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Wethospu
28-11-2008, 12:16
I have yet to understand what's so good and cool in "cap, cap, cap" strategy which most ABers seem to love.

I will first define two strategies:
Capping: Focus on capping, avoid battles
Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible

Simple situation:
Luxon squad captures a shrine. Kurzick squad captures a shrine.

Cap strategy: Both run past each other and go cap. Result: Equal shrines
Kill strategy: One squad kills the other one. Result: Equal shrines, points from killing and enemy squad disabled for a while.


According to this, cap strategy is low risk, low reward. And killing strategy is high risk (low if you are good), high reward.


And second thing which I can't understand. Once our side is losing, people start screaming "cap more!!!". If we focus on capturing, we can only win if they fail with killing strategy. And as we are already losing, I doubt they use bad strategies.

EmptySkull
28-11-2008, 15:04
Having capped flags gets you points faster than killing.


Winning the Battle: To win a battle the winning side has to accumulate 500 points before the other side. Accumulating points can be done in two ways:


Killing players of the opposing faction. 3 points are added per kill.
Holding a control point: From the start of the match, every 7 seconds the game checks to see how many control points a side holds. 1 point is added to a side's score for every control point that side holds when the game checks.


In AB capping the flag is the key. It could take a lot longer than 7 seconds to kill someone. And you would only get 3 points. But if you hold 3 flags when the game checks, you get 3 points every 7 secs. And if you hold 4, 5, or 6(which is what you will hold if the opposing team is fighting, not capping) then you get 4,5,6 points every 7 secs.

Nathardia
28-11-2008, 15:18
Just killing is bad strategy because you do not gain points fast enough to win. That said, the trick is not only to cap, but to defend or offend shrines when required as well; especially strategically points like the res shrines. Also, avoid fighting the mob, because that's a pointless fight.

Wethospu
28-11-2008, 16:29
--In AB capping the flag is the key. It could take a lot longer than 7 seconds to kill someone. And you would only get 3 points. But if you hold 3 flags when the game checks, you get 3 points every 7 secs. And if you hold 4, 5, or 6(which is what you will hold if the opposing team is fighting, not capping) then you get 4,5,6 points every 7 secs.

Ok, what when both teams are capping? Just run around? Isn't that pretty boring and stupid?
And what if you have 8 vs 4 and you could easily kill them fast? Split and go cap shrines?
And what about my example situation?


Just killing is bad strategy because you do not gain points fast enough to win. That said, the trick is not only to cap, but to defend or offend shrines when required as well; especially strategically points like the res shrines. Also, avoid fighting the mob, because that's a pointless fight.

I would be very happy if you even tried to answer to my questions.

Mog Wai
28-11-2008, 17:47
I have yet to understand what's so good and cool in "cap, cap, cap" strategy which most ABers seem to love.
I will first define two strategies:
Capping: Focus on capping, avoid battles
Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible
Simple situation:
Luxon squad captures a shrine. Kurzick squad captures a shrine.
Cap strategy: Both run past each other and go cap. Result: Equal shrines
Kill strategy: One squad kills the other one. Result: Equal shrines, points from killing and enemy squad disabled for a while.
According to this, cap strategy is low risk, low reward. And killing strategy is high risk (low if you are good), high reward.
And second thing which I can't understand. Once our side is losing, people start screaming "cap more!!!". If we focus on capturing, we can only win if they fail with killing strategy. And as we are already losing, I doubt they fail with killing strategy in case they even use it.
There is lower reward in just killing then capping. The faster you cap the shrines, the quicker your points accumulate. Your opinion that there is low reward in capping is wrong.

shawn
28-11-2008, 17:56
I don't think you guys are quite getting what he means.

A luxon team and a kurzick team both cap a shrine. They run circles around each other, and just keep capping over each other. There's no gain.

In the second scenario, both teams cap the shrines like before, but then I get our team to charge the luxons, utterly destroy their faces, cap over their shrine, and then move over to cap the next one. We're up two shrines compared to the previous example.

Wethospu
28-11-2008, 18:44
There is lower reward in just killing then capping. The faster you cap the shrines, the quicker your points accumulate. Your opinion that there is low reward in capping is wrong.

Wait an one burning second. What is the other team doing while you cap? Good question in deed.



And thanks Shawn, maybe your better wording will make people understand my first post. :)

Nathardia
28-11-2008, 18:57
And thanks Shawn, maybe your better wording will make people understand my first post. :)

That's what I said.


That said, the trick is not only to cap, but to defend or offend shrines when required as well;
This means killing the opposing team; thus not running circles around them.

Alaris
28-11-2008, 19:09
It's a good question, but I think you don't have the right tradeoff.

Either strategy will give a tie if both teams are matched in strength. The point here is that you're comparing the rewards for capping vs killing.

Pro's for capping:
1) By avoiding fights, you can run faster to the other shrines and cap them faster.
2) You also can bring specialized builds to that effect.
3) You can also split more.

Pro's for killing:
1) You get points for killing enemies.
2) You can still cap, but at a slower rate.

So in the example, when the capping team meets the killing team in the middle, the killing team will start casting offensive spells. They might kill 1 or 2 opposite team members. But they will have to stop running in order to do so, or even run back towards the shrine they already capped in order to get the kill.

Meanwhile, the capping team keeps the original shrine, and might even have enough time to at least disable the other shrine. Thus they gain a shrine advantage.

So basically, it's not true that you can cap & kill without trade-off.

shawn
28-11-2008, 19:39
I have no idea how you figure that you can run faster and split more if you're capping, nor how a "specialized build" for capping is any different from a normal one. Why the hell would you ever not bring a speed boost in AB? By killing people capping certain shrines, you get the Battle Cry bonus which increases your run speed to +25%. That plus the run boosts everyone should have anyway, means there's hardly any time lost killing people and capping their shrines.

And you can "split more?" What? Again I don't see how choosing to kill teams or avoid them has any bearing on this. I don't need a specific 'capping build' to go split off and solo a ranger shrine on my warrior, for god sakes. Hell, you don't even need a self heal for that, just dodge their attacks while going in and/or position a post between them and you.

And I don't care what kind of build you have, you won't get more accomplished by being able to 'split more,' because you'll be taking so many skills to increase your survivability or mobility you won't be able to kill a damn thing. Eg: Know who wins between a tank w/mo and a smart warrior with a good build and no self heal? The latter.

Just.. seriously. What.
"Ok, got that shrine, let's move onto the next one! Oh wait, there's a team that's moving in to cap it! Let's just completely ignore them, let them finish capping it, and move onto the next one!"
Seriously. You have got to be joking me.

Alaris
28-11-2008, 20:29
Just.. seriously. What. Seriously. You have got to be joking me.

Shawn... Please tell us all where I have made mistakes. Because, from your explanation, I just don't get it. Perhaps I have missed something.


About builds.

Is it fair to say that overall, there is no one build that both kills AND caps better in AB than every other build you could possibly thing of? Can we at least agree that if you spec for killing players, you might not bring the exact same skills than if you spec for capping shrines? Unless you're arguing that AB players are so bad, you could hamstorm them and win, in which case I see no point arguing. In that case, build is irrelevant. But you did say that a good build beats a bad one, so build matters, right?

So a capping build beats a killing build at capping, and a killing build beats a capping build at killing, right?


About running.

If you have to choose between running after people, or after running to the next shrine, that's a trade-off right there. You can't run towards both if they are in different directions.


About survivability.

For capping, that's irrelevant. As a splinter barrager capper, I really couldn't care for it. The only thing I had to survive was other players, and I just avoided them. I ran around solo capping. Also, NPCs have predictable attacks, so it's far easier to bring the right skills to counter that. No meta here.


About defending shrines against a team

In the time the team of 2-3 people cap the shrine I abandoned, the 2-3 solo shrine cappers will likely cap 2 shrines (and a third on the way). The more people clump, the less they can cap unattended shrines. In the extreme, if one side moves as a 12-person mass, that means that they can control at most 1-2 shrines at a time. As soon as they leave a shrine, the opposing team can cap it.

Do the math. Of course, there's some merit trying to maintain shrines that you capped, but that brings up some calculation of how much resources for how much gain, hence a tradeoff again. If you leave 1 team to defend a shrine, then that's 1 team that won't be capping.

EmptySkull
28-11-2008, 21:01
Well I don't think you should get totally myopic with capping. I just think you should go into match with primary goal as capping.

A lot of things (should) influence your tactics. Map, Opponents, understanding of tactics/plan of opponents, if they have a plan at all. Some maps if you are in opposing factions territory and take their advantageous shrines/flags, you can then hold them with one squad to win. That is if the whole opposing team doesn't get together and push you out. But even if they do that leaves flags to be capped by your remaining team.

