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Fluffball
25-03-2012, 18:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8&feature=plcp&context=C49e1c9dVDvjVQa1PpcFPmU4rYsxQ0vSAeaJNLEICb cks8ka3XOzs%3D

There are several times when the warrior or other party members go from full health (over 5,000) to dead in a single attack. In one case the entire party dies from an AoE. Why is that fun, again? Didn't they learn the lesson of ele bosses in GW1?

Nemeon Lion
25-03-2012, 18:36
You're forgetting you can dodge.

You also forgot that anyone can rezz.

It's not the same as GW1.

Jez
25-03-2012, 18:59
(Insert damage is too damn high meme)
It is quite different from guild wars 1.

Firstly, they are in the hard mode of a dungeon. It's meant to be taxing. If you are downed, anyone can bring you back up. Some classes can even pick themselves back up (or at least the ranger can). And like previously mentioned, if you die, anyone can rez as well.

Most of the time when the warrior dropped health in that fight, it was because he walked into a whirlwind. Melee generally always have issues with surviving fights.

And lastly, of course, it's still beta, the damage isn't final.

djacob
25-03-2012, 19:33
You're forgetting you can dodge.

You also forgot that anyone can rezz.

It's not the same as GW1.

Exactly, dodge will be an important aspect of the game, and you'll need to learn to use it well if you want to do explorable dungeons which afaik are what anet plans on being the most difficult content in the game. There will be similar loot accessible through other means such as crafting for those who don't want to spend the time or simply aren't good enough.

The issue in gw1 was that there were limited ways to stay alive when the damage got increased, and almost all those ways were based on what skills you took, not on your actual ability to use said skills, although I'm not saying skill didn't play into anything. But taking a derv into doa when it was first released was a bad idea. Especially in gloom, as scythes were gimped with something like 50% attack success rate, and all the enemy groups had heavy enchant removal.

In gw2, there will always be a way to change your playstyle to fit the scenario. There are no melee only classes, so you'll need to learn to use ranged weapons and how to get out of/stay away from fights when the monsters do a lot of pbaoe. It could be worse, in other games there are some dungeons with similar pbaoe heavy damage. However, there are classes that are strictly melee dps. They're basically excluded from such dungeons. At the very best, teams will allow one mdps in such dungeons.

The nicest thing about gw2 is that they telegraph their attacks and it's easy to understand what's going on. No learning the cycle of the boss, where everything happens in a specific order and no explanation (other than on a wiki) is given on what any of it means. I hope fights like this never happen:

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/N%27Kari,_Keeper_of_Secrets

There is no in game indicator of what the orbs do, and they move much faster than the player. Combined with the fact that once a tank picks up the purple orb he aggroes the boss... while she is doing 7500 dmg cleaves that are about as wide as the room (dps and healers normally have 5000-7000 hp) and most tanks just decide to try and tank both the hits with their 10,500 hp, hoping that the healers can restore 4500+ hp in about 3-5 seconds and that they can block all the other attacks during that time period. Although, from what I read, destruction players (but not order) could turn the 7500 damage into 1 dmg. There were no ways to mitigate or block the damage for order. At least they finally got rid of the bug where the cleaves were doing 10,000 damage.

Erring Ryft
25-03-2012, 20:34
nthing the "It's not the same" thing. As we all keep playing and getting better, I imagine we'll get better at preemptively dodging the big attacks and moving out of the AoE.

Not too many folks managed pre-protting to avoid dying on those ele bosses the first time they did it (at least before the advent of spamming SY! on an imbagon to a stupid degree). This'll be the same thing, with explorable mode having a steep learning curve. But it looks like it's going to be damn fun to win.

Fluffball
25-03-2012, 20:41
I think it would be more reasonable to have half your health taken away for big hits. Instantly killing you is dumb because there is zero room for error, you must constantly be perfect.

