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Fluffball
19-05-2012, 05:42
Fluffball

A lot of the difficulty has to do with your profession and your chosen weapon. For anyone looking for a "hammerdin" type of easy cheese, I recommend a dual pistols thief. They're basically unkillable. I got to level 3 of the survivor title (IIRC, I really didn't know what achievements were till the last minutes of the stress test) before I slipped.

1) You're ranged, so you have plenty of time to react or flee.
2) There is an attribute to make critical hits with pistols cause cripple, so you're effectively immune to melee.
3) You have a skill called "Smoke Screen" that blocks 100% of ranged attacks for a period of time (as well as blinding in a few different ways.)
4) The normal stuff that other classes I assume have, such as non-activated healing (i.e. mending from GW1 but better), blinds, dazes, etc.

Alaris
Mind you, thief has lower survivability outside of skills, and the range on pistols is less than longbow staff and rifle afaik, which means that you have to play well to earn your survival ability. I died tons on thief, granted I did not play a lot and I am not too good with stealthy types usually, but...

I had been really curious what other heavy-thief players had experienced. I think PvP is a whole other story so did any of you play a lot of thief in PvE and what were your thoughts? I semi feel pistols are cheesey, but in a group I think they lose their appeal as you do very little damage compared to other weapons or professions. And that's where the balance lies I think.

Alaris
19-05-2012, 06:30
For the record, I did some PvP with the thief, but it's one of few professions I didn't play that much. It was not going to be in my top 5, and it didn't make my top 6. Not that I think there's anything wrong with it, just not my type. But the point is that I my comments are more based on theory than gameplay experience.

I assume that thieves are balanced, which means they can probably dish out damage and stay alive as well as anyone else. The difference here is that thieves have to stay at mid-range or do hits & run at melee to be effective, and because they are fragile they need to rely on skill usage for survival more. This makes them potentially a difficult profession to play well. The initiative system means they can do hit & run attacks, using stealth in-between bursts of attacking for example.

But like I said, I didn't get an in-game feel for what worked well with that profession, I'd be curious what people who actually played it thought about it.

Erring Ryft
19-05-2012, 16:14
I didn't get to play a ton of thief either, but I felt like dual pistols were a good weapon switch, but not all that awesome to use all the time forever. I only PvE'd with it, but the damage seemed low enough to not make it a big deal (maybe that changes with higher level equipment). Felt nothing like hammerdin levels of boring.


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Fluffball
20-05-2012, 08:00
I guess my question was does the invincibility in PvE make it feel like wurm faming. I think I've basically made the decision to not use these other than to get r4 survivor and in events.

To be fair, I didn't try much i the way or ranged characters, so this may be the norm.

Erring Ryft
20-05-2012, 13:29
I kinda wonder if it'll really always have that amount of survivability - let's talk hammerdin for a sec. If the build didn't change after I left D2, the idea was to run into the middle of everything and hammer spam as a PBAOE until everything fell over. Not much could kill you since your armor was good and your damage was usually unavoidable by the monsters.

I don't think pistols are going to let you do that against larger groups. 1v1 it might get a little cheesy unless the opposition has condition removal, but I don't think you'll be able to hold out indefinitely against larger numbers, which seem to occur with a decent amount of frequency in PvE and WvW.


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Alaris
20-05-2012, 18:40
Anything can become cheesy in 1vs1 PvE if you play well though, especially with weapon swap.

Erring Ryft
20-05-2012, 19:23
Anything can become cheesy in 1vs1 PvE if you play well though, especially with weapon swap.

Gadzooks! The point is found!


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sorudo
20-05-2012, 20:57
i dislike pistols in general within a fantasy game so i didn't use that, i did use the sword/dagger combo and it worked great.
you can jump in, take down the enemy and when you're surrounded you can just shadowstep back.
i didn't got to try the bow tho so i really need to try that next BWE, up until now the thief feels pretty weak but it's a typical tactic prof.

Alaris
20-05-2012, 22:58
up until now the thief feels pretty weak but it's a typical tactic prof.

