View Full Version : The GW2 Mesmer: A critical reflection after BWE1
Quintus Antonius
30-04-2012, 20:52
So, those of you who know me know that I am A) a one character man, and B) a master Mesmer in GW1.
With these two things in mind, I set out in GW2 with the expectation of creating one character, a Mesmer, and remastering the art of Mesmerizing in its GW2 BWE1 incarnation. This thread is a critical reflection on that experience.
The Pros:
In Guild Wars, the Mesmer is an under-rated profession, in my opinion. It has been typecast generally into two roles--interrupted and degen-pressure. The lack of flexibility has left some Mesmer players, myself included, desiring a complexity to the Mesmer. The good news is, Guild Wars 2 largely delivers this complexity. While the Mesmer can no longer user many weapons that were usable in GW1, such as bows, and cannot use some of the new weapons in GW2 like rifles, the Mesmer is now a very pick-up-and-play-friendly class, which is easy to begin using and hard to master.
Do you want to wield a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other? Great! Your Mesmer can do that. Want to pick up a huge freaking broadsword and cause illusionary havoc? You can do that too. And each weapon has a variation to it depending on which hand (main or off-hand) you use it in--staves and two-handed swords obviously the exception.
This makes the Mesmer potentially a very dangerous class in GW2. Add to this the ability to make illusionary clones, and you have a reincarnated class that truly captures the complexity and mastery of the mind that the Mesmer seems to have always set out to be.
In this sense, the Mesmer is very much in the spirit of its GW1 counterpart, even if the form differs.
The Cons:
Despite all this, the Mesmer still suffers from a critical setback that its Guild Wars 1 counterpart also shared--squishiness. In GW1, this could be offset by the clever player, through a combination of energy management, interrupts, and proper usage of the secondary class. And if that failed, you always had monks to heal you.
Not so in GW2, so far. The monk class is completely gone, which means you are on your own for healing. The bad news here is that your self-heals are pretty weak, take forever to cast, and have a recharge time that makes them almost useless. Your squish will be your downfall in many a situation.
Also, GW2 has removed the ability, so far as I experienced, for a Mesmer to interrupt and degen-pressure. That's right, the two most crucial and stereotypical roles of the Mesmer in GW1 are completely absent in GW2. While I appalled ANet for taking a risk here and breaking the Mesmer out of the box, so to say, I can't help but think they may have gone too far. The Warrior still tanks, the Elementalist still nukes, the Ranger still uses a bow, but the Mesmer now lost two of the fundamental aspects of the class.
Sure, you can do a lot of condition pressure now, thanks to your exploding clones, but that won't help you much when you need those clones to make effective use of your heal and/but you need conditions to keep yourself from being squished. This is where degen-pressure and interruption are crucial to the Mesmer class. Also given the relative strength of the new enemies, and the cast-time of self-heals, the Mesmer absolutely has a role to play as an interrupter and a degenerator.
In GW1, I played a Domination Mesmer, and specialized in interruptions. While I certainly enjoyed cloning myself and fighting akimbo with a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other like some kind of steampunk magic-god, as enemies came at me with moves that turned me into a glowing purple pulp, I found myself wishing I could do more than simply do a dramatic deathroll away from their attacks. I'm a Mesmer, gosh darnit! My GW1-self would simply throw a Cry of Frustration into your silly face and make you beat yourself up with Backfire or Empathy! Alas, not so in GW2.
Send in the Clones:
So what about those clones I've mentioned? Honestly, they're really cool. Especially when you make use of them with a singlehanded ranged weapon like a scepter. Having five of you all spamming attacks at the enemy while they fumble about trying to find the real you is greatly satisfying!
Yet, there is also something unintuitive about the clones. You can make them explode in a variety of ways, but these often require them to be in the face of whomever you are attacking, which they rarely will be. It also ends up being a measure of last resort as you actually need those clones alive to use some of your more effective attacks and self-heals, which, as I illustrated above, often puts the Mesmer into a catch-22 of squishy death.
Oh and if your opponent is using AoE--forget about it, you might as well just back off and hope you can dodge enough to get out of the way.
This is once again where the importance of interrupts and degen comes in. Imagine eating your opponents health away while they fumble blindly through a field of your clones, only to have their attacks interrupted while you hop about from clone to clone in an illusionary dance of death by a thousand cuts. This is the Mesmer at its most mesmerizing--but is currently not possible in the Mesmer shown to us in the BWE1, and if ANet's stated plans are any indication, will never be as interrupts and degen are gone forever if they have their way.
Conclusion:
While everyone has to struggle and adapt to the changes in how classes and moves work in GW2, I can't help but feel that the Mesmer has taken the worst of it--this is not your great-great-grandfather's GW1 Mesmer. Maybe that's a good thing, but as I hope I have demonstrated in this critical reflection, a reflection on the core principles of the GW1 Mesmer might bring a lot to the table in GW2.
The Mesmer has a lot of potential to be not only a fun class but an extremely dangerous one. Yet, I have to conclude that what ANet has given us in the BWE1 is only a shadow of what the Mesmer could be--an incomplete portrait of the class at best.
Right now I'm forced to conclude that, like the illusionary clones so important to the class in GW2, the GW2 BWE1 Mesmer is just that--a hollow illusion of a class that has true potential to be great. I look forward to see what ANet does with it between now and release, and truly hope some of our feedback will be incorporated.
I look forward to your own critical reflection and commentary on the class so close to many of our hearts.
squishiness
1) Everyone is squishier in GW2 than in GW1, so without trying different professions, you may not be aware of that.
2) Mesmers rely on clones mostly to avoid damage, both in PvP and PvE. Good usage of clones makes you live longer.
interrupt and degen-pressure. That's right, the two most crucial and stereotypical roles of the Mesmer in GW1 are completely absent in GW2.
Completely absent is far-fetched imo.
3) Degen is accomplished in many ways in GW2: clones and phantasms often do damage, confusion also does damage per action your foe does. Having 3 clones hitting a foe adds quite a bit of degen, compared to your autoattack.
4) Interrupting is not so much gone as it is under-emphasized. Foes show the actions they make and you *can* interrupt them, I know I have... but it is hard to do well. There are also fewer skills that interrupt.
make you beat yourself up with Backfire or Empathy! Alas, not so in GW2.
Might not be obvious, but backfire is in, and confusion does what empathy did before. So that at least are still in.
It also ends up being a measure of last resort as you actually need those clones alive to use some of your more effective attacks and self-heals, which, as I illustrated above, often puts the Mesmer into a catch-22 of squishy death.
Yes, there is skill in that decision. Thankfully though, clones and phantasms can be re-summoned fairly quickly... there are many skills you can use to make more of them.
Oh and if your opponent is using AoE--forget about it
Yes, back off, and re-summon your clones.
Think of foes killing your clones as hex removal. And AoE as team hex removal. It was not uncommon in GW1 to have to re-apply hexes because the monk removed them. At least in GW2 you can see which hexes (sorry, illusions) were removed and how many you can re-apply.
I look forward to your own critical reflection and commentary on the class so close to many of our hearts.
I really like the new mesmer personally. It's easier to play, still hard to master, and so much more complex and visual. I think it will take a bit of time for people to really understand how the GW2 mesmer really is the best approximation of the GW1 mesmer but in GW2 terms, and that it is a pretty good approximation indeed and I think an improvement.
EnoughAlready
01-05-2012, 08:03
I hate to be 'That Guy', but the Mesmer has been ruined.
With GW2 emphasis on action the tactical play that Mesmers were ideally suited to is gone.
Without Hexes and interrupts, life and energy degen, the Mesmer has been reduced to nothing more than a purple hued dps.
The skills have kept the same names, but they don't do the same thing.
And trying to compare foes killing clones as 'like' removing hexes just makes me more sad. It is us just trying to convince ourselves with weasely words that we haven't been fobbed off really...
I hate to be 'That Guy', but the Mesmer has been ruined.
With GW2 emphasis on action the tactical play that Mesmers were ideally suited to is gone.
Without Hexes and interrupts, life and energy degen, the Mesmer has been reduced to nothing more than a purple hued dps.
The skills have kept the same names, but they don't do the same thing.
And trying to compare foes killing clones as 'like' removing hexes just makes me more sad. It is us just trying to convince ourselves with weasely words that we haven't been fobbed off really...
I actually do agree with this. I didn't hate the class, but it's not a Mesmer anymore. It's basically another damage caster now.
And trying to compare foes killing clones as 'like' removing hexes just makes me more sad. It is us just trying to convince ourselves with weasely words that we haven't been fobbed off really...
I actually do agree with this. I didn't hate the class, but it's not a Mesmer anymore. It's basically another damage caster now.
Pfft.
Meanwhile, those of us who aren't so easily distracted by shiny graphics...
Please explain to me how clones and phantasms aren't like hexes, without using words relating to visual representation.
Because to me, that is really the main difference (balance aside), that now we get to see hexes and back then we didn't.
Well, we kind of already talked about this a few times:
1- They do direct damage. Hexes required more strategy. You may not have liked that kind of gameplay, but that's what I actually liked about Mesmer. I couldn't just go around slapping hexes on everything; I had to choose which targets to hex with which spells to be effective. In GW 2, it doesn't matter what clone you use.
