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Skyy High
01-12-2008, 17:33
This thread is being created to stem the tide of off-topic discussion that started with my post on this (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=484788&page=4) page of the Chronomancer thread.

Now, what I've said that specifically relates to the profession.


An example of a profession that would work: a dryad type of profession that summons nature or element based allies to aid the party, and can himself transform into a variety of different forms with separate abilities, Ursan-style. It uses the same game mechanics that all the other classes use in a different way

The dryad can't just be reduced to "Now I'm killing you with summon power!" because summons (ie, monsters with skills, not disposable minions from corpses) are not present as a mechanic in GW, and they can't really be compared to anything else.

Skills. Plural. Not a turret spamming an attack, but a real monster that you can control. The idea is not to create something new in terms of gameplay mechanics, but to allow a single profession to do everything any other profession can do using one skill bar, by summoning different monsters or by transforming into different forms (as I said, like UB). The game has nothing like that. You focused on the "summon" part of the suggestion while ignoring the part that was actually novel.

Can you use your minions, pets, or asura skills to switch mid-mission and at will from ele, to monk, to warrior, to ranger, to mesmer, and back again? No, you cannot. Minions and pets deal damage and tank, and that's it; there is no minion or pet that can, for example, be used to heal your allies, and minions can't be controlled at all. Asura summons are closer, yes, but I still would not say that the mechanic exists in the game in the form I presented, because you cannot form a build which solely uses various asura summons to react appropriately to what the situation demands. They are too limited in their current form to be used actively; they are just another "fire and forget" type of skill, which is far, far removed from my suggestion of an active summoner.

Infuse Health and Fireball are both spells, but they are not even remotely comparable in any way. It's just as absurd to compare a controllable, dismissible, multi-skilled summoned creature to a ritualist's spirit, even if they are both technically "summons". Focusing on the skill type while ignoring what the skill does is just ridiculous.


On the dryad: the idea seems to be to implement a class which can multiclass to an extreme extent, switching and possibly taking over the roles of all other classes it can morph in/summon. This is a huge reward, and should be accompanied by an equally huge risk/skill ratio. I'm not sure whether this should be done to any class. I'm also unsure whether any class should have such a huge reward that it'd theoretically make running other classes obsolete, despite the class requiring the most skill. It's originality is quite obvious; it allows the player to (vicariously) carry more than 8 skills, something currently unavailable except by using the Mursaat summons or Ebon Vanguard Assassin. There is however still no class available based around the principle. Not to mention, neither skill is available outside of PvE, meaning the entire mechanic (regardless if we consider it class based or not) is missing from 50% of the game. Adding it there would be original, though I suspect broken - which is why I'm not supporting the addition, though the possible dryad class would deserve a thread of its own.
I agree completely, which is why I was only advocating the dryad as an example of something original, not something balanced. I haven't given much thought to how something like that could be balanced; most likely it would involve HP sac-ing, disabling of skills if a summon is destroyed, high cast times on the dismissal skill and summon skills to prevent constant swapping of summons and allow the dryad to be punished by killing the summon before he can dismiss it, etc. Also, a dryad should never have the capability of being a better monk than a real monk; it's a trade of power and efficiency for versatility. But this is now a completely different topic.

lavenbb...pets can't cast spells. Letting little Fluffy somehow cast meteor shower is not a mere "improvement" of pets. Not to mention the fact that the key point was not that you are controlling a pet, but that you are controlling multiple summons, effectively giving you swappable skillbars. And no, dervish forms come nowhere close to a real shapeshifter. All of the forms just make you a better physical attacker, in one way or the other, through better offense or defense. Avatar of Lyssa is not meant to make you into a mesmer, Avatar of Grenth is not meant to make you into a necro, etc. And, again, none of them give you any additional versatility, because you can only carry one at a time. I've already basically said this, but it is akin to saying that any two caster classes are the same, because they both use Spells. Just because we have summons, and forms, does not mean that they are in any way comparable to the summons and forms I proposed.

But seriously, can we get off the dryad crap now? I'll even go make another thread just because this is so off-topic.

...which brings us to where we are now. I tried to cut out as much of the stuff relating to the chronomancer as possible, to give this thread a fresh start, since people seem so interested in talking about it.

So...the dryad. Balanceable? Interesting? Useful? Original? Discuss.

Alaris
01-12-2008, 17:55
So basically, you have several summon skills on your bar, and when you press one, it summons something.

