxX
21-12-2008, 17:33
Ok, you avoided my main point. I'll restate:

If the avatars were on a god level and if the Ancient Dragons' power rivals the gods (note: rivals usually means equals in cases like this), than the Ancient Dragons each pretty much split their power in half. Why would they give up half of their power?

Well,

I didn't intentionally avoid it, simply got a little lost in my own rant heh. Anyway, that's a great point...and the only possibility I can fathom is that the Dragons wanted to ensure that they had enough of their power to secure their respective territory. They had to guesstimate as to the amount of power their adversaries were granting their own Avatars...and between paranoia of them obtaining too much power, and them having enough to defend against the other Avatars, they ended up giving them about half of their power. Abaddon was strong enough to defeat two Gods at once...that could be due to my theory in regards to him knowing his comrades secrets, or because his respective Dragon had given it's Avatar a bit more power than the others did.

An additional possibility could be that the Dragons are true immortals, whilst those they bestow their power on don't retain true immortality, able to be destroyed and have their power absorbed by another mortal. This would give them a little leyway in bestowing their powers...if they can't be destroyed, it's not so bad to give half your power to one whom can be. Eventually, you'll wear them out whilst they are, at their core, only mortal.



Note: Interesting, drakkar doesn't look as though he can fly...or move outside of water for that matter, unless he changes, somehow, when he awakens. Thanks for those images, much abliged.



I still find this highly, very highly, unlikely though.

But I will laugh very hard when it turns out that the Ancient Dragons have absolutely nothing to do with the Gods and they are just powerful creatures that succumbed to nature or something.

Granted, there are many possibilities besides mine.

Konig Des Todes
21-12-2008, 17:47
The only possibility I can fathom is that the Dragons wanted to ensure that they had enough of their power to secure their respective territory. They had to guesstimate as to the amount of power their adversaries were granting their own Avatars...and between paranoia of them obtaining too much power, and them having enough to defend against the other Avatars, they ended up giving them about half of their power. Abaddon was strong enough to defeat two Gods at once...that could be due to my theory in regards to him knowing his comrades secrets, or because his respective Dragon had given it's Avatar a bit more power than the others did.

An additional possibility could be that the Dragons are true immortals, whilst those they bestow their power on don't retain true immortality, able to be destroyed and have their power absorbed by another mortal. This would give them a little leyway in bestowing their powers...if they can't be destroyed, it's not so bad to give half your power to one whom can be. Eventually, you'll wear them out whilst they are, at their core, only mortal. But... if the Ancient Dragons are immortal... how will we kill them in GW2? Plot failure. I don't think Anet will allow the Ancient Dragons, or any enemy, to be "true immortals" without being able to easily contain them (like how Palawa Joko was).

And I am still disliking your theories which you pull out of thin air - these "true" gods, "true immortals," etc. etc. The only unkillable things in GW that exist - to what we know (and therefore should stick to only these) are Liches, and if any Ancient Dragon is a lich, it will be Malchor.


Note: Interesting, drakkar doesn't look as though he can fly...or move outside of water for that matter, unless he changes, somehow, when he awakens. Thanks for those images, much abliged. Yes, that has been noted. I personally think that it will walk using those as legs, but also be able to use those as fins (which would be their primary purpose). Perhaps it will move similar to a mandragor.

XxxTenebraexxX
23-12-2008, 15:04
But... if the Ancient Dragons are immortal... how will we kill them in GW2? Plot failure. I don't think Anet will allow the Ancient Dragons, or any enemy, to be "true immortals" without being able to easily contain them (like how Palawa Joko was).

And I am still disliking your theories which you pull out of thin air - these "true" gods, "true immortals," etc. etc. The only unkillable things in GW that exist - to what we know (and therefore should stick to only these) are Liches, and if any Ancient Dragon is a lich, it will be Malchor.

Plot Failure?

Nay, the death of something isn't the only outcome of defeating an enemy...infact, I personally believe that such gets rather dull after a while. It gets rather unoriginial when the ultimate goal is to kill everything you come up against, each being stronger than the last and you simply having to become strong enough to kill it and wait for the next stronger thing to come along. I like a little variation.

Some enemies can be brought around to see things in another light: (Fluffy variation that I'd hate to see but still a variation):

-After all the Dragons have been defeated, they deem that perhaps their way wasn't the best path afterall...the races of this world strong enough to not only rivle them...but defeat them even whilst following a path that they, themselves, had viewed as weak. The Dragons depart and leave the races to exist in peace, going forth to contemplate this lesson and start anew across the mists...

Some enemies can be banished or imprisoned: (Method always varies)

-After nothing seems to end the Dragons chaos, the heros search for a mysterious means of forcing them back into hibernation, or some other form of various imprisonment, as the Dragons send forth their minions to hunt them down. Only with this, whatever happens to be the method, can these devestating beings be imprisoned for, whatever amount of time chosen.

That one's really maliable...but it leaves the Dragons taken out of play...but still existing.

Some enemies simply don't loose: (My favorite...)

