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Imperial Mage
14-12-2009, 14:02
Okay so Yvette Va Ashima, Vanyel's erstwhile little sister needs some assistance from all you super monks out there!

She's trying out her skills in HM in Elona and could use some advice. What sort of Hero and Henchies should she recruit? She's tried healing builds and smiting builds and so far; smiting has seemed to work out best but she needs just a little bit more of a push.

I know how to play HM as a mesmer, but the point is to be competent as a monk.

What best advice do you guys have?

Ktahdn
14-12-2009, 16:15
I'm not sure Convector Felium could be classed as an "uber" Monk, but he has done pretty well, vanquishing various places, including some in Elona. He has two basic teams of Heroes he uses, depending on mood.

For his latest "mapquishing" run in Drazach Thicket, he had Tahlkora and Ogden set up as smiters, with Olias there to convert the deceased into helpers. I (Convector) am set up as a protector with various enchantments, a party heal, and Blessed Light. To complete the team I invited both Monk henchies, the spirit guy, and Devona. Why two Monk henchies? Because I forgot which character I was playing. Some of the battles dragged on longer than they should have but even with some over-aggroing, we prevailed. The only time we didn't was with a boss somewhere down by the riverside. I'm not sure what all went wrong there but we came back from the rez shrine and finished him off.

The other team Convector uses is standard Sabway three-Necro team. This makes things a little easier and is what I used when mapquishing Ferndale. Henchies were the healer, spirit guy, Devona and... hmm... I don't remember.

In Elona I use the same Heroes, but go with Mhenlo for healing, a Warrior... and two others I don't remember. In short... no real problems. Protection helps when the team is getting into the thick of things.

I use the Ebon Vanguard Assassin skill to distract the hostiles. Lately I've been using the Vanguard snare skill too, as an experiment. Most of the mobs aren't much trouble.

Imperial Mage
14-12-2009, 18:10
Thanks for the above advice!

So I popped over to the Monk forum and did some reading. The prevailing wisdom there said to go with Protecting hybrids and so I did. I set 'Vette up with the following skills and attibutes:

Aegis
Protective Spirit
Dismiss Condition
Shield of Absorption
Shielding Hands
Guardian
Word of Healing and
Rebirth

10 (+1) Divine Favor, 12 Protection Prayers and 8 Healing Prayers

I'd also like to thank guildmate Anthony for the monk build advice he had for me earlier.

I took the following heroes: Koss with a standard sword slinging build,
Vekk set up as a water ele to slow the baddies down a bit, and Olias with a high-energy weapon set and a hybrid sprit spammer MM build.

For Hench, I invited Odurra, Eve, Herta and Mhenlo.

We successfuly Vanquished Vhtendhi Valley in Vabbi. :laugh:

My next goal is to figure out how to survive against the fire ele Djinn, particularly the bosses. When against them it seems like my whole party is kissing the floor within the first 10 seconds of battle, particularly if Roaring Ether are involved.

Thanks for reading all! Any additional advice/critique is welcomed.

Vana
14-12-2009, 18:51
With a WoH bar you're better off running your attributes at:

Healing: 12+1+1
Prot: 10+1
DF: 8+1
(or alternatively 9+1 for both prot and DF, but it doesn't make much of a difference)

I also wouldn't run rebirth - that spot is well used for another bar pusher (patient spirit, dwayna's kiss). If you're not going to run a second red bar skill, which I strongly advice you to do, you'd probably want to draw a point from healing and put it into prot for an 11/11/8 split.



Also, as far as I remember, the behemoths make Vehtendi a real pain in HM, grats on finishing it.

Ktahdn
14-12-2009, 19:34
I use Rebirth, even against the advice of various Alliance friends, because it has enabled me to save the team in a mission. When I saw the direction the battle was going, I ran away. After the hostiles wandered off beyond the corpses of my team, I was able to use Rebirth to get them all back, and we went on to complete the mission.

Imperial Mage, you might want to think about your role in the operation. You're the leader, not just a healer or protector. One way to help your team is to use skills they don't have in order to distract or otherwise inconvenience your foes. That's why I use the Ebon Vanguard Assassin skill.

