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Sorale
16-11-2008, 02:07
While I have fun in Fort Aspenwood now that there are actually some decent players there, the format is incredibly, incredibly imbalanced.

This goes beyond reducing the timer by five minutes; previously, it was still incredibly easy to hold off the red side indefinitely. One ranger with interrupts can easily shut down the majority of their offense (Seige Turtles), and one monk can easily protect the majority of their damage. Granted, this is an oversimplified situation and has many variables, but the general idea is still there.

To be fair, this battle type promotes this turtling style of play, however, so it's not just something that can be "fixed" with a simple timer reduction/increase.

I'm wondering if anyone has any similar thoughts on this arena, now that people are actually seemingly interested in it now.

Spazzer
16-11-2008, 06:25
Yep. Aspenwood was pretty easy to win before the update. Arenanet made it almost impossible to lose, and then upped the rewards. It's like the new FFF.

The only reason I can be annoyed about this is that it's more fun to destroy stuff than to defend it, but easy kurzick faction is like giving away free candy.























Seriously, the whole thing needs a rework from the bottom up.

Simply Kedde
16-11-2008, 12:26
Taking 200+ damage from rend on every npc you get near in FA is just plain ridiculous.

Vana
16-11-2008, 14:35
Real men play Jade Quarry.

Guided Daggers
16-11-2008, 14:44
Real men play Jade Quarry.

I'd love to, but I never see anyone there.

Vana
16-11-2008, 16:34
Have you been there since the update?

Sorale
16-11-2008, 18:18
Jade Quarry is pretty balanced. It would have been nice to have equal objectives for both red and blue side. Not only would that make it more evenly matched, but it would also make it more strategic instead of lolturtle-ing for the blue side. You'd have to make runs for amber, protect your NPCs, and send out gank squads.

...of course, considering some of the players that I've seen there, this might be waaaaay above most people's heads...

One thing I thought of might be making Seige Turtle attack EDIT: UN interruptible/UN disable-able. As long as there's a good ranger on my side, I don't need to worry about the turtle's siege attack, since it almost never goes through. This might help balance out the sides, but as it is now, it's kind of ridiculous to even try to win on the red side.

Simply Kedde
16-11-2008, 21:45
Whats really annoying is that 2 mo/p's with make haste means instawins.

Guided Daggers
17-11-2008, 16:48
I've played Jade Quarry for the first time now, and what I saw is that it's alot harder than fort aspenwood. Much more NPC's, and the players are also used to playing JQ.

Vela
17-11-2008, 17:49
Hmm...anyone tried it here? I met warriors with word of healing, elementalist with word of healing, bonders, rits with xinrae's even found a sin with shield of regen. And of course all of these joining from Kurzick side.

Wonder why was the change made to completely off-balance this mission?

If this was discussed elsewhere already, please delete or merge this. And sorry for duplication.

teina
17-11-2008, 18:01
I haven't tried it, but I've heard about it. It's probably this:



# Kurzick players in Fort Aspenwood will now receive faction equal to 15 times the percentage of completion of the Vengeance of the Gods at the end of the match.

# The time it takes for the Vengeance of the Gods meter to fill up has been reduced by 5 minutes.


So, they just sit it out and play defense, given the bigger reward/shorter time in the new patch?

-T

Spazzer
17-11-2008, 18:33
If this was discussed elsewhere already, please delete or merge this. And sorry for duplication.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=484494

Skyy High
17-11-2008, 18:57
The update really didn't do anything to "unbalance" FA. Games were rarely, if ever, decided in the last 5 minutes; either the luxons steamrolled an unprepared kurz team, or they threw themselves against a nigh-unstoppable kurz defense for 15 or 20 minutes (I forget how long the timer used to be) until the game ended (or, they left). The only thing that has changed is that kurzicks don't have to wait as long as luxons to get their faction for a victory, which is really only fair. Of course, as a result of this, and the increased rewards, players are showing up in droves to actually play the format to win. It just so happens that it's easier for kurzicks to come prepared than it is for luxons, because defense is easier to pull off than offense, but that's not a change in this particular update; that's just a natural unbalance with the arena that cannot change, due to the nature of the map.

Once luxons get their acts together, realize that kurzicks are packing little offense and that they should, in turn, pack very little in the way of defense, and start bringing heavy enchant removal, caster shutdown, and maybe some key ranger spirits (tranquility, NR, maybe primal echoes), they'll be breaking through resistance-less kurzick defense easy as pie. Of course, then the pendulum will swing back again, and the kurzicks will start bringing more offense to kill off some of the glass cannon builds that are sure to pop up on the luxon side...etc.