Agreed. I think the thief has a good potential at being as strong as anyone else in the right hands. Just using the optional skills more and playing well the dodge/shutdown game should really make a difference. I have never been too good at that in RPGs, I am decent at it in action games though (the difference being in physically dodging vs using skills that shutdown your foe).

Ringsgold
21-05-2012, 19:09
Pistols may make you invincible in PvE but they're boring imo. Shortbow gives you enough mobility to get out of anything, along with nice ranged AoE damage and cripple. I like to have dual daggers or sword/dagger for my other set to finish off ranged enemies with backstab and heartseeker.

Alaris
21-05-2012, 20:43
Am I right in saying pistols are meant for 1vs1 and lack any sort of useful AoE? I might be wrong...

sorudo
21-05-2012, 21:05
GW2 is full of 1V1 encounters so it's still pretty useful, i still think a bow looks a whole lot better.

Alaris
21-05-2012, 22:40
I like bows better too. But I'd settle for rifle for guardian long-range. Staff is weird.

Anyway, back to topic.

Of course 1vs1 is great, but it seems odd to complain that pistols is great at 1vs1 when that is exactly what it was designed for. If it was bad at 1vs1 then nobody would use them. But lacking AoE, that means we have good reasons to use bow instead in WvW or PvE.

Erring Ryft
21-05-2012, 23:22
Am I right in saying pistols are meant for 1vs1 and lack any sort of useful AoE? I might be wrong...

You're right, afaik. I'm looking forward to trying them again in the next BWE...and the more I think about it, the happier I am that weapons like this made it into the game. I just find myself getting a bit tired of the same typical "fantasy" weapons we always see.


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Alaris
22-05-2012, 02:29
I'm glad for the option, though I would like it better if professions had more choice of weapons, e.g. rangers using pistols and rifles too, guardian using bows, etc.

Fluffball
22-05-2012, 02:57
I wouldn't saw pistols are for 1v1. The main hand pistol skills are conditions, which can be useful on a single target or a group. The two offhand skills are both support, an interrupt and an AoE blind/field. The dual skill is the single target skill Volley (although if you fire it to a group you'll likely hit more than one target unintentionally.)

Alaris
22-05-2012, 03:02
The AoE blind certainly counts (but not as AoE damage), but the other ones appear to be single-target shots.

When I think of fighting groups, I specifically think of attacks that hit multiple foes like AoE's or sword swinging on an arc, so that you don't spread your damage rather you hit every foe with the full amount. Hitting two foes with unload splits the damage between them, so it loses efficiency against groups.

Erring Ryft
22-05-2012, 04:30
I'm glad for the option, though I would like it better if professions had more choice of weapons, e.g. rangers using pistols and rifles too, guardian using bows, etc.

I think there's a fairly good mix of range to melee on most classes - I'm actually quite happy with the Ranger setup, but I think it's just because I have a hard to shake preconceived notion of them as all naturey that doesn't fit well with gunpowder. I'd love to see a longbow on a Guardian, though.

Thief seems to have very few weapon switches compared to some other classes, though. Is steal supposed to make up for that, or is initiative just that hard to balance?


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Alaris
22-05-2012, 04:59
I think the thief's weapon set is poor too, but I think they do get some additional skills because of (1) stealing, (2) dual weapons changes the skill #3, (3) there are skills for when you are stealthed. Still, I think it's not so much the thief's initiative that is hard to balance, but rather the fact that as a thief you should concentrate more on moving around than on attacking.

harniq
22-05-2012, 11:12
It depends a lot on the kind of skills you already have.
Thief: stealth, steal, dual skills
Necro: Death shroud, minion skills
Engi: kits and tool belt => doesn't even have weapon swap and hardly any weapons to choose from
Ele: attunements, very few weapons available => no weapon swap either

Compare to:
Warrior: lots of weapons but no ways to get more skills
Guardian, ranger, mesmer: many weapons but summons/pets give "some" extra skills


I think the "skill burden" is about the same for most professions, disregarding racial morphs. You just access them through different ways. To me it's important that every profession is fully capable for:
- support, control and damage
- pvp and pve
- aoe and single target
That seems to be the case currently.