What is happening, imho, is when people start screaming cap cap cap, and you just cant gain an advantage is that your team is just outmatched. For whatever reason it may be. And it's easy to blame other people for not capping, than to accept defeat.

Wethospu
28-11-2008, 21:20
Well, this is what I try to run in AB:
CripSlash
FireEle
Midline (Ranger, Mesm, something)
Monk

Cleaning shrines isn't really a problem with one FireEle. And it can also deal decent damage so not losing very much.
Because NPC's are so weak you really shouldn't create a build around them.

I get called noob because of being aggressive in AB (as an example, in my example situation). I made this topic because I don't understand the point of just capping.
So I'm looking an explanation why people love capping when in my example situation killing is clearly superior. Other example could be that your squad defends a shrine. Enemy squad comes. Your squad kills it quickly (as an example teams with no Monk). No shrines lost or gained, points from killing and enemy down.

And mobbing has nothing to do with this topic. :/



----

How would you define a primary goal? A thing which you try to do in all cases? A thing which you try to do when it's the best choice?
Why killing can't be a primary goal?


And please, I'm not interested in hearing "do X and do Y".
I'm interested in knowing why people swear in the name of cap
Is it because AB is just so fail and people fail? Or that it's clearly a superior tactic?

Mog Wai
28-11-2008, 21:34
I think we need to dumb this down even further. Killing other players takes longer than killing the NPCs at the shrines. Why waste time on killing players which results in less points over capping each shrine quickly?

Its a flip of the coin, you either make a build to cap or kill players. If you make the build to kill players,you will cap slower meaning slower points. Then the opposite for capping teams.

I play an Fire Ele in AB and I cap like crazy!

EmptySkull
28-11-2008, 21:36
.....



How would you define a primary goal? A thing which you try to do in all cases? A thing which you try to do when it's the best choice?
Why killing can't be a primary goal?

...

Because AB to GW is Capture the flag. Controlling territories. It scores you more points. And if you spend 15 mins trying to kill one squad, that has control of the shrine you're at, and they have a good monk then you just wasted 15 mins getting no kills and they got 128 points. The whole goal is capping the flag. That is the primary.

So I don't know what else to say. But Ab is about capping flags. Sure there can be stale mates. But that is because both teams are doing what they are supposed to do, cap flags. But if you run into a team that one squad is running around and fighting and you're team is all capping you will win. Because the points you gain from holding the flags will be higher than the few kills that kill squad gets.

shawn
28-11-2008, 22:16
Shawn... Please tell us all where I have made mistakes. Because, from your explanation, I just don't get it. Perhaps I have missed something.
----
If you have to choose between running after people, or after running to the next shrine, that's a trade-off right there. You can't run towards both if they are in different directions.
Ok, allow me to draw a diagram. What I'm seeing you "shrine capper" advocates describe is scenario 1, in which you don't engage the enemy and just run around and cap shrines. And scenario 2 is what you should be doing.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/597/72997459iu2.png


As an added bonus I did one for a three shrine scenario too, in which avoiding fighting will also leave you at a disadvantage. This is how Saltspray Beach often starts out, especially if your teammates are bad and don't cap the res. (Although for simplicity's sake I'm assuming the opposing res shrine cappers run off elsewhere rather than try to stupidly gang up and 8v4 you.)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6119/76879398vm3.png



It's easy to tell I'm rather bored, huh.

Alaris
28-11-2008, 22:22
Well I don't think you should get totally myopic with capping. I just think you should go into match with primary goal as capping.

Agreed.

So killing is worthwhile if you see a weak target and you know, from experience, that it'll be a quick kill.

But usually, extended fights means that you are wasting time.

Ryuujinx
28-11-2008, 23:55
I subscribe to shawns method. Run. cap Shrine A. Start Running to Shrine B. Encounter Group X. Roflstomp them. Process to cap shrine B. Move on.

Shrine advantage yay!

There's also another advantage to wiping a squad on your way to another one. Not only does it give you an immediate advantage, it gives you a long term one as well, they get a few seconds of "I'm dead" and get warped to their base or es shrine, That's more time they have to spend getting to another shrine and possibly a scenario of getting a 2 shrine advantage over them simply by wiping one of their teams.

Wethospu
29-11-2008, 07:30
@Mog: Killing players actually kills them and makes them DEAD. DEAD MEN won't cap! One squad with fire ele can easily clean a shrine in several seconds. Maybe a team specified for capping can do it few seconds faster. But you know, you should improve what is weak, not what is already good.

@Empty: So is it reasonable to run 15 minutes trying to find a free shrine?
I think the goal of AB is to get points. Controlling shrines gives points, killing gives points.
And when you kill someone you most likely finish off whole squad or make them flee.
When a squad is down or running you most likely get a shrine advantage.
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/342/111md9.png

@shawn: Leet paintz :)

@Alaris: In 4v4 situation, both squads are fighting and not capping. So if you aren't much behind shrines, it's not actually waste of time at all. Just more interesting way to keep shrines equal.



But so, question still remains. Why cap,cap,cap tactic is so popular?

Ryuujinx
29-11-2008, 12:59
Time for my leet paint skillz. This is an entire match, assuming a balanced map.

So, the "map"
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/1.jpg
Start of the match:
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/2.jpg
match starts, everyone runs to closest shrine caps and goes to next shrine to cap.
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/3.jpg
1 Team from blue starts wiping, 2 escape. 1 Team from red starts wiping, 1 escapes, other 2 teams are in a stalemate. Surviving teams cap
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/4.jpg
Due to 6v5, center skirmish is resolved, blue caps quickly. Surviving red team goes to cap a point, blue responds and sends one team back to defend. Blue team goes to cap, resed red members defend. Blue sends other 2 to begin capping, starts to cap.
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/5.jpg
Blue has advantage on fight 4v3, blue wins and caps. One team proceeds to last red point to cap, red defends, blue collapses on them. Last blue team is victorious and proceeds to cap outside point.
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/6.jpg
Blue wins 8v4, loses 1 person, sends 4 to defend middle, red assaults middle and outside.
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/7.jpg
blue defends and wins due to NPC advantage. Blue sets one team on each closest base, blue only has to keep these bases for 1 minute and it's GG.
http://www.ryuujinx.com/stuff/dewey/images/abfight/8.jpg

If you're a better team, it shortens the match significantly, if you're evenly matched it allows you to utilize splitting and collapsing effectively to cause squad wipes and shrine advantage. I made it skewed to keep it short, but a game where both teams actually tried to wipe the team on the way to their next target makes a very dynamic and interesting game. As opposed to playing PvE with points.

Wethospu
29-11-2008, 13:36
I think this thread is full of leetness.
Anyone bored enough to simulate match with cap tactic? :)

Simply Kedde
29-11-2008, 23:15
Hm, guess I'm late.

So ab is srs bssns.

If about 90% of the players there would stop failing at basic things like logic discussing strategies for the format might be a good idea.

But seeing as that's not the case, you just bring your decent friends and roll whoever you encounter and make decisions that are logically putting you at an advantage.
That plus hope your teammates are less retarded than the opposing side.

Akirai Annuvil
30-11-2008, 00:32
Pro tip: Don't cap. Rush in for the kill instead.

Srs note: Get a few kills in while capping. Especially against smaller (<5) teams it puts you at a very good advantage and normally causes a retreat.

Ryuujinx
30-11-2008, 02:35
Hm, guess I'm late.

So ab is srs bssns.

Very. We have diagrams and everything. Next someone will have an instructional video on how to play.

shawn
30-11-2008, 03:28
That's not a bad idea.
I should dig out my digital camera..

Ryuujinx
30-11-2008, 04:04
That's not a bad idea.
I should dig out my digital camera..

real life AB. Using Paintball.

Simply Kedde
30-11-2008, 12:29
Can I bring hand grenades?

Ryuujinx
30-11-2008, 13:24
Can I bring hand grenades?

You can bring paint hand grenades. But if you do you can only bring a pistol paintball gun. you'll be like a fire ele. :p

EmptySkull
01-12-2008, 06:01
I'm not saying don't fight when you have too. I'm saying not to fight only and ignore capping.



Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible

Not sure if you meant kill kill kill and cap if you feel like it. That is just as bad as cap cap cap and run like a scared 9 year old when faced with a fight.

If all you do with your squad is kill or focus on killing then you will lose. Even if you wanted to focus on killing you will need a guild/alliance/friend squad to do this. With the randomness nature of AB the only real tactic that can be used is Cap and kill when necessary.

One thing to note in all the nice diagrams is that a flag is capped after the killing is done. That is what wins AB. Focusing on killing alone will not win in AB.