Once the monster is summoned, your bar changes to the monster's bar? Thus you control the summon and what it does.

You can have summons that are warriors, monks, eles, etc. So you can unsummon your current summon, and summon something else, thus changing your role.

Sounds interesting... and fun... but my two concerns are (1) what happens to you when you have a summon, and (2) what prevents abuse?

(1) What happens to you...
Well, once you summoned something, you control it. But that means that your character is a sitting duck. You may be able to kite, but hopefully you can't move way outside of your monster's position. I think some skills should shapeshift you, others synergize with your, and others yet make you invincible (and untargettable) but you then take damage via your summon.

(2) By abuse, I mean any kind of abuse against mostly PvE but also PvP.

Some examples: making cheap summons for nova'ing them.
As a party, sending in summons to hopefully kill 1 thing, and run away before they get to you.

Sounds fun, useful, original... and potentially balanceable.

Akirai Annuvil
01-12-2008, 18:56
Just because I said it looks near impossible, I'll take a gander at it. I'll change dryad to warden though. Consider the below a not too detailed description:
Wardens summon nature's spirits and befriend Tyria's fauna. As far as attributes or talents go, summoning and beast mastery form two important parts. Their third ability is their main specialty; they attune to their summoned spirit, merging it inside their body, granting them their powers - and weaknesses.

In game, spirits look wildly different from small gnomes to will-o-the-wisps. One spirit causes them to look similar to their GW1 counterpart (Spirit of Forest/Amber/Rage most likely). You cannot have more than one spirit of a type out simultaneously. After summoning a spirit, you can control it directly by activating the skill again, bringing up the spirit's skill bar, filled with at most 4 skills. It also includes the AI controls. If you're not controlling a spirit directly, its AI is set to attack and it can only use the first skill on its bar.
If you have the attune skill, you can attune to one of your summons. Your Warden's skill bar is replaced with a full compliment of 8 skills. To leave this form, you have to die. All attuned spirits will bestow some kind of positive and some kind of negative effect on your Warden. The Spirit of Freedom may suffer increased damage from lightning, wind and water attacks in exchange for permanently running faster or having unlimited/increased stamina. The Spirit of Rage may be immune to all spells from both friend and foe, etc.
To combat a superpowered spirit army with massively buffed leader, all spirits gradually decay while present. The will-o-the-wisp fades further as time passes, the giant shrinks in on itself and the kirin loses its horn. In effect, they end up taking huge damage from even the weakest of attacks assuming they're decay is never 'reset'. If a spirit of yours dies, you as well as the spirit suffers DP (or the GW2 equivelant); however both of them suffer a smaller amount than actual player deaths incur. The spirit needs to be resummoned as well. To reset their decay, all you need to do is to take control of them again for some short period of time (say 5 seconds resets them back to full). This keeps the skills vulnerable to shutdown. Divert the Spirit of Rage's skill, and after 30 seconds kill it with a minispike for some DP on the warden.
Attuning to one of your spirits causes you to lose ties with the others; or in other words, they disappear. Dying likewise causes you to lose ties with all your spirits.

Aaaaand now I'm bored. Just highlight and steal the parts you like.

Konig Des Todes
02-12-2008, 00:14
I question the ability to make it so that you control your summon. I don't know if you can do that as full as you make it sound. That is, 100% control over the summon. I can see you getting the skills but it's movements are still AI controlled.

However, having a full bar of summons with only being able to have one summon out at a time - able to bring a new summon out at any point in time - and each summon having their own profession sounds kind of silly, but possible.

People would just go make dryads and the class descrimination would focus on "only dryads" for teams. You can have 8 dryads and at any time you wish can have 8 assassins, monks, ritualists, dervishes, paragons, warriors, mesmers, necromancers or whatever.

The builds might be set but there would have to be more then 10 skills, therefore there would be dozens of set builds, and one will always prove to be the new Ursan.

The only way I see this working out is as above. Your build changes and you get an AI controlled (excluding skills) summon. Which means you're basically getting 8 Blessings and a pet. The origin of the skills just comes from the "pet" instead of you.

So it will become Ursan with a pet.

More imba then anything else in GW, even the old Ursan. If one person gets dp, no need for cons, just switch roles! If one person sucks at one thing, no need to resign and kick, just switch roles! If a person is tired of tanking or monking, no problem, just switch roles! See where I'm going?

It will be a new Ursan, but less mindless.

So no. Unless there is a way to get around the 8 dryad team discrimination.