2- The clones do totally different things than hexes did. Instead of life degen, passive damage, interrupts, etc. the clones do direct damage, cause confusion (closest to a GW 1 hex - Empathy / Backfire), daze, or boost caster's evasion.
3- Delay on cast. This was my biggest problem when I actually played the class. Against a regular mob, there's no need to time your shatters or anything, if you even have time TO shatter the mob before its dead. They only come in handy in PvP or against boss mobs.
I know you said it's possible to use clones to blend in, but I disagree. Clones have really low health and expire when combat ends (or is it when the target dies?), so a couple of attacks will take them out and you can't have them up before engaging a target. I faced a Mesmer in WvWvW and I killed a couple of her clones. My first thought was "Wow, that actually did fool me!" But then she had to summon more and I figured out which was the real Mesmer easily and killed her. As soon as you have to summon a new one or if you summon a phantasm, you're revealed.
1- They do direct damage.
See below.
Hexes required more strategy. You may not have liked that kind of gameplay, but that's what I actually liked about Mesmer. I couldn't just go around slapping hexes on everything; I had to choose which targets to hex with which spells to be effective.
This is correct. We differ on opinion, but at least you are correct in saying that this is a way phantasms differ from hexes, there is less variety in them.
I honestly think though that such variety works better in team-based games in that you still have a team you can rely on to round up your flaws. Also, ANet did mention they wanted to reduce complexity.
Now, this to me however means that there are fewer hexes in GW2 to choose from. That's true across the board, we have a lot fewer skills in GW2 than we did in GW1. It does not imo argue whether clones and phantasms are hexes.
2- The clones do totally different things than hexes did. Instead of life degen, passive damage, interrupts, etc. the clones do direct damage, cause confusion (closest to a GW 1 hex - Empathy / Backfire), daze, or boost caster's evasion.
1) DoT is very very similar to doing small damage several times over time, no? So aside for math details, I don't see the difference with life degen.
2) Confusion is similar to empathy/backfire as you noted, and there is a backfire phantasm that does what backfire did except not just to casters.
3) We also had hexes that made you miss your attacks, which is what clones do when you get confused and hit them when you intend to hit the real mesmer instead.
4) Interrupting is still possible (and I did it too) but admittedly it requires more skill to pull off and it has been downplayed from GW1.
3- Delay on cast. This was my biggest problem when I actually played the class.
Yeah. Granted. Though I do hope that is more of a problem with early foes (who die too fast) than with the game mechanic itself.
Clones have really low health and expire when combat ends (or is it when the target dies?)
Clones and phantasms disappear when the target foe dies. Just like hexes ;)
As soon as you have to summon a new one or if you summon a phantasm, you're revealed.
That really depends on the skill of the mesmer. We were chasing one in WvW and it was a really long chase because he kept using stealth and clones and we kept hitting the wrong one because we were genuinely unable to tell where he was most of the time. I've also fought against mesmers that were good at looking like clones, so even when they summoned new ones I'd get confused.
And then I played against bad mesmers and it was super-easy to tell which was the real and which was clone. I sometimes hit the clones anyway to reduce degen, but I would never waste big attacks against clones of bad mesmers.
I'd say there's a pretty big mind game right there that was completely absent in GW1, and I can see this being an important mesmer skill in PvP.
-----
tl;dr: if they told me to rebalance GW1 so there's fewer hexes, hexes are more visual, and anyone can remove them, clones and phatasms is pretty much the bests way to implement that. imo
My point with the disappearing when the target dies is that you can't go into combat cloaked with your clones. If you're in WvWvW, for example, and you happen upon another player who sees you first, you can't really trick him into thinking one of your clones is you because once he targets you, he can keep you as a target.
Good point on stealth, though, I didn't even think of that. But stealthing isn't really something I'm interested in, nor is acting like I am an NPC. Like I said, I don't hate the class, I just don't think it's for me anymore and it's not really the same as the GW 1 Mesmer (which isn't necessarily bad).
you can't go into combat cloaked with your clones
You can't pre-hex foes before combat either. The GW1 mesmer starts off without summons or hexes. That is similar to GW2.
once he targets you, he can keep you as a target.
Not true because lots of skills that create clones also in many ways break target lock. You automatically lock back next attack, but you can easily lock onto a clone instead of the real one.
But stealthing isn't really something I'm interested in, nor is acting like I am an NPC.
Well, clones is enough for defense in PvE and PvP. I'm not into stealthing either, but in PvE at least there is no point to act like a NPC, clones work just fine because the AI is not sophisticated.
Quintus Antonius
01-05-2012, 16:07
I notice this is quickly becoming about "right" and "wrong" and is moving away from constructive feedback. Keep in mind, we won't all agree on everything here. I do not think we need a point-by-point deconstruction of why everyone else's feedback is somehow wrong.
No one is right or wrong here. We wouldn't be posting if we didn't have some concern or care for the Mesmer as a class, whether that means we think it should stay the same as it has been presented in the BWE or change in some way. That's the point of a beta, after all. Every class is going to change in some way before final release, we have a great opportunity right now to provide feedback.
Because to me, that is really the main difference (balance aside), that now we get to see hexes and back then we didn't.
This is a good point. I'm not against the clones, in fact, I like them. I just think that certain aspects of the Mesmer that were important to the class, such as the degen pressure and interrupts, have been removed entirely. A clone that interrupts with every attack, for instance, would change this. Or, a clone that doesn't do direct damage, but so long as it is alive drains the targets health or degens in as AoE would also be useful.
There is no reason this has to be clones or hexes/interrupts. I see your point that clones function as a "visual" hex now. Instead of a debuff or a dehex, you now just kill a clone. I'm okay with this, but it needs to be taken further and borrow some wisdom from GW1.
@Alaris: I'd really like to read your own systematic critical reflection of the Mesmer similar to my OP. You definitely have a different viewpoint from most who have posted here, and that is really great because we need a balanced view of the subject. The problem is that I'm having trouble constructing your particular point of view because I have only read your points in a point-counterpoint defense format. It'd be great to engage with you as you have engaged with me based on your own critical reflection. If you have already written one somewhere, can you direct me to it? Thanks for the good conversation.
I wrote 3 articles on mesmer:
Based on beta: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/blog/comments/the-mesmer-experience-tm-beta-coverage
Based on reveal: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/blog/comments/your-mesmer-has-evolved
Compared to thief: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/blog/comments/head-to-head-mesmer-vs-thief
That does not make me expert, it makes me very vocal hahah! But at least there you can see what I think of the mesmer.
I notice this is quickly becoming about "right" and "wrong"
My goal here is to help people who loved mesmer to transition to the new misunderstood mesmer. Sure, there are differences, and if those really bother then there is not much I can do. The delay in shatters for example.
But when I hear that there is no hexing or interrupts or degen, and I actually see the profession having those... I get into argument mode. But it's so that people don't dismiss what might be something they can learn to love. ;)
For me at least mesmer was not an instant love, and GW1 mesmer is still love/hate mainly because I am not very good at it. I love what the GW1 mesmer does though. I think for many, mesmer gameplay was something that grew on them as they learned the profession, rather than be instant love.
Perhaps the GW2 mesmer just needs a chance to grow on you.
Every class is going to change in some way before final release, we have a great opportunity right now to provide feedback.
And we should.
I just think that certain aspects of the Mesmer that were important to the class, such as the degen pressure and interrupts, have been removed entirely.
Help me understand. Degen is damage over time, usually small but stackable. Let's say we have 10 damage per second, as in 10dps. Does it matter that it is applied continually, or is it fine if it's 10 points every 1 second or even 3.3 points every 3 seconds? WoW does degen like the latter. GW1 might also use the latter but display the former.
One difference might be that a clone attacking can be defended against, which means that what whereas we couldn't dodge or prot against a hex in GW1, we can in GW2. If that really bothers you, then that is a valid concern. But it does not bother me.
As for interrupting, I've done it on an engineer, and mesmer can do it too. It's harder to do than before, sure. But you can interrupt by KD, by stun afaik (which 1 shatter on mesmer does) and there may be more ways perhaps even a mantra or optional skill. I don't honestly know how much you can specialize in interrupting, but I doubt it's a lot. But it's one thing to say "interrupting is gone", another to say "specializing in interrupting is limited" or "interrupting is harder to do".
shadowhand
01-05-2012, 17:47
I only played my mesmer for a few hours in the beta so I only tried a few weapons and didn't earn enough skill points to unlock a utility skill, but...
I for one agree with Alaris' point of view. The clones and illusions are exactly how I'd imagine that the hexes in GW would appear to an opponent.
The lack of variety is what it is, but I imagine that at higher levels, weapon switching will allow for more complex game play.
One thing that amused me though was how my norn mesmer had absolutely no problem with going toe to toe with the same foes as warriors and guardians. Armed with a melee weapon (sword.) I was at no distinct disadvantage.
And that is a welcome change to me.
EnoughAlready
01-05-2012, 20:37
I wrote 3 articles on mesmer:
My goal here is to help people who loved mesmer to transition to the new misunderstood mesmer. Sure, there are differences, and if those really bother then there is not much I can do.
