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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eratimus
    Yes, great work! Something else that is quite a find. See the large glyph in the first of your image? Notice it is exactly the same one as the one located in the Underworld.




    This is screenine for UW. note eye symbol on pilars

  2. #12
    Yes, it would seem the style of eye glyph can be found in both the UW and on the small pillers next to the ring of Janthir glyph in the Divinity Coast area. I wonder what the connection is.

  3. #13
    Small spelling error: the shin guards are called "greaves".

    Also, I'd suggest that the temple of Balthazaar in Maguuma was, perhaps, built before the Mursaat journeyed to the desert and ascended. It seems odd that a race that has successfully raised itself nearly to the level of the Old Gods would still erect a shrine to one of them. I would expect them to do so in the desert itself immediately after ascending if they were to do it at all.

  4. #14
    Snarglesnarfle
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    Wow, this is really amazing, especially about the part of the eye. I've just got a few questions

    1) Why have the Charr stopped attacking Kryta?
    2) If the Mursaat have helped the White Mantle defeat the Charr, then why do the Charr appear to be worshipping them with those burning effigies?
    3) Lastly how did Saul D'alessio actually die? I'm having trouble believing that he and a small group went into Charr territory willingly and that they got so readily ambushed.

    This is the only answer I can think of- The Mursaat were playing the Charr and the Humans against each other. The facts seem to be that about the same time the Mursat send Saul to Kryta back to get followers is around the same time Charr attack. When Saul gains power and actually "wins" against the Charr, the Musaat tell the Charr to leave Kryta alone, because that is where the White Mantle are finding and killing the chosen. The only other place that chosen could possibly be is in Ascalon, and that is where the Charr continually assault. Again this is the Mursaat working both sides. Finally, because Saul D'alessio is no longer needed or wanted by the Mursaat, they eliminate him, using the Charr.

    Food for thought I hope. Perhaps some deep looking in Charr territory would lead to some answers about the Mursaat.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius

    Can you give me a more specific location? Are you, perhaps, refering to the Temple of Grenth? I've been trying to get out to look at it, but its.....surrounded by raging hordes of high level monsters, and I have been unable to get out there.
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    I've taken a trip to the temple of Grenth in south Lornar's Pass and conclude that they were built by the same race or at least using the same style.



    Outside of the Temple.

    As you can see the style of the building is the same as the temple found in the jungle. As well as that you can clearly see the eye, possibly the Mursaat's emblem, adorning the walls on diamond shaped stone blocks.



    Outside the temple the eye emblem again, positioned in the same place as it was in the jungle temple.



    The two images are of one pillar but two different sides so that the runes on it can be seen easily.

  6. #16
    The only Mursat effigies I've seen are right outside Frontier Gate, they look cool.

    Perhaps the Charr erected them out of fear after the Mursaat handed them their a*s in Kryta. Learnt their lesson and stopped trying to invade the green, green grass of Kryta.

  7. #17
    Hmm, this is locations of three temples of the gods. I wonder where the rest are;

    1) Temple of Balthazar in the Magumma Jungle
    2) Temple of Grenth in Lornars Pass
    3) Temple of Lyssa, Ice Cave; Mineral Springs

    I'm not sure if the temple of lyssa counts, Grenth's and Balthazar's temples share a unique design, lyssas doesn't, maybe because lyssa just isn't like that, maybe because it's not THE temple of lyssa. But I do know now I'm going to look for the rest.

  8. #18
    good work but unfortunely im going to have to throw a few wrenches into your lore..

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius
    They use the Eye of Janthir in order to determine the identities of the Chosen and then sacafice these Chosen on the Bloodstones in order to keep the soul batteries charged to keep the Door of Komalie closed
    This issnt 100% correct...the main reason they kill the chosen is to stop the flameseeker prophecies. Killing them on the blood stone turns the souls of the slain into energy that the mursaat use to create their crystal buildings(hence the blood red color of their buildings). Realize the boodstones contian within them the unstoppable magical power of a certian element. so why would they need to recharge the batteries for something like that.. the boodstones where made to seal the power of the magic within them forever and not all of them have been found since they errupted from the volcano at the fire islands. so how are they being kept sealed without sacrifice?



