Okay here goes:
We all know that each classes are equally lethal and useful. Numerous debates and comparisons have been made to prove that they're all equally important and balanced. Yet, a while ago people often discounted one class or another as being useless (some still do). Part of the reason why this may be is that while they were playing the PvE portion, they ran up against mobs or a certain class that were either lethally impressive or laughably useless to the point where we immediately say 'So-and-so was pathetic against me. All people of that class must thus be also useless.'
So this is what I'm trying to find out. Do you feel that certain classes are poorly represented by mobs in PvE? For instance, you were playing about and all the necros were casting skills that could be potentially useful but never following up with the killer combo (or not having other classes to carry out that combo). Therefore, you never perceived them as a notable threat. Or was it silly elementalists that kept spamming spells despite you countering them easily each time? Well, voice your opinions.
Just bear in mind that although people might feel that griffons may be blindly stupid for not countering enchantments, pure-warriors do not have that option either. Don't hold it against them for not grouping up with other classes. However, if you feel that they COULD have used another Warrior skill to amplify their effectiveness, then by all means choose them as the poorest form of representation for warriors.
My money's on Necros though. The only necro mobs that I don't regard as a minor annoyance are the SF necros and probably Lord Timot. The others just don't have that good skills with them to pose much of a threat (although I could be forgetting a few).
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08-01-2006, 08:29 #1
Which class is represented worst by mob AI?
08-01-2006, 15:25 #2
Difficult to say... it varies widely. Skeletal Bonds are the stupidest monks Ive seen in the entire game, while some of the Ele's and Mesmers are quite stupid (casting mark of trogdor then switching targets, casting empathy on the Mo/x before the W/x !!).
Some Warriors are *absurdly* simpleminded and predictable. Most are only a threat due to their high level and weapon mastery - after you have their simple AI figured out they are drop like flies (even SF/FOW/UW Warriors).
Rangers win my vote though.
Trying to cast Healing Spring while you are being focus fired by a MM = hillarious.
08-01-2006, 16:27 #3
Yes, it depends on the monster type.
For instance: Charr mesmers are plain dumb, Stormriders or the floating eyes or the mindblades from the UW are a better representation of what mesmers are capable of.
Or forest minotaurs (dumb) vs. minotaurs from the desert (not quite as dumb) as different representations of the warrior class.
Overall though, I think that Rangers are generally represented worst by the monsters: Yes, a horde of skeleton rangers or maguma spiders or summit rangers or flamespitters can be devastating. But when you grab any ranger boss and have a look at his skill setup with a signet of capture, you're in for a shocking surprise: All of their builds suck. Look at Valetudo Rubor: Flame Trap, Great Conflagration, Troll's... wtf.
Also, there is only one ranger boss around who's using beastmaster skills at all (Thul the Bull), and that one is even funnier than the rest of the lot: Melandru's Strike, Ferocious Strike, Troll's... he usually has no pet at all, so he can spam Troll's Unguent. Yay, way to go.
08-01-2006, 16:49 #4
I have to disagree on the necro thing. The Ancient Skale in FoW make me quake in my boots. (of course, they're cheating by having TWO elites on bar, Grenth's Balance and Life Transfer but still...)
As far as intelligence goes, all mobs are equally guilty of being stupid about picking targets. In FoW or SF, always targeting the dude holding the keg/gear/book instead of those actually doing damage.
Also by targeting low-health and low-armor characters first (assuming no one is holding a book) is what enables small parties with an invinci tank to take on some of the hardest areas of the game. A human player would quickly realize that the 55 hp monk has no skills that could damage him and switch to the squishy necro casting SS all over the place. But not aatxes... they will beat their heads against that prot spirit AND punish themselves to death while the necro stands 2 ft away.
However, I tremble to think that the next AI update might be that monsters stop punishing themselves to death... Mesmers will have it even harder getting in groups.
09-01-2006, 11:17 #5
I probably have a slanted perspective from playing too much solo and/or with extremely small parties, but Warriors seem kind of dumb-ish. They all focus on one aspect of warrior-dom, whatever it may be, and just attack the nearest target. If you know how to draw them right, they should never be any problem at all. Arguably, this is what warriors do, but they could at least mix it up a little. Change targets randomly every once in awhile. Sure, focus fire is more effective a lot of the time, but when the target has Life Bond, Barrier, Healing Seed, and gawd knows what else on it?
Disclaimer: THIS IS NOT AIMED AT WARRIORS. THEY ARE A FINE CLASS.
