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  1. #1

    Water Skills need HELP!

    I have read much of the thread on the rebalancing of the Fire skills. Well, I read as much as I could until the flaming and personal attacks sickened me to the point that I had to quit.

    I am hoping that Water skills will get a look by A-Net. Since the AoE change my Water Ele/Mo has been pretty much useless in PVE. It used to be that Malestrom was worth using but now with the scatter effect it is all but useless except for stationary targets. I can stop the enemy from moving with slowdown but I cannot inflict significant damage.

    Since they implemented the AoE nerf would it not make sense to make the Elemental AoE skills non targeting? That way they could at least be dropped to block an enemies path and as a defensive skill.

    I don't currently play PvP but it seems to me that the buffs and nerfs seem to favor the PvP player at the expense of the PvE player. That is just my opinion and I don't want to be involved in a flame war about the virtues of either PvP or PvE.

    I know I can easily switch my attributes and play fire in order to do significant damage but I really don't like being forced into the same mold as everyone else. Water is a powerful force on earth and should have the ability to deal signifcant damage in its own right.

    I hope the powers that be will take a look at the Water Skill Branch and make some adjustments there to make Water Elementalist a viable damage dealing build.

  2. #2
    Well really ill stick with me fire. has gret AoE some skills cannot be eveded like rodgorts invocation AoE umm Mind Burn i think is AoE too

  3. #3
    personally i play earth but i have used water to. it is best for PvP but not for dealing damage mind you (and i can if used right) but for the slow effects. If runners are pissing you off use water (water trident ftw)

  4. #4
    Water is simply a PvP line, unless you have a specific PvE team willing to play along with what you do but that's gonna be hard to find. It's not because it's 'favored for PvP' or anything. Simply Water is a snaring line. The best in the game. But because of how AI works in PvE, snaring is nearly pointless (at least it's not as useful as simply straight damage). Mobs don't try to catch your casters. Enemy casters you target don't flee. So why would you snare at all? Just nuke harder.

    So Water DOESN'T need any buff (maybe a few skills here and there, not too sure which really, most of water is really solid). It provides extremely efficient snares adding decent damage overall. It's good at is, but it's hard to say that it's good for PvE. The only reason i could see someone go water in PvE is for the desire to play something different, not because it's the best option available. But PvP is another thing.

    And i think changing the nature of the line (which is snaring) to make it more PvE worthy is just a bad idea. Instead i'd rather see more places in PvE where snaring has any use.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    So Water DOESN'T need any buff (maybe a few skills here and there, not too sure which really, most of water is really solid). It provides extremely efficient snares adding decent damage overall. It's good at is, but it's hard to say that it's good for PvE. The only reason i could see someone go water in PvE is for the desire to play something different, not because it's the best option available. But PvP is another thing.
    Hex helm aside (which it is now), how is water more efficient than even the newly nerfed cripple shot ranger? Especially with how condition removal has been changed.

    I would say that Deep Freeze is probably the only decent snaring skill that water has currently and even that is over priced. Water needs drop in recharge and probably costs. But then again, nearly all of the elementalist skills need that as well, and I doubt we will see that any time soon. Instead we get new multi line skills! Hurray!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tralus
    Hex helm aside (which it is now), how is water more efficient than even the newly nerfed cripple shot ranger? Especially with how condition removal has been changed.

    I would say that Deep Freeze is probably the only decent snaring skill that water has currently and even that is over priced. Water needs drop in recharge and probably costs. But then again, nearly all of the elementalist skills need that as well, and I doubt we will see that any time soon. Instead we get new multi line skills! Hurray!
    Maybe because a cripple target can still move around decently while a water hexed target is all but stopped?

    I played water (a pretty weird build which i don't feel like giving out tough) in GvG AND tombs nearly every game last week, and i can tell you how priceless it is and so uncomparable with Crippling Shot.

    I could hold a ranger flag runner using Dodge and Storm Chaser for 60 seconds 5 sec from flag stand on my own until we got a Morale Boost and one of our warriors could come and kill him. I just chained slowed him, and body-blocked him perfectly alone, the guy couldn't take one step forward. You can't do that AT ALL with Crippling Shot. When the guy uses Dodge, you won't be able to body-block him alone. In relic runs in HA i can do the same.