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 08:08
There is a difference between killing and fighting. Killing actually kills stuff when fighting just tries. So in my killing tactic, you go to cap when you can't achieve kills in reasonable amount of time (that's the "smart" part).

I don't see how focusing on killing loses games. If you can kill when necessary while capping, you can also cap necessary while killing. I think we have already shown how killing actually does something.
It's time for paintz!
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2667/evildt8.png

This is how I form a team in AB (or at least try). Get a monk, a melee, a fire ele and something.
Ask them to ping their build. If not -> kick
If something is horribly wrong, ask for a skill change.
Go go!

Most of the teams I do this way actually kill something and do things.

EmptySkull
01-12-2008, 13:05
I am not arguing against fighting. But even in your drawing you have a flag that is capped after you kill.

I am now arguing that the quoted statement is not a valid tactic in AB.



Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible

So if your kill strategy fails, you should go cap? hUH?

O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 14:14
@Mog: Killing players actually kills them and makes them DEAD. DEAD MEN won't cap! One squad with fire ele can easily clean a shrine in several seconds. Maybe a team specified for capping can do it few seconds faster. But you know, you should improve what is weak, not what is already good.

Umm no.

So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping. You are assuming that all of their other teammates aren't capping or your teammates are following the same tactics that you are, killing players. You cannot assume that. The best bet is to go for the shrines, killing the NPCs and only fighting small skirmishes when needed.

The bottom line is that its easier to cap the shrines then kill players. Why go for the harder of the two?

Simply Kedde
01-12-2008, 14:24
Because if your team is anywhere near decent, you'll roll 99% of the teams people have in AB.
That's part of why it's effective.

raspberry jam
01-12-2008, 14:26
Cap tactic is popular because it is reliable. When a good player sees an opportunity to fight he can pretty reliably say that it's going to be one of:

* We will win (fight)
* We will win, but it will take ages (i.e. enemies tank you) and we can ignore them (avoid)
* They will win, and there is no point in fighting (avoid)
* They will win, but I/we alone can hold them up for long enough to make it worth while/allow reinforcements to arrive (fight)
* It's going to be even (fight or avoid depending on situation)

When a bad player sees an opportunity to fight, he sees:

* Enemies ahead, outcome of battle unknown

In that situation you can choose to fight and maybe (probably) give the enemy a shrine advantage, or, you can cap the next shrine faster than the enemy and slowly build up an advantage. After all, since most players have more PvE experience than PvP such, they are more used to fighting NPCs than other players.

In other words it's popular because people are bad, but good enough to realize that they are bad.


Because AB to GW is Capture the flag. Controlling territories.Please don't use the term "capture the flag" unless you actually know what it means.

Akirai Annuvil
01-12-2008, 15:11
So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping.

Killing 4 players means gaining uuh 12 points, iirc. It takes 7 seconds to gain 1 point from capping a shrine. Let's say it takes 7 seconds to cap a shrine. Assuming nobody recaps the shrines you've capped, it would still take ~30 seconds to even out the score. So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.
If it takes longer than that, the gains are impossible to quantify. The opposing team loses out on, what, 40 seconds of capping though, just because of the respawn timer.

Whatever though. Quite literally everyone's who's posted in this thread so far is in agreeance that you occasionally should try and score some kills in AB. How often and how big seems mostly dependant on personal skill.

shawn
01-12-2008, 15:18
O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.Yeah, it's AB, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that if I were to make a team on alliance chat, that we wouldn't be dying to the tank w/mos and meteor shower rangers on the other team.

Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

Alaris
01-12-2008, 15:45
I get it... I just need the roflstomp build. Anyone can ping that pls?


Ok, allow me to draw a diagram.

It's easy to tell I'm rather bored, huh.

Diagram shows exactly what you said in words, thus it is 100% redundant.

The part I don't get is the part where you always rolfstomp the enemy. How does that work?


I subscribe to shawns method. Run. cap Shrine A. Start Running to Shrine B. Encounter Group X. Roflstomp them. Process to cap shrine B. Move on.

I tried to look for the Roflstomp build on pvxwiki. Could you ping it pls?


So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.

Roflstomp build again? I mean, that's killing 4 in 30 secs *without losing a team member*


Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

Mmmmm, talking strategy assuming your team is running roflstomp, and the other is running lolhamstormechomendingftl.

EmptySkull
01-12-2008, 15:46
Cap tactic is popular because it is reliable.

I disagree. Most people use cap tactics because it is the primary goal of AB.



When a good player sees an opportunity to fight he can pretty reliably say that it's going to be one of:

* We will win (fight)
* We will win, but it will take ages (i.e. enemies tank you) and we can ignore them (avoid)
* They will win, and there is no point in fighting (avoid)
* They will win, but I/we alone can hold them up for long enough to make it worth while/allow reinforcements to arrive (fight)
* It's going to be even (fight or avoid depending on situation)

When a bad player sees an opportunity to fight, he sees:

* Enemies ahead, outcome of battle unknown

In that situation you can choose to fight and maybe (probably) give the enemy a shrine advantage, or, you can cap the next shrine faster than the enemy and slowly build up an advantage. After all, since most players have more PvE experience than PvP such, they are more used to fighting NPCs than other players.

Mostly right. ONLY if you take a guild/alliance/friend squad with Vent/TS you can make those decisions as a team.
But if you join in a random group with the other 2 squads probably random people, there is no real tactics.


In other words it's popular because people are bad, but good enough to realize that they are bad.

hmmmf, WOW!


Please don't use the term "capture the flag" unless you actually know what it means.

What are you talking about. I know what capture the flag means. I've been playing video games before you were even a itch in your daddy's pants! edit: I've forgotten more about capture the flag than you have ever learned about gaming.


Yeah, it's AB, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that if I were to make a team on alliance chat, that we wouldn't be dying to the tank w/mos and meteor shower rangers on the other team.

Of course I realize not everyone has the luxury of being in an alliance of top 10 guilds, but come on. When 95% of your opponents run ridiculous **** like the aforementioned meteor shower rangers, then I'm pretty sure that even most people on this forum can win. Unless of course you're luxon, in which case I pity you if you're playing when Snuff from [rawr] decides to take us luxon stomping.

Yeah I understand that when you have an good squad/team build with good communication that you can win most of the time. But you still can't depend that the other 8 people are gonna go around capping shrines while you and your squad just goes and kills. And now matter how good you 4 man squad is, If the opposing team is mobbing you gonna get wiped or at least have to retreat to flags you already have capped. You will lose.

I do think we all are basically arguing for the same thing. As in all kinds of PvP you need some basic skill in how to make/use a build. And good skills working with a team. Unless you don't do either of those then fail.

When it comes to AB you need to consider the map and your team build to be the most successful as a squad. Bring a good build for what you want to do as a squad. And continue to adjust what you are doing one the fly during the match to counter what the opposing team is doing. But as with all things requiring a team. Your team is only as strong as your weakest link.

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 16:29
Killing 4 players means gaining uuh 12 points, iirc. It takes 7 seconds to gain 1 point from capping a shrine. Let's say it takes 7 seconds to cap a shrine. Assuming nobody recaps the shrines you've capped, it would still take ~30 seconds to even out the score. So as long as you can kill 4 players within 30 seconds you've gained yourself an absolute, undisputable advantage.
If it takes longer than that, the gains are impossible to quantify. The opposing team loses out on, what, 40 seconds of capping though, just because of the respawn timer.
You cannot go into AB assuming that it only takes 30 seconds to kill four targets. The time it takes to kill a player or kill a team is not set in stone. My ele build I run in AB can kill the Master of damage in 5 seconds, does that mean I can assume it takes a similar amount of time to kill a player? No you cannot assume that. You can however make the assumption on how quickly you can cap a shrine with four people. NPC's are easily killed in what, 10 to 15 seconds depending on your team's build? Again, its all based on efficiencies and what is guaranteed to work. The basic problem with going with a team that is built to kill players is that you arent taking into consideration your other 8 members and the other eight opponents. While you are killing, they could be capping.


Whatever though. Quite literally everyone's who's posted in this thread so far is in agreeance that you occasionally should try and score some kills in AB.
Correct

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 18:24
I am not arguing against fighting. But even in your drawing you have a flag that is capped after you kill.

That's the whole point of my mentioned tactics and that's why killing gives an advantage. But as you can see, focusing on capping isn't giving an advantage.


I am now arguing that the quoted statement is not a valid tactic in AB.

You agree with picture but don't agree with strategy in it? Or what??


So if your kill strategy fails, you should go cap? hUH?

Yes, if you see an enemy which you can't kill then you shouldn't try to kill it.


O and I love how in everyone's drawing they assume they win their skirmish when fighting. Because in your scenario, if you lose that skirmish it's checkmate.