But, the point remains: the update did nothing except draw the attention of more players, players serious about winning and gaining faction, to the arena. The ability of a kurzick team of 4 healers and 4 players with support skills to completely stall a luxon team was always present, it just was boring as hell and not really worth playing 15 (20?) minutes of that for a paltry amount of faction. Now we get more faction, faster; is it any wonder that people care more now? If you want to win, you're going to have to play to win as well; the days of using FA as a testing ground for wacky builds and expecting to win easy by escorting turtles are pretty much done.

The good news is, of course, even with these changes, luxons still are gaining faction faster than they were before, because lost cause games end faster, and they get big rewards for breaking gates and killing people now. If the kurzicks turtle behind green gate and there's absolutely no way of killing them, just farm the gates for a while, yay faction!

vader
17-11-2008, 21:23
Jade Quarry is pretty balanced. It would have been nice to have equal objectives for both red and blue side.
Are you talking about Jade Quarry or Fort Aspenwood? JQ does have equal objectives for both sides.

GrimShade
17-11-2008, 22:00
I was thinking it swung the advantage to the Kurz but Sky is right, it was a rare game that was not decided in the first 5 min. Lux's usually would thrust in and kill quickly or I would sit up and hold a turtle for 5 min while the battle raged on, then they would all leave and the Kurz would have to wait out till we filled the bar, running amber the rest of the time.

What you are seeing is the fact that Kurz win by stopping or stalling the Lux's, healing a gate guy is stalling. As you only have to heal for 5 min a little extra healing will hold that gate. Smart players will just bring a monk though. Lux's can learn that we bring prot monks and they should counter that.

On the flip side my first run through there I was thinking, oh this is nice I just have to keep them back for 5 min, and at the 3 min mark I was thinking we wrapped it up when Gunther was under attack, and we lost moments later. it only takes 1 knowledgeable Lux player to win that side. Usually his name is ___ Four...

It does really suck when the game is too defensive I like to measure a good game by how many kills we get. Kill = Kurz and Balth Faction.

Vela
17-11-2008, 22:47
The update really didn't do anything to "unbalance" FA.................

Yes it did. What this update gives kurzicks is reduced timeframe for them to hold up against luxons with bunch of heals and prots. Earlier they needed to fight a lil' at the very least as just caving inside would not really get them a win. Now, it is not the case. Hence, every single kurz that joins FA gets only heals and prots.


But, the point remains: the update did nothing except draw the attention of more players, players serious about winning and gaining faction, to the arena.

No. it draws people's attention as they need this arena to increase the faction cap. Once won and cap increased, those people will hardly go there ever again.

Simply Kedde
18-11-2008, 00:13
What really makes these low level pvp maps imbalanced is the incredible retardation that dwells in them.
If people actually thought for 2 mins before entering, what the map objectives are and had just an ounce of intelligence, they'd be more balanced and more fun.

Now its still just a million morons slamming their heads against npcs.

Before anyone would try telling me i'm wrong, I'll state te obvious.
Generalization and extreme examples yes. True nonetheless.

Sorale
18-11-2008, 06:41
Are you talking about Jade Quarry or Fort Aspenwood? JQ does have equal objectives for both sides.

Well, I meant Jade Quarry was balanced, and that it would have been nice for Fort Aspenwood to have equal objectives (gank the NPC while running amber on both sides).


What really makes these low level pvp maps imbalanced is the incredible retardation that dwells in them.

Case in point:
Ranger on my team with Meteor Shower, Inferno, Meteor, and Flare.
Ranger on my team without any defensive stances trying to trap in the middle of the luxon warrior NPCs (there are 4 of them swinging)
Warrior on my team with Zealous Benediction, Healing Breeze, and Mending.
Assassins with Flashing Blades, no offense, and the ability to smack talk in local (I CAN TANK YOUR WHOLE TEAM LOLOLOL).

Yeah. I agree.

Uriah_Heep
18-11-2008, 08:29
The time reduction significantly hurt Luxons. Pretty much if the Kurzick side has a healer of some sort that will be enough to hold off for the win. Pre-update as a Luxon I was winning 75% of the matches, now I lose about 90% of them.

Also, I do not agree that almost none of the matches were decided in the last five minutes. Probably about 1/4 or even 1/3 were. Which is a significant number.

Reality Impaired
18-11-2008, 09:38
The time reduction significantly hurt Luxons. Pretty much if the Kurzick side has a healer of some sort that will be enough to hold off for the win. Pre-update as a Luxon I was winning 75% of the matches, now I lose about 90% of them.