-Often do the heros come out on top, able to defeat anything that stands in their way...but I find it much more interesting, personally, when the villins win and obtain what they desire. Imagine if the Dragons are victorious and Tyria is engufed in their corruption, the end of the game leaving off with not the hero's victory...but their retreat to Cantha, Elona, or possibily somewhere new? Then one day later on, players may return to Tyria in an expansion to find it DRASTICALLY changed...warped beyond recognition...and even more dangerous than ever.

Of course, this outcome ULTIMATELY leads to one of the previous two in the end...most likely the second of the two. This possibility could also transpire even if the Dragons can be killed...and I'd love to see it go like this. Regardless, you see what I mean with those two, and pseudo third, examples? We don't HAVE to kill them to defeat them...a end with a twist is always a nice swing every now and again. I'd really like to see that third situation either way...having the Dragons completely consuming Tyria in corruption, having everyone fleeing to Cantha, Elona, or somewhere new before eventually returning to Tyria only to find it extremely warped.


Yes, that has been noted. I personally think that it will walk using those as legs, but also be able to use those as fins (which would be their primary purpose). Perhaps it will move similar to a mandragor.

Quite possibly...one would hope, otherwise it won't be much of a boss :P

Konig Des Todes
23-12-2008, 16:32
Plot Failure?

Nay, the death of something isn't the only outcome of defeating an enemy...infact, I personally believe that such gets rather dull after a while. It gets rather unoriginial when the ultimate goal is to kill everything you come up against, each being stronger than the last and you simply having to become strong enough to kill it and wait for the next stronger thing to come along. I like a little variation. See the Great Destroyer - a true laugh at in comparison to Abaddon, because one was a god and the next wasn't.


Some enemies can be brought around to see things in another light: (Fluffy variation that I'd hate to see but still a variation):

....

Some enemies can be banished or imprisoned: (Method always varies)First one depends on the Ancient Dragons being sentient. Second one, how can beings that are as powerful as you say (i.e., stronger than the gods), be banished somewhere. And if they do in fact have some sentience above primal instincts as you believe, would they not destroy whatever caused them to go into hibernation (assuming that it was not natural like you explanation implies).


Some enemies simply don't loose: (My favorite...) I don't think that one is possible, that is returning to Tyria later one, with how GW works. The looks would still be the same. Anet had a chance to do what you said with Eye of the North, but in the few quests that lead to Ascalon for those with linked accounts - there was no change despite there being more plants starting to grow lore wise. And GW1 is instanced, GW2 is persistant, which prevents this even more as those who beat the first game should have the change while those who have not do not. Unless they do the "return" as a brand spankin new map - which should then prevent returning to the old map (like Pre-searing to Post-searing in Ascalon).

In short, either not possible in game mechanics or illogical in game mechanics. Unless they don't come with a new campaign for GW2 and simply call it GW3.


Regardless, you see what I mean with those two, and pseudo third, examples? We don't HAVE to kill them to defeat them...a end with a twist is always a nice swing every now and again. I'd really like to see that third situation either way...having the Dragons completely consuming Tyria in corruption, having everyone fleeing to Cantha, Elona, or somewhere new before eventually returning to Tyria only to find it extremely warped.

XxxTenebraexxX
24-12-2008, 06:08
See the Great Destroyer - a true laugh at in comparison to Abaddon, because one was a god and the next wasn't.

Elaborate in meaning behind statement?


First one depends on the Ancient Dragons being sentient.

Of course, that's a given.


Second one, how can beings that are as powerful as you say (i.e., stronger than the gods), be banished somewhere.

By that which binds them being stronger...which can varry dependent upon whatever the story.
-Sometimes it's another unknown or rumored being.
-Sometimes it's some ancient artifact.
-Sometimes it's some forbidden magic.
-Sometimes it's something so simplistic it's not realized.

So on and so forth.


And if they do in fact have some sentience above primal instincts as you believe, would they not destroy whatever caused them to go into hibernation (assuming that it was not natural like you explanation implies).

That all depends on if whatever binds them can be destroyed, though if it can be...I would then assume that the Dragons would indeed make an attempt at doing so.


I don't think that one is possible, that is returning to Tyria later one, with how GW works. The looks would still be the same. Anet had a chance to do what you said with Eye of the North, but in the few quests that lead to Ascalon for those with linked accounts - there was no change despite there being more plants starting to grow lore wise. And GW1 is instanced, GW2 is persistant, which prevents this even more as those who beat the first game should have the change while those who have not do not. Unless they do the "return" as a brand spankin new map - which should then prevent returning to the old map (like Pre-searing to Post-searing in Ascalon).

In short, either not possible in game mechanics or illogical in game mechanics. Unless they don't come with a new campaign for GW2 and simply call it GW3.

That is VERY true, sadly.

I had forgotten about the persistent status of GW 2, which I prefer...though it denies that possibility completely. They could still accomplish it, but the Dragons would then have to depart from Tyria and head out to Cantha and Elona...which could work given a good reason for them doing so, but it's not nearly as interesting.