That's the whole point of PvP.


Umm no.

So what if you killed 4 players, you still took more time killing players while their other teammates are capping.

Guess what, both teams have 3 squads. My squad gained an advantage by killing their squad.


You are assuming that all of their other teammates aren't capping or your teammates are following the same tactics that you are, killing players. You cannot assume that.

Nope, I haven't talked anything about other squads. If all other squads were capping then we still got an advantage.


The best bet is to go for the shrines, killing the NPCs and only fighting small skirmishes when needed.

The bottom line is that its easier to cap the shrines then kill players. Why go for the harder of the two?

As we have pointed out, killing gives an advantage. If you are bad then you should lose. That's how it works.



--Mmmmm, talking strategy assuming your team is running roflstomp, and the other is running lolhamstormechomendingftl.

Actually, roflstomping isn't the point here. Even though squads had similar builds, killing is still effective.
If things are even it doesn't really matter if the fight takes 3 hours. Your squad is against their squad. Both squads aren't capping. It's not like you try to kill their squad and they multiply and half of them go to capping and half stay fighting.

It's pretty simple. 12 players in both sides. 4 fighting in both sides. 12 - 4 = 8. 8 free players in both sides.
Now if we go to advanced stuff, fight lasting forever can give an advantage. As an example if you have more shrines and your team isn't failing too much.


I disagree. Most people use cap tactics because it is the primary goal of AB.

Nope, the primary goal is winning game. You win the game by getting an advantage. As we have showed, killing gives an advantage.


Mostly right. ONLY if you take a guild/alliance/friend squad with Vent/TS you can make those decisions as a team.
But if you join in a random group with the other 2 squads probably random people, there is no real tactics.

I make PuG teams almost every day. Of course you can't get decent people all the time. But we still mostly roll because enemy has more creative stuff.



--Yeah I understand that when you have an good squad/team build with good communication that you can win most of the time.

Because skill level of AB is so low, this isn't necessary.


But you still can't depend that the other 8 people are gonna go around capping shrines while you and your squad just goes and kills. And now matter how good you 4 man squad is, If the opposing team is mobbing you gonna get wiped or at least have to retreat to flags you already have capped. You will lose.

I don't know what magic tricks I/we must do that you understand what tactic we are talking about. I thought those pictures were pretty clear.
Smart killing DOESN'T mean "Oh lulz, waz daz mobz?? hehe die mobz upz we deadz".



--The basic problem with going with a team that is built to kill players is that you arent taking into consideration your other 8 members and the other eight opponents. While you are killing, they could be capping.--

You don't build teams to cap. Usually you build one character to clear shrines and that's the fire-ele. Now you got an ultimate squad, clears a shrine fast and can also achive kills!

While you kill, you get an advantage. As we have pointed in many pictures (and probably in a text too), you capture a shrine after it.
As we have pointed in many pictures (and probably in a text too), capping doesn't achieve much. So if they want to cap while your squad is getting an advantage, it's their loss.

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 19:11
lol its like talking to a brick wall. There is ZERO advantages to "killing". Why do you think its soo easy to beat mobs? Because you are capping around them and the time it take to kill players is more than the time it takes to cap multiple shrines.

I dont get why second grade math is so difficult for some people. It takes longer to kill players than it does to cap. Its that simple.

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 19:28
You should try talking to me.

Tell me, what's wrong in shawn's picture? Or can't you understand it?
It CLEARLY shows how killing gives an advantage.

And no, we aren't talking about mobs here.


I can understand your point though. Draw me in flame war and get this topic closed. Good try!

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 19:58
You should try talking to me.
Tell me, what's wrong in shawn's picture? Or can't you understand it?
It CLEARLY shows how killing gives an advantage.
And no, we aren't talking about mobs here.
I can understand your point though. Draw me in flame war and get this topic closed. Good try!
Its only clear to the individuals who agree with him. Its a joke to the people who see the flaw, which is big. I will say it again, killing players takes longer than capping. The only thing this tactic does is kills players who have already capped a shrine. So you chase them down, kill them, run to cap a shrine. Then rinse and repeat. You spend most of the time chasing and killing rather than gaining points.

Another issue: you run across a few tanks. Within the few seconds it takes you to realize you are wasting your time, you could have been capping shrines. All of these seconds matter.

Now the only thing that makes sense is to stay at a shrine when you see opponents running up to cap it. Now that makes sense but technically, that is a capping tactic. Purposely not hunting down players or mobbing is capping by my own definition.

Akirai Annuvil
01-12-2008, 20:16
I dont get why second grade math is so difficult for some people. It takes longer to kill players than it does to cap. Its that simple.
In general I score the most points capping and killing off everyone worse than me on route. I normally get about 1 kill for every cap without much of a slow down (these kills take <=10 seconds).
Most people consider this a lot and would probably qualify it as a killing strategy as I kill more people than I run past. I'm fairly sure however I score more points than if I just capped.
In general, kill when you've got a good chance of getting the kill. The +3 points and defensive value of one enemy down is worth the small downtime. The better you are, the more chances you have to kill, so the more killing you should do.

It's a really simple principle. Anyone who disagrees please shoutout with a little bit of luck I'll check again and even explain it further.

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 20:17
So in shawn's picture you would pick the one which doesn't accomplish anything?

Akirai Annuvil
01-12-2008, 20:30
"In general, kill when you've got a good chance of getting the kill."
Despite shawn's leet pain skillz I find it somewhat hard to judge whether the blue pixels are better than the red pixels. Presuming I'm better, I'd bash their heads in. Presuming I'm not, I wouldn't. Better to live and let live than to kill and fail.

(The paintjobs are bad by the way. Not even ryuu's depicts a match accurately.)

EmptySkull
01-12-2008, 20:36
So in shawn's picture you would pick the one which doesn't accomplish anything?

Because Shawn's pictures are oversimplified scenarios. While they are very good pictures(nice paint job), that's about it. You can't count on a skirmish to be so simple. You know you are gonna win? What about when you face a larger group, your 4 squad against and 5,6,7,8 or 12 mob. What if when taking down that 4 squad you lose one of you squad? To many variables to think those diagrams are the way its gonna happen every time.

So for me:

Primary goal cap, cap, cap.
Fight when I have advantage
Avoid when I don't.
cap cap cap


How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each kills each other the same. The last remaining variable is points from shrines. That is what wins in AB.

Alaris
01-12-2008, 20:38
So in shawn's picture you would pick the one which doesn't accomplish anything?

Perhaps a better question is "which in Shawn's picture accomplishes nothing?"

To which I'd reply, Shawn's picture.

It convinces those who are already convinced, while not convincing anyone who's not already convinced. Hence it accomplishes nothing.

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 20:48
Actually, that's a real situation.
It happens at the beginning of several maps.
Both squads cap their shrines. And either pass or fight.
The picture isn't showing that you always win. It's showing that killing achieves something.

Surely they are simplified (every match is different by the way) but if you choose bad tactic in simplified situation, how can you choose a right tactic in real situation when it's a lot more complex?

So your primary goal is cap. Why would you choose killing over capping then? I would say that your primaly goal is killing when you have an advantage. It is the one which overrides the other after all. Or is capping primary goal and killing when advantage the most primary goal?

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 20:55
Because Shawn's pictures are oversimplified scenarios. While they are very good pictures(nice paint job), that's about it. You can't count on a skirmish to be so simple. You know you are gonna win? What about when you face a larger group, your 4 squad against and 5,6,7,8 or 12 mob. What if when taking down that 4 squad you lose one of you squad? To many variables to think those diagrams are the way its gonna happen every time.
So for me:

Primary goal cap, cap, cap.
Fight when I have advantage
Avoid when I don't.
cap cap cap

How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each kills each other the same. The last remaining variable is points from shrines. That is what wins in AB.
Holy ****, now this person knows what he is talking about. Great example on what happens when your team dies. If you cant cap by yourself, you are useless.


Perhaps a better question is "which in Shawn's picture accomplishes nothing?"
To which I'd reply, Shawn's picture.
It convinces those who are already convinced, while not convincing anyone who's not already convinced. Hence it accomplishes nothing.
exactly!

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 21:25
How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each caps shrines the same. Result? I will leave it as an exercise for you all!

@Mog: So Monks are useless in AB? And I don't see the example. One from the squad dies? Well, rest 3 can do fine without the forth.


I think we have pretty clearly showed what happens when both teams just cap. That's a lot away from achieving something. Of course it achieves something if your capping build is faster than others but achieving by killing is a lot faster.

And no, killing doesn't become bad because of all stupid ways how you can fail with it.

Mog Wai
01-12-2008, 21:31
You need to learn how to quote.


How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each caps shrines the same. Result? I will leave it as an exercise for you all!
wait what?