    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Antonius
    III: The Temple of Balthazar in the Maguuma Jungle
    This entire article has several flaws in it... first off what you are talking about is on of the five temple of the gods hidden around the world. It was a createtion of the Gods not of the mursaat. I actualy think you cant find the city of the mursaat yet on the map since if you realize if the blood-stone is in northern Magmurra why would they build their city soo far south? youd think theyd build their city nerby the boodstone.. my guess is that the city of the mursaat is north of bloodstone fen along the lake. The entire Structure of the temple is the "Gods Structure"(as i call it) witch is the structures created by the gods of tyria. I have only found these structures in four places. The temple of Balthazar(in magmurra), The Temple of Grenith(in Shiverpeaks), Heroes Acent(In the battle isles), and Finaly The Underworld(west of the Ice Wastes) They all have the same symbols you mention and its obvious the Mursaat didnt make them..

    I never notticed the similarity, nice find! Indeed the Mursaat are Acened..As the Mail lore says The Forgotten where once the caretakers of tyria but left to the Crystal Desert once humans started to run the show. Eventualy the Forgotten meet up with Glint and agreed to protect glint. Secondly They found the Mursaat armors and magicaly created them

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio
    What I'm curious about is how the Mursaat knew of the Titans. I wonder if they realize what was behind the Door, or if they just knew it was something that could kill all of them, and the world itself.
    From what Ive seen the Mursaat knew what was behind the door because they made the door! they Also knew of the flameseeker prophecies and knew if you ever made it to the door it would be opened and the titans would be set free. They where stopping the flameseeker prophecies by the only way they knew they could...killing all chosen.


    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    1) how did mursaat come to possession of Jades? Are Jades a race allied with them, are they animated constructs (like golems), or (as they can float) are they "converted" mursaat (maybe life lenght enchancing procedure ...)?
    It was alrdy said in previous lore that the Jades are Constructs of the Mursaat.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    2) Why didnt we feel their influence earlier if they indeed have city in jungle?
    Because they dont like to interfeerr personaly theyd prefer to send the white mantel to stop you...and at the time they didnt see you at very mutch of a threat..That changed after they found that you stole the Septer of orr and are with the Vizer on your way to acend.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    3) Where is that city located? (was temple of bathazar entrance? there are white mantle camps nearby so it can be ... )
    Its unkown where the city of the mursaat is..

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    4) Why didnt characters get levitation ability upon ascending? what about those secrets revealed, why didnt we learn anything about gods? Were our characters granted only part of ascension? (seeing other ascended regardless of other influence, nothing else)
    I think acention has a diffrent affect on each race. Also I think we dont realize what we can do now that were acened(acended powers?)...



    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    5) Whats with wings? did they grow them on ascension or what?
    If you nottice the echanted armors they have wings. think they always had them, weither they worked or where merly an reminats of evolution is unkown.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    5) What about Spectral Agony, was it granted by ascending, if not, what is it? Maybe it was weapon designed against seers that happens to work on us too?
    The Later sounds more logical, I think it was a form of magic the Mursaat Developed for combating the Seers.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    6) Who ARE seers and WHY do they hate mursaat? Seers seem to float like mursaat, but they look a lot less human that mursaat, while somehow similar to them.
    Unkown...We dont have enough info on the seers..

    Quote Originally Posted by spne
    Now, about the Mursaat. We all know of the great cataclysm event that happened on Crystal Desert. I was thinking about a possible Mursaat role on this cataclysm. Using the human behavior they could show them a way to kill each other and perhaps prevail on the ascencion trial, but knowing about the human greed, the mursaat could prevent the flameseeker prophecy to happen.
    The Mursaat had nothing to do with the Cataclysm, as the Lore said The Cataclysm was caused by the vizer by casting a forbidden spell he found in the Catacombs of Orr. Also I belive the Mursaat found a way to acend far before humans trying it...the human attemps happend only recently.. and I fact I think the groups trying to acend died when they lost support from orr.