Also, I do not agree that almost none of the matches were decided in the last five minutes. Probably about 1/4 or even 1/3 were. Which is a significant number.

Maybe Linsey checked the stats?



Rea

Spazzer
18-11-2008, 13:01
The update really didn't do anything to "unbalance" FA. Games were rarely, if ever, decided in the last 5 minutes
Of course they were.

raspberry jam
18-11-2008, 14:52
Of course they were.Yes.

I have lost count* of the number of times I stood with the valiant Kurzicks in a last ditch (and last second) defense at, and inside even, the green gate, the vile Luxon hordes pouring in, unleashing the power of both of their great (and greatly hideous) beasts at our poor Master Architect... and yet we won the day. Well, some of the days, anyway.

* So at least ten times. Maybe seven.

Vela
18-11-2008, 15:30
FA Kurz side outnumbered FA Lux side last night around 10PM EST by 20:1. There is a reason for that. Just doing FA, I got 80k Kurz factions and almost became a Kurz supporter. Of course, I had to wait through 10+ 'No Ops' each time.

Simply Kedde
18-11-2008, 16:25
Coincidence much I guess eh?

Shadowspawn X
18-11-2008, 21:47
I did play some FA over the week end a couple of hours Sat and Sun each. Here is what I have found:

1) The Luxons are required to be a disciplined fighting force while the Kurzicks are not. Its just my opinion that some don't have the discipline to win. These individuals get into grudge matches outside of the fort and engage in target fixation long after the target is no longer a threat to achieving the main objective. With the shorter duration of the match this behavior is much more devastating than it was before the update. If the Luxon team comes though the inner purple/orange gate and doesn't head down the steps to pressure the green gate immediately they will lose.

2) Aside from discipline the Luxons must be prepared, this means bringing plenty of enchantment removal for the bonds (rend and profane fill this need nicely) but in 90% of the matches this is missing. Every caster should bring some form of enchant removal not just hope someone else does.

3) Complete lack of healing. A good 90% of my matches involved a Luxon team with no heals. Luxons need firepower and force , but the total absence of any monks is not good.

A reasonably prepared team with some focus on the the objective will roll though in 5 minutes against a bad Kurzick team and give a good Kurzick team a nice run for their money.

I played my both my mesmer and ranger with successful runs no class disavantge for either of them. Also rolled an ele but because of his slow casting earth ele was not good, air was great didn't try fire or water.

Noa Brightington
19-11-2008, 04:34
The problem with being on kurz side, you can't just 'turtle'.
Luxon will bash their way in.
If you have a doorbonder worth their salt, yes, they can hold them off, and that's if the luxons don't have an enchant ripper.
But you also have to realize, either the kurz end up letting the luxons bash their way in, and don't run amber, or they have to run amber, which cuts their fighting force.

That's IF their side doesn't have leavers or leechers.
And also if their side doesn't have morons who feel a god awful need to cap the command post.
I swear, I so badly wanna switch sides and KILL whoever caps the posts. And it's ALLWAYS assassins. Every friggin time.
You get an assassin, you can almost garuntee they'll be out capping the posts while you have both mines up front red.
Or even better, you have a mine on your side, and they choose to cap the post as opposed to running amber.

Still, despite all this, I would have to say the kurz have it easier.
I tried playing the luxon side. If you run a monk, the good ones can keep the turtles going. But that means less damage for your side.
I tried doing ele, and could take over mines in 3 spells, but if anyone came after me, I was usually dead meat.
I tried doing as a ranger, but rangers large scale DPS sucks.
I could try running a rit, and some rit spammer/healers are near impossible to take out I've seen. But it's hard to find a good build that you can get used to there.

Overall, I'd have to say I lost far more on luxon side, then kurz.
On one occasion, I've gone against kurz where they had 5 monks, an ele, and a leacher.
We could NOT kill any of the 3 main NPCs, and we spent 2/3rd of the game inside green gate, with both turtles and warriors all active.

Vela
19-11-2008, 05:50
The update simply made this arena off-balance. If u get a win as a lux its just a matter of co-incidence. Any semi-bad kurz team will win this by AFKing.

Sorale
19-11-2008, 08:07
Maybe Linsey checked the stats?

The data was horribly, horribly skewed here. This is because most of the "decent" population didn't go near Fort Aspenwood; there simply wasn't any reason or reward for playing this. Thus, the majority of the players that went there were... uh... not top quality.

Now that there is, it attracts more "intelligent" people (this is relative), so more powerful builds and smarter players start appearing.

Thus, the obvious advantage that the Blue side has is now magnified more than ever since people are actually taking advantage of it.