Well, it is very generous of you to graciously bestow your superior understanding upon we mere fallible mortals, elucidating our misapprehensions and enlightening our dimwitted obtuseness.
Your remarks also underscore one of my previous comments, that 'we' are trying to convince ourselves that this Minstrel is really a Mesmer.
This whole thread is highly typical of views on the Mesmer, those that didn't like the Mesmer in GW1 prefer the Mesmer in GW2, and vice-versa.
Well, it is very generous of you to graciously bestow your superior understanding upon we mere fallible mortals, elucidating our misapprehensions and enlightening our dimwitted obtuseness.
I don't see why you are jumping on Alaris for sharing articles that quintus asked him to...
Tapatalk'd
Fluffball
02-05-2012, 00:28
I think it's entirely appropriate for a thread to become a "right" and "wrong" thread when people are saying things that are factually wrong. There ARE interrupts in the game, and mesmers can use them, they just aren't called interrupts. They do the exact same thing though, they interrupt a skill. And if I take damage every time I use a skill because I have backfire on me, is that GW1 or GW2? Both. Well, spells only in GW1.
I should know, I got completely shut down by mesmers a fair few times! They still rank as far and away the most annoying class to go against. :grin:
1) Well, it is very generous of you to graciously bestow your superior understanding upon we mere fallible mortals, elucidating our misapprehensions and enlightening our dimwitted obtuseness.
2) Your remarks also underscore one of my previous comments, that 'we' are trying to convince ourselves that this Minstrel is really a Mesmer.
3)This whole thread is highly typical of views on the Mesmer, those that didn't like the Mesmer in GW1 prefer the Mesmer in GW2, and vice-versa.
1) Well, I accept that some people will see it that way and consider it's worth it if some people get to enjoy a profession they otherwise would have dropped too early because of misjudging the profession.
2) I'm not trying to convince myself, I like the mesmer as is, it really doesn't matter if it's the GW1 mesmer or not for me. Well, in fact, I like that it's not a copy-paste because the GW1 mesmer was frustrating.
3) I loved the idea of mesmer in GW1, that you could play shutdown. I even liked the times that I did manage to play shutdown well. My problem was mainly that the profession was unforgiving, so it got frustrating at times.
I think it's entirely appropriate for a thread to become a "right" and "wrong" thread when people are saying things that are factually wrong. There ARE interrupts in the game, and mesmers can use them, they just aren't called interrupts. They do the exact same thing though, they interrupt a skill. :
Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, just because you can interrupt something doesn't mean it is an "interrupt" in the GW 1 sense. To repeat myself, I don't think the GW 2 Mesmer is bad or that anyone who likes it is wrong. I just personally like GW 1 Mesmer a lot and, as a result, dislike the GW 2 Mesmer.
Anyway, my Hammer War in gw 2 can interrupt with knockdowns and stuff, but that doesn't mean it is a function of his class, like it was for Mesmer in GW 1. That iswhat I meant.
Tapatalk'd
Fluffball
02-05-2012, 01:21
It was meant at life in general. I don't understand how you can say that a skill that's purpose is to stop a skill from being used is not an interrupt. I mean... the skills interrupt. That's what they do. There isn't really anything more to say about it, is there? I'm super confused.
Maybe you didn't use the skills that interrupt is the trouble. For example, on my thief I had a skill that would interrupt a skill and disable skill usage for one second. That is all it did. To clarify the only effect of my skill was to interrupt.
That condition is daze, which I know for a fact mesmers have, because I was interrupted by them.
Domitilde
02-05-2012, 01:27
As a die-hard elementalist, I shall continue to hate mesmers regardless of it being GW or GW2. :tough:
To try and clarify, there's a difference between an interrupt skill, and an interrupt role. In GW1 terms, your role is sort-of defined by how many skills of one type you have. You have mostly healing skills, you are a healer. You have mostly interrupt skills, you are an interrupter.
I think it's fair to say that while interrupting is in the game, it'd be harder to make an interrupt specialist even for a mesmer. Whatever GW2 build you make that specializes in interruption, it will still be a lot more balanced than the interrupt specialist of GW1. Same for healing.
I am a big fan of hybrids, which could be another reason why I like the GW2 mesmer... he's got shutdowns, but he's also more flexible in how he shutsdown and also carries damage and self-heals. Personally I like that, but players who want to play a specialist that only or mainly brings a specific role can be disappointed.
I still think the GW2 mesmer can specialize fairly well into shutdown, but at this point we're debating shades of gray based on very little play experience. We can count how many shutdown skills GW2 mesmers have to pick from or can bring on a single build, that would be a start.
To try and clarify, there's a difference between an interrupt skill, and an interrupt role. In GW1 terms, your role is sort-of defined by how many skills of one type you have. You have mostly healing skills, you are a healer. You have mostly interrupt skills, you are an interrupter.
Yes, this. Thank you.
Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, just because you can interrupt something doesn't mean it is an "interrupt" in the GW 1 sense. To repeat myself, I don't think the GW 2 Mesmer is bad or that anyone who likes it is wrong. I just personally like GW 1 Mesmer a lot and, as a result, dislike the GW 2 Mesmer.
Anyway, my Hammer War in gw 2 can interrupt with knockdowns and stuff, but that doesn't mean it is a function of his class, like it was for Mesmer in GW 1. That iswhat I meant.
Exactly. There's a feel to the playstyle of GW1 Mesmer that is not in the GW2 version. One can justify all they want based on skill descriptions and such, but GW1 Mesmer is more than just interrupt and empathy/backfire. A couple of examples:
In GW1, Rangers can also interrupt and degen in the form of conditions. Yet there is a distinct feel to the Ranger compared to the Mesmer. Many Mesmer players dislike the lack of immediacy (arrow flight time) and lack of certainty (dodged arrows) of Rangers. To me, the GW2 mesmer is no more the GW1 Mesmer as the GW1 Ranger is the GW1 Mesmer.
In GW2, guardians have heals and protection skills. But I would not consider them GW1 Monks. Just because they share similar skill effects does not make them play the same way. To me, that's the biggest difference between GW2 mesmer and GW1 Mesmer. They don't play the same.
-T
Fluffball
02-05-2012, 01:56
I still think the GW2 mesmer can specialize fairly well into shutdown, but at this point we're debating shades of gray based on very little play experience. We can count how many shutdown skills GW2 mesmers have to pick from or can bring on a single build, that would be a start.
I got curious so I peaked at the wiki. It seems mesmers are VERY interrupt and shutdown oriented compared to the 4 classes I made in BWE.
Interrupts
Trick Shot - Daze, blind and stun
Signet of Domination - Stun
Diversion - Daze
Mantra of Distraction - Daze
Desperate Daze downed skill - Daze
Apply Random Conditions (chance for interrupts and shutdowns)
Debilitating Dissipation
Chaotic Interruption
Chaos Armor
Chaos Storm
Winds of Chaos
And then a lot of traits which increase the effectiveness of shutdowns and interrupts.
I imagine I missed some stuff, since I have no experience playing a GW2 mesmer.
Also finally, I am not participating in the debate in any way other than to say it is factually false that mesmers don't have interrupts. They quite clearly do and a lot of them as well. As to what their "feel" is, I have no opinion.
If I wanted to play an interrupt mesmer, I'd probably run this build:
http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en&code=3g29g0kkkoksl1l8blkkk0abobuccchd1e5ks
Keep in mind that confusion = old empathy, daze & stun interrupt, and clones are hexes that make you miss, blind makes you miss too...
F1 - AoE damage
F2 - empathy
F3 - interrupt (instant if melee clone, with delay otherwise)
F4 - self-protect
Scepter / torch
1 - clone each 3 attacks
2 - block => clone, then blind
3 - empathy
4 - blind + AoE fire
5 - empathy-applying phantasm
Sword + pistol
1 - stack vulnerability
2 - attack + defense
3 - leap + cripple + clone
4 - damage phantasm
5 - interrupt 2 foes, blind the third
6 - self-heal
7 - active to interrupt
8 - interrupt
9 - phantasm that removes enchantments from foes
10 - Moa
Totals (number of skills that do given effects):
3 empathy
4 interrupt
3 blind (pre-interrupt)
3 clone
3 phantasm
Major traits
1 to add daze to stun (50%)
4 to add effects when interrupting (damage & fury & random condition & random boon)
1 to cloak & clone at low health
1 for faster recharge of phantasms
I got curious so I peaked at the wiki. It seems mesmers are VERY interrupt and shutdown oriented compared to the 4 classes I made in BWE.
Not picking on you, Fluffball, just using your post to expand more on the whole gameplay feel:
Trick Shot - Daze, blind and stun
Slow and possible to miss, more like GW1 Ranger interrupt than Mesmer.
Diversion - Daze
Clone/Phantom destruction dependant, thus slow and not dependable for interrupting key skills.
Desperate Daze downed skill - Daze
Downed state, so special case.
Apply Random Conditions (chance for interrupts and shutdowns)
Random, so not dependable.
Signet of Domination - Stun
Mantra of Distraction - Daze
These two are the only skills that are possibly close to the GW1 Mesmer interrupts (but see below).