    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    Im not versed about Margonites, but is it possible that mursaat were margonites?
    This has alrdy been disproven. The Margonites where human, and they failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ostriig
    1) I'll admit the story is kind of blurry in my mind, it never managed to catch me thoroughly enough. I was under the impression though, that both the Mursaat and the Seer's race were not native to Tyria. Something the Seer says in the Iron Mines dialogue? I don't know, I might be totally off, was hoping someone could clear this up for me.
    The Seer in Iron Mines did say they came from a long way. this does make me belive that the seers and mursaat may still be at war in the West(or somewhere else not on the map).

    Quote Originally Posted by ostriig
    2) You could say I'm nitpicking here, but in the screenshot I don't see any evidence to support the idea that the Mursaat can't walk. It appears to be that the greaves don't go up as high as the knees, ending a bit below them instead. Could you detail on your screenshot?
    actualy you are probly right about this. I think the Greaves he is talking about is clothing. i think the Mursaat can walk. they just preferr to float


    As for the Symbol Eratimus Has found.. I dont know If its belongs to the mursaat or the Gods of tyria...but im thinking its more to the gods since its on more Gods structures than Mursaat. realize Kryta did belive in the old gods only a few years ago..it may just be a Relic from their previous religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglesnarfle
    1) Why have the Charr stopped attacking Kryta?
    the only Way for the Charr to Reach Kryta agian is to pass through the holes they made in the great wall that are currently being controled by Ascalon...If ascalon ever fell the charr would certianly set their sights on kryta next..

    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglesnarfle
    2) If the Mursaat have helped the White Mantle defeat the Charr, then why do the Charr appear to be worshipping them with those burning effigies?
    did you ask the Charr who you belived in before Blasting them? Thing was they saw the battle of the mursaat-titans a long time ago(several hundred years)...naturaly stories may become a little twisted. also the Mursaat may have not been acened yet when they fought the titans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglesnarfle
    3) Lastly how did Saul D'alessio actually die? I'm having trouble believing that he and a small group went into Charr territory willingly and that they got so readily ambushed.
    Yes this does kina throws up an conspiricy flag(He is the only one who really knew who the mursaat where)...but we have to go with the facts we know..

    As for the rest of Snarglesnarfle's post you do pose some interesting theories...I have always wondered that the searing spell was a little advanced for the charr to pull off by themeves...(Mursaat helped?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Panda
    I'm not sure if the temple of lyssa counts, Grenth's and Balthazar's temples share a unique design, lyssas doesn't, maybe because lyssa just isn't like that, maybe because it's not THE temple of lyssa. But I do know now I'm going to look for the rest.
    Chances are its not.... There are only 2 confirmed Temples in Tyira...The others must be on other contries...(I bet well find one on Cantha)

  9. #19
    Do you guys PvP? If not then I guess you didn't notice that the temples in each of you pics are exactly like the new entrance into the hall of hero's' at hero's' ascent which is in Cratha (sp?). Anyways hers what I've came up with

    1: The char worship the titans or the master of the titans. This can be seen in their effigies in both pre-searing and the one out side Nolai Academy mission. Also during the searing, a giant ball of flame reached for the heavens and then brought down a comet looking shiny material similar to what the jade bows/armor, mandibles (desert missions), and golems(desert mission for glint) are made of. This might not have been the first time a searing has happened.

    2: An evil god is not mentioned in the current lore, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. The existence of a UW with inhabitants and demons (look close enough) that actually break through the portal to the underworld in tombs is apparent that 1: either grenth is evil, or 2: there is another god who isn't being mentioned due to the fact he wasn't worshiped by the people of Tyrina (sp?). My guess its the latter and when we have to "pick a side" in faction that is what it means we have to pick a god. Also, the followers of Balthazar in the new pve tombs are keeping something from us, maybe its the existence of this evil god or a mistake they made. Either way they are highly skilled and are trying to fix the portal in tombs. Could they be one of the lost kingdoms of the desert?