    Also, in splits when a team is fleeing, one Deep Freeze will stop the full team. Crippling Shot, by the time you shoot, any1 having a speed boost will be well out of range and they're home free.

    Crippling Shot can be strafed at max range too pretty easily, you can get out of LoS, you can blind the ranger, etc. Water hexes? Nope.

    I use usually 3 skills, Shard Storm for straight single targets (usually i use that to slow warriors targets so they can't be kited even when Crippled), Ice Spikes for decent speed slow on a few targets (usually, that's on the warriors running behind our monks or that jump on me, since they're usually packed 1 Ice Spikes allows for everyone to reposition and stop getting hit for 6 seconds, EVEN if you're Crippled yourself) and lastly Deep Freeze when i want to do AOE damage as well as slowing a big area. If there is one single target i want to keep slowed (say flag runner), i can alternate Shard Storm, Ice Spikes, Shard Storm, Deep Freeze, Shard Storm, Ice Spikes... over and over and target will never get out of ice.

    The damage you add is decent overall. Sure it's not comparable to any DPS line, at all, but 80 damage in Area AOE still hurts the other team (possibly more by preventing any kiting for 10 sec than the straight damage, but the damage still helps), and 70 damage on a target that already has warriors on its back can score kills, i have more than once.

    And while Water are hexes and can be removed as such and suffer from a few hex weaknesses (NR, Holy Veil on target, etc), overall they're more reliable from my experience than Crippling Shot. Crippling Shot also requires freaking high Marks and Expertise now, otherwise the duration or energy cost will get to you in no time.

    Not to mention Crippling Shot is an elite, none of what i stated yet is elite. Combine Water Trident with water slowing hexes, and you can prevent people from moving very, very well. But i prefer EProdigy with water usually, because water has extremely good skills not causing exhaustion. Most of the other line's most useful skills all do (Meteor, Gale, OFlame, EQuake...) which makes Prodigy more of a pain in long fights if you want to use any of them. With EProdigy tough, water hexes cost are meaningless as you just never lack energy.

    And Deep Freeze is really worth 25E. One of the few skills i actually believe does. For a non-elite, it's incredibly powerful considering the huge AOE.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    Maybe because a cripple target can still move around decently while a water hexed target is all but stopped?
    Aside from Mind Freeze, the difference between being Crippled and being hit with a water hex is 16%. It's siginificant but not overly much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    I could hold a ranger flag runner using Dodge and Storm Chaser for 60 seconds 5 sec from flag stand on my own until we got a Morale Boost and one of our warriors could come and kill him. I just chained slowed him, and body-blocked him perfectly alone, the guy couldn't take one step forward. You can't do that AT ALL with Crippling Shot. When the guy uses Dodge, you won't be able to body-block him alone. In relic runs in HA i can do the same.
    I can hold 2 people down nearly indefinately and still have enough juice to throw an interrupt or 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    Also, in splits when a team is fleeing, one Deep Freeze will stop the full team. Crippling Shot, by the time you shoot, any1 having a speed boost will be well out of range and they're home free.
    You want their teams to be spread out, thats how you get kills, I tag one guy (or two) and let the others dash away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    Crippling Shot can be strafed at max range too pretty easily, you can get out of LoS, you can blind the ranger, etc. Water hexes? Nope.
    I seem to have little trouble dodging Water Trident (it isn't a hex I give you that) or Shard Storm. And if you want to play the counters game (which is kind of valid in this case I guess), Interrupts play merry hell on Water Elementalists (well elementalist in general as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    I use usually 3 skills, Shard Storm for straight single targets (usually i use that to slow warriors targets so they can't be kited even when Crippled), Ice Spikes for decent speed slow on a few targets (usually, that's on the warriors running behind our monks or that jump on me, since they're usually packed 1 Ice Spikes allows for everyone to reposition and stop getting hit for 6 seconds, EVEN if you're Crippled yourself) and lastly Deep Freeze when i want to do AOE damage as well as slowing a big area. If there is one single target i want to keep slowed (say flag runner), i can alternate Shard Storm, Ice Spikes, Shard Storm, Deep Freeze, Shard Storm, Ice Spikes... over and over and target will never get out of ice.
    Or until you run out of energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    The damage you add is decent overall. Sure it's not comparable to any DPS line, at all, but 80 damage in Area AOE still hurts the other team (possibly more by preventing any kiting for 10 sec than the straight damage, but the damage still helps), and 70 damage on a target that already has warriors on its back can score kills, i have more than once.
    I think the damage is fine, even the duration (now that the silly helm is out of the way), but the costs and recharge can use a little tweaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    And while Water are hexes and can be removed as such and suffer from a few hex weaknesses (NR, Holy Veil on target, etc), overall they're more reliable from my experience than Crippling Shot. Crippling Shot also requires freaking high Marks and Expertise now, otherwise the duration or energy cost will get to you in no time.
    Even with the nerf its not as bad as you would think, although you cannot keep an entire split squad crippled 90% of the time anymore, I'm more than happy to settle for 2 - 3. As for the reliability, I give you that, some of the water hexes are unerring. Which is one the advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    Not to mention Crippling Shot is an elite, none of what i stated yet is elite. Combine Water Trident with water slowing hexes, and you can prevent people from moving very, very well. But i prefer EProdigy with water usually, because water has extremely good skills not causing exhaustion. Most of the other line's most useful skills all do (Meteor, Gale, OFlame, EQuake...) which makes Prodigy more of a pain in long fights if you want to use any of them. With EProdigy tough, water hexes cost are meaningless as you just never lack energy.
    You might also say that Crippling Shot can do what it takes 4 or 5 water skills to do. Even though water skills don't cause exhaustion, EProdigy's exhaustion does catch up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    And Deep Freeze is really worth 25E. One of the few skills i actually believe does. For a non-elite, it's incredibly powerful considering the huge AOE.
    Its powerful granted, I like to think of it as the Water version of Rodgort's Invocation and vice versa, both skills can definately use a drop in energy costs. I can see no reason for any skill outside of a near "I win button" to cost 25 energy. RI and DF are potent but they aren't that strong.

