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Jazzik
15-12-2011, 22:14
Ok guys I played Domination mesmer in the previous game, at quite a high level. (Top 10 guild at one point)

My concern is, while it looks like a fun mage.. it doesnt look like the same domination mesmer that caused so much stress to so many people before.

The satisfaction I got from my mesmer, was that of completely locking down and painfully deconstructing my enemies piece at a time. Interupts, diverted skills, more interupts! Energy drains, sympathetic visage.... The shutdown aspect of the class.

I pray to god its not all, clones and teleports because thats not how a mesmer should be. I struggled to see how they could roll the class into the current AoE-sentric game. This just doesnt look like a mesmer to me, it looks like a pretty battle mage. With a couple of neat tricks.

It might be fun, but its not going to cause frustration like the mesmers of old. Thinking I'll go guardian.



Its not fun unless my enemy is punching his monitor out of frustration!

RD
15-12-2011, 22:24
Nice to see a thread here :)

I am undecided. I was (mostly) a PvE Mesmer, but I love the class. I was Dom, too, but not so much interrupts (except Panic). I was more of a damage Mesmer (Empathy, Backfire, Chaos Storm).

The Mesmer in GW 2 appears to be a lot different. But none of us have gotten our hands on it, yet. The GW 2 Mesmer is still very much able to interrupt enemies, just in a different way. There is still Backfire, Empathy (confusion), and Chaos Storm. Things are just .... different because the whole game is different. I am reserving judgment until I get to play the class.

CHIPS
15-12-2011, 22:27
Fear not! I am pretty sure there will be:

AoE Backfire
AoE Empathy
AoE Ancestor's HUGE Visage
AoE Energy Surge
AoE Diversion.
AoE Cry of EVEN BIGGER Frustration

So if you messed up players in GW1, you can mess them up even more in GW2.

And I doubt Confusion will replace the likes of Empathy. Confusion will probably be a condition that is used on top of Empathy. So if Empathy hurts now, Empathy+Confusion will double the pain.

Alaris
15-12-2011, 22:45
The GW2 mesmer was build with GW1 mesmer players in mind.

I see a lot of skills to punish, to interrupt, to shutdown.

Think of clones as your defensive skills, and of phantasms as your hexes. Also, shatters give you 4 different effects to choose from for those clones & phantasms, so you can use them to damage or shutdown or even protect yourself.

I'm pretty confident that pretty soon, players will figure out how to make others punch their monitors using mesmers (and thieves).

GrimShade
15-12-2011, 23:33
We knew the Mez had to change in one way or another. They killed energy and hexes which took out much of the shut-down aspect of the Mez from GW1. My personal favorite way to play the Mez was punishment/dilemma, which I believe they have been able to latch onto with the new Mez. The key for me is to keep the ‘theme’ of the Mesmer rather than one roll or another roll.

We still have punishment which comes with a whole new condition: Confusion. Hex’s turned into ‘illusions’ which was creative but boarders on the minion aspect which I’m not as crazy about, but I’ll roll with it and other hexs I’m sure will be AoE spells which will rock. Degen still seems to be valid but from what we have seen is centered around conditions not strictly hex’s, but hey hex’s are gone so we need something. All in all the Mez mostly works for me.

Where I’m not feeling it is some of the skill and aspect names, and the offhand sword instead of an offhand dagger. Just naming skills and aspects after GW1 skills goes a long way to making the Mesmer feel right. The Clone is one spot they missed on this, the other illusion is a phantasm, perfect. A phantom would sound too close to phantasm so they didn’t use that, but how about a delusion, image or diversion, something they can pull out of a GW1 skill name. Some skill names just kind of miss for me as well. Mind Wrack, does direct damage, Diversion stuns enemies. They are trying but I feel they could have done a bit better.

The off-hand sword and the Greatsword just make me wonder. A sword and dagger is very ‘duelist’ like they want to go for, but duel swords doesn’t feel duelist to me it feels berserker. The greatsword, well I know too many people will love it so I’ll leave it alone, I don’t have to use it, anyways I do longsword fencing so I am a longsword duelist...hard for me to argue with that.

Nohjo
16-12-2011, 00:40
Ok guys I played Domination mesmer in the previous game, at quite a high level. (Top 10 guild at one point)

My concern is, while it looks like a fun mage.. it doesnt look like the same domination mesmer that caused so much stress to so many people before.

The satisfaction I got from my mesmer, was that of completely locking down and painfully deconstructing my enemies piece at a time. Interupts, diverted skills, more interupts! Energy drains, sympathetic visage.... The shutdown aspect of the class.

I pray to god its not all, clones and teleports because thats not how a mesmer should be. I struggled to see how they could roll the class into the current AoE-sentric game. This just doesnt look like a mesmer to me, it looks like a pretty battle mage. With a couple of neat tricks.

It might be fun, but its not going to cause frustration like the mesmers of old. Thinking I'll go guardian.



Its not fun unless my enemy is punching his monitor out of frustration!

I share your fear, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Смерть
16-12-2011, 02:49
I mentioned this already in another thread, but the Mesmer condition itself is from Domination of Guild Wars 1.

Manwithtwohands
16-12-2011, 02:58
Since there be no monks this time around, who knows how viable the mez will be in disruption and shutdown.

I get the impression that with the way shatters and confusion work, the mesmer is going to have to muster up a lot of bait and trap strategies to rely on, rather than the old direct punishment route.

Actually from what I saw with clones and portal it really feels like that's going to be the case.

I ain't complaining. I'm honestly curious to see how this profession impacts the game.
It was really interesting to see the official site's mesmer page point to spiking as part of their repertoire.
Cuz once again there be no monks.

Simply Kedde
16-12-2011, 10:16
I know exactly where you're coming from. My, and many of my friends fear has always been the fact that the intertwined roles were what made guildwars unique compared to the usual skirmishy elements in many similar games. The fact that every role in this game was dependant on the rest of the team to do well. This meant we had the completely unique shutdown role that really isn't present in any other game to a similar extent.

How exactly are they going to replace it or reproduce it with their new combat system and gameplay relying so much more on skirmishing and zoning rather than drawn out teamfights.

It's not that this type of gameplay is bad or unwanted, it's actually fun in many other games. It is however not unique.
I just really hope the way skills interact with each other will help replace the unique teamplay that guildwars had with something that can give the same feeling.
There's simply no other game than guildwars which has ever given me the same feeling of enlightened teamwork. It's such a great feeling when 8 people all know what they're meant to do instinctively and just flow around the battlefield like a unified presence. That is what we want to feel when playing gw2, and the biggest fear is that we won't get that same feeling.

CHIPS
16-12-2011, 10:37
Well I hope Anet's closed beta will give some light as to how the game play will be. But I doubt warriors can just run up to a Mesmer; Start hacking away and expect to win.

kokabel
16-12-2011, 12:37
Having considered it and settled down a bit after the excitement, I am wondering the same sorts of things. Mesmer was one of the most fun classes to play in PvP land - I never played it at any serious level, but I can safely say I made several high level players rage (which is surely a sign you're doing a good job). I will miss the way it required you to understand the other classes (and types of players too) to better exploit their mistakes, I'm just not sure I am seeing that in the GW2 mesmer.




It's not that this type of gameplay is bad or unwanted, it's actually fun in many other games. It is however not unique.
I just really hope the way skills interact with each other will help replace the unique teamplay that guildwars had with something that can give the same feeling.
There's simply no other game than guildwars which has ever given me the same feeling of enlightened teamwork. It's such a great feeling when 8 people all know what they're meant to do instinctively and just flow around the battlefield like a unified presence. That is what we want to feel when playing gw2, and the biggest fear is that we won't get that same feeling.

This this this. GW1 opened my eyes to what TEAMWORK should be and really means - prior to this I would always have considered myself someone who preferred to do stuff alone (in game, or otherwise), now I've experienced the magic of the team entity I want more, and I really, really hope GW2 PvP can provide the same opportunities. I mean, I never used to really watch sports team-games; now I will catch myself occasionally taking a peek, or not minding if friends want to watch the football, because I find myself being able to appreciate observing how teams in every situation work together on tactics and supporting each other in their roles. For this reason I always found that GW1 PvP could actually be quite cerebral - a quality not many games, especially not many PvP games, can offer. I would be sad to lose that quality.

Alaris
16-12-2011, 15:15
Here's why you guys don't have to worry.

Hexes are still in, but now you can see them. Those are not minions, they are hexes. Pure and simple. They have no tanking power, they don't go from foe to foe.

Hex removal is still in, but now anyone can use their sword (or whatever) and bash hexes on the head to remove them. You don't need special skills anymore. It's like hard rezzing, everyone can do it now.

Punishment is still in: Confusion, Backfire, etc.

Interrupts are still in... the only real loss is that it's been somewhat toned down into more proactive interrupting rather than reactive.

Clones replace hexes that made you miss, they are game-mechanics-wise the same as proactive interrupts. Except that now, if you can be clever enough to know which is the clone, you can ignore it and not be affected by the skill. But that still gives you an initial delay, and requires player skill.

Keeping people hex-free is still important. But now that's not a monk thing, it's a team thing. Anyone can see someone under heavy hexes and decide to help out with cleaning them.

Смерть
17-12-2011, 02:08
I am happy that the Mesmer (along side the Ele) brings yet another stack-able condition for the Necromancer's Feast of Corruption and Unholy Feast to work on >:)

Fluffball
17-12-2011, 05:13
I think the opposite might be true (referring to OP). In GW1, it was all about 8 vs 20 or etc. In that scenario, mesmers were damn near useless until they made them ridiculous AoE machines that require no finesse. The fact that Panic is in the game and occasionally useful is retarded.

I think in GW2 it looks very different. From what we've seen the battles are smaller (e.g. 2 vs 6.) In that case, and also noting that there are no monks, things like the equivalent of Imagined Burden become super important. Imagined Burden in GW1 PvE is no good.

Akirai Annuvil
17-12-2011, 10:40
~Think of GW2 PvP as LoL or DotA, it's closer than GW1 PvP. It sounds like Mesmers will be frustrating akin to a good Wukong or Karma was, but in no way as a good Mesmer was.