To deal with the fire djinni and their roaring ether friends:
1. Use the flags to spread your staff out. That way, when the fire djinn unloads it only hits one.
2. Take Ranger as your secondary, and bring Frozen Soil. Cast the spirit before the battle, move forward a few steps, pin your staff and then use a longbow to start the attack. First target should be a fire djinn because that hits the hardest; if you have an interruptor with you, so much the better. Melee djinni will go after your Frozen Soil, so try to keep that from happening. You'll see the roaring ethers look distinctly frustrated when they try to rez their friends, and fail due to Frozen Soil. Note that the roaring ether needs to be within range of the spirit, which is why you want to draw them toward you. Also note that the fire djinn's spells will affect the spirit, which is why the Ebon Vanguard assassin is a good way to start: the djinn unloads on the Assassin instead of you and your team.

To tell the truth... in most battles, even Hard Mode, I don't have much to do. Only when we over-aggro or get involved with a tough boss do I need to step in with some protection and healing. I spot-heal and shield as I see the need come up. Ebon Vanguard assassin is the cat's meow for a vanquishing Monk.

Imperial Mage
14-12-2009, 22:38
Thanks Ktahdn and Vana (good to hear from you V)! :grin:

So after further consultation with Anthony, 'Vette's skills are now:

Dismiss Condition
Seed Of Life
Shield of Absorption
Aegis
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Zealous Benediction
Spirit Bond
and Rebirth

Divine Favor is at 13 (12+1) and Protection Prayers are at 12.

Anthony recommends Aura of Faith for the Elite but 'Vette hasn't done very much travelling in Tyria so far so ZB will have to do. Also GoLE for E-management.

Took awhile to figure out the build but after we got rolling we successfully vanquished Garden of Seborhin.

Thanks for the advice. I'm looking forward to improving my monking skills.

Dark Seraphim
14-12-2009, 23:39
As far as my comments go, I suggested he take off WoH, since ZB fulfills a similar function, without the single skill cross attribute split.

I'm personally rather against a rez skill. Monks are not combat rezzers. They have far more important things to do. If you need a rez THAT badly, use a rez scroll. If you don't have enough for it, then you should probably find a friend who does. Rebirth really is only useful if the party wipes, which it simply shouldn't.

As far as the fire djinn go, prot spirit/spirit bond someone and toss them into the fray. The flame djinns won't do crap to them, then just drop them. A mesmer with 1-2 ints helps if people get clumped by accident. Frozen Soil is a good idea if you have the slot.

I don't really find full hybrid builds to be so effective. I have you almost running my build, AoF has a lot of power in that particular build to cause healing, but the high powered prots do their fair share of work.

Throwing prot spirit on a hero or two will go a long way towards making life easy in HM. Then you can focus on burning energy on Spirit Bonds.

Oh and another thing, I would suggest wearing all survivor inscrips, with a minor prot headpiece (+1+1) and a +1 div favor somewhere. The more life you have personally the better. As far as equipment goes, I have the normal stuff, -energy, sword/shield, staff, +energy. But the staff I use is a 202020 with +30 hp. Works well all in all.

In regards to the split Vana mentioned, that's a good split, but with Seed of Life in there, you are losing out on a lot of hp heals. In PvE Seed of Life + SoA can be godly on someone getting pounded. If the heal skills are taken out in place of Aura of Faith, the bonus to Divine Favor easily makes up the difference in healing. Tossing out AoF+Dismiss condition is an easy 300pt heal with damage reduction (not to mention what happens with SoL or SB). So the need to cross attribute is removed.

Mraezk
15-12-2009, 00:13
Well. .

Rebirth/resurrect is for Ele's or other mid-line. When the battle gets bad, that is when the entire team, especially the monks, have to step up.

If you need to h/h vanquish as a monk, go Smite. RoJ, etc. Or even an AP caller for Discord. H/h have some real trouble sticking to one target if the player isn't constantly attacking or calling. It is just a lot less of a headache. Besides, the AI can heal well enough on its own. (often better).

I'm pretty much WoH all the way. Although with the nerfed Patient, I took out hex removal and dropped in dkiss for pve. Can't quite bring myself to ditch Patient altogether. So I'm usually woh, dkiss, patient, dismiss, glyph/selfless, prot spirit, aegis.

* I pretty much loathe AoF & ZB, and fully prot or heal bars.

Dark Seraphim
15-12-2009, 01:38
Throwing a couple of prot spirits on heroes and having a decent hero healer is often enough for most HM stuff. Unless there is a particularly nasty enemy in the mix. Or if the henchmen are particularly bad, but that's usually not a problem.

