GW:F -- Bring your own keg! (or, the book trick MUST go!)

[ccrazool]

Warrior/Ritualists. They're the wave of the future.

When GW:F is released, they will be the new keg/gear/torch/book tanks, and they don't even need a keg/gear/torch/book to be waiting for them to pick up! Not when they can cast any of the Ritualist "ashes" spells and create their own aggro magnet at will!

I was hoping... hoping against hope... that they would remove the "If someone is holding an item, direct all attacks at them and ignore everyone else" bits from the enemy AI when Factions comes out. I mean, Ritualists have 60 AL ARMOR -- some of these "Ashes" spells are pretty cool! A ritualist may want to carry the "Attuned" ashes around for as long as he can, for instance, as it is an amazing energy management elite. But wait, if you carry those "Attuned" ashes... EVERY monster who touches your aggro bubble will ignore everyone and head DIRECTLY towards you! EEK!!

Well, this isn't so bad if you're a Warrior! No, these fearless exploiters of poorly designed AI have been using this particular gimmick for many months now. Sorrow's Furnace, The Fissure of Woe, Thunderhead Keep... they all have items that you can pick up and hold onto to use as "aggro magnets". Warriors plan for this and adjust their builds to not depend on weapons and shields; stances, signets, shouts, etc... you've got your cookie cutter gear stance tank and you're set.

And now, with the introduction of aggro magnets that you can CONJURE YOURSELF, you can pull this trick off in ANY instance. UW! Thirsty River! Hell's Precipice! In every mission and every outpost all across the Guild Wars world, W/Ri will be the tank of choice.

This is sure to:

1. Dumb down the PvE experience to the point of absurdity
2. Create endless spam in every PvE outpost of "GLF ASH TANK"
3. Create endless "UR NOT ASH TANK? NOOB!!" remarks from group leaders to every self-advertised tank that isn't a W/Ri

and, most importantly,

4. Make every single "Ashes" skill unusable and, for all intents and purposes, suidcidal in the hands of a Ritualist primary.

Unless, of course, ANet decides to un-code this bit of nonsense AI from the game. I believe that this is the best course of action... completely eliminate the "book trick" or the "gear trick" or what will soon be known as the "ashes trick" from the game. It's absurd... no wait, let me bold that word for emphasis, it's absurd that enemies would mindlessly attack someone who is holding onto a freaking gear and completely ignore the foes that are dealing damage and healing. It always has been, and it always will be.

Before now, the main line of logic as to why the book trick should be left in was "well if you don't like it, don't use it, and it won't affect you at all". This argument no longer works when it makes a primary Ritualist see the need to completely ignore an entire line of skills, because to use them would be tantamount to seppuku. The book trick now affects everyone.

I imagine that the new argument from the gear tank apologists will be "If you don't like it, just don't use the 'ashes' skills" or even worse, "If you don't like it, don't play a Ritualist". That is, for lack of a better adjective, a pathetic response to a request to fix what is obviously a moronic AI choice.

Look guys, I know if they take it out, you won't be able to farm SF for greens as easily anymore. But try and see the big picture here. See how this AI choice wrecks an entire line of what would otherwise be pretty sweet skills.

Remember the AoE update? The reasoning behind that? "To make monster AI make decisions that were closer to the decisions that humans would make." I hope that ANet applies that reasoning to this case as well, and eliminates the "held item trick" before Factions is released.

I implore them to do so, with the utmost haste.

[Cosmic Carnage]

I certainly gave up using ashes on my Rt after the first few deaths.

Shame too as they do have some kickass effects. The aggro definitley needs fixing IMO a severe flaw.

[Seyfert]

really seems as if GW is going the WoW approach where one group has a single tank capable of permenantely maintaining aggro

[Bel Ebih]

Well, I doubt they'll change it, since there's already a "+10 armor while holding an item" armor set for the Ritualist, giving me the idea that they intend to keep the effect. Imo, they should take it away from Urns, and leave it on items from a particular area, cause I guess you could say that enemies are trying to take control of a key item, which the Ritualist urns are not. Though if they took the effect out of the game completely I would be fine with that as well, since the game will be played as it's supposed to always.

[Sol Rael]

While I do see the validity in your arguement, your closing point makes me see the validity in the AI's actions. They adjust the AI to make it seem more like a human being, and gutting the ritualist with the ashes is what a human would do, in my experience. This entire weekend, any naga groups I came to that had a ritualist, I was on it in a heartbeat, stabbin' the hell out of it. Destruction hurts, those ashes hurt, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna risk him healing someone.
All the same, your earlier points about it being auto-aggro are valid, and it will cause alot of player stupidity. I'm irritated enough when I hear someone call a B/P'er a noob because they didn't have 16 marksmanship. Exiling people for not having an entire secondary is just gonna make the current PuG problem that much worse.
So, I agree with you, this needs to be fixed in some fashion.

[Mraezk]

Its not that bad for primary ritualists. Being casters they tend to hang back outside of agro circles anyway, and especially if/when they're holding an urn.

Otherwise, I've been wanting the book-trick removed for ages. The ritualist ashes are only going to make it more widespread.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

I certainly gave up using ashes on my Rt after the first few deaths.

Shame too as they do have some kickass effects. The aggro definitley needs fixing IMO a severe flaw.

I agree. I ditched the ashes as soon as I found out. They are just not usuable at this time. Let's hope they fix it...

[ccrazool]

While I do see the validity in your arguement, your closing point makes me see the validity in the AI's actions. They adjust the AI to make it seem more like a human being, and gutting the ritualist with the ashes is what a human would do, in my experience. This entire weekend, any naga groups I came to that had a ritualist, I was on it in a heartbeat, stabbin' the hell out of it. Destruction hurts, those ashes hurt, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna risk him healing someone.
<snip!>

Fair enough. A Ritualist holding ashes is like a loaded gun. You're including Ritualists in your targeting priority based on the threat that they may represent, and that's exactly what a human should do.

However, a human will not attack that ash-holding Ritualist single-mindedly, to the exclusion of all other targets, 100% of the time, every time you get near it; you also won't magically gain the ability to comprehend other target choices the instant that Ritualist drops the ashes.

In GvG, for instance, the flag runner carries a flag. It's often wise to destroy the kid with the flag, so that you can maintain control of the tower. It would suck, though, if Guild Wars' targeting interface locked up every time one came near, and did not allow you to target anyone else but the flag runner, wouldn't it?

That's what mobs do. Woe to the Ritualist that gets too near the front lines with an urn in her hand. :(

[reciprocal]

Well, I didn't have any problems with book / keg / gear tricks as, like you've said, it's their choice whether they wanted to use it or not. People are not required to carry these things and sometimes it makes sense to target the carrier, e.g. lighting all the torches will win the round / mission for you.

I don't like ashes causing you to be the target source, though. That's just wrong because you need the ashes as a Ritualist. There's absolutely no point in giving them these ashes and then adding "Oh, btw you'll be the target of just about anything within / just without the aggro bubble". This is essentially killing them off for a class that needs to use them and making them used in the wrong way by a class that doesn't.

Therefore, I do not have any objections if they remove this gear-keg-ashes trick completely. Like I said in the previous post, I have no objections with the removal for the right reasons. This is a right reason.

[Ostriig]

[snip]

Nothing to add there, I agree. Therefore:
/sign

I went a few times as the Gear Tank in SF, at the request of my guildies. Was fun for the first 10-15 minutes, then it got boring, and stayed that way since. I'd like to go back to SF with my Warrior on his regular build again, and not feel like I'm something extra, not much needed.