Also finally, I am not participating in the debate in any way other than to say it is factually false that mesmers don't have interrupts. They quite clearly do and a lot of them as well.
Note that interrupts in GW2 is already different than interrupts in GW1. By design, they moved away from ping dependency and shutdown (http://guildwars2.mondespersistants.com/?article=171&page_art=2), which were major features of GW1 Mesmer.
He took rupts examples on the matter. Dshots, pblocks, pleaks winning matches happens often, but the lambda player is likely to miss them. Considering the rupts are entirely ping-dependant, you're left with a system quite competition-unfriendly.
Their importance in GW2's shutdown are therefore gonna be reduced and, quite obviously, is pictured by the lack of enemies cast bar (at least in the demo). Instead of that, Izzy would like to see skills like Shield Bash. In GW2, this skill is highly graphic, very easy to understand and can serve a lot of functions: speed boost, blocking and KD.
By design, they de-emphasized shutdown, the bread-and-butter of GW1 Mesmer. Whether this is good for the game is up for discussion, but GW2 mesmer is not the GW1 Mesmer.
-T
Fluffball
02-05-2012, 02:41
Thief may be more up your alley if you want total shutdown. The dazing skill I mentioned before can be used three times in a row since there is no cool down. In addition, there are a plethora of crippling and blinding skills (which I left out of the mesmer interrupt list, although blind sort of has to be considered a special interrupt.) There is a trait that gives you a chance to cripple with every pistol shot, which is huge. I mean the effect of that is, not the percentage chance.
If I was fighting pure melee, I would just perma-blind them until they were dead and not even bother moving.
Still, once you factor in the dozen or so ways that you can shut down a foe (several or most conditions, punishment for taking action, interrupting, etc.), mesmer is definitely a shutdown class.
Lol I actually almost wrote the exact same post as Teina, but didn't want to look like I was trying to prove anyone wrong or anything haha
In addition to the above, there's also the potential delay involved in using clones instead of a direct skill to interrupt, plus the uncertainty with skills like Trick Shot and Chaos Storm (ie. Will the right condition land on the right target). In that case, my warrior can potentially interrupt faster.
Again, the point isn't that Mesmers can't do anything or even that one version is better. The point is that they're different and some of us prefer the old version.
Tapatalk'd
In the build I posted above, there are skills that interrupt without using clones. In fact, out of 4 interrupts and 3 blinds, only one relies on clones (the shatter). Also, the build produces melee clones, so shattering those should interrupt right away most of the times. And 4 traits dependent on interrupting, that's a lot of traits!
But yeah, there are differences and I guess as long as you recognize the similarities, if the gameplay doesn't speak to you then you shouldn't force yourself to like it. I for one spent most of my time on ranger in GW1, and despite the similarities, ranger ranks low in GW2.
EnoughAlready
02-05-2012, 07:59
I don't see why you are jumping on Alaris for sharing articles that quintus asked him to...
Tapatalk'd
I wasn't jumping on them for that, I was jumping on the attitude that they were here 'explaining the misunderstood Mesmer', the assumption of their own correctness, and that anyone who disagrees being 'wrong', that was evidenced by the tone of their post.
1) Well, I accept that some people will see it that way and consider it's worth it if some people get to enjoy a profession they otherwise would have dropped too early because of misjudging the profession.
See also the above. Opinions contrary Alaris own are obviously misjudged, and once others understand properly, they will surely agree that Alaris own view is right, really annoyed me.
2) I'm not trying to convince myself, I like the mesmer as is, it really doesn't matter if it's the GW1 mesmer or not for me. Well, in fact, I like that it's not a copy-paste because the GW1 mesmer was frustrating.
3) I loved the idea of mesmer in GW1, that you could play shutdown. I even liked the times that I did manage to play shutdown well. My problem was mainly that the profession was unforgiving, so it got frustrating at times.
Again, back to my point that people who didn't like the GW1 Mesmer prefer the GW2.
Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, just because you can interrupt something doesn't mean it is an "interrupt" in the GW 1 sense. To repeat myself, I don't think the GW 2 Mesmer is bad or that anyone who likes it is wrong. I just personally like GW 1 Mesmer a lot and, as a result, dislike the GW 2 Mesmer.
Anyway, my Hammer War in gw 2 can interrupt with knockdowns and stuff, but that doesn't mean it is a function of his class, like it was for Mesmer in GW 1. That iswhat I meant.
Tapatalk'd
Exactly!
My own opinion is that the GW1 Mesmer was great as it was, and I bemoan the lack of it's traditional skills and role.
The whole GW1 Mesmer and GW2 Mesmer is to cumbersome, I shall henceforth refer to GW2 Mesmer as Minstrel to more readily differentiate.
I wonder if it would be possible to get a petition going for Mesmer interupts and Degen to be resurrected.
Quintus Antonius
02-05-2012, 16:34
I don't want to see the GW2 Mesmer go back to being a simple modification of a GW1 Mesmer. I'm okay with the changed nature of gameplay. My main concern is the "chance to apply a random condition". Mesmers are not random. They are calculating, masters of illusion. The Mesmer is a targeted and specialized role, which is why it was so hard to play and a relatively rare class in GW1.
Daze, similarly, is not the same as an interruption. I do agree that the GW2 Mesmer has a role to play as a condition spammer or shutdown caster, but think about the giant epic boss battles where bosses are telegraphing their attacks, dozens of players are zerg rushing, and so on. The Mesmer has a role to play here as a crowd protector by giving us direct and lasting interrupt and shutdown abilities.
Really, the skills they have already given us are probably sufficient. All that needs to happen is they need to add a more intentional interruption and degen focus rather than random conditions or conditions that are more appropriate for a physical attacker than an illusionary one.
I knew I was in trouble when one of my backstories was running away to join the circus...lol
I was jumping on the attitude that they were here 'explaining the misunderstood Mesmer', the assumption of their own correctness
Yes, I can see how that would be irritating to someone who was wrong and refused to accept his wrongness.
Differences of opinion are fine, but you said a lot of things that are just factually wrong, and that needs to be corrected if you want to debate. I said it nice. But after a while re-explaining the same things, I don't care to sugarcoat it for you.
Again, back to my point that people who didn't like the GW1 Mesmer prefer the GW2.
We should have a poll. I'd be curious to know how widespread that is, actually.
I wonder if it would be possible to get a petition going for Mesmer interupts and Degen to be resurrected.
*sigh* at least say interrupt role and degen role in your petition. I'm still waiting for some explanation as to how the current minstrel isn't doing degen via his songs.
Daze, similarly, is not the same as an interruption.
From GW2 wiki: "Daze is an effect caused by some skills which interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time."
All that needs to happen is they need to add a more intentional interruption and degen focus
I'd like your comments on the build I posted above.
EnoughAlready
02-05-2012, 17:57
Yes Yes Yes to all of the below. And especial thanks to Teina for the point by point.
Not enough precision, not enough control, not enough Mesmer. To random, to long a delay.
And much of what has been classified in this thread as interupt, strictly speaking, isn't. Daze is Daze, it interrupts as a consequence, an artefact of its action, not as its purpose.
Exactly. There's a feel to the playstyle of GW1 Mesmer that is not in the GW2 version. One can justify all they want based on skill descriptions and such, but GW1 Mesmer is more than just interrupt and empathy/backfire. A couple of examples:
In GW1, Rangers can also interrupt and degen in the form of conditions. Yet there is a distinct feel to the Ranger compared to the Mesmer. Many Mesmer players dislike the lack of immediacy (arrow flight time) and lack of certainty (dodged arrows) of Rangers. To me, the GW2 mesmer is no more the GW1 Mesmer as the GW1 Ranger is the GW1 Mesmer.
In GW2, guardians have heals and protection skills. But I would not consider them GW1 Monks. Just because they share similar skill effects does not make them play the same way. To me, that's the biggest difference between GW2 mesmer and GW1 Mesmer. They don't play the same.
-T
Not picking on you, Fluffball, just using your post to expand more on the whole gameplay feel:
Slow and possible to miss, more like GW1 Ranger interrupt than Mesmer.
Clone/Phantom destruction dependant, thus slow and not dependable for interrupting key skills.
Downed state, so special case.
Random, so not dependable.
These two are the only skills that are possibly close to the GW1 Mesmer interrupts (but see below).
Note that interrupts in GW2 is already different than interrupts in GW1. By design, they moved away from ping dependency and shutdown (http://guildwars2.mondespersistants.com/?article=171&page_art=2), which were major features of GW1 Mesmer.
By design, they de-emphasized shutdown, the bread-and-butter of GW1 Mesmer. Whether this is good for the game is up for discussion, but GW2 mesmer is not the GW1 Mesmer.
-T
Lol I actually almost wrote the exact same post as Teina, but didn't want to look like I was trying to prove anyone wrong or anything haha
In addition to the above, there's also the potential delay involved in using clones instead of a direct skill to interrupt, plus the uncertainty with skills like Trick Shot and Chaos Storm (ie. Will the right condition land on the right target). In that case, my warrior can potentially interrupt faster.
Again, the point isn't that Mesmers can't do anything or even that one version is better. The point is that they're different and some of us prefer the old version.