Skyy High
02-12-2008, 02:31
I think a number of ways to balance it have already been stated, but the basic principle of all of them is that a dryad will always be hampered by some kind of drawback that a "pure" class wouldn't have to worry about. He has to worry about keeping his summon alive, high recharge times when switching roles, a highly micromanagement intensive playstyle, and simply less powerful or varied skills within each profession than the "real thing". Ursan was OP-ed not because it gave you a build, but because the build was better than basically anything else a player could put together. Any build that does that is OP-ed; it doesn't matter whether it uses a "build replacement" skill or not.

Quite honestly, I see the dryad as a relative outsider in the PvE scene, very fun to play as and always useful for anything you're planning on doing, but never the "ideal" profession to take along, due to the inherent drop in efficiency the class would have over a class specifically suited to the task at hand. It would be a lot like a ritualist, actually; a jack-of-all-trades that isn't the focus of any cookie cutter build, but can adequately fill most of the roles in them.

Alaris
02-12-2008, 03:04
The Dryad as a flexible jack-of-all trades reminds me of some of my favorite builds and play styles. Generally, flexible builds are weaker at a given task, but make up for it by dynamically filling-in the role that is most needed at the time.

Need more heals? Need AoE? Need spike? Need punishment?

It's also very fun to be able to switch your playstyle dynamically, and I would really enjoy that profession even if it meant that it wasn't cookie-cutter material.

EDIT: it won't be the new ursan unless it's OP'ed. The convenience and flexibility, and ability to deal with one character DC'ed, those are good reasons to include it in. However, true, the profession would have to be correctly balanced.

Konig Des Todes
02-12-2008, 06:04
My main fear with this is ANet's ability to balance it. Each build would have to be balanced individually. Say the Dryad has 100 skills, that is 100 builds - 700 skills (assuming one skill is used as a Totem of Man replacement, and each build is full).

I get the jack-of-all-trade thing, but the ability to fill any role at any time is what I think would be an issue. Eight Dryads in a team would be, in theory (can't say in practice until it is done), overpowered compared to a normal balanced group.

And, as I said, it would bring class discrimination much more then anything else has. People would prefer Dryads, even if they are a little less powerful, because they can be any one of eight professions throughout an entire mission.

And the ability to change roles in mission can also be seen as OP'd rather well. Fighting a mob with multiple monks? Enough people switch to mesmer and ranger builds to cancel the monks healing. Fighting a powerful Elementalist Boss? More Monks needed. Etc. Etc.

Depending on the mob encountering, the group can change enough to counter that one group, then at another group, set up specifically for that group. Whereas a normal group of the existing professions have to use one singlular build set-up the entire explorable/mission.

That is what I consider overpowered. The skills won't be necessarily - could but don't have to be - but the ability to have multiple builds in one instance for each character is, as you can just simply change skills around to fit what is needed for that specific mob.

It would be like taking Ursan Blessing (not the OP'd version we all know and hate), Volfen Blessing, Raven Blessing, and a pet in every instance.

Alaris
02-12-2008, 06:24
My main fear with this is ANet's ability to balance it. Each build would have to be balanced individually.

Almost by definition, those builds would have to be pretty standard, or pretty straightforward, rather than niche or OP'ed builds.

So a standard healer bar, a standard warrior bar, a standard mesmer bar... etc... Probably each on par with henchmen bars.

Henchmen bars are not that good. But what would make the dryad good is the ability to change role. That means that every bar cannot be as good as an optimized bar. So in general, if people know they'll always need a monk, they might as well bring an actual monk. And if they always need a nuke, they might as well bring an ele. The dryad's versatility would rather be taken for the extra spots.

All-ele or all-warrior teams don't normally work, unless some of them bring unusual builds. Usually, there is some balance in the functions of each team member.

lavenbb
02-12-2008, 07:15
The Dryad as a flexible jack-of-all trades reminds me of some of my favorite builds and play styles. Generally, flexible builds are weaker at a given task, but make up for it by dynamically filling-in the role that is most needed at the time.

Need more heals? Need AoE? Need spike? Need punishment?

It's also very fun to be able to switch your playstyle dynamically, and I would really enjoy that profession even if it meant that it wasn't cookie-cutter material.

EDIT: it won't be the new ursan unless it's OP'ed. The convenience and flexibility, and ability to deal with one character DC'ed, those are good reasons to include it in. However, true, the profession would have to be correctly balanced.