I'm going to play engi at release, between pistol, shield and rifle it's easy to say he's got not many options. However he gets many kits. So do other classes with "few" weapons.

Alaris
22-05-2012, 12:08
Yes, there is some balance, but warrior has burst skills remember? As I remember, even counting all that warrior has lots of weapons skills, engineer and elementalist have lots of weapon skills after taking into consideration the attunement and kits, and thief still has less variety. Mind you, that's fine imo because theif should be spending more time learning to move and shutdown, and less time learning to use weapon bars.

Seems to be that regardless of how many weapon skills each profession have, they all have pretty good options for dps AoE and single, for control, for shutdown, for support, etc. The main lacks I can see is that professions tend to either focus on support (guardian, ele, engineer) or shutdown (thief, mesmer). Or I might be wrong on that one.

Fluffball
22-05-2012, 13:12
The AoE blind certainly counts (but not as AoE damage), but the other ones appear to be single-target shots.

When I think of fighting groups, I specifically think of attacks that hit multiple foes like AoE's or sword swinging on an arc, so that you don't spread your damage rather you hit every foe with the full amount. Hitting two foes with unload splits the damage between them, so it loses efficiency against groups.

Dual pistols play almost exactly like GW1 rangers. So while not specifically AoE, it is definitely not a single target specific weapon set. A bunch of damage boosting skills that hit a single target is for 1v1, but spreading conditions is single target best employed against a group. Sure you can cripple the same guy over and over, but it's better used against a group.

It combos best with something like an ele. The dual pistol thief applies cripple and vulnerability to a group and the ele drops a meteor shower on them.

harniq
22-05-2012, 13:49
Yes, there is some balance, but warrior has burst skills remember? As I remember, even counting all that warrior has lots of weapons skills, engineer and elementalist have lots of weapon skills after taking into consideration the attunement and kits, and thief still has less variety. Mind you, that's fine imo because theif should be spending more time learning to move and shutdown, and less time learning to use weapon bars.

Seems to be that regardless of how many weapon skills each profession have, they all have pretty good options for dps AoE and single, for control, for shutdown, for support, etc. The main lacks I can see is that professions tend to either focus on support (guardian, ele, engineer) or shutdown (thief, mesmer). Or I might be wrong on that one.

You're missing the point. It's not about how many skills you have available at any time, but rather how many you've got available right now. ele: 5*4 (attunements on weapon) + 5 (heal/util/elite) making 25
necro: 5*2 (swap) + 5 (shroud) + 5 (heal/util/elite) + 0-8 (depending on lich/summons) making around 25 depending on choices
thief: 5*2 (weapon swap, 3rd skill optional) + 5 (heal/util/elite) + 4 (stealth) + 3*8 (steals from professon, each has about 3 options) making a potential 43 skills available at any time in pvp, in pve much higher. Even with only 1 opponent type, this makes for 22 skills. I wouldn't call this worse or less flexible than any other profession.
If there's functionality missing between those 22++ skills, you're most likely doing something wrong.

Alaris
22-05-2012, 15:02
You're missing the point. It's not about how many skills you have available at any time, but rather how many you've got available right now.

Nah, I calculated both. Total number of skills informs of customizability, number available now informs of on-the-fly flexibility. I was specifically talking about thief having fewer weapons combos to learn, so he'd learn his weapons faster leaving him the mental capacity to focus more on learning positioning. So I was referring to the learning curve, assuming you go around learning all or most of your weapons.


If there's functionality missing between those 22++ skills, you're most likely doing something wrong.

Wait, how did you get 4 stealth? I get 15 (weapon swap + utility) + 1 steal + 3 I guess for the skills stolen, so 19 maybe 20 if you have some way to cloak to get the stealth skill.

Anyway, plenty of ways to play your profession within combat, that much we do agree.

sorudo
22-05-2012, 18:05
you're forgetting downed/drowned....

Alaris
22-05-2012, 18:11
Dual pistols play almost exactly like GW1 rangers.