    3: The staff of orr was created by the lost human kingdom of Orr and allows the lich to controll the titans and the undead? Not likely both. I believe the Lich was a superior necromance of Orr because in real life lore a lich is a necromancer who gives up his body to recieve dark powers. This greed for power may have been what caused the down fall of Orr, or perhaps Orr was at war with the Murssat and thats why the Murssat are afraid of the Flameseeker Prophecy (which obviously is about the Lich) and know about the titans.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    Intriguing, thanks for pointing out enchanter armor-mursaat similarity.

    (just OT note: maybe game developers 1st imagined enchated armors in place we now see jades and jades in place of enchater armor.)

    But there are several questions to be ansvered:

    1) how did mursaat come to possession of Jades? Are Jades a race allied with them, are they animated constructs (like golems), or (as they can float) are they "converted" mursaat (maybe life lenght enchancing procedure ...)?
    I'd like you to notice the distinctive towers the Jades spring forth from. In some places in the game, these towers are not hostile, but simply sit there. I would say that the Jades are like you have suggested, being golems. Why the Mursaat chose jade? I'm not sure, but ANet may have chosen it for its symbolism. In the Chinese culture, Jade is the material of the gods. To me, it makes sense that the Mursaat would choose this material, and that they would also "create" life. Afterall, gods create life, that's what they do. Also, note the structures the Jades come from are Mursaat-like in shape. I'd say the Jades are a construct of the Mursaat, in an attempt to make life in their image.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    2) Why didnt we feel their influence earlier if they indeed have city in jungle?

    3) Where is that city located? (was temple of bathazar entrance? there are white mantle camps nearby so it can be ... )
    The city does indeed exist, we just don't know where it is. The only information we have on it is from accounts of Saul D'Alessio. A description of the city can be found on page 42 of the Guild Wars manuscripts.

    For the sake of convience, I'll post a small exerpt:

    "Alone, broke, and lost, Saul wandered through a dense forest for several days, surviving on only roots and berries. On the fourth day, delirious with hunger, Saul emerged from the trees to see what he though was a hallucination-a city of massive towers reaching into the heavens. The architecture was asounding, and the creatures who lived here were unlike any he had ever seen..." [Guild Wars 42]

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein
    4) Why didnt characters get levitation ability upon ascending? what about those secrets revealed, why didnt we learn anything about gods? Were our characters granted only part of ascension? (seeing other ascended regardless of other influence, nothing else)

    5) Whats with wings? did they grow them on ascension or what?

    5) What about Spectral Agony, was it granted by ascending, if not, what is it? Maybe it was weapon designed against seers that happens to work on us too?

    6) Who ARE seers and WHY do they hate mursaat? Seers seem to float like mursaat, but they look a lot less human that mursaat, while somehow similar to them.
    It is possible that the Mursaat ascended in a different manner than us, the players, did. It is also possible that the levitation came later, and not as a direct side effect of the Ascension, but made possible because of it. Also, we know the Mursaat, if they ascended, ascended thousands of years ago. We, as the player, ascended like less than a year ago, if you go by what I interpert as game time. My point is, the Mursaat had a lot of time to get it right.

    As for the wings, I'm not sure if they are attached to the Mursaat, or if they are being worn by the Mursaat. Look at the Enchanted Armor/Bow, the wings on that armor are false, made of metal. This suggests it was made before the Mursaat had wings. Remember, Ascension supposedly brings out the ability of True Sight, perhaps what this meant for the Mursaat, was that they hovered and gained wings. It may be this is the image they had of themselves, or the emotional picture of the people who became the Mursaat. For instance, the way I see you, and the way you see yourself are likely very different. Perhaps for the Mursaat, the True Sight let the rest of us see them as they saw themselves.

    I can't even begin to speculate on the war with the Seers, and I don't want to because I simply have no information. Sorry. I have hypothesises, but they are not based on concrete evidence, and as this is a scientific project, I do not want to base anything simply on my own ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by zweistein

    MY Theory:

    Seers belonged to same group as Mursaat, but one group ascended as unworthy (i.e. not having chosen mark), they forced their ascension even thou Eye declined it. Im not sure wich group was it, but i bet it were Seers.

    They came out of ascension perverted, instead of wings, they got another pair of hands, while mursaat skin turned to gold, thier turned to grayish something, etc ...