Think of clones as your defensive skills, and of phantasms as your hexes.And just think of swords as rainbows and daggers as clouds.

Jazzik
17-12-2011, 21:49
I think the opposite might be true (referring to OP). In GW1, it was all about 8 vs 20 or etc. In that scenario, mesmers were damn near useless until they made them ridiculous AoE machines that require no finesse. The fact that Panic is in the game and occasionally useful is retarded.

I think in GW2 it looks very different. From what we've seen the battles are smaller (e.g. 2 vs 6.) In that case, and also noting that there are no monks, things like the equivalent of Imagined Burden become super important. Imagined Burden in GW1 PvE is no good.

I am more interested in the PvP side of things, I stopped playing after the expansion packs made the game ridiculous anyway. Mesmers when I played were mostly useless, but that was because of bad players. A good mesmer decided which team won,

Alaris, I still cant see how the new system is going to be the same or as good as the original mesmers were. The fact you can kill the phantasms/clones/whatever yourself, or even splat them all with an AoE in my view would render them pointless. Reactive interupts was what made them fun, and made the difference between skill and just pushing the buttons in order.

I'm not convinced at all, I'll give it a go but... I'm pretty sure I'll wind up playing something else. Akirai, I think I completely agree with you, they'll be annoying to play against but not in the same league as a good pre-expansion Domination mesmer :)

Simply Kedde
18-12-2011, 03:35
Here's why you guys don't have to worry.

Hexes are still in, but now you can see them. Those are not minions, they are hexes. Pure and simple. They have no tanking power, they don't go from foe to foe.

Hex removal is still in, but now anyone can use their sword (or whatever) and bash hexes on the head to remove them. You don't need special skills anymore. It's like hard rezzing, everyone can do it now.

Punishment is still in: Confusion, Backfire, etc.

Interrupts are still in... the only real loss is that it's been somewhat toned down into more proactive interrupting rather than reactive.

Clones replace hexes that made you miss, they are game-mechanics-wise the same as proactive interrupts. Except that now, if you can be clever enough to know which is the clone, you can ignore it and not be affected by the skill. But that still gives you an initial delay, and requires player skill.

Keeping people hex-free is still important. But now that's not a monk thing, it's a team thing. Anyone can see someone under heavy hexes and decide to help out with cleaning them.

I don't see your point about this at all. How does the fact that hexes still require the whole team to counter efficiently reproduce the teamwork required on your side to make them efficient? Put backfire on their ele, their team needs to deal with it, but what did that require from your team apart from "deal damage while it's up, pull back when it's killed"?

It's reactive punishment, an incentive not to do specific things lest you get punished. Not anywhere near as interesting as our original diversion, shame, energy denial etc. The things that required your effort to make them effective rather than requiring them to react and perform their acts in spite of the punishment.

The play that the enemy has to weigh the punishment up against the action they can perform is certainly not a bad thing. It's good, but so far it's all we've gotten so far that remotely mimics the shutdown role we used to have. For anyone who ever tried it out originally that just doesn't cut it for originality.

Fluffball
18-12-2011, 04:52
I am more interested in the PvP side of things, I stopped playing after the expansion packs made the game ridiculous anyway. Mesmers when I played were mostly useless, but that was because of bad players. A good mesmer decided which team won,

I think we're still talking about the same thing. It appears mesmers are still all about stopping enemies. There are no monks so all professions must stay alive by preventing damage, which may be what feels different (i.e everyone must be a little bit mesmerish.) It looks like mesmers still do it with brutally annoying style though.

For example the teleport thing looks useless in the preview, but imagine using that against a human. Things can get really creative really quickly. I mean the obvious example is demolishing the rarely used elite skills, but there are a million other things that come to mind.

Alaris
18-12-2011, 06:35
Alaris, I still cant see how the new system is going to be the same or as good as the original mesmers were.

Similar.

I'd say the new mesmer is probably better, because it is more forgiving of player errors. But they still leave space for good players to benefit from playing well.

There's also still space for reactive play using instant-cast interrupts (that do other effects too). But I don't think you could be a pure interrupt mesmer.

As for AoE wiping out the clones, you know, it'd be balanced in strength for how easy it is to wipe out. A great mesmer would know when and where to cast those so as to not get his clones wiped out too early.

A great player should decide a match, but independently of profession. Also, I think a good team should win over a terrible team with one great player.


I don't see your point about this at all.

My point is that GW2 mesmers do pretty much the same kind of things (role-wise) as they did in GW1. The specific way they do this has changed, but their overall role and general gameplay is similar.

I wrote more about this opinion of mine here:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/blog/comments/your-mesmer-has-evolved

Akirai Annuvil
18-12-2011, 10:55
Akirai, I think I completely agree with you, they'll be annoying to play against but not in the same league as a good pre-expansion Domination mesmer :)Probably less annoying, but good juking is an art in itself and between stealth, clones and teleports the Mesmer's gonna excel. I do think that's where you'll find some incredible mind-games.

I mean the obvious example is demolishing the rarely used elite skills, but there are a million other things that come to mind.I thought the obvious example was teleporting between capture points and trebuchet?

My point is that GW2 mesmers do pretty much the same kind of things (role-wise) as they did in GW1. The specific way they do this has changed, but their overall role and general gameplay is similar.The overal role of a Curses necro was similar to a Mesmer yet it's gameplay was radically different. I'm not seeing the comparison.

(Though I do like your reference to "Your Necromancer is evolving!")

Alaris
19-12-2011, 01:48
Wait, I thought I was talking about mesmers... Oh yea, I was. Not sure why you mentioned necromancer, because those have somewhat changed role since GW1. Somewhat.

Teleporting between capture and treb sounds OP, but then someone could camp a portal and spike whatever comes through it (mesmers = squishy). It might still be OP though.

Soulstorm
19-12-2011, 13:54
There's simply no other game than guildwars which has ever given me the same feeling of enlightened teamwork. It's such a great feeling when 8 people all know what they're meant to do instinctively and just flow around the battlefield like a unified presence. That is what we want to feel when playing gw2, and the biggest fear is that we won't get that same feeling.

Every profession basically does the same thing in different ways now; they're all self-contained "Adventurer" classes who can gain some advantages from teaming up if they like, but basically have no need of eachother.
That we weren't getting a dedicated backline was the first clue. Without a backline, there are no need for lines at all. And of course then you can't center the Mes around the disruptive role it had -yes, past tense- in GW 1.
I find this very bad, as it breaks with the fundamental concept (team-based PvP) that made Gilworz such a mechanically amazing game, in favour of the same tired concept (solo-centric PvE) everyone else has been running since Blizzard dreamed up Diablo.
-But I'll still be playing GW 2, I suppose. I see no reason the PvE won't be splendid, at least.

Alaris
19-12-2011, 15:15
Soulstorm, you're wrong on so many counts...

Healers (or more generally, trinity) forces teamwork. Many MMOs are built with classes that purposely can't do some part of the work, so that others are required to pitch in. Every 5-man WoW instance, afaik, is run with 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps, they even made a dungeon finder based on that. Even with the finder, dps are willing to wait for a tank & heal 30+ min because they are built to fail without those two others. It's a terrible way to make teamwork in a game, but... for lack of a better thing, it works.

GW2 has hybrids. But even then, don't expect to frontline with a mesmer, or to be of any use in the backline with a warrior (unless you ranged dps, maybe). You still have clearly squishy professions, and you still have professions that can clearly frontline. The difference is that you have more profession that can buy the frontline some time when needed. And every profession can ranged dps and bring some support, but within a fight your build is fixed, so you can't that easily swap places without sacrificing some effectiveness.

Teamwork will also be about combos, and making sure people don't step on each other's toes. People will need to frontline, sometimes taking turns to let another regen. They'll need to protect their backline. They'll need to boon each other being careful not to waste their boons for when they need it.

Those who have played dungeons so far said that teamwork was important to success. It's just a bit hard to tell what kind of teamwork is involved, since it's a new system. But that's because we have nothing to compare to, not because it's lacking from GW2.

Soulstorm
19-12-2011, 16:39
I just said there aren't going to be any lines of battle, and you drone on about lines anyway. Trinity is bad because it's not about lines at all; it's a gimmick. And one irrelevant to PvP.
-I didn't talk about teamwork either, I know there's going to be teamwork. It would hardly qualify as an online game otherwise.
I talked about the change in what is the fundamental unit of the game, from the team in GW 1 to the single player in GW 2. And this shift is a bad one to me; a huge step backwards.
As pretty and sparkly as GW 2 is going to be, mechanically it's looking to become essentially Diablo 3.5.

And I fully expect to frontline with my Mesmer when I get to play it. There won't be anything but the fronline to work on.

Alaris
19-12-2011, 17:27
In 1vs1, there's no frontline. But in large enough events, there is. As a mesmer, all you need to have a frontline is either (1) a frontline ally, (2) a racial summon, or (3) your phantasms and clones. I'd say that as a mesmer, if you toe-to-toe foes, you're doing it wrong.

Granted, you don't get a reliable frontline, and things will get chaotic. But in my mind, this is part of the fun.

lumenil
20-12-2011, 00:23
not disappointed at all

CHIPS
20-12-2011, 00:32
I just said there aren't going to be any lines of battle, and you drone on about lines anyway. Trinity is bad because it's not about lines at all; it's a gimmick. And one irrelevant to PvP.
-I didn't talk about teamwork either, I know there's going to be teamwork. It would hardly qualify as an online game otherwise.
I talked about the change in what is the fundamental unit of the game, from the team in GW 1 to the single player in GW 2. And this shift is a bad one to me; a huge step backwards.
As pretty and sparkly as GW 2 is going to be, mechanically it's looking to become essentially Diablo 3.5.

And I fully expect to frontline with my Mesmer when I get to play it. There won't be anything but the fronline to work on.

There will be solo stuff that you can do by yourself. And there will be missions where you are required to team up with a party of 8. There will also be mass events where you have to fight along side 100s of people. So it will be a mix of all favors.

There is no front line in GW1 b/c there were only 8 players. With such a small army it is better to use a loose formation and support each other from distance, guerilla warfare. Those Mass events with 100s of players in GW2 will be different. I am sure some missions you BETTER form a line. There are 500 mobs charging at you. If the warriors let those mobs though those mages at the back are dead meat.