You make a good point about spreading condition, though I would not classify that as AoE, more like single-target with quickly switching. Case in point, I don't think you can switch target during an unload, so it's less like barrage/volley and more accidental if you hit several targets. And the conditions in GW2 are short-lived compared to GW1, so it might not be as good a strategy in GW2 as it was in GW1.

Compared to thief bow which has (1) a shot that hits several targets, (2) an AoE explosion, (3) an AoE poison, (4) an AoE blind, and (5) a single-target cripple.

This is why I'd expect pistols to be better against single-target than multiple targets, and bows to be better against multiple targets than single-targets. They seem to be designed for those specific functions, although you could be fairly decent using pistols against groups, or bows against single targets.


you're forgetting downed/drowned....

I'm not. If you're relying on those skills to stay alive, you're doing it wrong.

Raww
22-05-2012, 18:35
i played a thief all of beta, i used the duel pistols as my second set for awhile but i found i got bored and was wishing i has an some sort of AoE. i was hating on the idea of using a short bow as a thief rogue class but man i LOVE the short bow. its so powerful and amazing in any scenario from my experiences. theres lots of fun to be had with the short bow, i forget the names of the moves but the one with the explosion and if you hit the button again it explodes in the air doing way more dmg then it woulve if you just let it go. for WvWvW the shortbow is a must. also in pve i used the short bow because as melee you tend to get ****ed pretty bad on boss fights and stuff, and you have way more utility then duel pistols.
for my structured pvp i used double dagger for both weap sets.

there are times i feel as a thief im a little underpowered. for instance our heartseeker move stops us and then jumps at the target, i noticed a lot of the times players would keep running away from me and id miss. i feel that it shouldnt stop you from moving freely. thats the only thing that bugs me about the thief, that and the fact i cant spam attacks otherwise i use up my initiative. wish there was an option to turn off attack q's. in the end i know itll be something i have to get used to, the first BWE it took me about a day to really stop spamming buttons like i would in swtor/WoW(both games have an option to turn off auto q'ing), i had to keep reminding myself if i spam attacks i lose all my ini and im ****ed, once i got that down it wasnt so bad but i still had my button mashing moments and id do heartseeker like 4 times with no one near me lol

Alaris
22-05-2012, 18:41
Wait.

You use two dual dagger sets in PvP? But but... there's no cooldowns on the thief afaik so there's really no reason to do that!

Clever trick for other professions if it works though. Swap to refresh your skills. I might try it.

Raww
22-05-2012, 18:48
well i got signets from the vendor in the pvp area that give you a 30% increase of dmg on next attack and like 100% crit when you swap weapon sets and the dmg one stacks i believe. so i run around swapping weaps to get huge crits

Raww
22-05-2012, 18:49
the build i run people are crtting for 14-15k on the backstab, im still learning the spec seeing how i picked it up over the stress test day.

Alaris
22-05-2012, 19:01
I am always impressed by people who find ways to take advantage of stuff like that.

Raww
22-05-2012, 19:06
yeah i had no idea what signets were or that we could get them til i tried this out lol heres a really good vid showing the playstyle of the spec. im not sure why he has such little hp, he says the spec hes running makes it that way but i ran the same spec and had about 4k more HP then him.. also i switched my gear out for the straight dmg set rather then the condition set they start you off with

http://youtu.be/N2lwExXbfIs

Ringsgold
22-05-2012, 21:10
yeah that build is kinda fun, but I like to use a shortbow instead of the huge crits so I can kite away from everything while AoEing for 1.5-2k per hit :D

Problem is with 11k hp you get killed if someone gets a gap closer and CC off on you, but usually you can dodge those in time.

Dual daggers are my secondary set with the crit+dmg sigils so I can shadowstep in and finish ppl off with heartseeker when possible. I read somewhere that the sword backstab is less powerful than dagger, otherwise I might try sword/dagger as secondary set for the extra CC (the bleed from death blossom is useless with a crit spec)

If the guy in the video was using his elite more he'd be much more effective btw, turning ppl to stone is really strong :)

sorudo
22-05-2012, 21:22
I'm not. If you're relying on those skills to stay alive, you're doing it wrong.
i never said you should rely on them but it simple needs to be added to the skill count regardless, no matter how you flip or turn it it's still a part of your character.

