I looked at IW and my conclusion was based on the same logic as Herthbuls - it is a fragile/vunerable approach. That doesn't mean it can't work but it must be vunerable to skilled players. Obviously Arcane Echo makes it harder to counter and sometimes that is enough. However I wouldn't plan on being a world beater using a known, counterable, approach.
My first character, Ele/Mesmer, is approaching lvl 20 now and I'm wondering if some skill I've been using in pve will suffer form the same sort of problems as IW.
- Aura of Restoration is an incredible heal spell but a target for dispelling. Is it worth using in pvp?
With 20 seconds recharge time I often recast AoR after it is dispelled in pve.
- I have a W/El who intends to use Conjure Flames - how useful is this in pvp?
Conjure Flames has a 60sec recast time so it won't be recast any time to soon but then again it is just an add on not a central element.
Don't worry, be happy.
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Thread: IW: Me/W vs. Me/??
19-06-2005, 01:17 #31
19-06-2005, 08:38 #32
I wouldn't really worry about AoR in PvP primarily because the health bonus it provides isn't enough to save you from a focused attack, so basically it's a wasted slot unless you're an Ele/Nec that runs Blood Ritual with AoR. But Conjure Flame on the other hand, it may fall to single enchant strips. Most W/E's in PvP are Aftershock builds, so naturally they carry hammers. If it's a W/E that's wielding a sword/axe and has a yellow arrow, that's probably a giveaway he's carrying a Conjure. As for whether it's worth it or not... depends really. If I knew a W/E relied on Conjure Flame to set off a Mark of Rodgort, then chances are I'd probably remove it. If it was just a seperate damage buff, maybe not, depends on the circumstances.
I'd say overall though, you have to look at all parts of an enchantment to determine whether or not it's going to be removed. Look at Mark of Protection. Great effect, so that's one reason it should be removed. Short duration, long recharge, another reason. Some enchantments like Guardian, not worth the trouble. Some like Ether Renewal, Elemental Attunement, IW, etc... definitely worth it. Some enchants are crutches, so removing them really can shut down a build. An example is alot of people rely on the Ele enchantments to replenish their energy. Taking those out shuts down their energy regen system.
19-06-2005, 14:24 #33
i dislike this logic: 'ive destroyed every IW user ive ever played against. therefore IW = rubbish.'
IW is a really weird skill and it does require you build around its true. ive used a number of IW based builds in tombs and ive only had it stripped once - and that was against some no name pick up group. it was a messy fight too. ive met a number of pretty good teams along the way in tombs that just skipped by it completely. bottom line is, on a W/Me who the hell is going to waste a slow expensive enchant strip, or lingering curse on me when theres a monk behind me with life bond and a f**k tonne of other enchants on him keeping not only the monk alive but everyone else on his team?
IW and flurry also deals consistant damage with very little micromanagement. whilst its true you can outdamage it with a similarly specced axe type build, the truth of the matter is axe based warriors require alot of micromanagement. you will be watching adrenaline meters going up and down and trying to figure out on the fly how you can do as few normal hits as possible given the skills you have ready and plan slightly ahead for the ones that are about to be ready. its somewhat exhaustive and you have to be pretty zoned in to play an axe warrior well and keep chaining attack skills together.
ive played with both and using IW i can keep my eyes focused more easily on not just my skill bar. i find target calling easier on my IW builds. i generally have more of an awareness of the bigger battle. with my axe builds the micromanagement that is required tends to have me focused on my skill bar. its easier to lose the bigger picture when you that zoned in and have that many things to do.
additionally pure axe warriors are pretty single minded and if you want to consistantly deal high damage, theres little room for much else. it makes you predictable. as 90% of warriors are in tombs. one of my W/Me builds is i would say more mesmer than warrior. so whats the point of playing a warrior primary you ask? well ive played both mesmer and warrior primaries and i can get away with alot more as a warrior primary simply because im such a low priority target. apart from the fact i dont have a secondary with a reusable rez, have an energy pool and energy regen that is too small and too low to be considered a threat - i can get away with quite alot. as a mesmer primary im automatically a higher priority target and i find i cant get away with half as much.
typically running IW based builds on a warrior primary is difficult because of the energy limitations. you can get around this to some extent with energy taps and energy drains and it allows I-Weapon warriors to fulfill another role as an energy drainer whilst also sustaining your own energy resources. its interesting because i never get interrupted energy tapping as a warrior. i barely ever get targetted. i can energy burn, energy tap, drain whatever and people dont expect it because they look for cookie cutter builds from cookie cutter players.
alot of the people who dismiss IW as not viable for tombs need to think outside of the box a little bit more. it takes a bit of work but its usable and with a little bit of lateral thinking you can really throw a little confusion into the battle.
19-06-2005, 19:36 #34Originally Posted by Fire Childe
Wow, you've done all my work for me.
1. We never said IW was "rubbish" because we killed all the IW users. Please read! :howdy:
2. You admit Axe warriors do more damage than IW, but you don't want to do it because its hard? :lol:
3. Why would you bother with IW as a Warrior primary, since you can't boost your damage, and you'd do more (under your own admission) without it?