Erring Ryft
25-03-2012, 21:13
Possibly, but for the hardest mode out there, on a boss, I WANT a terrible misstep like balling up for AoE to equal instant death. Having one or two people one-shotted sucks, but it forces you to work as a team to get everyone back in the fight. Far too many people in GW keep spamming their damage skills at the boss when the party would be better served by a rez. If they can't reasonably expect to win by doing so, they might be forced to get better.


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Zayren
25-03-2012, 21:13
Saying "just because anyone can revive" does NOT make instant kills somehow okay.

Running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying isn't very fun

Alaris
25-03-2012, 21:18
Afaik the place is meant for level 35, so at 30 you take way more damage than you normally should. I assume too that at 40 you might be able to survive even better.

Erring Ryft
25-03-2012, 21:29
I think they mentioned that you'd scale down to the level of the dungeon, so out-leveling the difficulty shouldn't be an option. Regardless, making the mistake of all of you balling up should get you killed on the hardest difficulty setting.

It reminds me of when they ramped up the UW quests and everyone complained that quests like SoG and 4H had too many enemies to deal with in HM, so they drastically reduced the number of spawns instead of forcing people to adapt (even though many already had). Some things should be hard. If you have to dodge really well to avoid being one-shotted by that boss, then you should learn to dodge really well. If you can't, your team needs to learn how to recover quickly. If it's not your idea of fun, there are other ways to experience the content that aren't as difficult. I don't think everything needs to be toned down just so the entire population can win without learning.


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Alaris
25-03-2012, 23:12
You do get down-levelled, but only to a point. Getting in with a higher level still makes it slightly easier, it's not clear though by how much.

Nemeon Lion
25-03-2012, 23:53
Saying "just because anyone can revive" does NOT make instant kills somehow okay.

Running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying isn't very fun


So zerging the boss should be a viable tactic. Gotcha.


The insta-ko people are complaining is when the player in the video run right into the boss when he used his whirlwind. Last time I checked, that thing is very well visible. Instant kills are only bad when the player has really no way to avoid them (aka, GW1 ele boss's AoE skills). If you are able to telegraph those skills and give all the player tools to avoid them, you just turned a lame mechanic into one that rewards skill, active positioning and actually watching the screen instead of an UI.

I thought that was a good thing?

RD
26-03-2012, 02:27
Also, beta. When you guys get in, /bug this stuff and they'll tweak it (which they probably already are - I somehow doubt ANet is looking to make a game where we're getting one-shotted).

Zayren
26-03-2012, 05:40
So zerging the boss should be a viable tactic. Gotcha.


The insta-ko people are complaining is when the player in the video run right into the boss when he used his whirlwind. Last time I checked, that thing is very well visible. Instant kills are only bad when the player has really no way to avoid them (aka, GW1 ele boss's AoE skills). If you are able to telegraph those skills and give all the player tools to avoid them, you just turned a lame mechanic into one that rewards skill, active positioning and actually watching the screen instead of an UI.

I thought that was a good thing?

hm yes thanks for taking that to the natural conclusion

all bosses should have no attacks and just let me beat on them until they die and I get loot

yes precisely

Simply Kedde
26-03-2012, 07:53
Actually requiring a certain level of mechanical skill in order to complete something that's among the hardest content available in the game? Oh ****, burn the heretics.

kokabel
26-03-2012, 12:53
I like the scary, one-shot bosses. Gives everyone lots to do and think about while trying to take it down.

bearsfwd
26-03-2012, 13:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2rAK0Q-8&feature=plcp&context=C49e1c9dVDvjVQa1PpcFPmU4rYsxQ0vSAeaJNLEICb cks8ka3XOzs%3D

There are several times when the warrior or other party members go from full health (over 5,000) to dead in a single attack. In one case the entire party dies from an AoE. Why is that fun, again? Didn't they learn the lesson of ele bosses in GW1?


Saying "just because anyone can revive" does NOT make instant kills somehow okay.

Running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying and respawning and running in and dying isn't very fun

It is still beta after all, and you have to take your mind out of GW mode, since it is going to be much different than what we are used to. No, getting one-shotted is not fun, but neither is just standing around using skills. We'll HAVE to dodge this time, we'll HAVE to keep moving around, and it sounds like we'll HAVE to make good use of conditions.