OP mentioned to hamper their flexibility to achieve balance, and you mentioned that flexibility is the merit of the idea. So no, that way is a dead end.

The thing Akirai Annuvil mentioned is precisely the kind of things I was trying to avoid. It changed one of things that I considered was fundamental about GW1, and it is a fixed 8-slot skill bar. Pre-planning with limited resource before the battle even begin has always been a part of playing the game. The Dryads basically threw that out of the window. I'm afraid the 8-dryad teams scenario mentioned is all too likely, either that, or dryads will be the new ritualist, who are supposed to be able to "fill all roles" but not good enough for anyone to care. Dervishes also can heal, it is possible to make a dervish build that can achieve anything a standard pug (slightly noobish) monk can without ever running out of energy plus having a dervish's version of infuse, all the while being a melee offense. Still, last I checked no one ever party a dervish for anything. Also, that kind of builds won't make it to pvp because it is not optimal. It is the same with restorers being N/Rt instead of Rt/X.

PS: I also see no difference from me pressing a button and see my character cast meteor shower, or pressing a button and see my pet casting meteor shower. In the end it is still meteor shower, all that that actually achieves was to make more bodies on the field, so as to cause more rubberbanding and lag.

Sobric
02-12-2008, 09:32
OP mentioned to hamper their flexibility to achieve balance, and you mentioned that flexibility is the merit of the idea. So no, that way is a dead end.


No it isn't. Hampering flexibility is not the same as completely shutting out flexibility. The OP was suggesting a vague notion of reducing the flexibility of what would essentially be the flexible class to a point in which it would not be overpowered.

Look at it this way: if you could substitute a party member for the ability to switch out one henchman at any point in the mission, would you consider this overpowered? Probably not. And the dryad would likely have more restrictions than such a system.

The "8-dryad" team also seems to be causing some problems, although I just don't understand why. A theoretically "perfect" team would not contain any dryad or jack-of-all-trades character. It would be 8 "core" classes with a perfect mix of skills, working together in harmony. Obviously, this team will never exist due to human fallibility (and overpowered skills; but that's a technical issue not a theoretical one) but that same fallibility also means that an 8-dryad team is not the end all of PvE either.

Even if it was, why does this bother you? (I mean "you" in the general sense, not solely aimed at lavenbb). You're worried that it would be the next Ursan, but the point of Ursan is less that it overwhelms other classes roles, than that anybody could achieve Ursan Blessing. Class discrimination would not so heavy if a dryad is implementad that every other class in the game would be rejected from groups and guilds.

Basically, neither the fear that uber-flexibility would become the next Ursan, nor the fear that it would eclipse all other class roles is viable for the simple reason that each class that the dryad can become/summon is inherently worse than a player who is actually that class. The only valid fear I can see is that the class would not be correctly balanced (in terms of skills), but that is something we can neither discuss nor predict as GW2 is still very much in development and as such shouldn't really be used as an argument.

To sum up: the jack-of-all-trades character generally is not a popular class in MMO PvE because another "core" class could serve better. The interesting aspect of the dryad mechanic is that the class is literally jack-of-all-trades, i.e. jack of all professions, master of none.

Erasculio
02-12-2008, 10:07
How I would make a summoner:

A character may have as many summons in its bar as the player wants. Once a summon is completed, the player loses control of the character and begins to control directly the summon. "Directly", as in, the point of view switches for that of the summon, the movement arrows move the summon, the skill bar is replaced by the summon's skill bar.

Each action made by the summoned creature does not require energy, but they have a charge. Once all charges are consumed, the summon is gone, and all summoning skills begin recharging. Different skills have different costs.

The character itself becomes fully AI controlled. The AI won't do anything other than moving and using normal attacks; no skills would be used. The player would have no control over what the character does, not even the little control we have today over the ranger's pets. Also, no summon skill may be cast on the character that owns it.

The summons don't have only one skill bar; the players may place build their skill bars from a (very) small list, different for each summon.

The result would be:

Player A wants to be a summoner. He picks the Summon "Fire Lord". He looks at the possible skills for the Fire Lord: its skill bar has 6 slots, and there are 10 skills available. Player A picks his choices and goes play.

In the field, Player A's character makes the summon. The character is now fully AI controlled, and will only attack and move. Player A controls the Fire Lord, who begins with 100 charges.

The Fire Lord activates "Immolate", doing fire damage to nearby enemies but consuming 2 charges per second. It attacks an Ice Imp, losing 10 charges. It then casts "Ring of Fire", creating a ring of fire that slowly expands, damaging enemies with touches, for 25 chargers.