4. And yeah, I don't know what to say about you and your team using newb bond.
20-06-2005, 01:55 #35
hmmm. ill try to put it politely but you are an ***. and an arrogant one at that.
i never said i didnt want to play axe warriors because its 'hard.' the irony of your 'please read!' quip is ridiculous since you make that statement and its obvious on the next line you havent read my comments properly.
i said that playing axe warriors requires alot more micromanagement than playing an I-Weaponer. and it does. to play a good axe thats throwing out a consistant level of damage requires you think constantly about how you can pad out your normal hits with quick attack skills in between adrenal strikes. takes a bit of planning too and it keeps your eyes fixed on your skill bar. now with IW, once its up its tap flurry every 5 seconds and you are free to step back a bit and take a look at whats going on or do other things. its less intense.
i *dont* play IW builds because of this. i do so because it allows me to do something else. with IW builds i typically load up on energy tapping kind of skills - it keeps the energy up, nobody wastes interrupts on a warrior, it benefits me to the deficit of the person getting drained.
my axe warriors have a dirty habit of getting shutdown with blindness evasion. whether you want to admit it or not, axe warriors geared to deal damage are pretty single minded, and theres few ways to guarantee that damage if priority targets are using some form of evasion/damage reduction/or by constantly keeping you blind. and my god ive seen some teams throw blind on me alot. gives our monks a bit more of a workout. against some teams where the conditions are spreading like the plague its difficult get rid of blindness without drawing conditions. IW circumvents the need to worry about that eventuallity of me. it lets you worry about something else instead.
i tend to think about how i can exploit some of the strengths of warriors. tombs is full of cookie cutter builds. i can pretty much guess what skills most warriors are going to be just by looking at their weapon and offhand. as warriors almost never get targeted, im going to exploit this.
secondly, some good teams have kept me blinded or spammed evasion to the point where i cannot land a hit in over 2 minutes. IW hits no matter what. doesnt matter if you miss. as long as you swing. with my IW builds im not thinking of doing nothing except total damage. i did mention that my current W/Me is more mesmer than warrior. ive done a similar build as a Me/W with and without IW and in my experience, my priority as a target has noticeably increased and i find myself getting constantly shutdown and being constantly harassed by a warrior. thats just the prevailing metagame at work really.
my IW builds typically fulfill a gap in some of the teambuilds of my guilds. W/Mes are in my opinion generally an odd class to play. whatever you want to say about 'newb' bond, you have proven adequately that you are a bit of a jerk. good job.
Last edited by Fire Childe; 20-06-2005 at 02:06.
20-06-2005, 02:46 #36
Wow such harsh words for me pointing out what you were saying.
Warriors will always do more damage in melee than most anything you can think of. Its just the way it is. If they didn't, then what would be the point of a Warrior.
Micromanagement is a bad thing? It gets you into the game. If its not challenging and all you do is cast IW and click, then go do something else. Hell, stare at a wall, its even EASIER than IW and clicking. I mean seriously, your reasoning for Warriors being so hard to micromanage, is what a Warrior is all about. I really don't know what else to say on that.
If you have good monks, you won't have to worry about blinding. Perhaps if your prot monk wasn't busy keeping up Life Bonds and casting Blessed Signet he could do that for you? :lol:
I laugh that you think I'm arrogant. Anyone that plays with me, realizes I'm not. Its just so funny you guys still stand up for IW when there are 4+ experienced people here telling you, point for point, the reasons its not optimal.
You put words in my mouth and I don't like that. So, go take a gander at the 4+ other threads on IW, and see that Herthbul, TW III, and myself have commented in them. We have laid out several lists of what is not so hot about this skill, but people don't want to hear it.
So to all you guys, have fun with your IW in 4 v 4 killing all the W/Mo's. I hope it makes you proud. We tried to tell you and tried to tell you nicely. Feel free to pop into Tombs whenever you like to have your butts handed to you.
20-06-2005, 02:54 #37
Firstly, I don't think an axe warrior can even come close to competing with a IW for dps. Even with 16 axe mastery and whatever axe skills you chose, it isn't really comparable. Possibly if you use frenzy, but that could also get you killed. With an axe warrior with a combination of adrenaline skills charged you might be able to do some nice spike damage, but after that you are back to the weak normal attacks until the skills are charged again.
Secondly, since IW always hits you don't have to worry about any dodges, blocking, and blindness.
Originally Posted by dirtycash
Last edited by HappyPants; 20-06-2005 at 02:58.
20-06-2005, 02:55 #38
20-06-2005, 03:08 #39
DirtyCash you really don't get it do you? I agree with all the central points being made by Herthbul and alluded to by you and TW III but share others reaction - which is thanks to Herthbul for explaining his opinion and frustration at the obnoxious tone you and TW III use and lack of adequate (if any) explanation of your statements. You don't explain what you think you just expect others to take your words of wisdom because we should all just *know* that you are THE MAN. Reality check mate - we don't know you from Adam and if you can't explain your logic you just come across like yet another internet know it all.
This a discussion forum so how about engaging with others ideas instead of ridiculling them. I come here to learn and while I can pick up some scraps from your posts it nothing compared to how informative Herthbuls are and with you I have to switch off my sensibilites which are telling me this guy is being a ****.
20-06-2005, 03:48 #40Originally Posted by artyparty
Keir M :
You see this post above? You see that? Its the 3rd post of this thread. Guess what its illuding to? The fact that this has all be discussed in ANOTHER THREAD where I made informative and meaningful posts. You are only coming into the conversation at the 1/2 way point. So don't start popping off.
And what do you know.... 1 of them is still on the 1st page of the Mesmer section. Don't jump into this not knowing the other threads, where we blatantly pointed out its weaknesses. These people decided to make a new thread about the same damn topic, and ingore what we had to say. So stop praising Herthbul for putting out points. Yes he did and he agrees with me, but myself and TW III did so long ago. They just want to drag it out.
Take your whopping 14 post count, nearly 1/3 of which is in this thread and well.....
I rest my case.