Mesmer vs 10+ mobs at once = dead. No way he/she can survive. Look at a battle of the scale of this video. Trust me your Mesmer won't be soloing.

pM_NkPOtTeQ

Akirai Annuvil
20-12-2011, 11:52
Wait, I thought I was talking about mesmers...You were comparing- wait this thread's about PvP, why am I bothering replying to you?

Every profession basically does the same thing in different ways now; they're all self-contained "Adventurer" classes who can gain some advantages from teaming up if they like, but basically have no need of eachother.
That we weren't getting a dedicated backline was the first clue. Without a backline, there are no need for lines at all. And of course then you can't center the Mes around the disruptive role it had -yes, past tense- in GW 1.Not quite. Without a backline,there is no frontline (no thesis-antithesis). Let alone a midline, spatially in between the front and back. How did the back-mid-front in GW1 came to be?
Well, the frontline came because effective damage was melee, while support was casting range, meaning effective damage lead the team (frontline, nearest the opposition) while support followed (backline, away from the opposition). In GW1 support was however divided in two further lines - mid and backline. Where did this division come from when all supportive roles had the same casting range? Target ally and target foe. The monk could effectively support using only target ally skills and that was the reason the backline existed as the monk did not need to be capable of targeting enemies. Why did the midline exist? They needed to be able to target enemies but being support had the luxury of casting range; meaning they could stay away from frontline.
Looking at the complete chain of facts, stating that without a dedicated backline, no dedicated healers, there is no frontline is too simplistic. There could have been a system of line formation. Damage = melee, support = ranged, are the only two necessities for developing line formations. A rulesystem which is still possible in PvP - ranged 'damage' tends to focus on PvP damage. This might be too inefficient or avoidable to be effective, making effective damage in PvP melee. And if ranged support = melee support there's no reason to prefer ranged.
This does seem unlikely, but it is possible. It will also be incredibly hard to maintain the balance.

Soulstorm
20-12-2011, 14:58
Looking at the complete chain of facts, stating that without a dedicated backline, no dedicated healers, there is no frontline is too simplistic.

Yes; I cede that point as too bluntly put.


There could have been a system of line formation. Damage = melee, support = ranged, are the only two necessities for developing line formations. A rulesystem which is still possible in PvP - ranged 'damage' tends to focus on PvP damage. This might be too inefficient or avoidable to be effective, making effective damage in PvP melee. And if ranged support = melee support there's no reason to prefer ranged.
This does seem unlikely, but it is possible. It will also be incredibly hard to maintain the balance.

Thing is, while there might be some sort of support line in play, without a dedicated healer (and/or prot, not to forget) role, it just won't be the critical objective it was in GW. You might as well bring your team to bear on the opposing W as on the -say- Guardian that's occasionally buffing it. A team is no longer critically interlocked like in GW. At least, I don't see anything indicating it is.

I recall a major point of criticism against the later GW metas was the dominance of hybrids (the WoH-protter, the MoI Ele and so on), and now we're apparently getting a whole game full of hybrids.
And it's not even the GW 1 hybrids with their still limited roles (a WoH-hybrid could heal and prot but not deal damage, for example), but full-on allrounders.

In other words, will there be any reason to not just find the class and weapon set that offers the best damage output, and then filling your team with those, like the eight Warrior teams of very early GW GvGs?

raspberry jam
20-12-2011, 16:18
In other words, will there be any reason to not just find the class and weapon set that offers the best damage output, and then filling your team with those, like the eight Warrior teams of very early GW GvGs?Hopefully, the system will be as such that it is better to adaptively play (as a whole team) in an offensive style or a defensive one, depending on the circumstances. That is, if the enemy pushes hard, playing in a way that conserves the resources of the own team (by for example preventing damage from being applied) while expending the resources of the enemy team/exploiting mistakes that they are forced to make because they are attempting to play offensively.

CHIPS
21-12-2011, 00:26
Yes; I cede that point as too bluntly put.



Thing is, while there might be some sort of support line in play, without a dedicated healer (and/or prot, not to forget) role, it just won't be the critical objective it was in GW. You might as well bring your team to bear on the opposing W as on the -say- Guardian that's occasionally buffing it. A team is no longer critically interlocked like in GW. At least, I don't see anything indicating it is.

I recall a major point of criticism against the later GW metas was the dominance of hybrids (the WoH-protter, the MoI Ele and so on), and now we're apparently getting a whole game full of hybrids.
And it's not even the GW 1 hybrids with their still limited roles (a WoH-hybrid could heal and prot but not deal damage, for example), but full-on allrounders.

In other words, will there be any reason to not just find the class and weapon set that offers the best damage output, and then filling your team with those, like the eight Warrior teams of very early GW GvGs?

2 mesmers can totally shut down those 8 warriors, while the rest of the team ward those warriors to death. Heck Blinding Surge spammers can do the same thing.

Healing is not so simple. Have you forgotten about Backfire and interrupts? Defile Flesh that cuts your healing down to 2/3? Even if we give those monks in GW1 100 armor they will still die.

In other words wammo, even if it ever worked in GW1, will not work in the long run. There are tons of ways to go past them, which the players will discover after a period of time. Shut down their attack. Shut down their healing. Then you have 8 useless wammos.

Akirai Annuvil
21-12-2011, 23:51
Thing is, while there might be some sort of support line in play, without a dedicated healer (and/or prot, not to forget) role, it just won't be the critical objective it was in GW. You might as well bring your team to bear on the opposing W as on the -say- Guardian that's occasionally buffing it. A team is no longer critically interlocked like in GW. At least, I don't see anything indicating it is.
I agree with your conclusion, less so your arguments. A team is no longer critically interlocked because goals are numerous and spatially spread. If goals were singular, team fights would occur more often, so probably last longer, disabling the ability to switch weapon sets and I could see things like Guardian focusing one weapon set on offensive support, one on defensive support with the rest focusing on fairly straightforward offense making Guardian the crumpler. So I think there's some possibility based on maps and game modes, mostly, but there's also need to be some numerical balance allowing for a critical role - and I'm not sure ANet's willing to do that.

Soulstorm
22-12-2011, 14:36
Eh, seems to me our arguments are the same, only we're at different points in the causation chain.


A team is no longer critically interlocked because goals are numerous and spatially spread. If goals were singular, team fights would occur more often, so probably last longer, disabling the ability to switch weapon sets and I could see things like Guardian focusing one weapon set on offensive support, one on defensive support with the rest focusing on fairly straightforward offense making Guardian the crumpler. So I think there's some possibility based on maps and game modes, mostly, but there's also need to be some numerical balance allowing for a critical role - and I'm not sure ANet's willing to do that.

Goals are spread out exactly because the game is focused around individual units now, and that's why ANet would be unwilling to make the numbers favour specific roles.
It all starts right there: ANet's moving away from team dynamics and onto individual units as their primary focus.
As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this is the end result of their (ANet's/Izzy's) idea of "balance" as "every profession is equally useful"; refer the time when Necros got stupidly buffed to force them into play in GvG.

I'll concede that I might have been too focused on the concept of lines, under the impression it's the start and end of "proper" PvP when they're really just a consequence of the role-bound, team-based gameplay we know from Ye Olde GilWorz.



Hopefully, the system will be as such that it is better to adaptively play (as a whole team) in an offensive style or a defensive one, depending on the circumstances. That is, if the enemy pushes hard, playing in a way that conserves the resources of the own team (by for example preventing damage from being applied) while expending the resources of the enemy team/exploiting mistakes that they are forced to make because they are attempting to play offensively.

Yes, hopefully there will be a strategic level to "GvGs" in GW 2 at all.
Being 5v5 and seemingly based around what we'd call skirmishing in GW 1, though, I rather doubt it'll be anything special.

CHIPS
27-12-2011, 20:37
Eh, seems to me our arguments are the same, only we're at different points in the causation chain.



Goals are spread out exactly because the game is focused around individual units now, and that's why ANet would be unwilling to make the numbers favour specific roles.
It all starts right there: ANet's moving away from team dynamics and onto individual units as their primary focus.
As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this is the end result of their (ANet's/Izzy's) idea of "balance" as "every profession is equally useful"; refer the time when Necros got stupidly buffed to force them into play in GvG.

I'll concede that I might have been too focused on the concept of lines, under the impression it's the start and end of "proper" PvP when they're really just a consequence of the role-bound, team-based gameplay we know from Ye Olde GilWorz.




Yes, hopefully there will be a strategic level to "GvGs" in GW 2 at all.
Being 5v5 and seemingly based around what we'd call skirmishing in GW 1, though, I rather doubt it'll be anything special.

All the classes play differently. The only similarity they have is that they all have self defense skills and can self heal. But even then, each class do those differently.

RD
20-02-2012, 17:26
Just watched the TotalBiscuit Mesmer gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6Ckj6--Z0&feature=player_embedded) video and it's pretty much killed my love of Mesmer...

No longer are we this backline caster, damaging foes via finesse. Now we're swinging swords, jumping around, with these big, flashy skills. Clone gameplay still seems like it could be interesting, and I'll still give the class a try (since it was my favorite in GW 1), but I don't think I'll be playing one in GW 2, based on what I've seen. It's almost a completely different class...

It looks like conditions are the biggest focus of Mesmers in GW 2. However, from the looks of that video, the conditions Mesmers inflict won't stick very long (it looks like they're only on for 1-2 seconds). Additionally, a lot of skills seem to inflict random conditions, so the whole element of timing your hexes is gone, too. Holding on to Backfire or an interrupt is a thing of the past.

Guess I'll start exploring Warrior v. Guardian more seriously now.

Alaris
20-02-2012, 18:08
Think of clones and phantasms as visual hexes.

If anything, I am even more excited about mesmer now. I think the finess will make more of a difference in how effective you are... spamming skills seems to be a tactic that will work, but not well. I didn't like how in GW1, you could end up bringing roughly 0% contribution to the fight if you played badly. Good play should be rewarded, but bad play should still do something.

There's enough ranged weapons to the mesmer imo, I like having some melee options. It will give me some thief-like play without having to make a thief. But I do plan to spend most of my mesmer time at a range.