Though one could make the claim that they are returning to their respective territories...that only Malchor resided in Tyria. That then dictates the Dragons as the main enemy in Tyria, Cantha, and Elona...which I'm not too partial to in regards of that restriction of "boss" similarity.

Jair of the Forest
24-12-2008, 08:05
Plot failure.

That's actually what I thought; we're not going to beat the dragons and at all in GW2.

Konig Des Todes
24-12-2008, 10:40
Elaborate in meaning behind statement?In both terms of lore and actual game difficulty, the Great Destroyer was weaker than Abaddon. I don't know what else to say.


By that which binds them being stronger...which can varry dependent upon whatever the story.
-Sometimes it's another unknown or rumored being.
-Sometimes it's some ancient artifact.
-Sometimes it's some forbidden magic.
-Sometimes it's something so simplistic it's not realized.

So on and so forth.This assumes that there even is something strong enough to bind them for a long time.

As I'm sure you realized by now, I am highly against assumptions to the degree of going on absolutely nothing (i.e., the Ancient Dragons being unkillable)

XxxTenebraexxX
24-12-2008, 12:05
In both terms of lore and actual game difficulty, the Great Destroyer was weaker than Abaddon. I don't know what else to say.

That's all that was needed, I get ya now :)
I don't have Eye of the North yet, but that doesn't bode so well for me when I get to Abaddon :P


This assumes that there even is something strong enough to bind them for a long time.

Of course...which, lorewise, could be a possibility...but I doubt they'll do that, frustrates players when there's an enemy that can't be defeated in some way. :P


As I'm sure you realized by now, I am highly against assumptions to the degree of going on absolutely nothing (i.e., the Ancient Dragons being unkillable)

I basically present concepts that I can fathom that don't break the lore. Where you take the small tid bits we DO know and formulate a theory, I take from my own imagination and use what we do know as boundaries to keep it in check.

I speculate about all possibilities, basically.
I think it's a Virgo thing.

Konig Des Todes
24-12-2008, 15:05
Of course...which, lorewise, could be a possibility...but I doubt they'll do that, frustrates players when there's an enemy that can't be defeated in some way. :PWhich is... what I was saying in the first place...


I basically present concepts that I can fathom that don't break the lore. Where you take the small tid bits we DO know and formulate a theory, I take from my own imagination and use what we do know as boundaries to keep it in check.

I speculate about all possibilities, basically.
I think it's a Virgo thing.And that is what I dislike, pulling things out of thin air, because like I said, with that anything goes and you have a million and one hypotheses. And it's not a Virgo thing, as I'm a Virgo.

XxxTenebraexxX
24-12-2008, 18:08
Which is... what I was saying in the first place...

I know, I was pretty much reiterating that point.


And that is what I dislike, pulling things out of thin air, because like I said, with that anything goes and you have a million and one hypotheses. And it's not a Virgo thing, as I'm a Virgo.

Hah, that was more of a joke than anything else...it really doesn't shock me that you're a Virgo too. Regardless, yes, a lot of things are possible...but absurdity is not.

Like when you embellished with the "Gods could be ants" point in regards to my making hypotheses... We can exclude those possibilities because, obviously, those aren't going to be possibilities...unless the dev team has one HELL of a sense of humor. That narrows the realm of hypotheses some.

There's still a lot yes, I just like to cover all possible fields when I speculate...then narrow it down from there. I'm worse when it comes to Starcraft...and life in general, or lack there of more importantly.

Gmr Leon
17-07-2009, 15:10
This thread became way too convoluted, but with the OP, I think you are on a good track. I would cross-reference Bahltek to see if you are all the closer. ;)

High-five Ravious, I know it's been months since this thread was active, and since this post, but a response to this thread on Druid's Overlook drew my thoughts to Bahltek once more, and this quote, which sort of supports my speculation:


The gods can be seen in the heavens... to varying degrees. They've emblazoned their marks upon the firmament, and these marks are not constant. As per established parameters, I'm sure this is entirely comprehensible and beneficial knowledge to you. How very clever you are.

Nice call.


Still, opening a portal directly to the Rift, whether or not it's supposed to be "safe" from demon-spawning, brings Tyria way closer to the Mists than a little spreading of magic could have. Unless, of course, every time we cast a spell we're opening small portals to the Mists to draw power from....OMG, EVERYONE, STOP CASTING!

Oh, and if this post happens to draw your attention back to this thread, and I might be retro-replying to some of these posts with my present thoughts on the matter, here's another idea I had:

Whenever the wave that arose from Orr's resurfacing crashed over the Battle Isles, it sealed off the gateway to the Rift/Hall of Heroes. In sealing off this gateway, it would prevent the opening of another gateway bringing the Mists that much closer. Think of it a bit like a house with several doors to the outside. If all the doors are open there is a chance something or someone will come in, of course, now say by some random chance one of the doors slams shut and it is in a state of disrepair so that it can't be opened again. Well, you install a new door right beside so that the flow of traffic in and out of the house isn't hindered any, and the amount of somethings or someones that may come in isn't altered by any sizable amount.