In fact, the one shot kills are a good thing, because it basically is a way of saying, "you want to tank? ok now you die!" It seems to me that not only did they kill the "holy trinity" by how they designed the classes, but also in how they designed the enemies as well.

However, I'm reserving all judgement till I play the game myself. It looks great so far though.

Nemeon Lion
26-03-2012, 14:51
hm yes thanks for taking that to the natural conclusion

all bosses should have no attacks and just let me beat on them until they die and I get loot

yes precisely


Nah, that's too hard.

All the bosses should die and automatically transfer their loot to my inventory when I enter a 20 meter radious around them.

That's way more balanced.

Fluffball
26-03-2012, 23:01
No, getting one-shotted is not fun, but neither is just standing around using skills. We'll HAVE to dodge this time, we'll HAVE to keep moving around, and it sounds like we'll HAVE to make good use of conditions.

In fact, the one shot kills are a good thing, because it basically is a way of saying, "you want to tank? ok now you die!" It seems to me that not only did they kill the "holy trinity" by how they designed the classes, but also in how they designed the enemies as well.

A better way is to have you lose half your health. Then you have a chance to learn, rather than learning via dying. You still can't tank if you lose half your health in a major hit, but it's not super dumb and you just die because you encounter something you haven't seen before.

It's like teaching someone to fight by stabbing them in the face with a bayonet.

Alaris
26-03-2012, 23:05
Agreed Fluffball. You want to teach by scaring people, not actually killing them, if you can avoid it.

I've played some games like Shadow of the Colossus and Guild Wars 2 :) that can show that you need to learn to play better without killing you every time.

Erring Ryft
26-03-2012, 23:16
Pretty much figure that's what the not hardest mode possible is for. You learn in normal mode, then put into practice on the hard mode or get killed messily. If you didn't learn in easy mode, your genes are removed to the nearest waypoint.


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Simply Kedde
27-03-2012, 08:54
Exactly. You learn all the way through the game, then try to take on the most challenging tasks the game can throw at you. You're not involutarily thrown at those bosses, you choose to go against them, knowing they're difficult and unforgivingly punishing. It's not like they're available until you complete the storymode, in which case you're supposed to have learned wtf to do.

What is a challenge if even the hardest encounters in the game won't punish you for not having learned what the entire length of the game up until that point has supposedly tried to beat into your skull. That's right, it's not a challenge.

Sigmatics
27-03-2012, 20:00
Explorable mode dungeons are pretty much the hardest content in the PvE game, so I guess it should be like that, or else people are gonna be bored very quickly.

Fluffball
28-03-2012, 02:44
I think some of you aren't understanding. I'm not complaining that the dungeon is too hard. I've never played it. I'm saying that anything that takes you from 5,900 health to dead in a single attack (no gradation at all) is too much. Does anyone have any specific reason why instantly killing you is better than giving you warning. Even taking 90% of your health would seem acceptable, but INSTANT death is just dumb. You're at full health, then you're dead. Get it? There is no in between. It's not like, oh no I'm getting hit a bunch I should react or change something or move or anything, you just instantly die.

Alaris
28-03-2012, 04:00
Frankly, I would cap at 34% health. If you can die in 3 hits, and you get attacked often enough, there's no way you can out-heal this. And it gives you place to learn and do a few mistakes.

It's pretty trivial to reduce the damage but increase it's frequency so that your chances of success is the same... and that is a better way to teach than one-shots.

Erring Ryft
28-03-2012, 04:30
Frankly, I would cap at 34% health. If you can die in 3 hits, and you get attacked often enough, there's no way you can out-heal this. And it gives you place to learn and do a few mistakes.

It's pretty trivial to reduce the damage but increase it's frequency so that your chances of success is the same... and that is a better way to teach than one-shots.