RD
20-02-2012, 18:16
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you didn't like playing Mesmer in GW 1?

It seems to me like Mesmer 2.0 is aimed at people like you, who didn't like GW 1 Mesmer gameplay. There's no finesse anymore, I stand by that. You don't stand at the back line picking your hex targets, spreading your hexes out, timing your interrupts. Now you leap into combat, dodge attacks, create a flashy clone, fire pistols, shoot laser beams, and debuffs are random.

I liked that you had to have a level of skill to contribute in GW 1, especially for professions like Mesmer.

Art
20-02-2012, 18:25
I'll reserve judgement but I think RDarken has a point regarding how mesmers will be played.

Proof, of course, is in the eating.

-Art

Alaris
20-02-2012, 18:30
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you didn't like playing Mesmer in GW 1?

You are somewhat wrong, so let me explain.

The mesmer and I have a bit of a love/hate relationship. I loved how I could pull off some really cool combos and how I could really hurt foes via finesse, well-timed play, and using my knowledge. I really appreciated the mesmer at its finest.

However, as much as I liked the gameplay and the knowledge required, the mesmer at times was too punishing. Sometimes I would quickly use up my good skills and end up with either a full bar recharging, or a bunch of skills I had no reason whatsoever to cast on foes. So I ran into times where I was staring at the screen, waiting to play.

Also, while I like intellectual play, I don't care much for the combination of twitch and encyclopedia. I know some people know every skill and which need to be interrupted, but not me. Especially when I also need to keep track of what I can interrupt with what, that is an unnecessary degree of complexity I don't care for.

Now, I think your concerns are more cosmetic than gameplay. Yes, the new mesmer is flashy, but I maintain that phantasms and clones are just like hexes, except that they are show in the game rather than as debuff icons. Also, they made playing the mesmer more visual, which is nice because one common complaint was that people didn't know what mesmers do. Now they will.

But gameplay-wise, I think it will take a lot of skill and finess to play well the mesmer in GW2. I think ANet captured the gameplay spirit fairly well. Hexes are still in, but in visible form. Twitch is still in, but now they act mainly via shatters. Conditional stuff is still in, but it's less punishing than it was.

I'll admit that there is less twitch than before though (which I am happy with, it was fun to twitch but I wouldn't want this to become central to my gameplay). There is also less possibility for failing hard, which I consider is good because a good game should distinguish excellent players from good players, but to make bad players feel even worse about their performance is really not justified.

That's my impression / opinion anyway.

RD
20-02-2012, 18:44
Now, I think your concerns are more cosmetic than gameplay. Yes, the new mesmer is flashy, but I maintain that phantasms and clones are just like hexes, except that they are show in the game rather than as debuff icons. Also, they made playing the mesmer more visual, which is nice because one common complaint was that people didn't know what mesmers do. Now they will.


Somewhat, yeah. But outside of that, you touch on it a bit more with the twitch gameplay. I was never a real interrupter, so twitch wasn't what I liked about playing Mesmer.

In GW 1, you could see a Warrior, hit it with Empathy. In GW 2, you see a Warrior, have to create a clone, get the clone close enough to the Warrior, then shatter it. And, like I said, it doesn't look like the conditions, as inflicted by Mesmers, last that long. Clones/Phantasms DO simulate hexes, but they do it much differently, in a roundabout way that I'm not crazy about. You might like it, as someone who really likes pet classes. I don't really like the micromanagement that often comes with pet classes (as much as I loved my Beastlord in EQ - that was just summon, buff, and heal, though), so pet classes aren't my style.

While deciding which illusions to use, when to shatter, and how to shatter them is similar to the decisions you had to make on target / hex selection in GW 1, it's way different in execution.

Like Art said, we won't know until we can eat the Mesmers ourselves, but I'm less excited about this class.

raspberry jam
20-02-2012, 18:46
I think that the new mesmer has both good things going for it, and bad things. Clones seem like a cool thing. Laser beams, not so much. I basically concur with RDarken, but think that they show promise.


while I like intellectual play, I don't care much for the combination of twitch and encyclopedia. I know some people know every skill and which need to be interrupted, but not me.What? augh you troll "I like reading, but only the first 15 letters of the alphabet"

Alaris
20-02-2012, 19:13
Clones/Phantasms DO simulate hexes, but they do it much differently, in a roundabout way that I'm not crazy about. You might like it, as someone who really likes pet classes.

I actually don't see clones and phantasms as pets at all. They are far too fragile and too short-lived to count as pets. In fact, clones can be one-hit, and both types disappear when your foe dies. You have almost no AI linked to them, which is fine because they are not meant to tank or follow you around. I see it far more as stacking & unstacking hexes.

The fact that they are in the world only counts to give you a universal way to disspell them... hex removal is done by literally hitting them in the head. Also, mesmers needed to be more visual.

I'm not crazy about shatter skills making the clones run up to target before shattering... seems the delay is good to reduce spike abuse but otherwise bad for twitch. Hexes in GW2 are more delayed, and I can't think of a valid reason for this aside from preventing spike abuses. Still, that'd be my main complaint.


Laser beams, not so much.

That's cosmetic though. I mean, we did end up loving those Jeebus beams, so why not lazers? I can see myself growing fond of them, though I admit at first I was like wtf. But really, would it be all good if it was orbs of purple energy instead?

RD
20-02-2012, 19:24
I want to say it is not just cosmetic, but every argument I come up with is wrong. "Mesmers aren't known for DD!" Energy Surge. "The skill is a ranged attack that drains energy!" Conjure Phantasm. *Grumble*

Phantasms aren't too fragile, though, right? They may disappear after combat, but they can function like disposable pets. Even clones can, though they're more of a "wizard" pet in that you wouldn't want them taking damage directly.

If a mob kills your clone/phantasm, are they affected by a shatter? If not, aren't these things kind of useless in PvP? For a clone, all it would take is an AOE attack to take them out.

raspberry jam
20-02-2012, 19:38
That's cosmetic though. I mean, we did end up loving those Jeebus beams, so why not lazers? I can see myself growing fond of them, though I admit at first I was like wtf. But really, would it be all good if it was orbs of purple energy instead?RoJ looks cool, but that is because it is a beam of divine wrath or something, so it's supposed to look like that. Mesmers are supposed to be "wtf is happening oh wait I accidentally stabbed my own spleen" (aka Clumsiness) or similar. Sure, mesmers were not just hexes, but while other professions were centered around winning by doing their thing, mesmers were more like, winning by making the other guy lose (in various ways). It's hard to explain, but it excludes laser beams.

But sure, that was the GW1 mesmer. Not necessarily the GW2 one, which might be fun nevertheless.

Alaris
20-02-2012, 20:22
I want to say it is not just cosmetic, but every argument I come up with is wrong.

Ah well, you might learn to love GW2 mesmers when you get to play them. There are important differences though that might make it not so.

1) there is more opportunity for direct damage, which imo is good. I do like how you can choose a damage shatter or one that is more shutdown-like.
2) there is more delay, with less opportunity for twitch. This is bad for mesmers who liked reacting to foes.
3) there is somewhat less situational skills, i.e. stuff that only affects casters etc.


Phantasms aren't too fragile, though, right?

They are a bit more resilient. Think of them as a hexes with a longer duration and stronger effects, whereas clones are hexes that take effect on the next time you do something. GW1 hexes were difficult to remove, so are phantasms... but now anyone can remove any hex like anyone can rez.

Best example I can give to explain a clone: think of GW1 mesmer skills that affect the next tie target for attacks or casts a spell, where the attack or spell is interrupted (e.g. clumsiness, wandering eye, guilt, mistrust). A clone is a visual representation of those skills. They make you cast spells or attack, and you end up failing that attack or spell because you targeted the wrong foe. You only lose one attack, but it could have been a strong one. There's a bit of mind play here where players will try to ignore clones, and mesmers will try to get foes to attack their clones instead of themselves.

Or you can shatter your clones to damage or shutdown, but that would be removing hexes for a purpose.


If a mob kills your clone/phantasm, are they affected by a shatter?

You need to decide whether to shatter them, or let them play out their short lifespan.


mesmers were more like, winning by making the other guy lose (in various ways).

Yes yes, and admittedly that had to change. In part because even in GW1, people didn't like that (except those who did), and in part because the GW2 mesmer had to be more self-sufficient, and it's hard to get this to work if you're too focused on shutdown. Shutdown makes sense within a team, to enable others to do their thing without fear...

RD
20-02-2012, 21:32
As I see it, phantasm and clones are closer to Ritualist spirits now: Not super durable (some more than others), and they either continually apply a condition, continually damage the foe, or you can destroy them for a bonus or for extra damage. I liked playing Rit, but not as my Mesmer.

As far as twitch v. delay is concerned, that's not even my problem because I wasn't interrupt. I played proactively: Which target in this group gets hit with Empathy? Of these two groups of two mobs, which group should get Panic? Etc. Having to position your clone first makes that much, much more difficult.


You need to decide whether to shatter them, or let them play out their short lifespan.


This is not where I was going with my question. I was wondering for the sake of PvP. Against mobs, fine, they might let a clone beat on them. But against other players, if a Warrior has two Mesmers beating on him and he uses an AOE attack, there goes the clone and any chance of shattering it.

Alaris
20-02-2012, 21:52
As I see it, phantasm and clones are closer to Ritualist spirits now

Of course, I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that clones and phantasms are quite unlike spirits, and much more like hexes. Unfortunately, I don't think I can explain that better than I already have, we'll just have to wait for you to try it...


As far as twitch v. delay is concerned

I did see that, but I made my reply a bit more comprehensive for other readers.


I played proactively: Which target in this group gets hit with Empathy?

Well, the phantasm positions itself so you just need to be more proactive... but then again, the walk time could be compensated with faster cast time... it's all in the details at this point imo.

What might differ is that hexes, sorry, phantasms are more general-purpose than they were in GW1. Backfire would probably work well on a warrior for example, but otherwise it is essentially the same spell.


Of these two groups of two mobs, which group should get Panic? Etc. Having to position your clone first makes that much, much more difficult.

It makes it as easy, but takes a bit longer to get it done. It does take some of the immediacy away from the mesmer had.


if a Warrior has two Mesmers beating on him and he uses an AOE attack, there goes the clone and any chance of shattering it.