Tapatalk'd
I don't want to see the GW2 Mesmer go back to being a simple modification of a GW1 Mesmer. I'm okay with the changed nature of gameplay. My main concern is the "chance to apply a random condition". Mesmers are not random. They are calculating, masters of illusion. The Mesmer is a targeted and specialized role, which is why it was so hard to play and a relatively rare class in GW1.
Daze, similarly, is not the same as an interruption. I do agree that the GW2 Mesmer has a role to play as a condition spammer or shutdown caster, but think about the giant epic boss battles where bosses are telegraphing their attacks, dozens of players are zerg rushing, and so on. The Mesmer has a role to play here as a crowd protector by giving us direct and lasting interrupt and shutdown abilities.
Really, the skills they have already given us are probably sufficient. All that needs to happen is they need to add a more intentional interruption and degen focus rather than random conditions or conditions that are more appropriate for a physical attacker than an illusionary one.
I knew I was in trouble when one of my backstories was running away to join the circus...lol
EnoughAlready
02-05-2012, 18:01
Yes, I can see how that would be irritating to someone who was wrong and refused to accept his wrongness.
*sigh* I know I shouldn't feed the troll... so I'll just thank you for underscoring my earlier point about your attitude and manner.
OK you two, enough of the tangent. You've both made your points. Now stick to topic please.
-T
And much of what has been classified in this thread as interupt, strictly speaking, isn't. Daze is Daze, it interrupts as a consequence, an artefact of its action, not as its purpose.
I think we should let daze decide what it's purpose was.
By design, they moved away from ping dependency and shutdown (http://guildwars2.mondespersistants.com/?article=171&page_art=2), which were major features of GW1 Mesmer.
Agreed, and I consider this a good thing personally, though I would not have been to upset if it stayed as one way to play it.
There are some skills that interrupt without clones or being downed though, I didn't get to try them... would those be viable for the ping-based interrupt mesmer?
By design, they de-emphasized shutdown, the bread-and-butter of GW1 Mesmer. Whether this is good for the game is up for discussion, but GW2 mesmer is not the GW1 Mesmer.
I'd be curious to know your comments on my interrupt-focused mesmer build in this thread.
While the gameplay is different from a GW1 mesmer in that this one does other things than just interrupt, how would you judge it in terms of shutdown? I think it could be very effective as shutdown.
I don't want to see the GW2 Mesmer go back to being a simple modification of a GW1 Mesmer. I'm okay with the changed nature of gameplay. My main concern is the "chance to apply a random condition". Mesmers are not random. They are calculating, masters of illusion. The Mesmer is a targeted and specialized role, which is why it was so hard to play and a relatively rare class in GW1.
Not anymore lol Guess all our descendants got lazy over the last 200 years.
There are some skills that interrupt without clones or being downed though, I didn't get to try them... would those be viable for the ping-based interrupt mesmer?
I'd be curious to know your comments on my interrupt-focused mesmer build in this thread.
While the gameplay is different from a GW1 mesmer in that this one does other things than just interrupt, how would you judge it in terms of shutdown? I think it could be very effective as shutdown.
Mesmers in GW 1 did things other than shutdown. I almost never played interrupt or shutdown. I played more of a punishment role.
I wasn't going to comment on the build, but since you asked twice... :)
1- Trick Shot is unreliable as an interrupt. For one, it can miss. Secondly, it needs to travel to your target, so it's not instant. Finally, only the first shot has the chance to interrupt who you want: There's no way to really plan who gets hit with the third shot. EDIT: Also, aren't there a bunch of skills that block projectiles in GW 2?
2- Diversion requires the use of clones and it dazes their target, not yours.
3- Power Lock is the only classic interrupt on this build, but you can only use it once. If you miss, it's down until you can channel your mantra again. I didn't get to use any mantras this beta, but from what I know of them, you have to prepare them before combat.
So, yeah, your build can be used for interrupts, but it seems like you'd be crippling yourself in terms of being useful to your group. You can't even switch your weapon set without losing the only skill you have that can be used to interrupt your target more than once (Trick Shot).
Also, where's the fourth interrupt?
Mesmers in GW 1 did things other than shutdown. I almost never played interrupt or shutdown. I played more of a punishment role.
Well, it's quite satisfying to hit an interrupt on an important spell.
1- Trick Shot is unreliable as an interrupt. For one, it can miss. Secondly, it needs to travel to your target, so it's not instant. Finally, only the first shot has the chance to interrupt who you want: There's no way to really plan who gets hit with the third shot.
1) Correct. As I do most of my interrupts on a ranger, that doesn't bother me though.
2) Also correct, see above.
3) Not likely that I know what my non-targets are doing. I see it as collateral interrupting similar to Cry of Frustration.
2- Diversion requires the use of clones and it dazes their target, not yours.
3- Illusionary Mage is also entirely too random to be reliable. And, as Quintus pointed out, GW 1 Mesmers were not random.
True. So it works well in 1vs1 or against bosses, not so much in large fights.
4- Power Lock is the only classic interrupt on this build, but you can only use it once. If you miss, it's down until you can channel your mantra again. I didn't get to use any mantras this beta, but from what I know of them, you have to prepare them before combat.
You can recharge them during combat, but the cast time is long. Also, there's a trait so you can use it twice before needing to recharge it.
5- Confusing Images looks okay, but I don't know how it works (cast time, when confusion is applied).
Dunno either. I assume it's a fairly standard interrupt though.
So, yeah, your build can be used for interrupts, but it seems like you'd be crippling yourself in terms of being useful to your group. You can't even switch your weapon set without losing the only skill you have that can be used to interrupt your target more than once.
I'm not sure I'd be crippling the group, provided I was decent at interrupting and foes actually needed interrupting. Admittedly, this is speculative... if only we had a similar game where we can judge if interrupting is useful to the team (hummmm).
I managed to interrupt a meteor shower during the press beta, I think that was a skill well used.
As for switching weapons, I'll regularly swap weapons to use up my long-recharge skills, provided my weapon is good for the range.
While the gameplay is different from a GW1 mesmer in that this one does other things than just interrupt, how would you judge it in terms of shutdown? I think it could be very effective as shutdown.
But I think gameplay difference is the heart of Quintus' OP, so we can't turn a blind eye to it in this discussion. RDarken pretty much covered many of the points already. I didn't unlock the utility skills on your build, so I can't comment on those. But otherwise, as already been said, the build is too imprecise and slow (need to build up clones first, for example, to shatter). I would also add that a lot of the effects have very short duration compared to either recharge or time it takes to build up clones, or both (ex.: Cry of Frustration).
Now, from a general, "let's forget there was ever a GW1 Mesmer" perspective, I would personally use Torch with Sword. IMO Torch's The Prestige synergizes better with the melee sword. In fact that was what I was running in BWE: Scepter+Pistol and Sword+Torch.
-T
Edit:
1) Correct. As I do most of my interrupts on a ranger, that doesn't bother me though.
I think that sums up the issue. Many GW1 Mesmer players don't want to play a Ranger. Otherwise, they would have played a Ranger. :grin:
But I think gameplay difference is the heart of Quintus' OP, so we can't turn a blind eye to it in this discussion.
Far from it my intention. A lot of my rebuttals have to do with pointing out that some things people claim are gone (to use their words) are actually still in the game but changed.
Whenever people point out valid changes like delays I totally acknowledge that as a valid criticism. Btw, I think I was one of the first to point out the delay in interrupting with clones (thanks to press beta; see the mesmer experience article). Some people don't like the idea of clones and phantasms, so despite it being something that crept up in mesmer suggestions before the reveal, I think it's fair some people don't like it. If they understand those are essentially hexes, that's fine.
The question about shutdown wasn't to ignore gameplay differences, but rather to also discuss another important aspect: role. If a GW2 mesmer can be played as shutdown or interrupt or whatever, but the gameplay is different, then that's something. If the role is absent (it does not appear to be) or simply not useful (hopefully that is not the case), then that's a different story altogether.
the build is too imprecise and slow (...) a lot of the effects have very short duration compared to either recharge or time it takes to build up clones, or both
That seems to be true across the board, by that I mean across professions. Conditions and shutdowns tend to have shorter durations, heals tend to be lower, and damage tends to be less deadly (but harder to recover from).
Scepter+Pistol and Sword+Torch.
Ah, that does provide a better synergy. I put them that way because it seemed to make more sense from a stylistic perspective. Mesmers are supposed to be masters of style, no?
I think that sums up the issue. Many GW1 Mesmer players don't want to play a Ranger. Otherwise, they would have played a Ranger. :grin;
Well, I did enjoy the BHA ranger, so maybe my bias is showing.
EnoughAlready
02-05-2012, 20:11
OK you two, enough of the tangent. You've both made your points. Now stick to topic please.
-T
Yes Matron :grin:
Far from it my intention. A lot of my rebuttals have to do with pointing out that some things people claim are gone (to use their words) are actually still in the game but changed.
And this is the crux. If you enter the grand national one year with a thoroughbred race hoarse, and then the next year with a donkey, you can't claim that it's the same thing because it's basically the same shape and you've called it the same name as before. Or take your wife's engagement ring to be repaired and replace all the diamonds with zirconia, good luck convincing her that it might have changed, but it's basically the same really.