I could see this as an option in story mode. In explorable mode, I'm with Kedde - your warning is the boss telegraphing the big hit. Get out of the way, or get your *** handed to you. I can respect that you don't like getting insta-killed when you screw up, but I get a way bigger rush out of avoiding that insta-kill hit than I do avoiding one that won't kill me (it's like landing RoF at exactly the right moment). If the boss insta-killed you without telegraphing, or there wasn't a good way to avoid the hit (e.g. not balling up for AoE) I might even agree with you. But that isn't the case here.

You can get the play experience you want (without really powerful boss attacks) in a crapton of the other areas of the game (including dungeons). Not EVERYTHING needs to be toned down to match that; some of us want a bigger challenge.


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Alaris
28-03-2012, 06:00
He might telegraph it, but if you don't know where to run...

I mean, is it going to be AoE (run away from boss) or straight attack (strafe around boss) or even he might jump at you (run towards boss).

The first time around, one-hit kills are dumb.

And it's not about toning down anything. In GW2, healing won't keep you fighting forever, especially against bosses.

bearsfwd
28-03-2012, 11:57
I think some of you aren't understanding. I'm not complaining that the dungeon is too hard. I've never played it. I'm saying that anything that takes you from 5,900 health to dead in a single attack (no gradation at all) is too much. Does anyone have any specific reason why instantly killing you is better than giving you warning. Even taking 90% of your health would seem acceptable, but INSTANT death is just dumb. You're at full health, then you're dead. Get it? There is no in between. It's not like, oh no I'm getting hit a bunch I should react or change something or move or anything, you just instantly die.

I'll be completely honest, I just watched the part where the fought the ghost guy (at 15:15 when the character we are watching goes down and the commentator says about the aoe pretty much decimating the entire team). The character was down to around 1000 health and died. I don't recall EVER seeing the character die in one hit. There were times where he got hit multiple times consecutively, but you could tell they were individual hits because the health bar paused just slightly as it was dropping, signifying multiple hits.

Can you give me a time in the video where he gets downed in one hit from nearly full health? Because I don't remember seeing one. And don't give me one where someone gets killed by a trap. We know from GW that traps are VERY deadly, either insta-kill, or major damage.

---EDIT---

Ok, at like 11:08, they are fighting the spider boss thing. He does get hit twice, one for maybe 500, then for the rest of his health. That particular one does seem a bit excessive. It wasn't attacking him, but then turned, hit hims once, then a second time, downing him. It may be one of two things, OP skill, or the guy has broken armor. Remember, your armor only breaks when you return to a waypoint. And, if I recall, at some point, we saw the character screen and it looked like all his armor was broken, I don't know if it was before that particular fight though.

I don't know though, I'm torn about the issue. In GW hard mode, there were plenty of times that I got killed in one hit. And explorable mode for the dungeons is just basically that, hard mode. And I'd hate to see it turn into a snoozefest, especially if the developers intended the attacks to be that strong. On the other hand, if they are going to have bosses that can kill you in one hit and you have armor that can break from dying too much, there needs to be something done with the downed state, but what, I don't know.

Alaris
28-03-2012, 12:24
I think he was extrapolating from GW1 bosses, some of which totally can one-hit you.

If some GW2 bosses can do that, I think it would be bad.

Radieth Darkstar
28-03-2012, 13:04
I think he was extrapolating from GW1 bosses, some of which totally can one-hit you.

If some GW2 bosses can do that, I think it would be bad.

It depends entirely on the context of it. at least for me it does.

i have no problems with a boss having a OHK attack as long as the attack is clearly telegraphed and obvious the first time you see it that it is going to be a big badass attack. After that if you still get hit by it then its your own fault for not using the dodge ability.

Don't get me wrong on this i don't want to see all the bosses being able to OHK you but i would be totally ok with the occassional boss having this kind of power attack if it is done right.

Fluffball
28-03-2012, 13:29
Ok, at like 11:08, they are fighting the spider boss thing. He does get hit twice, one for maybe 500, then for the rest of his health. That particular one does seem a bit excessive. It wasn't attacking him, but then turned, hit hims once, then a second time, downing him.