There are still plenty of charges left, but Player A wants the big guns. So he activates "Hellfire", a skill that makes the summon lose all charges: the ground opens and molten lava flows upward, knocking enemies and dealing fire damage over time.

With all charges gone, the Fire Lord vanishes. Player A would take control of his character again, and all of that character's summoning skills would begin recharging...

...But Player A was so distracted with his summon that he didn't notice his character has died :sad: Now he will have to wait until someone ressurects him and only then the summoning skills will begin recharging.

(Although I think the concept of a profession being able to perform all roles work better with a shape shifter. Not one like the Dervish forms neither one like Ursan Blessing, but rather with a set of skills that may only be activated while under some shapes, and shapes with higher benefits but also higher drawbacks. For example, "You have +25 energy and your spells targeting enemies do extra 25...75 damage, but you cannot move and you lose 20 armor".)

Erasculio

Sobric
02-12-2008, 10:48
(Although I think the concept of a profession being able to perform all roles work better with a shape shifter. Not one like the Dervish forms neither one like Ursan Blessing, but rather with a set of skills that may only be activated while under some shapes, and shapes with higher benefits but also higher drawbacks. For example, "You have +25 energy and your spells targeting enemies do extra 25...75 damage, but you cannot move and you lose 20 armor".)


You know I thought the same thing. It's the sort of "gimmick" mechanic that usually makes a class, and it's one that I think would be very popular.

Perhaps the dryad should shape-shift instead of summon, in a similar way to the traditional D&D druid?

lavenbb
02-12-2008, 12:23
No it isn't. Hampering flexibility is not the same as completely shutting out flexibility. The OP was suggesting a vague notion of reducing the flexibility of what would essentially be the flexible class to a point in which it would not be overpowered.

Look at it this way: if you could substitute a party member for the ability to switch out one henchman at any point in the mission, would you consider this overpowered? Probably not. And the dryad would likely have more restrictions than such a system.

The "8-dryad" team also seems to be causing some problems, although I just don't understand why. A theoretically "perfect" team would not contain any dryad or jack-of-all-trades character. It would be 8 "core" classes with a perfect mix of skills, working together in harmony. Obviously, this team will never exist due to human fallibility (and overpowered skills; but that's a technical issue not a theoretical one) but that same fallibility also means that an 8-dryad team is not the end all of PvE either.

Even if it was, why does this bother you? (I mean "you" in the general sense, not solely aimed at lavenbb). You're worried that it would be the next Ursan, but the point of Ursan is less that it overwhelms other classes roles, than that anybody could achieve Ursan Blessing. Class discrimination would not so heavy if a dryad is implementad that every other class in the game would be rejected from groups and guilds.

Basically, neither the fear that uber-flexibility would become the next Ursan, nor the fear that it would eclipse all other class roles is viable for the simple reason that each class that the dryad can become/summon is inherently worse than a player who is actually that class. The only valid fear I can see is that the class would not be correctly balanced (in terms of skills), but that is something we can neither discuss nor predict as GW2 is still very much in development and as such shouldn't really be used as an argument.

To sum up: the jack-of-all-trades character generally is not a popular class in MMO PvE because another "core" class could serve better. The interesting aspect of the dryad mechanic is that the class is literally jack-of-all-trades, i.e. jack of all professions, master of none.

There is a reason why Ursan is PvE only. In PvP, the optimal will be copied across the board as long as it worked. You do not need to level up your char and farm for rep points in pvp. You just put the build together before the match starts. That was why the old avatar of grenth and melandru pretty much forced all frontlines into dervish until the derv nerfs.

I do consider swapping characters mid-match intrinsically overpowered. It takes a standard 64-slot vs 64-slot match into a 72+-slot vs 64-slot, unless the other party also used a dryad. That just forced everyone to have dryads. That is for pvp, but even in pve it is still problematic. While it is true that generally, PvE is too easy for anyone to care, but for those who actually put some thought into playing would also be bringing counters against the specific mobs they'll be fighting. That requires preparations using the limited skill bar and at no point in the game itself could you change the build you started off with. The strategy involved has always been part of the game.

raspberry jam
02-12-2008, 13:02
So...the dryad. Balanceable? Interesting? Useful? Original? Discuss.No. Yes. No. Sort of (see WoW's warlock).