    They became outcasts, propably were driven away to another world by mursaat as heretics. They led some wars from across worlds, but by now, they resulted to undecover tactits (4 seers spread over the world, aiding murssat enemies ...) they tried to controll elioden to make it weapon against mursaat, but failed and several elioden are now roaming tyria.

    just note: Seers seem to be concerned about titan situation too, they even ordered you to kill armageddon lords. maybe they were ignorant about titan freeing business, if they knew it the wouldnt help you ...

    Why did they ascend: group of that people faced titans and needed way to defeat them (magguna is close to ring of fire), led by some prophecy (i sense glint ...), they ascended and were finally able to battle titans as equal, battle was fierce, they had to take controll of each blood stone and seal it and guard keystone (in abadons mouth) to prevent breach. one bloodstone was on north, so charr seen battle ...
    I have no idea, and as I said earlier, we have no basis to make any theories on the Seers at this time. If more information is uncovered, I, or someone else, will certainly present it, and at that time, we will make assumptions, but I am very, very hesistant to make stretch guesses based only on a few sentences. If you are right about your theory of the Seers ascending, perhaps they are just at war with the Mursaat because they can be. I feel we will find out more about this in time. As for the Seers being scared about the Titans, it makes sense. If the Titans can beat the Mursaat, and the Mursaat can beat the Seers, then the Titans can beat the Seers, when faced with a common enemy that can destroy them both, it makes sense that the Seers would abandon their own quarrels with the Mursaat in order to stop the Titans. Think about it, American and the USSR were allied against the ****s in World War II, and we know how that turned out.


    Quote Originally Posted by spne
    The Mursaat, could just lend the Weapon to the Elonians and show them how to use it, knowing that they would use it against themselves and prevent them from ascending.

    Maybe the Mursaat are the third people that came to ascend with the Elonians and Margonites, and after ascencion they might feel a little bit.. overzealous about their new condition. This way, leading them to a crusade against anyone with hopes of ascending.
    I'd say that this does go along with what we know about the Mursaat. They didn't have the White Mantle at the time to harvest the Chosen, so perhaps they needed another way to charge the soul batteries. If that's the case, it would explain the extreme devestation to the Elonians, while their structures remained unharmed. As we see at the Bloodstone, the harvesting leaves solid objects intact, only harvesting the essence of the lifeform. It may be possible that WeaponX was originally devised by the Mursaat, and they tricked the Elonians into using it. However, if the Mursaat were in fact behind it, in regards to their somewhat vain nature, I'd say the weapon would have some kind of marking indicitive of the Mursaat. They tend to like to put that Eye of Janthir marking on all their things. If someone will provide an up close screen of all angles of WeaponX, maybe we can find out who created it.

    Quote Originally Posted by spne
    Even Grenth could be behind this. Or even Balthazar. The gods might just not think like human beings, or some kind of war might be raging between them.
    We know this for a fact. Remember, Winter's Day is essentially a war between Dwanya and Grenth. Perhaps other gods are at odds as well. Almost every multideistic culture has warring gods. The Egyptian, Chinese, Roman, and Greek gods were constantly warring against their own kind, for instance.


    Quote Originally Posted by ostriig
    First of all, congratulations on your work, Quintus, and thanks for sharing it. It made for a very interesting read, and it has captivated my interest. I'll be following your future studies on the matter as much as I can.

    I do have two questions to ask, though:
    1) I'll admit the story is kind of blurry in my mind, it never managed to catch me thoroughly enough. I was under the impression though, that both the Mursaat and the Seer's race were not native to Tyria. Something the Seer says in the Iron Mines dialogue? I don't know, I might be totally off, was hoping someone could clear this up for me.
    2) You could say I'm nitpicking here, but in the screenshot I don't see any evidence to support the idea that the Mursaat can't walk. It appears to be that the greaves don't go up as high as the knees, ending a bit below them instead. Could you detail on your screenshot?

    Anyway, congrats again, and good luck with your future work!
    Thank you, high praise indeed, maybe I should have a book signing

    To answer your questions, the Seer never says s/he isn't from Tyria, s/he simply says s/he travelled very far to aide us. I, personally, interperted this as some kind of extraterrestrial/extradimensional allusion, but the traders from Cantha and the Zaishen also claim to have travelled far, and we know they are just from another continent. I am excited to learn more about the Seers, just as you are.