This may be the time, I'll look at it when I get home from work. Actually no I won't I'll be at the gym until bedtime. I'll take a look tomorrow. I'm fairly certain the time that inspired the thread there was no preliminary hit first, I rewound it a few times looking for any warning signs the guy was going to die. Maybe I missed the mini-hit though.

The funny thing is, TB was talking about how bosses will randomly attack various party members. :grin:

I hope your theory about armor breaking is correct; you would be 1-hit killed by about anything in GW1 with no armor. Hopefully TBs camera man was not THAT stupid to do a dungeon boss with no armor.

Alaris
28-03-2012, 13:32
I like how in fps games, you often see a boss (or whatever) perform its lethal attack on some other poor schmuck. So you get to learn about it before being confronted by it, so it's fair to expect you to know how to deal with it when you face that foe (or die if you didn't get the message the first time).

Telegraphing a move properly so it's understood the first time is quite possible, but difficult to pull off well.

Simply Kedde
28-03-2012, 13:36
How do you realistically propose to make the hardest content in the game hard at all if not by giving it overwhelming amounts of damage? I know full and well it's not the ideal way of dealing with difficulty and challenge, but again as I've said before I don't expect anything else given current technology.

It's supposed to be hard. If your entire team is allowed to collectively make 10 mistakes in a row and not take a single death from that against a boss in what is basically hardmore elite content. Then what is the challenge in it? What's to keep average joe who is terrible and his 4 buddies from waltzing straigth through it? Because he and his friends certainly aren't supposed to.


I like how in fps games, you often see a boss (or whatever) perform its lethal attack on some other poor schmuck. So you get to learn about it before being confronted by it, so it's fair to expect you to know how to deal with it when you face that foe (or die if you didn't get the message the first time).

Telegraphing a move properly so it's understood the first time is quite possible, but difficult to pull off well.

This you see in story mode the first time around is what I'd be expecting.

Is it also so wrong to have part of a boss challenge revolving around 1 random team member likely getting downed and then having to res him while still fighting? You see why he died and then avoid the **** out of that happening again.

bearsfwd
28-03-2012, 13:39
I hope your theory about armor breaking is correct; you would be 1-hit killed by about anything in GW1 with no armor. Hopefully TBs camera man was not THAT stupid to do a dungeon boss with no armor.

Well, he had armor on, but he had respawned at the waypoint a few times prior to fighting the spider, so he may have had one or two broken pieces. Who knows, that one or two pieces could make all the difference in a boss fight.

There may also have been some other factors that we couldn't see. But until we experience it for ourselves, we can only make assumptions

Alaris
28-03-2012, 13:41
Yes, but my point is that you can have 1 shot kills, or you can just increase normal damage enough that you can't heal it unless you do dodge a good amount of it. Can you dodge this? Ok, maybe you got lucky... can you do it again 10 times?

You could even have degen that is just 1 pip stronger than what you can heal, and that could end up a really difficult challenge.

Fluffball
28-03-2012, 22:36
Well, he had armor on, but he had respawned at the waypoint a few times prior to fighting the spider, so he may have had one or two broken pieces. Who knows, that one or two pieces could make all the difference in a boss fight.

Hurt myself so I'm not at the gym. I thought they all worked until all pieces were broken. Can you repair armor in the field? The party (including 3 devs if I remember right) completely party wiped 8 or so times, plus more individual deaths on the final boss. So I really hope you can repair armor in the field...

Jez
28-03-2012, 23:17
Your armour works until its broken completely so it takes 7 wipes before you lose a piece of your armour unless you replace a "cracked" or broken piece of gear before then. I'm sure they will have some npc in the game that will repair your armour strategically placed so you won't have to go long if you break it in a dungeon.

Simply Kedde
29-03-2012, 08:11
Yes, but my point is that you can have 1 shot kills, or you can just increase normal damage enough that you can't heal it unless you do dodge a good amount of it. Can you dodge this? Ok, maybe you got lucky... can you do it again 10 times?

You could even have degen that is just 1 pip stronger than what you can heal, and that could end up a really difficult challenge.