@Mog: So Monks are useless in AB? And I don't see the example. One from the squad dies? Well, rest 3 can do fine without the forth.
Yes monks are useless in AB.

I think we have pretty clearly showed what happens when both teams just cap. That's a lot away from achieving something.
what? no you proved your method doesnt work. Im getting a headache reading this post.

Wethospu
01-12-2008, 21:36
I can see it from your reply.

So what do you do when a squad slows you down and kills you in 5 seconds?

And capping isn't my method. I wish you could actually try discuss with me. You know, arguments and that kind of stuff and not just "I like it my way". Or does it just work for you?

Ryuujinx
02-12-2008, 00:18
(The paintjobs are bad by the way. Not even ryuu's depicts a match accurately.)

I started with the intention of accurately portraying a match.

Then I realized I was talking about 40-50(or more) pictures. And somehow my inclination to accurately draw it went away(also people would have just been like "get a life" and not looked at that many anyway...).


------------------

I see mobbing brought up alot. A lot of the common "capping > killing" argument is "well what if they have a mob of 8 or 12?"

Well no ****, you go around and outcap them. We're talking about if the other team ISN'T completely retarded though and stays 4/4/4.

Since everyone's so intent on equal builds and skill here. let's assume everyone's skill value is 7 (because you can totally quantifiy it) and everyone runs a cripslash, a ranger, an ele and a monk. They all go to cap. It comes down entirely to who's homw map it is. If they have the same build, and same skill, it is logical to assume that they will cap at the same speed. If they cap at the same speed, the home team will win because they will start out with a few more points then the other team.

On he other hand, when they run, they both have the same skills and eventually, the ranger will land a dshot on the monks important skill and they'll be able to score kills. If they decide to run away because they lost one, you still come out on top because they will cap slightly slower and you will gain an advantage.

"cap cap cap" does not really work, people THINK it works, because that's all they've played but if everyone runs around each other until the game is over it comes down to a) luck (neutral map) b) homefield advantage.


EDIT: I don't see alaris's stance.

You gain 0 advantage over someone by running past them and capping. On the other hand you gain a very large advantage over someone if you kill them before capping. No one is saying " run around kill **** and don't cap" people are saying "proceed in your circle, if you see a squad slow down and kill them. If they're running away you can usually snare and kill one, which is still 4 points and slows down they're capping which still provides an advantage.

It isn't that we're trying to portray it in a way that's bias, that's simply your choices. Half the groups in AB don't even have monks and have pretty terrible self healing, it's easy to roll them and move on. The other half while you're stalled it effectively becomes 8 people on each side capping until someone retreats due to a kill, or they wipe. It may be high risk with a pug, but it's still high reward, compared to no risk/0 reward. (if you're looking at reward as an advantage over your opponents.)

Akirai Annuvil
02-12-2008, 00:31
I started with the intention of accurately portraying a match.

Then I realized I was talking about 40-50(or more) pictures.
I was actually thinking more along the linkes of: no map looks like that. So even if you made 400 pictures it still would have been incorrect.

"cap cap cap" does not really work, people THINK it works, because that's all they've played but if everyone runs around each other until the game is over it comes down to a) luck (neutral map) b) homefield advantage.
In general I like it when my allies spend the majority of their time capping. If my allies spend time killing, they end up getting killed. If they spend their time capping, they occasionally die but not too often. Plus it leaves me and my team the ability to score the kills and hamper the enemy, a position I much prefer over capping.

Simply Kedde
02-12-2008, 00:48
Also. Killing random crap in ab is ten times the fun it is to run in circles chasing people with stupid builds.

Anyone not able to kill off an opposing team of 4 players in 30 seconds needs better builds and/or players. It's ab for heavens sake (if that's your thing).

Offensive play, that's something long forgotten.
You just need to pump that bravemode hard and push the limits.

Offatwork
02-12-2008, 01:07
Having capped flags gets you points faster than killing.

Actually no. If your team can pull it off, it is more beneficial to try to assassinate the other team. Why, well for a list of reasons:


A)You will have more shrines than the opposing team. B)You will have eliminated an opposing force, which means less manpower for them, which means slower capping speed/general efficiency for that team.


Whereas if you look at the opposing side of this scenario:


You and the opposing team will cap an equal amount of shrines.


So it is actually more beneficial yet more risky (since you have to apply correct judgment) to take on opposing players.


It could take a lot longer than 7 seconds to kill someone.

Just like in any game in Guild Wars, if you are not doing something productive in a certain area, then you need to try to do something productive in a different area. This is exactly the case in this scenario. Of course you do not want to have a long drawn out battle if there is more of your team fighting than the other team. The chances of this happening with a stable squad is very slim though; strength in numbers.


And you would only get 3 points.

No. You will get 3 points and their shrine that they were trying to cap.


But if you hold 3 flags when the game checks, you get 3 points every 7 secs. And if you hold 4, 5, or 6(which is what you will hold if the opposing team is fighting, not capping) then you get 4,5,6 points every 7 secs.

This whole argument fails miserably. Why? Because your are not only eliminating the opposing team, but also taking their intended shrine. Let me give you an example:

In any map of AB, the usual tactic is to split up 4-4-4 and flank the left, mid, and right sides. Squad A1, who is focused on killing and capping, go to cap their closest shrine. Squad A2 does the same thing, only with their closest shrine. Now Squad A1 runs for the next shrine, so does Squad A2. Squad A1 realizes that they can beat Squad A2 and take their shrine at the same time because Squad A2 are a bunch of capping Elementalists. Squad A1 slaughters Squad A2 and takes their shrine. What is the end scenario?


Team A has 2 shrines, Team B has none or at most only 1 shrine on that side of the map. Squad A2 from Team B is destroyed - less manpower for Team B to cap shrines. So Team A is able to gain more momentum overall.


I'm sorry bud, you're completely wrong here. Overall, it is more safe to all just cap but your team will have a very tough time trying to gain momentum without killing players. This is why you see so many matches with such close games when everyone is just focused on capping Yet you would see way more one-sided matches with people who competently know how to cap and kill against people who just want to cap; the other team doesn't have the manpower to cap.

Offatwork
02-12-2008, 01:19
Because Shawn's pictures are oversimplified scenarios.

They are not oversimplified. They are presented in a way so that everyone can understand the benefits of capping and killing.


You can't count on a skirmish to be so simple. You know you are gonna win? What about when you face a larger group, your 4 squad against and 5,6,7,8 or 12 mob. What if when taking down that 4 squad you lose one of you squad? To many variables to think those diagrams are the way its gonna happen every time.

Again, just like in everything in this game, if you follow one tactic like a robot *Ahem* just capping *Ahem*, you're going to suck hardcore. In the situation you presented (a mob shows up), it would be more beneficial to flee the scenario and out-cap them; since they ARE mobbing (wasted manpower to cap). There should always be an ebb and flow of matches. If a group you are fighting gets assistance, there are ways to counter this as well (as I just stated, I'll bold it for you)


How bout this for a scenario. Say we have 12 experienced players on both sides. Where skill and builds cancel each other out. Each kills each other the same. The last remaining variable is points from shrines. That is what wins in AB.

No one is saying capping is unimportant; since it is. However, people who say to JUST cap are people who are not looking to gain momentum in the match; since they can't. Again, there is an ebb and flow to a match, if a certain tactic isn't working, you shouldn't continue doing it. However, if your team isn't prepared to even have a quick rumble now and then, you're going to just kill your team or severely slow them down.

Offatwork
02-12-2008, 01:27
You spend most of the time chasing and killing rather than gaining points.

This is really only the case if your team isn't prepared for kiters. If your team has a snare, this isn't an issue.


Another issue: you run across a few tanks. Within the few seconds it takes you to realize you are wasting your time, you could have been capping shrines. All of these seconds matter.

If you do not have a way of dealing with tanks (no enchant removal, for example) that's your own team's fault for not bringing it. Frankly, if you run into a few tanks, you don't need to kill them, all you need to do is occupy their space at their shrine (if your team has more players) and take the shrine that way. Don't even need to deal with the tankers - they aren't going to win. Ether that, or move on to a different area chances are they won't have a speed boost.

You are making the assumption that people would just be chasing down other people within a match. This is definitely not the case with a smart team. They will realize they are wasting time and move on to a different area, ether to force a fight or to just simply gain/maintain the advantage. Short answer: They are called "control points" for a reason.

Alaris
02-12-2008, 02:23
EDIT: I don't see alaris's stance.

I've read your post and it seems that you agree with me.

Basically, I've been saying that some other posters don't consider the situation realistically. I find that poor arguing, and I was trying to point it out.

But if you think that killing down someone while not really slowing down is a good thing, then we agree. The question is always a cost/benefit analysis. How much do you need to slow down capping in order to get the kills?