I think this is just because warriors are not very threatening as a class without some intelligence behind them. You could say this is true of any class, but Rend Enchantments will ALWAYS mess someone up, as will stacking Maelstroms or Meteor Showers, several ranged interrupts, Spiteful Spirit, or whatever else they happen to be throwing out. As long as one acts intelligent around the warriors, they really can't do much. They can focus fire, take (or dodge) some hits, or use some extremely limited AoE (think Cyclone Axe). That just isn't all that dangerous to most players. Disrupting Chop is only mildly annoying if one isn't soloing. But really, all of the AI is pretty bad. It's just that the other classes have randomly destructive skills, and warriors have...attacking.
I'd have to go with Monks as the "best" (read: most annoying) enemy class. If you aren't packing a Mesmer, (and I'm usually not--soloing) every Monk skill equipped undoes whatever you spent the last ten seconds doing. All they have to do is point and click. It doesn't even matter who they point at, since eventually there will only be one target left, and it WILL be the right one.
Just for kicks, though it's been done, let's toss henchmen into this analysis. I'd go with Dunham as the worst there (which is probably where a lot of the "Mesmers are worthless" crap comes from--I don't know why they don't look to high level enemies for their examples). He is the stereotypical Bad Mesmer™. As much as people complain about the various Monk henchmen, they're actually pretty good. Sure they attack stuff, and heal the wrong person occasionally, but at least they aren't doing some of the stuff I've seen actual people doing with their Monks. Orion is pretty bad, though. He always firestorms what you are attacking, which is usually the guy in front that you pulled the group with. You know the one. The one that dies when he's halfway through casting.
09-01-2006, 12:06 #6
09-01-2006, 12:41 #7Originally Posted by Cérilia
With some mean interrupts like CoF and Power Spike or Clumsiness or a nasty Elite he would already make a far better impresssion ..
09-01-2006, 16:17 #8
Ooooh, speaking of the henchies...
They are all bad representations of what the classes can do. :D
- Stefan shows us a sword warrior who does not even cause bleeding
- whatever Thom and Devona do, it's certainly not as efficient as warriors can be.
- All warriors henchs don't know when to use "Charge!" (I've been standing infront of those lava pits, waiting for the "charge!" in vain...)
- All the warrior henchs show us the dreaded "lets aggro all the mobs at once"-syndrome when you're trying to pull out one mob out of that cluster of 4 monster mobs accumulated in one spot
- The tanking mentality of the healers
- Resurrections during the battles
- Protective Spirit as a way to heal the minor damage that my necro causes to herself to keep the fiends alive instead of using it during battles
and the rest
- Blood ritual on the warriors? way to go, Eve & Claude
- Blood ritual when it's killing yourself? Excellent idea!
- Interrupts are not needed in a mesmer and ranger build? Well done!
- Spamming distortion until the energy is gone? Clever!
- Not helping the monks during the battles by using the res signet on one of the dead monks? Clever: it's better than Mhenlos stands 8 seconds on the corpse of Lina in the lava, restoring her life, while we're getting hit by Cairn the Relentless, 3 ettins, some jade bows, or a couple of lava imps indeed.
- Firestorms are really the best choice for elementalists these days, indeed indeed. Even better when we're in Hell's Precipe and fight all these fire critters. And it's so much fun to make a boss retread further and further from the firestorm until we're right in the middle of the next mob.
Personally, I loathe Orion and Cynn most of the lot. They're a danger for the team to take along.
09-01-2006, 17:32 #9
Wow, I totally diverted that thread. Let's hear it on the monsters, as well.
10-01-2006, 00:37 #10
About the henchmen
Warriors-up to the sourthern shiverpeaks [the option no longer becomes available] i quite often leave the warrior hench out in full hench teams-makes aggroing much more simpler.
Monks-They res in the middle of battle-now while they are ressing the enemy mobs kill off two hench then kill the newly ressed hench monk the second he/she is ressed/try having alesia and a dead 55hp char-she resses them-then they die a sec later as chat is filled with "alesia keep trying you might get it"
Mesmer-no interupts/spamming distrotation-he isnt even taking damage
Ranger-lack of interupts but has other uses
Necro-i ahve found blood ritual useful in the past-only complaint is on how they use it-ie spamming it till they [in mineral spring claude would spam himself to death-alesia would abandon her healing duties to res him-he would die again-keep repating-lucky i was monk myself and kept the other hench alive
Ele-My favourite combo is fire storm-enemy mobs runs into other unaggroed mobs-warrior hench follow-death [due to fire storm and many unaggroed mobs it took me half an hour to kill a mesmer boss [mursaat] in ring of fire-firestorm-i run the other way in order to stop hench aggroing more mobs and get the boss back into position-by the time we are back to hitting on it, its natural regen had healed back the damage the hench had done since last time firestorm had scattered it]
For these reasons i find the average pug is better than the hench-yet i end up using hench for the lesser done quests and skill capping
although the most annoying thing atm is err=7 has got really bad for me-im getting one every half hour now [no missions-no tombs-no gvg for me]