The changes, as have been delineated over and again, have altered the functionality to such an extent that it isn't the same thing.
The changes, as have been delineated over and again, have altered the functionality to such an extent that it isn't the same thing.
This is less a fact and more an opinion.
Or rather, it really depends on what your threshold is for classifying something as same or different. And there's no point saying it's gone if it's still there but changed.
In all the games I played, RPG or not, I can't think of any profession class character or thing that comes closer to the GW1 mesmer than the GW2 mesmer in role function and gameplay. GW1 mesmers were hard to describe as well because shutdown roles are fairly rare in games even in RPGs. Debuff is more common, but shutdown? And mesmers have a variety of ways to shutdown, e.g. e-denial, interrupt, punish, skill failure... I feel GW1 mesmers were truly unique and defining of GW as a game that innovates. GW2 mesmers is the only thing that comes close to it.
By comparison, the guardian is pretty hard to describe as "it's this or that profession or class" or even "it's a combination of this and that" because even paladins are quite different from guardians in that the former rely on healing allies (or being frontline) and the latter on applying position-based prots (and being frontline). And it's very different from prot monks in that you're hard-shelled and mostly frontline.
So if you want to play prot monk in GW2, I don't know what to recommend (guardian? water ele?). If you want to play guardian in GW1, I also don't know what to recommend (dervish? prot monk? paragon?). But if you like mesmer in either game, then mesmer is the closest match in the other by far.
Much like engineer is the closest match to ritualist, you know, aside for the look and lore, and assassin is the closest match to thief, aside for the look and lore and balance.
Just because the GW 2 Mesmer comes closest to GW 1 Mesmer doesn't mean it's the same thing...
They're different. They can do some of the same things, but the class, like the games themselves, is very different. You've got like four hardcore Mesmers telling you it plays a lot different - trust us lol
You've got like four hardcore Mesmers telling you it plays a lot different - trust us lol
Yes, it's quite common for experts to adopt very strict definitions that the rest of us find too narrow. That's what I was arguing above, when I tried to go for a more "objective" criteria, one based on what you'd imagine a statistical procedure like cluster analysis would return based on a "profession space" dataset.
I trust that you perceive the mesmer difference to be huge, in your mesmer-centric world, but reality might be different to alt-a-holics with extensive experience with all (most) professions. Mesmer might not have been my main, but I played it a lot too. Actually, mesmer was my main for a while.
I work in the domain of perception. I actually specialize on how reality differs from how we perceive it ;)
Quintus Antonius
02-05-2012, 23:52
Just as an interesting tidbit, seven years ago, back when you could not change secondary classes and reconfigurating your stat points was limited, I played a Me/R specializing in bow and Mesmer interrupts. So, I do not speak idly on the matter when it comes to the topic of the new Mesmer seeming similar to a Ranger. Indeed, the new Mesmer's role is most similar to something like a R/Rt Spirit Master Ranger build from GW1. You lay your spirits, keep them alive, and use them to spam conditions and spread damage. That is essentially what the new Mesmer does, and this is why so many of us "hardcore Mesmers", to borrow from RDarken, are upset at the role. Mesmer was all I played in PvE, but I am a ranked PvPer as well, and in that capacity I was very skilled with the Ritualist, which I hope gives me some expertise to talk about all of this.
We aren't necessarily bemoaning the change in form so much as the change in style. If this new GW2 Mesmer were a spiritual successor to the Mesmer in the same way that many of the other classes are faithfully spiritual successors of their GW1 counterparts, I think I, speaking only for myself, would be more satisfied.
The Mesmer is not a Ranger, the Mesmer is, to speak somewhat facetiously, an elegant troll. You trolololo the enemy with interrupts and degens. This is possible to a certain degree with clones, but is not yet up to the same level of excellence of form and style as the GW1 Mesmer was. There is a reason the Mesmer was one of the least nerfed classes of GW1, and that speaks to why it needs to be spiritually similar in GW2.
@Alaris: To respond to your request to critique your build presented earlier in this thread, I'm sorry to say that I cannot right now since I am unable to actually play the game. I would be happy to give it a shot during the next BWE, but until then, I would only be able to give you theory, and not practice. The difference between theory and practice is exactly what is causing the tension in this thread after all, so the concern is not unfounded.
I do not speak idly on the matter when it comes to the topic of the new Mesmer seeming similar to a Ranger.
I do not doubt you. Mesmer and interrupt ranger are similar in that capacity and the differences are well known.
Indeed, the new Mesmer's role is most similar to something like a R/Rt Spirit Master Ranger build from GW1. You lay your spirits, keep them alive, and use them to spam conditions and spread damage.
Well, I am quite a summon aficionado, and I don't see it. It may be because I focus so much on summons that I see small differences and think they are large, much like I accused you of seeing small mesmer differences and making them to be large. I don't know.
To me, rit spirits are immobile, often support-oriented, and if damage-oriented then not in a punishing way. They also don't die if the target die, and can be pre-summoned. They also can tank to some degree, and do not look like you. I think this makes them quite different from clones and phantasms.
in that capacity I was very skilled with the Ritualist, which I hope gives me some expertise to talk about all of this.
I don't want expertise to be a requirement for conversation here, that would be elitist. I'm just having fun discussing GW theory with fellow gamers.
We aren't necessarily bemoaning the change in form so much as the change in style. If this new GW2 Mesmer were a spiritual successor to the Mesmer in the same way that many of the other classes are faithfully spiritual successors of their GW1 counterparts, I think I, speaking only for myself, would be more satisfied.
In my opinion, it is. But that does depend on what you focus on when you define what spiritual successor need... see below.
You trolololo the enemy with interrupts and degens.
Lack of finesse. That is a valid complaint of the GW2 mesmer as far as I can tell, I did not get a good sense of finesse. Thought that may be lack of experience.
This is possible to a certain degree with clones, but is not yet up to the same level of excellence of form and style as the GW1 Mesmer was.
I agree. See above.
There is a reason the Mesmer was one of the least nerfed classes of GW1, and that speaks to why it needs to be spiritually similar in GW2.
I think it was least nerfed because people either (1) didn't abuse it, or (2) it just wasn't OP to begin with. It got buffed lately but imo more to increase its popularity and flexibility than because it needed it.
until then, I would only be able to give you theory, and not practice. The difference between theory and practice is exactly what is causing the tension in this thread after all, so the concern is not unfounded.
This is all I ask. At least until practice is possible, then I'd be curious to know your updated opinion.
I'd try it myself in the next BWE, but interrupting was never my strong point.
realHarken
03-05-2012, 00:46
mes was/is the hardest profession in GW1 and as far as Im concerned it should stay that way in GW2....it should frustrate, annoy,require a boatload of patience but ultimately deliver the most rewarding mmo experience of any class period.Not claiming to be an expert but my first ever char was a mes in 2006 and a well played mes is by far and away the most fun to play.Needless to say I jumped straight in with a mes last weekend and I, for one, think its tremendous.Needs a lot of thought and ultimately thats the gig; you need to be a thinker to play a mes so if u dont like thinking then dont play one!!I appreciate the comments above I think they all have some degree of validity but you have to work really really hard with a mes and from what ive seen thus far GW2 takes that to a whole new level and thats fine by me it just makes the whole experience more fun.Also I just perfected cold fusion in my kitchen(again)if anyone cares.
Fluffball
03-05-2012, 01:16
I think it's worth pointing out that not one single person in this thread has a goddam clue what we're talking about and has basically zero experience playing both GW2 and the mesmer.
I probably made it further than most people in the BWE in that I wound up doing a level 30 dungeon. The evolution of my thief was dramatic, from a level one pure damage deer-stabber to a team-supporting character capable of interrupting, protting and applying a bevvy of conditions. The game play changed quite a lot.
That was a riff on realHarken's comment of thinking the mesmer seems very complex, which there is certainly no denying. We haven't scratched the surface, and that's pretty cool.
Quintus Antonius
03-05-2012, 01:18
Well, I am quite a summon aficionado, and I don't see it. It may be because I focus so much on summons that I see small differences and think they are large, much like I accused you of seeing small mesmer differences and making them to be large. I don't know.
To me, rit spirits are immobile, often support-oriented, and if damage-oriented then not in a punishing way. They also don't die if the target die, and can be pre-summoned. They also can tank to some degree, and do not look like you. I think this makes them quite different from clones and phantasms.
A valid critique. The two are not the same, and I did not mean to say there is a 1:1 translation. However, you have to recognize the similarities. A good Spirit Spammer did not stay stationary, but move around placing spirits, just as a GW2 Mesmer must move constantly while managing the movement of the clones as to both maximize effect and minimize detection. There may be a different in ontology between the two, but I'd argue the telos is quite similar.
I don't want expertise to be a requirement for conversation here, that would be elitist. I'm just having fun discussing GW theory with fellow gamers.