    As for the walking, we have no evidence the Mursaat ever let their feet touch the ground. If they have a deity complex, like I suspect, they probably see it as below them. Also, when Saul D'Alessio stumbled upon the city, he saw creatures that "When they walked, their feet seemed not to touch the ground..." [Guild Wars 42] It is likely that Saul's intrusion is liken to walking in on someone getting dressed. If, even in private, the Mursaat hover, it is likely they always hover, unless sitting or something. But if you look at the Mursaat's greaves, they have a cap where the knee is/would be. Also, the boots are attached directly to the greaves and hang straight down, whereas the Enchanted have a jointed foot, which can bend. Even if the Mursaat armor allows for leg movement, it would not allow for foot movement, so the Mursaat would end up walking on tiptoe, if at all. Furthermore, I apologize for the spelling mistake, after typing as much as I did, sometimes things slip my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eratimus
    Yes, great work! Something else that is quite a find. See the large glyph in the first of your image? Notice it is exactly the same one as the one located in the Underworld.

    Great find! The Underworld tends to be a reflection of the normal world, and contains things that reflect disasters (ie, the Ascalonian style houses pre-searing). Maybe a Mursaat temple was destroyed, or maybe it is hinting that the Titans destroyed something of the Mursaat's. I'd lean towards the last one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglesnarfle
    Wow, this is really amazing, especially about the part of the eye. I've just got a few questions

    1) Why have the Charr stopped attacking Kryta?
    2) If the Mursaat have helped the White Mantle defeat the Charr, then why do the Charr appear to be worshipping them with those burning effigies?
    3) Lastly how did Saul D'alessio actually die? I'm having trouble believing that he and a small group went into Charr territory willingly and that they got so readily ambushed.
    The Charr stopped attacking Kryta because they had their furry rear ends so completely handed to them by the White Mantle that it would have been too much work to keep assaulting the area.

    "Since the end of the last Guild War and the repelling of the Charr invasion, the White Mantle have maintained a high level of military preparedness. They don't ever want to be caught off guard again, and they often keep large stores of weapons inside their temples to use in case of emergancy. It's also not uncommon for followers of the Mantle philosophy to be highly trained warriors. Fighting skills will come in handy if the day comes when they will need to once again defend Kryta from invasion." [Guild Wars 41-42]

    As I've said earlier, the Charr worship both the Titans and the Mursaat. I feel this can be explained easily. The Charr saw the Mursaat and Titans in a battle, and lacking the intelliect to explain it properly, said that the creatures fighting were gods. We already know that gods like Dwayna and Grenth fight, so the Charr probably so no problem with their fire gods fighting. In fact, in Norse mythology, the whole religion is based around gods fighting. The Charr are extremely militaristic, and I doubt they would worship a god that just sat around not fighting. If their religion is based around seeing this battle, they may interpert it as a sign to be aggressive. It fits very well with the observed and historical behavior of the Charr.

    To answer your question about Saul D'Alessio, I will quote, once again, directly from the Guild Wars Manuscripts:

    "Beaten, outnumbered, leaderless, and facing almost certain death, the people of Kryta looked to Saul to lead them out of their darkest hour. Saul D'Alessio was transformed from a messenger into the general of a great army. With their new faith and their new leader, Kryta and the White Mantle managed to push out the Charr, forcing them back over the mountains.

    Though his efforts were successful, Saul eventually lost his life fighting the war that freed the humans of Kryta. In the last offensive of the war against the Charr, Saul led his troops deep into Charr territory. His network of spies, though normally quite effective, failed him this day. The Charr were waiting in an ambush, and the beastly creatures slaughtered Saul's unit to the man." [Guild Wars 44-45]


    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglesnarfle
    Food for thought I hope. Perhaps some deep looking in Charr territory would lead to some answers about the Mursaat.
    Yes, maybe we can organize a discovery expedition into Charr territory. I'm betting we could find some answers in areas like the Flame Temple Corridor.

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