Maybe not, they could have used boats, in kryta sailing to orr across what is now the sea of sorrows. also a good question is if they passed through the northern shiverpeaks without any interference from the dwarves... nothing is said about the dwarves fighting charr...Originally Posted by Yozhura
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17-01-2006, 22:23 #61
17-01-2006, 22:39 #62
There had to have been some way they were able to get through the southern mountain wall from Ascalon to get to Orr. AT the same time they would have gone through the Northern or Southern Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta. Again, we hear nothing regarding if the Dwarves, Summit or Deldrimor encountered them.
17-01-2006, 23:17 #63
Long story about how I view the GW plot...
Very cool research, Erasmus. With Gaile's post hinting that there may have been a pattern there after all, I think you guys are on to something.
Now, my view on the story of Tyria is this...
*MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE END OF THE GAME*
(Many things are IMO IMO IMO, for the records.)
The Charr worship the Titans, which hints that they knew of the Fire Gods. The Mursaat effigies we find once in a while, in Ascalon, are to me a sign that the Charr knew of the enemies of their gods, and the burning statues were a symbol of the Mursaat's destruction by the Titans.
We often wonder about what everyone else wanted, but what about the Charr? What did they want by suddenly invading half of the known world? I believe it was their plan to free the Titans, knowing they would need the magic hidden away in the other countries. Hence why the Charr advanced through Ascalon before defeating that kingdom, why they advanced to Kryta and to Orr.
Kryta and the Mursaat
In Kryta...The citzens of Lion's Arch were almost defeated, until the Mursaat came to destroy the Charr, with a huge success. The White Mantle was soon created to serve the Unseen Gods (remember, those who had not Ascended couldn't see the Mursaat, so they were really "unseen")
Instead of going to wherever they came from, though, the Mursaat stayed in Kryta, and sought control of at least two Bloodstones, using them to keep the Door of Komalie closed. In fact, they made their strongest base at the most dangerous place in Tyria, right inside the Ring of Fire, so to better keep the Door closed.
Then, the Mursaat used the White Mantle to kill as many Chosen as they could find, using their souls to power the lock on the Door of Komalie. The fact they killed specifically the Chosen hints that the Mursaat knew of the Flameseeker Profecies - in fact, considering how the Seer knew of them as well, it's not a surprise to see that the Mursaat had heard of the profecies.
Now, why did the Mursaat bother to interfere in Tyria at all? Wouldn't it have been easier to just avoid all along? I believe there are many possible explanations for this:
1) They wished to help the people of Kryta and Tyria. Yes, help. Without them, the Charr would have destroyed Kryta, and it's likely the Titans would have been released, destroying what remained of the world. The Mursaat helped to protected Tyria, both by defeating the Charr and by keeping the Titans locked away...Although, the later had a cost, to kill some innocent Chosen once in a while. What is better, though? To let everyone die, or to kill a few and save the world?
2) They were afraid. The Flameseeker Profecies told of their destruction (as the Seer told us). So it wouldn't be a surprise if the Mursaat tried to stop the Profecies, first by preventing the Charrs (who were minions of the Titans) from destroying Kryta, and then by killing the Chosen (the ones with potential to Ascend and then see the Unseen Ones). If they had just ran away, though, it would have been wiser...
3) Both of the above. The Mursaat were worried both about their own survival and about the Titans, their ancient enemies, so they acted to both prevent their release on Tyria and to stop their own demise.
This makes me believe that the Mursaat were not "evil". They killed the Chosen, yes, but did so to save the rest of the world and themselves. We, the players, never get to see their point of view until it's too late, and the Titans are released.
Orr and the Vizier
So the Charr left some of their forces in Ascalon, and went to Kryta and Orr. The Mursaat defeated them on the former, and on the later...They were killed, thanks to the power unleashed by the Vizier.
Now, did the Vizier did this on purpose? All we know is that he was an expert magician, living in one of the most culturally advanced places in Tyria, so it's likely he knew about the Flameseeker Profecies. But did he really try to destroy Orr, or was this an accident? The game's Lore tell us how the Vizier used dark magic hidden below the great capital of Orr to stop the Charr, but it is not said if the resulting explosion, later called the Cataclysm, was what he wanted to do.
Most importantly, has the Vizier always been the Lich, or did his transformation result of the destruction of Orr? Considering the game's Lore, that hints how the dark spell twisted the Vizier, and what we know of Orr (a place rich in magic and knowledge), and the remains of Orr (the undead army that was born after the destruction of the empire), I believe the Vizier was a human being before the Cataclysm.
But was he evil? The Lich was, considering how he wanted to take control of the Titans and then rule the world...But what about the Vizier? All we know is that he defeated the Charr, destroying his home in the process...I think (IMO IMO IMO) that the Vizier wasn't "evil". He did what he thought would save his country against an invencible enemy, lost control of the powers he unleashed and was then twisted both physically and mentally.
Ok, so who are the bad guys? The White Mantle were helping the gods that defeated the Charr and saved Kryta. The Mursaat were protecting Tyria against the Titans. The Shining Blade was trying to defeat the "murderous" White Mantle, without knowing how they were actually saving the world.
The Charr were trying to bring their gods back from their prision. The Titans sought freedom. And the Lich...The Lich wanted to kill everything, but then again he had been twisted by black magic.