The case where two teams of 4 meet in the middle and both stop to fight just isn't realistic. Most of the time one team will run past. Most of the time, they will also be able to do that without losses. In that scenario, the second team slowing down to fight just lost some time. Not much, but much more if they actually pursue instead of move on to the next shrine.

Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not.

Offatwork
02-12-2008, 02:32
In that scenario, the second team slowing down to fight just lost some time.

If they thought that they could fight that one team (if they see people splitting, for example), they would have successfully prevented the opposing team from capping and scored a cap for their team. The opposing team lost time because they started to mob then decided to split so they wern't heading to separate shrines. It's all about counters.


Not much, but much more if they actually pursue instead of move on to the next shrine.

Chasing people around is not a good idea. You need to capitalize on the loss of teammates when you destroy a squad. How do you do that? You take their shrine. How do you do both? Your squad brings snares.

Wethospu
02-12-2008, 07:31
And you can also follow them and kill them when they try to cap your shrine.

Simply Kedde
02-12-2008, 08:21
Also, letting 4 people run right through you is just plain bad.

EmptySkull
02-12-2008, 11:55
I'm sorry bud, you're completely wrong here.
Actually no I'm not, bud.



I will first define two strategies:
Capping: Focus on capping, avoid battles
Killing: Focus on smart killing, cap when killing isn't possible


This is the original posters 2 strategies.

Killing strategy is fail. Cap when killing isn't possible? When do you know that killing isn't possibly? Are you psychic? Or do you realize killing isn't possible when you are sucking dirt. And don't give me I see this, that and the other. You brought a balanced killing team squad didn't you? So you are gonna engage.

All my post bounce back to this fail strategy. And until it's changed by OP then that is what my references are to and I'm not wrong, pardner.

You just can't have a rigid set of tactics in a game like AB, too many variables. Too many wild cards. Go in with your build/teambuild and adjust map tactics on the fly.

Wethospu
02-12-2008, 12:20
You know it when you are experienced.

And I use a balanced squad which can clear shrines almost as fast as dedicated capping squad. NPC's are weak, you don't need much against them.


Actually you are right. When you aren't experienced you should avoid fighting because most of the times you probably lose.

I'm sorry for making an assumption that my squad is good. Should have also thought the situation where my squad is full of not experienced players.

Sorale
02-12-2008, 12:37
When do you know that killing isn't possibly?

When the warrior uses Defy/Endure Pain, Armour of Earth, Healing Breeze, and Vigorous Spirit?

Mog Wai
02-12-2008, 13:11
Anyone not able to kill off an opposing team of 4 players in 30 seconds needs better builds and/or players. It's ab for heavens sake (if that's your thing).

Obviously you do not play AB or RA very often. Anyone who thinks it takes 30 seconds to kill 4 players is delusional. Especially in AB when you get the open skill slot.

raspberry jam
02-12-2008, 13:44
I disagree. Most people use cap tactics because it is the primary goal of AB.Scrub: A player who don't play to win, including playing with the intent of winning without understanding what the winning condition is.

The primary goal of AB is holding all shrines for 60 consecutive seconds or gaining 500 points . Since the first is comparatively rare compared to the second, let's say that the second is the goal of the game. Points. You can get them in any way you want. Even if you get them from shrines, you don't actually get them from capping, but from holding.

And both capping and holding is easier if you kill all enemies first. The thing is, you may realize that you can't kill them, so instead you avoid them, which is the second best.


Mostly right. ONLY if you take a guild/alliance/friend squad with Vent/TS you can make those decisions as a team.
But if you join in a random group with the other 2 squads probably random people, there is no real tactics.No, you can make these decisions even if in an ad hoc group as is often formed during the match, or if you are alone. You might make decisions that conflict the decisions of your group. That's ok.


hmmmf, WOW!It's not an insult. Sun Tzu says*: Knowing yourself - even if that knowledge is "omgwtfbbq i suck balls" - is winning half the battle.

* I added a part of my own.


What are you talking about. I know what capture the flag means. I've been playing video games before you were even a itch in your daddy's pants! edit: I've forgotten more about capture the flag than you have ever learned about gaming.[B]Capture the Flag: A gametype involving an unbroken run from a certain point normally controlled by the enemy to a certain point normally controlled by you, traditionally carrying some form of token (such as, as was in the original conception [which as an aside wasn't even a video game], a flag) which in most forms of the game may be passed on to a suitable teammate.

The only thing resembling Capture the Flag in Guild Wars is relic running in HA. The gametype in AB is usually called domination.

You have been playing video games for a long time. I have been making them for a long time. :smiley:

Simply Kedde
02-12-2008, 13:52
No, in that case he's pretty ****ing awesome as a w/e/mo.

But, yes, of course you make the assumption that your team is actually not retarded.

Oh and in fact I play ab often, not ra as that's boring to me.
I just play it with friends or guildies, who I know are good players.
That enables me to make a perfectly fine assumption that an enemy team 9/10 will go down in about 30 seconds.

Akirai Annuvil
02-12-2008, 18:00
Killing strategy is fail.
I'm going to go for a really slow explanation this time:
Two strategies; 1 - Smart killing, cap when not killing.
2 - Cap cap cap, don't kill at all.
...actually screw this, I'm gonna be blunt both of them suck.
Of the two 1 is less sucky. On 3 out of the 5 maps you need to gain an advantage at some point to win. You cannot gain that advantage purely by capping. It is quite literally impossible. You need to kill. 1 is the better option.

Cap when killing isn't possible? When do you know that killing isn't possibly? Are you psychic?
[..]
You just can't have a rigid set of tactics in a game like AB, too many variables. Too many wild cards. Go in with your build/teambuild and adjust map tactics on the fly.
I'm going to point out the obvious here and say "hey, the reason the originally mentioned tactics depend on personal judgement (aka my psychic talents) is to keep account with the variables".

Anyway, if we're talking about specific battle strategies here's a pretty good one:
Make sure the middle team (when playing on your home shallow map (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Etnaran_Keys)) has deep freeze. It's a very large AoE snare and perfect at slowing down the opposing team while trying to capture the res shrine. If they're lacking in hex removal it'll allow you to capture the shrine completely before they've even reached you, regardless of their speed buffs/capping speed.

Mog Wai
02-12-2008, 18:22
The definition of this "killing" tactic is getting lost. To kill and cap is the "capping" tactic(at least in my book) the "killing" tactic is running around killing opponents. Im thinking we all have a different definition of what the "capping" and "killing" tactics are.

Wethospu
02-12-2008, 18:33
That doesn't matter.

You can look the definitions at the beginning of this topic. Those definitions should be used in this topic to avoid misunderstanding, that's why I wrote those definitions.

Offatwork
03-12-2008, 07:47
The definition of this "killing" tactic is getting lost. To kill and cap is the "capping" tactic(at least in my book) the "killing" tactic is running around killing opponents. Im thinking we all have a different definition of what the "capping" and "killing" tactics are.

All you need to do to understand the most logical course of action is to follow Shawn's/Akirai's/myself's advice. Shawn makes a perfect diagram why this is why it is. No it is not oversimplified. It is simplified for simple understanding. Assumptions are made all the time. If you ask a scientist, "How fast does a marble fall?" The scientist will automatically assume that the marble is falling in a vaccum. Is it practical that this is the case? It might not seem like it because of friction and its assortment of variables that would affect said marble. But the scientist would realize that those forces are negligible at best in order to prove the ultimate outcome.

Within Shawn/Arirai/Myself's posts, we specifically say that the risk is greater, but the payoff is also much greater than just capping. We specifically address those concerns. If you have the ability to analyze a tactical situation well (usually from an extended period of experience) then you can ***** when it is beneficial to take advantage of that. I.E. the age old statement: Only fight fights that you can win.

However to say that "capping is stronger than killing player characters in a smart manner" is completely false. Killing player characters in a smart manner will always yield better results. If you avoid fights all the time, all you're doing is providing an even playing ground within both teams. If you continue with this approach though the entire map, your squad is doing nothing to actively benefit your team. All you are doing with this approach is to try and keep up with the other guy.


Obviously you do not play AB or RA very often. Anyone who thinks it takes 30 seconds to kill 4 players is delusional. Especially in AB when you get the open skill slot.

Listen, here is a simple process of analyzing an opposing team on a micro scale (you also need to consider macro):

How many are there?
Is there a healer?
What are their skills?
Are we prepared to defend against said skills and are we prepared to deal damage through their defenses?
Where are they located on the map?
Where are we located on the map?
What is their general skill level?