    Overall I think I came across a bit too strongly, in general in my opinion, the water line is probably the closes to what a powerful line should be out of all the elementalist line. The tweaks that it can use are minor ( if you want numbers I'm thinking -5 energy and/or -5 to 10 seconds off of recharge across the board), before the water ele can be a commanding prescense on the field.

  8. #8
    Alright, i understand what you mean. But i'm not sure i'd agree still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tralus
    Aside from Mind Freeze, the difference between being Crippled and being hit with a water hex is 16%. It's siginificant but not overly much.
    First of all, Water Hexes are 66% speed reduction, not 50%. Your target has HALF the speed of a Crippled target. It was bugged at 50% a while ago, but it was fixed. You see a HUGE difference in move speed between Cripple and Water, and trust me since i kite warriors while Crippled all the time without any trouble and can gain enough distance to use my spells reliably without them catching up. Cripple move reduction and Water move reduction aren't even comparable. Even Crippling Anguish isn't nearly as bad. You must not see enough Water in action to think it's only a small difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tralus
    I can hold 2 people down nearly indefinately and still have enough juice to throw an interrupt or 2.
    You can SLOW them. You can't truly HOLD them. There's a big difference there. If you can, with a single Crippling Ranger, prevent a ranger with Dodge to move at all, i'm truly impressed at your body blocking ability. Personally i was never able to fully bodyblock on my own someone moving at the same speed as i do for more than 5 seconds (usually less than that), and moving at 33% reduced speed for really long either.

    And at 15 Expertise, Crippling Shot takes 6E. You're likely not crippling someone for more than 6-7 seconds (and that's pure Marks-Expertise, so no lasting poison cover, no Blackout, no Distortion, etc. Kinda crappy build, and i'm sure you're not running that high expertise and marks). So you have to use 12E every 6 seconds, and you regen 6 in that time. That's not using anything else than Crippling Shot at very high expertise. How do you hold 2 people indefinitely and have energy to interrupt? It just doesn't makes sense. Even if you don't use any other skill at all except Crippling Shot, to keep 2 persons slowed at all time you'd be out of energy after 30 sec. That was BEFORE the patch where you could keep 2 Crippled forever. Cripple Shot was nerfed.