As far as heal monks go, I am a complete fan of WoH/infuse. Occasionally HB/Heal Party when I'm feeling particularly lazy. I used to be more of a fan of Selfless Spirit, back before they changed the functionality a bit. When it ended on self cast, it had some real thought to it. Now it simply feels unimportant. I tend to run WoH, Patient, Sig of Rejuv, Cure Hex, Ebon Escape, Infuse, Selfless, and one other skill that varies from place to place, but usually Seed of Life. If heroes have prot spirit, and the prot monk is anywhere near half decent, then all you need to do is make sure red bars stay pushed. Simple task. But fun with Ebon escape, lol.

I completely adore AoF. It has tons of protecting power, just as strong potential for healing, and synergy with nearly any monk skill thanks to the healing bonus. ZB is a bit less nice...(read:mediocre)... but still usable rather than dividing attributes for one single skill. Same cast time, similar healing strength, but a slightly different rc and energy deal (iirc). It's a good way for inexperienced prot monks to ease into prot monking. When a team is doing even remotely well and both monks are alive, things go much more smoothly when the prot monk can spend more time assessing how to best spend energy on spirit bonds or shields of absorption, while the heal monk and heroes deal with prot spirits and bar pushing. Good protting involves more than just making sure prot spirit is up, and with a decent bar, a protter can keep bars up better than a healer.

Erring Ryft
15-12-2009, 02:53
I've come to see AoF as more of a "just kidding" button.

"Hey! I'm dying over here!"
"Just kidding!"

...I do like ZB in some situations, especially since you can pretty much use it to refill your energy bar with GoLE whenever you need it. It gives a decent diversion from AoF when you get bored running the same bar over and over again - and it's cheap.

If you are going to shoehorn him into running AoF all the time, make sure he's not constantly alt+tabbing over to check his instant messenger, his music, and whatever else you usually have running in the backround...even quarter-casts take some time.

Vana
15-12-2009, 09:39
I understand the reasoning for swapping WoH for ZB, but that really just emphasizes the problem of bringing rebirth.
In the build you have right now, Vanyel, you're compromising your efficiency greatly to bring that res skill. A ZB bar is also better with a second bar pusher (Gift), and even then it's inferior to WoH+patient in many ways.
You're also forced to run spirit bond to get that extra healing, while Prot spirit is far better in most HM situations.

tl;dr: I suggest you to run a WoH+patient hybrid bar or a pure prot bar with AoF (with AoF you should run spirit bond over prot spirit). If you absolutely do want rebirth, then go with AoF.

Imperial Mage
15-12-2009, 13:23
Thanks everyone for the suggestions!! It's like a little slice of the monk forums right here at Blade and Rose. :grin:

As for rebirth, I mostly use it to recover from near wipes while vanquing. 'Vete has high health (576 atm), and usually is not a priority target. If the battle goes poorly (more than four team members down, for example), even in HM she can usually run away and then rebirth the team after aggro is broken and the mobs run away. She never tries to rez mid-battle. If I bring a hero monk, I'll usually equip that hero with something like rez chant that I will disable and cast manually during a battle if the pressure isn't too high. So generally rebirth is only for recovering from near wipes. There have been plenty of times when h/hing that 'Vette has been the only one standing. In times like that, rebirth saves the day.

As I improve my monking skills, if I find that I'm not wiping as much during a HM Vanq, then I'll swap out rebirth for something else.

@Erring: :laugh: you really do all that other stuff while playing gw? (alt-tabbing?) Wow. I probably have a long way to go before I get to that point.

Thanks again for the comments everyone. You've made my monking learning much more fun!

~Vanyel/ Yvette Va Ashima.

Rinoa Hawkeye
15-12-2009, 14:54
Lots of great monking advice here. I would also suggest taking this under advisement:


Oh and another thing, I would suggest wearing all survivor inscrips, with a minor prot headpiece (+1+1) and a +1 div favor somewhere. The more life you have personally the better. As far as equipment goes, I have the normal stuff, -energy, sword/shield, staff, +energy. But the staff I use is a 202020 with +30 hp. Works well all in all.

I personally do not have any casters under 600 hp. And your equipment's pretty important. Good luck in your monking, Van!

Erring Ryft
15-12-2009, 15:24
@Erring: :laugh: you really do all that other stuff while playing gw? (alt-tabbing?) Wow. I probably have a long way to go before I get to that point.



Oh God no, that was my (apparently unsuccessful) jab at Tony's ego. I think he killed about five of us in FoW repeatedly the last time I was down there with him (ages ago), because he was too busy IMing someone :wink:

I usually spend most of my time wondering if I've brought enough speed-boosting cons to keep up with War...

Rinoa Hawkeye
16-12-2009, 04:29
because he was too busy IMing someone :wink:

Surely you don't mean lil ol' me?