Actually, AoE's have been confirmed as a hard counter to mesmers' clones. But perhaps it's not so bad if your clones makes the warrior (etc) waste their AoE's. Alternatively, you might trigger the shatter before the warrior uses his AoE, and as a bonus he might trigger it anyway therefore entirely wasting it.

I can see myself sending clones and trying to shatter them right before my PvP foe activates his skill, such that he gets the shatter effect and also wastes a skill.

RD
20-02-2012, 22:29
But your clone has to run up to him from where you are (unless he's on top of you) and they're you're dipping into twitch gameplay, right? Because it comes down to hitting that shatter key as fast as you can.

Alaris
21-02-2012, 02:35
I like twitch sometimes, just not encyclopedia twitch though.

Hitting the shatter before my clone gets hit, that's fun. Knowing which 1/2s spell is worth interrupting and which I should refrain from interrupting, that's not fun.

Giggles
21-02-2012, 05:12
Just watched the TotalBiscuit Mesmer gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V6Ckj6--Z0&feature=player_embedded) video and it's pretty much killed my love of Mesmer...

You don't have to use melee weapons. I thought it looked pretty fun going by what was shown in the video. Certainly different then the GW1 mesmer but, it looked like a lot of the intent was there. I'll need to try it to be certain but, it looked fun to me.

shawn
21-02-2012, 08:12
To me, watching the vid only made it clearer that mesmers are going to be the epitome of frustration in pvp.

raspberry jam
21-02-2012, 10:37
To me, watching the vid only made it clearer that mesmers are going to be the epitome of frustration in pvp.Yeah, except they didn't show any PvP whatsoever.

shawn
21-02-2012, 10:55
Yeah, except they didn't show any PvP whatsoever.

r0WX4Cc7TFs

fighting starts around 2:50
1v1s a thief at 6:45
again at 8:30

raspberry jam
21-02-2012, 11:07
I lol'd when the thief turned into a bird. But where is the non-parody version, without all the grunting, silly UI and idiot mechanics?

Simply Kedde
21-02-2012, 11:55
Oh my, how did I never respond to this thread again? Sadface.jpg

Tell me why it is good for bad play to be punished less than being ineffective? Why should it.
It's not enough that playing well is encouraged through better results, playing terribly is supposed to not yield any results at all.
That mesmers now work less on actual long term shutdown and more with a focus on a single person in a skirmish and stalling through confusion I can somewhat live with. It works in other games so it'll work with the system GW2 proposes. It's just taking away from the most innovative and well designed class Anet originally made. It is now no longer nearly as unique. That it seems to also include more random elements is something I'll never understand.

I actually like the fact that they're more visual now. It looks kinda cool and means clueless people have more of a visual cue to tell you're being useful. There's less twitch reaction requirement, which for a competitive game is good when considering cross continental play. The fact that we now rely more on prediction is cool and all, but all I've seen so far seems to indicate less of a focus on timing, which sucks. Timing used to be everything. Just like a ranger prying with his interrupts, you had to have a great overview of the entire battle to realize what was going on, on both teams at all times. This allowed you to strike a ****ing dagger straight to peoples brains when it would hurt the absolute most. The skills I've seen so far seem to just rely on yourself and the foe directly as your opposition. This takes away the entire bunch of unique elements it required of you to be good and replaces them with deception and prediction of a single enemy.

While that can certainly still be fun, it's not anywhere near the same.

Giggles
21-02-2012, 13:13
I read an in interview with the devs about pvping regarding timing. It's different then GW1 but, there still seems to have some of it. They were talking about things like when to use your elite and such. It more or less boiled down to knowing when your opponent was suffering from skill cooldowns so you could exploit them. Knowing what weapons they had equipped so you knew how to exploit them. It sounded like there was some of what was in GW1. It's different but, there still is some of it in there. You're probably not going to have those Japanese twitch stand offs like you sometimes ran into in GW1 and I agree that the mesmer isn't as unique as it was as in GW1. It is such an esoteric class with equally obscure skills that it just doesn't work well as originally implemented with the direction they wanted to take GW2. I think they still capture the "I want to just piss people off" style of play. Which is ok with me.

RD
21-02-2012, 13:39
Oh my god, fighting against a thief looks incredibly annoying. "Oh noes I'm losing LOL DISAPPEAR"

Yeah, that doesn't look like a Mesmer fighting to me heh Looks like a warrior mage.

raspberry jam
21-02-2012, 14:43
They were talking about things like when to use your elite and such. It more or less boiled down to knowing when your opponent was suffering from skill cooldowns so you could exploit them.The thing is, macrotiming always sucks for PvP, there are nearly no exceptions to this rule.

(except when quantification overrules it. example, an FPS where you spawn with 2 grenades. it's macrotiming on when to use them, but that's ok since they are not terribly efficient and the other alternative would be to have you chuck endless grenades, which would be not good.)

Giggles
21-02-2012, 14:51
I agree it isn't as cool as GW1 but, until I get my hands on it my initial impression going off some of the pvp videos is it still looks like fun. There still is some timing required with when to shoot off a skill and how you use them. Right now it looks like there should be enough for me to get a kick out of it while still having some strategy involved.

off topic- the only big concern I have right now is whether the DE are just going to devolve into random zerg fests when something happens. It looks like that's happening in some of the new videos. I hope it's just that these people have very little experience with the game so are just madly flailing around at this point. Watching the Yogscast guys play the mesmer made me sad. He was playing so badly. But, to be fair he hadn't played the game all that much.

on topic- the 1vs1 in that video looks like a **** load of fun. there's a lot of dancing happening. I really like what I saw there.

Simply Kedde
21-02-2012, 16:27
Like I said, I have no doubt playing mesmer will still be fun. I'm pretty sure I'll be playing one myself.
My point was that once again all the skills I really noticed the usage off were basically only reliant on you and the direct opponent. The effects seemed to be linear enough that outside interaction from other teammates wouldn't really change the effectiveness of these skills. That bothers me because gw1 mesmer was the complete opposite, which was what made it so fun and unique.

shawn
21-02-2012, 16:36
Yeah, that doesn't look like a Mesmer fighting to me heh Looks like a warrior mage.
Look man, at least your preferred class is actually in the game in some form. How do you think us monks feel?? Humph!

raspberry jam
21-02-2012, 16:38
Look man, at least your preferred class is actually in the game in some form. How do you think us monks feel?? Humph!<Insert "You Are Not Your ****ing Ranger" copypasta here>

RD
21-02-2012, 16:45
Look man, at least your preferred class is actually in the game in some form. How do you think us monks feel?? Humph!

Awww /comfort

Смерть
21-02-2012, 22:03
The totalbisquit video on the Mesmer had me "seeing double", but after watching this video of PvP between what I assume to be a thief, and a Mesmer.

Looks so awesome.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdQe8tiI4wE

Even though the thief is owning XD

Simply Kedde
22-02-2012, 23:58
Kinda sad that the first 5 minutes of the video was just him getting utterly destroyed by that thief, although I don't hold not being particularly good at the game yet against TB. Not only is he probably completely new to GW and GW2, he's also a person who is supposed to be spending more time shoutcasting and reviewing games than actually playing them.

On a different note, what is up with the stupidly loud footstep sound effects.

djacob
23-02-2012, 00:08
Kedde, that's not TB, just some random media person from curse.com. CMEPTb was just commenting on the video that TB's wife put up (he had to do something else this weekend, so he had her use his media beta invite to make a video).

EnoughAlready
02-05-2012, 20:55
I thoroughly enjoyed playing the beta, and I'm really looking forward to the next one.
I really don't feel that this iteration of the Mesmer is a Mesmer in the traditional sense, and really want to see interrupts and degen (as has been covered elsewhere), so yes, disapointed, but still enjoyed it.

Shawn: What about Gaurdian? It's as much like the Monk as the Minstrel is the Mesmer?

Alaris
02-05-2012, 21:10
Guardian is really not like the monk at all. Closest to healing monk you can get is probably water elementalist, and while there are prots in the game, I don't think any of the professions could ever be described as prot monk.

The guardian is very tough and has good melee skills, more so that I thought. I would describe it more as a dervish if I had to pick a GW1 counterpart (fitting, as dervish had healing skills it could use on allies). Paladin would be the non-GW reference. Most of the prots are placed at your location, so you need to be frontline to be using them well. Those will still protect your midline if you are in-between the foes and the midline, but positioning is very important in protting well. Heals etc might require you to be physically near your allies rather than just in-between allies and foes.

You can play a staff or scepter guardian and provide some backline support with bubbles and heals.

I wouldn't describe guardian as paragon because it felt a lot more active even in a support role, whereas the paragon was mostly spam-on-recharge passive buffs. The monk is too fragile and backline to fit the guardian too, and also the lack of ways you can cast stuff on allies especially with the guardian.

RD
10-06-2012, 00:06
I gave my Mesmer another shot yesterday, with scepter and staff. No me gusta.

It is better than before, but illusions and phantasms are just so dumb to me. The delay in shattering makes them way less useful than hitting a skill, getting an effect like every other class mechanic. Plus, I don't remember the cooldown being so long on shatters. Did they increase it? Makes them even more cumbersome to use.

Tapatalk'd

Raye
10-06-2012, 00:50
I actually love the mesmer play, though with the staff and 2-hand sword. The 2-hand sword is my favorite so far, even on my guardian. I made a point to not play mesmer this beta, but I'll have to check out the shatters to see if they changed anything.

Art
10-06-2012, 07:57
The altered tier system made accessing 'cool' skills a lot harder - puts the mesmer into the weak category as far as initial play goes.

Still, some plenty cool skills around, just not good for soloing with - definitely a good support class but I need a lot more practise with mine to make sure it's all working as it should.

-Art

Alaris
10-06-2012, 16:28
I gave my Mesmer another shot yesterday, with scepter and staff. No me gusta.

The interrupt skills we had in GW1 had pretty long cooldowns too, which you could partly mitigate by bringing many interrupts on your bar. I wonder though, at least for those shatters that interrupt, couldn't they have one illusion teleport and shatter to give that sense of immediacy? That could be a cool fix.

Someone should suggest it.