Is it elitist to want your surgeon/car mechanic/contractor/etc to be qualified to work in their field? Of course not. While not a requirement for good conversation, expertise is a crucial part of the feedback process that will make the new Mesmer the best it can be. Elitism would be thinking only those who share my expertise have a right to speak, or supposing ANet must make the class to suit solely my concerns. But expertise should be something that adds weight to an argument that seeks to base itself on fact and experience. The expertise of the Mesmers here is exactly why this kind of critical reflection is needed after all.
This is all I ask. At least until practice is possible, then I'd be curious to know your updated opinion.
I'd try it myself in the next BWE, but interrupting was never my strong point.
I can't give you an informed opinion so I would prefer to give no opinion. I hope you understand. Even if the Mesmer is not overhauled like some of us would like, by the next BWE, all those skills will have been changed in some way, so I see very little point in speculating.
That was a riff on realHarken's comment of thinking the mesmer seems very complex, which there is certainly no denying. We haven't scratched the surface, and that's pretty cool.
Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
I did not mean to say there is a 1:1 translation. However, you have to recognize the similarities. A good Spirit Spammer did not stay stationary, but move around placing spirits
I did not take it as 1:1 similarity either, but imo the similarities are few and the differences are many.
Is it elitist to want your surgeon/car mechanic/contractor/etc to be qualified to work in their field? Of course not.
Perhaps then we should leave it to ANet? They're the ones who made many great games, and are making a really good one again!
We're just playing it!
Seriously though, an opinion is valid regardless as an opinion, but nothing more. If you then want to dabble in facts, then expertise helps only insofar as knowing the facts does. Whether you got the facts via experience or understanding is less relevant...
so I see very little point in speculating.
Other than for speculation's sake? Theorycrafting? That is a minigame in itself actually, I quite enjoy it and seeing how close I can get to reality.
Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
It would go from top 4 to bottom 3 for me.
Valid. I'd actually be disappointed if the scrapped the Mesmer we saw and just gave us the same old GW1 Mesmer. I hope no one here is advocating for that!
I don't think GW 1 Mesmer would even work. Interrupts maybe, but hexes and stuff wouldn't. Normal mobs die way too fast to even bother with DoTs; that's probably why stuff like Bleeding has such a short duration. It would be fine in PvP or against boss mobs, but in everyday PvE, Mesmers would end up contributing so little.
Fluffball
03-05-2012, 13:17
I don't think GW 1 Mesmer would even work. Interrupts maybe, but hexes and stuff wouldn't. Normal mobs die way too fast to even bother with DoTs; that's probably why stuff like Bleeding has such a short duration. It would be fine in PvP or against boss mobs, but in everyday PvE, Mesmers would end up contributing so little.
Keep in mind the mobs you say die too quickly are in the tutorial area.
When I think what'd they have to do to the GW1 mesmer to make it work in GW2, I end up making a lot of the same decisions as the ANet team did. I would have kept casting bars and pure interrupts (not for me, but for those who enjoy that) but otherwise it would have been very similar. Maybe a bit less random, but I think there is a balance reason for that.
Of course, I lack the genius to make hexes have a physical appearance.
Thalanor Thornhale
03-05-2012, 16:18
I almost exclusively played a mesmer during this BWE as well although the time I had for the BWE was rather limited.
As far as I see, the Mesmer is one of the hardest professions to master. Along with the Engineer, the complexity of this class is quite high.
The original point of the thread starter is well taken: The class has changed a lot. Mechanics considered to be key mechanics are either gone now or significantly changed. This mostly includes things like filling the role of an exclusive interrupter.
What needs to be kept in mind is that these changes were quite deliberate. As pointed out earlier, pure interruption roles were significantly weakened because this play style can be quite reactionary. Arenanet wanted to make the game play more active and strategic.
I have been watching the official forums a bit and notice quite a vocal group that wants to immediately change basic mechanisms of the mesmer. I sense a similar sentiment here.
In general, I am hesitant to suggest major changes on design principles of the class that were quite deliberate without extensively testing these features. By extensive, I don't mean just 60 hours or so for the previous BWE. I mean a couple of weeks worth. I am comfortable to guestimate that the majority of people got far less than 60 hours of experience on the mesmer. When the profession is so complex, prematurely demanding "improvements" by fundamentally changing basic mechanics of the profession may lead to a "dumbing" down of the profession. I remember from the early days of GW1, many demands were also made for that Mesmer back then. If Arenanet had listened to all those suggestions early on, the Mesmer would not have been the profession it is known for now.
That said there are some real issues with this profession that I personally think need to be addressed. These include:
- Illusion AI: It appears that the AI sometimes gets stuck. Illusions with some frequency get stuck, don't move or appear with significant delay. On the latter point, I wonder if this has to do with overall lag on the server and how this could be addressed. Problems with the Illusion AIs seems to be a subset of problems with Pet AI in general. I think Anet is aware and working on it. But since this is beta, the player community should point out issues like this.
- All shatter skills appear the same at this point. Because things other than damage (like confusion and daze) are certainly very subtle (and possibly not strong enough), the shatter skills that don't deal immediate damage may feel very invisible or ineffective compared to Mind Wrack. I am sure that some of the shatter skills need tuning, and definitely need unique animations.
I wonder if the points I mention above are also points the community thinks need tuning. I wonder whether if the above issues were addressed, some of the concerns about the Mesmer would be addressed.
I have been watching the official forums a bit and notice quite a vocal group that wants to immediately change basic mechanisms of the mesmer. I sense a similar sentiment here.
Nah, I think it just seems like that because Alaris refused to admit that Mesmers are drastically different in GW 2, so we had to beat it into him :)
Mechanics considered to be key mechanics are either gone now or significantly changed. (...) What needs to be kept in mind is that these changes were quite deliberate. (...) All shatter skills appear the same at this point.
1) About mechanics being gone, see below.
2) Yes, thank you!
3) Shatters 1 & (2-3) & 4 seem very different to me in function, if not in visuals. The issue I have is that 2 & 3 seem to overlap more, I'd actually have to wiki to know how they differ. They're shutdown both of them...
After wiki'ing: 1 is straight AoE damage, 2 is AoE punishment, 3 is interrupt & shutdown, 4 is self-protection
Nah, I think it just seems like that because Alaris refused to admit that Mesmers are drastically different in GW 2, so we had to beat it into him :)
I may be in a downed mode, but I am not dead ;)
But seriously, I don't deny the changes, what I do argue against is when people say dumb stuff like you can't interrupt or hexes and degen are gone, which is patently not true: (1) there are many ways you can interrupt, (2) clones and phantasms are visual hexes, and some conditions do what hexes used to do, and (3) I've yet to hear how degen =/= clones and phantasms doing regular damage over time.
They did however change the emphasis on roles and specializations, much like they reworked healers, and that I have been pretty good at acknowledging when people made those comments, no?
EnoughAlready
03-05-2012, 18:55
Nah, I think it just seems like that because Alaris refused to admit that Mesmers are drastically different in GW 2, so we had to beat it into him :)
What on earth gave you the impression they actually paid the blindest bit of attention?
After all, they may not play Mesmer in GW1, and confessed to playing thief in GW2, but they're still correcting us. *sigh*
My opinion of the of the Minstrel, having played it exclusively in GW2 and being a Mesmer in GW1, remains in accord with RDarken, Teina and Quintus.
A donkey is not a thoroughbred stallion. Alaris can champion being a donkey all they like. It may have 4 legs, it might be fitted with horse shoes, you may even be able to point at it and say 'hey, it even has a prettier pattern', and from a distance it may appear similar, but those with any equine experience will know the difference.
I think a different perspective is just what the forum needs to boost analysis and discussion. I think many of us have a better understanding of how GW1 mesmer and GW2 mesmer are alike and differ, me included, as a consequence of this. As long as said different perspective tries to be respectful and factual when possible, I don't see a problem. Imagine the scenario reversed, that you were alone defending your point, would you give up on your convictions just because you're outnumbered?
I can be persistent and arrogant at times, but I try to be polite and respectful. I don't always succeed, but hey, we're all humans here.
I am not plural, despite my greatness. Also, I am more zebra than donkey. ;)
Thalanor Thornhale
03-05-2012, 20:06
3) Shatters 1 & (2-3) & 4 seem very different to me in function, if not in visuals.
That's what I mean. The visuals are the same or very similar for 3/4 shatter skills. It would help if the appearance or visuals were more distinct for each shatter.
Do other people need to know what shatter you used? I mean, when playing mesmer I would know which shatter I used so having different visuals doesn't seem important to me.
Thalanor Thornhale
03-05-2012, 20:20
I imagine that it may help other players tell what happened. Remember that GW2 is all about projecting what happened into the world and not into the UI.
More so it will give beginning Mesmer players a clue that these skills are different. Reason: I have clones. I use Mind Wrack to shatter them. I see damage. If I used another shatter skill, the animation looks the same, the tiny confusion button is not readily apparent if you don't know what you are looking for. You don't feel much damage occuring. It looks like nothing is really happening compared to mind wreck. So in other words, it may help make the profession with the shatter skills a bit more understandable and approachable while not completely ripping out the guts of the profession as designed. Every other skill is projected differently. Why not also the shatter skills?
Agreed, but imo not important enough to justify spending too much resources on it.
The way they shatter is pretty cool as is, I also don't want to end up with bad-looking or uninteresting shatters. Maybe the difference could be in the way the pieces fly once it breaks?