    I fully agree about Water Trident being fully dodgeable, but Water Trident should never be thrown on a target moving at full speed imo. It's really designed to work on previously slowed target, it's in the water line isn't it? Shard Storm actually works surprisingly well. It IS straffable, no doubt, but that's never what i throw on targets moving away from me and likely trying to strafe me, i use Ice Spikes or Deep Freeze for that. I throw Shard Storm usually on warrior targets as i said, because these are usually moving in a straight line away from the warriors, and Shard Storm doesn't miss that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tralus
    You might also say that Crippling Shot can do what it takes 4 or 5 water skills to do. Even though water skills don't cause exhaustion, EProdigy's exhaustion does catch up to you.
    I don't agree on Crippling Shot doing what 4-5 water skills do. With 3 water skills, not using elite, i can do what you can do with Crippling Shot but with targets slowed at half speed, often in AOE, adding damage. EProdigy exhaustion catching up to you? Without using another exhaustion skill? Hell, maybe if you run EStorage at 5, but at an EStorage of 11-13 (pretty standard, water isn't worth going above 14 anyway where you reach max slowing duration of 7 sec, so you can usually do 11-10-10 setups with Water if you need a secondary) i never EVER had exhaustion taking me to below 50-60 max E and that's in HA in some altar fights lasting for nearly 10 min non-stop. You use EProdigy once every ~25 seconds in fight (use 20% longer enchant, ofc). That means your total exhaustion scales up by about 2E every use of Prodigy. And you have something like 85-90 max E. Before you get exhausted below 35-40, which would truly hinder you, you're gonna be in a very very very long fight without any break for exhaustion to settle (in any GvG you usually have downtimes where exhaustion just vanishes. In HA, hell most maps are timed below that!).


    I tell you, try water in 8v8 a few games. Just use it, get used to it, and see how it goes. You can use a basic setup like this:

    Shard Storm, for warriors called target
    Ice Spikes, for warriors on your monks
    Deep Freeze, for AOE slow when required, good to start a fight.
    Armor of Mist, to catch target, run flag, have more armor for a reason or another (not absolutely needed, but i got good uses of it quite a few time, especially to catch up fleeing target to get in range for an Ice Spikes to the rest of my team could catch up)
    Blurred Vision
    X (usually you want a useful spammable skill from your secondary here. Good options are Shadow of Fear for serious anti-warrior since you can reuse it forever with EProdigy and 5 sec cool, Spirit Shackles can be nice but annoying cast time, etc. Blinding Flash from Air can work well too. Hell, Blackout while your skills recharge and use Armor of Mist to get in range. You can also go pure water and use Rust, it's really annoying on all the wars relying on Healing Sig if you can cover it)
    EProdigy
    Rez Signet

    With a setup like this, which you can modify a bit (it's not my usual setup all in all, but i have specific roles in the team that aren't related to snaring only), you can be a very efficient snarer. And i'm sure you'll see after a few games the huge differences between water snaring and Crippling Shot snaring.

    Btw i'm not saying Crippling Shot snaring doesn't have advantages. But i think the advantages are of having ranger interrupts along, etc. If you NEED the interrupts in your build more than the snaring, then by all mean go Crippling to have still decent snaring and interrupts along. I'm not saying water build >*Crippling ranger build. But for the snaring part, i think water is simply superior, and water offers the ability to spam spells from your secondary (or primary if you need them) along with the snaring, which in some cases are more benefic than 1-2 interrupts (but not always). I played Crippling quite a bit before patch btw and we always had one in our GvG, so i know how it was in its prime too, i'm not theoritizing on how water is superior to something i never tried.

    I don't actually think it would be balanced to lower the recharge on most of the water hexes. They snare way too hard to be spammable. Put Ice Spikes at 10 recharge, and all i'll ever do is E/R with EProdigy, SQuickness and Ice Spikes. Could keep a target at 33% move speed at all time with 1 skill alone and have 4 other slots to do whatever i want... Just like Shard Storm shouldn't be usable like a Crippling Shot by keeping a target frozen permanently with it at 5 sec recharge and 7 sec duration. And Deep Freeze only has 15 sec recharge with 10 sec duration, you can't honestly want to lower that duration and keep people in Area AOE frozen permanently?