Beren Iluthiel
11-06-2012, 10:56
I don't know if I'm disappointed or not, the class is very complex, not my usual playstyle for sure.
This is something that intrigues me a lot, the more complex the merrier!
At least we Asura see life this way :afro:

P.S.: I might be wrong, but mesmer class is still a big Work in Progress.

BrotherGrimm
20-06-2012, 21:18
Thought I would be totally POed with no direct interupts, but after playing for the entire weekend, The gameplay kind of grew on me.

It does seem certain that the days of feeling evil pride of single handedly completely shutting down an enemy healer are over....(and not just because healers are absent from GW2....)

*Sigh*

RD
20-06-2012, 21:23
I feel ya, Mesmer brother.

Shoitaan
21-06-2012, 06:53
I was initially shocked and very annoyed at how 'generic' feeling the new mesmer was. It felt like we were reworked to be more of a 'weird' damage dealer instead of the role I loved playing in GW1: The Most Aggravating Foe in the Universe (especially in PvP). One of my fondest memories being from the random arenas where I frustrated a Warrior into rage quitting after 6mins of him trying to kill me...

That being said, I can understand why the old mesmer no longer exists in GW2. The new game is much closer to being a 'normal' MMO and for people coming from a non GW background, the old mesmer wouldn't have been as appealing. Hence they created a class that was more... blatant I guess? Gone are the days when a class could exist purely for shut-down and aggravation duties instead of being simply another damage dealer.

All that said, I had a fantastic time with my mesmer in GW2 once I accepted it was not supposed to be like my GW1 character. There was a period where I was struggling to beat mobs but by the end of the weekend (and switching to staves), I was level 20 and soloing in level 23 areas. I even managed a champion ettin boss solo.

I don't think the class is ready to ship but I think it's well on its way. I think shatter mechanics need a damage boost and most importantly, a much more dramatic animation as currently, both the animation and the damage are mediocre at best.

Alaris
21-06-2012, 16:23
I think the mesmer rework is more for solo gameplay. I mean if you go around solo, being pure interrupt might be fun but if you do no damage it's useless. In a team, it makes sense.

I think the class as reworked works really well for the new game, and I like that generally mesmers are less hit/miss and more general purpose. Some people might not like that.

I think it would be fine though if they fine-tuned to make it a bit closer to the original mesmer, by that I mean less random, less delay for shatters (at least the first shatter), and more ability to reflex interrupt.

sorudo
21-06-2012, 16:29
i just don't get why they are now spamming mirror images instead of just mixing attacks with conditions, the images are pretty much useless (in PvE at least) and the attacks are a joke.
the concept is nice but it doesn't work, it really needs an overhaul to make the skills work as intended.

funny tho, in GW1 they are the most OP prof in the game but in GW2 they are close to useless......lol

RD
21-06-2012, 16:30
I understand why we aren't the same as we were in GW 1, but I wish they'd taken a different approach than the illusions / phantasms.

Erring Ryft
22-06-2012, 00:27
They seemed a bit weak in BWE2, but I still like the concept. Somewhat miss hexes, but not in PvP.


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Alaris
22-06-2012, 00:40
Funny how people complain about phantasms and clones, given how many were actually saying it'd be cool if hexes were implemented that way before the reveal.

RD
22-06-2012, 00:55
I doubt I was one of those saying that lol

Tapatalk'd

Guided Daggers
22-06-2012, 16:18
Just wondering, RDarken, how would you have redesigned the mesmer? I personally find it hard to think of the mesmer profession in the GW2 combat system.

RD
22-06-2012, 16:38
I haven't thought too much about it, I just know I prefer the subtlety of the original class.

I guess I would make them condition masters... I would not have any skills that inflict random conditions or boons; they would inflict specific ones. Conditions would last longer when applied by Mesmers. This is to make up for the lack of hexes. Maybe there'd be a skill that inflicts bleeding and/or burning (similar to Illusion degen in GW1), a skill that inflicts Blind for X seconds (not just next attack missing - like Signet of Midnight), one that inflicts chilled or crippled (Imagined Burden)... Some of them would also apply boons to yourself (or allies near enemy) to simulate the energy gain from GW 1. Some would inflict multiple conditions, like bleeding & vulnerability (Shrinking Armor).

Definitely wouldn't give them clones.

In place of the clone mechanic, I'd probably give them a condition-rip mechanic, similar to the way we used to be able to remove hexes for a benefit. I'd probably keep the effects the same as shatters, but the effect would be immediate since the clone doesn't have to run in. Honestly, just changing that would make me play Mesmer.

I'm not crazy about the beam attacks, either, but they're okay. I'd probably give them some kind of DD attack to replace Energy Burn/Surge.

So, yeah, Mesmer fixed. Make it happen.

Alaris
22-06-2012, 16:58
Mesmers without clones and phantasms, me no like. Me no like at all.

RD
22-06-2012, 17:00
Yeah, but you didn't like Mesmer in GW1.

Too late, decision is made, change is happening.

Erring Ryft
23-06-2012, 01:46
Well you still seem pretty psyched about GW2; what's taken the Mesmer's place in your wounded heart?

FWIW, I played a lot of Mesmer in GW1; probably my second fav after monk. I miss classic interrupts, but there are still ways to disrupt that fill that void enough for me. Maybe the feeling of the old Mesmer was already fading for me a bit when they turned them from misunderstood hipsters to ridiculously OP'd armor-ignoring damage dealers in GW.


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RD
23-06-2012, 01:55
I actually didn't even play an interrupt Mesmer. I played Domination. Hex, hex, hex! Punishment for any actions.

Warrior is going to be my main in GW2. Also really enjoyed the Ranger (which I HATED in GW 1).

Erring Ryft
23-06-2012, 02:39
I got soooooo bored of ranger in GW. Definitely loving it in GW2 right along with ya though; love all the evasive moves of sword/dagger.


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Alaris
23-06-2012, 02:58
Ranger was my first GWAMM, but it's low on my top 6. Rit was my other GWAMM, derv my 3rd fav.

Top 3 in GW2 are guardian, engineer, and mesmer. I have yet to try elementalist, I might swap for engineer in I really like it. Two summons + water ftw.

RD
23-06-2012, 04:00
Kinda funny... actually, this inspired a poll in my head.

Tapatalk'd

EnoughAlready
02-08-2012, 19:11
I enjoy playing the Minstrel as a class, but pretending it is a Mesmer is sacrilege as far as I am concerned.

Domination and Inspiration all the way for Mesmer.

I'd probably play Necro, but I don't like the gunky-greenness of everything... so I'll probably play... ... I don't know :-(

I wanted to be a Mesmer :,,,,,(

shadowhand
04-08-2012, 00:00
I enjoy playing the Minstrel as a class, but pretending it is a Mesmer is sacrilege as far as I am concerned.

Domination and Inspiration all the way for Mesmer.

I'd probably play Necro, but I don't like the gunky-greenness of everything... so I'll probably play... ... I don't know :-(

I wanted to be a Mesmer :,,,,,(

A minstrel is someone that plays an instrument or sings a song.

I haven't ever heard of them using any kind of magic or fighting things. The new mesmers are fun to play though, which I can't say for the old ones... And I played through all 3 chapters and the expansion with one in Guild Wars.

I mean I understood the functions of the skills and how to exploit them to beat pve and even pvp situations, however I never actually had a good time with the mesmer profession. I had fun with the new mesmer class in the betas. So I'm actually positively surprised about the mesmer in GW2.

RD
04-08-2012, 04:14
Popular opinion seems to be : If you liked GW 1 Mes, you won't like GW 2 Mes. Opposite is true, as well.

On the topic of Minstrels... D&D bards play instruments, cast, and fight. It's a fairly common trope. Both EverQuests have similar classes, LotRO has a Minstrel, I'm sure there are zillions more, too!

Tapatalk'd

shawn
04-08-2012, 04:28
What about those that liked gw1 mes, didn't expect gw2 mes to be like gw1, and still like gw2 mes?

Put me down for that one. Clones and portals and confusion, hell yes.

Raye
04-08-2012, 04:29
But but... I liked the gw1 mesmer, and i like the gw2 mesmer D=

I don't think any class plays like the gw1 predecessor to be honest. The mesmer is no exception, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Not even the ele plays the same way as the gw1 ele. I think if you go in with the gw1 pre-conceptions you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

kokabel
04-08-2012, 14:23
I'm another one who liked the GW1 mesmer and enjoys the GW2 mesmer.

They feel very different, and I will miss my GW1 mesmer a whole lot. I'm going to miss Psychic Instability and Power Block the most. The GW2 mesmer lacks some of the outright viciousness - I have fond memories of many rages caused by either playing as a mesmer, or playing against good mesmers... but I can live with it.

GW2 Mesmers are incredibly annoying, and in PvP it often feels like that I can run circles around groups of 2-3 people until help arrives, thus stopping them from capping points and moving on. I can't get kills in such outnumbered situations, but I can Blink and Dodge forever and ever, making an absolute nuisance of myself. They feel like a good class for running back and forth between team splits (especially on Forest and Foefire), helping where they are needed while keeping an eye on the points and negating the other team's efforts to make progress. I do luvs them a lot. :3

RD
04-08-2012, 14:38
Okay, fine, go ahead and prove me wrong. :sad:

shadowhand
04-08-2012, 14:48
Well, I didn't _hate_ playing my mesmer in GW.

However I enjoyed my other characters quite a lot more from a pure gameplay point of view I mean. It was just much less tedious to play my necromancer or even the assassin when Factions was new. In my opinion, mesmers should be annoying to their opponents, not to the people actually playing them.

Which was sadly my experience throughout the first game. Not that I didn't love the idea of them. I did. Tremendously. I liked their armor, their place in the lore and their function in the gameplay.

But it was hard to actually have any fun with the class I found (well, until we got Sunspear skills. That actually made it a lot easier for me.)

The GW2 mesmer is fun to play right out of the box (in my opinion.)

So yeah, I'll definately be giving my GW2 mesmer some more screen time than my poor oft-deleted (because something always struck me as a bit "off" with the male faces and the female armor.) then remade mesmers in GW.