Alaris
22-05-2012, 21:50
It's +8 for everyone then. Not very useful, especially given that you need to get yourself downed to use those skills!

Fluffball
23-05-2012, 00:50
Case in point, I don't think you can switch target during an unload, so it's less like barrage/volley and more accidental if you hit several targets.

Actually you can do it on purpose by targeting someone in the back of a group and moving around. It's a way to quickly spread cripple, blind and poison. In theory anyway; I did it on accident for the most part because I haven't really encountered large groups yet.

Raww
23-05-2012, 00:54
yeah that build is kinda fun, but I like to use a shortbow instead of the huge crits so I can kite away from everything while AoEing for 1.5-2k per hit :D

Problem is with 11k hp you get killed if someone gets a gap closer and CC off on you, but usually you can dodge those in time.

Dual daggers are my secondary set with the crit+dmg sigils so I can shadowstep in and finish ppl off with heartseeker when possible. I read somewhere that the sword backstab is less powerful than dagger, otherwise I might try sword/dagger as secondary set for the extra CC (the bleed from death blossom is useless with a crit spec)

If the guy in the video was using his elite more he'd be much more effective btw, turning ppl to stone is really strong :)

yeah im not sure why he has such little HP, i was around 19k hp with same build

Alaris
23-05-2012, 01:26
@Fluffball: Yeah, you "can" do it on purpose... I'm just not sure that spreading conditions will be that much more effective than stacking them on a single target and killing it faster. Spreading conditions worked well in GW1, but they might have changed the balance now especially with conditions stacking now whereas they used not to stack at all.

@Raww: Same build? Or build with similar theorycraft? Might be that he spent literally everything on damage and crits and kept nothing for life?

Raww
23-05-2012, 01:39
i copied the build he used from the site, so yeah thats why i dont get how he has such little hp

Fluffball
23-05-2012, 02:56
If I "can" cripple multiple charging melee and I am ranged, I "will" do so.

Alaris
23-05-2012, 03:01
Do cripples stack?

Anyway, I was more referring to other conditions that do stack. Crippling several melee foes is of course a good idea.

Fluffball
23-05-2012, 13:11
Do cripples stack?

Anyway, I was more referring to other conditions that do stack. Crippling several melee foes is of course a good idea.

Blind does not stack which is another condition thieves excel at spamming. Vulnerability stacks, but only to a certain point. You generally remove all the armor after like 3 applications if I remember correctly. Don't quote me on that number though. Bleeding and poison do stack, although their (thief skill) durations are quite short and the bleeding comes from the auto attack.

Alaris
23-05-2012, 16:59
Does cheese stack.

I want more cheese on my thief.

sorudo
23-05-2012, 19:28
i copied the build he used from the site, so yeah thats why i dont get how he has such little hp

lower level?

Raww
23-05-2012, 19:39
lvl doesnt matter in structured pvp

sorudo
23-05-2012, 20:50
runes.....insignia's.....etc........didn't even see the mention PvP but i could've missed it.

Ringsgold
23-05-2012, 23:06
i copied the build he used from the site, so yeah thats why i dont get how he has such little hp

Did you get the same runes/insignias and especially the same amulet? gear setup makes a huge difference.

Raww
24-05-2012, 15:35
only runes i changed were on my weaps so i could get the weapon swap, other then that i picked up all the single target dps gear

Fluffball
11-06-2012, 13:14
They removed the cripple trait from pistols, so this thread is not moot.

But either I got a lot better at the game or the made melee easier. I basically never left dual daggers this BWE.

Erring Ryft
12-06-2012, 00:14
Heartseeker feels awkward to me, like it's working in reverse.


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Raww
12-06-2012, 02:27
yes heartseeker is also one thing thats bothering me because it always stops you and then jumps, people are able to dodge it so quick or just move out of range lol its frustrating

Erring Ryft
12-06-2012, 03:05
The damage increase at lower health just seemed odd to me when paired with a leap - I mean, if something's at lower health, odds are I've already caught it and stabbed it several times. Why finish with a 300-range leap attack when you're right next to the guy? If they switched it around to be a bit more like say, Unsuspecting Strike (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unsuspecting_Strike), I could kinda see it. Not that it's a terrible skill; it just feels backwards...