Chances are, if you run a smart team, you will have ways to deal with an assortment of things (kiting, enchantments, stances, attacks, spells, hexes, etc). The better equipped you are, the more knowledgeable you are about the skills you own, the better/quicker your team will crush the opposing force.

For example, your team is running with a Warrior, ranger, elementalist, and a monk; standard PvP gear.

Ranger or elementalist can snare.
Elementalist can remove enchantments.
Warrior does damage.
Elementalist does assist damage.
Ranger interrupts and stops defenses/attacks.
Monk heals, remove hexes and conditions, protects party.

This team runs into another team of 3 people, all Elementlists.

You can probably assume that all three of these elementalists are focused on capping and that's it. That means they probably have searing flames or some other Fire attribute focus. Making the assumption that your team is filled with skilled players you can predict the following actions:

Your ranger or elementalist can snare them down, making sure they cannot escape or generally run around (lowering dps of your warrior). Your elementalist can remove any type of enchantments that they will throw up. Your Ranger will make sure they won't cast spells. Your warrior can now attack an armor level 60 dummy and finish them all off within 30 seconds. If any damage/conditions goes through, the monk can deal with this.

Of course if you do run with just an all capping team that is not prepared to deal with the opposing team's players, it would be more beneficial to avoid a fight.

Basically If most of the situations provided are in your squad's favor, it will probably be beneficial to take advantage of that since it will gain momentum for your team. However, you cannot gain momentum from just capping, since both teams can do that easily.


Cap when killing isn't possible? When do you know that killing isn't possibly? Are you psychic? Or do you realize killing isn't possible when you are sucking dirt. And don't give me I see this, that and the other. You brought a balanced killing team squad didn't you? So you are gonna engage.

You see the thing is: A balanced team can kill AND cap effectively. Whereas a capping team can really only cap effectively.

Quite literally, I DO see this, that and the other.

If I see that if we engage and there is going to be more foes than allies, if my allies are mobbing, or if the enemies are in close proximity to another squad, I'm probably not going to try to pick a fight. Simply, if I see that there are foes that I know my team can't deal with, I'm not going to pick a fight.

If I see that there is no healer, less foes to allies ratio, etc. I will probably pick a fight. Again simply, if I see that there are foes that I know my team CAN deal with, I'm going to pick a fight.

Simply Kedde
03-12-2008, 09:34
Which is basically, being able to make a simple conclusion based on your logical information input.

See an opportunity to put yourself at an advantage, by all means take it.

Lunari
03-12-2008, 18:31
You can kill all you want, but with no shrines your really not getting that many points.

But 100% capping is terrible aswell. It should be kind of 70% capping 30% killing. But hey, you try to organize 12 random players with no vent ts, without yelling CAP CAP CAP.

So eventually nothing happens and everyone does what he likes. Honestly, do you ever listen to someone on GW telling you to cap while you're not feeling like it or even without any reason at all?

Either way, if there are a few (2-3) solo cappers the remaining players should just kill and cap a shrine or two aswell.

(OMFG CAP U N00BS DONT MOB. Me: hrmmm .... hrmmmmmmm........ nah)

shawn
03-12-2008, 18:46
If you don't feel like winning then why are you even playing AB?

And what's all this bull**** about killing a team and then not capping the shrine that team just came from? God, no wonder people find AB competitive, from the sounds of it, most matches come down to who has the least amount of idiots on the team.

Akirai Annuvil
03-12-2008, 19:02
If you don't feel like winning then why are you even playing AB?

And what's all this bull**** about killing a team and then not capping the shrine that team just came from? God, no wonder people find AB competitive, from the sounds of it, most matches come down to who has the least amount of idiots on the team.

It's a lot like GW GvG.
*zing*

shawn
03-12-2008, 19:35
I loled irl.

Mog Wai
03-12-2008, 20:00
If you don't feel like winning then why are you even playing AB?

And what's all this bull**** about killing a team and then not capping the shrine that team just came from? God, no wonder people find AB competitive, from the sounds of it, most matches come down to who has the least amount of idiots on the team.
I've been seeing that a lot lately. These morons kills off the NPC's at the shrines or the players trying to cap the shrines. Then they run over chasing after the mob leaving the shrine uncapped. WTF!

Simply Kedde
03-12-2008, 21:21
That's not something new to be honest.

Lunari
07-12-2008, 22:44
Playing for fun is something some people don't understand. Oké, winning is more fun then losing. But you have to understand, especialy you PvP maniac's, that not everyone is as consumed by winning as you are.

Simply Kedde
07-12-2008, 22:59
Is it now a problem that some players are simply better than others and find winning a lot more fun than losing?

Losing is pretty boring except for epic matches, but that's not really ever going to be the case in AB.

Lunari
08-12-2008, 21:14
You just dont get it.

Ryuujinx
09-12-2008, 08:06
Huh, I don't see how "playing for fun" and "playing to win" in an AB setting aren't mutually exclusive. Is playing bad with horrible builds "fun"? Horrible Tactics? Because I like actually scoring kills and doing my part to achieve a win. People screaming "CAP CAP CAP" sure as hell wanting to win, and this thread is asking "What's with the cap cap cap?" when everyone has plainly pointed out running at the other team, rolling them, and taking their cap point provides shrine advantage.

So please, what don't I get?

Simply Kedde
09-12-2008, 12:46
Sure you can have a good, exciting match and lose in the end, but it sure as hell is more fun to win in the end.

Even going in with **** builds and playing just to annoy others you still play to win the game.

raspberry jam
09-12-2008, 15:17
Playing for fun is something some people don't understand. Oké, winning is more fun then losing. But you have to understand, especialy you PvP maniac's, that not everyone is as consumed by winning as you are.How extraordinarily selfish. You are putting your own fun in front of 11 other peoples' fun.

Lunari
09-12-2008, 16:08
You play for fun. I should say this diffrently: whilst playing you're having fun.
Whether you win or not, you first have to play a match to win. You can't win and then play the match and have fun winning.

Ofc I like winning, running a good team build and doing everything good and then winning at the end is great. Duh. But you shouldn't flip it round. You're playing a match, having fun, and then you loose at the end. This doesn't mean you didn't had fun. You enjoyed it, but to bad, you lost in the end.

Back to the topic?

Alaris
09-12-2008, 16:25
Here's the tradeoff as I understand it...

There are sacrifices you can make to win that will make it less fun.

Playing with more skilled players who's idea of motivation is yelling at you for making mistakes.

Running builds you don't enjoy just because they are slightly more efficient.

Etc

So while generally there are ways to have both, sometimes you have to make choices.

Ryuujinx
09-12-2008, 17:10
I've never got yelled at for screwing up. I've been corrected and told what I did wrong, most good people aren't the jackasses everyone makes them out to be.

And most times "slightly more efficient" tends to be "significantly more efficient" I don't care if you run a Blessed Light monk instead of WoH in AB, but if you come in with 4 smiting skills, 2 heals, blood ritual and order of pain I'm gonna ask you to choose a different build.

Wethospu
10-12-2008, 07:25
And what all of this has to do with this topic? :/

Well, doesn't really matter. I think this topic has ended way ago.

raspberry jam
10-12-2008, 09:36
I've never got yelled at for screwing up. I've been corrected and told what I did wrong, most good people aren't the jackasses everyone makes them out to be.The thing is, what you see as a correction someone else sees as a personal attack.

Wethospu
10-12-2008, 09:57
Well, I have seen people who comment about others builds like "you are ****ing idiot".

Not majority though.

Simply Kedde
10-12-2008, 12:37
People are way to sensitive and protective of their ideas.
It's nothing new either.

Alaris
10-12-2008, 15:15
I didn't mean to start an argument, I was just pointing out a trade-off. I've met way more people who give good advice in a respectful way than people who insult. But the insulting people still exist.

I just avoid them, because it's easy enough to find good and fun players.


I've never got yelled at for screwing up. I've been corrected and told what I did wrong, most good people aren't the jackasses everyone makes them out to be.

And most times "slightly more efficient" tends to be "significantly more efficient" I don't care if you run a Blessed Light monk instead of WoH in AB, but if you come in with 4 smiting skills, 2 heals, blood ritual and order of pain I'm gonna ask you to choose a different build.

I've been yelled at for screwing up, including a clear case where it was not my fault. Granted, it has not happened often.

As for efficiency, I'm of the opinion that people should be discussing builds and learning from each other. My game has improved a lot from such discussions.


The thing is, what you see as a correction someone else sees as a personal attack.

Not every comment is as ambiguous. Some are clearly attacks. Yes, there are some people who should learn to deal with criticism. Also, there are some others who could learn a thing or two about giving criticism respectfully.


People are way to sensitive and protective of their ideas.
It's nothing new either.

True.

Nedaro
10-12-2008, 16:53
So does "cap cap cap" work?