And good point on the bard. I guess that's the power of synonyms. I never associated a minstrel with anything other than a performer, but I'd take a bard in my party any day in a D&D session. Mainly because I loved the old Bard's Tale games and their slogan: "When the going gets tough, the bard goes drinking."

Alaris
04-08-2012, 18:26
To re-state my feeling about the GW1 mesmer.

I loved the idea, the gameplay, and all that. I mean, shutdown isn't my fav gameplay but I thought they did it well with the mesmer skills. It was interesting to play.

The hate part though, which I cannot deny, was only because of all the professions, the mesmer was the most unforgiving. If I was slow or not focused, I was as good as c+space, or even worse. But this is also part of the love part because it made me learn.

I preferred the other professions because I could, if I wanted to, run more casual relaxed builds.

-----

So you can't say I hated the GW1 mesmer, you can however say I had a love/hate relationship.

EnoughAlready
04-08-2012, 22:11
A minstrel is someone that plays an instrument or sings a song.

Referring to the GW2 thing as the Minstrel is actually a reference back to ANets own reveal of the class, youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TczkHagUW3k).

I refer to the GW2 profession as the Minstrel because it doesn't have the same skill, finesse or shear class as the Mesmer. It is a buffoon, a purple hued dps.

I've enjoyed playing the Minstrel when I've forgotten that it's supposed to be my favourite class. When I remember, I'm struck by a shear utter disappointment at how far short it falls from the Mesmer. No interrupt, no degen pressure, no hexes. Not a Mesmer.

I've commented before, and will again, you can put an Aston Martin badge on a Ford proton, and tell people you're giving them an Aston, that doesn't mean it's true. Even if you really really want them to think it. Quite Simply, it is not a Mesmer.

It's a Minstrel

Raye
04-08-2012, 23:05
I think you're mostly complaining about gw2 not being gw1, not necessarily the mesmer. The mechanics of gw1 don't necessarily have a place in gw2 [the hexes in particular] It is a different game, you can't expect it to play the same way. I think ArenaNet did a wonderful job just capturing the essence of the mesmer, but never set out to make the gw2 mesmer to be the same thing with better graphics. More to the point, the mesmer in gw1 was supposed to be some sort of duelist. Which they never fully implemented, but did implement properly in gw2. So there's also that.

Also a mesmer, by definition, is someone who messes with your mind. Not someone who interrupts, degens and hexes you. The gw2 mesmer messes with your mind just as much as the gw1 mesmer without using the same mechanics.

It is not a minstrel because you say it's a minstrel. You can not like the class; that's not a crime... but honestly, you sound stubborn and determined to not like it because the gw1 mechanics are gone.

RD
04-08-2012, 23:31
For what it's worth, while I don't like the GW 2 Mesmer, the changes seem to have made the class a lot more popular: Mesmer was easily one of the least-popular professions in GW 1 and it seems to be about as popular as the others in GW 2.

Raye
05-08-2012, 00:03
I think that's mainly because in gw1 you couldn't play a mesmer unless you already knew how to play everything else moderately well. That's not true in gw2, so I think that's by enlarge why the mesmer gained popularity in gw2.

shawn
05-08-2012, 00:47
I really don't see where you guys are saying it's a purple hued dps. But okay. Especially the complaints that there's nothing that punishes the actions of other players - no, only an entire condition dedicated to it: Confusion. What they changed is they made it more obvious what a mesmer is doing, so that the average Joe PuG Warrior might have a chance of actually wanting to take a mesmer in their party.

RD
05-08-2012, 01:08
My issue with the changes is that you have to summon a clone, then the clone has to run in to shatter. That's really it.

Tapatalk'd

Raye
05-08-2012, 01:10
I've heard complaints about that mechanic... and I don't understand the problem. I much rather the clone run to my target to shatter, than it shattering right there and then, when s/he may or may not be close enough to my target. The summoning of the clone itself, I see it mostly as a routine upkeep, like SoS rits. They just had to make spirits every once in a while.

RD
05-08-2012, 01:31
My problem with therun in mechanicis that it exists instead of an instant effect like original mesmers. If they shattered immediately and still provided the effect, maybe I could live with clones, but the two together isn't my style.

Tapatalk'd

Raye
05-08-2012, 01:32
Well if they shattered immediately, you'd have to make sure that they were standing in the right place before you could shatter them. There's no real way to control the clone once it is summoned. So it turns into "c'mon red dot, just come a bit closer so i can shatter this"

shawn
05-08-2012, 01:36
My issue with the changes is that you have to summon a clone, then the clone has to run in to shatter. That's really it.

Tapatalk'd

What's the alternative? Clones 24/7? That'd be broken as ****, man.

RD
05-08-2012, 01:46
I outlind how i'd redesign the mesmer a few pages back, but I would probably remove clones totally.

Tapatalk'd

Erring Ryft
05-08-2012, 02:58
I like the clones. Butterflies! Butterflies everywhere!

Also, did confusion get way more powerful in BWE3, or did I just miss it before?


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Raye
05-08-2012, 03:59
I don't know... I mostly played mesmer during the first BWE. I'd be curious though to find out if anyone knows.

The whole dualist-mesmer thing is something I totally love. It sounds awesome to me. I've said tons of times before, the mesmer with the greatsword is the most fun.

shawn
05-08-2012, 04:20
It used to be: 1 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per skill use

Now it's: 25 + 0.5 * Level + 0.08 * Condition Damage per stack per skill use

Erring Ryft
05-08-2012, 05:26
Well that's a nice little change, now isn't it. All these little tweaks just make it harder to settle on a main.


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Egal
05-08-2012, 07:39
I'm also not a fan of the way shatter works. At one point, early in GWE1, I positioned myself above a melee enemy who, to reach me, would have to follow a long c-shaped path to get in melee range of me, while always remaining in my casting range. I summoned a clone and tried the shatter to see it in action. The earth elemental had stopped trying to reach me, so I watched as the clone followed the same extended path to run down to him. Before it got there I'd auto-1ed the elemental to death. Great stuff.

Various leap-to-your-enemy skills exist and I'd like to see clones get this ability. They're simply illusions after all; how hard can it be for them to hop around a bit?

Now I've got a pc set up that'll actually allow me to see what's going on in the game, I'm looking forward to checking out line-of-sight issues. Mesmers, as casters, didn't need line-of-sight in GW. As far as I've been able to determine, this is gone in GW2. And so, the game feels odd to me. In a game where movement has been freed up so much, and positioning and repositioning has been made so much easier, I find I'm forced to put my mesmer in harms way to a greater extent than in GW. Doesn't quite feel right.

Post is already too long so I'll just quickly add that I don't like RNG skills at all.

Anyway, I'll be giving it another go once the game launches and may well come to like the GW2 version after all, when played on a decent computer.

shawn
05-08-2012, 07:42
There should be both versions of clones, ones that spawn next to you and ones that spawn in melee range of the foe. This way the person you're fighting isn't exactly sure which one's real and which one isn't.

Speaking from a purely pvp perspective, anyway.

Beren Iluthiel
05-08-2012, 10:49
Asura mesmer.
How, I repeat, how could you be disappointed?
Think about it, it's all you've waiting for all these years.

Jokes apart, mesmer are fine.... or maybe not, honestly they fell like they're not finished at all and it's not good when you're 20 days away from release (wooohooo).
But I felt like mesmer has lot of potential, even if a level 7 skale was unkillable by me. I was like "Oh dear, what a stupid I am, I can't use this class properly"
and not
"mesmer sux"
Remember....Asura mesmer.

[EDIT]: I was talking about PvE mesmer. PvP? honeslty, I don't give a damn *goes away in the rain*

EnoughAlready
05-08-2012, 17:36
For what it's worth, while I don't like the GW 2 Mesmer, the changes seem to have made the class a lot more popular: Mesmer was easily one of the least-popular professions in GW 1 and it seems to be about as popular as the others in GW 2.


I think that's mainly because in gw1 you couldn't play a mesmer unless you already knew how to play everything else moderately well. That's not true in gw2, so I think that's by enlarge why the mesmer gained popularity in gw2.

This is something I've argued throughout. The GW2 Mesmer takes no skill to play.
Just run in circles with a broadsword, not worrying about what else is happening, '1' constantly repeating doing purple hued dps.


Well if they shattered immediately, you'd have to make sure that they were standing in the right place before you could shatter them. There's no real way to control the clone once it is summoned. So it turns into "c'mon red dot, just come a bit closer so i can shatter this"

As these are supposed to be illusions, in the opponents head, right in there, messing with the mind, it shouldn't matter where it shatters, because it is shattering in their mind.
So the effect should be able to be instant and planned, not require constantly waiting and faffing about. Interruption being opportunistic rather than planned.

Perhaps I would have preferred GW1 with jumping, swimming and prettier graphics, but that isn't what this thread is about, or what I, RDarken, or others are arguing.
I actually quite like the way that illusions work as illusions for instance. However exceedingly little else from the Mesmer has been implemented. Just imagine illusionary burden, with an anvil appearing on your foes back slowing them down. Or Ancestors Visage? A disapproving gran tutting and wagging a finger. Or Conjure nightmare, actually conjuring a nightmare.

I am so very disappointed because the Mesmer could, and should, have been so much better. And with a few tweaks, to make it the tactical dualist (already described), it would be better.
What really really galls is the random boon, random de-buff. Random random random.

Drain enchantment as a healing skill.
Signet of humility should have been in there from the beginning.
Spirit Shackles, but loosing health instead of energy.
Tease could be a 1:1 copy to GW2
So could most of Domination: Backfire, Empathy, Blackout, Complicate, Mistrust, Panic, Thievery, etc, etc, etc.
Wandering eye, Soothing Images, Illusion of weakness, Images of Remorse, Frustration, Fragility, etc, etc, etc.

These could have, and should have, been implemented verboten very easily in GW2 and doing so would infinitely improve the class.
But ooOOooh, we have Clumsiness.

Alaris
05-08-2012, 17:51
Mesmers...

I did suggest the nearest clone should teleport to shatter, instead of running up to the foe. That should fix that imo.