It's too flexible, it has no role of its own, and generally breaks the entire idea of having roles in a team at all. Facing a team with lots of melee hate? Summon elementalists and necros. Facing a spike team? Summon interrupters. And so on. Balance it by making the summons weak? Nice try, but then they'll be weak overall and not competitive or efficient in anything.

Questions. If a summon dies, the summoner is presumably still alive and under player control. But what happens if the summoner dies? Does the summon stay? Does it remain under control? If not, can the summoner regain said control when he is resurrected? For that matter, can the summon be resurrected? Does the dryad have non-summon skills? I assume so. What are they? Speaking of summon skills, they sound powerful. What's to prevent an elementalist from using them?

Balan Makki
02-12-2008, 13:49
No. Yes. No. Sort of (see WoW's warlock).

It's too flexible.

Isn't this why they're creating GW2? The WoW warlock was never too flexible, but did provide for much more complex gaming than do many of the GW professions.

I hope ArenaNet is actually making an effort to add huge flexibility in GW2. To paraphrase: “you will no longer need a team of H/H in GW2, much of the content can be soloed; you will have the option to create a companion . . .” Seems to me this is a good thing.

Anything that improves the game is good. Being stuck in the present version (GW1) may not be the best solution. The end of "Build Wars" in nigh—I hope.

As for PvP balance? I would rather ArenaNet erred on the side of a fun, enjoyable gaming experience. They’re the industry leaders in balanced gaming they'll handle it. And who said they would not have an anti summon role/skills somewhere??

I'm having a hard time followinging those who disagree, as they seem to be stuck in the rut of "what is" rather than "what could be" or "what will be".

Erasculio
02-12-2008, 13:54
To paraphrase: “you will no longer need a team of H/H in GW2, much of the content can be soloed; you will have the option to create a companion . . .” Seems to me this is a good thing.

It's a bad thing, IMO. Support professions will become almost inexistent, removing entire layers of strategies from PvE. A mesmer would simply not exist if most of the content was soloed; all professions would have to be hybrids between damage dealing/healing or tanking/damage dealing, and that's assuming those players have a companion with them performing the one extra role. We will likely end with the "trinity" mentality made worse, as solo play doesn't really give room for more than tanking, nuking and healing.

Erasculio

Ryuujinx
02-12-2008, 13:58
As for PvP balance? I would rather ArenaNet erred on the side of a fun, enjoyable gaming experience. They’re the industry leaders in balanced gaming they'll handle it. And who said they would not have an anti summon role/skills somewhere??
I'd rather they made a balanced game. A game can be fun and balanced at the same time, look at when proph was the only campaign.



I'm having a hard time followinging those who disagree, as they seem to be stuck in the rut of "what is" rather than "what could be" or "what will be".
We have two options to discuss things.
A) Talk from a GW1 pespective
B) Talk from a different game's/theoretical perspective.

Since we know nothing of GW2 we can't assume enough to talk about it from a theoretical perspective, I pray we don't get WoW-lite (seeing as how I have real WoW to play, and all) so we have to talk about it as "If this was implemented in GW1..."

raspberry jam
02-12-2008, 14:17
The WoW warlock was never too flexible, but did provide for much more complex gaming than do many of the GW professions.In my opinion it was far too flexible (and a huge reason as to why WoW is unbalanced), yet not as complex as several of the GW professions. We'll agree to disagree?


As for PvP balance? I would rather ArenaNet erred on the side of a fun, enjoyable gaming experience. They’re the industry leaders in balanced gaming they'll handle it. And who said they would not have an anti summon role/skills somewhere??Oh yeah, RPS games. Summons as detailed by Skyy are very powerful, so if there are anti-summon skills, you better bring them or else. Which suddenly means that you have to bring them. Just like you better bring paper since your opponent brings rock. But he might anticipate that you do, so he'll bring scissors instead, leaving the summoning skills at home. Suddenly we have Build Wars all over again.

Fun yes please, but there is fun because something is just fun, and then there is fun because it's a-great-idea-for-five-minutes, sort of like Ursan Blessing was.


We will likely end with the "trinity" mentality made worse, as solo play doesn't really give room for more than tanking, nuking and healing.

ErasculioTrue :sad: GW1's focus on the team was what made such complexity in teamwork possible.

Balan Makki
02-12-2008, 14:17
.
A) Talk from a GW1 pespective
B) Talk from a different game's/theoretical perspective.



Let's hope they understand the limitations of GW1 better than many of it's fans, as they have understood the limitations of the genre.