Fluffball
12-06-2012, 13:08
It is a little weird, but I think you can look at it as having multiple functions as well. You can use it to close distance OR to finish. Or both, like if they try to run.

Stealing is a good way to tele in and start the fight as well.

Alaris
12-06-2012, 14:37
I was going to say that it would be a good skill to follow up an evasive move that moves you away from the foe, but I don't see that happening as it's the 3rd skill of a chain. Afaik a chain resets if you use other skills, no?

Fluffball
12-06-2012, 22:35
You can use it whenever you want.

Basically, I wouldn't want to give up the functionality of the skill, or really of any of the 5(7) dagger skills. They all do something important.

Erring Ryft
13-06-2012, 01:33
It is a little weird, but I think you can look at it as having multiple functions as well. You can use it to close distance OR to finish. Or both, like if they try to run.

Stealing is a good way to tele in and start the fight as well.

I suppose they might try to run at low health...haven't met anything smart enough to do so in PvE or WvW yet. Is it a combo finisher too? Might have something else decent then. Still preferred sword/dagger and short bow thus far.


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Alaris
13-06-2012, 02:40
I often end up running with low health in WvW. That skill was made just for me.

Synyster Spirit
30-06-2012, 18:40
I don't find the stuff Thieves do to be any more cheesy than say Warriors CC+Thousand Blades combo.

Fluffball
01-07-2012, 07:01
I don't find the stuff Thieves do to be any more cheesy than say Warriors CC+Thousand Blades combo.

I think my feeling at the start of this thread was that ranged it cheesey. Which it is. But during super hard stuff like dungeons its a good alternative to melee. Otherwise I can't see myself enjoying a ranged only class.

GhostPVP
15-07-2012, 01:16
I don't have first hand experience (yet), but it seems in my opinion that thieves fill the same role as rogues in other games (in terms of how they play). Obviously with GW2, all professions have increased survivability as a result of the removal of the holy trinity, although the general census I've found on youtube and other forums is that most rogues revolve around a glass cannon style build. A lot of PvP videos I've seen have had rogues dual wielding daggers and dishing out 14k crits on their opening hit. Obviously in PvE, a more balanced build would be desirable to survive taking damage, but in PvP (in my opinion) it's better to be able to dish out huge burst damage aimed at weaker or unsuspecting players.

Ringsgold
23-07-2012, 17:55
Did anyone try underwater combat with thief? I found the skills to be insanely strong, it easily let me kill two lvl8 enemies while I was lvl6, just spamming skills 3 and 5 (that's the location on the skillbar, not my keybinds, I don't remember the skill names)

nkuvu
23-07-2012, 18:45
I did briefly try underwater combat with my thief. Both with a harpoon and a spear gun. I liked both.

The harpoon skill 3 was (if I remember correctly) nine tail strike. Block any incoming attacks, and if you are attacked retaliate with a flurry of your own attacks. If you're not attacked, gain initiative. The spear gun was... I forget the name... poisoned Run Away! Shoot at your foe, dodging backward at the same time and leaving a poison trail.

No idea what skill 5 was. But I do remember that skill 2 on the spear gun was shout four times. I was killing a lot of stuff with that -- shoot four times, and if they get close, poison and run away.

Raww
23-07-2012, 21:44
yeah i did a lot of underwater combat in WvWvW and pve zones. it was fun the harpoon gun was mad fun, didnt try the spear but at release i will!

BUT on another note, i found the thief to be VERY good this beta. i feel they did a good job with certain things even though the attacks that root us still annoy me lol. i was using the set bonus that makes it so at 10% hp you cloak which was real chill
here was the spec i was running

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/abstracts3o/Guild%20Wars%202%20Beta%20Weekend%202-3/gw013.jpg

Ringsgold
26-07-2012, 03:21
I didn't try WvW last beta, did they give you a full set of trait points for WvW?