Again, why are they supposed to stop at that early a point? Only go to the point where you can't just indefinitely tank? I mean wtf. That's not a challenge worthy of any respect at all. A tough challenge is one that is extremely unforgiving, taxing on a mechanical level and requires a strategic level of knowledge beforehand and enough adaptability to survive unknowns and surprises. There's no reason to expect tough endgame fights to be ones where you're able to sustain for a long time, even if you're able to dodge. Part of a good challenge are limitations such as having to simply kill **** before it can completely wipe your team out.

raspberry jam
29-03-2012, 10:22
This is an interesting discussion...

Personally, I don't like one-hit kills. I reason that while mistakes should lead to loss, they should be fair. Simply being a random casualty isn't a mistake. Study the boss in the clip. Around 11:13+ he does a one-hit kill... Does he telegraph the 6940-damage hit? Not with any obviously visible effect. He punches forward with his front legs. The strike itself is very fast, I'd say too fast for an average player to dodge. So what is the mistake here? Not having some protection spell or something up? Well, but does reliable protection magic of that kind exist in a game supposedly without tanking? Or is the mistake simply standing in front of the boss when he is in melee range? Maybe. After all, the spider does turn toward the PC shortly before the hit. Was the he supposed to skirt around it? If he was, then it's a fair one-hit kill. If not, then I don't see how this is anything more than the normal "oh you rolled a 1 and died".

Interestingly enough, there is another guy with an axe and a shield, standing directly behind the spider when it hits. That guy does (seemingly) nothing. What is he there for? Trying to block the spider from going somewhere? Or maintaining some protection/circle (banner of whatever it's called)?

Alaris
29-03-2012, 13:57
@Kedde: my point, which you entirely missed, is that you can easily make something really challenging without using one-shot kills.

@jam: The problem is that even if the devs think it's fair, or it's mechanically fair, the problem remains that once the player gets there and sees the boss telegraph its move for the first time, he won't know what to do, and if he gets one-shotted as a results this is frustrating. Yes, no issues with that in the long run, but that's just it... one-shots are unforgiving because they don't teach.

Those who should be punished aren't those who don't know. It's those who don't learn.

The most interesting fights are when you don't initially know what you're supposed to do, but you figure it out during the fight.

raspberry jam
29-03-2012, 14:31
@jam: The problem is that even if the devs think it's fair, or it's mechanically fair, the problem remains that once the player gets there and sees the boss telegraph its move for the first time, he won't know what to do, and if he gets one-shotted as a results this is frustrating. Yes, no issues with that in the long run, but that's just it... one-shots are unforgiving because they don't teach.

Those who should be punished aren't those who don't know. It's those who don't learn.

The most interesting fights are when you don't initially know what you're supposed to do, but you figure it out during the fight.I agree, but obviously this fight isn't in an area designed for solo play. It looks like a dungeon of some sort, designed for 5-man play. Thus you should see the entire team as the "player": that one PC goes down doesn't really matter; one of the others can rez him in-place. You don't lose just because you die. The lesson is still learned (too bad he might have to pay for armor repair, though - this is one of the reasons I'm against it), as long as people have previously learned how to rez in combat. Rather, being downed by that boss represents (or should represent) that the team slipped up somehow and is now in a worse situation as a whole.

Alaris
29-03-2012, 14:39
Ah, viewing the team as a unit, gotcha. That makes sense.

Still not a fan. You can punish the team without one-shotting an individual. Like drop a massive AoE if they clump together. Or have the boss pick a member and dps it, and the team must respond by protecting that member somehow (heals, blocks).

There are better (imo) ways to invoke team play and make the fight challenging.

raspberry jam
29-03-2012, 14:49
Ah, viewing the team as a unit, gotcha. That makes sense. It's something many don't think of. It's also very hard to get right if you also get viewing the player as the basic unit right, which is what makes me a little wary when ANet declared that GW2 will be largely soloable.


Still not a fan. You can punish the team without one-shotting an individual. Like drop a massive AoE if they clump together. Or have the boss pick a member and dps it, and the team must respond by protecting that member somehow (heals, blocks).