Iscaroth Warblade
16-12-2009, 11:44
I usually spend most of my time wondering if I've brought enough speed-boosting cons to keep up with War...


NEVAR!!!

Someone said my name?

Imperial Mage
16-12-2009, 14:26
Thanks to Erring and War for stopping by! :azn:

Hope all is well with you guys.

So 'Vette has now Vanqued Holdings of Chokin thanks to all the good suggestions here. I guess its now time to do the next mission in NF and move on: Jennur's or Nundu. Or I can poke around the Nightfallen Garden of Seborhin in HM to see how my team builds really hold up. :tongue:

Aoi Enishi
16-12-2009, 16:04
In case you want to try something different and, if i may say so, pretty nice. You might want to try out this build, which was initialy designed for hero use but also works for players.

Orion of Healing
[optional]
Dismiss Condition
Cure Hex
Shielding Hands
Spirit Bond
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Unyielding Aura

The idea is basically to have UA boost the healing to a degree where Orion of Healing becomes extremely nice spammable high heal, and where your resonably low investment in protection prayers (usually around 10) is compensated for by the healing increase from UA especially with Spirit Bond and dismiss condition but also with shielding hands.

The optional slot can be another bar pusher or guardian.

PS, remember that UA serves as a dual purpose skill also being the best res in PvE available.

Dark Seraphim
17-12-2009, 01:57
UA builds are most definitely fun. They may not quite have the oomph other builds do, but are always useful.

I like how you used UA to buff spirit bond there, and counter much of the lowered heals based on lower skill pts.

Would be even more viable if the party had aegis and prot spirit scattered through it (or some blind stuff)

I would highly suggest the optional slot be something like Shield of Absorption. A serious power skill to go along with spirit bond.

While it may not be able to go toe to toe number wise with an AoF build (Spirit Bond and Seed of Life along with Dismiss Condition are completely sick with AoF). It seems to be an extremely capable build. How do heroes run it (with spirit bond and all).

Does UA really trigger with Spirit Bond? I felt like it didn't do so well with the ontrigger skills like SB, SoL, and Healing Seed. Like it didn't apply the healing bonus to them or something.

Another skill worth looking at for versatility sake is Blessed Light. While it may not have the power healing, or the power hex/condition removal, it does both rather well, especially with a normal mode anything. Keeps the party clean so to speak.

Aoi Enishi
17-12-2009, 12:09
It works pretty awesome with heroes which is mainly the reason it was created. It was made primarily to adress the issues with monking that the hero AI presents. And yes, UA boosts the SB healing that is one of the main points of the build. UA's extra healing also allows for less attribute point investment which allows for more hp on your hero and less likelyhood of dying.

1: Pre Protting
Your hero monks doesnt manage long casting very well as they cant predict the outcome and therefore pre-prot key targets in time this is partly why skills such as SoA, Aegis and Healing Seed is not on the bar, long cast time and need to be pre cast to have the effect in time. Im not dissing the effectiveness of SoA, but if i bring it, i found it more usefull on a Mesmer with fastcasting.

2: Spike catching
Hero monks have insane reflexes, like your mesmers with interrupts, which means they actually manage SB quite well and because SB kicks in with healing and not "just" diminish the damage, it is actually quite decent at spike prevention especialy in HM. It is however also a bit more energy intensive because the duration is that much shorter than PS. Thus i like to use a necro with blood ritual to spam on my monk.

3: Prioritising
Heroes prioritise targets and heals very poorly, they simply doesnt take into account which heal is better used on who, an example is Dwnayas kiss which i used for a long time on my monk when using an extremely heavy enchant build, however in the end i had to micro it every time since the hero didnt prioritise and use it on the target where it was most use (me). The AI also doesnt prioritise extra benefits on skills such as the extra healing of WoH on targets below 50% or the energy return on ZB and will use them if they are available on a target that has taken any amount of damage. The result of this analysis lead me to Orion of healing, which has several key points of advantage compared to the alternatives.

A: It is self targeting, heroes manage very poorly if they are not able to target themselves with the spell they want.
B: It recharges extremely quick, giving room for more skills and allows the spammedy spam spam that heroes like.
C: It heals for a decent amount, not too much resulting in overheal (like WoH), but something that can be felt when it is cast. At 13 DF (most beneficial healing from DF due to rounding) and 13 Healing Prayers, it heals for a total of 139 hp DF bonus included.

Reflexes:
Your monk will insta res anyone who dies to full battle potential, which is kinda handy.

I hope it helped