    I could see only 3 skills truly requiring a lower recharge : Water Atunement (like all atunements, imo should be 30 so that you're not screwed in full if stripped), Swirling Aura (just like all warrior Tactics stance with 60 sec recharge lowered to 45, 60 sec recharge is just too long), and Armor of Frost (this is just a retarded skill. I don't know why anyone would -ever- use it. Horrible recharge, bad duration, +40 armor vs physical only, ends if you use Fire... just wtf is that). Frozen Burst could maybe lower to 25 seconds and that would improve it a lot, i think that's all it needs to be a truly dominant skill (because the 11 sec slow to nearby + 110 damage already makes it pretty strong, but 30 sec recharge is SLIGHTLY too long. I used it and liked it, but dropped it in the end because of bad recharge). The rest of the line is fine to me, both in recharge and energy cost. If you see another specific skill that should need a change, please tell me what. I'm not saying it's not possible, but when i look at them it all seems fair to me.

    As for Deep Freeze's 25E cost, think about it this way : It's 10 seconds duration, and it's AREA AOE. This means if you use it even remotely intelligently, that's 2 targets minimum, usually 3, that get at 33% move speed for 10 seconds. To get the same effect from Crippling Shots (well you couldn't get the same slow, but the same crippling and durations), you'd need to use 45-60E, nearly 25 even after expertise, and it's not instant like Deep Freeze is, you have recharge between shots, etc. Deep Freeze just holds everyone in an area in place, perfect for spells like Meteor Shower, Maelstrom, etc. Especially with Bull's Strike warriors in there. I think the cost is 100% acceptable considering the size of AOE. If AOE was Nearby tough, it'd be too much.

    Well... that was too long. Yet again!

  9. #9
    trevauld
    Guest
    Great post there Patccmoi. Thanks for the info : ) One question though; you didn't ever mention Ice Prison, is there something wrong with it? I mean is it inefficient in terms of cost, recharge etc.? I'm going for a semi-snare build, which is half hydro & half pyro, and I generally use Frozen Burst and Ice Prison for my snares. For the dmg part I'm using Flare + Immolate + Conjure spam. Any thoughts for improvement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patccmoi
    Alright, i understand what you mean. But i'm not sure i'd agree still.



    First of all, Water Hexes are 66% speed reduction, not 50%. Your target has HALF the speed of a Crippled target. It was bugged at 50% a while ago, but it was fixed. You see a HUGE difference in move speed between Cripple and Water, and trust me since i kite warriors while Crippled all the time without any trouble and can gain enough distance to use my spells reliably without them catching up. Cripple move reduction and Water move reduction aren't even comparable. Even Crippling Anguish isn't nearly as bad. You must not see enough Water in action to think it's only a small difference.

    .......

    As for Deep Freeze's 25E cost, think about it this way : It's 10 seconds duration, and it's AREA AOE. This means if you use it even remotely intelligently, that's 2 targets minimum, usually 3, that get at 33% move speed for 10 seconds. To get the same effect from Crippling Shots (well you couldn't get the same slow, but the same crippling and durations), you'd need to use 45-60E, nearly 25 even after expertise, and it's not instant like Deep Freeze is, you have recharge between shots, etc. Deep Freeze just holds everyone in an area in place, perfect for spells like Meteor Shower, Maelstrom, etc. Especially with Bull's Strike warriors in there. I think the cost is 100% acceptable considering the size of AOE. If AOE was Nearby tough, it'd be too much.

    Well... that was too long. Yet again!

  10. #10
    Your major problem with that is you use Ice Prison AND fire spells. Note Ice Prison's description:

    "For 8-18 seconds, target foe's legs are encased in ice, causing that foe to move 66% slower than normal. This effect ends if target takes fire damage."

    You're ending your own spell. Prison isn't necessarily bad, but it is a single target snare with a duration nearly half of its recharge. While the other hydro snares have similar duration/recharge ratios, there's a huge difference between someone unsnared for 3-4 seconds and somone unsnared for 8-15. Shard + Spikes + Deep Freeze = nearly permanent AoE snare (hex removal not withstanding), plus you're dealing out damage at the same time. With the subpar damage of most hydro skills, it's not a good thing to carry a spell that deals no damage and only duplicates the effects of your other spells, without the damage capacity.

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