There are better (imo) ways to invoke team play and make the fight challenging.Yes, and I hope we see those ways too. But it would be boring if every boss just blasted AoEs and did slow-targeting DPS. Especially for melee bosses of this sort, high-damage pulse attacks are appropriate... The boss simply being close to a PC might be seen as it telegraphing an attack. That makes it simple: boss is close -> protect/apply defenses/run away, or something. Or just keep circling the boss (though the spider boss seems able to turn instantly, so maybe not). The problem with one-shotting isn't that the PC goes down, but that certain characters (melee ones, to be exact) are more likely to be affected. If penalties are applied - armor repair, items needed for revival, anything like that, that could put certain classes and/or roles at a disadvantage, either economically, or when grouping for a dungeon.

Alaris
29-03-2012, 15:06
which is what makes me a little wary when ANet declared that GW2 will be largely soloable.

WoW is largely soloable too, but it includes big imbalances between roles and no good way to switch role on the fly. That content is soloable means nothing to teamwork.

There's plenty of teamwork in GW2 with position and combos and roles.


Yes, and I hope we see those ways too. But it would be boring if every boss just blasted AoEs and did slow-targeting DPS.

Agreed. Again, that spider boss could do 33% damage, and if that attack refreshes rapidly, it gives little time for the player to run out. That kind of damage is not trivial to heal for players even with a healer around, unlike in GW1 where you could heal that pretty quick.

raspberry jam
29-03-2012, 15:21
WoW is largely soloable too, but it includes big imbalances between roles and no good way to switch role on the fly. That content is soloable means nothing to teamwork.

There's plenty of teamwork in GW2 with position and combos and roles.It's possible. However, teamwork being purely an amplification of the individual's input leads to that encounters in areas designed for team play (dungeons of the kind we see in the clip) must involve stats an order of magnitude higher than what we'd see in situations designed for solo (or very-small-group, e.g. pair) play. Which means...


Agreed. Again, that spider boss could do 33% damage, and if that attack refreshes rapidly, it gives little time for the player to run out. That kind of damage is not trivial to heal for players even with a healer around, unlike in GW1 where you could heal that pretty quick.It is nontrivial for the player, but on the team scale, the boss would have done about 7% damage. Which is nearly nothing. As it is, he did 20% damage, which could be a fair setback for making a mistake. The comparison isn't perfect, since on one hand solo players keep their full capacity until the very last health point, and on the other hand groups can recover by reviving fallen members... but it's something to think about.

Jez
29-03-2012, 15:43
I feel I should remind, downed does not affect your armour. I think having ways to make a teammate go in downed mode increases tension and overall joy when the boss is beat. Leading to moments that I think TB mentioned about taking down a boss by throwing rocks at it and managing to finish it off.
Also the explorable dungeon might be turned to expecting a group of downleveled 80's are taking it on still have a challenge.

Alaris
29-03-2012, 15:49
Yeah, but we're debating numbers here.

We agree that a fair gameplay is the boss doing something that if players fail to react properly to (despite being able to), they are punished in a way that makes it difficult to recover and eventually win. Difficulty is then set by how much time players have to react, how difficult it is to do what they need to do, and how badly punished they are for failing.

A good way for bosses to deal with 5 members (as opposed to single members) is to have it attack each member more regularly... so every member needs to be awake. This can be done with spreading attacks, AoEs, or specifically targeting different players over time (randomly target swapping).

To propose a few ideas.

edit:


I feel I should remind, downed does not affect your armour. I think having ways to make a teammate go in downed mode increases tension and overall joy when the boss is beat. Leading to moments that I think TB mentioned about taking down a boss by throwing rocks at it and managing to finish it off.

Yeah, that happened to me, as described in my Death Becomes You article.

Jez
29-03-2012, 15:54
Haha sorry, I've read too much beta experiences that it made it hard to remember where it came from, your article made me think how much better pulling a victory from a near defeat in anything is an exhilarating feeling.