Thalanor Thornhale
03-05-2012, 20:40
Ultimately, it's up to the developers. I made these suggestions on the official forums as well. Let's leave it to the developers to determine how many resources want to spend on this issue. Since the game is in beta, it's all about refinement. There is a chance that these suggestions may make it. Let's wait and see.
Quintus Antonius
03-05-2012, 22:55
What needs to be kept in mind is that these changes were quite deliberate. As pointed out earlier, pure interruption roles were significantly weakened because this play style can be quite reactionary. Arenanet wanted to make the game play more active and strategic.
Ultimately, it's up to the developers. I made these suggestions on the official forums as well. Let's leave it to the developers to determine how many resources want to spend on this issue. Since the game is in beta, it's all about refinement. There is a chance that these suggestions may make it. Let's wait and see.
Keep in mind that they have hundreds of Alpha Testers who are just like you and me whose feedback is being used to change the class. There is of course deliberateness to the changes made, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every piece fits perfectly together as presented--thus Alpha Testers and on-going Alpha Testing, thus a Beta Weekend. ANet cares about what we think. We shouldn't just take what they hand us and treat it as scripture, because that's not even what they want us to do.
(Disclaimer: I'm not an alpha tester and know nothing about what they are or aren't doing, but I'm making a safe assumption that part of what they're doing is testing the classes and how they fit into the game world.)
Thalanor Thornhale
03-05-2012, 23:47
Keep in mind that they have hundreds of Alpha Testers who are just like you and me whose feedback is being used to change the class. There is of course deliberateness to the changes made, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every piece fits perfectly together as presented--thus Alpha Testers and on-going Alpha Testing, thus a Beta Weekend. ANet cares about what we think. We shouldn't just take what they hand us and treat it as scripture, because that's not even what they want us to do.
(Disclaimer: I'm not an alpha tester and know nothing about what they are or aren't doing, but I'm making a safe assumption that part of what they're doing is testing the classes and how they fit into the game world.)
Alpha testers probably have more time with the profession compared to one BWE testers. But your point is well taken. Beta tests are there for refinement and killing of bugs. And so in this context, constructive feedback is valuable. The art on the dev side is to sift through all this information and incorporate the right idea in the right way. Feedback from those vocal enough to post most of the time is well-meaning, but may not always have positive effects on the game as a whole. This is not to say that your arguments are wrong/right. It's just a general comment/observation.
In general (not picking on you in particular), I actually welcome the well-articulated discussion that has started here in the Mesmer forum. It breathes in life. And discussion can lead to discovery of new ideas. Just remember to keep things civil and non-passive aggressive ('cause that usually leads to aggression :-)). What I have always liked about this community is the ability to civilly discuss divergent viewpoints. That's our strong-point. Let's keep this up!
Beren Iluthiel
06-05-2012, 20:44
I'm sorry if this post will turn out to be useless... I played mesmer during BWE, just because it was a class I never thought I'd play in GW2.
Speaking of GW, I never played mesmer for a single second.
Some of you would say
"What's this post about then? You know nothing of "our" class"
It's true, but I wanted to say that I really enjoyed Mesmer class a lot in GW2. A lot means I'm seriously thinking of rolling a mesmer as my main.
I don't know nothing about Mesmer in GW, except those nasty npc who killed me several times during my vanquish. Having this... uhm... naif mind allowed me to enjoy the new mesmer a lot. It's not an easy class, not even a bit, but once you start to get used to it it's reallt enjoyable.
While I'm not debating about any of your previous posts because I lack the knowledge to do it, I simply invite everyone of you "old" mesmer to think about new class as the first time you played the mesmer in GW, with everything yet to be discovered.
What I'd like to ask you is... if I would play mesmer as support in group, do you think the class has enough possibilities to do it?
Thanks and sorry again if I went OT.
This is GWO: Most of us couldn't stay on topic if you paid us :)
In any event, I think the crux of our conversation last week was that the GW 2 Mesmer is Mesmer for people who didn't play it in GW 1. You aren't exactly disproving that hehe
What do you mean by "as support"? If you mean contribute to a group, then yeah, of course. But if you're looking to buff / protect your allies, you might want to look at another profession. While the GW 2 Mesmer is capable of doing so, a lot of the skills seem to apply random boons, so it wouldn't be all that reliable. Possible, just not super effective. That said, there's definitely an advantage to having Chaos Storm (which buffs allies and debuffs enemies simultaneously) and someone who can stealth your whole team to break agro or whatever.
@Beren:
I think there's two sides to support. There's the usual support where you buff allies, heal them, and protect them, and then there's mesmers that make sure foes can't do their job. Negating the effectiveness of foes is, for lack of better category, a control and support role.
When you interrupt a skill, or make a foe miss, or make a foe hit a clone instead of an ally, you have effectively protected your party from a potentially nasty attack.
Quintus Antonius
08-05-2012, 12:50
Yes, Alaris, you have. And that is legitimate. But it is also the reason we need to have more control over the current randomness of it. Blinding a spellcaster doesn't do much good.
We also need to remember Beren's point. ANet has to find a balance between the spirit of the complexity of the GW1 Mesmer and accessibility and "newness" in order to encourage new players. I do not think it would be fair to lean more towards either side of that equation.
Blinding a spellcaster doesn't do much good. (...)
ANet has to find a balance between the spirit of the complexity of the GW1 Mesmer and accessibility and "newness" in order to encourage new players. I do not think it would be fair to lean more towards either side of that equation.
Afaik, blinding a caster will make his next spell attack miss (e.g. fireball etc). So, bad example, but I understand what you mean. A better example would be snaring a ranged (in ranged vs ranged combat) which would not be that useful especially if said ranged is not kiting, or applying blind to a foe who is in blocking stance...
As for Beren's point, I agree. The goal though is to do both, create a profession that is easy to get into, and hard to master. I think that's what they did in GW2 that they failed in GW1. But admittedly, I don't have enough experience with mesmer (either) to be a good judge of that, it's more impression and theorycrafting.
Shanaeri Rynale
08-05-2012, 16:58
The main issue I have with the GW2 mesmer, is that the clones are not nearly convincing enough in PvP(they dont have the little butterfly symbol symbol) and in PvE the AI is not fooled and tends to target the mes right away.
Neither is the clone AI good enough to dodge, kite or behave like a real player would. The shatter mechanism is ok, but I found it to be a little ineffectual at the lower levels. I'm not sure if I missed it, but we could do with 'pet controls' for the clones to make them do what we want them to, rather than what the AI says (I'd love to have a skill called 'send in the clones' ;) )
While the GW2 mesmer is a great idea and concept, just like it's GW1 counterpart in the early years I think it needs more work to be truely effective.
In contrast, the thief and ele I tried seemed to be a lot more effective at both support and DPS roles. The mesmer buffs didnt seem to last long enough to be really effectve.
Note I only really played mes until about lvl 15, so how it plays in PvE later on remains to be seen.
The main issue I have with the GW2 mesmer, is that the clones are not nearly convincing enough in PvP(they dont have the little butterfly symbol symbol) and in PvE the AI is not fooled and tends to target the mes right away.
Neither is the clone AI good enough to dodge, kite or behave like a real player would. The shatter mechanism is ok, but I found it to be a little ineffectual at the lower levels. I'm not sure if I missed it, but we could do with 'pet controls' for the clones to make them do what we want them to, rather than what the AI says (I'd love to have a skill called 'send in the clones' ;) )
While the GW2 mesmer is a great idea and concept, just like it's GW1 counterpart in the early years I think it needs more work to be truely effective.
In contrast, the thief and ele I tried seemed to be a lot more effective at both support and DPS roles. The mesmer buffs didnt seem to last long enough to be really effectve.
Note I only really played mes until about lvl 15, so how it plays in PvE later on remains to be seen.
This is indeed the case and imho one of the biggest flaws in the pve mesmerplay which I enjoyed quite a lot during BWE1
although I did not experienced levels beyond level 15.
I really hope they can fix this problem.
The main issue I have with the GW2 mesmer, is that the clones are not nearly convincing enough in PvP(they dont have the little butterfly symbol symbol) and in PvE the AI is not fooled and tends to target the mes right away.
That was not my experience.
In PvP, you need to behave like a clone to make them convincing. Using stealth too helps. Another option is to build so that you don't use clones for defensive purposes, but for dot and mass shattering.
In PvE, I found that foes did target my clones often enough, as often as you'd think if the AI was confused and picked randomly. As clones don't last long, I had to supply more to replace those lost.
Well, I said this before, but I found it incredibly easy to figure out which is which in PvP. Granted, the game is new so people haven't perfected it yet and I'm more observant than most, but even if you get tricked by a clone, they have such low HP that you're going to figure it out. Then when you see the dude who makes a new clone, keep him targeted. If he doesn't have stealth, if you just keep him targeted, you're golden.
If you waste an attack with a long cooldown on a clone, then it has served its purpose. Remember that it is pretty easy to make new ones.
Also, I found sometimes that it was a bad idea to only focus on the real mesmer and ignore clones. Unattended clones do add pressure, and they can be shattered on you as well.
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