So, in the end, I think "evil" doesn't describe most of the characters in Guild Wars. Many were misguided, as the players were, and the Lich was the closest to evil we found (despite how I think we was more sick than evil)...So I don't think it was a matter of black or white.
18-01-2006, 01:31 #64
But someone or something DID gave the Charrs the power to destroy the Northern Wall no? We have YET to identify this "source".
Lets say jvxmtg is right and the Vizier was the Lich all along and he singlehandedly planned the invasion/destruction of Orr and Ascalon right from the start(including staging his "oops I destroy Orr by mistake"), because he REALLY IS the Flameseeker(the main mastermind/bad guy of chapter 1)...it would make sense no?
18-01-2006, 01:36 #65
Erasculio excelent review of the storyline i think you may be on to something.
there is just one thing that bothers me (i admit itīs just a detail ) is that the prophecies say that the chosen open the gate of komaly right? so why would the mursaat worry about the charr? unless there can be charr chosen! or if the mursaat realy didnīt knew the prophecy completely or even entirely!
But if the charr realy worship the titans (that i believe is not yet set in stone, albeit the fact they fight alongside the titans is a very strong argument) it brings a new set of problems:
-The titans can be controled by the scepter, that means they arenīt a true "race" of tyria but a artificial "army".
-if so who created them?
-why would the titanīs creators try to convince the charr that the titans were gods?
But i think that the most important part is (and i apologise for repeating myself) the conection of all this mythology whith the one in the cristal desert (rise and fall of the elonians), if some connection were to exist many questions would be solved. but in there iīm way out of my league...
18-01-2006, 05:34 #66
Did anyone ceck out the area where they did the ritual for the Searing? In pre you can go there and kill all the charr (causing the searing not to happen but it happends anyway)
Maby the charr had the power themselfs and had to sacrifice alot of there most powerful mages thats the impression I had at first, need to go back and take a good look...
18-01-2006, 07:07 #67
I was thinking a similar thing... that the Mursaat might actually be trying to save the world, rather than destroy it (which would make the Seers appear rather sinister in wanting to destroy the Mursaat )
However in the quest Blood and Smoke Dark Oak calls the Mursaat carrion birds...
I really hope that all these loose ends are tied up in Factions....
18-01-2006, 07:27 #68
Forgive me if i'm mistaken (i often am), but i always thought the power of the Scepter of Orr was to summon the Titans from/through the magic of the Bloodstones.
The Mursaat wish to prevent this, so they keep the keystone sealed up, and help/use the White Mantle to keep the Kryta one sealed up through the sacrifices.
The destruction of Orr could have been caused by the lich (or whoever) summoning titans from a bloodstone somewhere around there. This would also explain why the Charr wanted to get to Orr so badly, if its true they worshiped the lich/titans, they would want to seek them out. Though, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to kill off a bunch of your loyal worshippers like that...
Of course, a "searing" -like magic might be used to prevent the lich and his charr from obtaining the scepter and summoning their gods, and any survivor of this Orrian Cataclysm could have then hidden the scepter from the lich in Kryta, under the watchful eye of the Mursaat and White Mantle.
The Seer, though, i think he just wanted the Mursaat dead because they were mortal enemies. Maybe he's (it's?) allied with the lich, i couldn't say, but the destruction of a race his entire people died off trying to kill is justification enough for his helping you, imo.
18-01-2006, 08:23 #69Originally Posted by Rob Van Der Sloot
Of course, he didn't expected that the same chosen ones were able to defeat him and closing the door once the titan army were under his control.
Maybe Glint kept for herself the last few verses of the prophecies....
18-01-2006, 13:03 #70
Erasculio and Hellcat are on the right track I think. The only thing that's still missing is solid proof who gave the power of the Searing to the Charr, how the Charr made it to Orr, and how the forgotten fit into all this.
The Seer and his kind seem more evil by the minute. I am now quite convinced that the Mursaat were indeed not as evil as Glint made them out to be. The Seer was most likely on the same side as Glint.
But how did the Charr make the Searing happen? I assume they continued to worship their "firegods" as usual. In the presearing movie we see them around a large shrine, with an odd cup with a blue flame. The cup looks a lot like the cup we see the "Flamecarriers" carry in one of the bonus missions. This seem to indicate that perhaps there really wasn't anyone who gave them this power. Perhaps they really did it by themselves, and could probably do it again through the power of their "firegods". Since the Charr worship the titans, it is very likely that in the past these titans used to walk freely. Perhaps in some long forgotten war with the mursaat? It would explain why the Charr also have effigies of burning mursaat. If there really was a war between the titans and the mursaat, then there would have been plenty of grilled mursaat to be seen. Still, we now know the titans are no gods, but merely a creation. So who created them? The forgotten? The Seer and his kind?
And how did the Charr get to Orr? They are by no means a seafaring race. We never ever see them with boats, so did they make it across the Shiverpeaks?
About the Lich, I think Erasculio is right to assume that the Vizier wasn't evil at first. From what I gather from the lore, the dark magic consumed him, turning him into a powerful undead being. Orr was then destroyed, and it's inhabitents were also turned into vile undead. As we all know undead drop "Decayed Orr fragments". So it is pretty clear that the people of Orr were turned into undead by the magic the Vizier unleashed.