The random stuff, well, randomness is what it is. Some like it, some don't. I don't like random damage, as in you might do lots of damage, or you might not. But random effects, while not my favorite, has its utility. First, it means that over time you are more effective at putting lots of conditions. It also means that foes don't know what to expect, and have a hard time dealing with random conditions. Chaos is also randomness, otherwise it's not chaos. Chaos storm in GW1 was great, but it was not chaotic. It was very predictable.

A lot of mesmer skills are not random. Most in fact. Staff is pretty random, but it's easy to make a mesmer build that is not random. So I see randomness as a flavor you can tap into, like mantras. I don't like how mantras work, but hey, others might, and you won't hear me complain at end that there are mantras. I'll just build using other skills.

Raww
05-08-2012, 19:30
looking forward to playing a mesmer, they seem real coolt o play.

i can say that playing the BWEs as a thief, i didnt have much problems picking out player from clones. i think maybe 2 times i attacked a clone in all 3 BWEs. for me and idk if anyone else felt the same but it was quite easy to see the difference. or that might be me because i have a big eye for detail, and notice things fairly quickly.

shawn
05-08-2012, 19:38
This is something I've argued throughout. The GW2 Mesmer takes no skill to play.
Just run in circles with a broadsword, not worrying about what else is happening, '1' constantly repeating doing purple hued dps.
Cause that's so different from gw1. To be blunt, if you weren't focusing on dps in pve you were being extremely inefficient. To any team with a minute sense of competency, "control" skills were simply not needed.

Erring Ryft
05-08-2012, 19:51
Cause that's so different from gw1. To be blunt, if you weren't focusing on dps in pve you were being extremely inefficient. To any team with a minute sense of competency, "control" skills were simply not needed.

!!


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shawn
05-08-2012, 19:56
Panic wasn't needed. However, it's also not a bar dedicated to interrupting, it's just one skill. In any panic build I was ever linked, the other skills were focused on dps. And if you're taking multiple mesmers, the additional ones would have esurge.

Erring Ryft
05-08-2012, 21:22
I think it made the game a lot easier, necessary or not - and a lot of that ease came from being able to stack ****tons of wastrel's on everything since you knew not much would get off.

I also think that that sort of thing just doesn't make sense in GW2's context. You control and render enemies ineffective by movement abilities - dodging, positioning for backstabs, knockbacks, etc. Having a bar full of skills devoted solely to shutdown/interrupts would be a bit redundant next to that. Now, having a few skills like distortion that augment and increase those abilities is great, but the GW1 mesmer (particularly before the "let's make it a damage dealer" update) just wouldn't work here.

Alaris
05-08-2012, 21:26
Everyone does damage now, the question is what else do they do.

GW2 mesmer seems to do quite a bit of shutdown (especially if you count clones as shutdown, which I do). Blind, confusion, stuff like that... it all adds up to making foes less effective.

raspberry jam
06-08-2012, 13:11
Cause that's so different from gw1. To be blunt, if you weren't focusing on dps in pve you were being extremely inefficient. To any team with a minute sense of competency, "control" skills were simply not needed.Eh, yeah, so? Instead of making mesmer boring and rote they should have improved PvE so that you'd have to play mesmer like PvE mesmer should have been played already back in GW1.

RD
22-10-2012, 17:18
Apparently staff Mesmer is ridiculously powerful and a ton of fun. Mesmer downed skills are crazy good. Y U NO TELL ME?!

I was running around soloing a group of mobs that seemed never-ending. I had as many as six on me at one time. Have to have room to move around, though, I think. And need to be careful about not picking up extra mobs when you're warping and running around.

/conceed

Alaris
22-10-2012, 18:03
I'm using longsword and scepter/something. I don't even know why I put that combo on, it's terrible. Scepter is decent for defensive, but it can't kill fast enough. Longsword is nice to sniping, meh otherwise. But together, it means I really have no good AoE, dps, and even less AoE dps.

If only I can get a few swords as drops, that would make me happy. And a staff. I know I can buy them, but I am too cheap. Yes RD, staff is really good... the initial damage is bad, but it ramps up quick.

Xycury
22-10-2012, 18:26
Staff is crucial with a Mesmer. Anyone running without one is lacking in the only AoE skill along with major conditional damage.

As for Scepter not killing fast enough, it's more support in defense if you have a good offhand.

Sword pairs up well with scepter, and probably the only one. I use the block, which to me is like a half heal/half damage since it mitagates and I can get a clone up. That's two with the sword block. Plus if I dont block, the scepter blinds and the sword dazes if you fire it off.

The Confustion stack is some hefty damage, but only works well on enemies that attack too.

Wanding doesn't do much damange, but it's good to crit and produce some conditions off of that. I have a sigil that bleeds on crit, and have over 45% to crit, so I bleed them quite often, so it ramps up DPS.

Sword Illusion is near top in damage, Staff's warlock is a runner up though. Some say the focus warden but it's too stationary to be truely good plus dies faster than you can get up.

With Sc/Sw and staff I can easily solo groups of vets. With some luck and a good other player, two of us can solo a champ easy.

My clones distract, illusions deal hefty damage when traited.

I may not stand up to a Guardian/Warrior for pure damage soaking, or deal instant death with ranger/theft/necro wells, but for pure dps staying power, I don't think anyone can match to a mesmer.

Plus we're highly defensive when we need to be. After playing as a ele for a long time, I miss my Mesmer. I used to stand up to anyone, block everything... I only ran when I had to, otherwise they were going to get a face full of hurt and clone would pop out.

Ok I'm rambling now....

One thing I do not do often enough, is shatter... if only traits were set to do more on shatter, but there isn't.

Alaris
22-10-2012, 18:36
I shatter pretty often. Basically, if my foe is about to die anyway, or if I have 3 illusions up and I can easily roll up another set of illusions (which is often easy because I bring at least two illusion skills in my optionals), then I shatter.

Scepter/sword seems pretty good defensively, and yes, staff is pretty good all-around. My problem right now is that I don't have a good damage set, this will be easily fixed though when I find a good staff or sword. Also, yes, traits could help a lot, but I am still relatively low level so I don't have access to good traits yet.

RD
22-10-2012, 20:24
I like gun offhand for that stun. Duelist is good damage, too.

EnoughAlready
22-10-2012, 22:19
If I could actually choose my own skill set. You know, what I want to set, not what is ordained for me, it would lay heavily on glamours & illusions.
But I'm not allowed, so there's no point dreaming

Alaris
22-10-2012, 23:07
I'm trying to figure out good traits for someone who produces a lot of clones, and shatters often but randomly. I'll be using staff, and either sword/sword or sword/pistol.

So far, I like the traits that lets my illusions inflict bleeding, that inflict conditions when illusions die, and that help me produce more illusions faster. I'm not sure which ones are good though...

RD
22-10-2012, 23:34
I have to mess around with a trait builder today myself.

JoeKnowMo
23-10-2012, 16:10
I'm trying to figure out good traits for someone who produces a lot of clones, and shatters often but randomly. I'll be using staff, and either sword/sword or sword/pistol.

So far, I like the traits that lets my illusions inflict bleeding, that inflict conditions when illusions die, and that help me produce more illusions faster. I'm not sure which ones are good though...

Rending Shatter (Major Adept in Domination) will add vulnerability to your shatters. Illusionary Persona (Major Grandmaster in Illusions) counts yourself as an illusion for shatters which would go well with a sword. You should probably build for conditions if you decide to spend 30 points in that trait line. Illusionary Elasticity (Major Master in Illusions) adds an an extra bounce to your staff attacks which would help spread conditions. And your Warlock does more damage to foes with conditions...

Alaris
23-10-2012, 16:51
Ok, noobie question here... any tips for how I should build for conditions? I keep hearing that, but I only have a vague idea of how to go about it.

The traits you mention sound good, except, are those better than those I mentioned? I stayed away from shatter traits because I am probably not a reliable shatterer, especially as I keep my clones when I need to be more defensive.

Extra bounce seems great for staff, good for pistol too, but useless for sword/sword.

JoeKnowMo
24-10-2012, 00:31
If you want to increase you condition damage, go for condition gear and put trait points into the Illusions line as it will increase your malice. The Illusion line is most suited to shattering, imho, but the other lines have some good options too.

When you are heavily invested in a trait line, it would pay off to build around it. Also, when you're not heavily invested in a trait line, you don't reap the full benefits from it. For example, the illusions applying bleeding trait is based on critical hits and luckily for us it is in the Dueling trait line. This means you should consider putting more points into Dueling for the increased chance of crits. You should also consider picking Phantasmal Fury (Minor Master in Dueling) to further enhance your chance of crits.

The clones inflicting a random condition is in the Chaos trait line (Major Adept) but it does not apply on shatters and it does not apply for phantasms. It only applies when a clone is killed or when you replace it with a new clone or phantasm. This means you would be better off using a weapon whose clones will stay close to the target.

If you're using a sword then it might be worth getting the trait that reduces sword skill recharge and adds +50 precision (Major Adept in Dueling).

I had an incorrect interpretation of what you meant when you said you shatter "often." You've cleared that up. But if you plan on shattering a lot, then Illusions would probably be your best trait line. If you plan on using your illusions as a significant source of damage, the Dueling trait line will add some oomph to them while Inspiration can be a good secondary trait line. However, note that not a single trait in Dueling benefits from shatter. If you're going to shatter a lot, then Illusions as your main (since it also reduces shatter recharge time) and probably Domination as your secondary would work well.

I'm not even level 50 yet so take all this with a grain of salt.

Alaris
24-10-2012, 04:30
You've given me lots to think about, so thanks a lot for this.

It's easier to pick your synergies when you know what those are! Good point about boosting my crit chance, I'll be keeping an eye on that.

It's a toss up between shatters and clones dying then, because both happen fairly often, it's not clear which one I should emphasize... I was more going for clones dying because I thought it worked on shatter, but if you say it doesn't, then it's not as good as I thought. Still good, but more so for when I am losing clones often which means I am losing a fight. When I shatter that's because I am winning... so I have to pick between being stronger on wins or less weak on losses.

Xunlai Agent
28-12-2012, 13:14
PvE Mesmer is absolutely beast, people complaining about this are wrong! I guess haters gonna hate...

Mesmers sucked so hard in Guild Wars 1 PvE it hurt to play and you people are complaining that you don't like the new incarnation over the old one? That is insane, I have no words...