Qanar
19-11-2008, 08:13
See... All Luxons played FA since it was so easy for them to win there before the update, now they all go crying to their mommy and play JQ...

I love it!

/sarcasm

But yes Im happy JQ gets played again...

Spazzer
19-11-2008, 17:23
The data was horribly, horribly skewed here. This is because most of the "decent" population didn't go near Fort Aspenwood; there simply wasn't any reason or reward for playing this. Thus, the majority of the players that went there were... uh... not top quality.
Pretty much. The only people who mattered on the subject really didn't care about Fort Aspenwood at all, so it was difficult to demonstrate the side bias.

Not to mention Leechers, which will be a real problem here shortly thanks in part to the side bias and the fact that you get a lot of faction for losing.

Vela
19-11-2008, 19:18
The data was horribly, horribly skewed here. This is because most of the "decent" population didn't go near Fort Aspenwood; there simply wasn't any reason or reward for playing this. Thus, the majority of the players that went there were... uh... not top quality.

Now that there is, it attracts more "intelligent" people (this is relative), so more powerful builds and smarter players start appearing.

Thus, the obvious advantage that the Blue side has is now magnified more than ever since people are actually taking advantage of it.
Define the following:
1. Decent
2. Top Quality
3. Intelligent

People who went to FA before update were:
1. Cartographers from both sides.
2. Variety of players during dbl faction weekends.

People who are going to FA after update are:
1. Kurzicks for quick faction gains.
2. Kurz Leechers
3. Luxons determined to get their 5k cap increase.

Decency, quality or intelligence have nothing to do with any of these. I see the same type of builds being played there as before with same tactics. So smart did not become smarter and morons remained hmm.. morons? Hence, your argument fails.

Personally, I have played both sides during dbl factions and after the update. I also have done my share of carto there.

Buddah
20-11-2008, 08:37
A chunk of my guild for the past 2-3 months have passed their free time in FA. They even get me in there from time to time. There have been times we've had enough to not even sync and still get 3-4 of on a team.


Real men play Jade Quarry.

I prefer JQ over FA as well.

Still JQ needs some tweaks. The Dark Aura bombers capping shrines is pretty lame. Really should be a delay on the cap to check for a living player in range. That way the bomber still works, but they now need a teammate to get the cap.

GrimShade
20-11-2008, 23:09
Of course they were.

Ya...every Kurz win was decided in the last 5 min...

Quality people in FA and JQ are people who know their job and do it. The monk who camps the turtle or gate guard or the Elly who solo caps a mine and runs amber, or runs in wipes a gate and suicides as the death re-charges the Mana pool faster than waiting it out, or the ranger who sits up on the shoulder interrupting the turtle so it won’t move. These are all good rolls and show you know what you are doing.

Non-quality are Luxons who chase others off into the back area and keep themselves out of the fight, or the Kurz who caps the Command Post and ignores the mines behind it leaving an open spawn place for the Lux’s. Granted there are many others but you get the idea.

I wouldn’t doubt at this point that Kurz have a better advantage, the Lux’s do have to be more on point to win, but as they really do just have an easier job it shouldn’t be that hard. I’ll always say it as I have faced him many times, it takes one good elly to win the Lux side (all others can stink) but it takes a few good Kurz to win the Kurz side. Every match where you have competent nukers on the Lux’s side you have a short match.

On both sides the better players are moving to JQ as that arena is more balanced in the first place and it’s much more interesting as a game IMO.



I prefer JQ over FA as well.

Still JQ needs some tweaks. The Dark Aura bombers capping shrines is pretty lame. Really should be a delay on the cap to check for a living player in range. That way the bomber still works, but they now need a teammate to get the cap.

Agreed, it would be nice as the necys and rangers cap by merely wiping, but it throws the advantage strait to the Ellys who can wipe the group and be at 25 health at the point everything is dead, which was the basis of my old build for JQ, now I think I'll move to water elly so after I cap I can slow the nec down as he runs in to suicide, or I'll move back to my ranger in there.

Also FA moved to 10 blath per kill while JQ is at 5. I assume this was because JQ had a higher body count. Well now that Monks have invaded this isn't as true, I'd like to see both move to 10 balth.

Sorale
20-11-2008, 23:14
Vela, you can't tell me the amount of people that actually play normal builds there that work hasn't gone up?

Instead of seeing a match with really bad builds + afkers, we now see people with builds that have more thought behind them more often than not.

I'm not saying the morons disappeared, I'm just saying that overall, it's less bad there.


The problem with being on kurz side, you can't just 'turtle'.

Shield of Absorption makes turtling possible. Recharge and duration let you keep up things while you heal it. Bonders are bad.