Sorry for going On-Topic.

Wethospu
11-12-2008, 07:39
It works. Like stuff in PvE. ;)

Seriously, it's a good tactic at start when you may have a high chance for screwing up.

kokabel
14-12-2008, 12:07
Most of this was tl;dr, followed by healthy doses of people taking the internet too seriously. I heart forums. :D

Anyway. My two cents.


Cap. For the love of god, cap.

Okay, kill too if you can. Even if you're running in circles capping, you're going to encouter enemy groups and you'e going to have to deal with them - either as you move around, or as you sit on a shrine waiting for it to charge up.

Now, there's that magic little number counter on your screen. Have fun rofflestomping, sure - but if your colour numbers (hint: blue or red) are getting low and the other side is climbing fast - for the love of all things holy, go cap! And if you hear someone shouting 'get them off the goddamn res shrine jesus h christ!' then do it. AB is tactical, but it's really not rocket science. Also, keep an eye on the little annoucements: 'The Stinkin' Hippies/The Goddamn Losers captured the Blah Blah Point' is actually meant as useful information, it's not just for the lulz (or is it?).

'lol but killin moar funz0rz than teh capz' - is not a valid reason not to cap. The most fun games I've had where when both sides had a clue what they were doing and had a healthy balance of capping and killing going on.

Also, don't mob. Mobbing makes baby Jesus cry.

Simply Kedde
14-12-2008, 12:17
Actually, killing is both more effective if you're good, and more fun.

kokabel
14-12-2008, 12:26
But the likelyhood that the others, you know, the people on your side but not in your party are of equal logical thinking ability? Very slim. Hence you cap, to make up for communication/common sense barriers.

Also - we're clearly not all golden gods of GW. Some of us mere mortals have to do things the boring way to get our precious, precious points.

Wethospu
15-12-2008, 07:42
But the likelyhood that the others, you know, the people on your side but not in your party are of equal logical thinking ability? Very slim. Hence you cap, to make up for communication/common sense barriers.

With capping you can only keep up with one capping enemy squad. If rest of your squads are sucking and rest of enemy squads aren't. You are still screwed.


Also - we're clearly not all golden gods of GW. Some of us mere mortals have to do things the boring way to get our precious, precious points.

If you want points faster, you need to start using advanced tactics. Sure it may suck at start, but that's what happens with most of the things anyways. You gain experience and become better player and that way you will become golden!

Mog Wai
15-12-2008, 15:11
Most of this was tl;dr, followed by healthy doses of people taking the internet too seriously. I heart forums. :D
Anyway. My two cents.
Cap. For the love of god, cap.
Okay, kill too if you can. Even if you're running in circles capping, you're going to encouter enemy groups and you'e going to have to deal with them - either as you move around, or as you sit on a shrine waiting for it to charge up.
Now, there's that magic little number counter on your screen. Have fun rofflestomping, sure - but if your colour numbers (hint: blue or red) are getting low and the other side is climbing fast - for the love of all things holy, go cap! And if you hear someone shouting 'get them off the goddamn res shrine jesus h christ!' then do it. AB is tactical, but it's really not rocket science. Also, keep an eye on the little annoucements: 'The Stinkin' Hippies/The Goddamn Losers captured the Blah Blah Point' is actually meant as useful information, it's not just for the lulz (or is it?).
'lol but killin moar funz0rz than teh capz' - is not a valid reason not to cap. The most fun games I've had where when both sides had a clue what they were doing and had a healthy balance of capping and killing going on.
Also, don't mob. Mobbing makes baby Jesus cry.
Exactly! :wave:

Ryuujinx
15-12-2008, 15:12
snip

You could have at least looked at the pretty diagrams of why cap cap cap fails.

No one has said "ignore shines and run around and kill people"

We're saying, cap your start shrine, stomp the group that gets in your way and cap over the shrine they came from. Because it not only is more fun, it gives you an advantage.

Mog Wai
15-12-2008, 15:19
You could have at least looked at the pretty diagrams of why cap cap cap fails.
No one has said "ignore shines and run around and kill people"
We're saying, cap your start shrine, stomp the group that gets in your way and cap over the shrine they came from. Because it not only is more fun, it gives you an advantage.
Still one issue remains is when some players, new or not, spend the majority of their time chasing players to kill them. Chalk it up to being new to AB or thinking that is the correct tactic, it doesnt work.

raspberry jam
15-12-2008, 16:17
Not every comment is as ambiguous. Some are clearly attacks. Yes, there are some people who should learn to deal with criticism. Also, there are some others who could learn a thing or two about giving criticism respectfully.Actually most things most of us (not me, of course) say are ambiguous, and moreover there are many ways to say a certain thing. See for example this thread. This is what I mean:
No one has said "ignore shines and run around and kill people"Exactly. It seems that the ones encouraging capping are saying "cap what you can/need, and kill those you meet on the way", while those who suggest killing are saying "cap what you can/need, and kill those you meet on the way"...

Simply Kedde
15-12-2008, 16:51
And then fill in with random comments on how it's too difficult to kill and people who have more fun playing to win and winning are taking things too seriously while they'll probably have more fun than the ones running in circles.

Wethospu
15-12-2008, 16:57
That's actually keeping this topic active. Respect!

kokabel
16-12-2008, 15:22
But I did look at the pretty diagrams! D: It's when they stopped that I started to skim-read. Moar pict00rz pl0x.

The point is moot anyway. Killing is funz0rz, but cap when you need to. And if the opposing team has touchers, disregard the entire post and follow them round to make the rest of the match hell for them.

I don't hold grudges, honest.

White Karas
18-12-2008, 05:49
1.There are 7 Shrines, try to control 4 of them in most of time, kill everything stands in your way.(avoid mob, beause fight 7 or 8 with 4 or less is stupid)

2.Try to get more points first, then start the killing(camp the res shrine, camp the base, find alone target or players who have no clue what to do when get ganked)

3.Read the movement of your enemy's. Do not run in circle like bunch of lab rats.

To conclude, cap first, kill comes after you have something in your pocket, and please, think, with your mind, not your feet.

Ryuujinx
18-12-2008, 23:56
To conclude, cap first, kill comes after you have something in your pocket, and please, think, with your mind, not your feet.

Sigh. You don't "Go kill" you kill people on the way front point A to point B because this creates an advantage.

Chicago Jack
22-12-2008, 17:49
It seems that the ones encouraging capping are saying "cap what you can/need, and kill those you meet on the way", while those who suggest killing are saying "cap what you can/need, and kill those you meet on the way"...

Actually it sounds like the side for killing the enemy is saying, "People should capture shrines, but if there is someone in the way to the next shrine, you might want to assess whether or not your group can take them down. It will be better for your team in the end."

The people looking to only cap seem to say, "You should avoid as many fights as possible and focus on capturing shrines. The only time that your team should be fighting is if there is no other alternative."

Those two ideas are very different.

It makes more sense to take out the players actually capping the shrine (if you think your team can), while on your way to the next shrine, since that takes away the enemies' ability to actually capture shrines. How can a team get ahead if they are all on a 20 second resurrection timer? Those 20 seconds add up when the other side isn't dieing. A lot can happen in 20 seconds. Seems pretty simple to me.

Usually when I play AB and my team tries to take out an enemy but we hit a wall, we send one player to the opponent's shrine to cap. Then drag the people who we were trying to kill to our shrine. The extra manpower from the shrine usually makes them die. So our shrine is protected, and we are about to cap the other player's shrine (or have capped it). Obviously if the person running to the other shrine finds another team trying to defend it, he gets the hell outta dodge to find another shrine or join up at our own. Ether way, we regroup and save our shrine as well.


And then fill in with random comments on how it's too difficult to kill and people who have more fun playing to win and winning are taking things too seriously while they'll probably have more fun than the ones running in circles.

That whole thing is stupid since all of that doesn't really matter at all. It's all about what makes more sense.

Simply Kedde
22-12-2008, 23:31
Yes, but since it's a game, some people find the need to back up what's logically the worse tactic with them finding it more fun because they don't take a game seriously.

Wethospu
23-12-2008, 18:35
This topic is full of fail.

Wait.. it's actually my topic. Full of win, full of win!

So conclusion of this topic?

Play well to win.
Play someway if you want to.

Chicago Jack
23-12-2008, 18:39
Yes, but since it's a game, some people find the need to back up what's logically the worse tactic with them finding it more fun because they don't take a game seriously.

People think running away like scared elephants seeing a mouse, is fun? I don't even get THAT.

mcosad
25-12-2008, 12:22
Route to victory: Hold 1 more shrine than opposition, then pwn their faces in.

In other news, with the AB changes is it more viable to stomp crappy players or cap (with added npc stomping)?