Alaris
29-03-2012, 16:07
Maybe it's all the jokes and movie references I made in that article :laugh:

Simply Kedde
03-04-2012, 09:58
Didn't have the time to follow up. Rasp has my back as usual :3
The point was that people shouldn't be learning anything in exploration mode dungeons when they're the utmost challenging content the game has to offer. They should've learned up to the point where they felt they were knowdlegable and skilled enough to take on that challenge. They would then know how downed state, ressurection, bossfights etc. all work as a dynamic and would then only need to adapt to the specifics of that particular dungeon.

Part of the challenge here is to change from a solo dynamic, which the game seems to allow you to play through in storymode and then switch it up with teamwork as a requirement. As rasp mentioned there's no single player. There's a team, and every part of it needs to be good, consistent and not **** up to be allowed to succeed. OHK's are punishing, but again how else do you propose to punish people for not having learned a thing or being slow to react? You mentioned Aoe, that's fine and a mechanic that's undoubtedly going to be used for most of the encounters as well.

There really aren't a whole lot of options available when you take into account that every boss needs to differ from one another. Given the only thing you can really manipulate is how much health players lose if they make a mistake and how difficult it is to avoid one such mistake, heavy damage basically has to be a garuanteed part of high-end content.


Given GW2 lends itself to offensive play in not having dedicated healing, or simply healing enough to sustain endlessly it will always have to come down to dealing damage to a target quickly enough that it can't kill you first, either through persistent DPS or by provoking mistakes from players.

Fluffball
07-04-2012, 07:04
"You might find yourself finishing the dungeon naked or on gear drops that you happened to find as loot to replaced your own broken pieces"

Found this on a massively article. Apparently you can break all your armor and be unable to repair it in the field. I guess the equivalent of DPing out.

"Explorable mode, particularly, still needs some loving attention before that sort of thing will be true for all the encounters (I'm looking at you, boss-with-undodgeable-pull-of-instant-death),"

Edit: I've been looking over a lot of GW2 videos, and there is a pretty common theme of mentioning that the dungeons need tweaked, from both reviewers and even devs saying they're absurdly hard. I think it's a safe bet the instagibs will be toned down.

sorudo
30-04-2012, 19:06
ppl talk about dodging while that's exactly the enemy of melee characters, when you dodge you don't attack nor does it do anything good for your "way to close" range.
it's just horrible to play a warrior, you ether dodge and do nothing or you don't dodge and die really fast.

Egg Shennn
30-04-2012, 21:01
The mechanic of seeing a foe telegraph his hit, giving you the window of opportunity to dodge is great in theory, but in battles with a bunch of foes (and allies) clumped together I found it impossible to have any idea when a foe was winding up. I basically had to dodge at random and hope for the best... Needless to say, I was eating dirt a lot in those situations.

1 on 1, I found the combat to be fun and rewarding as I dodged attacks because I could actually see the foe attacking...

Quintus Antonius
30-04-2012, 21:31
I had a problem with the chaotic nature of having 100 players all swarming the same objectives or bosses. It becomes hard to see the telegraphs or calculate what you need to do when there are hundreds of people zipping around. This will be reduced in the full game once people distribute into the world and across servers, so it isn't a big problem.

However, a problem will appear when there aren't 100 people to help take down some of these obscenely powerful guys. I played as a Mesmer and I was getting squished every five minutes, despite the fact that I was dodging pretty well actually. You can only dodge about two to three times before you run out of energy, and self-heals take a while to recharge. Maybe it's just a steep learning curve, I'm not sure.

I do think ANet will adjust the strength of guys a little bit. That is basically what the BWE is for after all. This is one problem I'm not too worried about, in all honesty. Either they'll fix it, or I'll adapt.

raspberry jam
01-05-2012, 00:23
ppl talk about dodging while that's exactly the enemy of melee characters, when you dodge you don't attack nor does it do anything good for your "way to close" range.
it's just horrible to play a warrior, you ether dodge and do nothing or you don't dodge and die really fast.Yeah... There was also the problem of either standing still and getting hit by AoE, or dodging and still getting hit by AoE since the area was gigantic.